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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 18 Dec 2012

Vol. 219 No. 11

Social Welfare Bill 2012: Second Stage

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The main purpose of this Bill is to give effect to some of the measures announced in the budget on 5 December. In the budget, my Department's two priorities were to ensure those in most need of assistance would be protected and that we do as much as we can to help people to get ready to return to work.

Since I became Minister for Social Protection, I have been very conscious of how crucial welfare expenditure has been in protecting the very vulnerable and minimising poverty during a time of enormous economic crisis. The remarkable poverty-reduction impact of welfare has greatly underpinned social cohesion. This is in contrast with other countries affected by the economic crisis where the consequences of increased poverty are sometimes played out violently on the streets. Social cohesion is a reason certain investors in sovereign bonds have backed the Irish economic recovery. As a consequence of social transfers in Ireland, the at-risk-of-poverty rate has been reduced by 31%. This is one of the highest reductions among all EU member states.

Welfare ought to be both a safety net and a springboard to a better future. That is why I am attempting to transform the Department of Social Protection through our Pathways to Work plan from being a mere provider of income support to an effective and engaged public employment service that assists people on the live register or otherwise far from the labour market to start their progression back to work, training or a job placement. We will be providing 10,000 new places on employment schemes next year and opening many new Intreo offices.

We will be providing more than 6,000 additional child care places for people transferring from welfare to work, with particular emphasis on after-school care. Senators will recall our discussions this time last year, particularly on lone parents, in which we stated we wanted more opportunities for people in education, training, community employment, etc. We stated we wanted to improve child care provision and discussed specifically the question of after-school care. I am very pleased we are making a breakthrough in regard to this provision this year.

In moving from a passive to an active social welfare system, we are transforming a system that has been mismanaged and neglected over many years by Fianna Fáil Governments. Recent ESRI research on jobless households highlighted the utter failure of previous Governments to introduce any meaningful reforms to the social welfare system to encourage work specifically. Jobless households are homes where unemployment, illness, disability or age mean that adults spend less than one fifth of the available time in employment. The ESRI examined working-age adults and their dependent children and found that the percentage of jobless households grew from 16% in 2007 to 22% in 2010. As such, in 2010, more than one in five people was living in a household without a working adult. For children, the findings are even more damning and alarming. In 2010, nearly a quarter of children were growing up in jobless households.

In 2010 nearly one quarter of children were growing up in jobless households and the most damning finding of all is the astonishing fact that between 2004 and 2007, at the height of the boom, the share of households defined as jobless recorded a double-digit increase to reach 15% of the total. The average across the eurozone in 2007 was just below 10%. It is important to recall, and people will remember this, that the then Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, and the then Minister and Tánaiste, Mary Harney, travelled to jobs fairs around the world inviting people to come to Ireland. The problem was they did not travel down to the local social welfare office to invite people on the live register to get back to work in Ireland. That is part of our difficulty having built up this extraordinary level, by all European standards, of a 22% jobless household rate. Allied to that is a figure that no other European country has, namely, 16% of our working age adult population are either on some kind of illness benefit, disability benefit or invalidity pension. No other country in Europe has statistics like that, again raising the most profound questions about the way our social welfare system works to help people who unfortunately have become unemployed back to work.

During the 2004-07 economic boom Ireland was one of the few countries in the EU to experience an increase in the proportion of jobless households. This occurred despite Ireland recording the highest rate of employment growth in the EU over the previous decade. At the same time the tendency of jobless households to be in poverty was reduced due to the very significant increases in welfare rates. The official data shows that in 2010, the last year for which figures are yet available, social transfers reduced income poverty by 60%, from 40% to 16%, as the full effects of the crisis were unleashed. Furthermore, if pensions are included the impact on poverty reduction rose to 68%. In simple terms, while the welfare system in other EU countries had a modest impact in reducing poverty, the Irish system's positive contribution to poverty reduction is an outlier.

The reality is entirely at variance with the opinions expressed by some other well-informed commentators. However, while the social welfare system has proven highly effective at preserving a threshold of decency for those most in need of support, it has largely failed to date in helping them into work or training to improve their prospects for the future. Instead of introducing the kind of reforms that were brought into other European countries to change from a passive to an active social welfare state, including job search assistance, education, training and skill development and services like child care, the former Government had little ambition for the unemployed and its only solution in many cases was to write a cheque. The fact is that until very recently the State was prepared to tolerate a large minority of our citizens being consigned to a life on the margins and inter-generational disadvantage underwritten by welfare payments.

This Government is challenging the way things have been done in social welfare in this State. We have greater ambition for those citizens who are unfortunate enough to be unemployed. From everything I know about the reforms we have undertaken in the past year people are delighted to be offered an opportunity, whether interning through JobBridge or participating in helping their own community in a local community employment or Tús scheme. People are so anxious to have an opportunity to contribute and, ultimately, to make themselves and their families financially self-independent.

We view each and every individual person on the live register or otherwise distant from the labour market as an untapped resource and a future employee who will participate in the rebuilding of this country and its economic recovery.

We view it as the mission and patriotic duty of everybody who works for the State to work together to transform the system for people who are in jobless households, locked out of working and simply find it impossible to get back into the stream of work, education and training to become financially independent. That ambition is the reason we are moving from a passive to an active social welfare state. The Government is asking the hard questions about our system of social welfare. Other countries have moved on. For example, the Dutch went from being called "the sick men of Europe" to the Dutch miracle by questioning the basic assumptions underpinning their social welfare system. Until the Government took office, we have never had that debate or made the fundamental decision to transform the social welfare system. By not doing so, successive Governments essentially collaborated in the destruction of human potential and the locking in of generations of disadvantaged and wasted lives. The Government will not tolerate that situation any longer. We will work every day to transform the social welfare system, not as an end in itself but because doing so will transform the lives of those living and growing up in jobless households. It should not simply be seen as social welfare expenditure but as an investment in the people and communities and their capacity to be offered opportunities in a positive way by the State. In that regard, there will be no cuts to the core weekly payment rates and we will provide 10,000 new places in employment schemes next year and open many new Intreo offices to get people back on a pathway to education, training, work experience and employment.

The Bill defers the date on which age reductions in respect of the one-parent family payment are to apply from the beginning of January 2013 and 2014 to the beginning of July in each of these years. It will also extend the period over which the transitional arrangements for the continued payment of one-parent family payment are to apply from the end of December 2014 to the beginning of July 2015. This is to provide more time for the creation of the additional child care places to which I have referred, as I promised last year in response to contributions to the debate on last year's Social Welfare Bill in this House and elsewhere. We had much expert commentary from Senators on all sides who acknowledged the importance of giving people who were parenting on their own an opportunity in life. The pieces are now in place.

Social welfare offices are being transformed not simply into payment offices but offices that help people in seeking education and training and findindg work. We have extra child care places, particularly after school care places which will be available in the next six months in conjunction with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. We also have an additional 10,000 places in the community employment, JobBridge and Tús schemes, as well as in a new scheme specifically for local authorities called the local authority social employment scheme. I wish the private sector was able to provide more jobs, but clearly there is a time lag between economic recovery and the private sector being in a position to provide more employment opportunities.

These are positive achievements. I recognise, however, that the budget also contains measures that give rise to concern. I avail of the opportunity afforded by the debate in this House to outline the reason the Government have taken these measures and to reflect on how we can best best with the very difficult situation in which the State finds itself. None of us wants to cut social welfare payments for its own sake. Howeveer, securing the long-term viability of the social protection system is a vital goal that services the interests of a society as a whole, not only those who directly benefit from social welfare payments.

How can we best secure the long-term viability of the social protection system? One aspect that we must recognise is that the amount we can spend is limited by the amount available to us. We cannot bury our heads in the sand about this. As Members are aware, the State has been spending far in excess of its revenue for several years and cannot continue to do so indefinitely. I note all the parties in this House in their pre-budget submissions actually accepted the requirements to reduce expenditure and make savings.

Much progress has been made in reducing the general government deficit with most of the fiscal consolidation required to deal with that problem implemented. However, in 2012 the deficit will still be over €13 billion, equivalent to more than 8% of gross domestic product, GDP. The deficit has to be reduced further if we are to retain any say over our affairs and, ultimately, regain our capacity to determine our own economic and social development. In that regard, the Government is committed to reducing the deficit to 7.5% of GDP in 2013, 5% of GDP in 2014, before reducing the deficit below 3% in 2015, so that we stabilise and then reduce the stock of debt. This budget is a vital part of this.

