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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Feb 2013

Vol. 220 No. 10

Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I welcome the Minister to the House. I thank him for his contribution and welcome the proposed legislation.

In an hour or so the Minister will be debating the current Garda cutbacks and relocations with the House, perhaps in a more robust fashion, but this is a more reflective and conciliatory debate. We are discussing the events of the Second World War. In the course of history we should be mindful of the comments of one of the former leaders of the Chinese Communist Party. I cannot fully recall his name and certainly could not pronounce it, but he said it was too early to assess the significance of the French Revolution. Similarly, we have to do a lot of further deep thinking about Ireland's role, or non-role, in the Second World War. The specific Bill being introduced by the Minister relates to a small number of people who deserted the Irish Army during that time. This humane and realistic legislation strikes the right balance between attempting to right what most people see as a wrong and expressing once again our support for and thanks as a nation to all those who have served in the Defence Forces.

In this country we did not call the Second World War a war - we called it "the Emergency". Before we sneer at such terminology, we must remember and recognise that it was a time before the Internet, colour television sets, mass media, Twitter and Sky News. It was difficult for many people, even at high levels of the Government, to appreciate fully the slaughter, terror, mass murder and killing that was commonplace across the continent of Europe. The Second World War was entirely different from the First World War. While millions of people were tragically killed during the First World War, it moved at a snail's pace, as Senator Fidelma Healy Eames said. The technology of war had advanced by the time the Second World War started. This facilitated mass murder on an entirely different and more horrific scale, as evidenced by the dreadful concentration camps of eastern Europe. At this time, the Irish Government was a relatively new institution in a very new state. It was inevitable that the Government of the time was defensive and inward-looking. As Senator Denis O'Donovan said, just 17 years had passed since the end of the Civil War. There was a sense of tension and fear among the political establishment. Perhaps it is more understandable than it should be, therefore, that we decided almost to ignore what was happening across the continent of Europe. We tried to put our own little Iron Curtain around the island and look after our own affairs.

A number of people who were serving in the Irish Army at the time decided that the State's approach was not good enough and took the difficult and dangerous option of fighting for the British Army on the continent of Europe. The figures presented by the Minister seem to indicate that the majority deserted to join the British Army. A small number simply walked away from the Defence Forces. I recognise how difficult it was for the people concerned to remove themselves from their own national army and move into an entirely different theatre of military engagement, where death and destruction were a daily inevitability for so many. Many, if not all, of them went to war to defend democracy and fight fascism, which must be lauded. We have to recognise, as the Minister did in his very balanced contribution, that as a nation we were still hugely dependent on, and must be thankful for, the Irish Army. The LDF served side by side with the Irish Army in almost every town and townland. This created a great sense of national unity during the Emergency. The LDF played a part not just in a military sense but also from a community perspective. It had its role also.

I welcome the legislation that the Minister has introduced. It is appropriate, fair and balanced. The people who left our shores to fight on foreign fields were no lesser Irishmen, or no less committed, than those who had stayed at home. They took the road less travelled, which was the far more dangerous one. It is right, many years later, that we are recognising that they were patriots, too. We must try to wipe the record clean as far as they are concerned.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I welcome and commend the Minister who I know has a particular interest in this period of history. This is an extraordinarily generous gesture on the part of the Government at this remove. It might not seem like a lot, but it is. I know that the Minister has spoken out somewhat critically against the actions of the Irish Government after the Second World War, particularly with regard to those who survived the Holocaust. I share his view. It was a shameful episode.

It is appropriate in this context to consider the dynamic entrepreneurship and creative energy that our immigrant population has brought to this country. As a former emigrant, I have worked in the environment in which one makes a contribution to the country of one's adoption that is far in excess of that one might make at home. To a degree, I can understand from where the Minister is coming. I should declare an interest in so far as I am a member of the Connaught Rangers Association. I have visited the battlefields of northern France and Belgium and been to the very spot where Francis Ledwidge was killed. It was a most random act. As Senators will recall, he had worked as an engineer with Meath County Council and his expertise was being put to good use because he was leading a group of soldiers who were widening a road when a shell randomly landed in the middle of them. It was a terrible tragedy.

