Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Apr 2013

Vol. 222 No. 12

Order of Business

Senator Maurice Cummins

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding arrangements for an address to the House by Pat "The Cope" Gallagher, MEP, on 25 April 2013; No. 2, National Lottery Bill 2012 - Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 1 and adjourned not later than 2 p.m., if not previously concluded, with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed six minutes; No. 3, Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) (Amendment) Bill 2013 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 3 p.m. and adjourned, if not previously concluded, not later than 5 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed six minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply to the debate not later than 4.50 p.m.; and No. 4, Private Members' business, Financial Stability and Reform Bill 2013 - Second Stage, to be taken at 5 p.m. and conclude not later than 7 p.m.

For the information of the House, I advise that next week, in advance of Europe Week which falls in the second week of May, we will continue with our addresses from Irish MEPs. We will have Mr. Seán Kelly, MEP, here on Tuesday, Ms Nessa Childers, MEP, on Wednesday and Ms Marian Harkin, MEP, on Thursday. On Wednesday, 8 May, we will welcome the Irish Commissioner in Europe, Mrs. Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, to the House.

An Cathaoirleach

On a point of clarification, the Leader said No. 3 would be taken at 3 p.m. and was to be adjourned.

He then stated the Minister was to be called on to reply to the debate not later than 4.50 p.m. If there is a reply to the debate, will it be concluded rather than adjourned? Is it proposed to have an open-ended debate?

Senator Maurice Cummins

No, it will not be open-ended. It will be adjourned at 5 p.m., but if we do not have sufficient speakers, the Minister obviously must reply at 4.50 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it to conclude at 5 p.m.? Are we to call the Minister at 4.50 p.m.?

Senator Maurice Cummins

If there are speakers-----

An Cathaoirleach

If there are enough speakers, the Minister will not be called at 4.50 p.m.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Yes, exactly.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

That is great. Following on from my contribution yesterday, I note the Government has decided to have no opinion on bank executives' pay in Bank of Ireland and the other banks. I again ask the Leader to pass on the message to the Minister that it is not too late. I believe that on behalf of the people, he should reject the remuneration packages for the executives in Bank of Ireland. Furthermore, may I remind the Leader that while the Minister has stated he is waiting for the banks to consider the Mercer report, he has directed the banks to seek reductions in salaries and pensions of between 6% and 10%? Where does this leave the ordinary bank workers? Can the Leader confirm the Government will direct Bank of Ireland, AIB, PTSB, ICS and IBRC to take on the executive pay first?

More than 180 executives in State-owned or partly State-owned banking institutions earn more than €200,000 per year. Most people will agree with me that were a pay cut imposed across the board for normal bank workers who are carrying out their duties as best they can, it would be grossly unfair. The Leader should confirm today that the priority for these pay cuts will be at the upper levels in the banks. Many Members will have received much correspondence from ordinary bank workers as part of the A Bridge Too Far campaign and I believe what they seek is reasonable. Executives and board members should be hit first and this is the reason the Government is failing absolutely in its opportunity today to reject the remuneration packages for chief executives and board members of Bank of Ireland. While it is an absolute cop-out, at the very least the Government might give some succour to ordinary bank workers to the effect it will not insist on them receiving pay cuts of between 6% and 10%.

Furthermore, I ask the Leader to arrange soon for a debate on the betting industry and specifically on how independent bookmakers are finding it extremely difficult to survive with the onset of online betting and the Government's failure to bring forward agreed proposals to tax online betting at source in the area in which such bets are placed. This leaves a highly uneven playing pitch for independent bookmakers, who are closing down pretty much every day of the week. They employ a significant number of people and I believe this Chamber could provide an opportunity to put forward such cases to the relevant Minister, namely, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney.

I note most local authorities are reviewing and sending out reviews of their rental rates for social housing. In my home area of Fingal, rent review letters started to arrive last week and the average increase in rent for social and council housing there is 24%. This is directly due to the introduction of the Government's property tax. Moreover, I believe the local authorities have increased rents over and above the amount that would be levied on the aforementioned properties and which must be paid by the local authorities to the Government. Consequently, there is no justification whatsoever for a rent increase of 24% for local authority tenants. In this context, I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to the effect that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, come into this House to explain to Members the Government's view as to what constitutes a reasonable rent increase for local authority tenants. Does anyone believe a 24% increase is reasonable on foot of the many cuts experienced in this area? Why are the local authorities, which report to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, being allowed to increase rents to this extent, which is far above what they will be due to pay on their property tax for these developments? The matter is sufficiently urgent to table an amendment to the Order of Business today and I ask my colleagues to support it. I propose Members set aside perhaps even 40 minutes for the Minister to come in and explain this scenario in the Chamber, in order that they can work with the local authorities to ensure such rent increases do not go ahead.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I join Senator van Turnhout, who has been raising in this House for some time the issue of direct provision accommodation for asylum seekers and their families. She also raised it as a matter on the Adjournment last week. I note the comments reported today of former Supreme Court judge, Mrs. Catherine McGuinness, in which she stated that in years to come, there will be major recriminations over the treatment in particular of children of asylum seekers in direct provision accommodation. Members must consider this issue urgently and I support Senator van Turnhout's attempts to uncover some of the statutory basis for the system of direct provision. All Members are conscious that the numbers of people in direct provision have fallen and the Immigrant Council of Ireland has been mounting a campaign about this issue. However, conditions for those remaining in direct provision accommodation are still of real concern to many Members. They might have a debate on it in this Chamber because it is a matter of great concern even if numbers are falling. In particular, children may still be in highly inappropriate accommodation.