Discussions are continuing on the promissory notes and other aspects of the banking debts imposed on the State. I am confident a positive outcome will be achieved that will contribute to achieving these aims and reduce the burden on the taxpayer. While almost 30% of gross government debt relates directly to support to the banking sector, no matter what outcome the Government achieves in this area, even it were to achieve the entire elimination of all banking debt and the associated interest payments, there would still be a current deficit. Accordingly, it would still be necessary to reduce that deficit. This is the context within which the Government has had to structure the 2013 budget. Tax and other revenues had to be increased while, at the same time, expenditure had to be reduced.

I hear fairy stories from those who have met the troika claiming it says we can reduce expenditure any way we fancy. That is not the way the troika operates. Anyone who has dealt with the IMF in any country will know it is made up of a balance in both tax increases and expenditure reduction. Perhaps we should all go to meet the troika together.

I would love to go with the Minister the next time.

With the full agreement of the House.

The Minister without interruption.

We will see what happens in the North.

The Minister should stop raising this comparison. It is not relevant.

The UK Government has put forward a programme package for Northern Ireland which is infinitely more difficult.

We are opposing what the UK Government is proposing.

It is infinitely more difficult-----

We are opposing the UK Government's proposals.

Senator Cullinane does not want to hear the truth.

(Interruptions).

I wish to raise a point of order.

(Interruptions).

Order, please. A point of order has been raised.

Would it not be more appropriate for the Minister to stick to the terms of the Bill which she is introducing?

(Interruptions).

That is not a point of order. The Minister to continue without interruption.

I do not want to cut child benefit, the respite care grant or the duration of jobseeker's benefit. I know each such measure impacts negatively on those with genuine needs.

The vital goal of ensuring the long-term viability of the social protection system cannot be achieved without scaling back on some of the supports that have been provided heretofore. In last year's budget the Government announced that a further reduction of €540 million in expenditure by the Department of Social Protection would be implemented in 2013. When the previous Government left office, the national programme for recovery projected approximately €800 million in cuts for this year. On coming into office, this Government reduced this projection to €540 million and I am happy to tell Senators that after a long process of negotiation I have further reduced the figure to €390 million, which is a considerable reduction from the original targets.

The Minister deserves our congratulations on that.

A large number of social welfare recipients will find their incomes entirely unaffected by the budget because their payments have been preserved for the second year running. Weekly payments have not been cut across the board. The previous Government cut all main payments by a cumulative €16.50 per week. If a household included somebody on carer's benefit and someone else on disability benefits, the cumulative cut was €33 per week. It is essential that people can continue to rely on their basic weekly payments in order to have a sense of security about their incomes. Weekly payments will be maintained for pensioners and all those under the age of 66, such as people on disability allowance and jobseeker's allowance, with the result that expenditure on social protection will once again be more than €20 billion in 2013. This demonstrates the high priority the Government continues to give to social protection during these difficult times. Social protection expenditure will account for approximately 37% of all Government expenditure.

I understand the concerns of those affected by the measures contained in the Bill, particularly in respect of cuts to child benefit and respite care grants. I will deal with each of these payments in turn.

Child benefit is a universal payment to mothers at all income levels. I am determined that any future reform of child benefit will preserve the principle of universality. It is worth bearing this in mind given that from next January the United Kingdom intends to reduce or discontinue child benefit payments to households in which at least one person earns more than €62,000. This change will cost families with three children and at least one parent earning more than €74,000 approximately €3,000 per annum, which is the equivalent of a pay cut of €5,000. I intend to publish the report on family and child income supports by the advisory group on tax and social welfare reform in the new year. I will then bring it to the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection for a full and informed public debate on the options available for the future structure of child benefit, with specific regard to taxing, means testing and other structural reforms such as supplementary child benefit payments. I would be happy to discuss the report in this House if I am invited to do so.

The Minister is invited.

In the meantime, despite the budget reductions, our child benefit rates remain high by international comparisons. We are still above the rate that prevails in the United Kingdom and the North, where the payment for the first child is €110 per month and the rate for second and subsequent children decreases to approximately €72 per month.

The respite care grant will decrease from €1,700 to €1,375 per annum. This means the rate will still be higher than the €1,200 per annum which applied in 2006, when the construction bubble was at its peak.

I am conscious that this represents a cut for carers. However, to allow us to protect the core weekly payments that people receive, such as pensions, disability and carer's allowance, we have had to look very carefully at other additional payments, such as the respite care grant. Carers receive significant income supports, among the highest rate of income support in Europe. Carers who live with the person for whom they care also receive additional support in the form of free travel and household benefits and the annual respite care grant in respect of each person for whom they care. If a person gets certain qualifying social welfare payments and also provides full-time care and attention to another person, that person can keep the main social welfare payment and get the half-rate carer's allowance as well. That carer can also receive an extra half-rate carer's allowance if he or she cares for more than one person. Organisations representing carers made very strong representations to me at the pre-budget forum and elsewhere in regard to keeping those weekly payments intact.

The income disregard and means test for carers is the most liberal within our social welfare system. A couple under 66 with two children, earning a joint annual income of up to €35,400, can qualify for maximum payment of carer's allowance, while such a couple earning up to €59,300 will still qualify for the minimum rate. This year we will spend €771 million on payments to carers, an increase of almost €20 million over expenditure in 2011. Even after the cut in the respite care grant, expenditure in 2013 will be higher again, at €775 million. I expect the outgoing will be even higher, because of the enormous increase in the number of people applying for both the carer's allowance and the half-rate carer's allowance.

The value of the respite care grant has almost tripled in the past ten years, from €635 in 2002 to €1,700 in 2012. While it is being cut next year, a grant of €1,375 is still a substantial sum. The work of carers is recognised and valued by the Government as well as by those who receive that care. The great work that carers do, often 24 hours a day, all year around, is testament to the deep level of commitment and love that carers have, which allows people to be cared for in their own homes. The cutting of the respite care grant while the weekly carer's and domiciliary care allowance payment rates are maintained is not being done to devalue the work that carers do. The fact that the Department will spend an increased amount in 2013, €775 million, to support carers and caring shows the status that is given to the work that carers do.

Since coming to office, tackling fraud and improving control have been priorities for me. I am now introducing measures to enable the Department to recover overpayments quicker than previously. Currently, repayments are frequently made at a level of €2 per week, which means that some overpayments take years to repay, if indeed they are ever repaid. As well as providing savings, this measure will send a strong message that there is an obligation to return money owing to the Exchequer. There is an obligation on the citizen as well as the Department to ensure that only entitlements due are received and what is not due is returned for the benefit of others.

The Bill provides that up to 15% of the individual personal rate can be withheld to repay an overpayment. I am conscious that some overpayments arise because of departmental error. While all overpayments must be repaid, including those that arise because of the departmental error, it is not my intention that people will face hardship as a result of these new arrangements.

The circumstances of each case will be considered before the repayment amount is determined. It is galling for people who are receiving their legitimate social welfare entitlements and no more to find that in the case of somebody living in the same area who has perhaps been involved in abuse of the social welfare system and owes money to the Department, it can only be recovered at a rate of €2 per week. This measure will allow the rate of recovery to be at a figure up to €26 per week in regard to the main individual payment of the person responsible. It does not affect their dependants' or their children's payments.

The household budgeting facility, whereby a person can opt to have a specified amount of his or her social welfare payment deducted by An Post and paid to certain utilities and local authorities, will be extended by introducing new provisions specific to the payment of rent to a housing body. Tenants in local authority accommodation who are in receipt of a social welfare payment may opt to have a portion of their social welfare payment paid to a local authority against their rent. Local authorities will require tenants in local authority accommodation who are in receipt of social welfare payments to sign up to the household budgeting facility before being offered accommodation. Tenants will require the consent of the housing body before being allowed to withdraw from the arrangement and such consent shall not be unreasonably withheld.