I would like to mention one little quibble I have. I appreciate that two thirds of the Minister's speech was in defence of the proud contribution the Defence Forces made during the Second World War. I do not want to quibble with this in any way, other than to say I found one paragraph rather interesting. He said:

From the remove of 2013 it is not easy to imagine the difficult decisions that people made when they consciously decided to leave Ireland to join the Allied Forces during the course of the Second World War. During that period Ireland decided to remain neutral but it is safe to say that at the time anti-British feeling was still running very high.

I do not dispute that analysis, but it should also be mentioned that Ireland was not the only country to declare neutrality. The Low Countries also declared neutrality. Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg were all invaded by Nazi forces and dragged into the war as a result. The British spent two fruitless years trying to get the United States to enter the war, but it refused to do so, although it did bring the Lend-Lease system into operation. In fairness, President Roosevelt did a lot to help the British war effort surreptitiously. Official America was, however, totally opposed to getting involved in the European war. It was not until the attack on Pearl Harbour that the United States engaged with it. Japan had become part of the Axis powers and aligned with Hitler and nazism. I mention this because I always consider a certain revisionism is creeping into the history of Ireland's neutral position. As a small island off the shore of mainland Europe, Ireland was still in the throes of trying to declare its separate identity having come out of the Civil War 17 years earlier. The Irish should not have been neutral, but that is neither here nor there. As a student of Second World War history, particularly the enormous horrors nazism imposed on the peoples of Europe, I am conscious of the circumstances of the time. During the period about which we are talking Britain stood alone against the forces of fascism. In that context, one can understand why people left the Defence Forces.

I am grateful to Dr. Bernard Kelly whose book, Returning Home, about the lack of welcome those who had fought during the Second World War received when they returned home, I commend to all Members of the House. I am also grateful to Dr. Michael Kennedy, the executive editor of the Royal Irish Academy's documents on Irish foreign policy, who has written widely on Ireland and the Second World War. According to Dr. Kelly's book, some 60,000 Irish men and women joined the British forces to fight against fascism. Some 9,000 Irish citizens died during the war. In this debate we are talking about the 12,000 who returned to Ireland. As the Minister indicated, it seems that the rest wisely chose to stay in the United Kingdom. Returning Home outlines the massive economic, social and psychological problems that these veterans faced for the rest of their lives.

For the 5,000 men who deserted the Defence Forces to join the British Army, poverty, joblessness and social exclusion were their reward. The book explores how Irish ex-servicemen coped with the frosty welcome they received when they came back to Ireland, the difficult task of reintegration, economic difficulties and psychological problems.

Dr. Kennedy raises a number of interesting questions. Who were the deserters? How many of them fought with the Allies is still unknown. Who they were is also a mystery. We know them only as a category. Apart from the voices of one or two individuals who have gone on record, we cannot and perhaps never will be able to tell which of them joined the Allies from the list of names and deserters published by the De Valera Government after the war. This was not known in 1945 and it is not known now. It is often assumed, according to Dr. Kennedy, that all of the deserters on the list fought on the side of the Allies, but his research suggests they did not.

The Senator is using another Member's time.

That is unfortunate because there are many other things I want to say. Dr. Bernard Kelly's book, Returning Home, argues that the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945 was unnecessary in reality because, as they were without Defence Forces' discharge papers, those who had deserted could not get State jobs, which is a rather interesting historical twist. I am sorry I do not have more time to devote to this issue. I, again, commend the Minister's initiative in this regard. I know he has a personal feeling about these matters dating from that period. Although there are only 100 survivors left, at least it will bring some comfort not only to them and their families but also to the families of those who have not survived to this time. From that point of view, I overwhelmingly welcome this initiative and wish the Minister well.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, for attending. It is only proper that we seize the opportunity to address the injustice experienced by those members of the Defence Forces who left the country to fight with the Allies and help those affected as a consequence in the most appropriate way. For these reasons, I warmly welcome the legislation and congratulate the Minister on introducing it.

