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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Feb 2013

Vol. 220 No. 10

Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012: Second Stage

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am very pleased to present this Bill to Seanad Éireann.

At its peak during the Second World War, the Defence Forces had approximately 42,000 serving personnel. Over the course of the war, it is estimated that over 7,000 members of the Defence Forces deserted, many to join with the Allied forces. Of these, some 2,500 personnel returned to their units or were apprehended and were tried by military tribunal. The remaining personnel, numbering some 5,000, were the subject of dismissal under the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945 and the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act 1946.

The Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945, which was signed by the then Taoiseach on 8 August 1945, provided for automatic dismissal from the Defence Forces of certain deserters and absentees without leave. The order also provided for forfeiture of pay and allowances and a condition that every person to whom the order applied should be disqualified for seven years from holding any office or employment remunerated from the Central Fund. This was subsequently enacted by the Oireachtas in the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act 1946.

The effect of the order was to impose significant hardship on many individuals and families. It removed from them the right to be tried for the offences of which they stood accused and to provide a defence against the alleged crime. Many of the individuals were shunned in their communities and many never returned to Ireland. Indeed, it is understood that some of those who were the subject of the order had actually died in combat. The majority of the individuals impacted by the order have now passed on, while those still alive are now in the twilight years of their lives.

It was against this backdrop that in June 2012, and following a detailed consideration of the issue, the Government concluded that the sacrifice and contribution of those who deserted from the Defence Forces to fight on the allied side in the Second World War should be recognised, while not undermining the requirements of military discipline or in any way condoning their desertion in a time of national emergency. In this context the Government committed to issuing an apology for the manner in which those members of the Defence Forces who left to join the allied side during 1939 to 1945, were treated after the war by the State and to seek to provide a legal mechanism that would provide an amnesty to those who absented themselves from our Defence Forces for that reason. It is these individuals that the Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012, seeks to address.

The ability of the Defence Forces to maintain the high standards demanded of them requires complete clarity with regard to the exercise of command authority whether at home or abroad. To maintain standards and rise to the challenges of a military environment and all of the associated tasks, it is important to uphold a chain of command that is clear and unambiguous at all times. This is critical to the maintenance of unit cohesion and operational effectiveness. In that regard, it goes without saying that the Defence Forces must retain the power to enforce discipline through its own unique code of discipline within the military justice system. This disciplinary code must be efficient and effective and, above all else, it must be fair to the individual.

In common with armies across the world, desertion from the Defence Forces is regarded as a very serious offence. It is at the heart of the system of military discipline that when an individual takes the solemn oath at the commencement of his or her career that he or she cannot decide to just up and leave or fail to be available to perform duties. While this is very much the case today, it would especially have been the case at a time when the world was at war and our troops were on standby to defend our country from invasion.

Before elaborating on the Bill, it is important to put on the record the fact the Government recognises the value and importance to the State of the essential service given by all those who served in the Defence Forces throughout the Second World War. They performed a crucial duty for the State at a time of national emergency and enormous difficulty. The loyalty of the Defence Forces to the State is indispensable. It is essential to the national interest that members of the Defence Forces do not abandon their duties at any time, especially at a time of crisis, and no responsible Government could ever depart from this principle.

Accordingly, it is important we acknowledge that throughout the Second World War the majority of men chose to stay in the Defence Forces and serve their own country. These members were engaged in important service for their country and it is crucial that nothing we do now in any way diminishes or undervalues their loyalty and the service given by them to the State.

Having said that, I believe it is accepted by most people today that the majority of those who deserted the Defence Forces during the Second World War and who went on to fight against fascism did so out of a sense of idealism and with a commitment to protect democracies from tyranny and totalitarianism. Had there been a different outcome to the Second World War, there is no reason to believe this State would have been immune to invasion.

In seeking to address the question of desertion during the Second World War, the Government has already acknowledged that the war gave rise to circumstances that were grave and exceptional. Members of the Defence Forces left their posts at that time to join the allied side in the fight against tyranny and, together with many thousands of other Irish men and women, these individuals played an important role in defending freedom and democracy. Those who fought on the allied side also contributed to protecting this State's sovereignty and independence and our democratic values. It will be accepted by all in this House that in the almost 74 years since the outbreak of the Second World War, our understanding of history has matured. History teaches us lessons that can sometimes only be learnt with the benefit of hindsight. The actions of those taken long ago, for whatever reasons, are not beyond re-evaluation.

Those actions can now be considered free from the constraints that bound those directly involved at the time and without questioning or revisiting their motivation.