I welcome the vote in the French Parliament on marriage equality and that the French state now finally will see equality in marriage law for gay couples and for opposite-sex couples. This is relevant to Ireland because as colleagues are aware, the Constitutional Convention passed a motion calling on the Government to hold a referendum on this issue with a 79% majority. It is evident that increasing numbers of countries are moving towards a system of marriage equality, which is really welcome.

I express my concern at reports in the newspaper that the heads of the Bill on the X case and on the A, B and C v. Ireland case seek to require a panel of six or more doctors to verify suicide risk in pregnant women. There has been extensive comment on the subject in recent days and eminent psychiatrists have described it as abusive of women. All Members would agree that it would be utterly impractical and unworkable to require women to submit to this sort of interrogation that apparently is being put forward. Not only is this abusive of and insulting to women but it also is in clear breach of the judgment in December 2010 of the European Court of Human Rights in the A, B and C v. Ireland case. In that judgment, the court required that Ireland adopt an accessible and effective procedure whereby women could access their rights to a lawful abortion where pregnancy threatened their lives. It would be unacceptable were the legislation proposed by the Government to not, at the very least, comply with the requirement of the European Court of Human Rights.

Senator David Norris

I agree with Senator Bacik's comments on the French vote. It will become the 14th state to accept full gay marriage, which is greatly to be welcomed. As for the Constitutional Convention, despite the best efforts of reactionary forces, which in my opinion discredited themselves, if one distributes the undecided vote, the actual vote was well over 80%. While I consider this to be very heartening, we can look forward to a campaign in Ireland which will be extremely nasty, as unfortunately was that led by some of the Christian churches in France. There has been an immense increase in the number of violent attacks on gay people in France. Places of resort of the gay community have been attacked viciously and people have been injured and have been disfigured for life. This is at the instigation of the Christian churches. Shame on them and let this not, under any circumstances, happen in this country.

I refer to a matter I raised yesterday when I made a request of the Leader. I have spoken to him subsequently and he is in the process of inquiring after it but I now am convinced it is the case. I refer to a report that appeared at the beginning of the week in the Irish Examiner under the headline, "ECB gags State on IBRC liquidation". This headline should send a shudder down every decent democrat. A bank, that is, an unelected group of financial twits, presumes to dictate to a democratically-elected Government what it shall and shall not do in respect of informing its own public. We are expected to pay for this but once again, we are not allowed to know who we are paying or the procedures under which this is being done.

A senior official is quoted in the newspaper as saying that they have received instructions from the ECB not to release anything to the public.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

Senator David Norris

By God I am; I most certainly am. I am sure everybody in this House would want a debate because this is a Parliament elected by various means. The other House is another part of our Parliament. We are not allowed to say anything. The bankers who have led us into this slaughterhouse are still dictating to us. I find that grossly offensive, immoral and probably unconstitutional. A spokesperson for the Department of Finance said it is, unfortunately, a lot more secretive than we are. It is not tolerable.

There are repercussions for people down the chain. I have a communication from someone who is in the process of purchasing a property in liquidation from the IBRC. He has paid the deposit. He has agreed the sale. He has got a mortgage and he is paying it. He is still paying rent but he cannot get the keys of the house and he cannot get any information. This man is going to be driven into bankruptcy by people in Europe because he is not allowed to know or to nudge things along. All the material has been provided but he cannot find out anything. That is not tolerable. I ask the Leader to organise a debate on the issue.

This point might appear inconsistent but I do not think it is. I will end on it. The issue relates to the chief executive of Bank of Ireland. I had to laugh this morning when I heard people on the radio who I remember very clearly fulminating in favour of Anglo Irish Bank and its proceeds and proceedings and attacking this man for what he was doing. I do not know anything about it but I will say this. I can understand the position of the Government because if one is trying to realise an asset one does not send out a message to the international community that one has no confidence in the person who is running the bank. I do not like the capitalist system at all-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time.

