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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Jul 2013

Vol. 224 No. 9

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications on promoting a sustainable future for the post office network, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 1.15 p.m., with the contributions of Senators not to exceed six minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 1.05 p.m.; and No. 2, Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution (Abolition of Seanad Éireann) Bill 2013 - Second Stage (resumed), to be taken at 1.15 p.m. and to be adjourned not later than 4.30 p.m., if not previously concluded.

I thank the Leader for extending the time for Second Stage of the Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution (Abolition of Seanad Éireann) Bill 2013. We have six speakers remaining and I acknowledge the position on the Government side. The proposal is sensible in that it will give everyone who wants to speak an opportunity to do so. That is important.

On Tuesday, I tabled an amendment to the Order of Business on the new Central Bank statutory code of conduct on mortgage arrears that the Government brought forward and approved. The Leader suggested to me on that morning that I raise my concerns directly with the Minister for Finance under the Central Bank (Supervision and Enforcement) Bill 2011. I took him up on his advice and endeavoured to elicit as many answers to the questions as I could from the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, on the day. None was answered because, as I mentioned to the Leader, they were not relevant to that Bill. The Minister of State was not required to answer the questions that I asked.

To remind the House, I specifically asked why the Government was removing the 12 month moratorium and would now be allowing banks after three months to issue legal proceedings to repossess homes. I also asked why the Government was removing the maximum number of contacts someone in mortgage arrears could have with a bank from three a month to any number the bank wanted such that if at any time the bank wanted to ring the person concerned, knock at his or her door, call to him or her, hassle and harangue him or her, that was what the code of conduct on mortgage arrears meant it could do.

Ulster Bank completely misled the public in its statement earlier in the week that 35% of those in mortgage arrears were strategic defaulters. That is absolute rubbish and, frankly, a lie. I ask Ulster Bank to produce the figures that apparently prove one third of those in mortgage arrears with the bank are strategic defaulters. It is total nonsense.

Banks talk about co-operating and non-co-operating borrowers. I asked the Leader on Tuesday what was the Government's definition of a co-operating or non-co-operating bank and why, in God's name, had the Government and the Central Bank given the banks everything they wanted in this new code of conduct on mortgage arrears. There is no independent appeals office, which we brought forward by way of legislation, only for the Government to vote it down, although this was recommended by New Beginnings, the Independent Mortgage Advisers Federation and many other independent groups. It would mean there would be an arbitration process whereby the decision would not be left to the banks, that the banks would be the ones to come forward with what they believed was a sustainable solution, and, if the mortgage holder could not meet this, all bets would be off.

What the Government is proposing in the statutory code of conduct is free gain for banks against those in mortgage arrears. I remind the House that one in four mortgages is either in arrears for 30 days or more, or has been restructured. Nearly 50% of restructured mortgages have gone back into arrears. I do not believe anyone in his or her right mind can stand over the new code of conduct.

During the course of the debate on the Central Bank (Supervision and Enforcement) Bill 2011 I directly asked the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, the questions I had put to the Leader on Tuesday and not one answer did I receive. As a result, I am again proposing an amendment to the Order of Business that we allow one hour for either the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, or the Minister of State at that Department, Deputy Brian Hayes, to come to the House to answer the questions many of us have regarding how the code of conduct will protect mortgage holders and why the Government allowed the banks to get everything they wanted in it. I will continue to propose amendments to the Order of Business every single day until we have a specific debate in order that we can all tease out this issue because I know Members on the Government side are just as concerned about it as I am, as has been referred to on the Order of Business and in debates all the way through. I formally propose that amendment to the Order of Business.

As Senator Darragh O'Brien knows, I share his concerns about the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. It is ironic that people are having breakfast this morning and reading reports that the European Central Bank is going to leave rates as they are, even though many know they could not survive a rise of two interest points in the ECB rate; that is the situation in this country. It is a very serious matter and I would go so far as to say it is the most serious matter facing the country. I share Senator Darragh O'Brien's concern and ask the Leader to have the Minister come to the House at his earliest possible convenience, as I have called for on numerous occasions. However, I appreciate the position the Leader is in and know that he has made his absolute best efforts to ensure that debate will take place. Therefore, I would not be in favour of putting him under any more pressure than he is under. We have to accept that he is doing his absolute best as Leader of the House.

I wish our American brethren a happy Fourth of July and the best on their national holiday.

I welcome the announcement made yesterday that St. Patrick's Institution was to close, a most welcome development. Some of the findings by the Inspector of Prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, are nothing short of shocking and appalling. During his visit, after last year's report in which serious concerns were raised, he found a prisoner in a filthy committal cell, with a considerable quantity of stale food on the floor. There was a broken toilet which was filthy and full of excrement. He found another prisoner who had been taken from his cell and strip searched, although no records had been created. In another cell he found two prisoners who were afraid to leave because they had been badly beaten and one had been stabbed three times.

