Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Dec 2012

Vol. 220 No. 2

Order of Business

Senator Maurice Cummins

The Order of Business is No. 1, report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on Standing Order 22(3) on the summoning of the Seanad, to be taken, without debate, at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Appropriation Bill 2012 [Certified Money Bill] - all Stages, to be taken, without debate, at the conclusion of No. 1; No. 3, motion for earlier signature of the Appropriation Bill 2012, to be taken, without debate, at the conclusion of No. 2; No. 4, Social Welfare Bill 2012 - Report and Final Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 3 and conclude not later than 2 p.m., if not previously concluded; No. 5, motion for earlier signature of the Social Welfare Bill 2012, to be taken, without debate, at the conclusion of No. 4; and No. 6, Finance (Local Property Tax) Bill 2012 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 2 p.m. and conclude not later than 5.30 p.m.

As this is the last day of this session, I take the opportunity to thank the leaders, the Whips and all the Members of the House for their help and co-operation throughout this session and throughout the year. I also thank Deirdre, Jody and the staff in the Seanad Office for putting up with us and the Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach for their patience in putting up with us on many occasions when they were challenged throughout the year. I also thank the Cathaoirleach's secretary, Aisling, and my own secretary, Orla, for keeping us on the straight and narrow throughout the year. I thank the ushers and all the staff of the House for their help and assistance. I wish each and every one of the Members and their families a very happy and peaceful Christmas.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Darragh O'Brien.

Senator Catherine Noone

That has disarmed him.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Yes, damn it. I was going to go for him but I cannot do it now.

Senator Paschal Mooney

He will have to be nice.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I will be nice at the start, anyhow. Genuinely, I concur with the Leader's remarks and wish all my colleagues in the House a very happy Christmas. We have had a decent year. We have not agreed on everything, or we have hardly agreed on anything, probably, but the debates that have happened through this House have, in the main, been respectful. I respect everyone's views. We sometimes cross swords, which is fine. If I have offended anyone over the year - tough.

I thank Deirdre, Jody, the Cathaoirleach, the Leader of the House, all the people who work with me and all the ushers and staff of the House for their assistance throughout the year. I look forward to locking horns again early in the new year. However, we are not finished yet and we have a very important day today.

I have one question in regard to the Finance (Local Property Tax) Bill 2012, which the Leader said is to conclude at 5.30 p.m. I assume that is Committee Stage. When is it proposed to take the Report and Final Stages?

Senator Maurice Cummins

It is Committee and Remaining Stages, as I said on the Order of Business.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

That is not as circulated earlier in the week. We have a number of amendments on the property tax Bill, which, as I said on Second Stage yesterday, is an anti-Dublin and anti-urban Bill. I have outlined to the House my view and that of my party that we oppose the Bill. Unfortunately, I will have to oppose the Order of Business on the basis that the Leader is proposing to use the guillotine.

I remind Members that we go back to the Social Welfare Bill today. It was in one respect good to see a lively, informed debate yesterday. I respect everyone's views in this debate and, while I do not agree with them, I would not question anyone's bona fides in regard to their contributions. I was concerned that some Members were questioning why other members of my party and I, as well as members of the Opposition, were raising concerns about the carer's grant cut. It is a genuinely held belief. We disagree with it completely. They do not have to agree with our position but what I will not accept is Members in this House questioning why we would actually oppose this cut, and also stating, as a Member did yesterday, that we are using the carers and those people who need care for political purposes. I reject that charge outright. I respect what Members on the Government side say, although I do not always agree with it, but I never call into question why they raise those issues or why they have a certain stance. I would take people at face value, although maybe I am naive to do so.

We will go back to section 5, on the respite care grant, today. The Seanad yesterday showed - I hope it showed people outside - that it has a real purpose. There is a chance again today to send back to the Dáil a flawed Bill, particularly section 5 and particularly the 20% cut to the carers. I ask Members to have a think, on the last day before we break for Christmas, as to what type of Christmas present a 20% cut to the respite care grant will be to the carers. We will debate that on the Social Welfare Bill. Unfortunately, I will have to oppose the Order of Business on the basis the Leader is bringing in the guillotine on the family home tax Bill.

Senator Aideen Hayden

As one of those who made that accusation against Fianna Fáil yesterday in regard to the carers, I would like them to tell me how many of them protested with the carers when, in the Fianna Fáil budget of 2010, they cut the carer's grant by €16.50. I will leave it at that.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Do that.

Senator Aideen Hayden

Incidentally, I do not agree with Senator Darragh O'Brien that he has not called into question the motivation of members of the Labour Party.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I have not.

An Cathaoirleach

This is questions to the Leader.

Senator Aideen Hayden

If anything has been absolutely clear, it has been the consistent accusations from Fianna Fáil about the motivations and bona fides of members of the Labour Party.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

It is about their decisions.

Senator Aideen Hayden

I will leave it at that.

I am very much aware this is the last day of the sitting of this House for 2012 and there are a number of matters I wanted to bring to the attention of the House with regard to positive measures the House has engaged in in the past 12 months. I particularly sought measures that had achieved, in the main, all-party support. First, I want to mention the Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill 2011. I genuinely believe that measure will not only change the political landscape but will change the political landscape with regard to the participation of women in Irish politics. I also want to mention the Personal Insolvency Bill. I know the Opposition has questioned aspects of that Bill, as have members of the Government, and sought changes, which in the main were listened to and ceded to. The personal insolvency legislation will be a leading measure in dealing with the level of personal debt and insolvency in this country in future years. With regard to children, it is noteworthy that, in the main, all of the measures relating to children that have come before this House have received all-party support in the past 12 months. In particular, there was general consensus around the children's referendum, legislation relating to vetting and legislation relating to the withholding of information.

Senator David Norris

We are going to have a busy day if we are dealing with all of that legislation.

Senator Aideen Hayden

I look forward to the year ahead. While there are challenges facing the country and the Government, this country goes into the Presidency of the European Union with a clear agenda, which is to deal with the bank debt and deal with unemployment. The Government has made its position clear. As the Leader of the Labour Party, the Tánaiste, Deputy Eamon Gilmore said, "Tús maith, leath na hoibre" - our priorities are going to be stability, jobs and growth. I look forward in the next six months to a very active Irish Presidency of the European Union that I am confident before March will have secured for this country a deal on the banking debt.

