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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Feb 2013

Vol. 220 No. 10

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the private rented sector, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 1.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, with the Minister being called upon to reply no later than 1.35 p.m.; a sos will be taken between 1.45 p.m. and 4.30 p.m.; No. 2, Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 4.30 p.m. and to adjourn at 6 p.m., if not previously concluded, with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes; and No. 33, Private Members' business, to be taken at 6 p.m. and to conclude no later than 8 p.m.

I assume that the Minister for Defence, Deputy Shatter, will be in attendance for the Second Stage debate on the Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012.

Can he confirm if he will be here for our Private Members' motion on justice as well?

Second, I thank the Leader for his response yesterday with regard to the abolition of exceptional needs payments for religious ceremonies such as first communions and confirmations. For the information of the House, I have received written confirmation from the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, that her Department is ceasing those payments to families who require them so their children can be clothed appropriately for first communions, confirmations and other religious ceremonies. Most of us said yesterday that we were very disappointed with this move. Would it be possible to arrange for the Minister to come to the House in the next week to discuss this issue and why the Government or her Department has not made a specific statement on it? Last year, the payment was cut to €110 but now it has been abolished. Will the Leader schedule time in the next week or so for this? It would save me moving an amendment to the Order of Business, which I will not do this morning, asking the Minister to come to the House to address this issue.

Third, and most important, I wish to raise the report published yesterday on the Magdalen laundries. As I said yesterday, successive Governments over the last 40 years have failed these ladies. There is no question about that. All parties that have been in government over that period, including my party, share the blame for not acting sooner on this very serious issue. It is important to put on the record my personal and my party's grave disappointment with the Taoiseach's reaction to the publication of the report yesterday and that an apology was not issued on behalf of the State. Most people will have seen and heard the reactions on television, radio and in the print media this morning, of the many women who were effectively incarcerated in these institutions against their will. At the very least, the Taoiseach should have given a fulsome apology on behalf of the State and not just say he was sorry that women lived in that environment and under those circumstances. That is not good enough, and we are gravely disappointed with it.

It is a very detailed report, just short of 1,000 pages. All Members of the Oireachtas must read it, including the Taoiseach. I assume that the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, will take the debate on it when it is scheduled in this House and I hope she will give an apology at that stage on behalf of her Department. However, if the Taoiseach did not consider it appropriate yesterday to give an apology on behalf of the State, and I do not know why he did not, he will have a second opportunity to do so when the debate on the report is held in the Dáil in two weeks. I ask the Leader to urge him, on behalf of our group in the Seanad and on behalf of all Senators, to use that opportunity, after reading the full report, to provide the apology that is absolutely required for these ladies.

Most days when one comes to work here one is glad and proud to be Irish. Unfortunately, however, yesterday was not one of those days. The day was punctuated by the McAleese report, which is an indictment of not just politics, politicians and Governments but also society in general. It goes to show that we should not always run with the conventional wisdom or herd mentality of the day about what is right or best for people. It underscores for Senators the importance of speaking out at the time, not retrospectively.

The McAleese report on the Magdalen laundries is a sordid and shameful chapter in Irish history. The hurt, harm and horror inflicted on these women is an indictment of all of us. We should not add insult to injury now by equivocating in any way. I second the call by Labour Youth and Labour Women for the Government to apologise unreservedly to these women. The Taoiseach is a kind, caring and compassionate man. Whoever is advising him that it would be unwise to apologise is not correct. He should go with his heart on this matter. The people of this country would be thankful to him if he apologised to the Magdalen women on behalf of the State.

This Government has been in office for two years. It is two years since both the Labour Party and Fine Gael promised to radically reform our health services. I believe we have, perhaps, taken two steps forward and three steps backward. Unfortunately, we still have a two-tier system in which the people who get the best and earliest care are those who can pay the most. As we have seen from the recent hike in VHI fees, more people are dropping out of the private system and putting pressure and a further burden on the public system, leading to longer queues and longer delays. I am not surprised. I do not know how the system works at all. A constituent reported to me that they received a folio from the VHI which stated that an ambulance that transported a woman from the midlands to a hospital in Dublin cost €1,900. No system can sustain that.

I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Health, who has a thankless task, to the House to set out his vision and strategy for how the reforms will proceed. Senator Eamonn Coghlan raised an interesting point yesterday. Money is being stripped from productive hospitals that are doing a good job while hospitals that are not as effective and productive are being rewarded. We have been promised radical reform in terms of the appointment of multidisciplinary teams, but that has not happened. Furthermore, 18 months later I am still waiting for the Minister to make an announcement about community nursing homes, particularly with regard to hospitals such as those in Abbeyleix and Shane, Portlaoise. People need to know where they stand. It would be welcome if the Minister for Health came to the House, set out his stall, told us what progress has been made and explained the roadmap and timeframe for the other reforms.