Senator David Norris

I am sorry. I will end on this point. At some stage some citizen across Europe will drop a match on the floor and the whole bloody thing will go up and it cannot come soon enough as far as I am concerned.

Senator Colm Burke

I wish to comment briefly on the proposed legislation on the X case. It is important to realise that the comments that have been made recently about the requirement for six consultants is not a practical proposal. I do not think it was ever on the table. It is amazing how speculation can go wild on occasion. Of the 18 maternity hospitals, 11 of them have only three obstetricians, which means there is only one obstetrician on-call at the weekend. That was evidenced recently in a case in Waterford when all three obstetricians were on holidays at the one time and a locum was dealing with a case involving an unfortunate end result. That gives an indication of the pressures that are on maternity hospitals around the country. In 2003 the Hanly report clearly set out that by 2012 we would have a total of 3,600 consultants in this country. As of today there are 2,500. We are 1,100 off the target. The need for consultants applies very much in maternity hospitals around the country, especially in smaller three-consultant units. People need to take that into account in the context of the impracticality of the speculation. The alleged proposal was never on the table and it is purely wild speculation.

I wish to touch on one other issue, namely, the animal fodder shortage. I thank the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine for the work he is doing in this area. He has made €1 million available to help with the transport of fodder from England to this country, making it cheaper for farmers to avail of it. It is also important to realise that the Minister and his Department have been working hard to deal with the issue in recent months. It is not yesterday or today that they are responding to it. The Minister is meeting with the CEOs of all the co-operatives this morning and with the banks. It is important that he or a Minister of State would come to the House to outline the results of the consultations in order that people are kept fully informed and that there is not unnecessary alarm. The Government is responding.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time.

Senator Marc MacSharry

I second the amendment by my colleague, Senator Darragh O’Brien. I agree wholeheartedly with Senator Norris. I have seen the reports as well. For far too long Parliament has been subservient to Government, and the people are subservient to all of us. It seems now that the Government is subservient to civil servants and that is fundamentally wrong. I would welcome if any information could be made available in the context of the liquidation of the IBRC. Senator Norris is correct. As a result of the liquidation of the IBRC, in work-outs with a number of properties around the country where sales were close to completion, all of them have now been put on hold. No information in connection with them can be shared with anybody and the reality is that the people once again come last. As many of us on both sides of this House have said, it is time that the people began to come first in all of our considerations in this House. That is not going to cost anything. For many years, Ministers from all parties and none, have always said that we must be conscious of the markets, the European Central Bank, the systemic importance of the other. What about the systemic importance of the people? It is time for once that they came first.

Today in the AV room there will be a presentation at lunch time by a group of people from the north west called the N4 Action Group. The road from Collooney to Castlebaldwin is described by an eminent coroner as the most dangerous stretch of road in the country. It has claimed no fewer than 30 lives. Various Governments had scheduled the works to proceed and this dangerous stretch of road to be upgraded but, regrettably, the NRA has recently suspended the upgrade due to financial constraints. However, curiously, work on the stretch of road between Westport and Castlebar which is nowhere near as dangerous in terms of fatalities has not been suspended. We all know who lives at either end of that particular road. If proximity to the Taoiseach and a Minister is the only criteria by which we determine what roads get done it is a sad day. They are not my words but that of a coroner that this stretch of road is the most dangerous in the country. I ask the Leader to personally involve himself in the debate and to impress upon the Minister that as part of the much celebrated, long-awaited NewERA investment, this particular stretch of road would be given priority as a shovel-ready project to try to save lives rather than expedite political support as we have seen on the Castlebar to Westport stretch of road. I invite everybody to come to the AV room today between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. to hear the presentation for themselves.

Senator Aideen Hayden

As many other Senators and many Members of the Lower House have noticed, Richie Boucher’s pay packet is up for review today at the Bank of Ireland AGM. Aside from the role the State has to play, there is an important role to be played by the ordinary shareholders in Bank of Ireland also. Many institutional investors probably will not oppose Richie Boucher’s package but many ordinary investors at the meeting have lost their shirts and any comfort they would have in their retirement. They have a role to play in asking Richie Boucher to show social solidarity with the ordinary people of this country who have taken many hits in their pay packets.

I wish to refer to a matter raised by Senator Darragh O’Brien, namely, the local authority differential rents system. It is important to note that if one is a social housing tenant in Waterford, one will pay a higher differential rent than one will do if one is a social housing tenant in other parts of the country. The scheme as it stands is unfair. It is not logical that some social housing tenants will pay a minimum rent that is different from a social housing tenant in another part of the country. However, it does raise a bigger issue. I ask the Leader to support me in a call for a debate on the future of local authorities in the provision of social housing. There is a wider issue at stake. It is not just about differential rents, it is about the role local authorities will play. A number of issues face us. Currently, 20,000 additional households a year seek housing. At the same time we have no increased housing provision either from the private sector or from the social housing sector.