I will now turn to the main headings in the Bill. Part 1 contains preliminary and general provisions in two sections. Section 1 contains the Short Title, while section 2 provides for the definition of common terms used throughout the Bill.

Part 2 contains amendments to the Social Welfare Acts. Sections 3, 4 and 9 provide for a number of amendments to the contributory pension schemes arising from the budget 2012 decision to provide for a new structure in respect of the reduced rates of State pension - contributory - and State pension - transition. Section 3 amends the definitions of ‘‘yearly average’’ and ‘‘alternative yearly average’’ for the purposes of rounding up or down. Section 9 amends the provisions relating to the payment of reduced rates of State pension - transition - so as to enable the increases payable in respect of a qualified adult, as well as the personal rates, to be paid at reduced rates where a person has a reduced yearly average. This change will apply to people who reach 65 years of age on or after 1 January 2013. The section also provides that existing claimants will not be affected.

Section 5 reduces the amount of the annual respite care grant by €325 from €1,700 to €1,375. Section 6 provides for the abolition of the weekly PRSI-free allowance of €127 with effect from 1 January 2013. Section 7 increases the rate of assessment of self-employment income from farming and fishing from 85% to 100% in the case of the farm assist, jobseeker's allowance, pre-retirement allowance and disability allowance schemes. In addition, it provides for the abolition of the annual child-related income disregards in respect of qualified children. Effectively, it puts people living in rural areas on the same footing and the same level of assessment as people living in urban areas.

Section 8 reduces the monthly rate of child benefit by €10 per child in respect of the first, second and third child. From January 2013, the monthly rate for each of the first three children will be €130. The section also provides for a reduction in the monthly rate of child benefit by €10 per child, to €130, in respect of the fourth and each subsequent child from January 2014.

Section 10 provides for an increase in the minimum rates of the pay related social insurance, PRSI, contribution payable by self employed contributors with effect from 1 January 2013. Self employed contributors with reckonable income over €5,000 generally pay class S PRSI contributions at a rate of 4%, subject to a minimum payment. The current minimum payment is €253. This is being increased to €500 with effect from 1 January 2013. Section 11 provides for an increase in the rates of voluntary contributions payable by former self employed persons and former employed contributors in line with the increase in the minimum self employment contribution from €253 to €500.

Section 12 reduces the duration of jobseeker's benefit entitlement from 12 to 9 months in the case of people who have paid at least 260 PRSI contributions and from 9 to 6 months in the case of people who have paid less than 260 contributions with effect from 3 April 2013. This change will apply to new claimants and to certain existing recipients. However, a person who has paid 260 PRSI contributions and has been in receipt of jobseeker's benefit for at least six months on 3 April 2013 will continue to be entitled to that benefit for a maximum duration of 12 months. A person who has paid less than 260 PRSI contributions and has been in receipt of jobseeker's benefit for at least three months on 3 April 2013 will continue to be entitled to that benefit for a maximum duration of nine months.

Section 13 makes changes in the recovery of social welfare overpayments by way of weekly deductions from a person's ongoing social welfare entitlements. A deduction of an amount of up to 15% of the liable person's relevant personal individual weekly rate of social welfare payment is allowed for the purpose of recovering an overpayment. A person will not be entitled to compensate for any overpayment deduction from their primary social welfare payment by seeking an additional payment of supplementary welfare allowance. Increases payable in respect of a dependent adult or child or children are not affected.

Section 14 provides for the postponement of the implementation dates of changes in respect of the one parent family payment. The dates on which the age reductions from 12 to 7 years for entitlement purposes to apply from the beginning of January 2013 and 2014 are being extended to the beginning of July in each of those years. The period during which the transitional arrangements are to apply are also being extended from end December 2014 to the beginning of July 2015.

Section 15 provides for the extension of the household budgeting scheme for local authority rents by the introduction of new provisions specific to the payment of rents to a housing body.

Sections 16 and 17 provide for amendments to entitlement to jobseeker's benefit and jobseeker's allowance in respect of Sunday working. Sundays will now be taken into account for the purposes of determining entitlement to jobseeker's benefit and jobseeker's allowance.

Part 3 of the Bill contains amendments to redundancy payment schemes set out in the Redundancy Payments Act 1967. Section 18 amends the Redundancy Payments Act 1967 by abolishing the rebates paid to employers in respect of statutory redundancy lump sums paid to their employees. This will apply in the case of statutory redundancy lump sum payments made to employees who are made redundant on or after 1 January 2013. Rebates will be available to employers on or after 1 January 2013 in respect of statutory redundancy lump sum payments made to employees who were made redundant before 1 January 2012, at a rate of 60% and on or after 1 January 2012 but before 1 January 2013, at a rate of 15%.

That completes the main provisions of the Bill. Some of the savings achieved by these measures are being redirected to provide additional spending in the key area of job and child care supports. An additional €14 million will be allocated for after-school child care places, targeted at primary school children.

The places are aimed at low-income families where the parents are availing of an employment opportunity. This initiative is part of the Government's overall strategy to support parents in low-income families to take up employment. It formed a great part of our discussions in the Seanad last year.

An additional €2 million will be allocated to expand the school meals programme which aims to provide food to children, in particular hot breakfasts, which are available in a number of schools and assist children enormously. A sum of €2.5 million will be allocated to a new area-based approach to child poverty initiative. This will be handled in detail by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, under the Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. It is about getting all the different services relating to children to join together to offer an integrated service. We have had this approach before, in particular with the Young Ballymun initiative, and also in Tallaght and Darndale. Instead of having perhaps 14 agencies interacting with certain families and children, there will be a unified approach to the provision of supports for children in families which require them.

I am using some €11 million of the savings from the jobseeker's measure to make a major expansion of our employment and internship programmes. An additional 2,500 places for JobBridge internships are being provided in 2013, and an additional 2,500 places are being made available for Tús in 2013. The community employment scheme is to benefit from an additional 2,000 places in 2013. I recall the fears of some of the Members of the House last year who suggested that community employment was under threat of disappearance. I am glad to say that following the review we are expanding community employment. Many CE schemes also avail of Tús schemes. On the ground, therefore, this will be a significant and important support to communities, not only in rural areas where we have many such schemes but also in many urban areas. The additional places on employment and internship schemes complement the child care measures I referred to earlier. Overall, therefore, expenditure on working age employment supports has been increased, from €95 million last year to €1.5 billion in 2013.

Since I became Minister for Social Protection, I have become very conscious of how crucial welfare expenditure has been in protecting people who are vulnerable and how it minimises poverty during the economic crisis. I am also conscious of how much a stimulus it is to the economy in many different parts of the country, particularly in more rural counties where, together with State employment, social welfare transfers and payments are the mainstay of the income going to retail businesses. For that reason, I have been happy to be able to protect the core weekly social welfare payments. However, the finances of the country do not permit us not to reform social welfare. We have to bring our expenditures and revenues broadly into balance over a period of time. As we do that we can see - as we have already seen this year - that we can return to markets on a phased basis. I recall, as Senators may, too, that this time last year the topic of discussion at Christmas time was whether one should keep one's money in Irish banks. Do Senators remember people talking in that vein? Some were talking about putting their money into Switzerland or bringing it over to the United States or to the United Kingdom. That was one of the topics of conversation at the time. Given all the reform that has taken place we have now come away from that danger.

At this time last year State companies were not in a position to borrow as a result of the sovereign debt risk but recently they have been able to return to the markets in a limited way.

While these advances are limited in nature, they are extremely important in ensuring that the State will return to a position of financial stability. Senators will be aware that in November, for the first time since 2005, there was a small increase in employment. This increase was only in the region of 3,500 but it is vital nonetheless. Senators will also be aware that figures released earlier today show an actual, if fractional, increase in domestic demand. Again, this is a welcome development and it is reflected in some of what has occurred in the retail area in recent times. It is to be hoped that the latter will be maintained as time passes.

I commend the Social Welfare Bill to the House. As already stated, I regret that it has been necessary to provide for savings in respect of expenditure in certain areas. I am, however, happy to commend to the House the significant increase in the number of places being made available in order to facilitate people in returning to employment and becoming financially independent again.

I thank the Minister for coming before the House to introduce the Social Welfare Bill. As was the case last year, I wish to begin by stating that - like every one of her predecessors in the Department of Social Protection - she has a difficult job. My colleagues and I fully acknowledge that fact.