I have stated previously that the exploits of the men who left the Defence Forces to join the allies have been politically airbrushed out of our contemporary history. However, given the greater insight and understanding now of the shared history and experiences of Ireland and Britain I believe the time is right for the role played by these brave volunteer Irish veterans to be recognised and the rejection they experienced understood.

From the remove of 2013 it is not easy to imagine the difficult decisions that people made when they consciously decided to leave Ireland to join the Allied Forces during the course of the Second World War. During that period Ireland decided to remain neutral but it is safe to say that at the time anti-British feeling was still running very high. Despite the level of anti-British feeling that without doubt existed, it is not generally known that over the period of the Second World War an estimated 60,000 individually motivated citizens from the Twenty-six Counties left these shores to serve as volunteers in the British armed forces. Others migrated to England to participate in the war economy.

While at the end of the war many of those who chose to fight with the allies stayed on and sought to build lives for themselves in England, many more returned to Ireland. There is no doubt that many veterans returning to Ireland at the end of the Second World War were met with grudging acceptance. However, it is also clear that others faced hostility. This was particularly true when the individual was known to have deserted the Defence Forces. For all such people, the honour and celebration which they may have experienced at the end of the war in England contrasted sharply with the changed circumstances of their return. There was no flag-waving nor any cheering masses to greet them here. Instead, they were faced with difficulties in seeking either employment or social assistance and many of their countrymen and women remained suspicious towards them long after their return.

Before detailing the specific provisions I wish to re-emphasise that the Government does not condone desertion and fully recognises, values and respects the contribution of all those who stood by their posts with the Defence Forces and pledged their lives to defend the State's integrity and sovereignty against any and all aggressors. In any consideration of the matter we should bear in mind the principle that such decisions cannot be left to the individual discretion of individual soldiers on active service and that all soldiers must accept that there are consequences for desertion.

I will outline the specific provisions of the Bill. Section 1 outlines the definitions for the purposes of the Bill. Section 2 provides an amnesty for members of the Defence Forces who deserted or were absent without leave during the course of the Second World War and who subsequently served with forces fighting on the Allied side in that war and who: were dismissed from the Defence Forces by the Emergency Powers Order 1945; were convicted of desertion or being absent without leave; or were or are liable to be prosecuted for desertion or being absent without leave.

Senators will note that the Bill provides for an amnesty for those convicted of desertion or being absent without leave rather than a pardon, as was originally envisaged by Government. This change has been made for technical reasons and is in line with legal advice provided to me during the drafting process by the Attorney General to the effect that a pardon would require that each case be individually processed, a situation that clearly is not possible in practical terms today.

Section 3 provides for an immunity from prosecution for members of the Defence Forces who deserted or were absent without leave during the course of the Second World War and who subsequently served with forces fighting on the Allied side in that war. Section 4 provides that no right, liability or any cause of action shall arise resulting from the enactment. Section 4 also provides that the amnesty being provided in section 2 will not have the effect of a pardon under Article 13.6 of the Constitution. Section 5 provides for the Short Title of the Bill.

I am satisfied that the Bill as drafted fully meets the Government's commitment to deal in a positive way with the issue of those who deserted our Defence Forces to join the Allied forces during the course of the Second World War and that it does so in a way that does not expose the State to any liability in respect of those individuals. I am pleased to submit this legislation for the consideration of the House and I look forward with anticipation to hearing the views and contributions of Senators in their deliberations and reflections on the Bill. I commend the Bill to Seanad Éireann.

I welcome the Minister for Defence to the House to discuss this matter. I compliment the Minister on bringing forward this legislation. Fianna Fáil will not oppose the Bill, which provides an amnesty for those who deserted the Defence Forces during the Second World War to fight on the Allied side. Nonetheless we believe a mature reader of history will appreciate why it was necessary, in the context of the time, to impose severe sanctions on deserters.

It is important to note the background to the Bill. Last year, the Minister, on behalf of the Government, apologised for the manner in which those members of the Defence Forces who left to fight on the side of the Allied Forces during the Second World War from 1939 to 1945 were treated afterwards by the State. That was a progressive and important statement from the Minister. The Minister also stated that in addressing the question of desertion during the Second World War, the Government acknowledged that the war gave rise to circumstances that were grave and exceptional. At the time, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, stated:

Members of the Defence Forces left their posts at that time to fight on the Allied side against tyranny and, together with many thousands of other Irish men and women, played an important role in defending freedom and democracy. Those who fought on the Allied side also contributed to protecting this State’s sovereignty and independence and our democratic values.