It is almost three quarters of a century since the outbreak of the Second World War and the events of that time seem to belong to a very different era. One of the major changes to have taken place is in our relationship with our nearest neighbour, Great Britain. During the Emergency the idea that a British monarch would be warmly welcomed to Ireland or that "God Save the Queen" would ever be sung or heard in Croke Park would have been considered completely impossible and beyond belief, but this has happened. The idea that someone would leave the Defence Forces to fight with the Allies struck at the heart of what was considered to be patriotism and was dealt with in a most harsh and cruel way. We now have the opportunity to re-evaluate the reasoning and the actions of long ago. While the bravery and loyalty of the members of the Defence Forces who remained at home is widely acknowledged, it is only right that those members who left to fight with the Allies should equally be acknowledged. It is a measure of our continuing growth and maturity as a nation that we recognise the importance of granting this amnesty. I sincerely hope those who still survive and all of the families involved will feel that, finally, a wrong has been righted. I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the Minister back to the House. On my own behalf and that of Sinn Féin, we welcome this legislation which we will be supporting. It is appropriate recognition of the wrongdoing of the State at the time and a fitting gesture for the families of those who were stigmatised owing to the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945.

The Second World War was, notwithstanding the neutrality of the State, a significant event in Irish as well as European history. It affected all Irish people, North and South, in a variety of ways. It was a time of considerable sacrifice and hardship in Ireland during which there were bombings in Belfast and on the North Strand. As we know, many thousands of Irish people, from North and South, were killed in battle during the war.

Some 80,000 citizens from the South volunteered to join the British Army during the course of the war. Of between 6,000 and 7,000 men who deserted the Defence Forces at the time, approximately 5,000 joined the British Army. They did so for many reasons, but for very many, fighting the evil of fascism was the foremost motivation. Many of them died in battle and their sacrifice is now remembered in an annual commemoration. It is also important for us to be vigilant in regard to the rise of fascism in our time, given what is happening in many European countries and the rise of far right parties in many countries across Europe.

Those who survived the war returned to Ireland to face a difficult and cold future. In October 1945 the Government of the day used powers under the Emergency Powers Acts 1939 to 1945 to issue the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945 which provided that any member of the Defence Forces who had deserted or absented himself or herself from service without being granted official leave for 120 days or more during the Emergency period should be dismissed from the Defence Forces for desertion. The order meant the summary dismissal of some 5,000 members of the Defence Forces.

The order also stipulated that those dismissed were disqualified for seven years from any public or Civil Service employment, including employment with local authorities or a position on any board or office established by statute such as the ESB. They also lost many of their pension entitlements and access to unemployment assistance payments under the Unemployment Insurance Act 1945. Pursuant to section 4(a), a “List of personnel of the Defence Forces dismissed for desertion in the time of National Emergency pursuant to the terms of the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945" was circulated to all major public bodies and Departments. It effectively functioned as a blacklist. During the course of the debate on the order it was characterised as a sentence of starvation and those affected were blocked from public employment and receiving State assistance. The State was happy to consign them to penury.

The manner in which the order was issued was also disproportionate and disposed with the ordinary judicial code for dealing with desertion from the armed forces under the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act 1923 and instead used the Emergency Powers Act to punish a particular group of deserters en masse without a court martial. They were denied an opportunity to defend themselves and their reputation. This was very wrong and contrary to the norms of fair procedure. The amnesty is an acknowledgement that the treatment received as a consequence of desertion is now considered to have been unduly harsh and an acceptance that the acts of those who deserted occurred in the special circumstances of the Second World War. They did not deserve the treatment they received; they did not deserve to be stigmatised, isolated and effectively blacklisted from public employment, as well as social society. Aside from the not inconsiderable trauma and upset the stigmatisation caused those affected by the order and their families, many also suffered hardship and poverty.

The Government of the time was one that showed little regard for human rights and due procedure. There were other categories who suffered grievously owing to its brutal use of special powers. In particular, I note the inhumane treatment of republican prisoners during and after the war. Three prisoners died while on hunger strike to protest at the conditions in prison camps at the time. They were Seán McCaughey, Jack McNeela and Tony D'Arcy. The inquest into the death of Seán McCaughey heard that he had not been outside in the fresh air or sunlight for four and a half years and had been kept for months on end in solitary confinement. In challenging the prison doctor Seán McBride, counsel for the next of kin, asked if he would treat a dog in such a manner. The doctor replied that he would not. While the Minister may see this as a matter for another day, which I accept, the State has never properly acknowledged the maltreatment of such prisoners. The Minister should give the matter careful consideration.