I am quite disappointed by some of what the Minister said. I do not believe that carers, families or others are too interested in a history lesson. I will not become involved in-----

A Senator

The Minister provided a history of the financial crisis.

The Minister indicated that she has received a vast number of representations from carers' organisations, disability groups, families and charities such as Barnardos. In that context, we are living in the here and now. I do not want to waste the eight minutes available to me. However, I wish to state that I will stand over the introduction of the respite care grant by Fianna Fáil in 1999. I will also stand over the fact that the amount payable under this grant should remain at €1,700. I will not stand over the fact that the Minister believes it is appropriate to cut the grant by 20%. Furthermore, I will stand over the fact that I am a member of a party which, when in government, increased child benefit from €53 for the first child to €166 in 2010.

And what happened then?

The Senator should just stop and listen for a moment. The matters to which I refer are ones over which I will stand. It must be stated, however, that people outside the House and I are concerned about what the Minister is doing now.

There is one positive I will take from what the Minister said, namely, that she is going to bring forward the expert report relating to how we can manage child benefit into the future. I welcome her announcement in respect of this matter and I will certainly take part in the discussion on it. This is an important issue about which I have been critical in the past and in respect of which I will continue to be critical. A brutal, across-the-board cut in respect of all families is simply not the way forward.

I wish to indicate that we will be opposing each section of the Bill on Committee Stage and Report Stage. We have also tabled amendments to the Bill. We will have the opportunity to discuss the specifics in that context. I will, however, take the opportunity to refer now to a couple of changes that are proposed. The Minister correctly referred to the increase in the rate of unemployment. What astonishes me is her almost xenophobic view on how previous Governments acted in the context of touring Europe and the rest of the world in order to encourage people to come here to work. Was there a problem with what they did in that regard?

Those Governments should have toured local social welfare offices in the first instance.

I did not interrupt the Minister and she will have the opportunity to respond. I was very surprised by her comments in this regard.

I will not refer to the promises the Minister and her colleagues made either during the general election campaign or in the programme for Government. I will merely ask her one question. If a member of a party other than hers had introduced a Social Welfare Bill such as this two years ago, what would the Minister have said about it?

Would she have welcomed the taking of 20% off the respite care grant? Would she have said that is turning a passive system into an active one? I do not believe she would have. I acknowledge the Minister's job is tough and that in this respect she will not make everyone happy. The Seanad has a role to play, particularly today and this week. If the Seanad is to be the Chamber it is supposed to be, it should be one where we can properly review legislation and if we believe there are areas of the legislation that the Dáil has got wrong, and I firmly believe there are at least two such areas, Senators should not be afraid to vote down this Bill and send it back to the Dáil. Senators should not walk people up to the top of the hill and pronounce, with disgust and disappointment, on measures the Government is taking and not follow through on those actions, but that will be a discussion for tomorrow and Thursday. From our perspective, we will be opposing every single part of the Bill. We put forward clear alternatives and there are difficult decisions to be made.

I want to ask the Minister about the 75,000 families who receive the respite care grant. She mentioned core weekly payments being protected. They are protected if the Minister has defined what is a core payment but she has not defined that pre-budget or up to now what it is. A core payment for a family in Dublin or elsewhere in this country, whose members are doing their best to survive, is their monthly child benefit rate. Since Deputy Burton took over as Minister for Social Protection a family with three children is €684 worse off than when she took office.

That is a core payment in my view but the Minister does not believe it is. A respite care grant is a core payment, particularly for the 5,000 families who receive the respite care grant and get no further assistance from the State.

If we are to talk about finance, the economy and the banks, about which the Minister spoke at length in her contribution, I would point out that she did not mention the financial contribution carers make to this State. They provide 990,000 hours of care per week. If the HSE was to provide that care, it would cost approximately €4 billion a year, yet €325 is being taken from people who need this money. I do not understand why this is being done. If we are to talk on the premise of fairness, equality and protecting the most vulnerable, this is not the way to do it. I think we would all believe that the child benefit system should be reformed. Those who do not need it should not get it.

The Minister did not mention in her speech that there are inventive ways to do things. She did not mention the introduction of the free preschool year, which is another initiative I would stand over every single day of the week. Every child on reaching the age of three years and three months is entitled to a proper preschool Montessori year before beginning national school. Why was there no inventiveness in the budget? Rather than that all recipients' of child benefit payment will be reduced to €130 a month. The current Minister, Deputy Michael Noonan, when in opposition, famously asked the then Minister, Deputy Lenihan, God rest him, a few years ago what he had got against the third child. That got a great laugh from those on the Minister's benches at the time, and rightly so because it was a good quip. To be serious about this matter, we need to consider the current situation. Unemployment has never been higher, there is a mortgage crisis and nearly one in four mortgage holders across the board in middle Ireland are in arrears. We will deal with the property tax later in the week but how can the Minister say to a family on an income of €30,000 or €40,000 a year that cutting child benefit in this way is fair? It is not fair and the Minister knows that. How can she say to the 75,000 families who receive the respite care grant that taking 20% of that annual payment from them is fair? It is not fair. All I ask is that we have a reasoned debate here during the next three days and that Senators examine the amendments tabled, stand up for the people who really need these payments and make sure this Seanad continues and uses this opportunity to show it will stand up to the Dáil and say it got it wrong and that it must look at this legislation again. That is all the passing of an amendment means.

I thank the Minister for coming in here today. I look forward to debating the specific amendment tomorrow.

I welcome the Minister. This is an important debate as it affords us an opportunity to re-examine the purpose of social welfare and the budgetary process. Clearly, the Minister's Department is the most important in terms of expenditure. It has a budget of €21 billion, almost 40% of total Government expenditure.

Some aspects of the budget have been very controversial. I will deal with them but will first address the overall picture. This is an important day on which to hear an overview of what social welfare is about. It should be a bridge from unemployment to work and from education to work. It should not be about creating a welfare lifestyle, which concept has been bandied about considerably. We are reaching the point at which we need an information campaign in the media about the purpose of social welfare. Everybody understood the idea of Saorview but I am not so sure they understand the principle behind social welfare.

Given the size of the budget, social welfare should be about fairness. We are all trying to achieve this. It is a question of giving people a hand up and of poverty-proofing. It is about payments that are earned in the form of pensions or received by virtue of genuine circumstances. I include the carer's grant and child benefit.

Our approach must include the cutting out of fraud. Fraud hurts everyone, including the worker paying the taxes. It creates great hostility and hurts the genuinely needy. These are some of the issues on which I want to touch in my contribution.

I wish to refer to the activation measures in the budget and the important bridge from unemployment or education to employment. I compliment the Minister on the 10,000 additional places this year and particularly on her innovative local authority social employment scheme. When I examined the figures, I noted the Department is spending €1 billion on activation measures. Given that our mission is to get people back to work, this is not enough. We should be spending more in this area. As the Minister stated, doing so would constitute a social welfare investment in people's futures, particularly the futures of those who are jobless.

The most recent ESRI report, to which the Minister referred, shows that 22% of the population are in jobless families, which is twice the European average. This is a damning figure. Joblessness is not good for families. This is particularly the case for children, who need to see purposeful activity and their parents going to work.

When I am on the doorsteps, I am frequently asked why the welfare system does not require people to be more active. I recall Fr. Sean Healy making a proposal over a year ago that people should work for their welfare at a rate that one's job would command if one were employed. There is considerable dignity and purpose associated with such a practice. One would be out and about and more likely to network and pick up work.

There is a Twitter feed called @EireJobs, available at twitter.com/eirejobs, on which approximately 200 jobs per week are advertised. Has analysis been done to demonstrate that the jobs that are becoming available now require the skills of those who are claiming unemployment benefit at present? Is there a skills match or mismatch?

A Nobel laureate, Professor Christopher Pissarides, spoke in the House recently about the importance of retraining and education. It is on this subject that I applaud the Minister regarding child care places. Obviously, young women and young mothers cannot go back to work unless there are child care places. Professor Pissarides spoke strongly about the need to ensure the unemployed are ready to return to work and that there is retraining. He also spoke about the need for young people to be flexible and try many jobs until they find the one that suits them. The education system should be preparing them for this. There needs to be a tie-in with the education system in this regard.