Ryanair is once more attempting a hostile takeover of Aer Lingus. Mr. Michael O'Leary is a very clever and competent business man, but this is nothing other than the calculated dismemberment of our national airline. Ryanair started as an Irish airline but it is now a multinational concern, with all the voracious appetites that, perhaps appropriately, go with this. It is quite extraordinary that a gift of €100 million will apparently be made to a moth-eaten, decrepit British airline to prop it up and make it some type of artificial competitor with Aer Lingus. What happens if, after the cannibalisation of Aer Lingus, Flybe flies off and disappears? The €100 million investment might well prove to be very worthwhile for Mr. O'Leary, who is clever and calculating, as business men must be.

I take this opportunity to welcome the overwhelming vote in the House of Commons yesterday in favour of gay marriage. This can be put in the context that for the first time President Obama referred to this situation and endorsed gay marriage. Recent polls have shown that approximately 75% of Irish people support it as well. During the discussion this morning it was mentioned that this would be one of the principal items of discussion in the convention on the Constitution. I was part of that and I spoke quite effectively, I believe, and got things changed at the first meeting - I will return again for something else - but I have been dislodged from speaking on this subject and will be replaced by my colleague, Senator Rónán Mullen. I have always considered it important to include people who have a particular expertise in an area. I have a particular interest because, first, I produced the first legislation in this area. It was quite historic in this country and it was discussed on a number of occasions in this House. It put the bomb under the Government that moved it in this direction. I will not speak at length about what I think of the suitability of the two people who showed an interest in this area. Anybody who wishes to know my views need only consult the record and see the very different positions taken by Senator Mullen and me on this issue when it was discussed. People would be well advised to look at what was said in that debate.

However, I have every confidence in the Irish people. Having attended the convention, I believe it will emerge with a view that reflects the views of 75% of the people on this island.

I congratulate former Senator Martin McAleese on producing his 1,000 page report yesterday. It is important that we all read it. I hope, having read it, we will all have an opportunity at the appropriate time to make meaningful and thoughtful contributions on it. It is important that the women who helped the former Senator to compile the report be acknowledged, as it cannot have been easy for them. They made a very important contribution and shone a light on a period that was not a very proud one in our history. As a nation, we failed those to whom the State had a duty of care.

I have read the summary of the report, but have not read the report in detail. It points to the role of the State in the sending of many women to the laundries. The Government should now consider how it can support them in the light of their experiences. It should offer them appropriate support and a means of reconciliation, which I am sure will be forthcoming. We should all read the report and reflect on it. It covers a difficult period in our history, but it is important that the facts be made known. I sincerely thank former Senator Martin McAleese for his contribution in that regard.

Is it possible to bring forward the debate on the report on the Magdalen laundries? The timing of its release has not been helpful. It was released after a Cabinet meeting that the Attorney General attended. It was quite evident that the latter put constraints on the Taoiseach. The victims, the survivors, must have been absolutely stunned by the tone of the Taoiseach's comments in the Dáil. We know he is a compassionate man, as has been said, but it might have been better if the Government had considered the 1,000 page document and then entered debate straightaway. Further injury is being inflicted on the survivors. To realise this, we have only to recall some of yesterday's television programmes, in which one could see what I describe in the faces of some of the survivors. They would have received a briefing in advance and been expecting a full response from the Government, but it did not come. Consequently, they were absolutely shattered by what they were hearing and seeing. It is a very complex issue. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, put his finger on it this morning on radio when he said this was not the stuff of films but the stuff of individuals suffering, not only the survivors but also the families of people who had already died, including former inmates of the Magdalen laundries. We are talking about an apology which I still believe could be forthcoming today. The legalese is not necessary; that can follow subsequently when talking about recompense for the affected individuals who suffered so much.

In the hiatus in the next two weeks all kinds of emotional elements will come to the fore. Yet again, the victims and sufferers will be the survivors, which nobody genuinely wants. Incidentally, we owe a debt of gratitude to the Government, as it brought forward the report which it produced after a very short time in office and deserves credit for having done so. If we do nothing in the next 24 or 48 hours, we will do further damage. I refer not only to the 100-plus individuals who came forward but to the hundreds who have not come forward at all, as is their entitlement. They are suffering privately and, to all intents and purposes, have tried to black out a portion of their innocent lives. If we want to give due recognition to the wonderful work done by former Senator Martin McAleese and his team, we should not do so in two weeks but immediately.

I join Senator John Whelan in calling for a full apology. Everybody in the State, including the Taoiseach, is of the opinion that the women in question and their families suffered for a long time. On reflection, an apology will be forthcoming. It has to be made because the period of our history in question must be acknowledged. I credit the Government for producing the report and former Senator Martin McAleese for presenting it yesterday. I fully support the sentiments of all Deputies and Senators on the issue.