I fully support what the Minister is attempting to do. As previous speakers said, there are 100 survivors who will benefit from this measure. Because many others have, unfortunately, passed away, it is important for their families also. I hope the Bill will pass through both Houses of the Oireachtas quickly and without amendment in order that we can support the survivors, in particular, and the families of those who have passed away.

The Minister stated here today that desertion was a very serious offence, that members of the Defence Forces during the Emergency were performing an important role and that no decision should undervalue their loyalty and service to this nation. Many who deserted went on to fight, as others have said, against fascism. Many were driven by a commitment to protect democracy from tyranny and dictatorship, as has already been stated by my colleague, Senator Mary Ann O'Brien, who raised the issue here last November. I commend her on taking it before the House.

Last year, the Minister apologised on behalf of the State in the Lower House for the manner in which those members of the Defence Forces who left to fight on the Allied side during the Second World War were treated after the war by this State. He promised to introduce legislation to grant pardon and amnesty to those members of the Defence Forces. I recognise the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory. It is only right and fitting to introduce this legislation to grant pardon and amnesty to those who absented themselves from the Defence Forces without leave or permission to fight on the Allied side.

In his statement today, the Minister commended the Defence Forces at home who performed a crucial duty for the State at a time of national emergency, enormous difficulty and great hardship. He acknowledged the loyalty of the Defence Forces to the State and that it is indispensable and essential to the national interest that members of the Defence Forces do not abandon their duties at any time. Those who fought on the Allied side also contributed to protecting this State's sovereignty, independence and democratic values. Like other Senators, I acknowledge the significant peacekeeping record of our Defence Forces in faraway places like Lebanon, the Congo and Namibia. Many of them paid the ultimate price and lost their lives on peacekeeping missions in those foreign fields and are to be congratulated. As a young man, I remember a soldier telling me he was heading for the Congo. I had to look up an atlas to find out where the Congo was. I said I would never see him again. Tá mé beagnach críochnaithe. Níl ach leathleathanach fágtha agam. The Bill is a stand-alone Bill. I congratulate the Minister. He said he would do it and he can give me a tour in this House any time.

I will begin by thanking speakers on all sides for their very generous support for the Bill and the comments they have made. This is an important piece of legislation. I am very conscious that the vast majority of individuals whom it addresses have now passed on. It has relevance for their families - their children and grandchildren - because it recognises the fact that they did something to the benefit of this State by participating in the Second World War. Senator Mooney made a very interesting point when he made reference to other states that declared their neutrality during the Second World War and promptly found themselves invaded by Germany. None of us should be naïve about that particular matter. It is something that if said from this position some years ago would have been a great cause of controversy but I suspect it is nothing other than reality now. If the Battle of Britain had been lost and Germany had invaded Great Britain, this island was next and our neutrality would have provided us with no protection in that context. That was the lesson the neutral states in Europe learned at a very high cost.

A very personal aspect of that to me is a map prepared in 1941 which detailed the proposed liquidation of Jewish communities across Europe. A copy of that map exists in Yad Vashem, the Holocaust memorial centre in Jerusalem. What is interesting about that map is that it contains details of the estimated numbers of Jews in every European country designated for extermination. The number of Jews in Ireland was not left out. The number designated for extermination in Ireland on that map was 4,500, which is very close to the actual numbers in the Irish Jewish community. That was a map put together by Adolf Eichmann as part of the planned liquidation of Jews in Europe and one can be pretty certain the accurate inclusion of the Irish Jewish community in terms of its numbers was not just an idle addition.