Professor Pissarides spoke about how policies should not restrict labour turnover. He highly recommended job subsidies, stating that job subsidies that offer work experience are better than unconditional unemployment compensation. Rather than giving jobseeker's allowance, it is better to invest the money in initiatives such as Tús, JobBridge, internships and employment schemes. Sweden, for example, has a very successful scheme that subsidises the hiring of unemployed workers to replace those on maternity leave and other types of leave.

The authorities can pass on the unemployment compensation to the employer who then pays an extra portion that is higher than the compensation. Everyone wins in that case. The employer and the employee are paying PRSI, it is cheaper than supporting unemployment through transfers only, and the unemployed get work experience. German studies have found that works when a similar scheme was tried in that country.

I will make another point on activation measures. For social welfare purposes the rates for jobseekers on casual work should be calculated by hour rather than whole day. That would also reduce their incentive to not work on certain days due to the social welfare rules. That is quite controversial but in countries such as Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands and Denmark, it is working well in that they do not have to leave a full day vacant to qualify for some social welfare.

In terms of what has happened since the budget was announced, we agree we must be fair and guard against poverty. That is the challenge but the question is the way we achieve it. Since the budget announcement the country and the Government have been rocked by two measures, namely, the cut in the carer's grant and child benefit. I have reflected on that. The Minister's hands are tied. She had to take €390 million out of this budget, and that was after a very good negotiation to reduce it from €510 million. The construct within which the negotiations are taking place appears to be wrong. It is time that the programme for Government was renegotiated-----

-----because some of the promises made at the outset were unsustainable. We now see that the Minister had to cut child benefit but why did we not consider taxing it as opposed to making the €10 cut across the board, given that we are meant to have a progressive system? Would it not have been fairer, and I am supportive of all the Minister is trying to do, to have taken a little from everyone as opposed to appearing to strike at one area?

An attack on the most vulnerable.

We are almost destabilising a Government that has taken over an incredible mess left behind by the previous Government. We know at a human level that the carer's grant cut is not palatable given the important work carers do and how they save the State money, but I am aware from spending the weekend getting a good deal of feedback that it needs review and drilling down. Three postmasters - one in the west, one in the mid-west and one in the south - have told me that in their view, and these are anecdotal reports which I cannot confirm, it is not fairly handed out in that some people deserve more while others may not deserve as much. What is happening is that the family doctor is signing off but the medical assessor, on behalf of the Department of Social Protection, is doing a desk assessment. It is important that the Minister's officials check that.

Fraud has been alluded to in reports and the back to school allowance should be paid in vouchers, not in cash, because the vouchers would ensure it would be spent on clothes and books. The issue of cohabitation and rent allowance should be examined also. I strongly encourage the Minister to examine those areas. We should support her at committee level in doing that on a year long basis and not just in the few weeks leading up to the budget.

I welcome the Minister to the House. I wish to make the following statement as leader of the Independent Group of Taoiseach nominees, namely, Senator Fiach Mac Conghail, Senator Martin McAleese, Senator Mary Ann O'Brien, Senator Marie Louise O’Donnell, Senator Katherine Zappone and myself.

We are aware of the difficult decisions that successive Governments have faced in recent years. However, we have a number of concerns with regard to some of the choices made in the Social Welfare Bill. As a group we have met and discussed the Bill that is before us today. We are, as everyone knows, a group of Independents who come from a wide range of backgrounds including civil society, NGOs, the arts, education, business and human rights.

Each of us has our own unique perspective and it was for this reason we were nominated by the Taoiseach to the House.

The Seanad was established to give a voice to different and challenging opinions of Irish society. We are doing so today. As Independent Senators we all have a role in offering our particular opinion based on our experience and to challenge the Government and the Dáil in decisions they have made. Each one of us has taken time to reflect on our individual viewpoints. In the past week I have had discussions with each of the colleagues in our group. I was struck by the fairness and empathy of their considerations regarding the matters before the House. We had hoped for, and would have supported, reform of the social welfare system. However, we are faced with a proposal to make cuts instead of fundamental reforms.

We have difficulty in supporting some specific aspects of the Bill. We have tabled three amendments which can be summarised as follows. In regard to the respite care grant, we cannot underestimate the importance of this grant to brave carers and the people for whom they care. The proposed cut is inequitable and goes to the heart of our values as a nation. In regard to child benefit, we are concerned about the absence of any measures to cushion families on low incomes against these cuts. Can the Government consider counteracting these cuts for low-income families by increasing the family income supplement and the qualified child allowance or by implementing a second tier payment? In relation to section 13, we agree that measures should be put in place to recoup over-payment but the manner in which this is done is important. Recoupment should be phased or staggered in such a way that the relevant person maintains a minimum income threshold throughout the period of repayment.

We do not plan to hinder the passage of the Social Welfare Bill today as it moves from Second Stage to Committee Stage. On Committee Stage tomorrow we will give our individual viewpoints on the amendments we have tabled. We will listen carefully to the Minister's response and reflect, and on that basis determine how we will vote. We have a diversity of experience and perspectives in our group. We do not impose a whip on group members. There have been times in the past and I have no doubt there will be times in the future when we will not all vote in the same way. However, on this occasion we anticipate acting in unison.

I welcome the Minister to the House for a debate on an important and, perhaps, one of the toughest Bills that will go through the House. There is no doubt these are challenging times and some hard and unpalatable decisions had to be made. When we came into government the country was in one hell of a financial mess. The onus is on us to get the country back on track and get it moving again and bring back physical and economic stability to our country. There is no doubt citizens have been hurt not only be decisions taken in this budget but in previous budgets.

We are well aware of the gap between what we spend and take in in taxes. Unfortunately, this dictates that cuts have to be made in every Department. That social welfare has the highest spend at more than 40%, means that cuts have to be made in social welfare. All parties are in agreement that the deficit has to be closed but how we go about it is what we do not agree on.

Before addressing the more controversial issues I wish to refer to some of the more positive aspects of the Bill. An issue which has not been mentioned by the media and the Opposition is that the Minister did renegotiate the cutbacks in social protection from €540 million to €390 million. People may say that is not much but I dread to think where one would have got another €150 million savings in this year's social welfare budget. I am pleased the Minister was able to achieve that. The cuts are hard enough to bear without a further €150 million.

I welcome the €30 million in new spending on unemployment programmes and child care. I welcome specifically the 10,000 new places in the jobs activation programme and, in particular, the introduction of the 3,000 new social employment scheme places which is to be rolled out to local authorities.

This investment is consistent with the Government's priority in getting people activated, getting them back to work or undertaking education or training, which we hope will improve their chances of getting a job in the future. The plan is starting to work. Private sector employment has started to grow for the first time in four years - albeit a very small change - but at least a change in the right direction. I also welcome the roll out of the Intreo office which will reform the delivery of service for employment and income supports and will assist the unemployed with all their needs in a new, more efficient and user-friendly manner. Also very welcome is the €14 million which is being directed to after-school child care places, €2 million to the school meals programme and €2.5 million for area-based child poverty initiatives. I ask the Minister not to hand over the money to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs until she knows the child care provisions are to be set up. I also ask the Minister to continue to develop and enhance these facilities over the coming years as they are essential to her proposal to get those who are parenting alone back into the workforce.

The Minister has managed once again this year to maintain the basic rates of social welfare. I welcome that fact. Many will say that is not the case, but in it is. The Labour Party has always fought hard to protect the basic rates of payment and this coalition Government has made a decision to continue to do so. I acknowledge the value the Government places on the free travel and free television licence schemes. However, it reduced the number of units in the electricity and telephone allowance.

I know people will say we broke our promise not to cut child benefit. We did. There are no two ways about it. Since we made that promise things have changed that greatly affect the economy in this country. Europe has gone into recession. More people are dependent on social welfare. The demand on pensions has got higher. There are 80,000 more people in receipt of the State pension since we came into government.