It is worth noting that during the Second World War the State decided to take a neutral stance. It is fitting, bearing in mind that historical decision, that this amnesty should come into play. The Minister stated that no distinction was made between those who fought on the Allied side for freedom and democracy and those who absented themselves for other reasons. That was an important statement by the Minister as well.

In the 73 years since the outbreak of the Second World War our understanding of history has matured. The Minister said we can re-evaluate actions taken long ago free from the constraints that bound those directly involved without questioning or revisiting their motivation. The passage of time has diminished considerably the number of people who are alive to avail of the amnesty.

The Minister may have covered this point in his speech but I note that at the time it was estimated that approximately 6,000 or 7,000 men deserted the Defence Forces. Apparently one in six of those who deserted went to join another army and fought in the war. Approximately 5,000, or one in eight, of these men went to join the British army. At the time the Defence Forces amounted to 42,000. Therefore, one in eight of the Defence Forces joined the British army and fought in the war.

It is important to note the remarks of Éamon de Valera to the then Minister in 1948. He stated:

Desertion is a very serious offence, as I am sure he will be the first to admit. According to the regulations, it is a matter for which every deserter is liable to be court-martialled and get very severe punishment.

That statement and others were made in the era after a world war which had been rampant throughout Europe and the greater world. Since Ireland was on the periphery of Europe such a statement was necessary and the laws extant were there for good reason. Thankfully, with the development of the European Union and the expansion of the Union to 27 countries, it is something we seldom reflect on and acknowledge, but that since that war and despite our economic woes at the moment the Union has brought peace and stability to the entire continent. In my younger days I would not have envisaged the collapse and fall of the Berlin Wall. Major developments have taken place since then.

At the end of the war we were lenient in making it known that courts martial were not going to take place. Successive Governments, especially at the time, did not actively pursue those whom, it was well known, had deserted the Defence Forces. Nevertheless, we had to establish and show that the offence could not be tolerated. It is important to note and put these matters in context when discussing the Bill.

It is vital to put all the events of the war and subsequent peace in Europe in the proper context. We should not forget that when the Second World War broke out, Ireland had been independent for only 17 years. The Civil War created serious divisions on this island and major problems for the fledgling nation. If we could turn back the clock we might take a better course in history. Some people have criticised de Valera for his stance on neutrality but he was also making a clear statement of our independence as a small nation. Our decision to remain neutral was read as an anti-British stance but the reasons went much deeper. When we reflect on history, we see that Éamon de Valera made a brave decision which saved thousands of lives and prevented the country from undergoing the type of ravaging that has not happened since Cromwellian times. His decision also received widespread public support at the time.

In welcoming the Bill on behalf of my Fianna Fáil colleagues, I note that the current size of the Defence Forces is tiny compared to its size the 1940s. The strength of the Defence Forces was approximately 40,000 then, compared to no more than 8,000 now. There have also been many changes in the Defence Forces. I will not criticise the Minister tonight about barracks closures. These debates have taken place, much as the closures may be regretted, and the primary role of the Defence Forces is now peacekeeping on foreign soil. The Army is more advanced, with better technology, and a slimmer version of what it used to be. In the context of a Bill dealing with amnesties, immunity and prosecution, we should acknowledge the tremendous work the Defence Forces have done over the years in Cyprus, the Congo and elsewhere. They have made us proud of their peacekeeping missions and this is recognised well beyond the boundaries of Europe. I acknowledge the significant contribution they have made to peace in several countries in Africa and beyond.

I welcome the Minister to the House and thank him for his overview of the Bill. The Bill provides a pardon and amnesty to those who absented themselves from the Defence Forces without leave or permission in order to fight on the Allied side during the Second World War. The Government has apologised for the manner in which these individuals were treated by the State after the war. It recognises the value and importance to the State of the essential service given by all who served in the Defence Forces throughout the war. They performed a crucial duty for the State during a period of national emergency and enormous difficulty. The loyalty of the Defence Forces to the State is indispensable.

In addressing the question of desertion during the Second World War, the Government acknowledges that the war gave rise to circumstances that were grave and exceptional. Members of the Defence Forces left their posts to fight on the Allied side against tyranny and, together with many thousands of Irish men and women, played an important role in defending freedom and democracy. Those who fought on the Allied side also contributed to protecting the State's sovereignty, independence and democratic values.

