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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Nov 2013

Vol. 227 No. 12

Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Second Stage

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The key provisions I am introducing today relate mainly to occupational pensions. They address difficult issues of equity and fairness and have been under careful consideration for some time. The issues date back over much of the past decade and have been raised in both the 2007 Green Paper on pensions and the 2010 national pensions framework, both of which were published with much fanfare by the previous Government. However, this is the first time these issues have been comprehensively addressed. The aim of the Bill is to ensure a fairer deal for workers and sufficient protection for pensioners while allowing employers to tackle their pension problems.

Defined benefit schemes are private pension schemes in which those contributing to the scheme - the employer and the members - pool their contributions, which are then invested in order to pay a pension on retirement. The primary role of the employer as the sponsor in these schemes is an underlying principle in forming this legislation. So too is the sufficient protection of pensioners in these schemes, given the importance of security of income in retirement. Members of occupational pension schemes contribute to them in the expectation that the pension promised to them will be delivered in the future. This Bill acknowledges their role in the scheme and realigns that role to an extent. The stakeholders share both the benefits of the fund and also, in principle, the risks to the fund. The State's role as regulator is to watch over these private occupational schemes and ensure they can live up to their promises. The State recognises that it has obligations under EU law and it will address these obligations. This legislation does that.

The State also has a policy role to ensure all people have an adequate income in retirement.

It is well known that defined benefit schemes have had considerable funding difficulties for several years. I have brought legislation on occupational pensions into this House every year for the past number of years to help defined benefit schemes help themselves. Changes were made to give the trustees of defined benefit schemes options and help them improve their funding position. Last year, for example, after a period of suspension to allow schemes to get on with assessing their funding positions, I reintroduced the regulatory structure and schemes had to return their funding positions to the Pensions Board by June this year. The previous Government suspended the funding standard, believing that it would be like the bank guarantee but the problems continued. I am relieved to report the position is not as difficult as we had feared. Over 40% of schemes are fully funded. Although 20% are poorly funded, many of these schemes have put in funding proposals to the Pensions Board to get them back on track. The board is now engaged on an individual basis with schemes. We are in a more managed place.

This Bill introduces changes to the existing priority order. The priority order comes into play when a defined benefit scheme winds up. It basically outlines, step by step, the order in which the assets of the pension scheme are distributed when the scheme is winding up. Existing legislation comes from a time when defined benefit schemes were carrying surpluses. There is no issue for a scheme winding up when the scheme is funded, as all benefits can be met. It is when a scheme is underfunded that difficulties arise. The key issue with the existing priority order is that it gives 100% protection to pensions that are in payment and then distributes the rest of the funds to the current and former members of the scheme.

It can arise that pensioners receive all or almost all the pension fund and the members who have contributed but not retired receive considerably less than expected. This issue has been of concern for some time and considerable calls have come from employee and employer representatives, as well as the pensions industry, to address the current inequities. Detailed examination of these issues has taken place.

After considering all the factors, I am replacing the existing priority order to introduce two priority orders in this Bill. I am making provision for the situation where the pension scheme winds up and the employer is solvent. I am also providing for where both the employer and pension scheme are insolvent, happily a rare occurrence. This is to ensure the State meets its obligations under the insolvency directive following the ruling by the European Court of Justice in April this year.

In a single insolvency, the first priority will be given to defined contribution assets in a defined benefit scheme which should not be part of the distribution of defined benefit assets. This next priority is given to pensioners. They will still be given a significant level of priority but there will now be provision for a redistribution into the scheme from higher pensions at the initial distribution of the scheme assets. I am retaining 100% protection up to an annual amount of €12,000 for pensions and then providing priority of 90% for those between €12,000 and €60,000 and 80% for those over €60,000. This reprioritising of an element of pension benefit over €12,000 will contribute to the benefits of current and former employees which will be prioritised at 50%. This will apply only if the scheme is underfunded and its impact will depend on the degree of underfunding.