I am worried about the impact the cut in child benefit will have on people. Many have got used to relying on this monthly payment to help to pay bills. While I understand this is not the reason child benefit was introduced, it is a fact of life that many, though not all, had come to rely on it. Many people say that taxing child benefit is the way forward. I know the Minister favours this. However, means testing is the best way forward as the people who most need it will retain it. If child benefit is taxed I would be worried about the middle-income earner who would end up paying at the very least 20% tax on it. That would be excessive for them. I welcome a debate on the proposals in the report of the Advisory Group on Tax and Social Welfare chaired by Ms Ita Mangan.

I will now deal with the cut in the respite grant for carers. Prior to and since my election to the Seanad I have worked continuously for one sector of society, namely, carers. I am constantly highlighting the valuable work of the carer in every debate possible. I even moved a motion at the Labour Party conference on carers. I met the Minister to discuss some of the issues surrounding carers. I asked her not to cut the half rate to carers as many carers were extremely worried about it. I also asked her not to reduce the disregard for carer's allowance, not to touch the domiciliary care allowance or not to make changes to the disability allowance payment. Thankfully the Minister delivered on those requests.

I did not see the cut to the respite care grant coming. I very much regret this is where the Minister had to find the funding reduction within the social welfare spend. No matter where the Minister would make the cut, it would hurt people because that is the nature of social welfare. Social welfare was put in place to help those who have no other income and depend on the State to help them. The Minister may know - I know my Labour Party colleagues know - I have written to her outlining proposals that I and my colleagues believe will benefit carers and will be cost neutral. I have discussed this at length with my Labour Party colleagues who are very much in support of the proposal. We are asking that 20% of the new job activation places would be allocated to the Carers Association throughout Ireland. This would provide 39,000 hours per week and over 2 million hours each year, which would give carers a weekly respite from caring.

I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to my other proposal for carers, namely, to extend the eligibility for carers to partake in community employment schemes, which would give them access to training and upskilling in the event of them no longer being a carer. It would also give them a break from caring and an opportunity to interact socially with other people outside the caring environment. The third request is that an interdepartmental survey on the provision of respite care be carried out to identify gaps in the provision by the HSE.

I hope she will meet her colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, and discuss it and come back to members with a satisfactory answer.
While I will be supporting the Bill, it is with a heavy heart. The reason I am doing it is that I need to be on the inside working and fighting on behalf of the carers and other recipients of social welfare. The new vulnerable in my eyes, is the low to middle-income worker. I will continue to fight to protect what they have and I will keep the pressure on the Minister and her Cabinet colleagues to ensure that no further cuts are made to carers or to people with disabilities. I will be actively pursuing our proposals with her.
I believe we must put a means test mechanism in place. We cannot continue to say that this is not possible due to administrative difficulties. If we do not start somewhere then we will never arrive at the place we want to be, where those who can afford to pay for the service pay, and those who genuinely need assistance get it. I have already called for a means testing board to be set up that will provide a one-stop shop to specifically deal with means testing and by which information can be shared among all Government bodies.

I have also suggested that people signing on for credits for pension purposes should be asked to make a small contribution, perhaps €1 per week towards safeguarding their State pension rights.

This will be a cheap pension policy for them. We can no longer accept that retired politicians, bankers and civil servants on huge pensions are left untouched. It must be dealt with. How can we expect the man or woman on the street to accept the cutbacks and the new charges that are being imposed if this sector of society goes untouched?

Will Senator Moloney please finish as she is eating into other people's time?

I apologise, I should know better, but I will be raising these issues again.

Thank you, Senator. Senator Norris has eight minutes.

I welcome this brave and courageous Minister to the House. I do not agree with her on this, but I acknowledge that she did manage, in a difficult battle, to reduce the cuts that were imposed on her in this very difficult situation. I also acknowledge the fact that I happened to notice that a Minister of State came into the House and was prepared to take over but the Minister did this House the courtesy of staying. I think it is worthwhile to state that.

Senators

Hear, hear.

I was very heartened when the Minister indicated that in previous debates on serious financial issues in which her Department had an interest, she did take the advice of the Seanad and it strengthened her hand and was able to renegotiate. In what Senator Marie Moloney said in her carefully crafted speech, she seemed to be suggesting a way in which some degree of resolution could come to the carers. I do not believe it will be sufficient. I recognise the Minister has made a commitment to restore core community services, to give funding for 10,000 additional places and €35 million for new mental health services. It is important to be balanced, especially when we are Independent Members.

I now want to deal with the notion of Independents. The single most important thing that was said today was the statement from the Independent core of the Taoiseach's nominees. That independence of mind, that careful consideration indicates very clearly to everyone that the game is now on, the ball is in play. This House can for once do what it was constitutionally established to do. It can do this without any sense of unpleasant party factionalism or confrontation with the Government because we cannot defeat it. All we can do, is as we are charged on behalf of the people to do, when a difficult, dangerous and painful situation confronts our nation, is to respectfully ask our Government to go back and reconsider the situation over a period of 90 days. That is what I will be voting for. I will not be voting to defeat the Government. I will be voting against sections of this Bill so that the voice of the people can be heard.

The reasons I am doing this is, first, on behalf of the people, second, because I believe this is the only way in which this House can possibly justify its existence. It was some kind of brainwave of the Taoiseach to suggest that Seanad Éireann be abolished. It was popular with the people. It was a populist move. The people would love to get rid of 60 politicians and would love it equally well if it was 60 politicians in the Dáil or indeed the Taoiseach himself at the moment. We are confronted with the situation.

While we will hold the EU Presidency, Cyprus still has it. Has anybody heard of Cyprus? It is a Kitchener position no different to being on the front page of Time magazine. I wonder if the penny has dropped? Our Minister for Finance does not even chair the meetings of Finance Ministers. That shows how much effect we are going to have. I will vomit publicly if I ever again hear how well behaved we are. Even the Minister pointed out that there is no violence on our streets as there is in Greece. While I do not advocate it, we are too passive. We should surround the Central Bank on a particular day in our tens and hundreds of thousands and demonstrate to our masters in Europe the cost that is being bled out of the people of Ireland by measures like this. I will support the Minister if she renegotiates.

I would say to my colleagues over there that they are gone anyway unless they justify themselves. Why not behave for once in the same manner as you do when you speak so freely out on the plinth? Live up to those actions, stand up for the Republic and thereby justify our existence. If we lie down and do not protest, we are handing the argument to those opponents of Seanad Éireann who will say "Look at the lapdogs who did not even bark when the people were imperilled". I ask Members opposite to consider their situation. There are a large number of them who may, in hopes of a seat in the other House, decide cravenly to give in to the Government. They have a fat chance.
It is important that we also correct some of the things that were said. It was suggested that people are so much better off in this country than people in Holland. In Holland, they have a really good health service. A close friend whose wife suffered from multiple sclerosis took her immediately to Northern Ireland on his retirement because the services are so much better there. These things cannot be quantified in miserable budgetary terms. Even if one did, one would find that the abolition of the weekly PRSI threshold has an immensely magnified effect on the poorest. I am not taking this from Sinn Féin; I am taking it from the ESRI. I would not impugn Sinn Féin if its members did their sums correctly. The ESRI study of Budget 2012 shows it was regressive, with reductions of 2% to 2.5% for those with the lowest incomes as against losses of approximately three quarters of a percent for those on the highest incomes. It shows that we are crucifying the most vulnerable. On those issues, we must stand up.
It is also important that some of those voices be heard. I have a small selection of the agonised e-mails that I and every other one of my colleagues have received. I am not making a party political point. There are decent people in every party and every corner of the House whose hearts ache as mine does. I ask Members to listen to these e-mails.
Once, I was the middle-class wife of a public servant. Now, I depend on welfare; not what I have worked and hoped for for 60 years. My car is being sold after Christmas. I have to get a car with a smaller engine so that I can afford to tax it. My three-year-old niece with an inoperable brain tumour will lose over €300 of her respite grant. Last year, the grant was used to purchase a pair of boots which cost €700 so that she could walk.
These are the human stories behind what we are being asked to do. We will support the Minister's hand in going back to Cabinet and asking that these cruel cuts not go through. Another e-mail states:
We are freezing, have no oil, the kids are wearing two layers and gloves. I am at my wits' end. Please do not push me any further by taking the little bit of money I am getting away.
I could not stand here and vote for these particular sections. I know we are in economic difficulty. Nobody needs to tell us. Nobody should dare to say that people use the money to go on holidays abroad. Perhaps that happened once, but I heard someone who had the audacity to say that respite carers should take their holidays in Ireland. What planet is that person living on? They are not taking holidays at all. Suppose carers did not love their family members and did not sacrifice their lives for them. Suppose they behaved callously. The State could not possibly afford it. Yet we are giving €4 billion to the Central Bank to burn.
We are not supposed to talk about the promissory note, but I demand the right to do so. I am not convinced by what is being said.
(Interruptions).