This is both serious and a national disgrace. On a previous occasion I called for the setting up of a commission of inquiry to examine what had gone on in St. Patrick's Institution over many decades. Calls for its closure have been made for in excess of 20 years. It is a national disgrace that, as a country, we wait for people who have suffered at the hands of the State to take individual actions. We should have a permanent commission of inquiry in areas where the State has provided care, particularly for children.

I will conclude by noting that two out of every three children who leave the care of the State and a greater number of those who have been in the prison service experience homelessness within two years. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, in this House committed to having an after-care service for these children. I ask the Leader to have the Minister in the House as soon as possible to explain what progress has been made in providing after-care services for children who have been in the care of the State.

I note that in the Financial Times today there is an article by the associate editor, Mr. John Gapper, which states:

This week brought two announcements that strike at the distortions caused to banking by cheap credit and the underpricing of risk over past decades. One was the US Federal Reserve’s decision to implement the Basel III capital rules, and to add extra measures. The other was the European Commission’s assault on how banks trade credit derivatives.

He concludes: "It was never going to be easy to reform bad banking habits acquired over decades but, several years after the crash, banks are facing the inevitable regulatory reckoning". We have to be alert to these developments and, as we had a bigger banking problem than anybody else, more resolute.

In this House the issue of the tapes was raised. I commend the Minister for Finance, Michael Deputy Noonan, and Deputy Pearse Doherty for pursuing the issue and hope we can get all of them. Parliament will have to take on this task, as the Leader commented yesterday. We did not get a sense of urgency in the legislation we discussed during the week, but I commend both the Minister and Deputy Pearse Doherty for pursuing the issue of the tapes and trying to discover where they have been for the past three years and why they have not been available.

I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Hayes - or the other Mr. Hayes, as we will have to call him as we now have two Ministers of State with the name Hayes - for the strength of the debate here yesterday and accepting in principle the Food Provenance Bill proposed by Senator Feargal Quinn. His prepared script was leading him to take the opposite point of view. This is not the first time it has happened that the Civil Service has prepared scripts against Bills prepared by Members of this House. The usual recipe is that it is not constitutional and that it would have-----

We cannot discuss yesterday's business.

Use it as a reference point in the future. It is a well known academic discipline.

I will bear that in mind. I am commending the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Hayes, and the Leader. This will have unintended consequences. The Bill, if implemented, will do the exact opposite to what the Senator said and it was suggested the European Union would not like it. The European Union is our competitor in this business. It gave us daft rules on the insuring of women in driving cars and tobacco marketing. It also did not like smiling babies on infant formula, one of our major businesses. At some stage it might add that the Bill, if implemented, will cause obesity and-or global warming. The problem we face is that the knee-jerk reaction in Civil Service circles is to reject every Bill we propose. We are living in a parliamentary democracy. If it is of help to the Leader, I suggest we organise a meeting between the Senator who proposes a Bill and the relevant Minister and Minister of State before the civil servants get their hands on it and find all sorts of reasons it cannot proceed.

I raise an important issue that has just come to my notice in regard to medical card assessments.

The practice in the past was that if somebody had a house improvement loan it was allowable in the medical card guidelines. A person who had a car for going to work was allowed €50 for depreciation, etc. Since the beginning of April this facility has been withdrawn. I phoned the Primary Care Reimbursement Service, PCRS, yesterday and they told me the legislative basis for it was the Health (Alteration of Criteria for Eligibility) Act, introduced on 28 March 2013. I looked at that Act today in fine detail. If this change is in that Act I am amazed and it is well hidden but I do not believe it is there. To coincide with the introduction of that Act the HSE decided to withdraw both these facilities, which means people will lose their medical cards.

Banks encouraged people to take these home-improvement loans. Yet again, the hard-pressed are being made to pay for this on the double. I am flabbergasted by this. It is sneaky and underhanded treatment of people who are up to their tonsils in debt. Having worked with these people I assure the House that if we take away their mortgages, car loans and home-improvement loans etc., they would be better on the dole. I ask the Leader to bring this to the attention of the Minister for Health and ask him if there should be a legislative basis for the HSE doing this or if it is the case that the HSE cannot be held to account for this.

I commend Senator Kelly. He is missed as a community welfare officer in Ballaghaderreen where he was very fair and good to clients. I wish he were a Minister in that Department where he could bring about those innovations.

Some day soon.

He will not have much success with the Labour Party. I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Darragh O'Brien. He made a very good point. I share in the congratulations to the United States of America on this great day, 4 July, the 237th anniversary of the independence of the United States of America. What would Ireland have achieved if it had 237 years of independence, not just 90? I commend Senator Kathryn Reilly on bringing forward her report today, Guarantee our Future: A Report on the Need for a Youth Guarantee from the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs. It is a very worthwhile report and I recommend our colleagues get it. It is proof positive that the Seanad has done the State some service, having a young Senator here who can use her talents to bring forward a report of this quality and have it debated. This should be recognised.

