Seanad Éireann debate -
Monday, 15 Jul 2013

Vol. 225 No. 1

Order of Business (Resumed)

Senator Ivana Bacik

I express regret at the serious outbreak of rioting in Northern Ireland over the weekend in the context of the decision by the Parades Commission. It is most unfortunate that the parties involved could not see fit to abide by the Parades Commission ruling. It is rather sad to see 12 July erupting again in violence and I imagine everyone would join me in extending sympathy to all those injured in the riots which, I hope, we will see dissipate. The Orange Order has questions to answer about the conduct of its members over the weekend.

I welcome the reports in the newspapers over the weekend speculating that there might be a day next year when several issues that have been put to the Constitutional Convention could be put to a referendum of the people, in particular, the issue of marriage equality, but also issues around the voting age and the age of eligibility for the presidency. I renew my call on the Leader to have Tom Arnold, chairperson of the Constitutional Convention, to the House in the autumn in order that we can tease out the issues that could be put by referendum to the people and to discuss further the idea of a constitution day. I believe it is a good idea and it would provide a positive culmination of the work of the Constitutional Convention during the past 12 months to see a package of referendum measures going to the people as a result of the work of the convention. That would be very welcome.

I welcome the publication late last week of chapter 20 of the Murphy report into child sexual abuse in the Dublin diocese. I am glad Commissioner Callinan has expressed his regret over the shameful conduct of the Garda in regard to the Dublin priest, Patrick McCabe, the chapter on whom has now been published, and which has revealed various very disturbing aspects of the relationship between senior clergy and a serial abuser within the Dublin diocese.

On the issue of time limits for speakers, the Leader will respond and there may well be an amendment, but ten minutes per speaker on an important Bill, the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill, is ample time. We discussed it at the leaders' meeting last week. It is the same time everyone in the House had on Second Stage on the Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution Bill. I have always been impressed by Senator Quinn, whose brevity and concise manner of expression is a good example for all of us. We should be able to say what we need to say on any Bill on Second Stage in ten minutes. We also have Committee and Report Stages. The Leader is giving plenty of time and it is important that everyone has a chance to speak on Second Stage.

Senator Terry Leyden

I will follow the same example.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I am sure the Senator will.

Senator Sean D. Barrett

I wish to express some concern about a newspaper headline yesterday, namely, "Noonan wants €750 million capital fund to boost employment". The thinking in the article seemed to be that each €1 million spent creates eight to 12 new jobs and, therefore €750 million would create 6,000 to 9,000 jobs. It does until a project is over. One is then left with debt and no asset necessarily arises because we do not do a cost benefit analysis. I apologise to the Leader for referring to that yet again.

We need projects. One can spend money building a motorway with a capacity of 55,000 vehicles a day but if it is used, as some are, by one fifth of that figure, it is not a project which generates any return. We are weak at capital investment project appraisals. We should have learned to do them during the recession. I ask that the Minister, Deputy Howlin, who is in charge of public expenditure and reform, address the House on how we can ensure that money is spent efficiently and effectively and will boost the economy. Our track record is the opposite.

We have a tradition of spending public capital to the tune of about twice as much as any other OECD country and it is part of the reason we are in trouble. Arising from that, I note a proposal to spend €7 million replacing bus stops. That is definitely an investment which would yield no return. The object should be to spend as little time at bus stops as possible. The €7 million concerned should be spent on something more useful.

Senator Tony Mulcahy

Today a Government Minister misled the people, in making a statement that up to €20 million a year, and up to €100 million over five years, would be saved by the abolition of the Seanad. Before 7 p.m. on Wednesday I want a report on how €20 million a year will be saved to be laid before the House. To state that the money saved could be spent on people with disabilities, among others, is an absolute insult to the intelligence of the people of this country.

Figures cannot be fired around flippantly. I was absolutely livid when I heard such flippant remarks today. A figure of €400,000 per constituency was referred to, as if we had any intention of spending money in such a manner. We cannot do it because the abolition of the House will not save that much money. All that will be saved are the salaries of Senators. We said this last week. I want the statement to be qualified before 7 p.m. on Wednesday. It is only right that, before the Bill is put before the electorate, the actual breakdown of where the savings will be made is put on the record of the House. Today's statement is an absolute lie.

Senator David Norris

Well said. The Senator is bang on.

Senator Terry Leyden

I concur with Senator Mulcahy. What he said is absolutely accurate and fair. I ask the Clerk of the Seanad to find out from the commission the exact cost of the House on a yearly basis. It would be fair and equitable that we know exactly what the House costs and the savings which could occur.

On that basis, I want to confirm with the Leader that, on Wednesday night at 7 p.m., we are debating the Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution (Abolition of Seanad Éireann) Bill 2013. On that basis, I regard it as arrogance that the Taoiseach announces today that he has appointed Deputy Richard Bruton, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, as director of elections for the referendum campaign and Deputy Regina Doherty, who is not a wet day in this House-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Senator Terry Leyden

This House is supposed to have free speech.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Terry Leyden

I ask the Leader to confirm that the Bill is still before the House. Has the Bill been passed? Has it been signed by the President? Will the President refer it to the Supreme Court? I want it confirmed by the Leader that this is the case. How can the Taoiseach announce an election campaign that has not yet commenced and appoint a Minister, who should be bloody well busy enough trying to create jobs-----

Senator David Norris

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a matter for the Taoiseach.

Senator Terry Leyden

They are spending €150,000 or €200,000 on this wasteful campaign. I hope Deputy Regina Doherty gets her taste of Deputy McEntee in the next election. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is overtime.

Senator Terry Leyden

The Cathaoirleach should let me finish, I will not take long. The other evening, a Minister of State was forced to resign. It never happened in the history of the State. She made derogatory comments-----

An Cathaoirleach

That has nothing to do with this House.