We are facing the potential for a real crisis in this country, at a time when local authorities have no access to housing finance to fund either a buy or a build programme. This is a much bigger issue and I ask the Leader to consider allowing a specific debate on the issue.

Senator Feargal Quinn

This morning I attended a meeting of the Arthritis Foundation of Ireland on keeping Ireland fit for work. It was very interesting. The amount of absenteeism in this country is, and has always been, affected by things we can do something about - this meeting showed some of those things. What really concerned me was an item I heard about the other day on the cost of procedures in Irish hospitals compared to the costs for similar procedures in other hospitals in the OECD area. We are charged double the cost. I will give one example. A knee replacement in a hospital in Ireland costs €11,400 while in the UK it costs €5,400. A hip replacement here costs €12,400; in the UK it costs €5,400. I do not understand why it is so expensive here, or why we became so expensive. VHI is very concerned about this and has pointed out that in many cases procedures in public hospitals in Ireland are more expensive than in private hospitals, having increased by 41% since 2009. This deserves a debate. The costs in hospitals in Ireland, and thereby the cost for VHI which must pay them, seems outrageous. It is a cost to the nation as a whole and to employers and as a consequence is also a cost in the creation of new jobs. It is worthwhile having a debate on this in the near future.

I say goodbye to a group of friends we have had for six months. On 23 October the Brent geese came to Ireland. Yesterday they left although there were a few remaining this morning. It is interesting that very many thousands of Brent geese fly from the north of Canada into Strangford Lough and thence to the rest of Ireland. They come on the same day every year and leave on the same day, 23 April. I mention this because every now and then we could do with a debate on the environment. Climate change has meant we no longer have some of the migratory birds coming into Ireland. The first swallows were seen here only last week. We value the environment only to the extent that we protect it.

Senator Paul Coghlan

With the Cathaoirleach's permission and thanks to his good office, I inform the House that the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach will plant a tree, obviously a native species, in Leinster Lawn, in conjunction with the Million Trees in a Day national project. This tree will also commemorate the late Minister of State, Shane McEntee, who, in his ministry, had a great deal to do with forestry and was good on that subject. I thank Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh for his assistance with this project. He liaised with the Northern Ireland Minister for Agriculture who is coming to meet her counterpart, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney. The two Ministers may be present but the planting will be done by the Oireachtas leaders, the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach. I would like as many Members as possible to attend. It is a worthwhile project and is being supported nationally.

Senator Feargal Quinn

Will the Senator name the time and place?

Senator Paul Coghlan

It is at 12 p.m. tomorrow.

Senator David Cullinane

The people have endured a great deal of pain in recent years. Although they have suffered under austerity and all the tough and gruelling budgets of the past five to six years, they have done so against a backdrop of €90 billion of taxpayers' money going into the banks in some form, shape or fashion. More than €30 billion of the money that went into the banks went to recapitalise the pillar banks. The State still has a shareholding in some of the banks, with a 15% shareholding in Bank of Ireland. Some €10 billion of that investment in the banks was to be used to offset losses in the domestic mortgage market but that has not happened yet. The banks have not played ball with people in mortgage distress. I do not believe the State or the people of this country can have confidence in Mr. Richie Boucher or the senior executives of the Bank of Ireland when they are paying themselves exorbitant salaries. It is not tenable for Mr. Boucher to be paid more than €800,000 a year when people are suffering and when many of the customers of that bank are struggling to pay their mortgages. In fact they cannot pay them or pay any of their bills, and cannot even put food on the table, yet this person seems to think it is acceptable to walk away with €800,000 and more.

Senator David Norris

As long as they can do it that is what they will get.

Senator David Cullinane

I do not believe it is about expressing confidence in the bank. This is about the State showing dissatisfaction with the enormous levels of salary that are still being paid to people who are part of the problem. They were part of it in the first place and remain so. This is a person who showed he was inflexible and intransigent when he attended an Oireachtas committee. He showed the contempt he had for elected Members of this and the Lower House and for the people when he refused to engage with these elected representatives, yet the Minister for Finance will not even stand up and make the case that these salaries are completely unjustified.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time.

Senator David Cullinane

The Government has a responsibility to stand up for the people. It is shocking that the Minister for Finance will not use his vote, the 15% shareholding which belongs to the people, and stand up for the majority who will not agree with the huge salary that will be signed off on today by the banks. Although I agree it is important that ordinary shareholders show solidarity-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time.

Senator David Cullinane

-----it is also important that the State shows social solidarity and the Minister should do exactly that today.