Like the Leader, I also thank colleagues. Our exchanges have been robust but, in the main, professional. I thank some of the people the Leader forgot to mention. First, I thank our own staff, the staff who support the Members of this House. I also mention the library staff who provide an excellent resource. On behalf of the Labour Seanad group, I wish all of our colleagues, the members of the Seanad staff in particular, a very happy Christmas and a prosperous new year. I look forward to more robust engagements with the Opposition in the new year.

Senator Sean D. Barrett

I echo the statements of the Leader and the other speakers. I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Leader for their unfailing courtesy at all times. There may be problems in other debating chambers near here but they do not occur in this Chamber, which is a tribute to them both. I agree with everything Senator Hayden said about all of our staff.

It was a momentous year, with a Nobel prize winner addressing the House and the Orange Order being here. Those are momentous events which have not yet made the impression they should have on the outside world.

If we keep at it, the media will form a better view of what we do here. The Seanad must convince the public, as it has convinced me, that it does useful work in terms of scrutiny, checks and balances on how the country is run. The year 2011 is in the past. There are lawyers, which is a conservative profession, involved in the New Beginnings group. Let us hope that when this House returns in the new year we will have new beginnings and will finally stop fighting last year's election. There are huge problems facing this country. We must move forward.

One of the headlines on the front of today's edition of the Irish Independent is, "TDs sneak through own budget with just 2.5pc cut". In a debate about ten days ago with the Minister of State, Deputy White, we heard that the cost of running Leinster House had been reduced by more than €60 million. I ask the Leader to draw the attention of the wider public to this. Let us have debate informed by the facts. We are doing a good job but can do better. It is regrettable that the €60 million saving announced during that debate with the Minister of State was not reported in the media.

Senator Michael Comiskey

I wish the Cathaoirleach, all colleagues across the House and staff a happy Christmas and peaceful new year.

I welcome the deal done overnight in Brussels on the fisheries quotas, which is a good deal. We were concerned prior to this deal being done that quotas for Irish fishermen would be cut. However, many of the fisheries quotas have been increased, including the prawn quota, which is up by 6%, and the mackerel quota. This will be of particular interest to the people along the west coast with whom I have spoken over the past year on fisheries issues, in particular small fishermen. I often compare small fishermen to small farmers. They go out on the sea in difficult times. It is a difficult life for them. It is important that the quotas are maintained and that they are looked after. It is important also that the issue of disregards be addressed, which I know the Minister is working on. I believe it will be abolished at EU level during the next year. This increase in quotas will result in more jobs in the fishing industry. Some 20 jobs were recently created in Galway as a result of the quota increase for small fishermen. It is a good news story for the fishing sector.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

I thank the Cathaoirleach for his forbearance and indulgence during the past year. I hope I did not let him down all of the time. I also wish the best of luck to the staff of the Seanad Office, Deirdre, Jody and Aisling, the Leader, Senator Cummins, my colleagues in this House and our very affable Government Whip, Senator Paul Coghlan, who for a number of reasons, had many home runs this year but was almost bowled over yesterday but stood steadfast.

Senator Paul Coghlan

I am good at pulling fast ones.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

We were made well aware of the tenacity and personalities of various Senators during a debate in this House yesterday. I was in the Chair at the time and chose to listen and not get involved despite the fact that I have my own views on the matter. The emotion and passion evident in that debate, regardless of which party or none the Senators are Members of, has never been matched in the other House. It is important that is said. I understand the position in which Labour Party Senators found themselves, although some were flying kites and drew attention to it in another way. One Senator, for whom I have great respect, unfortunately decided to jump ship. There has been much comment in the media about Deputy Keaveney's use of Latin phraseology and verbiage, etc. In terms of what occurred here yesterday in relation the final vote and what will happen today, I would use the following Latin maxim, res ipsa loquitur, which means "the thing speaks for itself".

I join Senator Comiskey in welcoming the achievement by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, in Brussels last night. It is important that when the Government is successful it is given credit and praised. The fishing industry is, unfortunately, in a delicate state. It is ridiculous that the Minister has to go to Brussels to negotiate on these matters every year. I have previously stated that such negotiations should only take place every two or three years. The scientists and fishing organisations involved, including the Killybegs Fishermen's Organisation and the Irish South and West Fish Producers Organisation also deserve credit for this deal. These negotiations always take place in the run-up to Christmas. They take place over two or three days and require a great deal of energy and effort. It should be possible to strike deals which would be valid for two or three years. The scientists are correct that the fish will not disappear.

It is important to remember the fishermen who lost their lives in Union Hall. The fishing industry is often forgotten. I opposed the introduction by former Minister, Noel Dempsey, of the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act 2005, to which 130 amendments were tabled. Although I was not happy with some of the aspects of that Bill I did vote in support of them. The paucity of Members on the Government side of the House when it came to rural issues at that time was notable. It is important that fishermen, who do a difficult job and are often a forgotten society, are remembered in our prayers, in particular at Christmas. In this regard I am speaking not of those who indulge in caviar or prawn cocktails. We must support our fishermen. I ask the Leader to provide time for a debate on the fishing industry in the new year, in particular given the upcoming review of the Common Agricultural Policy. It is critical we have a full debate on that matter prior to March, which debate I hope will be engaging.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe

I am not sure if we are spending the last day of the world in the Seanad.

Senator Cáit Keane

That is tomorrow.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe

It may happen. If it is today, I will be glad to have spent the day in the Seanad with all of my colleagues.

Like others, I wish Members, staff, the Cathaoirleach, the Leader and Whips a very happy Christmas and thank the Leader of the Labour Party group, Senator Bacik, for her efforts and hard work this year. Like other speakers, I draw attention to some of the good done by the Seanad this year, including establishment of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee. It is hoped that next year we will begin to make an impact through that process. There is much comment about the lack of attention paid to the Seanad. It is important we keep working and introducing new ideas and continually remind the media and others in the community that we are here and are working hard. I believe that those who attended the public consultation committees here know that we are reaching out to particular communities. We should continue to do so.