If there are sufficient funds in the scheme, any initial reductions to pensioners will be regained once the current and former members have been provided for and as the distribution of funds moves through the order outlined. Limits have been put in place in the legislation on how the reductions of 10% and 20% are applied to ensure these are proportionate.

This change is carefully balanced between the existing pensioners and the current and former contributors to the scheme who have not yet retired. This change also recognises that all of the beneficiaries of the scheme - all members and pensioners - need to share the risks when a scheme is underfunded. The limit of €12,000 takes into consideration that the median private sector defined benefit pension is €11,000, the average pension is €18,000 and 55% of private sector pensions are below €12,000. Pensions of up to €12,000 are 100% protected for existing pensioners.

The following is important, although it is often not mentioned in discussions. The vast majority of pensioners, separately to what they may be entitled to from a defined benefit scheme, receive the State pension, which is not affected in any way by these changes. I have fully protected the State pension since becoming Minister in light of its critical importance to older people. So a pensioner who has a State pension of €12,000 and an occupational pension of €12,000 will retain an income of €24,000, which is two-thirds of the average industrial earnings. By international standards this is quite a good level of pension provision.

This Bill also changes the priority order in the very particular situation of a double insolvency. This is when an employer goes out of business and the pension scheme is also underfunded. It is a particular situation which is covered by the EU insolvency directive. Article 8 of the directive requires that the State have measures in place to ensure that at least 49% of the expected benefits of the contributors to the scheme can be met. In April this year, the European Court of Justice found that the State was not meeting its obligations under Article 8, and this provision addressing the obligation by changing the order of priority in a double insolvency situation as follows. As before, first priority is given to defined contribution assets, which should not be part of the distribution of defined benefit assets as they are two separate structures. The second and third priorities are given to 50% of pensioner and member benefits. Then priority is given to protecting pensioner benefits up to €12,000. The remaining steps of the order continue to provide for the benefits of pensioners and then for benefits of current and former scheme members.

These changes to the order do the following. First, they meet the requirements of the directive by ensuring that scheme funds are distributed in a way that ensures that all members, including pensioners, receive 50% of their benefits. The next priority ensures that significant protection is in place to ensure pensioners receive a pension of €12,000. Again, much depends on the funding of the scheme. If the scheme is sufficiently funded, the distribution of funds can move through the various steps of the priority order and provide for the 50% requirement under the directive and then for pensioners' benefits up to €12,000, with the remainder going to pensioners' and other members' benefits.

In addition, this Bill provides that in a double insolvency, where a scheme has insufficient resources to provide 50% of benefits and protect €12,000 of pensioner benefits, the Minster for Finance shall provide for the shortfall in scheme assets. The Minister has agreed that some of the funds obtained from the pension levy can be used to fund any costs that arise.

In such situations, which I am happy to say are rare, it is proposed there would be a transfer of funds from the State to the scheme trustees by way of a once-off settlement. What is provided for here is a mechanism which can also provide for any historic situations which have arisen.

The aim of the Bill and the entire package of measures is to ensure as far as possible we have the minimum number of double insolvencies. The Pensions Board will introduce secondary legislation and will tighten up the regulation on underfunded defined benefit pension schemes with a view to ensuring such schemes take action to manage and improve their funding position. These measures and actions are all aimed at minimising the risk of double insolvencies arising in the future. Pensions are based on a promise by the employer and agreed levels of contributions by the employer and the employee. Protecting people's retirement income is critical. This is with regard to those who have retired, active members paying into the scheme, and deferred members, including those who went to work elsewhere or took redundancy, and have not yet reached pensionable age.

The Bill broadens the category of benefits that can be reduced where a defined benefit pension scheme is being restructured to improve its funding position and remain viable for all members. The reduction is progressive and the limits are as I outlined with regard to single insolvency. Pension benefits up to €12,000 are fully protected; annual pension amounts of between €12,000 and €60,000 can be reduced by up to 10%; and annual pension amounts over €60,000 can be reduced by up to 20%. This again brings increased fairness to the scheme, improves the position for the current and former scheme members and may, I hope, help a scheme stay open. I also want to emphasise the fact the provision provides for reductions of up to 10% and up to 20%. The trustees have discretion as to the percentage that needs to be applied. For example, a scheme with a high number of pensioners with high average pensions which applies a 1% reduction could mean an injection of funds of 2% to 3% back into the scheme for current and former workers.