Senator Terry Leyden

The Cathaoirleach should let me finish the point. I will not be misrepresented, as I was last week in this House. Deputy Creighton made very derogatory comments about Mr. Haughey. Mr. Haughey never fired a Minister of State on the telephone.

Senator David Norris

There were plenty of times he should have.

Senator Martin Conway

He should have fired himself.

Senator Mary M. White

We badly need his brains, Senator Conway.

Senator Marie Moloney

I refer to the terrible accident that took place in Killarney town on Saturday morning. It claimed the life of a very popular businessman, Mr. James Gleeson, and I extend sincere sympathy to his wife, Grace, his son Eoin, his brother Donagh and his sister Maureen. He will be sadly missed by all. I congratulate the emergency services personnel who sprung into action and were there all day long in soaring temperatures. They include the Garda Síochána, the firemen, the paramedics and the council workers who worked swiftly to try to go into the rubble and locate the body of the businessman. It was a great effort by all and it is a sad day for Killarney town, when all businesses were closed for the day. It was like a bomb site after the explosion. I record our thanks and gratitude to the emergency services who worked all day long.

Senator David Norris

I am astonished that Senator Bacik, my old and good friend, continues to refer to the convention and the Government's response to it in glowing terms. I managed to engineer a little bit of democracy into it. Some 94% of the people voted for some participation by the people in the nomination of the presidency but they are totally ignoring the will of the people. Some 52% wanted a change in the voting age.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator looking for a debate?

Senator David Norris

Yes, I am looking for some kind of a debate. They also voted against reducing the presidential term even though I was in favour of it. They are very à la carte.

I come from a Southern Unionist background-----

Senator Paul Coghlan

I thought the Senator's mother was a FitzPatrick from County Laois.

Senator David Norris

-----and I belong to the Anglican Communion, which is the reformed Catholic Church. I am regarded as a Protestant and a southern Unionist and as someone viewed from the North as a Protestant, I am bitterly ashamed of the behaviour of people who call themselves Unionists and Protestants. They are a disgrace to any decent representation of those values. I call on the Church of Ireland, to which I belong, to disassociate itself completely from the Orange Order. It has shrivelled to one third of its original support and now is the time to cut links. I was embarrassed and disgusted at the time of Drumcree and I am embarrassed by the stupid behaviour of the Protestant people in the North of Ireland. They are an appalling embarrassment. When they were prisoners, they were like Neanderthals, reading comics and doing press-ups whereas the Shinners, for who I would not give a toss, at least had the intelligence to do university degrees.

The Reverend Ian Paisley did his best to stir up the hatred which led to all of this violence. When he was a distinguished visitor to this House, I was the only Senator who sat down in his presence. If he is a reverend, he should seek to undo the harm he did in recent days by finally denouncing the violence which has occurred. I do not know the religion of the Reverend Mervyn Gibson who spoke in support of the Orange Order earlier today, but I suggest no decent Christian, regardless of whether he or she is a minister, a pastor or an ordinary parishioner, should be associated with that order.

Senator Martin Conway

Like Senator Tony Mulcahy, I was very annoyed by some of the comments made this morning at what appeared to be the launch of the campaign to abolish the Seanad. I inform those running the campaign that if they continue to use the position of people with disabilities in the campaign to abolish the House, some of us might become actively involved in the matter. We might highlight the fact that this House has facilitated greater equality for people with disabilities and passed more motions aimed at trying to promote equality than the Lower House.

Senator David Norris

Well said.

Senator Martin Conway

Ministers have been brought before the Seanad and there have been questions on issues relating, for example, to the UN Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities which, despite being in office for two and a half years, the Government has not ratified. Using people with disabilities in this way belittles them. I sincerely hope what was said this morning does not reflect what will become the tenor of the referendum campaign. If it does, that will be very regrettable.

Unfortunately, many tragedies have taken place during the past week as a result of the fine weather. It is critically important that compulsory water safety classes take place in primary and secondary schools in order to at least raise awareness among young people of the dangers of being in or on the water. We do not enjoy too many spells of fine weather such as the one we have experienced in the past couple of weeks. We must be prepared for future spells of such weather. In that context, we should encourage schools on a voluntary basis initially to offer more water safety training and encourage water safety awareness among pupils. I hope that in the coming years it might be possible to establish a statutory water safety programme with primary and secondary schools. We must educate young people for life rather than just to obtain a certain amount of points in their State examinations. In this way we will ensure lives will be saved.

Senator David Cullinane

On the Order of Business last Thursday I called for a debate on health care. When responding, the Leader in a very flippant way stated the Minister would be in the House all this week. He is correct in that regard, but the Minister will be present to discuss a very important and sensitive Bill in respect of which it would inappropriate for Senators to raise any issue relating to the health service. The Leader was quite aware of that for which I was calling, namely, a debate on the health service and the cutbacks being made in it. In the interim, the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, has confirmed that the Government is to introduce means testing and charges for home-care packages and other community-based services. The latter will have an impact on older people and those with disabilities. The Government is now saying it will provide more money for people with disabilities if the Seanad is abolished. However, it has actually cut back on the funding and services for these individuals. Time and again it has targeted older people and those with disabilities. Not only is it failing to reform the health service, it is actually dismantling it.

The Government has referred a great deal to wanting to move from institutional care to community care. However, all we have seen are cuts to home help hours and home-care packages. This makes it more difficult for people to be cared for at home. The Government's stated policy in this area does not match what it is doing. I must, therefore, again request a debate on this matter. When it published its so-called reform policy, Future Health: A Strategic Framework for Reform of the Health Service 2012-2015, last year, Sinn Féin pointed out that it would lead to cutbacks in home-care services. That is exactly what is going to happen, which is shameful. I reiterate my call for a debate on the health service, specifically in the context of community health care.