I have put the following point before, and I again propose the establishment of an organisation similar to the US Peace Corps, which would engage up to 50,000 young people, qualified and unqualified, such as plasterers, electricians, labourers, block layers, nurses, teachers and so forth, to use their skills for a limited period in Third World countries. It would be very similar to the Niall Mellon Township Trust which does enormous work in shanty towns in South Africa. It would be under the engineering corps of the Irish Army for security and support. This would be a pilot scheme for Europe. Instead of just sending out Third World aid money and not being sure who is spending it, where and how, it would be spent employing young people manufacturing houses in Ireland to be built in shanty towns. This would create enormous opportunities. We must be more innovative. Let us do something radical, outside the box and think about this. We have the skills knowledge and expertise in this House to tease this idea out in a debate this autumn and I ask the Leader to consider this in detail.

I agree with the general thrust of Senator Darragh O'Brien's remarks on the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. I also have a slight disagreement. He talked about it as though it were Government policy. This document was agreed, drawn up by the Central Bank in consultation with all the stakeholders.

It was drawn up by the Department of Finance.

The Central Bank is independent. Senator Darragh O'Brien knows that.

The Government cannot wash its hands of it.

Senator Gilroy makes my point. The Central Bank has a certain independence. I agree there is a need for balance. We cannot have the banks being allowed to ride roughshod over so many in society given their recent history, particularly regarding harassment. On that I agree strongly with Senator Darragh O'Brien. The Leader is on our side on this. There must be arbitration and we must involve some independent office, but I urge a debate on this before the recess. The Leader has tried his best to ensure we have it and I agree with him on it. It is an absolute need.

I agree very much with the remarks and I compliment the Inspector of Prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, on what he has done, closed St. Patrick's Institution, which, as has been said, should have been closed long ago. I congratulate our new European Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly, on her success. Hopefully later today we might be able to share with our American cousins some Independence Day celebration.

I support Senator Darragh O'Brien's comments on the banks. Regrettably, every Government action, legislative and otherwise, has been to rebalance matters in favour of the banks and against the individual customer. Ulster Bank came in very aggressively promoting unrealistic loans, and to hear that English person talking about repossession of Irish homes was utterly disgusting and repellant. Let us celebrate 237 years of American independence. As Senator Barrett pointed out, during those 237 years they found their Senate very useful. They have not got rid of that. Perhaps that is something the Taoiseach, Deputy Kenny, could learn from them.

I have read this Bill. Many of the people who have spoken about it have not read it. It is obvious from what they say because they are saying they cannot vote against it because they would be denying the people a referendum. Rubbish. They should read the Bill. There is not one mention of the word "referendum" in this Bill or in the explanatory memorandum. It is entitled, Abolition of Seanad Éireann Bill. There are phrases such as "abolition day". There is not one whisper about a referendum. This is massive con job. It is a lie by the Government. They are trying to persuade us that if we vote against our own abolition we are voting against giving the people a choice. This is nonsense. No person of integrity could vote for this Bill and remain in the House. It is not giving the people a vote. We can all agree with that. We have all been looking for that. We have been begging the Government to do it and it has not. This is a massive lie perpetrated on the Irish people. I hope they will see through it because it is a power grab and a deception.

The people are used as a convenience. This is one opportunity. If they want to give the Government a little slap because of austerity, what it has done to the carers or the rebalancing in favour of the banks, this is the one opportunity for a free kick. If they defeat this referendum it will hurt the Government's pride, it will not hurt the economy of this country, it will help save democracy and we will ensure this House is reformed. In the meantime I do not want to hear anybody say this has to be voted through because it is the will of the people. It is not. Nobody can say they do not know. I have put it on the record. Let anyone who votes for this Bill get to hell out of this House and stop taking his or her salary. Anyone who thinks we are not worth it, are useless and ought to be abolished is unfit to take money from the people.

Hear, hear. It is taxpayers' money.

I agree with many of Senator Norris's sentiments. I want to raise an issue about two pre-schools in Donegal. It was raised here yesterday regarding an emergency motion tabled by a Fianna Fáil Senator.

I am disgusted by the methods he used. He targeted me personally in the local media to say that I had personally blocked a debate on the two special schools. He has used vulnerable people in Donegal and their parents who are holding out for hope. Senator Ó Domhnaill is a disgrace and I am ashamed today to say I know him.

Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader?

You are putting that the wrong way, Jimmy. You voted against the kids. My God, Jimmy, you have nothing in you.

Senator Ó Domhnaill is a liar.

Senator Harte signed it and voted against the kids.

Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader? Senator, withdraw that remark.

He is a liar because-----

Withdraw that remark.

You are cornered now, Jimmy.

I will withdraw it and make a point.

Do you have a question for the Leader? We are on the Order of Business. We are not discussing yesterday's business today.

I was accused.

Do you have a question for the Leader?

I can make a personal statement because I have been accused and used by Senator Ó Domhnaill, who did not come to the debate.