I ask that the Minister for Health come to the House to explain the budgetary increases and decreases announced on Monday. Letterkenny General Hospital has been subject to an increase of 7%, owing to efficiencies and the hard work of staff and management. It is a credit to them. I caution the Opposition which was very quick off the mark to criticise the Minister for the announcement concerning Mr. Tony O'Brien from the HSE. I ask the Minister to explain the procedure to the Opposition. Mr. O'Brien, CEO of the HSE, explained it very well on "Six One News" on Monday evening. He stated categorically that no representations had been made to him by any Minister or politician on the budgets. This is the way forward. With respect to Fianna Fáil, it probably would have expected the Minister to have had a serious influence when it was in power, but Mr. O'Brien knocked that thinking on the head. The Minister should explain the procedure to us.

He got the job without an interview and public consultation. He was the Minister's friend.

Members of this and the other House have raised issues concerning the recently issued report on the Magdalen laundries. I ask the Leader to try to obtain for me the answer to some very specific questions.

I am interested in the financial investigation into the various organisations and the laundries. I refer, in particular, to the evidence to support the assertion that the laundries were run at subsistence level, for a small profit or, in some cases, at a loss. From first principles, it does not seem credible that organisations which had State-funded contracts with other organisations that they owned were not actually generating a profit. Many of the religious orders which ran the laundries also ran the hospitals and had the gift of the contracts for laundry services for hospitals and other institutions, using taxpayers money and at the same time employing staff who were effectively working for free. It is possible that there were non-profit-generating work practices and that the overall ethos of the institutions was such that they were not trying to generate a profit, but, in the light of the fact that the work practices and contractual arrangements were so unusual, there is a need for a detailed forensic analysis of the financial statements included in the report. We do not get this in the report. If I am not misreading it, the only accountancy input comprises reports from the paid accountants who worked for the religious orders which were being investigated. We all know that accountants have an attorney-client relationship. They act for the client, not for any disinterested third party. Asking them to provide the detailed financial analysis of the state of the laundries' finances is inadequate. Clarification is, therefore, required.

I am very troubled by the composition of the committee, the members of which were drawn entirely from the Civil Service. The committee's remit was to investigate the involvement of the State in a matter reported at a level as high as the United Nations. It is a matter that caused the State to suffer a substantial reputational hit.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Will the Leader seek clarification from the Minister for Justice and Equality on the procedure involved in choosing the members of the committee?

Was there any expert accounting forensic analysis available to the committee or did it simply accept what the orders' accountants gave them at face value?

I wish to be associated with remarks on the McAleese report which, of all things, will be an indictment of the history of this nation. When people read the McAleese report in 100 years time, they will say there were problems in regard to the Church and the State. I hope this report gives some comfort to the survivors. Whether it involved one person or 6 million people, this will go down in the same way as the way Negroes were treated and enslaved and the way the Holocaust developed and the Jews were persecuted. This was the persecution of people who were in a vulnerable state in our country. I would welcome a debate on the matter and I will leave it up to the Leader as to when we have it. The report runs to 1,000 pages and it will take us a while to read through it and make sure we take it all in.

I refer to a statement made last week in the other House by the Sinn Féin deputy leader that there is a difference between the murder of a PSNI or RUC man and a garda. Is this Sinn Féin policy?

Do you have a question for the Leader?

Will the Leader ask the Sinn Féin Members if they will clarify their positions in regard to this matter?

The McAleese report released yesterday vindicates what the Magdalen women have been saying for a decade that the State was complicit in their detention, in their routes of entry into the laundries and in the direct State funding of the laundries. Nowhere was that more relevant and true than in the laundry in my home city of Waterford. If the Leader has read the report, he will see in the context of referrals from the courts and when women were sent to these laundries through the courts system, that the report makes particular note of this high practice in Waterford.

This whole episode is a blot on the history of this State and that is why many people were deeply disappointed with the Taoiseach's response yesterday. They were looking for the Taoiseach of this country to apologise, on behalf of the people of this State, to the women who suffered in these laundries. I accept fully the women's testimony when they say they were kept in these places against their will and that they were forced to work for nothing - a form of slave labour - that they were mistreated and that they were victims of physical and emotional abuse. All of those survivors and their families deserve an unequivocal apology by the Taoiseach of this State for what happened. He cannot say this was wrong and condemn what happened but not apologise on behalf of the State. I take the opportunity to appeal to the Leader to appeal to the Taoiseach to make that apology to the survivors and the victims, many of whom live in the Leader's home city of Waterford.

I wish to be associated with the comments made on the Magdalen laundries and confirm to the House that the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, when asked by Ray D'Arcy on radio in the past hour whether there would be an apology said she believed there would be.

Why would she not say it in the House rather than on Ray D'Arcy's programme on Today FM?

Senator Landy, without interruption.

In regard to the comments made by the Senator on the other side of the House-----

Have you a question for the Leader?

I am entitled to answer somebody when-----

Do you have a question?

In regard to what was said by the Senator on other side of the House, he asked a question and is getting the answer but he is not satisfied.

The Leader will respond. Do you have a question for the Leader?