I thank the members of the media office who have assisted me in organising the Young Senators Competition which will take place soon, the winners of which - 60 young people - will be made Senators for a day and will attend in this House. I look forward to it. It is another innovation on the part of the Seanad.

Like Senator Comiskey, I welcome the fisheries deal. I am sure the Minister, Deputy Coveney, having been up all night, is having a well earned rest today. If not, he might manage to do so tomorrow. While there are still other difficulties in the fisheries area, it is important to pay tribute to the Marine Institute of Ireland, which in the context of the debate on the reduction in the prawn quota for Ireland took photographs of the prawn stock which enabled it to prove the calculations in that regard were wrong.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

That is a valid point.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe

The result was an increase in our prawn quota, which, given the industry is worth approximately €40 million to the economy, was important. We should pay tribute to the institute which is not often mentioned in fishery debates for its contribution. The confirmation on all sides that there will be no loss of jobs in the fishing industry in Ireland is important.

There will still be difficulties and Senator Denis O'Donovan is right to raise the point. It is good, however, that at the end of this year these fraught negotiations have concluded well.

I pay tribute to the four young men who managed to make it onto the Forbes 30 Under 30 list. I cannot believe Ireland, with a population of 4.1 million, has managed to have four people on a list of 30 drawn from the whole world, people who are able, willing and capable entrepreneurs in their areas. They are Patrick and John Collison from Limerick, James Whelton who introduced Coder Dojo, of which many Senators will have heard, and Jonathan Cloonan. Such an achievement augurs well for the future. As we seek to build a better economy, it is to people such as these we should look. We are very grateful for their efforts and look forward to more.

Senator David Norris

Since Senator Susan O'Keeffe mentioned remarkable moments and people, it is worth mentioning the young woman teacher at the scene of the tragic shooting in Connecticut who marshalled a significant group of her students into a cloakroom and remained behind to mislead the gunman. She saved their lives, which was heroic and for which I salute her. The thanks of our group have been passed on and I join my colleague, Senator Sean D. Barrett, in that regard.

I refer to the Social Welfare Bill. It is very disappointing that sections of it were effectively talked out. I hope we can have a disciplined debate. This is very important, even though it is obviously unlikely we will win a vote. On the other hand, we can do some of the work we are supposed to do. We never reached section 13, for example, which deals with the clawback of overpayments, fraud and so on, but it makes no distinction between these categories, which is a serious technical flaw in the Bill. That section was not reached in the Dáil before the debate on the Bill was guillotined. If it is not reached in the Seanad either, the Oireachtas will have completely failed. I ask, therefore, that we co-operate in order that we will reach those sections the other House failed to reach. That sounds like a beer advertisement.

Has the Cathaoirleach had any success in getting a reading from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade on motion No. 12? If it would be possible to pass it in ten minutes or so today, that would be helpful.

Senator Catherine Noone

I raise the issue of debt forgiveness. The comments yesterday of the former Minister, Ray MacSharry, at a committee of the Houses was nothing short of shocking. He stated that in Permanent TSB there would be no debt forgiveness after the three year period of bankruptcy. This was an outrageous statement. It is hard to understand how he could not understand the legislation, being a former Minister for Finance, but one must wonder if he does understand it and its intent. I call on the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House in the new year to discuss this problem. I do not know whether other institutions will buy into this thinking, as there is some disagreement. However, we need to debate the issue in full. If the legislation we have worked through in recent months needs to be further bolstered, this should be done at the earliest possible opportunity.

Senator David Cullinane

I wish to be associated with the words of thanks expressed by the Leader and previous speakers to all staff at all levels in Leinster House. I say the same to the Leader, the Cathaoirleach, the Leas-Chathaoirleach, all those who sit in the Chair from time to time, the group leaders, the Whips and all other Senators for their contributions in the course of the year. No doubt next year will be as tough as this one, but it will provide opportunities for us to make a real difference and have an impact, as I am sure we will.

I draw to the attention of the Leader something that came into the public domain yesterday, namely, the withdrawal of contracts for newly qualified nurses from the 2012 group. A memo was issued to all directors of nursing stating anybody among the 2012 group of newly qualified nurses would have his or her contract withdrawn; essentially, he or she will be made unemployed and then re-employed in February at reduced rates. The unions involved, including the IMNO, are scathing about this move because, once again, it is young nurses who are being targeted and will be affected. Many of them have said they will leave the country because they will not be able to survive on these wage levels, given that they have gone through college, being trained and do a very difficult job which they are being asked to do on a salary of €22,000 when their colleagues who were employed in 2010 and 2011 will be on higher salaries. In many debates comparisons are made with the position in the United Kingdom and other countries. In the United Kingdom newly qualified nurses earn £27,000, or €33,146. This is, therefore, a very real problem. The INMO and other unions are organising a press conference today on the matter. It is serious and one we need to examine. Will the Leader say what exactly has happened in this regard? Is this Government policy and what action will the Government take?

Senator Cáit Keane

Like other speakers, I wish everybody in the Seanad and those in the Oireachtas Library a very happy Christmas. When I was listening to the radio on my way here this morning, I heard the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, being interviewed on "Today with Pat Kenny". I concur with Senator Aideen Hayden who complimented the Minister on the personal insolvency legislation and noted what it would do for everybody who found himself or herself insolvent as a mortgage holder or a business person. The Bill will be a great asset and I compliment the Minister on bringing it through the Houses.

The issue I wish to raise was raised also by Senator Catherine Noone, namely, the comments of Mr. MacSharry who attended the finance committee yesterday. The Minister stated he was amazed and shocked by Mr. MacSharry's contribution to the effect that the banks would engage - whatever that may mean - and negotiate but in the spirit of the Bill as written, rather than by acting to write down mortgages. Public interest directors are on the boards of banks to represent the public interest. What are their duties? Where are they written down? They should be taken in and schooled if they do not know them. Obviously, Mr. MacSharry does not know what the public interest means and is working in the interests of the bank.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

To be fair, there is more than one public interest director. The Senator has mentioned only one.

Senator Cáit Keane

Absolutely, but Mr. MacSharry was the one who made the comment.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

The Cathaoirleach has ruled many times that we should not mention people who are not in the House.