This is not the forum for that. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Ó Domhnaill was part of the Government that closed St. Agnes's.

St. Agnes's is still open, Jimmy. It is your Government that is closing it. Get your facts right.

Senator Ó Domhnaill, please.

The review has been put in place.

Senator, we are not discussing St. Agnes's today.

I am sure the Fianna Fáil Senators-----

On a point of order, if the Senator wants a debate on this issue, there is one on Highland Radio tonight.

That is not a point of order.

(Interruptions).

On a point of order, I thought I was in Seanad Éireann, but it appears I have inadvertently wandered into a meeting of Donegal County Council.

That is not a point of order. Does Senator Harte have a question for the Leader?

I have a question for the Leader. I want a debate on-----

I am asking you if you have a question for the Leader on today's Order of Business.

Yes. I ask for a debate on the two specialist schools that Senator Ó Domhnaill has cynically used for a political end. I will tell you something else-----

Those matters were debated on the Adjournment last night.

They were not. That was totally different. I had a debate last night on hospitals in Donegal, which was important.

There was an Adjournment matter.

Senator Ó Domhnaill told the people of Donegal that the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, would not come to the Chamber.

We are not discussing that.

Senator Ó Domhnaill told lies.

Senator, resume your seat. I call Senator Cullinane.

I am disgusted to be in the same county as him.

Senator, resume your seat.

I will resume my seat when I have cleared my name. The people of Donegal know me better.

Resume your seat.

They know why Senator Ó Domhnaill is before the Standards in Public Office Commission.

Senator, will you respect the Chair? I call Senator Cullinane.

Make that statement outside the Chamber, Jimmy.

I support the proposal to amend the Order of Business. It is a scandal that we have not had a debate in the House on the banking situation. Everywhere in the country, people are talking about the Anglo Irish Bank tapes and bankers and they want justice. They hear the Government talk about an Oireachtas inquiry and they want that to happen as soon as possible. What they really want, however, is a full criminal investigation which leads to people being brought before the courts. There are many other issues which must be discussed as well as a criminal investigation, which will obviously have to take its course. There are many issues with banking that we still need to tease out and discuss. Everybody except the Members of the Seanad and Dáil is being given the opportunity to talk about it. We should have the opportunity too.

I join Senator Leyden in commending the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs and the youngest Member of the Oireachtas, Senator Kathryn Reilly, on the publication of Guaranteeing our Future, a report on youth unemployment. The Seanad is often criticised for its role, but here is an example of the youngest Member using her time in the House to hold consultation meetings with youth organisations and to bring forward through the committee a report on a very important issue affecting people in the State. There was a very good attendance by Oireachtas members in the media. It is an example of how Senators can use the Chamber and committees effectively to deal with important, relevant issues. Importantly, the document is short and simple and makes clear recommendations underpinned by genuine consultation with affected people, including young unemployed people and the organisations that support them. In light of what is happening in Europe and discussions on the youth guarantee, towards which the Government appears to be moving, I call for a debate with the relevant Minister in the wake of those discussions and the publication of the joint committee's important report.

I congratulate Emily O'Reilly, the new European Ombudsman. It is a remarkable achievement to succeed in securing the appointment.

I thank Senator Quinn for his debate yesterday evening. While I take the Cathaoirleach's point about refraining from comment on yesterday's business, I note that the discussion on the important issue of food labelling raised, yet again, the issue of children's health and rising levels of obesity. I am aware that the Leader has been in negotiations with the Minister for Health to have a debate on the matter in the context of public consultation. We spoke yesterday about the possibility of asking the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, and, perhaps, the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Tom Hayes, to come to the House to discuss the matter. The purpose of the debate would be to examine obesity in children, how we feed our children, exercise in schools and food labelling. It is an enormous long-term difficulty on which we still have not grasped the nettle. We are approaching the issue piecemeal without putting it centre stage where it ought to be. The risk to children's health is one thing but the cost to the nation is huge. While we talk about saving money in many other areas, we are saving a penny to spend a pound later in this case. It is foolish economics and it puts the lives of our children at risk. I urge the Leader to provide for a debate on the matter as soon as possible.

I join colleagues in congratulating our friends in the United States of America on the anniversary of their independence. It is salutary to remind the House that not only is there a US Senate, but bicameral systems operate in all of the states and have done so since the 18th century. Obviously they are doing something right, but the message has not got through to the Taoiseach, who, I am more and more convinced, is on a solo run. He is increasingly isolated on the bizarre approach he has taken to parliamentary reform.