Senator John Whelan

I support Senator Tony Mulcahy in what he said about the outrageous attempt made by a Cabinet Minister to undermine the Seanad.

I would like to put the Government on notice that if it intends to run its full term it should start to respect this Seanad and Senators because it is an absurdity to repeat an untruth, namely, that the Seanad costs €20 million per annum to run and that €100 million can be saved in a full term when it has been put on the record in the annual accounts of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission that the direct costs of running the Seanad are €8.8 million. It is not a small sum but none the less it is nowhere near the moneys the Government is bandying around. It is outrageous to suggest that this money would be diverted to people with disabilities. If that is the lame campaign the Government will engage in to abolish the Seanad, it should be ashamed of itself if it does not have a stronger argument than that to put forward. It is presumptuous in the extreme to appoint a director of elections and move to prepare for a referendum when the legislation has not completed its passage through the Seanad, much less been signed by the President.

If the Minister, Deputy Bruton, wants something with which to occupy himself between now and the autumn I have a suggestion on where he can focus his attention. The Midlands, Leinster and Dublin are on the verge of a drought. They are about to run out of water. Recently, we had the announcements of extensions to Intel, Pfizer and the Kerry Group, all of which rely on a safe, secure, sustainable supply of quality water. That resource will not continue to be available into the future for commerce, industry, agriculture and householders unless this Government expedites the construction of the Garryhinch reservoir and water project without any further delay.

I call on the Leader to arrange with the Minister of State with responsibility for NewERA, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, who is a constructive Minister, to come into this House to explain to us the priority being given to this project with Irish Water to construct this reservoir because the Government seems preoccupied.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator could raise that matter on the Adjournment.

Senator John Whelan

I agree but I would make a final point. The Government is preoccupied with water charges and water meters for water that it does not have. It must build the Garryhinch reservoir and Government Ministers should stop spreading untruths about the Seanad.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien

While we are on the subject of water services, I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on this subject because I would add to that subject the issue of the addition of fluoride to our water supply, which I find extraordinary. This is the only country in Europe, together with America and Australia, that has fluoride in its water supply. Northern Ireland does not have fluoride in its water supply and has fewer cases of cancer and Down's syndrome of certain types, which has been scientifically proven. I am coming at the issue raised by Senator Whelan from a different angle. Why would we charge for water with fluoride because I for one do not want to drink water with fluoride?

I went off on an aside but I want to start off on a positive note on the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Shatter, last week that he has secured Cabinet approval to progress the creation of the charities regulator.

Senator Terry Leyden

That is a very good point.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien

This is happening at long last. The Government is spending €4 billion plus in the charities sector. We have not even had a centralised register of all charities. We will have that now and a proper regulator and we will come up to international best practice in this sector. I welcome that and look forward to the Minister progressing that.

I caught the end of Senator Cullinane's contribution. When is the Government going to stop hitting out at the most vulnerable? I know we want the money to follow the patient but are we going to start means testing patients in receipt of mental health or disability care from the HSE? If people have a disability or mental health issue, are they going to have to be means tested to access services and to access a medical card? Will individuals have to part-fund their own care? Can we believe that we are going to consider living in a country that is going to do this, to attack the most vulnerable? I would like the Leader to arrange for a debate on this matter at the earliest opportunity which will be in September but at the earliest opportunity in September. He should get us back a week earlier because the budget is a-coming. I would like to discuss this matter further. Money following the patient is clearly the way forward but it is not going to be used as a cover up for cuts to the most vulnerable.

Senator Terry Brennan

I support my colleagues who like me have been very agitated over this press release on which there was an embargo until 11 a.m. today.

It is an awful pity that it did not come out last week before we had begun the-----

Senator Mary Moran

Perhaps that is why it did not come out.

Senator Terry Brennan

We will probably be told that tomorrow night. There are lies and total lies in the statement from the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton. I ask the Leader for an urgent debate with the Minister before Report Stage commences tomorrow night at 7 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Senator to withdraw the word "lie".

Senator Terry Brennan

I will change it to "allegation". When I read a figure that I know in my heart and soul cannot be substantiated by not alone the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, but the Cabinet, and what attempts he has made in the past to reform the Seanad-----

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Terry Brennan

Would it be possible to ask the Minister concerned, Deputy Richard Bruton, to come before the Seanad prior to the commencement of Report Stage, which I understand will begin tomorrow night at 7 p.m.? He could come some time today or tomorrow. I want the figures quantified. I want to ask the Minister what reforms he initiated while in government in the past.

Senator David Norris

The Senator should propose it.

Senator Terry Brennan

I propose it.

Senator David Norris

I am sure Senator Wilson will second it.

Senator Terry Brennan

I propose to the Leader that the Minister involved with Seanad abolition is brought to the House before Report Stage commences tomorrow evening.

Senator Terry Leyden

He should be hung, drawn and quartered.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

I second the proposal from my colleague, Senator Brennan. It is ironic that the two-----

An Cathaoirleach

He did not propose an amendment to the Order of Business.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

I am aware of that.

Senator David Norris

He did.

An Cathaoirleach

He made a proposal to the Leader.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

I second his proposal.

Senator David Norris

Will you ask him to clarify the position, a Chathaoirligh?

An Cathaoirleach

He asked a question of the Leader in the form of a proposal.

Senator David Norris

Did he get the proposal? Could you ask him to clarify?

An Cathaoirleach

He has not proposed an amendment to the Order of Business.

Senator David Norris

Will you ask him to clarify, a Chathaoirligh?

Senator Terry Brennan

I have not proposed an amendment to the Order of Business.