I will also table a number of amendments to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 on Committee Stage, which are required to address issues raised recently in the High Court concerning the legal powers of deciding officers and appeals officers to revise decisions in certain cases. This is a complex issue. Legislation allows officials of the Department of Social Protection, including appeals officers, to revise decisions in a range of circumstances. These include situations where new evidence shows the original decision was wrong, and also situations where there has been a change of circumstances since the original decision. In the past, this flexibility has been seen as an asset, but when viewed in the context of a more modern interpretation of the law it also conveys an obligation. Last week the High Court confirmed if a deciding officer or appeals officer has the power to revise a decision, he or she also has an obligation to do so if requested.

Until now, in most cases it has been the practice of the Department that once a claim is refused and all review and appeals processes are finalised, if a customer seeks a revised decision based on changed circumstances he or she is advised to make a fresh application. The new claim is then fully assessed in the light of all the circumstances of the case. In light of the High Court decision, the Department can no longer require people to make a fresh claim, but must reopen a claim, even if it was closed many years previously. The purpose of the amendment is to address this issue, but in a limited range of circumstances. I stress that where the original decision was wrong, and if new facts and evidence emerge, the customer will still be able to seek a revised decision; the amendment does not change this. Where a claim is in payment, it will still be possible to revise the decision if circumstances change, but where a person was refused a social welfare payment in the past and their circumstances change the correct channel is to make a fresh application so the application can be considered in light of his or her current circumstances.

The amendment aims to ensure that this will be the practice in all cases.

In light of the High Court decision, I have asked Department officials to carry out a more wide-ranging review of the legislation on social welfare decisions and I will bring forward any necessary legislation at a later date. In order to facilitate the inclusion of these amendments on Committee Stage, section 2 of the Bill provides for two minor changes to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005. The inclusion of these amendments in this Bill necessitates a change in the Title of the Bill, as published, to the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill, and this in turn will facilitate the inclusion of the amendments to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 on Committee Stage.

In the area of pensions, I will be tabling a number of amendments to the Bill on Committee Stage to provide for the drawing down of benefits in the event of a shortfall arising in a double insolvency and to make consequential amendments to some of the provisions of Part 3 of the Bill as published. I will be making two technical amendments to provide for references to the Act of 1990 rather than the principal Act, and co-ordinating the text of section 48(1)(d) with the text of the Committee Stage amendment.

I will now outline the main provisions of the Bill. Section 1 provides for the Short Title, construction and collective citations. Section 2 provides for the correction of an erroneous reference and the deletion of an obsolete reference contained in table 2 of Schedule 3 to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, which lists certain items of income that are excluded from the assessment of means for social assistance payment purposes. Part 3 and section 3 define the term "Principal Act" as used for the purposes of part 3 as meaning the Pensions Act. Section 4 amends section 41 of the Pensions Act to affirm that the changes to the wind-up priority order apply to all defined benefit pension schemes subject to the statutory minimum funding standard. Section 5 inserts five new subsections to provide for the amendments to the priority order to replace the existing order with two new priority orders to deal with the scheme wind-up when the employer is solvent and when the employer is insolvent.

Section 6 broadens the category of benefits that can be reduced where a defined benefit scheme is being restructured because it does not meet the minimum funding standard. Sections 7 and 8 cross-reference section 50B and section 50C with subsection 1B. Section 9 amends section 59B to provide that the prohibition on reducing pensions in payment shall not apply to directions under section 50(1B).

In conclusion, this legislation achieves three things. It ensures that the State meets its obligations to put measures in place under the EU insolvency directive. It addresses the equity difficulties with the existing priority order. It also goes further by providing a further option to enable schemes to stay viable and open. People need to have a decent income when they retire and we want occupational pensions to be viable and effective. This legislation achieves a fine balance between the needs of the various parties and protects the State and the taxpayer.