I wish to raise an issue that is totally unrelated to what I have just said, namely, that of the national bee colony. While it may seem like a trivial matter, it is in fact extremely serious. According to reports in the national newspapers today, the Irish bee colony is declining at an alarming rate. It is something that started in the United States. Bees are affected by a viral infection, which has been compounded by the atrociously bad weather we have experienced over the last two years. When I refer to a serious decline, I mean a decline which has devastating consequences and impacts beyond those who are beekeepers. It is actually affecting our tourist industry. We have a very proud record of producing top-class honey in various parts of the country which is marketed as an Irish product abroad. I ask the Leader to parallel the approach in the UK, where a similarly drastic decline is being experienced. The UK Government has announced in the last two days that it is initiating an urgent review of the crisis. I ask that the relevant Minister initiate an urgent review of the crisis in Ireland to establish exactly what the cause of the problem is and how it can be addressed to arrest the alarming decline in the Irish bee colony. It is obvious that it is a matter within the remit of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and, possibly, may be a responsibility of the newly appointed Minister of State at that Department, Deputy Tom Hayes, who attended the House last night.

I ask the Leader to arrange at the earliest juncture for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come to the Seanad before the budget to ensure that the expertise and business acumen represented in the House is put to good use to help salvage the main streets and urban centres of towns up and down the country. Main Street, Ireland, is on its knees. Businesses on main streets are closing down across the country on a weekly basis. I see it in my home town of Portlaoise, where Main Street is a pale shadow of what was once a vibrant business centre.

It is not just a simple matter affecting one or two towns, it is a national issue. We have a role to play and we can intervene. There are things we can do to support the revival and regeneration of urban centres and main streets. This is the year of The Gathering. Tourists do not come to Ireland to visit Tesco, Lidl or Aldi. They come to see the artisan businesses, the family shops and cafés up and down the country. However, now many of our main streets are left with little other than bars, bookies and burger joints. There are hollowed out centres and vacant and derelict sites. It is a scandal and a disgrace and we must intervene and support family-run businesses. We have the capacity to do so. There was an urban renewal scheme in the 1980s and something similar could now be used. It is not as simple as rates; other issues include tax incentives and planning. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government could come to the Chamber and we could put forward constructive, creative ideas that could be embedded in budget proposals before Main Street, Ireland disappears altogether.

I repeat my request to the Leader and I ask him to reconsider his response that only ten minutes would be allotted to speakers on the Second Stage of the so-called Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill. This is one of the most important, dramatic and far-reaching items of legislation to come before the Houses. It is unacceptable-----

The timings can be decided on the day of the debate.

That may be the case but the response yesterday was unsatisfactory and I ask the Leader to reconsider. In order to look at these issues properly in terms of the overall policy, as distinct from looking at matters section by section, more time is needed. That is the least we can expect given what the Government is proposing. I would also take exception to the Leader's reference to filibustering in his response. I thought it was a cheap shot and I do not know who it was directed at but I assume it is directed at those who have expressed significant concern about the legislation.

I have filibustered in the past, so has Senator Mullen.

I do not regard the tactic of filibustering as being appropriate-----

Some 77 amendments were submitted, all exactly the same.

-----but I believe in searching and sustained scrutiny of serious issues. It is not acceptable to have a nod and wink arrangement whereby on one hand there is tacit approval from the Government side and from the Leader when people do whatever is necessary to speak up for the retention of the Seanad and to speak for as long as possible while, at the same time, curtailing the Seanad in its function, a function we should lay claim to at this time more than ever, of scrutinising legislation carefully and, if necessary, at length. I ask the Leader not to go there again on the subject of filibustering but rather to respect the conscience and professionalism of Members. I ask him to reconsider the proposal that a mere ten minutes be allotted to each speaker on Second Stage.

Senator Mullen is over time.

I join Senator Aideen Hayden in expressing welcome for the news that St Patrick's Institution for Young Offenders is due to close.

I call Senator Healy Eames.

It is shocking in this day and age that human dignity is so disrespected, as it has been in this institution.

On a point of order and information, can the Leader inform us whether ten minutes was exactly the same amount of time given to us to speak on the referendum Bill?

That is not a point of order.

Some people abused their privilege and spoke for 15 and 16 minutes but I cannot legislate for that.

I add my words to the request for the Leader to accede to a greater amount of time on the abortion Bill. It would be helpful.

I join in the welcome for the report on the youth guarantee produced this morning by our great colleague, Senator Kathryn Reilly. She is absent at the moment but we are very proud of her and it needs to be kept up. If we are not concerned about our youth, we are not concerned about our country and its future.

I strongly support the words of the Ombudsman for Children, Emily Logan, who welcomed the closure of St. Patrick's Institution for Young Offenders, as I do, and said that staff working with young offenders need to be very carefully selected. How we care for and treat young people who have offended, as young as 17 and 18 years of age, will affect their rehabilitation. I have worked with some of these young people and while they have done wrong in many cases, they have also been let down by society. Many of the causes are complex. Sometimes it is because they have had ADHD that has not been treated or they may have been let down by family, the education system, social workers and society. This is a key group of young people to assist so that they do not reoffend and so that they see futures outside of crime. That is good for us all because we all want to see crime figures coming down. We do not want to be growing crime by not treating young people right in detention centres. If we are really serious about attacking the problems that affect our society, we need a debate on the issue of how to rehabilitate young people in prison and how we treat them so that we are serious about tackling the causes of crime.