An Cathaoirleach

He is an individual and his name should not be mentioned in the House.

Senator Cáit Keane

He was mentioned on the airwaves, as well as in the Seanad.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

There are others.

Senator Catherine Noone

He is a former Minister. There is also Margaret Hayes.

Senator Cáit Keane

There are many others. Senator Catherine Noone mentioned Margaret Hayes. All bank boards have public interest directors. I want to know what their duties are, where they are written down and what we can do about it. Most important, there should be an audit at the end of the year to find out if these directors are performing their duties in the public interest. We must discuss this issue again in the Seanad. There is no point in having public interest directors who are on a fine fat salary if we do not know what they are doing. That is the question.

Senator Terry Leyden

I share in sending best wishes for the Christmas season, particularly to the Cathaoirleach who has been most fair to everybody on this side of the House. We all agree that he has been exemplary in his work. I am being genuine when I say this.

I concur with the Leader, Senator Maurice Cummins, in sending best wishes to all of the staff. I say the same to him and the leader of our Opposition group, Senator Darragh O'Brien, as well as to our secretaries, the Clerk of the Seanad, Ms Deirdre Lane, the assistant clerk, Ms Jody Blake, and Ms Aisling Hart, who all do excellent work. The Cathaoirleach knows that when one is in the Chair as an Acting Chairman, they all give such good advice because of their knowledge and experience. I, therefore, share the Leader's sentiments. Please forgive me for going on, but I am one of the longest serving Members of the House. I also extend good wishes to the stenographers and sound engineers who do a wonderful job. In terms of its quality and excellence, the reporting is unbelievable. Lacking details of locations and townlands, the reporters put everything into legible form. To them I say, "Well done."

It is only when one is out of the Houses that one realises the value of the staff. There was a period when I was not a Member but the staff still displayed a level of respect towards me that was exemplary. People think that we are shown respect because we are Members. However, the staff of the Houses show respect to everyone else, including former Members, visitors, schoolchildren, etc. This is a great Parliament and we should be very proud of it.

In appointing 11 extremely competent Independent Senators, the Taoiseach has done the House a great service. Those Senators, of their own volition, took a particular action yesterday. I commend all of them for the decision they made. People have to do their jobs and vote in a certain way. What happened yesterday showed the strength of this House. It also illustrated the fact that the Taoiseach had the strength of character to appoint 11 people without attaching any preconditions to their membership of the Seanad, such as stipulating that they should vote in favour of Government legislation. Those to whom I refer have done themselves proud and I am sure they will vote with the Government when it suits them to do so. One of the 11 Senators actually voted for the first time yesterday. He had other serious national commitments but he still came in and voted.

Without embarrassing my colleagues in the Labour Party, Senator Heffernan is a very courageous young man. I was with Jim Kemmy in 1982-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should not refer to individuals. He should confine himself to the Order of Business.

Senator Terry Leyden

Some 30 years ago I walked through the lobbies in the Dáil with the late Jim Kemmy who lost his seat as a result of what happened at that time. Mr. Kemmy was a very strong individual and he had a great personality.

I take the opportunity to second Senator Darragh O'Brien's proposal in respect of the Order of Business.

An Cathaoirleach

There is no need for the Senator to second it.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe

Senator Leyden has his Christmas tie on. He made the effort.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Leyden have a question for the Leader?

Senator Terry Leyden

I have a good question for the Leader. I ask that he use his influence to encourage the Minister for Justice and Equality to approve the release, for humanitarian reasons, of a certain prisoner at Christmas. Everyone knows to whom I am referring and I will not name him. The Leader should make contact with the Minister and the governor of the relevant prison in respect of this matter. We would all be very happy if the man in question were released during the Christmas period.

Senator Michael Mullins

I join colleagues in wishing the Cathaoirleach a very happy and peaceful Christmas. I take the opportunity to thank him and all the wonderful staff of the House. We are all united in complimenting all the members of staff with whom we interact. We receive nothing but courtesy, co-operation and assistance from those at every level in the organisation. We should be very proud of the staff who work here in Leinster House.

It has been a fantastic year for Seanad Éireann. We have engaged in some wonderful debates and there have been some very interesting and, at times, robust exchanges. The public consultation sessions were most informative, helpful and innovative. The country made good progress during 2012. We have steadied the ship of state and achieved modest growth in respect of both the economy and employment. As previous speakers stated, we ended the year on a high note in the context of the negotiations relating to fishing quotas. I compliment the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, in this regard and echo the words of praise directed towards the Marine Institute which has its headquarters in Galway and the CEO of which is Mr. Peter Heffernan. The work done by the institute ensured that we obtained the very best possible outcome from the negotiations. The Minister was very gracious when he paid tribute to those at the institute this morning.

I am of the view that 2013 is going to be a wonderful year. We will have an opportunity to build on the positive things that happened during 2012. When Ireland assumes the Presidency of the European Union, it will be operating on the international stage. We will also have the opportunity to make significant economic progress in 2013. I urge all colleagues to remain safe on the roads during the Christmas period. In addition, all of us should keep an eye on vulnerable people during the holiday season. We should also think of those who are less fortunate than ourselves.

Senator Paul Bradford

I extend my best wishes for Christmas to colleagues and everyone associated with the House. Senator O'Keeffe referred to the meetings of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee, which were held in the Chamber, as one of the highlights of our work programme for the year. Those meetings were very effective. I do not know what sort of permission would be required - perhaps it would have to come from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, CPP, or the Cathaoirleach - but in view of the fact that the Seanad has shown itself to be the ideal forum for public consultation, I request that the Joint Committee on Health and Children be advised that the very important public hearings due to be held on 8, 9 and 10 January, inclusive, in respect of the abortion issue should be held here. There will be a massive amount of interest in those hearings, not just among members of the public but also among Oireachtas Members and they should take place in the Seanad Chamber rather than in the committee rooms. As everyone is aware, a maximum of 15 to 20 Members can be present and contribute at meetings held in the committee rooms. A significantly higher number of Deputies and Senators will wish to be involved in the hearings that are due to be held.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a procedure whereby an application can be made to the CPP in respect of the use of the Chamber.

Senator Paul Bradford

Would a request in that regard have to come to us or could we be proactive and-----

An Cathaoirleach

A request should be made to the CPP.