In August 1945 the Government of the day used an emergency powers order to address the issue of members of the Defence Forces who had absented themselves during the war by summarily dismissing them from the Defence Forces and disqualifying them from holding employment or office remunerated from the State Central Fund for seven years. Individuals were not given an opportunity to explain their absence. This remained the position following the transposition of the emergency powers order into an Act of the Oireachtas in 1946. No distinction was made between those who fought for freedom and democracy on the Allied side and those who absented themselves for other reasons.

Our understanding of history has matured in the years since the outbreak of the war. It is time for understanding and forgiveness. In recognition of the shared history and experience of Ireland and Britain, it is right that the role played by Irish veterans who fought on the Allied side be recognised and the rejection they experienced be understood. To that end the Government is resolved to provide a legal mechanism to offer an amnesty to those who absented themselves from our Defence Forces and fought with Allied forces in the Second World War, and to pardon those who were individually court-martialled. This will, however, be achieved without undermining the general principle regarding desertion, as the Minister has explained.

The Bill will provide that the pardon and amnesty do not give rise to any right or entitlement or any liability on the part of the State. As the Minister has emphasised in extending this amnesty and pardon, the Government does not condone desertion and fully recognises, values and respects the contribution of all those who stood by their posts in the Defence Forces and pledged their lives to defend this State's integrity and sovereignty against any and all aggressors. I welcome that the measure has support from both sides of the House and I look forward to its speedy passage.

I thank the Minister for introducing this Bill. I first raised this issue in the Seanad in November 2011 because, in the context of our preparations for the centenary celebrations of the 1916 Easter Rising, I felt it important to draw the attention of the House to a forgotten, although no less brave, cohort of men. In granting a pardon, the Minister has made an historic decision for which he should be congratulated.

During the Second World War almost 5,000 Irishmen left or deserted the Defence Forces to join the British Army to fight for democracy and the future and freedom of us all. Many of these brave men never made it home. The book Spitting on a Soldier's Grave details the suffering some of these men endured in camps. Some of their children received special treatment in orphanages in Ireland because they were the children of deserters.

In August 1945, the then Government, headed by Éamon de Valera, circulated a list of almost 5,000 servicemen it labelled as deserters under the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945. The list was a blunt political tool which denied these men their constitutional right to defend themselves in an Irish court. Membership of this list meant a person was barred from government employment for seven years and had to forfeit any pay due. Appallingly, it was the ordinary squaddie who was tarnished, because officers were exempt. Ordinary working-class lads, some of whom had been decorated for valour, were punished for their part in the fight against fascism. Fine Gael, in Opposition at the time, appealed for their pardon but then Taoiseach, Éamon de Valera, and the Minister for Defence, Oscar Traynor, refused. Since then there has been a great movement to have these people pardoned as an act of compassion. I am aware that the Minister has been considering this matter since summer 2011 and I am delighted that he has concluded this process and granted the pardon. For the 100 veterans left alive and their families, this announcement will go some small way to ease the pain they have endured over the years. We should acknowledge these brave men who fought with idealism and commitment to protect democracy from tyranny.

I thank the Minister for coming to the House. The issue of the Irish troops in the Second World War has always been a thorny one. Those troops have been celebrated and admonished by historians and viewed as both traitors and heroes by different ends of the spectrum. During the Second World War, Ireland, or Éire as it was known then, held neutral status. Recently, I was reading that in the early 1800s, half of the British Army was Irish, because of the people of both countries being so similar. Dublin was a military base for the British Army and provided soldiers to it. Many of these soldiers probably came from families with a tradition of joining the British army, a tradition many families here had before the formation of the State, for family reasons, for financial benefit or in order to acquire a trade or pension.

Hundreds of these Irish soldiers deserted their positions in the Irish Defence Forces at the time and crossed the Border into Northern Ireland or travelled across the sea to Britain to join the ranks of the British Army, British navy and British air force. The Minister may have figures on how many may have joined the US army also. It would be interesting to see those figures if available.

Regardless of their motives for deserting their Irish positions and taking up new roles in the British armed forces, it would be naive to believe they were singularly driven to fight the spread of Nazism in western Europe. The better pay and conditions were surely a factor for many men with large families at home to provide for and many came from large families that could not keep them at home. Many of the men who deserted from the Irish forces to fight with the British, American and other Allied forces were killed or wounded in the cause of liberating Europe from Nazism and fighting Japanese imperialism in the Far East.

Those who subsequently survived the Second World War and returned home, were found guilty by a military tribunal or were unable to be prosecuted for desertion or being absent without leave and were dismissed from the Defence Forces pursuant to the provisions of the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order. Furthermore, these soldiers found they were barred from employment by the Irish State and as a result they suffered numerous hardships throughout their lives. This carried on to their families and the stigma carried on with them for generations. Approximately 100 of these men are alive - I am not sure whether any women are involved - and they deserve the recognition alluded to by the Minister.