I would like to draw the attention of Members to a meeting between the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and the representatives of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul on the evening before yesterday. The austerity programme is being run by four men, the economic council of the Government, despite half the country being made up of women. These four men running the country have been closeted, in the main, in this building with very little experience outside the House.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I want the Leader to get the Taoiseach to come to the Chamber, along with the Minister for Finance and Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul told us it is spending over €1 million per week providing direct assistance to individuals and families struggling with the cost of food, energy and education. Households with children are the largest group helped by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. Reductions in the disposable income of families, due to increased taxation and cuts in child benefit and social welfare payments, means increasing numbers of children are living in poverty. More than 300,000 children are going without the basic necessities of heating, warm clothing and nutritious food because their parents cannot afford it.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I ask Members to remember that the future of our country lies in the hands of our children. Please do not make these cruel cuts to the weakest and most vulnerable people in our society in budget 2014.

I join in the congratulations to Senator Kathryn Reilly and her committee on the production of the timely report Guaranteeing Our Future - a report on the need for a youth guarantee. The employment issue dovetails with a call this morning by Senator John Whelan for a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government on the revival and rejuvenation of town centres. Many small businesses are going to the wall and shedding high numbers of employees, many of whom are young people. The Senator is correct in that it is not an issue of rates alone. We must look at what we can do as a Government to help stimulate some activity in town centres.

He is correct when he says many tourists do not want to go to the larger supermarkets. They want to see the real Ireland in the towns and villages throughout the country. New businesses sprung up during the Celtic tiger era. Many of them went to the wall and will not return. New boutiques, cafés and venues for people to socialise were not sustainable but many long-standing small businesses are feeling the pinch. I met a businessman recently who closed a men's clothes shop after 18 years in business. It was in downtown Ballinasloe and he could not survive because the larger supermarkets had located on the edge of the town and all his customers were attracted there and away from the centre of town. This is a major issue and a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government would be timely. This would give Members an opportunity to make a meaningful contribution as to how we might kick-start economic activity in small rural towns.

I raised the matter earlier this week of the obscene literature we have been receiving, which resonated with other Members. To my surprise, it resonated with my electorate, namely, county councillors who are in touch with me on matters such as this. Whether they were for or against the legislation, many of them were upset by the obscenity of the stuff they are getting through the post, which I had not been aware of. When someone stands for election to a town council, county council, the Seanad or the Dáil, he or she is obliged to comply with a great deal of red tape regarding campaign expenditure. We are all aware of the plethora of forms we have to fill about what we spent, where we got the funding and so on. The Standards in Public Office Commission and so on are involved. The two sides are spending a great deal of money campaigning on the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013. The pro-life side is spending much more than the pro-choice side. It is an understatement to say the pro-life side is spending at least as much as my party would spend on a general election campaign. Should groups such as these, which are specific to legislation of this magnitude, have to comply with the rigid investigation and scrutiny to which we are subject?

Should those involved have to indicate how much they are spending and, more important, where they are getting it?

Did they have a tent at any race meeting?

Excuse me, I have never interrupted the Senator.

They should register with SIPO, which they refuse to do.

I do not know why Senator Mullen needs an additional ten minutes to contribute to next week's debate because for the past three years he has spent ten minutes a day raising the issue.

Because it is so serious.

Should organisations such as these, as well meaning as many of them may be, be able to spend money without answerability and accountability about how much they are spending and, more particularly, where the money is coming from? People on the street are asking that question. Where is the money coming from? There are murky suggestions about some of it.

I was concerned to hear on radio earlier that the Australian Government intends to review the 457 visa for people who have emigrated to the country. Given many people from counties Sligo and Leitrim have emigrated to work in town and cities there, it is worrying. We should make contact with our counterparts in the Australian Parliament. Last year, Australian Senators visited the House and we should contact them to make sure nothing is done that will affect our emigrants. They have taken good skills with them and they are gaining more while in Australia. They are also helping our economy by sending home much needed money with some paying mortgages on properties they built here. If one visited a pub in any town or city in Australia, one would have no difficulty putting a football team together. We should do all we can. We are working closely with the Americans to make sure the undocumented Irish are looked after and we should do the same regarding Australia.

Ba mhaith liom aontú le mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir Mullen, i dtaca leis an díospóireacht a bheidh ar siúl ag tús na seachtaine seo chugainn maidir le ceist na ginmhillte.

I refer to next week's debate. While people might have differing views on whether contributions are ten or 20 minutes, a compromise could be to set the upper limit at 20 minutes with Members who wish to speak for a shorter period doing so at their own choosing. The Dáil has 166 Members and each was given 20 minutes to contribute. Some Members spoke for a shorter period. We have only 60 Members and it would be fitting where Members have opinions on either side of the argument that they be allowed to speak for 20 minutes with Members wishing to make a shorter contribution having the freedom to do so. A Bill is being introduced and we all have various views, which I will not address now, as we will have an opportunity next week. Perhaps the Leader can consult the Government Chief Whip but I ask him to reflect on my proposal and accede to an upper limit of 20 minutes.