If the Cathaoirleach keeps stopping me, I will not have a question. I will sit down altogether because he will not allow me to speak.

In many ways, it is ironic that it is not long since the children's referendum which placed a constitutional obligation on the State to protect children. When the State or a person fails in its or his or her duty, it or he or she should apologise. When the Minister for Justice and Equality was in opposition, he described the State as being directly responsible for barbaric cruelty yet in a position of responsibility in government, he rode back from all he had said. The Taoiseach rightly rebuked the Vatican when it failed the children of this country by refusing to fully participate in tribunals of inquiry and investigations into what the Church had done. However, when the State, for which he is responsible, is found to have been responsible for incarcerating women in the most cruel of circumstances, described by his Minister for Justice and Equality in opposition as barbaric, the Taoiseach is not able to apologise fully.

Have you a question for the Leader?

Will the Leader arrange a debate?

It is ironic that today we will issue an apology to those who deserted the Irish Army to join the British Army. Their treatment was cruel and unusual and we are giving them an apology. Is it not ironic that we are giving an apology to people who deserted the Irish Army yet women who did nothing wrong but who were treated so cruelly by the Irish State are not afforded an apology by the Taoiseach? I find that ironic and appalling. Will the Leader organise a debate as soon as possible on the lack of an apology to those who were sent to the Magdalen laundries? The State failed these women and, at the very least, they deserve an apology.

Former Senator McAleese has done the State some service. His report records a blight on our social history - on the Ireland which we have come from. It showed that more than 10,000 women were committed to the Magdalen laundries, one of which was in Galway from where I come. More than one quarter of these women were referrals made by the State. What is significant about this report is that all of these victims were women and children. It is clear they are still hurting and suffering. We know that an apology goes an awfully long way towards healing and they deserve it and should get it. Will the Government seriously reflect on giving them that apology so they can get peace of mind and heal? Will the Leader arrange a full debate and seek clarity from the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, on the entitlements these women currently receive from the State? These Irish women were in servitude to this State. That is not something of which we should be proud and they deserve an apology.

I join with Senator Whelan's call for a debate on the state of our health service. Many of us, in particular myself, have been critical of what I describe as a headless chicken approach. The Minister for Health pontificates on a regular basis about the strategic approach he is taking and promised free GP care would be rolled out by the last quarter of 2012 at the latest. We have heard much about universal health care. We have a manifesto and a programme for Government which pronounced the importance of keeping people in their homes yet we proceed to cut home help hours, thus increasing pressure on acute hospitals which are already running over budget. Senator Whelan mentioned some of that.

We have a hospitals capital programme that appears to follow the geographic trail of the Cabinet table rather than taking a strategic approach to the selection processes, as we have seen in Wexford and Kilkenny, and also the primary care centres. That is before we even get into the pre-election porky pies which Senator Kelly and I know all about in the context of cancer services in Sligo hospital or accident and emergency services in Roscommon hospital.

With regard to a chief executive officer of an interim health service indicating he has not been lobbied by any Government Minister, I would submit he was told, "This is what you are doing" because while not wishing to impugn that particular individual's character or professionalism, he did not apply for that job, was not interviewed for that job but was simply put into it by the Minister of the day, which is wrong. I agree with Senator Whelan that we need to have a debate here. We must begin to take a strategic approach and not the old Cabinet cronyism approach, and certainly not the headless chicken approach we have seen taken by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, so far.

Following the public consultation in this House on the issue of cancer, which was important and successful, the Leas-Chathaoirleach as we speak is launching a report that states that changes in lifestyle can prevent up to one third of cancers. It is important that we acknowledge that. The public consultation was a good day's work for this House and we have seen the fruits of it today. It would be worthwhile debating the report here at an early date if that were possible. It is important to acknowledge how it has been received when one considers that John McCormack, the chief executive officer of the Irish Cancer Society, and a former colleague and Senator who is head of advocacy, Kathleen O'Meara, are here for that launch.

Along with other Members I support the call for a Government apology for those who were institutionalised in the Magdalen laundries.

I support Senator John Whelan's call for a debate on the future of our health service, which appears to be semi-privatised as we speak when we consider the following: closure of public nursing homes and the supporting of private nursing homes; the Health Service Executive paying €25 per hour to private operators to provide home help hours when they will not pay €12 an hour to its own employees; and, as Senator Whelan mentioned, the €1,900 it costs for an ambulance to bring somebody to Dublin, which probably equates to a week's salary for three paramedics. It is simply not justifiable.

I spoke to a woman recently who told me that she had a hysterectomy in a private hospital in Galway. She spent three nights in the hospital and received fantastic care but for the bed alone she was charged €20,000.

That is not possible.

It is unbelievable. The end result is that the ordinary Joe Soap with private health insurance will pay for the health service in the future. We need to address that, and that is the reason we must have a debate on it in this House.