No clapping allowed in the Chamber.

I welcome the Minister and commend her on a number of points. First, she has succeeded in bringing her reductions to €390 million and she got €150 million savings. We should all remember that €150 million in her own Department and that of the Minister for Health is to be funded by taxation measures at a time when we are trying to keep taxation low to encourage consumers to spend and employers to develop job opportunities. Second, I commend her, in a difficult budgetary context, for maintaining core social welfare rates in jobseeker's benefit, jobseeker's allowance, carer's allowance and State pensions. We need to repeat that and should be very proud of a budget which can deliver those rates in such difficult times.

I was encouraged to read the proposals in the budget regarding children, in particular the creation of 6,000 after-school child care places for primary school children. The objective is to permit the parents of those children to partake in a training or employment opportunity, hopefully the latter. It is a positive proposal. Anyone who says the budget is anti-children is making misplaced comments. There is additional money for the school meals programme and the area-based poverty initiatives which are helping the most vulnerable children in our society. They also help their parents to develop employment opportunities and we do not hear enough about them. We should repeatedly refer to them. I hope the media will take them up and inform people of the very positive developments which will help children and encourage them. Those of us who have worked with these programmes, including Members opposite, know their value full well.

Somebody said the budget was not reforming enough of social welfare. The Minister spoke today of how she is changing the emphasis from the payment of income support to the development of employment initiative programmes. I welcome the addition of 10,000 places on various programmes. JobBridge has been particularly successful. A recent independent report of Indecon set out that 52% of participants in those courses gained employment. Up to 90% of participants were happy and gave positive reports of the necessary skills they developed and their confidence that they would be able to gain employment. Community employment schemes have been extended and new places developed on local authority employment schemes. These initiatives came from debates in this House. The Seanad has proved itself useful in influencing the Minister, which she acknowledged in her speech.

It is important to recognise that the national carers' strategy was published in the last 12 months. It had been long outstanding and shelved by previous Governments. While I wish the respite grant could be maintained, the fact that carer's allowance, carer's benefit, domiciliary care allowance, relative's allowance and half-rate carer's allowance are still in place is positive. I have spoken to many carers who are upset that the respite grant has been cut. I ask the Minister, as Senator Moloney did, to consider introducing means testing in this area as there is some disquiet.

The Minister of State, Deputy Perry, is concerned about the need to get people back to work. I have spoken to many who are availing of these very valuable employment schemes and they are positive. To say that this is not a reforming budget in respect of its social welfare contribution is completely untrue.

Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Chathaoirleach. I want to share two of my minutes with Senator Byrne.

I wish to begin by reading a few lines from a speech given in 1941 to the Congress in the United States by Franklin Roosevelt:

There is nothing mysterious about the foundations of a healthy and strong democracy. The basic things expected by our people of their political and economic systems are simple. They are equality of opportunity for youth and for others. Jobs for those who can work. Security for those who need it. The ending of special privilege for the few. The preservation of civil liberties for all. The enjoyment of the fruits of scientific progress in a rising standard of living.

Those words were true in 1941 and are true today yet we are discussing a Social Welfare Bill which contains a fundamental cut affecting the less privileged in society, those who are disabled and those who are elderly and vulnerable. The cut equates to approximately €26 million. There are 22 top bankers receiving salaries of over €500,000 each, which amounts to close to €15 million. There are 88 retired bankers on pensions of over €100,000 each. When those figures are added together they amount to the cut in the respite care grant. That brings home Roosevelt’s words but the privileged appear to be protected and are not affected by cuts in the budget or any action on the part of the Government. On the other hand, the most vulnerable are being attacked.

The cut in the respite care grant was a step too far, affecting people who are voiceless and unable to defend themselves. The small saving of €26 million should be reconsidered. There are very good Senators in the Government parties, and I hope that they will use the amendments which Fianna Fáil and others will bring forward over the next few days to reflect on their consciences and vote according to what they believe is right, based on the words of Roosevelt and others since he made that speech in 1941.

I have done a simple sum, based on a rural family in which the husband receives a farm income of approximately €15,000 and farm assist, there is a disabled child who receives the respite care grant and the mother receives a carer’s allowance. They will be penalised to the tune of €3,061 by this budget because the farm assist payment will be reduced by at least €47.50 a week, child benefit, if they have two children, by €240 a month, and the cuts in the respite care grant will amount to €325 annually. If their overall household income is in the region of €29,000 they will be subject to a cut of approximately 10.5% in their overall household income. That is a regressive budget. No one could support that.

The Senator is eating into Senator Byrne’s time.

That is why we are bringing forward our amendments.

Táim buíoch do mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir Ó Domhnaill, as a chuid ama a roinnt liom. In the programme for Government, the Government parties commit to protecting social welfare rates. There is nothing in the programme for Government about core or specific rates. The Tánaiste, the leader of the Labour Party, reaffirmed that commitment on the 100th day in office of this Government. That solemn commitment has been evident only in its breach.

Those affected by the highest cuts in this budget are those in receipt of the respite care grant and the back to school allowance. The latter allowance is not covered by this Bill. Why have they been targeted? Why has this not been done more fairly? Middle Ireland has been hit by child benefit cuts and the increase in PRSI. The Labour Party promised to protect child benefit when it was in opposition and during the election but in government a Labour Party Minister has offered it up with no resistance from Fine Gael. That is unfortunate and people should remember the commitments they made before and after the election.

Senators who voted across party lines to protect the Seanad are now called upon to vote across party lines to protect the most vulnerable in society and to use one of the few powers available to us, namely, to tell the Dáil and the Government to think again and make fairer cuts and honour commitments made before and after the election.

I would like on my own behalf, and on behalf of the Labour Party in counties Laois and Offaly, to apologise to the electorate in our constituency for failing in this instance to abide by a solemn pre-election pledge to protect child benefit. To say otherwise is merely splitting hairs and semantics. When I, along with my colleagues, put up those posters and distributed those leaflets during the election, I believed we intended to stand over that commitment. I earnestly regret that we have not. I share the same deep sense of betrayal which is felt by many of those in my community and beyond who have contacted me, anxious and distressed by this across-the-board cut to child benefit.

We also promised to protect the most vulnerable, to be fair and ensure equity. Again, a universal cut to the carer's respite grant surely fails that test. It is not that I am looking to apportion blame but rather accept my share of the responsibility in these failures. If we promised reform, we also promised to restore confidence and credibility in a much tarnished, discredited body politic which has been brought into much disrepute. We will hardly do so by making false promises ourselves or breaking our promises.

The Government has a current expenditure in excess of €52 billion and the adjustment in tough cuts and taxes in this budget amount to €3.5 billion. The main flash point issues amount to less than €150 million. It is my sincerely held view that we could have addressed this amount differently rather than picking on children and carers. The option of a temporary short-term solidarity levy or social charge on high earners in excess of €100,000 was roundly rejected by the coalition Government. The choice the Cabinet made is beyond me.

It falls to more than the Labour Party to be guardians and gatekeepers of social solidarity, fairness and decency. People complain about the hand of the troika and our lack of sovereignty. True, we are not free agents and we are beholden. However, our income tax rates and policy should not be set by faceless third parties. After all, we already have a generous and attractive corporation tax regime. Many high earners and corporate entities would willingly subscribe to a voluntary social charge or a voluntary corporate contribution in the short term, particularly if they felt that resources were ring-fenced and put to best use for those most in genuine need.

It would also be remiss of me not to acknowledge and commend the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, for her considerable achievement in substantially protecting those reliant on the bulk of her €20 billion social protection budget and safeguarding weekly payments to the disabled, carers, widows, pensioners and the unemployed. This is no mean achievement and one I do not disregard.