I refer to the Government's wind energy policy and the excellent Bill introduced by Senator John Kelly relating to set-back distances and the need to regulate the wind energy sector, particularly in the context of planning. Major issues have arisen in Cork, Donegal, the midlands, Tyrone and Fermanagh because of the lack of regulation. We need to implement an all-Ireland policy. If possible, could the Leader organise a debate before the end of the session with both the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government regarding whether the Government will accept Senator Kelly's Bill and progress it?

I concur with Senator O'Keeffe regarding the issue of childhood obesity. I commend Senator Quinn on the Food Provenance Bill 2013. I am afraid that labelling is only one aspect of this issue. It goes much deeper than that and I join Senator O'Keeffe in calling for a debate on obesity generally as while it affects children, it also affects adults in a major way with significant costs being borne by the State.

I also support Senator Mullins's comments on small towns. I previously made a proposal to disproportionately tax larger shops, which is the policy in the North. Such a proposal would address the imbalance in small towns caused by planning disasters where large multiples have been sited on the edge of towns thereby sucking the life out of the centre. A tax would mean smaller retailers would have to pay less and large multiples would pay more. That would seek to address the imbalance. I seek a debate on the issue as soon as possible.

Will the Leader use his good offices to ascertain from the Minister for Health the schedule for Committee Stage of our Bill to protect children from the harmful effects of cigarette smoking in cars? First and Second Stages were taken more than a year ago. It was our hope that it would be in place to protect children during the summer holidays in 2012 but nothing happened. In January we had a meeting with officials from the Department of Health who promised that we would have what they referred to, somewhat curiously, as the heads of a Bill.

This is strange because the Minister said he was accepting our Bill, but would table amendments to it. This did not happen by the end of January and it is now July. There are several weeks left before the summer holidays of 2013 and I am hoping that this Bill can be progressed. I do not understand where the delay is. I accept that amendments were necessary regarding matters such as definition of age, burden of proof and a garda's right to challenge people on their age. I also understand the necessity for technical legal advice on that from the Office of the Attorney General. However, it is now a year and a quarter later, even though we were told in January that we would have the Bill by the end of the month. Nothing has happened.

I and the co-sponsors of the Bill are considering what strategies we might employ in the House to have the Bill put on the Order Paper for its next Stage, with the relevant amendments from the Government. However, in the first instance, I ask the Leader to intercede on our behalf. This is an important health-related Bill from the Seanad. While I understand how the Minister's hands were tied by the European Court, it must be said for the record that the only tobacco control legislation passed in this Oireachtas was legislation to loosen tobacco control on foot of the order from the European Court of Justice. It is essential for the reputation of this Oireachtas that this Bill now be given high priority.

I support Senator Crown. It shows the national democratic deficit and dysfunctional nature of the legislative process in this House that when a Member with such a reputation as Senator Crown brings forward legislation that will protect children from the harmful effects of smoking, over a year later it has not progressed an inch. If one wants Members to make a legislative contribution, there is nobody better than Senator Crown on an issue which he knows better than anybody else. However, the bureaucrats in this institution will not allow it to happen. It is dysfunctional government of the highest order.

This is coming from Fianna Fáil.

If my colleague opposite is willing to defend the fact that it has taken a year for a Bill-----

Nobody is defending that.

-----to move nowhere-----

Senator Daly without interruption.

It would protect children from the harmful effects of smoking. Is the Senator willing to defend that lack of legislative progress?

You are a fool. Shut up.

Senator, do you have a question for the Leader?

If he is happy with that, he is more than welcome to stand up and defend the fact that legislation which would protect children from the harmful effects of smoking has not progressed an inch. Is the Senator saying Senator Crown does not have the credibility to say that the legislation should be adopted by the Government? It was adopted by the Government. The Minister for Health came to the House for the debate on the Bill, but it has not moved an inch. Is the Senator happy with that?

Senator, do you have a question for the Leader?

I have a question for the Senator.

The Senator is not answering the questions.

(Interruptions).

The Senator has indicated that he wants to answer it.

I call the Leader.

I was interrupted.

Have you a question for the Leader?

Yes, on the topic of job creation. In Kerry, funding for the south Kerry development partnership was reduced by nearly €2 million and 172 jobs that could be created will now not be created because the funding has been cut.

The Senator should raise that on the Adjournment. I call the Leader.

Senator Darragh O'Brien raised the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. He also raised it on Tuesday and Senator MacSharry raised it in his absence yesterday. Senator Hayden also raised it. I have asked the Minister for Finance to come to the House but I have not yet received a positive response on the issue. The Minister for Finance and the Minister of State at the Department of Finance have come to the House on numerous occasions to discuss banking issues, the insolvency Bill and many others. I will renew my representations to have the Minister come to the House to speak specifically on the code of conduct. I cannot assure the House that I will get him to come to the House today but I will renew my representations in that regard.