Senator David Norris

The Senator has not. I am disappointed.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Darragh O'Brien. I wholeheartedly agree with what colleagues on the other side have said about the press release issued by the Minister, Deputy Bruton. It is ironic that the two Ministers that have been asked to steer the legislation through this House are the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes – two of the people who tried to get rid of the Taoiseach shortly before the previous general election. This is payback time on the part of the Taoiseach. It is a cynical move on his part.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Yes, I have. I welcome the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Shatter, that Garda recruitment will commence next year. I know that he has not outlined how many new recruits will be taken into Templemore but I welcome the fact that, in principle, it will happen next year. It is a very welcome development.

Would the Leader invite the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, to the House to comment on the Leader programmes that are in operation around the country? It is a fact that they have had their budget slashed. While the funding was originally meant to be allocated between 2007 and 2013 it did not come on-stream until February 2009. The deadline for all of the money to be spent is 31 December. A circular has been received from the Department telling them not to approve any more projects. That is outrageous. The very least one should expect is that the programmes will be able to spend the money that was allocated to them two years later than it originally should have been. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House in order that we could have a debate in that regard.

Senator Jimmy Harte

I join other Members in praising Senator Mulcahy for raising the issue today. I do not like to use the word “blackmail” in the context of the Minister in question but one cannot blackmail the public to say that if they do not get one thing, they will not get the other.

In other words, unless they get rid of the Seanad, disability payments and funds for disabled people will be reduced. While no Member has a problem with a reasoned debate on the future of the Seanad and every Member will accept whatever the public decide, one cannot use people with disabilities as a bargaining position to make the public feel guilty. It is unacceptable to suggest that were people to decide to retain the Seanad, they should feel guilty about so doing because it will mean that people with disabilities suffer. This is not the way to debate the future of the Seanad.

At one point, the argument was put forward that the country was too small to have two Houses but now one is being told it is a financial issue. Members of the public are being told that unless they vote for the abolition of the Seanad, people will suffer in their pockets and the figure being quoted is highly inaccurate as a more accurate figure is €8 million or less. I have made this point previously but were the Government so concerned in this regard, Seán Quinn was bailed out by the taxpayer and it would take about 400 years of the Seanad continuing at its present rate of expenditure to even match the amount involved. Consequently, the public will be short-changed if the Government and those in charge of conducting the referendum use such language. It suggests to me the Government has received private opinion poll data showing the Seanad will be saved. However, I ask the Minister and all other Ministers not to use people with disabilities in this way or to make the public feel guilty for voting for something that has nothing to do with people with disabilities.

Senator Feargal Quinn

Senator Rónán Mullen made quite a good point earlier. I am unsure whether he proposed an amendment to the Order of Business.

An Cathaoirleach

He has not yet spoken on the Order of Business.

Senator Feargal Quinn

While I am expecting him to come into the Chamber, I propose that Members do not accept a ten-minute limit should take place on the debate on the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill. I imagine Senator Mullen has the same intention and will second that motion.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator making a proposal?

Senator Feargal Quinn

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that Members not limit themselves to ten minutes each with regard to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator suggesting the time should be unlimited or does he have an alternative time in mind?

Senator Feargal Quinn

I suggest a limit of 20 minutes.

An Cathaoirleach

Very well.

Senator Feargal Quinn

I wish to make one further point because the issue has cropped up. What has happened and what happens in Northern Ireland over the period around 12 July is horrific but it is nothing like what happened during the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. When one looks back and sees the constraints the Nationalist people have placed on themselves, the trouble is all coming from one side alone. Those of us who unfortunately experienced deaths in our families from Northern Ireland in those years now recognise what a changed place it is. I encourage as many Members as possible, during the next few weeks, to make sure they use Ireland as a whole, that is, to visit on holidays and to get to know people up North. I always have expressed doubt that those furthest from the Border seem to become more pro-partitionist and do not regard the North as part of our island. Members should make sure they use this summer as an opportunity to enhance the experience they have of an all-island Ireland and to get to know our friends and colleagues on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland. While the 12 July weekend did not sound or look very good, compared with what happened in the past it has been a huge success.

Senator Paul Coghlan

As Members are aware, a most unfortunate and sad freak accident occurred in Killarney over the weekend. I refer of course to the sad passing of that most genial businessman, James Gleeson, in the heart of Killarney town. I also wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy towards his wife, Grace, son Eoin, brother Donagh and sister Maureen. He was a much loved, well liked and well-known man who was much respected and it is a very sad day for Killarney and its people.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I second the amendment to the Order of Business kindly proposed by Senator Quinn that Members would have 20 minutes each on Second Stage.

Senator John Kelly

I support my Senator colleagues regarding the mistruth being promulgated by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, on possible savings following the abolition of the Seanad. The accounts for this House show that it costs €8.8 million. When one accounts for tax, PRSI and the universal social charge, one arrives at a figure in the region of €4.4 million. It is outrageous that the Minister is now using people with disabilities as bait and saying the money will be diverted towards them when the reality is that the money will be diverted towards new committees, providing extra resources for Deputies and some kind of overarching advisory body that the Taoiseach is to put in place. If the people want evidence of the fact that this is something along the lines of a pre-election promise that will not be honoured, they should note that the pre-budget promise I received that the €7 million taken from the home help service in 2012 would be restored in 2013 was not honoured. Not one cent of it has been restored.