I call on the Leader to see if we can get clarity from the Minister for Health on what we are doing about the mobility allowance. The Ombudsman found we were illegally ensuring that people over the age of 66 who were the most in need of the allowance were being deprived of it by virtue of their age. I would appreciate it if the Leader could have that question put to the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and perhaps at some stage in the future when he comes into the House he might have answers for us on it.

There was a very interesting debate in the European Parliament some weeks ago about the rating agencies. The crackdown on rating agencies it called for is interesting because it is blaming agencies like Fitch, Standard & Poor's and Moody, which have 95% of the market, for taking a lax attitude to the sub-prime debt which arose in 2007-8 that caused the financial crisis. That debate came to the conclusion that something must be done about it. I wonder if we should have a debate on that topic in this House or perhaps in the finance committee. Senator Norris has called for such a debate on a number of occasions in recent years. I do not know enough about it but I am sure Senator Barrett and others would give us a very good insight into it. I would welcome a debate on that topic because if there is a 95% monopoly in any trade, and certainly in an area such as this one that can do so much harm, it is time we examined it with a professional eye. A debate would open the door to that.

Along with others I would like to see an apology given to the women institutionalised in the Magdalen laundries, and I believe that will come in due course in an appropriate manner. I urge that that would happen, perhaps during the Oireachtas debates a few weeks from now. I would also like to see these women recompensed financially in some way. A redress scheme is appropriate when we consider the billions of euro spent and squandered on this country's banks and the way our citizens, who are the most vulnerable and the most challenged, were treated. Some form of redress scheme would be appropriate to recognise the terrible suffering highlighted in the McAleese report, which I urge all Members to study in the coming days to ensure we can all participate in a full debate in this House which I know the Leader will organise in due course.

Ba mhaith liom aontú leis na Seanadóirí atá tar éis iarraidh ar an Taoiseach leithscéal a ghabháil le mná na neachtlanna Mhaigdiléana tar éis don tuairisc a bheith foilsithe inné.

I also look forward at some stage in the future to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister from the North coming here for a debate in which they could elucidate for Senator O'Neill the difference between the RUC and the PSNI. That the two organisations stood shoulder to shoulder on the death of PSNI officers recently is a testament in itself.

I wish to air my disappointment that the Older and Bolder organisation will cease activities in the middle of this year. I appreciate that the funding for Older and Bolder has come from an outside source but it raises the issue of the state of play in the State regarding community and voluntary sector organisations. We are seeing a decay of those organisations as a result of the impact of austerity on them and on funding and it would be important that we have a debate on those community and voluntary sector organisations. In many cases they have been the voices crying out and organising rallies against the austerity budgets and some of the cuts that have been brought in. It is ironic that some of the more vocal groups are the ones that are going by the wayside at a time when we most need them.

It is ironic also that the Labour Party Senators are complaining this morning about the health budgets, etc., when they did not have much to say when the health budget was being put through the House before Christmas, but that stance will speak for itself.

I agree with the other Senators, including Senator Martin Conway, who said it is a sad day for Ireland but particularly for the women who were incarcerated in those laundries for all those years. Calling for an apology is one thing but Senator Martin Conway was the only Senator who mentioned compensation which is tangible acknowledgement of wrongdoing. In addition to calling for an apology we will have to examine the report.

We are all calling on the State to say "Sorry" but it is not only the State that should say "Sorry". The institutions, the nuns and everyone involved should say "Sorry". As a society we should all say "Sorry". Actions speak louder than words. Words are easy but it is the action taken that is important. A considered debate on this issue in the Seanad, as the Leader has promised, and a follow up will be very important.

I raise the issue of the new junior certificate framework. The first students who will be involved in this will be the intake of September 2014. We have all spoken about the importance of physical education, PE, in schools, and Senator Eamonn Coghlan in particular, for the health of the nation because in the new junior certificate framework PE will now have the diminished status of a short course with a time allocation of just 100 hours over a two to three year period. Currently, only 10% of schools are implementing the minimum recommendation of 120 minutes per week.

The Department of Education and Skills says one thing. Is physical education important or is it not? The Department of Health advises one to get out on one's bicycle. This is false economy. The two Departments must work together because the children's national physical education study states that three out of four Irish adults and four out of five Irish children do not meet the guidelines. The recent report also showed that one in four children was unfit, overweight or obese. Children cannot learn if they are unfit. What does adrenaline do for education? Senator Eamonn Coghlan is tired asking for this to happen. I ask the Ministers for Education and Skills and Health to draw up a coherent policy on physical education and let us have the debate as called for by many Senators. It is going in the opposite direction and we have to change it. It is not too late yet for the 2014 curriculum.

I share the comments made on all sides of the House in regard to the publication of the McAleese report and commend the former Senator on his diligence and commitment in this regard. In light of the wave of media attention that has rightly focused on this tragic episode in recent Irish history, the House should be aware that yesterday afternoon the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, of which Senators Brian Ó Domhnaill, Pat O'Neill and I are members, spent more than four hours listening to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, and Professor Alan Reilly, chief executive of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland outline the current situation on what could be a potentially disastrous episode impacting on Irish agriculture.