Senator Denis Landy

On Monday the Government published a report on pensions that it had commissioned from the OECD. The report goes into great detail on pensions in this country. It recognises that, relatively speaking, there is a generous pension system in place compared with those in other OECD countries. It also recognises the importance of the continuation of the provision of such payments to prevent pension poverty here. However, it throws up many questions and raises many issues in regard to pension provision for people in the future. For example, if a person in private employment or who is self-employed puts money into a pension fund he or she is unable to have that money released if it is needed to keep the business sustainable. Many issues are raised in the report which is now with Government for consideration. The Minister with responsibility, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, has recognised that the current economic situation does not allow movement on this at present. Nothwithstanding that, the issue is extremely important. Will the Leader ask the Minister to come to the House to debate and discuss this report with Members of this House and to provide clarity for people who are concerned about this issue? They are confused because there have been some instances where people put money into pension funds over many years only to discover that up to 50% of their money has been hived off by the companies who are supposed to provide the pensions.

Senator Jim Walsh

I fully concur with what Senator Feargal Quinn stated in regard to the cost of medical procedures in this country. For a long time we have observed medical inflation at levels which are unsustainable. The debate sought by Senator Quinn would be a good and useful starting point for us in regard to this entire area, which obviously reflects badly on the Department of Health and the HSE. It is interesting that in spite of all the recent debates on public service reform and pay levels the situation remains. I refer to hospital consultants but not to them alone - we have only to look at our legal profession. We can see the amount of privilege that is being abused and exploited right across society, to the detriment of those at the lower end of the socio-economic scale.

We still have a situation whereby people like hospital consultants, members of the legal profession and others are abusing and exploiting their positions of privilege, to the detriment of those who are at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. As a House, we could usefully have a good debate on that issue. We should also broaden that debate to include a discussion on the need for a very strong and effective new Department of competitiveness and consumer affairs because in many areas, the consumer is getting a very raw deal.

I support Senator Landy's call for a debate on the recently published report on pensions. The report is timely because the issue of pensions is critical. Many women have no pensions, many leave the workplace during periods of maternity leave and also for periods when they are rearing their children. It is very important to focus on these matters. Many economic commentators over the years have identified pensions as a critical issue. The public service pension bill, for example, will be unsustainable into the future. It needs to be examined.

Senator David Norris

What about the €17.5 billion that the Europeans swiped from the NPRF?

An Cathaoirleach

Please allow Senator Walsh to proceed without interruption.

Senator Jim Walsh

I am well able to speak without others in the House assisting me and ask that I be afforded the courtesy to continue.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is over time now.

Senator Jim Walsh

I will conclude by saying that there was a very good article by Senator Healy Eames in the Sunday Business Post last Sunday. Often times when the Leader-----

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Jim Walsh

Will the Leader and the Committee on Procedure and Privileges consider having debates in this House with people who publish very good, well thought-out, measured papers? Such people could lead the debate in this House and make a useful contribution to public policy.

Senator Michael Comiskey

I congratulate all of the students who were here yesterday and on their behalf, extend my thanks to the Cathaoirleach, Senator Susan O'Keeffe and all of the staff and Members of the House for the way they were treated. I have been in touch with a few of them and received messages from them last night and this morning. They had a very enjoyable day which was also very educational.

Senator Colm Burke has referred to the fodder crisis, which we also discussed in the House last week. I wish to compliment the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine on his work on this issue to date. He has been working very closely with Teagasc over the last number of months and has now made €1 million available to alleviate the problem. There is also an animal welfare fund which people may not be aware of and if there is a serious problem in terms of farmers being unable to feed their animals, they could apply for assistance under that fund. Farmers should contact their local departmental offices for more information.

I spoke to a representative from Connacht Gold this morning and welcome the fact that the Minister will be speaking to the chief executives of all of the dairy co-operatives later today. Connacht Gold has a special ration in its stores at a greatly reduced price, which will also help to alleviate the problem. I hope the grass will start to grow in the next few weeks and this problem will disappear.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Ach an oiread leis an Seanadóir Coghlan, ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis an gCeann Comhairle maidir leis an tacaíocht atá siad ag tabhairt don rud atá ar siúl amárach. As Senator Paul Coghlan has noted, sometimes we get involved in party political spats in these Houses on different issues but certainly one issue that the Senator and I are agreed on and are trying to promote is the One Million Trees in One Day initiative, which is being rolled out in the coming days. A presentation will be given in the audio-visual room tomorrow morning at 9.30 a.m. on the project, which is an all-Ireland one that aims to plant native trees on various sites throughout the island over a 24-hour period. It is a fantastic project. It is also very apt that we will be taking the opportunity to plant a tree in memory of the late Deputy Shane McEntee, given that the last debate in which he engaged with me in this House was on the ash die-back disease. He would definitely have supported this project were he still with us. I hope to see Members at the presentation and the planting ceremony tomorrow.