I was at a mass yesterday in Castlecoote marking the 28th anniversary of Fr. Niall Molloy's murder. It was attended by a huge crowd, including family, friends and supporters of Fr. Molloy. Many of them said to me that they wanted to see justice done in this case. Three to four months ago I tabled an Adjournment matter on this issue. The Minister stated the cold case investigation was taking place and that he could not comment any further until it was concluded. It concluded over two months ago and the report has been on his desk for the past two months. The people of Castlecoote, County Roscommon want to see justice done; they want to see a conclusion. If somebody broke the law, they would plead for mercy. The man in question did not break the law but was murdered. We are pleading for justice for him.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

I wish to comment on the views expressed on the proposed abolition of the Seanad. The Leader might keep in mind the possibility of allowing further debate on this issue because it asks a very fundamental question pertaining to democracy. Why is misleading information being given by a senior Minister? We are really talking about the protection of democracy at this time. There should be some mechanism, whereby we would not have to get through Report Stage and say that was the end of the matter. There is an opportunity in this House to delay the process and we should use it. On many occasions we have not done so because we did not want to be seen to be obstructive or destructive just for the sake of it. This is a much more fundamental issue. When we enter the silly season of the summer, the referendum will be right on top of us. The reason I am making any contribution and making my request to the Leader is that, over the weekend in the part of the country I was visiting, I was approached by several people who wanted to discuss the proposed referendum. They were asking questions that had not been debated or put before them. The worst thing that could happen is that there would be a smokescreen. It is an insult to the people who will be voting in the referendum. We can postpone this legislation for 90 days. Let people reflect on it and let the debate take place. Let us confront those responsible for providing misleading and inaccurate information. We should do so because we are not answerable to the Minister but to the people.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the a Senator have question on the Order of Business?

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

This is an opportunity for us to do what is right as Senators at this time.

Senator Michael Mullins

I support Senator John Kelly's call for the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to publish the recently compiled report on the investigation into the death of Fr. Niall Molloy. Many aspects of the case are seriously troubling. It is wrong that the Molloy family should have to wait 25 years to have certain aspects of the case investigated properly.

It reflects badly on our justice system if we leave serious question marks hanging over this case.

I support some of the comments by Senators concerning the riots in Northern Ireland over the weekend. It is particularly worrying that our fragile peace process could be damaged in any way by these events. In the coming months, there will be an opportunity for the Parades Commission to get everybody around a table to resolve this matter once and for all. I ask the Leader to renew the invitation to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland to attend the Seanad to speak about the ongoing peace process and the progress that is being made, as well as the roadblocks that are still there to bringing about a lasting peace. Members of the House would have some interesting things to say and could be helpful in resolving some of the ongoing tensions that remain in Northern Ireland. The Orange Order has not covered itself in glory and all right-minded people would deplore its actions over the past week.

Senator Mary M. White

I am shocked to hear about the press release from the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton. Did he read the press release before it was issued? It is like propaganda from Hitler.

Senator Terry Leyden

Goebbels.

Senator Mary M. White

Sixty people have put their heart and soul into participating over the last two and a half years in this Chamber. How dare the Minister, and the deputy director of elections, Deputy Regina Doherty, criticise us as ineffective? How dare they do that to us?

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Mary M. White

I have a question for the Leader. I demand that the Minister, Deputy Bruton, come in here and tell the truth - that this Seanad does not cost €20 million a year. If Members of the Opposition had any guts we would all work together to contradict this propaganda.

Senator John Gilroy

The Senator is the Opposition.

Senator Mary M. White

According to the Secretary General of the Oireachtas commission, the figure is less than €10 million. I do not have the precise figure.

Senator Terry Brennan

I have it.

Senator Mary M. White

The Minister, Deputy Bruton, has a huge responsibility not to tell lies to the Irish people about the costs. In the press release, Deputy Doherty stated:

At a time when families are making considerable sacrifices, I believe it is only right that the political system does the same. The Seanad is shockingly undemocratic; in fact, just 1% of the population voted to elect the current Seanad, and it doesn’t do anything that isn’t already done in the Dáil.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Mary M. White

I have a question for the Leader. These people are ignorant about how we get elected to Seanad Éireann.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Senator to withdraw that remark.

Senator Mary M. White

What are you asking me to withdraw?

An Cathaoirleach

The remark that people are ignorant.

Senator Mary M. White

What did I say? I want to know exactly what the Cathaoirleach is asking me to withdraw. They are ignorant concerning their information on this Seanad. It does not cost €20 million a year. That young Deputy has only been there for two years. How dare she call us ineffective?

Senator Mary Moran

I strongly concur with the sentiments expressed by Senator Mulcahy. I had not seen the press release before I came in. However, it is wrong to bandy about populist remarks like this, saying they will give the money to aid disability. We have all seen how the disability sector has suffered over the years - not just over the last two years, but also going back to 2008. We have seen disability cuts. It is absolutely abominable that anybody would come out with such comments about giving the money to those with disabilities, when we all know that is not going to happen.

Senator Rónán Mullen

The Senator should vote her outrage.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Mary Moran

Yes, I do. The press release came out with populist statements such as "At a time when families are making considerable sacrifices, I believe it is only right that the political system does the same". If it is only right, I ask Deputies to take a reduction in their salaries to reflect that of Senators, and perhaps give up the many allowances they have.

Going back to the issue of disability, it is appalling that people would make such statements.

I call on the Leader to look at an aspect of the assisted decision-making (capacity) Bill which was promised two years ago. Where is it? I understand from the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, that it is at an advanced stage. We need an answer. Many people have come to me in the last six months who do not have accommodation and who are worried about where their loved ones with disabilities will be. Institutions and places are being closed to move people to the community but there are not enough staff out there to provide a service for them. There are plenty of ways in which we can do right by people with disabilities. I abhor that anyone would use the most vulnerable people in society as a basis to entice people to vote to abolish the Seanad.

Senator David Norris

On a point of order, I have just seen this malignant and mendacious piece of tripe.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has spoken.

Senator David Norris

I want to raise a point of order.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is out of order. He should resume his seat.

Senator David Norris

Seanad Éireann should immediately issue a press statement on a unanimous basis. This is a tissue of lies. I object in the strongest possible way to the idea that someone who has spent years in the House should have to listen to the Regina monologue from someone who has not been a wet weekend in the Oireachtas and is talking through her fanny.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is completely out of order and taking up the time of other Members who have indicated that they want to speak. He has spoken already.