There are more than 200,000 people employed in agriculture, generating €9 billion in exports. The issue is getting worse rather than better. I commend the Minister, his officials, and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland on their efforts but how long more will the saga drag on? The Minister is sticking rigidly to the view that the horse DNA emanated from Poland and has the documentation to prove it. The Polish authorities deny that. The indication appears to be that somewhere along the food chain, traces of horsemeat and pork were introduced which leads to possible allegations of corrupt practices.

There are more than 140 people employed in the Silvercrest facility in Monaghan and there has been little discussion on the impact this saga is having on them and their families and the uncertain future they are facing. I was reassured by the Minister yesterday. I and other Members will be surprised to hear that this plant is not only a state-of-the-art facility specifically for the processing of beefburgers but the most advanced plant in the world. It is currently operating at 50% of its overall capacity but has now lost more than €30 million in food contracts to various multiples. That Tesco withdrew its €15 million contract after the management had been changed and the new procedures introduced raises questions as to why it did so. If it had done so before one could understand.

In light of this, I ask that the House be kept regularly informed of the issue. I hope we will not have to be regularly informed. I hope the Minister, his officials and the Garda authorities who are now involved, will accelerate the investigations and bring the matter to a speedy conclusion, otherwise Ireland's image as a green island and its food exports will be damaged. The sooner the issue is grappled with, the sooner the investigation will be concluded. If the Minister is coming to the House, I ask that he keep the House informed in order to maintain the pressure on all the relevant State agencies to conclude the issue quickly. I support the view of our spokesperson on agriculture, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, who is a member of the committee, in calling for an independent investigation. If one person is given a timeline and access, the entire issue can be dealt with in a month or six weeks which, in my opinion, is too long.

Yesterday we paid tribute to former Senator Martin McAleese which largely had to do with his detailed work on the Magdalen laundries report. We should be careful not to impugn his or his team's integrity. I believe they gave a fair and accurate assessment of what happened within the terms of reference. Yes, that was a huge blot on the State and certainly there were barbaric and horrific practices involved. I am saddened that some Members are, in effect, playing politics with the issue. They are implying that the Taoiseach was personally responsible. He has said sorry, and I believe-----

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

That apology is inherent in everything he has said.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I have. He is a compassionate and kind man and that has been agreed.

That is not the point.

In the debate that will follow there will be further responses and I urge caution.

I join colleagues in expressing dissatisfaction at the lack of a full and comprehensive apology by the Taoiseach yesterday, following publication of the excellent report carried out by former Senator Martin McAleese and his team, which vindicated what had being said by many families, parents and the women down through the years. As outlined by Senator Ó Murchú, the advice of the Attorney General was probably sought at the Government meeting yesterday on the question of compensation. That is a narrow way of looking at the issue. The issue is about closure, providing forgiveness and reassurance and, as one lady said yesterday on radio, the State wrapping its arms around us again. That was not done yesterday which was a mistake. I hope the Taoiseach will reflect on it. I understand he will look comprehensively at the documentation but he would be better advised to listen to some of the victims and respond more quickly than is proposed. Whether the issue of compensation arises, those people deserve compensation if it is to be made available. That should not be an issue.

I call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Education and Skills to the House to discuss the new means-testing arrangement which he is due to bring to Cabinet this month for including farmland and assets of the self-employed in consideration for third level grants. That would mean students from farming backgrounds would be unable to go to third level education. The Minister does not appear to have any idea of the implications of the proposal. I appeal to the Leader to liaise with the Minister's office as to when the proposal is due to go before Cabinet and allow us have our say before that occurs.

I join colleagues in congratulating and complimenting former Senator Martin McAleese and his team on the publication of the report yesterday. The facts and scale of the Magdalen laundries scandal are known. It is appropriate that the Government would take time to analyse the comprehensive report and give its response. It should not be forgotten that this is the first Government in the history of the State to tackle the issue. I remind Senator Ó Domhnaill that his colleagues sat on their backsides for 14 years and did absolutely nothing for those vulnerable people who have suffered so much at the hands of the State.

How many of them died?

An apology is important and I have no doubt it will come. However, an apology must mean more than words. It is appropriate and the Taoiseach has a responsibility to ensure that when he gives that apology he has put in place some supports and benefits for the people who have suffered much. He also has a responsibility to act on behalf of the State which is broke. We have to put in place an appropriate apology and supports that we can afford. As stated, the Taoiseach is a caring person who will do the right thing for those people who deserve to be treated properly. For decades they have been left in a state of limbo where nobody appeared to care or did nothing for them until this Government took decisive action.