On that note, perhaps the Leader will indicate when the Government intends to replace Deputy McEntee as Minister of State in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. When will a new Minister of State be appointed? The agricultural sector is going through very difficult times at present and there is also a lot going on in the fisheries sector. In that context, it would be apt and appropriate that a new Minister of State be appointed to make sure there is a full team working on all of the issues involved.

I also commend the Irish Refugee Council on its day of action on the system of direct provision yesterday. I also note that Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness has echoed the sentiments expressed by me and other Senators that the direct provision model is a scandal, almost in the league of the scandal of the Magdalen laundries, that is happening on our watch. It must be addressed and the Leader has indicated his willingness to have a debate on direct provision. I ask him to tell us when such a debate will take place.

Senator Michael Mullins

It is incumbent on the national broadcaster to be extremely careful about the way it presents particular stories. It was quite alarming to hear the national broadcaster suggesting on the "Six One News" programme last night that the fodder shortages and current difficulties being experienced by farmers would lead to an increase in suicide. Everybody accepts that the farming community is going through a difficult time right now but a lot of work is being done behind the scenes, as other speakers have pointed out, to help farmers through this crisis. The money that is being made available to subsidise the transport of fodder from England, through the co-operative societies, is very welcome. Teagasc has been working closely with farmers over the last number of months because it was very obvious from last summer that there would be a fodder shortage this year. Farmers have been getting very good advice on how to manage the use of fodder in the last few months. It is also important that farmers would have access to credit. The Minister is meeting representatives of the dairy co-operatives today and is also meeting representatives of the main banks to ensure that a line of credit is available to farmers to tide them over for the next few weeks.

It is important that there be solidarity among members of the farming community. As public representatives, we must also keep an eye out for people who are vulnerable. There is absolutely no reason for animals to be dying in this country. A welfare fund can be accessed in extreme and difficult situations. It is important to send out that message. The IFA and other farming organisations are liaising closely with the Department on these issues. We are going through difficult times right now but hopefully the situation will improve significantly in the coming weeks. Any linking of increased levels of suicide to the current fodder situation is highly irresponsible.

Senator David Norris

On a point of order, RTE was not directly responsible for that. It was the farmers organisations and Pieta House which made that point. RTE simply broadcast their views.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Senator Martin Conway

Today is national job shadow day, a very interesting and successful initiative which has been organised by the Irish Association of Supported Employment. Indeed, the Taoiseach has participated in the job shadow initiative in the past. The objective of the day is to highlight some of the inequalities suffered by those with disabilities and the obstacles they face when trying to access employment. With that in mind, I welcome Padraic Dormer, who is job-shadowing me for the day in Leinster House. I hope that on future job shadow days other Members of the Oireachtas will take part in the programme. I also compliment the Oireachtas disability liaison office on the work it is doing in this regard.

I also wish to raise the matter of the undocumented Irish in the United States. The legislation to deal with this matter is at a very advanced stage. I note with regret, however, that a person from north Clare who employs 11 people and who happened to be undocumented in the United States for many years, was arrested two weeks ago and is being held in detention in Boston. It is a shame, at this late stage when we have a dawn in terms of a proposed pathway for the legalisation of undocumented people, that the heavy hand is being used to take people who find themselves in this unfortunate position into custody.

The gentleman to whom I refer has created 11 jobs in America, has been very enterprising and has worked extremely hard to make a living not just for himself and his family, but also for 11 other families. I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to have discussions with his colleagues in Washington to see if this very regrettable situation can be resolved.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome the school workplace audits that the Minister, Deputy Quinn, has initiated in school building programmes. I know they are well intentioned as he is concerned about the protection of workers and regulation. However, why is the Minister not using NERA, the professional State labour inspectorate, to carry out these audits instead of using a private company? Obviously there will be costs and quality assurance issues. It would be useful to have that clarified as I have received a number of calls on the matter this morning.

I am uncomfortable that the Government is not using its vote today to express dissatisfaction with the remuneration of Mr. Richie Boucher, which is in excess of the cap. I accept it was put in place by the former Government, but there is considerable concern among the public. This will stick in the craw of many people. I fully respect that the Minister wants the bank to do its own business, get on with its affairs, become independent and give us back our 15% and more. However, Bank of Ireland needs to see this as a goodwill gesture to allow it to move on to achieve the 6% to 10% cuts in remuneration, including pensions, mentioned in the Mercer report. It is Mr. Boucher's job to achieve this.