Senator David Norris

Yes, but we should have a revolution in this bloody place. The Members should take over.

Senator Mary M. White

The tennis court, like the French Revolution, out on the lawn.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

In view of concern across the House about the statement this morning of the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, et al., will the Leader ask the Minister to correct the record regarding the cost of the Seanad? It is in the records of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Senator David Norris

And all his other lies.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I have the floor. It is misleading and unfair. In the interests of fairness and to correct the record, I ask the Leader to do this. I have placed on the Order Paper today a reasoned amendment to the abortion Bill - the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill.

An Cathaoirleach

We have not reached No. 1 yet.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I want to explain something. I ask Senators to take the time to read it. I am grateful to Senators Feargal Quinn and Mary Ann O'Brien for seconding it.

An Cathaoirleach

That amendment is to item No. 1. We have not got to it yet.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

With respect, my issue is that while I would like to be able to move the amendment, I am the eighth speaker for Fine Gael.

An Cathaoirleach

That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am making a request.

An Cathaoirleach

When we get to No. 1 the Senator can move it, or talk to her Whip to get in ahead.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I may be the 24th speaker.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a matter for me or the Order of Business. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

My question is that I would like to move the amendment earlier in the debate for the sake of the thinking process.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a matter for when and if we get to the item. The House may not agree to get to the item.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The effect of supporting the reasoned amendment will be to give the country and the House more time for reflection.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It would be nice if the Cathaoirleach allowed me to finish a sentence.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is talking about No. 1 which we have not yet reached.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am trying to frame a sentence.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

My question for the Leader is whether it would be possible for me to move the amendment earlier in the debate to put my thinking on the issue onto the record earlier.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a matter for the Fine Gael group of Senators.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is my point. I have made my request. I would appreciate it.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

On a point of order, it might assist to point out that it is not a Fine Gael motion. It is seconded by Senators Quinn and Mary Ann O'Brien. Could it be moved when No. 1 is taken? Could the amendment be moved by way of an amendment to the Order of Business?

An Cathaoirleach

We will deal with it when we get to it.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Will that be today?

An Cathaoirleach

It will be whenever the Order of Business is agreed to.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Can it be moved when No. 1 is moved? I am just looking for clarification.

An Cathaoirleach

It is up to the Senator to move the amendment when she is called to speak.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Will that be as speaker No. 24?

An Cathaoirleach

It is a matter for the Senator's own party to arrange to let her in.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is ridiculous and unfair, and reflects a lack of balance.

An Cathaoirleach

That may be, but it is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

You are the Cathaoirleach. I am looking for you to be fair and impartial.

An Cathaoirleach

It has nothing to do with that.

Senator Colm Burke

On a different issue from the one that has been raised this afternoon, I raise the matter of how the banking sector, in particular KBC Bank, is behaving. It has come to my attention that where legal representatives have entered into correspondence in a legal capacity on behalf of their clients who have fallen into arrears, the banks will not enter into discussions, even though there is a clear record of a request that the legal representative be involved. Will the Leader make the position known to the Minister for Finance that the banks are obliged to co-operate not only with the customers but their legal representatives? It is a disgrace that a legal representative, who has sent a written authority from their client authorising them to discuss the arrears with the bank in March, still cannot meet with the bank three months later. It is disgraceful that a bank is behaving in that manner. Will the Leader bring this to the attention of the Minister for Finance? I will certainly be writing to the Minister.

Senator Catherine Noone

I join colleagues on their comments on today’s press release on the abolition of the Seanad from the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton. The House has well discussed the cheap shot that it is to cut off one third of the Oireachtas and call it political reform. My views on this are well documented.

I also join other speakers in agreeing this press release is a populist move in that it tugs at people’s heart strings by raising funding for disability and such matters alongside the Seanad’s abolition. Of course, money is important in the economy, particularly considering the state it is in now.

However, from another angle, we have to look at this release as being somewhat clever-----

Senator Darragh O'Brien

It is not clever. It is a lie.

Senator Catherine Noone

-----in that it puts across a simple message to the people that if they abolish the Seanad they will save money but if they do not, then disabled people will not get extra funding.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I would love to know who asked for that.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Catherine Noone have a question for the Leader?

Senator Catherine Noone

Yes, I will come to my question for the Leader. We need to come up with a simple message on the other side of the camp.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

The Senator supports the abolition of the Seanad. She voted for it.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Catherine Noone have a question for the Leader?

Senator Catherine Noone

The Minister for Finance has been requested to attend the House before the budget. The VAT system could be usefully debated in the House during these budget discussions. There are various innovative ways the VAT system can be used to create movement in a certain sector of the economy, like we saw with the 9% rate on tourism products and services. It can also be used for promoting healthy foods-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is way over time.

Senator Catherine Noone

I am way over time because I was interrupted.

An Cathaoirleach

I call the Leader. We are way over time.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This is a total disregard for women.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Senator withdraw that comment?

Senator Mary M. White

The men of this country should stay at home.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Senator Healy Eames withdraw that comment?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This is a total disregard for women.

Senator Mary M. White

I second that.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

To be fair, I felt I got a raw deal here today. However, I will withdraw the comment but I would like you to think about what I said, a Chathaoirligh.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a rota system for speakers. If, for instance, Senator Cullinane wished to propose an amendment to the Order of Business, I cannot take him until it comes to his position, No. 13, on the speakers’ list. He will not be brought up the list just because he has an amendment. If Senator Healy Eames wants to move up the list to move her amendment, she should talk to the Leader or Whip of her party. I call on the Leader of the House.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I certainly will.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Darragh O’Brien proposed an amendment to the Order of Business to deal with the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. As I have stated before, I have been on to the Department on numerous occasions to have the Minister attend the House on this matter.