Senator Paul Bradford

Therefore, the Joint Committee on Health and Children should submit a request to the CPP.

An Cathaoirleach

A request will have to be made to the CPP.

Senator Paul Bradford

Perhaps the Leader will advise me on this matter. The joint committee has not yet made a decision on where the meetings in question should take place.

An Cathaoirleach

The joint committee can submit a request to the CPP for the use of the Seanad Chamber. However, there is no CPP meeting scheduled to be held before the middle of January.

Senator Paul Bradford

Will the Leader confirm that should a request be made, the CPP will have the capacity to consider it? This Chamber would be ideal in the context of encouraging a calm debate. All Members who wish to contribute could be present and could involve themselves in that debate. A committee room would not be the most suitable venue for such a truly important engagement.

Senator Paul Coghlan

I concur with the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition and everyone else in respect of the Cathaoirleach, Deirdre, Jody, Aisling, all of the other staff and Members. I extend my good wishes to everyone.

Reference was made earlier to public interest directors. There is no such thing in law as a public interest director. They are all non-executive-----

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Tell Senator Keane that.

Senator Cáit Keane

They are paid.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Of course they are paid; they are directors.

Senator Cáit Keane

Not all directors are paid.

(Interruptions).

Senator Paul Coghlan

Will the Senators hear me out? I seek the Cathaoirleach's protection.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Paul Coghlan to continue, without interruption.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Did the Senator buy 17% of Irish Life?

Senator Paul Coghlan

No. Let us be honest, the people to whom I refer are surplus to requirements.

Senator Martin Conway

Well said.

Senator Paul Coghlan

I have no doubt that the late Brian Lenihan - God be good to him - had very good intentions when he appointed the people in question. However, there is nothing to distinguish them from others. We thrashed this matter out yesterday with Mr. Ray MacSharry, who meant well and provided a good overview, and Ms Margaret Hayes. There is a need for fewer directors within these institutions and we certainly do not need public interest directors because they are all captured by the prevailing culture of the institutions to which they have been appointed.

Senator Cáit Keane

We must change the culture.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

If the Senator includes NAMA in that regard, we will support him.

Senator Paul Coghlan

I am simply explaining, for the benefit of all Senators, that the boards of these institutions rule by consensus. Everything is governed by loyalty.

Senator Cáit Keane

We must change the culture.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Mr. Ray MacSharry did not appreciate it when I informed him, with respect, that public interest directors were as useful as paps on a bull.

Senator Cáit Keane

We will have to change that.

(Interruptions).

Senator Terry Brennan

I thought Senator Paul Coghlan was being referred to as the Malawi bull.

Like previous speakers, I thank the Cathaoirleach and the staff of the House, those who work in the kitchens, the bar and the restaurant, the ushers and everyone else, for the courtesy shown to me during the past 12 months.

I refer to some good news relating to small and medium-sized businesses announced yesterday by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, and his Minister of State, Deputy Perry. I refer to the fact that small and medium-sized retail interests will be able to apply for all of their annual licences - we are all aware of the difficulties and requirements in this regard - via a single portal by the end of 2013.

This was a Government plan to reduce the administrative burden of licensing requirements. The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation said a key part of the Government's plan for jobs and growth was to reduce costs for businesses to make it easier for them to start up, expand and create the jobs we badly needed. Yesterday's announcement is part of a range of actions being taken by Government to improve competitiveness and to reduce red tape, including a series of tax measures aimed specifically at SMEs.

Ba mhaith liomsa a rá freisin Nollaig shona dhiabh go léir sa Teach seo, leis an gCathaoirleach agus gach duine. Le cúnamh Dé, beimid sa seomra seo ag an am seo arís.

Senator John Crown

I extend season's greetings to my colleagues and the staff in Leinster House.

There is one matter I did not have a chance to raise on the Order of Business although I alluded to it when the Minister for Health was present. I would like the Leader to get formal clarification from the Minister of the status of public patients in hospital who do not have medical cards. To my shame I was unaware of the financial and social service support lacuna in which these patients find themselves with daily charges for inpatient care to a maximum of €750 per annum and for day-care procedures of €75 to a maximum of €750 per annum. Many of us are under the illusion that patients have access to a completely free public health system if they elect to use it or they may take out private insurance if they so wish. While the system is largely supported and while the fees charged are not the real cost of their care, it is not a free service if they are being charged €75. Many of us were unaware of this because historically these charges have been unevenly applied, sought and pursued. In addition, there was a relatively liberal regime.

Members of this House and the Joint Committee on Health and Children are aware of multiple representations made by citizens about the difficulty of getting medical cards or having them renewed. It appears that the process has slowed down and it is hard to escape the conclusion that there is some policy involved and a greater level of scrutiny of these applications in view of the increased demand at a time of decreased resources. Cancer patients used to more or less automatically receive a medical card, regardless of means. This apparently is no longer the case. I do not wish to confine this request to the patients with the condition that I treat. I am sure it applies to patients with many other chronic illnesses. Many patients coming for chemotherapy, for example, may come every week for four or six weeks in a row. If that incurs a charge of €75 that represents a burden. The administration of one hospital, to its credit, has decided to charge only once. Others are not charging at all. It was reported during the week that some centres are sending out debt collection agents and threatening dunning letters to patients in this situation. At the same time they were giving patients the guarantee that they would not withdraw services. I would like to reassure patients that there is no evidence that their services will be withdrawn. Will the Leader, please, ask the Minister to clarify the following points. How much money is recouped from this scheme? How much is spent in engaging debt collection agencies? Do we have any evidence anywhere that patients are writing to say they are not following up on treatment?

I do not wish to show the Leader any disrespect, but I cannot stay to hear his reply today because I must attend the Joint Committee on Health and Children. I would be grateful, however, if he could pass on these questions to the Minister for Health.

Senator John Gilroy

It was with some disquiet, even dismay that I heard the comments of the public interest director, Mr. Ray MacSharry, to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. His words-----

An Cathaoirleach

There is a ruling on this issue already.

Senator John Gilroy

I understand that.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing individuals.