Senator Catherine Noone

I would have raised this matter yesterday, but I am conscious that we are only supposed to raise one issue on the Order of Business. Yesterday, the policy group on alcohol of the Royal College of Physicians in Ireland called for the introduction of minimum pricing as a matter of urgency, with other key measures to tackle alcohol marketing and availability. While the level of alcohol consumption has dropped, very harmful levels are still being consumed. Binge drinking means that people are consuming greater amounts on one occasion. Even though the statistics reflect an overall reduction, it is clear that people are drinking in a harmful way. We have discussed many measures, including the segregation of off-licences from supermarkets and shops, the introduction of minimum pricing and the phased withdrawal of alcohol sponsorship of arts and sporting events. When the Minister of State, Deputy White, came to the House previously to discuss the issue, he had just taken up his ministerial position. It would be timely to invite him the House again to discuss the strategy to address our unhealthy relationship with alcohol.

Senator Paschal Mooney

This morning's newspapers report on the cost of rebuilding houses. The Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland pointed out that as building costs have reduced considerably in recent years, consumers should now shop around to ensure they get the best value for insurance. I ask the Leader for a debate with the Minister, Deputy Bruton, who, I believe, has responsibility for the insurance industry. This has been a long-running sore particularly since the downturn. I did some investigations into the area of rebuilding costs. I live in County Leitrim, which has suffered more than most as a result of reckless building by developers and pseudo-developers in recent years. At 25% we have the highest proportion of both unfinished and unused housing stock, and the housing market in County Leitrim will never recover because of the surplus stock.

However, what the insurance industry is charging for rebuilding has not reduced. In fact, it operates a system - I believe it is the architects in association with the insurance industry - with four benchmarks across the country. Leitrim, with Sligo in the north west and Roscommon in the midlands, is included with Galway. In other words, the cost to rebuild a house in Galway applies to County Leitrim. The industry claims it costs €122 per sq. ft. to rebuild. Builders in County Leitrim and the midlands generally would rebuild for as little as €90 per sq. ft. I am sure the same would even be true in Waterford and the south east. It is a scandal and consumers are being ripped off. The industry has not changed these benchmarks in spite of the economic downturn. I call for an investigation into the insurance industry, which is ripping off consumers by charging higher premiums based on exorbitant rebuilding costs. At the end of the day if the house has to be rebuilt, it will not be €122 per sq. ft. but whatever the current market conditions are in the area. This is a consumer issue for which I believe the Minister, Deputy Bruton, has responsibility. I would be grateful for guidance on the issue. The matter should be debated in the House and exposed for the sham and scam it is.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Darragh O'Brien spoke about savings of 6% to 10% in the banks. A number of Senators raised the matter again today, even though I believe I addressed it yesterday. I will not presume what the banks might do in regard to the cuts of 6% to 10% the Minister has requested. Regarding Mr. Boucher, the Government holds a 15% stake. I believe a salary of €840,000 or €900,000 is immoral. It is a salary that was negotiated by the previous Government and agreed with it.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

No, the Leader is wrong.

Senator Maurice Cummins

For the banks in which the State has a majority stakeholding a cap has been introduced-----

Senator Darragh O'Brien

By us.

Senator Maurice Cummins

-----and is being implemented.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

The Leader's facts are wrong.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader to continue, without interruption.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I am trying to answer if Senator Darragh O'Brien would let me. He will have enough time to interrupt during his party's Ard-Fheis over the weekend.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

The Leader is welcome to come along.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader to continue, without interruption.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Darragh O'Brien also spoke about a tax on online betting, with which I fully agree. That Bill has been on the agenda for quite some time and I will inquire as to when it will be brought before the House. There is a need to tax online betting, as there are major dangers for everybody. We regularly discuss the issues of smoking and alcohol but very few mention gambling addiction and the dangers of online betting, in particular. I will certainly try to have that Bill brought before the House as soon as possible. I will make inquiries as to when that will happen and report back to Senators.

On the increase in rents for local authority tenants, the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, came to the House on 6 February. I will ask her to come here again to deal with the issue of local authority rents.

Senator Aideen Hayden and others also requested a debate on the role of local authorities in providing social housing. I will ask the Minister of State to come and address that matter, but as I said, she appeared here only a few weeks ago.

Senator Ivana Bacik and others spoke about direct provision accommodation, another matter raised on the Order of Business yesterday. While the numbers have reduced significantly, it remains a problem.

I have asked the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to come before the House to debate the issue and a number of other matters in his portfolio which are of concern to Members. As everyone is aware, the Minister has a very busy schedule. However, I hope he will be able to find time to come before us for a debate on these issues in the near future.

Senators Ivana Bacik and David Norris welcomed the outcome of the vote in France on gay marriage. They also noted the decision of the Constitutional Convention on that matter.

Senator Ivana Bacik and others referred to the protection of maternal life Bill. I would prefer to await - I encourage others to do so - the publication of the legislation in question before commenting on any speculation on this matter. We should all tread carefully and await the publication of the protection of maternal life Bill which will probably be forthcoming prior to the summer recess.