I received a reply from the Minister's private secretary which stated:

The Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan, has asked me to refer to your queries relating to the Minister making a statement in the Seanad on the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. The code of conduct on mortgage arrears is drawn up by the Central Bank and the Central Bank is independent in carrying out its functions. The Minister has been assured by the Central Bank that it conducted extensive consultations in advance of revising the code and has also made its officials available for extensive briefings on the code. The Minister would suggest that if Senators wish to discuss and debate the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, they should invite the Central Bank to discuss the matter before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform which would allow for a detailed, thorough examination of the code with the body responsible for the code.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

That is Pontius Pilate if ever I heard it.

Senator Maurice Cummins

That is the response I received. I can do no more than outline to the House the response I received from the Department of Finance on that matter. I will seek clarification from the Minister in respect of the MABS withdrawing from the pilot scheme on debt management.

Senator Ivana Bacik and several other Senators spoke about the outbreak of violence in Northern Ireland in the past few days. I call on the Orange Order, as I did when it visited here, to enter into meaningful negotiations with the Parades Commission and all involved. I also ask it to urge its supporters, or so-called supporters, to get off the streets of Northern Ireland and act in a dignified manner, as the vast majority of the population does. I ask it to use its influence in that regard immediately.

Senator Sean D. Barrett spoke about the constant speculation in newspapers regarding the figure of €750 million. I assure him that we will see constant speculation in the next number of weeks up to 15 October, which is budget day. The newspapers will speculate about what will be in the budget, irrespective of what we say in this House. Regarding the figure of €7 million to be spent on bus stops, I think over €4 million of that figure is to be spent on bus shelters throughout the country. I do not think the people waiting for buses on wet days - we do not have days like today every day - would appreciate the Senator's comments in that regard.

Senator David Norris

If buses ran on time, they would not have to wait.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Tony Mulcahy and at least ten Members commented on a press release issued by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation today on the Seanad. I have not seen the press release and have not heard any comment. What I will say is that if the Minister is linking the savings with people with disabilities and saying the savings could and should be diverted, it is despicable to link savings or bring people with disabilities into this debate in such a way. It has been spelled out by quite a number of Members during the comprehensive debates we had on Second and Committee Stages. We have spent over 24 hours dealing with the Bill so far. The point was made that, according to the Accounting Officer in the Houses of the Oireachtas, the cost of Senators' salaries and expenses was €8.8 million. If people want to bring in other areas of expenditure, they are quite willing to do so, but it is on the record that the cost is €8.8 million. That is clear for anybody to see. If people wish to bring in other areas of expenditure such as light, heating and staff members like ushers, they are extraneous to the cost of the Seanad as far as I am concerned. There will be opportunities on Report Stage on Wednesday to make that point as it was raised with the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, when he came to the House last week.

We will have a similar occasion to deal with the matter on Report Stage on Wednesday evening.

Senator Terry Leyden is correct in saying the referendum Bill has not yet passed through this House and certainly it is premature to raise the issue of appointing a director of elections. However, that is a matter for the party to appoint whom it sees fit to appoint as director of elections and when it does it.

Senators Marie Moloney and Paul Coghlan advised the House of the horrific death of Mr. James Gleeson in a dreadful accident in Killarney at the weekend. Both paid tribute to the Garda and the emergency services for their work and expressed their condolences to Mr. Gleeson's family as, I am sure, the House would wish to do also.

Senator Martin Conway raised the issue of water safety classes in schools. This is a good point which was made by Senator Feargal Quinn in the House last week.

Senators David Cullinane and Mary Ann O'Brien mentioned newspaper headings suggesting there would be cuts to services for the disabled. This morning on "Morning Ireland" the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, outlined that this was totally incorrect, that a review was taking place and the headline paints the wrong picture of what the Department is doing. There is a need to reassure people who are very vulnerable and under pressure that this is not what the Government intends doing. It was spelled out by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, in her interview on "Morning Ireland" this morning. To come in and make further allegations in that regard is not acceptable.

Senator John Whelan raised the matter of a supply of quality water for the Dublin area, in particular. I will invite the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, to come to the House early in the next term to discuss the matter.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien welcomed the charities regulator. That matter was raised on the Order of Business last week and was welcomed by all.

Senators Terry Brennan and John Whelan have raised the issue of the Bill which seeks to abolish the Seanad.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson welcomed the fact that Garda recruitment would recommence next year. We all welcome this. He also raised the issue of the Leader programme. I will certainly ask the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, to come to the House, but that matter was raised last week and I gave an indication that there was a need for those who operated the Leader programme in many counties to get their act in order, in respect of applications made and the non-allocation of funds, and that such funds had not been relocated to other counties. It is only right that the money be spent nationally.

Senator Feargal Quinn proposed an amendment to the Order of Business which I do not propose to accept. I note his points on Northern Ireland that the current problems are confined to one area. Thankfully, it is nothing like what we have seen in the past and, I hope that will be the case for many years to come.

Senators John Kelly and Michael Mullins raised the issue of the Fr. Niall Molloy case and the need for the Minister to publish the report and the need for closure for the families. I will ascertain the status of the report and if, and when, it is to be published in early course.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú raised the matter of the Seanad abolition Bill. We have had 24 hours of debate on the Bill to date and the points the Senator made can be raised on Wednesday on Report Stage.

Senator Michael Mullins asked about renewing an invitation to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I will have no problem in doing this.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames raised the matter of the order of speakers. That is a matter that was decided by the group meeting and is one for the group rather than anybody else.

Senator Mary Moran asked about the mental capacity Bill. I understand the new Bill was brought to the Cabinet last week and is due to be published in a matter of weeks.

Senator Colm Burke raised the issue of banks being obliged to deal with authorised legal advisers. I will bring that matter to the attention of the Minister for Finance.