Senator John Gilroy

I understand that but it would be impossible for me to make this contribution without naming this individual. His comments were inappropriate at best, and at worst demonstrate "capture" by the banking industry which is contrary to what we would expect of a public interest director. I ask the Minister for Finance to remove this man immediately from his post. He should be sacked-----

An Cathaoirleach

There should be no discussion of individuals.

Senator John Gilroy

I have been-----

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the proceedings of a committee in the House either.

Senator John Gilroy

I am insisting that the Minister remove the public interest director from his position. He should be sacked with immediate effect.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

The Senator should say that to his face.

Senator John Gilroy

He is an ex-Fianna Fáil man.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

There is only one man responsible for the banking crisis in this country.

Senator John Gilroy

Bertie Ahern and the Fianna Fáil Party.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

His name is Michael Noonan. He is the Minister for Finance.

(Interruptions).

Senator John Gilroy

Amnesia is often positive.

A Senator

That is what the Senator is suffering from.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the banking crisis today. Does Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill have a question for the Leader?

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Since my learned colleague from County Kerry, Senator Paul Coghlan, seems to be moving in my direction by questioning some of the public interest directors, I ask him to move a little further and question the actions of NAMA which I have questioned several times. I reiterate my call of yesterday when I asked the Leader to bring in the one man in this country who is responsible for banking. AIB is 99.7% owned by the people.

Senator John Gilroy

Bertie Ahern is not coming here.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

There is only one person who can hold those banks to account, namely, the Minister for Finance, irrespective of whether he is from Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, the Green Party or the Labour Party. We need the Minister to come to the House to answer our serious questions about the banks, NAMA and other matters. If there are questions about the public interest directors they should be put to the Minister. I appeal to the Leader to arrange for that debate early in the new year.

Senator Maurice Cummins

We will do that.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I wish all my colleagues on both sides of the House a very happy Christmas. I am still waiting for the Christmas card from NAMA but I do not expect to get it this year. I wish the Cathaoirleach and all the staff in Seanad Éireann a very happy, peaceful and healthy Christmas.

Senator Colm Burke

I join my colleagues in wishing everyone a happy Christmas but we should also thank the people who work behind the scenes in the Bills Office, making sure that the documentation we receive is in order. I thank them for all their work in the past 12 months.

I do not agree with Senator Coghlan about the public interest directors. I served on a State board for ten years as a nominee of Cork City Council but my duty while serving on that board was to the board not to Cork City Council.

Senator Paul Coghlan

We are all equally bound by the law.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has had his say. Senator Colm Burke is to speak, without interruption.

Senator Colm Burke

I am addressing this issue from a legal point of view. People appointed to serve and look after the public interest play an important role and should be there. We may not agree with their decisions or how they arrive at them but they do serve a useful purpose.

In the past few weeks some people came to me who had a loan of €5,000 on which the bank took a write-down of €2,500. Their circumstances have changed and they are in a good position to borrow to buy property. It is appalling that because of that write-down the banks are treating them as unsuitable to borrow money. That is disgraceful and outrageous. These people want to borrow 40% of the value of the property and they have more than adequate security and income to support that. If we are going to discuss the banking sector before we talk about those who are insolvent let us talk about those who are capable of carrying the loans.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time.

Senator Colm Burke

I brought up the issue raised earlier by Senator Bradford at this morning's health committee meeting. The proposal for the meetings between 8 and 10 January is to allow groups to make a presentation on the issues that have to be dealt with and for Members to get clarification on them. This will allow us to draft the legislation in a careful way. It will be a useful exercise.

Senator Martin Conway

For many months, I have been standing up on the Order of Business questioning the role of the public interest directors in the banks.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing this issue on the Order of Business.

Senator Martin Conway

Hang on a second, a Chathaoirligh, I did not mention any name and I will not. I want due process also. I have spoken about the role of the public interest directors in the banks before and believe the whole lot of them should be sacked. We need to redefine the role of public interest directors and introduce legislation to ensure their main role and responsibility is to serve the interests of the public and the country, not the interests of the bank or its board of directors. As we saw yesterday with the behaviour of the public interest director in Bank of Ireland, their role is at variance with the public interest.

Will the Leader inquire of the Minister for Justice and Equality as to when we will see the legal services Bill? The legal profession is another rotten institution.

Senator Colm Burke

I object to that claim. It is outrageous.

Senator Martin Conway

I am entitled to my view.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is not under the protection of the House. That was a bit extreme.

Senator Martin Conway

Legal institutions need to be reformed.

Senator Rónán Mullen

One cannot libel an institution so easily.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Conway is generalising.

Senator Martin Conway

We have been promised the legal services Bill and I would like to see its introduction soon.

Yesterday, comments were made about Government Senators and their lack of attendance in the House. People have objected to universal payments and how wrong they are.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the issue of attendance in the House on the Order of Business.

Senator Martin Conway

Universal comments are wrong, too. I stand over my record in this House.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator mentioned that in the House yesterday.

Senator Martin Conway

I attend and speak in this House every day.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

We sure know the Senator attends every day.

An Cathaoirleach

This is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Senator Martin Conway

As far as I am concerned, my integrity and attendance here are relevant. I am proud of my record and will not have it denigrated.

An Cathaoirleach

We are on the Order of Business. I call on Senator Mullen.

Senator Martin Conway

With that, I wish you a happy Christmas, a Chathaoirligh.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I notice many of the happy Christmas greetings are coming with something else in the package. I also wish you, a Chathaoirligh, the excellent Deirdre, Jody and all the staff of the Seanad Office and colleagues a very happy Christmas and the best for 2013. I hope next year will be marked by robust debates. There are many serious issues for us to discuss and there will be times we have to disagree. I hope we can disagree without being disagreeable.

One of the highlights for this year was the visit of the head of the Orange Order to the House. It was a positive occasion for the Seanad but also a contribution to the ongoing process of reconciliation on this island. It is sad that we need to keep a watchful eye on a continuous basis on issues in the North of Ireland. Will the Leader organise a debate for early in the new year on the situation in the North? There are many problems arising with flags, emblems, riots and so on. It would be appropriate that we would continue to discuss these issues and make the contribution we can on this important issue.