I am very proud this Government and Bill acknowledge the Second World War gave rise to grave and exceptional circumstances. Irish citizens who left their posts to join the Allied side against Nazism and fascism played a key role in defending the freedom and democracy of the people of Europe and Asia. In fighting with the Allied side, Irish deserters, by extension, protected a militarily weak Irish State and its sovereignty and protected independence and democratic values from far right oppressors. We should be proud of the Irish men, our compatriots, who left their posts and took great personal risks to oppose the biggest threat to democracy that Europe had ever faced.

The brutality of the Second World War was on a scale unimaginable to later generations of Irish men and women. I hope this Bill allays the concerns of the remaining Second World War veterans and is part of a phase of proper remembrance for our fallen citizens, not only those who died in the Second World War, but the 49,000 Irish men who fought and died in the First World War and those who survived the inconceivable horrors of the trenches. I welcome the Bill and believe it will give some relief to the many men and families conscious of what happened. Most citizens probably do not know what happened these men, but the Minister has highlighted the issue and it will be a good day's work if the Bill is passed.

I welcome the Minister to the House. Like other Senators, I warmly support the Bill, which is part of the reconciliation between North and South within this island and between east and west. It is part of a wider reconciliation also and as Senator O'Donovan said, the EU 27 was formed to ensure we do not have further outbreaks of war like the First World War or Second World War.

The timing of this Bill is right. This is Holocaust memorial week, commemorating the dreadful events of that time. These events were also commemorated in the Mansion House last Sunday and outside the Bundestag there is a massive memorial to the Holocaust. We are all coming to terms with what happened in the Second World War and this Bill takes the right direction. Senator Harte's father, Paddy, played a major role in the memorial to Irish soldiers at Messines, which reconciles the different traditions on this island. We had the successful visit of the Queen of England and her husband and co-operation was manifest at the Islandbridge ceremonies during the summer where the Army and veterans conducted services honouring the veterans. The same happens on Remembrance Day in St. Patrick's Cathedral. At that ceremony, I met people from west Cork whose sons had died recently in Afghanistan and met a man from Mayo whose brother had died in Afghanistan.

This connection has been strong and it was exercised in the service of freedom and democracy. The Minister is convincing that the original regulations were necessary. If all 42,000 members of the Defence Forces had left, the State would have been left unprotected. However, it is now time to lay that aside. The Bill is neatly phrased and states in section 2 that "we recognise we have been unduly harsh", "we apologise for the treatment" and "it occurred in special circumstances". It provides for exoneration in respect of the acts and immunity from prosecution. In section 4 it states that this "does not confer a right on any person" or "create any cause of action" or "impose any liability on the State or on any person".

This is a fine piece of legislation in the spirit of the times. I would like to draw the attention to one slight issue. Page 4 of our briefing states there were 80,000 Irish soldiers in the Allied army in the Second World War, but the Minister's page 4 states there were 60,000. Perhaps the two historians will confer to decide which figure should be brought to the Dáil. This all refers to the past. In the present time, relations between the traditions on this island have never been better and improve daily. This Bill is another step in that direction.

There is a more serious dissertation, which is beautifully covered in the Tom Kettle poem dedicated to his daughter, as he suspected he would not survive too long in World War One. He wore the uniform of the British Army. He says:

You'll ask why I abandoned you, my own,

And the dear breast that was your baby's throne.

Why did he? He continues:

So here, while the mad guns curse overhead,

And tired men sigh, with mud for couch and floor,

Know that we fools, now with the foolish dead,

Died not for Flag, nor King, nor Emperor,

But for a dream, born in a herdsman's shed,

And for the Secret Scripture of the poor.

This is very moving. He knew he would never see his daughter again and that she would feel he had deserted her. His expression is so much more vital to the human condition than deserting countries and he was deeply moved to write this.

Francis Ledwidge too, who liked County Meath so much that when he got a job in Dublin he walked home to Slane one evening, fought in World War One. He said he joined the British Army "because she stood between Ireland and an enemy of civilization and I would not have her say that she defended us while we did nothing but pass resolutions". This is a reconciling part of this beautiful island and great country we share. Perhaps we should think of some way to celebrate the 100 veterans Senator Mary Ann O'Brien mentioned and cherish them as part of this great nation. I welcome the Minister's initiative and am sure he will have the support of all of the House.

Debate adjourned.
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