Senator Catherine Noone suggested the use of the value added tax system as an innovative way of stimulating the economy. I will raise that matter with the Minister for Finance.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment -----

Senator Tony Mulcahy

On a point of order and clarification, with regard to the Minister's statement today, what he said on the "News at One" was that the savings as such could be spent in areas such as disability services.

An Cathaoirleach

That is out of order.

Senator Tony Mulcahy

The point of order is that I asked this of the Leader. I asked that before 7 p.m. on Wednesday evening the savings outlined by a Cabinet Minister today be put on the record -----

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Senator Tony Mulcahy

It is. We seek clear clarification and a tabular breakdown of where those savings will be made. This matter is going before the people.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Senator Tony Mulcahy

The Leader needs to clarify that matter.

Senator Mary M. White

It is very serious.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a point of information.

Senator Tony Mulcahy

Will the Leader ask the Minister to clarify this matter before 7 p.m. on Wednesday? Will he do that?

Senator Maurice Cummins

I will certainly ask the Minister, but there is no guarantee that I will get the answer the Senator wants. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, spelled out the Government's position on the costs at -----

Senator Mary M. White

They are all taking the soup.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I did not interrupt the Senator and would not interrupt her, although she sometimes does it to me. I will certainly ask the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton to clarify the position.

Senator Mary M. White

I did not say the Leader was taking the soup.

Senator Maurice Cummins

The Senator is interrupting again. She cannot stop interrupting.

Senator David Norris

He will not get it anyway.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a one-hour debate on the proposed new code of conduct on mortgage arrears be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Darragh O'Brien

It is.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 30.

Tá

• Barrett, Sean D.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Cullinane, David.
• Leyden, Terry.
• Mac Conghail, Fiach.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Mullen, Rónán.
• Norris, David.
• Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
• Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• O'Brien, Mary Ann.
• O'Sullivan, Ned.
• Quinn, Feargal.
• Reilly, Kathryn.
• van Turnhout, Jillian.
• White, Mary M.
• Wilson, Diarmuid.
• Zappone, Katherine.

Níl

• Bacik, Ivana.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Brennan, Terry.
• Burke, Colm.
• Clune, Deirdre.
• Coghlan, Eamonn.
• Coghlan, Paul.
• Comiskey, Michael.
• Conway, Martin.
• Cummins, Maurice.
• D'Arcy, Jim.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Gilroy, John.
• Harte, Jimmy.
• Hayden, Aideen.
• Healy Eames, Fidelma.
• Henry, Imelda.
• Higgins, Lorraine.
• Keane, Cáit.
• Kelly, John.
• Moloney, Marie.
• Moran, Mary.
• Mulcahy, Tony.
• Mullins, Michael.
• Noone, Catherine.
• O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
• O'Keeffe, Susan.
• O'Neill, Pat.
• Sheahan, Tom.
• Whelan, John.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.

Amendment declared lost.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Feargal Quinn has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That the time allowed for the contribution of each Senator on No. 1 be increased to 20 minutes." Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Feargal Quinn

Yes.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 12; Níl, 37.

Tá

• Barrett, Sean D.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Leyden, Terry.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Mullen, Rónán.
• Norris, David.
• Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• O'Sullivan, Ned.
• Quinn, Feargal.
• White, Mary M.
• Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

• Bacik, Ivana.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Brennan, Terry.
• Burke, Colm.
• Clune, Deirdre.
• Coghlan, Eamonn.
• Coghlan, Paul.
• Comiskey, Michael.
• Conway, Martin.
• Cullinane, David.
• Cummins, Maurice.
• D'Arcy, Jim.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Gilroy, John.
• Harte, Jimmy.
• Hayden, Aideen.
• Healy Eames, Fidelma.
• Henry, Imelda.
• Higgins, Lorraine.
• Keane, Cáit.
• Kelly, John.
• Mac Conghail, Fiach.
• Moloney, Marie.
• Moran, Mary.
• Mulcahy, Tony.
• Mullins, Michael.
• Noone, Catherine.
• Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
• O'Brien, Mary Ann.
• O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
• O'Keeffe, Susan.
• O'Neill, Pat.
• Reilly, Kathryn.
• Sheahan, Tom.
• van Turnhout, Jillian.
• Whelan, John.
• Zappone, Katherine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Rónán Mullen and Feargal Quinn; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.

Amendment declared lost.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

The Seanad divided by electronic means.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

Under Standing Order 62(3)(b), I request that the division be taken again other than by electronic means.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

The Seanad divided: Tá, 33; Níl, 12.

Tá

• Bacik, Ivana.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Brennan, Terry.
• Burke, Colm.
• Clune, Deirdre.
• Coghlan, Eamonn.
• Coghlan, Paul.
• Comiskey, Michael.
• Conway, Martin.
• Cummins, Maurice.
• D'Arcy, Jim.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Harte, Jimmy.
• Hayden, Aideen.
• Healy Eames, Fidelma.
• Henry, Imelda.
• Higgins, Lorraine.
• Keane, Cáit.
• Kelly, John.
• Mac Conghail, Fiach.
• Moloney, Marie.
• Moran, Mary.
• Mulcahy, Tony.
• Mullins, Michael.
• Noone, Catherine.
• O'Brien, Mary Ann.
• O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
• O'Keeffe, Susan.
• O'Neill, Pat.
• Sheahan, Tom.
• van Turnhout, Jillian.
• Whelan, John.
• Zappone, Katherine.

Níl

• Barrett, Sean D.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Leyden, Terry.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Mullen, Rónán.
• Norris, David.
• Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
• O'Brien, Darragh.
• O'Sullivan, Ned.
• Quinn, Feargal.
• White, Mary M.
• Wilson, Diarmuid.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson.

Question declared carried.