I noted Senator Bradford's point about the possibility of health committee hearings taking place in this Chamber. We should be very open to that possibility. Even if matters are more rushed than they ought to be, it is important there is a display of openness. It is much easier for people to attend hearings in a forum like the Seanad Chamber than in a committee room. If there were any requests to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, CPP, for this, it would not be acceptable that this could not be dealt with because the committee will not meet until the end of January.

I want to raise another issue, an issue on which I have been somewhat remiss in not raising sooner with the CPP. We are losing our way slightly to some of the rules and procedures of the House. It is a matter we should address in the new year. It is entirely proper that privilege would never be abused by the making of comments in this House-----

An Cathaoirleach

We are on the Order of Business.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I am asking for the Leader to organise a discussion on this in the new year. It is entirely appropriate that any comments that would be libellous outside this House should be regarded as an abuse if privilege unless there is some compelling public-interest reason for making them. We must not allow ourselves get into a situation where we cannot even mention people in this House to criticise comments they have made in circumstances where we would be perfectly free to do so outside of the House.

An Cathaoirleach

This is a precedent of the House.

Senator Rónán Mullen

We have lost our way with some of the rules of debate here and it needs to be addressed early in the new year. We are at risk of tieing ourselves up in knots and bringing the Seanad into disrepute. It shows a lack of clear thinking on our part if we close down every debate simply because we think a Member will say something disobliging about somebody else. That is not the test.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I may well be but it is an important point. I wanted to bring it to the Cathaoirleach's attention in particular because he will play a significant role in any possible determination of this matter.

An Cathaoirleach

This is a precedent of the House.

Senator Rónán Mullen

This is a matter that should not only be discussed at the CPP.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time. I call Senator Healy Eames.

Senator Rónán Mullen

We should be clearer on this issue. On that note, I wish the Cathaoirleach a happy Christmas.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Like many homeowners, I am very concerned that the Bank of Ireland public interest director, Mr. Ray MacSharry, said that there would no debt forgiveness as a result of the insolvency Bill.

An Cathaoirleach

I have ruled on this issue.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This morning the Minister for Justice and Equality asked him to reconsider his comments. All sides of the House have worked hard to bring in legislation to help people dealing with crippling debts. Debt is the most significant issue facing the country. Comments such as this do not serve the public well. I ask Mr. MacSharry to withdraw his comments.

I commend the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Peter Heffernan, of the Marine Institute, a neighbour of mine in Renvyle, Oranmore, for the great deal they struck for Ireland on fishing quotas. They have gone from expecting a cut at the beginning of the week to a 6.5% increase in the quota. This is as a result of the great work the Marine Institute does in Oranmore. Its underwater camera footage produced the scientific evidence that got us the deal. That is an example of the knowledge economy serving us well.

I am delighted to wish every Member on all sides of the House a happy Christmas.

Senator Martin Conway

Well said.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

There are many arguments and sometimes things are said in the heat of the moment. A comment - “Where are the Senators?” - was made yesterday that was not meant the way it was said. That can easily be forgotten about at this point.

Senator Martin Conway

I will not forget it.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not having this debate.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The mark and the measure of this Seanad were seen yesterday on the Social Welfare Bill. I compliment Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Independents, my party and the Labour Party for rising together on this. We fought hard for €26 million for carers.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

That was hard.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The debate on the Bill will continue.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

That cut was not reversed.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It shows the spirit of this House.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

It shows the meanness of the Government.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I wish everyone a happy Christmas.

I also thank the staff who often go unthanked. This is a moment to say "Thank you" to Jody Blake, Deirdre Lane and the fine reporters who put our words on the record.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

I join my colleagues in calling for the Seanad Chamber to be used by the Joint Committee on Health and Children during its discussion of the forthcoming legislation on abortion. In agreeing with what Senator Mullen has said, we should not allow the fact that we are not scheduled to sit until the middle of January to prevent us from doing so. If a meeting needs to be held we should hold it, including today, if necessary.

I wish the Cathaoirleach, the Clerk and the Clerk Assistant, the Leader, the leaders of all the groups and the Whips - especially the Government Chief Whip and his deputy Whip - a happy Christmas and a peaceful new year.

Amnesia is a debilitating disease but political amnesia is the worst of all. A number of Members on the other side of the House should look into their own souls before commenting publicly on what public interest directors of banks or former Government Members did in the past.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I call the Leader, I join my colleagues in wishing everybody a happy Christmas and a prosperous new year. I pay tribute to the Leas-Chathaoirleach and all the Acting Chairmen for doing a wonderful job throughout the year. I thank the Leader of the House, the Leader of the Opposition, the leaders of the groups and the Whips for a very good year. I also thank the ushers for the great courtesy they show, the reporting staff who do a wonderful job, as has been outlined, the sound staff, who do a magnificent job, the media, including in particular Jimmy Walsh for reporting the House everyday and "Oireachtas Report", on which the Seanad gets a mention from week to week, and the library staff who provide great expertise and backup to Members. I thank the Clerk of the Seanad, Deirdre Lane, and the Clerk Assistant, Jody Blake, my secretary, Aisling Hart, and Debbie Canning, Rachel Breen and Karen Warren. I wish everyone a happy Christmas and a prosperous New year.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I hope that spirit of goodwill will continue throughout the day as we debate Bills.

Senator Darragh O'Brien spoke about taking Committee and Remaining Stages of the Finance (Local Property Tax) Bill 2012 today. We are dedicating as much, if not more, time to Committee and Remaining Stages of the Bill than was the case in the other House, although that is not the barometer I like to use to measure our business. We will have ample time to discuss amendments.

Senator Hayden outlined the many positive legislative measures debated in and passed by this House. She has rightly noted that bank debt and job creation remain the No. 1 priority for the Government and we hope to make significant progress in the coming year in both areas.

Senator Barrett has pointed out that the Houses of the Oireachtas legislation was debated at length in the Seanad. I did not read today's Irish Independent, but it is not correct to suggest it sneaked through both Houses of the Oireachtas or that it only imposed a cut of 2.5% in the budget of the Oireachtas. We were told by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform that the Bill provided for €60 million in savings compared with the previous Bill. Journalists can write whatever headlines they want. They seem to interpret matters in their own way, but I cannot do anything about what headlines they put in newspapers.