As Minister for Defence, I am very conscious of the importance of discipline within our Defence Forces, the importance of the command structure applying and the importance of individual members of the Defence Forces not making individualised decisions and failing to do their duty. It is of as much importance to the State domestically that the Defence Forces do their duty today as it was at the time of what Senator Bradford referred to as the Emergency. It is important that they do their duty and obey orders when on UN peacekeeping missions as we have people around the world and it is important for their safety that they do that. However, these were exceptional times and individuals made what must have been for them extraordinarily difficult decisions. They placed their lives at risk and a significant number of them died. In the context of the figures given by Senator Mooney, we do not know how many of those who died simply joined the Allied Forces or deserted the Irish Army and then joined the Allied Forces. However, they lost their lives and in doing so, they assisted in the Allied victory and indirectly assisted in protecting the sovereignty and independence of this State. It is appropriate at this historical juncture that we recognise that. In this new world in which we live, it is appropriate that we recognise the extent of the connectivity between the islands of Ireland and Great Britain and the extent to which the lives of people on this island and neighbouring ones have interacted and the contribution made by those both North and South to the Allied side during the Second World War.

I very much appreciate the support expressed by Members of this House and the fact that some of them, including Senator Mary Ann O'Brien, are on record expressing views with which I agree on this particular issue. I appreciate that this measure, as do all measures coming before this House, has the full support of my Cabinet colleagues. We are making a small bit of history with this Bill in the context of reconciling the two islands and acknowledging that people who have been hidden in the shadows of the history of this island should be acknowledged and recognised and that a tribute should be paid to the role they played in years gone by. Senator Cullinane is right in saying that we need to be vigilant about the rise of fascism.

I do not believe any of us envisages, in the short term, the rise of another government in Europe dominated by fascists. However, there is certainly a small number of people in public life and the political system across Europe who are prepared to express particular views and resort to racism and anti-Semitism in seeking personal, political publicity and electoral support. This is something of which we, as Europeans, must be conscious. It is an issue I discussed at the first informal meeting of European Justice Ministers held in Dublin Castle two weeks ago. More needs to be done to ensure that not only will we continue to be vigilant in our commitment to protecting human rights and the ethos and democratic principles of Europe but also that we will unite to make certain there will not be a growth in racism, anti-Semitism and the attitudes which led to the disaster of Nazi Germany in the 1930s and gave rise to a greater disaster across the Continent.

For some reason, I seem to keep returning to the points raised by Senator Paschal Mooney. I am going to have to stop talking about the Senator who made reference-----

I talk about the Minister all the time.

-----to Bernard Kelly's book, Returning Home: Irish Ex-Servicemen after the Second World War . It is an excellent book which I read some time ago. It is a very interesting account of the contribution made by those who fought in the Second World War. I recollect that Mr. Kelly also considers a slightly earlier period in history, namely, the First World War. As Minister for Defence, I have visited different states and found that there is a history of people born in this State, from 1922 onwards, and on the island of Ireland, prior to 1922, who fought in foreign armies on foreign fields on the side with which most people on this island would identify. When I visited the war museum in Australia, I looked at the walls and discovered lists of those who had died in the First World War and the Second World War. The number of Irish names on these lists is extraordinary. Not all of them were second, third or fourth generation Irish. If one examines the history of Australia in the context of the two world wars, one will discover that many Irish emigrants in the 18 to 35 year age group joined the Australian army and fought in these wars. There were also those who joined the armies of the United States and Canada. I have read a number of books on this subject, some of which dealt with the United States, some with Canada and others with Australia. However, all of the information has not been brought together in one publication. In years gone by an extraordinary number of young people who had emigrated from Ireland and never had any intention of joining up and fighting in navies, armies or air corps ultimately did join and fought in either the First World War or the Second World War. That is an extremely interesting and important aspect of our history of which we should not lose sight.

I thank those on all sides who spoke during the debate. I must make special mention of my Fine Gael and Labour Party colleagues for being supportive of things I do on occasion which might create difficulties for them. I extend my thanks to all other Members of the House.

This is an important Bill. When it has been enacted, it would be nice if we could invite some of those who fought in the Second World War who are still with us and very elderly to come to the House for some celebration. I do not know whether it would be possible to do this or whether we would be in a position to identify and invite the appropriate people. Perhaps Senators might give some thought to the matter, particularly as it will be some weeks before the Bill is passed by both Houses. The objective is to have it enacted before Easter. It might be a nice way to pay tribute to people who are still with us and had adventures in foreign fields which were important to the State and are part of their history and that of their families. For far too long, those to whom I refer did not receive the recognition they deserved.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 12 February 2013.
Sitting suspended at 5.45 p.m. and resumed at 6.15 p.m.
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