Senator Hayden and other Senators raised the closure of St. Patrick's Institution. I commend the Minister on that decision. It is long overdue. There has been report after report on St. Patrick's Institution so it is a good day for the country that the Minister has decided the institution should now close. The development of new facilities at Oberstown will commence and in the interim the transfer of all 17 year olds currently serving a sentence in St. Patrick's Institution to a dedicated unit in Wheatfield Prison will go ahead. The 18 to 20 year old population in the institution will also be transferred to Wheatfield. It is a positive development that action has been taken after the numerous reports calling for the closure of that institution.

I note Senator Barrett's comments about the Anglo Irish Bank tapes. I agree with his comments on the Food Provenance Bill. I understand that Senator Quinn and the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Hayes, had discussions prior to the Bill being introduced. It is positive that sponsors of a Bill can discuss matters with a Minister prior to the Bill coming before the House.

Senator Kelly raised the changes that are alleged to have taken place in medical card eligibility. Perhaps the Senator would table an Adjournment motion on the matter so he can get specific facts on it.

Senator Leyden, Senator Cullinane and others referred to the committee on European affairs and the report of the rapporteur, Senator Reilly, on youth unemployment. I join them in commending our colleague, Senator Reilly, on this report. It knits in quite well with the negotiations the Taoiseach had in Berlin yesterday on the youth guarantee and youth unemployment. It is an issue that affects not just our country but all of Europe. A sum of €6 billion has been set aside by the European Union to address it. Some would say a great deal more is required but €6 billion is a large sum. Hopefully it will trickle down and we will see an improvement in our youth unemployment rate in the coming months.

I agree with Senator Paul Coghlan's comments, which he also made yesterday, that we cannot allow banks to ride roughshod over their mortgage holders and customers. As I said previously, I will try to get the Minister for Finance to come to the House to discuss that and the code of conduct on mortgage arrears published by the Central Bank.

I note Senator Norris's strong comments on the Seanad abolition Bill. All Members will have their say. I believe another 16 Senators will speak on it today and there will be another three and a half hours of debate. We allocated almost eight hours for debate on it.

The vote is crucial.

In response to Senator Mullen, we are not prioritising the Seanad Bill over the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill. I have allocated over eight hours for the Second Stage debate on the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill. That should be more than ample time for Members to make their contributions. It is more time than we have afforded to all other Bills.

When Grattan's Parliament was abolished there were 21 hours of continuous debate.

The Leader without interruption.

It was the last parliament to be abolished.

The Leader and the Cathaoirleach were shocked when they heard what Enda said in opposition.

The Senator has spoken already. The Leader without interruption.

When I am dealing with the Order of Business next week I will put forward the time that will be allocated.

I am sure we will have ample time for Members to vent their feelings next week.

I do not wish to comment on Senator Jimmy Harte's contribution. Obviously, there is a strong difference of opinion between Senators Brian Ó Domhnaill and Jimmy Harte on the closure of schools.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe commented on the Food Provenance Bill and a public consultation report on the lifestyle changes needed to prevent cancer and obesity. The Minister for Health will come before the House in the first week after the summer recess to address the report.

Senator Paschal Mooney spoke about the decline of the bee population in the country and called for a review similar to that which took place in the United Kingdom. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Hayes.

Senators John Whelan, Michael Mullins and Catherine Noone spoke about the revival and regeneration of town centres. I will request the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come to the House for a debate on all matters relating to that issue.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames referred to the comments of the Ombudsman for Children on the rehabilitation of young people in prisons. I am sure that the Minister for Justice and Equality or the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs will be willing to come to the House to address the issue.

Senator Mary M. White referred to the pre-budget submission of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. I am sure we will have many pre-budget submissions from different organisations. I note, in particular, the submission of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul which does tremendous work the length and breadth of the country.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan referred to expenditure on election campaigns and referendums and the need for accountability and transparency. Any right-thinking person would agree with him, but there is a need for all organisations to be transparent and accountable in their expenditure in this regard. I will check the position with the Minister.

Senator Michael Comiskey referred to Australia and suggested it might review its working visa programme. He asked for assurances and a campaign in that regard. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill called for a debate on the regulation of the wind energy sector. I will contact the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, who has discussed the matter in the House and I am sure he will be quite willing to do so again.

Senators John Crown and Mark Daly referred to the significant delay in dealing with the Bill to ban cigarette smoking in cars. I will get an update for Senator John Crown and revert to him on the matter.

Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a one hour debate on how the Central Bank's new code of conduct will protect mortgage holders be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 28.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Crown, John.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
  • Zappone, Katherine.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Keeffe, Susan.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • Whelan, John.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 29; Níl, 15.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Keeffe, Susan.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • Whelan, John.

Níl

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Crown, John.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
  • Zappone, Katherine.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson.
Question declared carried.
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