Senators Comiskey, O'Donovan, Healy Eames and others spoke about the good news on fish quotas. All of us would like to compliment the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, and the Marine Institute on their efforts. This is the second year in a row that we have enjoyed a very positive outcome from the talks. A debate on fisheries is overdue at this stage and we will arrange one early in the new term. As Senator O'Donovan pointed out, it makes sense to make agreements that last two or three years rather than renegotiate them annually because fishermen would have greater certainty. I am sure the Minister will take up this point during the debate.

Senator O'Keeffe spoke about the Seanad Public Consultation Committee. I thank the Senator for the excellent work she has done on that committee. She also reminded us about the young Senators who would be coming here in the new year. We look forward to that and I am sure Members will be keeping an eye on them because they may replace some of us in the future. I also commend the four entrepreneurs for the excellent work they are doing.

Senator Norris recalled the heroic teacher in Connecticut who had saved her students from a tragic and dreadful end. Our hearts go out to all of the families affected by that tragedy.

I am glad to hear from Members opposite that they are prepared to begin the debate on the Social Welfare Bill 2012 at section 5. It is ludicrous that we spent one hour debating the Title of the Bill on amendment No. 1.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I agree. Senator Bacik asked a lot of questions about the Title yesterday. The discussion was staged by the Labour Party to filibuster and waste time.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I hope we can do our job in a professional manner.

In regard to motion No. 12, the matter is before the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. We can discuss the motion in the first week of the new year.

Senator Noone and others spoke correctly about the need to monitor the Personal Insolvency Bill 2012 in order to plug any loophole.

Senator Cullinane spoke about the new starting salaries for nurses. I am not aware of the case he mentioned, but I understand the salary for young nurses starting this year will be €22,000.

Senator Keane and others referred to yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform on the role of directors of banks. It is clear there are differences of opinion in the House. We have had a number of debates on banking issues and I am sure there will be many more opportunities to raise issues pertaining to directors of banks with the Minister for Finance.

Senator Leyden spoke about the business of the House. It was wonderful to see 60 Members in the House. It was the first occasion in quite some time that we had had a full attendance for a debate on a Bill.

It was unfortunate that we had another very important Bill to deal with about two hours afterwards and the House was noticeably emptier for that debate.

Senator Terry Leyden also raised the issue of the release of prisoners for Christmas. As I stated yesterday, the same arrangements that obtained in previous years will obtain in that regard.

Senator Michael Mullins looks forward positively to 2013 and wishes God's blessing on the Irish Presidency of the European Union in the first six months of the year. We all look forward and wish the Government well in its endeavours in that regard.

Senator Paul Bradford asked about the public hearings with reference to the expert group's report. As far as I know, no request has been received from the committee by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges for the use of this Chamber. I think that committee is meeting today and I am sure that if the issue arises, it will be given consideration. However, there has been no request received from the committee for the use of this Chamber.

An Cathaoirleach

There is no meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges scheduled for today.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I am sorry about that.

Senator Paul Coghlan and others raised an issue regarding directors of banks and suggested some of them were surplus to requirements. These points can be made in a future debate on banking.

Senator Terry Brennan outlined the position on the announcement made yesterday by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, on cutting the red tape with regard to licensing requirements and applications from small and medium-sized enterprises. The reduction of bureaucracy to make life easier for small and medium-sized enterprises is welcome and of paramount importance.

Senator John Crown spoke about the status of public patients. There has been a massive increase in the numbers of medical cards allocated in the past couple of years. I did not get an opportunity to record the three questions the Senator asked me to put to the Minister for Health, but if he provides them for me, I will obtain answers for him.

Senator John Gilroy also raised the matter of bank directors. Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill raised the issue of amnesia and mentioned the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan. I do not think I should comment further on that issue. I commented on the suggestion of amnesia last night.

Senator Colm Burke complimented the Bills Office which he has kept very busy in preparing a Private Members' Bill that he has ready for introduction in the new year. He also outlined the plight of those whose debts were written down by the banks and could not get credit to buy a property.

Senator Martin Conway said we needed to change legislation dealing with bank directors. This is a matter that can be discussed in a debate on banking in the new year. I will find out why the Legal Services Bill has not been brought before the House. It is an important Bill and should be brought before the House early in the new term. I will get back to the Senator on the matter and notify him when we expect to have the legislation before us.

Senator Rónán Mullen called for a debate on Northern Ireland which we can arrange in the new year.

On the abuse of privilege, Senator Michael Mullins is a member of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Any proposal he has to make will certainly be considered by it.

I wish everybody a very happy Christmas and a peaceful new year. I have responded to most of the issues raised. Unfortunately, I cannot accept the amendment proposed to the Order of Business.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

In the spirit of Christmas, forget about using the guillotine.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

The Seanad divided: Tá, 32; Níl, 20.

Tá

• Bacik, Ivana.
• Brennan, Terry.
• Burke, Colm.
• Clune, Deirdre.
• Coghlan, Eamonn.
• Coghlan, Paul.
• Comiskey, Michael.
• Conway, Martin.
• Cummins, Maurice.
• D'Arcy, Jim.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Gilroy, John.
• Harte, Jimmy.
• Hayden, Aideen.
• Healy Eames, Fidelma.
• Henry, Imelda.
• Higgins, Lorraine.
• Keane, Cáit.
• Landy, Denis.
• Mac Conghail, Fiach.
• McAleese, Martin.
• Moloney, Marie.
• Moran, Mary.
• Mulcahy, Tony.
• Mullins, Michael.
• Noone, Catherine.
• O'Keeffe, Susan.
• O'Neill, Pat.
• Sheahan, Tom.
• van Turnhout, Jillian.
• Whelan, John.
• Zappone, Katherine.

Níl

• Barrett, Sean D.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Crown, John.
• Cullinane, David.
• Daly, Mark.
• Leyden, Terry.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Mooney, Paschal.
• Mullen, Rónán.
• Norris, David.
• Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
• Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
• O'Donovan, Denis.
• Quinn, Feargal.
• Reilly, Kathryn.
• Walsh, Jim.
• White, Mary M.
• Wilson, Diarmuid.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Paschal Mooney and Diarmuid Wilson.

Question declared carried.