However, the time has come for the overhaul and reform of the child benefit system. Children's allowance was introduced as a universal payment in the 1930s but we live in a much different and more complex society today. With the budget's cut in child benefit, it is unfair that a family on €20,000 should be subjected to the same financial hit as those on €100,000 and over. On such difficult decisions, the Seanad does have a responsibility.

No Member has a monopoly on courage or righteousness. One road is as hard as the other. However, I do take exception to the personalised and vitriolic nature of attacks we have witnessed recently. Some people believe it is okay to give any politician they meet dogs' abuse as if it does not matter.

As for the goading from the Opposition, its Members will maintain they are simply doing their jobs. It would be a poor lookout for me if I had to turn to either Fianna Fáil or Sinn Féin to set my moral compass.

Who goaded Senator Whelan?

We did not mention the Senator at all.

I will not be chastised by either Deputy Martin or Deputy Adams about doing the right thing. When Bertie Ahern and his greedy cohorts were milking this country dry, Deputy Martin and those who cosy up beside him sneering and scoffing had their chance to stand up to be counted but they chose instead to stand idly by. Then there is the political utopia of Sinn Féin. What about a Fianna Fáil-Sinn Féin Government? God forbid; the country has enough troubles.

What is the point of this?

These past two weeks I have robustly endeavoured, in private and in public, to change elements of this budget. It is not, however, my function as a Labour Senator to seek to recklessly destabilise the Government. To vote down the Bill would in my considered view lead to such instability that would be dangerous for our country. To what end, to what benefit and who would gain?

Carers might benefit.

I believe it would be a pointless, if populist, gesture, playing into the hands of a grossly irresponsible Opposition. Some of us have a value system and agenda that goes beyond the pursuit of merely looking to the next election and playing to the gallery. I will finish on this point.

Is the Senator finished already?

I intend to campaign for real change and reform as a committed Labour Party Senator and supporter of this Government.

That was a pathetic speech.

That was unbelievable.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Perry, to the Chamber. As we are all aware, the country is watching and listening to what we do here today. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, is a member of the Fine Gael-Labour Party Cabinet and is responsible for a Department that provides an investment of 37% of government expenditure for the protection and well-being of the people. She has the opportunity over the next several days in the Seanad to adopt a new tone of governance, a form of deliberative and representative democracy that demonstrates a dialogic approach between the Government and the people.

Since the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform announced the outlines of the 2013 budget, a national conversation has erupted in which all of us as public representatives have listened and participated. Over the course of the past several days, especially when the Social Welfare Bill was debated in the Lower House, a few prime issues have risen to the top of the budget debate. As my colleague and group leader, Senator van Turnhout, has so forcefully outlined, Independent Members have put forward amendments to the Bill to deal with these issues.

There is not one person in the country who does not understand that our economy is in a terrible way, that our recovery has so far been anaemic, that savings must be made and, above all in light of the financial and social crises, that we must limit the damage done to the most vulnerable, especially when budgetary choices are made. Governing with a dialogic approach requires, even in the toughest times, that those who lead demonstrate flexibility and empathy. The people need to be listened to and those who govern must trust the people. The Minister for Social Protection said she had reduced the original amount to be cut by €150 million. It is a significant amount, for which I commend her, as I do on the other reforms she has introduced. However, as of today, I, as well as the majority, do not understand why the Government did not approach some key budgetary measures differently.

Why did Fine Gael and the Labour Party fail to increase the universal social charge for those earning more than €100,000 per annum? We have been told it is because the Labour Party lost the battle and Fine Gael promised not to increase taxes. I have heard even those on more than €100,000 acknowledge that an increase would have been a fairer way to proceed than to make reductions in the respite care grant. Even to increase the universal social charge by 1% or 2% could have compensated for the saving of the €26 million which was achieved by cutting respite care, and that cut would not then have had to proceed. We have not heard credible, logical, value-based reasons for choices such as these. Further, why did those who govern postpone the capping of tax relief for the pensions of high earners until 2014? What credible, logical, value-based reason could there be not to introduce a saving of €215 million for 2013, thereby allowing the Government to maintain the incomes of children in the poorest and hungriest households?

The Minister says she has to cut child benefit across the board, from rich to poor and middle-income households alike, and that a fairer, more equitable reform of child benefit must wait until the expert report on that topic is debated. Why? Rich and poor alike do not understand the logic of that wait. Ireland needs a form of governance that is credible, listens to the people and demonstrates that equality of empathy is present. To make a few changes, even now, to the budget will not unravel the whole thing. Rather than set us on a slippery slope, it would demonstrate a new form of governance and those the Minister was willing to trust would be more likely to respond with renewed hope and determination. I ask the Minister to call a meeting with the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform - the Economic Management Council - to ask them to listen to the people and to feel with them, which is the nature of empathy, and to make key changes even at this stage. The alternative is that Fine Gael and the Labour Party risk leaving what Adrienne Rich calls "a rusted legacy". There is still time to image the possible and engage in a way of governing that engenders hope for all our people.

The next Senator has five minutes, but I will advise her after four minutes as I am trying to get as many speakers in as possible.

We have two more days on it. I will start anyway and do as well as I can.

I want to clarify for Members that we will conclude Second Stage by agreement at 5.30 p.m.

The clock did not start when I stood up. It has not started yet.

It is starting now. I am advised that the Chair presides over these matters. We look forward to the Senator's contribution.

The Acting Chairman is taking my minutes.

I commend the speakers who have spoken and spoken well on a very serious issue. One Senator said "The game is on". It is not a game, nor is it a battle between Fine Gael and the Labour Party.

He did not mean it like that.

It is a very serious monetary situation the country finds itself in. It is not only the Government but everybody in the country who has to recognise where we all find ourselves, mostly through no fault of our own. I take responsibility for anything I did as a local councillor. I was impressed with speeches from Independent Senators who said that the Seanad is a place where one can make changes. However, I would be much more impressed if the Independent or Fianna Fáil Senators who spoke had identified from where the money is going to come. When the Minister was initially tasked with finding €540 million, she reduced it to €150 million. I did not remember until today that the initial spending that the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrat Government sought was €800 million.

The Senator was gone then.

I was there and I say that what has given politics a bad name is hypocrisy.

Is the Senator jumping ship?

Hypocrisy in politics gives politicians a bad name. Senators should man up, or woman up, and say when they are wrong. In the budget for 2010 and again in 2011 when Deputy Ó Cuív was Minister, Fianna Fáil slashed the core weekly payments on which some of the most vulnerable groups in society relied. Carer's allowance and tax relief for carers were cut, as were widow's pensions, invalidity pensions and pensions for the blind.

In 2011, under the then Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats slashed the core weekly payments on which the most vulnerable groups in society relied. They cut both the carer's allowance and the carer's tax relief, as well as the widow's pension, the invalidity pension and the blind pension. I do not ascribe blame because the entire situation had collapsed and the Government had to do something. We are now being blamed for continuing with what we were bequeathed by the previous Government and every Minister has to cut the cloth accordingly. Nobody likes to make cuts in the Department of Social Protection because they affect the most vulnerable in society.

The respite care grant has been reduced but it trebled over the last ten years. Carers have the hardest job in the country and if one put a monetary value on the work they do because, for example, those for whom they cared were hoisted into hospitals, it would make for an interesting analysis. We currently spend €771 million on carers but that should be weighed against what is spent on nursing homes.

We must ensure the budget is fair and that everybody pays a fair share. However, we also want to ensure those who can pay their share stay in this country and employ people. The Irish tax system is one of the most progressive in the world according to an OECD report published in 2011. The OECD defines the tax wedge as income tax plus employee and employer social security contributions. Ireland comes second in the world and first in the EU for progressivity, which means fairness. I rarely hear that mentioned in the newspapers.

I want those in need to get the money. That is what the Minister, Deputy Burton, has done. She is tackling fraud to ensure the money goes where it is needed and to ensure those who are not in need do not fraudulently receive payments. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, is working with the Minister, Deputy Burton, to put the money where it is needed at a time when we do not have all the money we want.

I pointed out earlier that a report by the OECD reveals that Irish mothers pay a huge price for having children. Their earning potential is reduced. Child care and child benefit will be debated in the Seanad. We cannot do everything at once but it is an issue we will have to address.

Debate adjourned.
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