I would like to follow up on what my colleagues have said about the Magdalen laundries and the ladies who were incarcerated in these gulags. I have to say our reputation has been sullied once more. Holy Ireland used to be known around the world as a holier-than-thou Catholic country, but it has become totally clear that the human rights of women and children were denied and that sexual abuse took place in many institutions. My former colleagues in the Oireachtas, Tom Kitt and Michael Kennedy, valiantly established an ad hoc Oireachtas committee to seek justice for the Magdalens. They were stonewalled by civil servants who briefed their Ministers and did not want to upset the apple cart. We need an investigation into Departments that stymie development. I had a go at the Secretary General of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation yesterday. These civil servants hold back our country in more ways than one. In years to come, this will be investigated.

I have to say that various Fianna Fáil Ministers failed to follow this issue up because they were afraid of what would happen. They did not have the political guts to speak the truth regardless of the repercussions. I will set out what has to be done. Of course we all want the Taoiseach to give a full apology. These women, many of whom are very old and some of whom are in my age group, do not want to go to their death beds without getting an apology from the State. Those who worked in these laundries as slave labour should be able to die in peace when the time comes. The departmental officials who went to investigate the laundries did not give a damn that the women were not being paid. As they were not paying social welfare, they were not entitled to claim pensions. That needs to be resolved. I want a full State apology to be given and recompense to be paid. These women should be able to spend the rest of their lives in proper physical accommodation.

I would like to conclude by mentioning another bête noire of mine. On 25 May, the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, Mr. Seán Aylward, told the-----

I remind the Senator that we refrain from mentioning people's names on the record of the House.

-----UN committee against torture in Brussels that a small number of the women in Magdalen laundries were there because they were forced by the State. He should be brought in here-----

Senator, you are way over time.

-----to accept that 2,146 human beings were put into Magdalen laundries by the State.

Yesterday was another sad day for this country. Our international image as the land of saints and scholars, which we enjoyed for a long time, is long gone as a consequence of the many reports that have been released in recent years. We are too quick to hand responsibility for everything to the State. As a society, we must read and take stock of this report. It makes it clear the Catholic Church, society at large and the Government were responsible for the horrific and barbaric treatment of these women. We all must reflect on the inescapable fact that this was tantamount to slavery. It is very important for the issue of compensation to be addressed. While it is easy to say that the State should wrap its arms around these women and apologise to them, it is important for a full and meaningful apology to be extended to them, as Senator Mullins said. As Senator Keane said, the provision of compensation is the only tangible way for the State to show it is truly sorry for what these women endured. The pensions issue has been mentioned. Quite simply, these women should be paid for the work they did. They were treated as slaves. The reality is that they need to be compensated for the work they did. Their abandonment by the State also needs to be addressed in this way. We really need to have a debate on the matter in the House. The Taoiseach's suggestion that the report should be digested in some way is very important. I hope a debate can be facilitated, perhaps next week.

I welcome this report. It is long overdue. I pay tribute to Senator Ó Murchú, who summed it up very well. In fairness, the Government should have taken two weeks to consider the matter before dealing with it comprehensively, rather than having the report published at this stage. The demand was for it to be published as soon as it was made available to the Government. That is what the Government did. Some of those who have come in here to criticise the Taoiseach are members of a party that did absolutely nothing for 14 years when it was in government. Some of those who were detained in Magdalen laundries died during that time. Regardless of what happens now, those people will not receive an apology now because they are not alive. I advise the Senators in question to keep that in mind. Equally, I do not think the party that took 17 years to apologise for the death of a garda is in any position to criticise the Government for not dealing with this issue.

Does Senator Burke have a question for the Leader?

We should approach this issue in a calm and measured manner. The Government has said that it will arrange a debate on this matter and that it will deal with it comprehensively and carefully. Governments should be given time to deal with reports like this after they are published. That is what this Government is doing. I remind the Leader that it is important for this House to have a debate on this report. We should deal with it comprehensively. We need to ensure procedures are put in place when an issue arises and the State is involved. I am reminded of the nursing home cases long ago. In that case, the State kicked the issue around for 24 years without doing anything about it. When an issue arises, we should not allow any Department to try to push it under the carpet. That seems to have been the approach of Administrations in this country for far too long. It is time we changed that system. We need to put procedures in place to ensure that when valid complaints about how we do our business in this country are raised, they are dealt with immediately rather than being left lying around for ten, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years.

The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Darragh O'Brien, asked whether the Minister, Deputy Shatter, will be here for the debate on the Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012 and for Private Members' business. I am assured that the Minister will be here from 4.30 p.m. until 8 p.m.

I hope that satisfies Senator O'Brien and his colleagues on the other side of the House.

It does. It has made my day.

Senator O'Brien also asked for clarification about exceptional needs payments. As I have explained previously, such payments are made when essential, once-off, exceptional and unforeseen expenditure, which a person could not reasonably be expected to meet from his or her weekly income, arises. There is no automatic entitlement to a payment. The Government has provided almost €48 million for payments in this regard in 2013. The guidelines mentioned by the Senator have been issued to the staff who administer this scheme. It is recommended that the payment of the allowance in respect of specific religious ceremonies, mainly communion and confirmation ceremonies, will cease from 2013. Applications can continue to be made under the scheme for assistance with children's clothing. This measure will ensure that the exceptional needs payment scheme continues to respond to specific needs, rather than to specific occasions. These recommendations do not affect the discretion available to officers administering the scheme, in issuing an exceptional needs payment, to assist an individual or household in any particular hardship situation which may arise.