Senator David Norris referred to the ECB silencing the State on the IBRC legislation. I agree with him that it is completely unacceptable for the ECB to give an instruction of the sort to which reference has been made. This highlights the fact that the sooner we can extricate ourselves from the bailout, the better it will be because we will then be in a position to run our own affairs and get back our sovereignty in financial matters.

Senator Colm Burke has highlighted the fact that, in the context of the target set in the Hanly report, there is a shortage of 1,100 consultants in the health service. The Senator, with Senators Michael Comiskey, Michael Mullins and others, referred to the fodder crisis and complimented the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine on the manner in which he is addressing it. The Minister has met representatives from the banks and the co-ops. I understand he is meeting the CEO of the co-ops again this morning in order to address the problem. I hope the expected increased growth of grass in the coming days and weeks will help to alleviate the problems being experienced by the farming community.

Senator Marc MacSharry referred to the N4 action group. There is no question that the stretch of road mentioned by the Senator is extremely dangerous. I am not going to comment on which road projects are due to proceed and which are not. Fianna Fáil would know much more about political patronage in that regard than most other parties.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Fine Gael is not doing badly in that area.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

The Cathaoirleach might like to make a comment on that matter.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Feargal Quinn referred to the cost of procedures in Irish hospitals as compared to the cost in the United Kingdom.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Senator Marc MacSharry inquired about a possible extension.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader to continue, without interruption.

Senator Maurice Cummins

The matter to which Senator Feargal Quinn is certainly worthy of debate. The fact that hospital procedures here cost 40% more than in the United Kingdom is an absolutely damning indictment. The Senator also referred to Brent geese and the need for a debate on the environment. I hope the departure of the Brent geese will mean that we will see some more sunshine.

Senators Paul Coghlan and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh referred to the planting of a tree on Leinster Lawn tomorrow in commemoration of our late colleague Shane McEntee. This is being done in conjunction with the One Million Trees in One Day project. I appreciate Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh's comments on our late colleague, for which I thank him.

Senators Denis Landy and Jim Walsh referred to the OECD report on pensions. This matter was raised yesterday by Senator Marie Moloney. I will ask the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to come before the House for a debate on the report.

Senator Michael Comiskey referred to the difficulties in agriculture, while Senator Michael Mullins highlighted the fact that moneys from the animal welfare fund were available for members of the farming community.

Senator Martin Conway referred to national job shadow day and the difficulties experienced by people with disabilities. The Senator has highlighted that matter in the House on numerous occasions. He also referred to the undocumented Irish and the problems experienced by some individuals in the United States. If he is aware of a specific case and he wants to provide me with the details, I will certainly make representations on his behalf to the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. I am sure the Senator has made or will make his own representations in the matter.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames raised the matter of school workplace audits and inquired as to why the services of the National Employment Rights Authority were not used. I will check the position in that regard with the relevant Minister. I note the comments of the Senator in the context of the CEO of the Bank of Ireland, a matter I have addressed.

Senator Catherine Noone referred to the important issue of the establishment of a policy group on alcohol by the Royal College of Physicians in Ireland. I will ask the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Alex White, to come before the House to discuss the matter.

Senator Paschal Mooney referred to the fact that while building costs had decreased, insurance costs had not followed suit. The Senator also referred to the fact that insurance companies were charging higher premiums. As this matter comes within the remit of the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, I will endeavour to have him come before the House to address the concerns relating to it.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That 40 minutes be set aside today for a debate on the increase in rent applicable to local authority housing." Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Darragh O'Brien

It is.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 25.

Tá

• Byrne, Thomas.
• Crown, John.
• Cullinane, David.
• Daly, Mark.
• Heffernan, James.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Mooney, Paschal.
• Mullen, Rónán.
• Norris, David.
• Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
• Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• Power, Averil.
• Quinn, Feargal.
• Reilly, Kathryn.
• Walsh, Jim.
• Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

• Bacik, Ivana.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Burke, Colm.
• Coghlan, Eamonn.
• Coghlan, Paul.
• Comiskey, Michael.
• Conway, Martin.
• Cummins, Maurice.
• Harte, Jimmy.
• Hayden, Aideen.
• Healy Eames, Fidelma.
• Henry, Imelda.
• Higgins, Lorraine.
• Keane, Cáit.
• Kelly, John.
• Landy, Denis.
• Moloney, Marie.
• Moran, Mary.
• Mullins, Michael.
• Noone, Catherine.
• O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
• O'Keeffe, Susan.
• O'Neill, Pat.
• Sheahan, Tom.
• van Turnhout, Jillian.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paschal Mooney and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.

Amendment declared lost.

Question, "That the Order of Business be agreed to," put and declared carried.