I hope that clarifies the situation for the Senator.

Quite a number of Members rightly raised the question of the McAleese report into the Magdalen laundries. I do not intend to respond to all the points made. We will endeavour to have a debate in this House within two weeks. As soon as the Minister is available to come in, we will have him in, and the request has gone in already.

As was mentioned, the Government acted as soon as it was elected in having this report commissioned. The concerns of these vulnerable women have been dismissed for decades. There is no question from reading part of the report that the State was complicit - it specifically states that 26% of those who became residents of the Magdalen laundries did so through State processes, judicial State care, etc. There is no question that there was State collusion in this.

I would hope we will have a debate on the report. We should treat the report with the measure of calmness and consideration which I believe it deserves. It is a very comprehensive report. I am sure this House will have a very considered, measured and informed debate, as we usually do on subjects such as this. It is unfortunate that we have had need for other reports in recent years, such as the Ryan report and others, which has certainly been a blight on the country. We should wait and have that calm and considered debate in a couple of weeks.

Senators Whelan and Kelly called for a debate on the health service strategy. I will ask the Minister for Health to come to the House to address the whole area of reform of the health services. As the Minister said, change is not optional; it is essential. The Minister would suggest, and I agree with him, that a lot of change has taken place already but there is a hell of a lot more to be done - there is no question about that. I will ask him to come to the House for a debate on the progress that has been made to date and what the strategy is for the future.

I can assure Senator MacSharry that free GP care will be introduced in the term of this Government.

The Minister, Deputy Reilly, said it would start in the last days of last year.

I am sure it will be welcomed wholeheartedly by those on the other side of the House.

I would not expect that Fianna Fáil, like other parties, would thrive on the misery of other people.

I hope they would accept it when that happens. The Minister never stated that universal health insurance would be delivered in the first term of this Government but it may be, and those opposite may have to accept that.

He said free GP care would start in the last quarter of last year.

The Leader, without interruption.

They may have to reluctantly accept that as well. I hope that will be the situation.

He is too busy building hospitals in Wexford and Kilkenny.

Senator Norris raised a point on the constitutional convention and also in regard to gay marriage. The constitutional convention will continue and I am sure Senator Norris will have his say in that regard.

Senator Crown raised two questions in regard to the financial reports for the committee and the make-up of the committee. They are points he can raise during the debate.

Senator O'Neill asked about the difference between the killing of PSNI officers and gardaí. I believe the killing of any person is a despicable act and there should not be a distinction between one and another. Sinn Féin has not answered that and it should answer, but we did not get an answer here this morning.

The First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will be able to debate it.

In regard to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, I have outlined on at least five occasions the protocol involved in inviting the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. I can assure the Senator they have been invited and I have received an acknowledgement to my correspondence. He will be one of the first to know when both of them accept, but both of them will have to accept.

I hope I will not have to spell out again what is the situation in that regard. Senator Ó Clochartaigh also raised the question of Older and Bolder, which was raised and answered on the Order of Business yesterday.

Senator Keane raised the question of physical education and called for a coherent policy. I understand it will be an optional subject in the junior certificate in a couple of years. I agree we should have a debate on that very important area.

Senator Mooney spoke in regard to the deliberations of the joint agriculture committee, to which the Minister gave information yesterday. I assure him this House will be kept fully informed on the matter. I agree with him that the sooner it is solved, the better it will be for the food sector, in particular the beef sector.

Senator Ó Domhnaill referred to means testing in the context of what the Minister for Education and Skills is bringing to Cabinet. Obviously, he is more informed than everybody else on that subject. I am not aware of what the Minister is bringing to Cabinet on that but, obviously, the Senator has other means of finding out.

Senator White raised the role of senior civil servants in suppressing inquiries and so on. It is up to each Minister to run his Department and to be strong enough, if senior civil servants are giving him information which he does not agree with. At the end of the day, the buck stops on his or her desk, whoever that may be. That should be the way. If we have Ministers who have not been strong enough, it is their responsibility.

With regard to the Magdalen laundries report, Senator Colm Burke suggested that proper procedures should be put in place so something like this never happens again. I believe that would be the wish of each and every Member of the House.

The launch of the public consultation committee will take place at noon in the AV room. We will arrange a debate on the findings of that report as soon as possible.

On a point of order, if the Leader checks the record he will see that what I actually asked for was a debate on the dismantling of the community and voluntary infrastructure and he has not responded to that. He might respond to that question.

That is not a point of order. The Leader has responded. Is the Order of Business agreed? Agreed.

Order of Business agreed to.
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