I would like to reiterate that the Bill deals with defined benefit pension schemes and does not affect in any way the State's contributory and non-contributory retirement or old age pension. We should be clear about that, because sometimes when people hear the word "pension", they think of whatever pension they themselves may have. However, I wish to emphasise that this applies to people who are members of defined benefit pension schemes. I commend the Bill to the House.

Go raibh míle maith agat. I welcome the Minister to the House. She has made great play of emphasising that the situation does not apply to the State pension but the legislation hides a number of inadequacies in the Bill. We believe that the legislation is too little, too late. Over the past three years the Government has repeatedly failed to address the inequality that stems from the current pension priority order, that is the order in which assets are dispersed when a defined benefit pension scheme winds up. The Government said it was committed to keeping defined benefit schemes intact but the uncertain legislative framework that it allowed to continue created incentives for companies to close them. A quarter of defined benefit schemes will close this year alone and full scheme wind ups are becoming more common. Over the three years many defined benefit schemes have closed and active and deferred pensioners have lost a part of their pension rights.

If the legislation is passed, pensioners will no longer be totally insured against any collapse of their pension scheme after they retire unless they have a relatively small pension. If benefits are reduced in order to secure the pensions of deferred or active employees then it must be done in a transparent manner with a right of appeal for affected pensioners.

Potential problems with the legislation are as follows. The Government is almost certain to face a legal challenge from pensioners over the loss of what are considered property rights. The new law continues to allow profitable employers to walk away from pension problems by winding up schemes that are in deficit. In fact the additional regulatory burden implicit in the legislation actively encourages them to do so. The OECD recommends that a minimum of 90% funding should be achieved before a scheme can be closed in a case where the parent company is in financial health.

The Government has not resolved what level of payment would accrue to deferred pensioners in a double insolvency case. The Waterford Crystal case was sent back to the Irish High Court after the ruling by the European Court of Justice, and the High Court has yet to decide what level of pension should be protected. In the UK a similar case saw almost 90% of pension rights protected after an earlier European Court of Justice ruling. Waterford Crystal staff representatives have said that the 50% rate of protection is inadequate so the Government is faced with a dilemma. I know that the Government awaits the High Court decision and, therefore, cannot make an input.

The legislation appears to pave the way for the pension levy to be made permanent. The Minister for Finance claimed that extending the levy would "make provision for potential State liabilities which may emerge from pre­existing or future pension fund difficulties". His statement underlines the unfairness of the levy as it will also hit defined contribution pension schemes even though they cannot benefit from such a scheme. It will undermine the incentive to save for retirement. Earlier today the Minister for Social Protection said that pension benefits up to €12,000 will be fully protected. However, given the manner in which State benefits for the elderly have been systematically eroded by the Government, there has never been a greater need than now for such a safety net.

There is nothing in the legislation about thresholds rising over time in line with consumer prices to ensure consistency. The Bill ignores the thousands of workers who have lost pension rights while the Government dithered over recent years. We suggest the following: thresholds should be increased annually in line with inflation; the legislation should apply to schemes wound up since 2010, keeping in mind those that have been wound up over the past few years; a going concern should not be permitted to wind up its defined benefit company pension scheme unless it has reached a minimum of 90% funding; an appeal mechanism should be introduced where trustees have decided upon reduced benefits for members so that pensioners can be assured that they have not been unfairly treated in a restructuring arrangement; and the Pensions Board should commit to urgently updating its statutory guidance on aspects of the Pensions Act for trustees following the introduction of the Bill.

I shall list the more long-term measures required. We believe that there is a need for a Minister for pensions as only someone with a seat at the Cabinet table would have the clout to insist that the situation is addressed, as a matter of extreme urgency. Action is also needed to improve pension coverage. Among OECD countries, only Ireland and New Zealand do not have compulsory saving for a pension.

Pension costs need to be tackled. One of the persistent criticisms of the private pension industry is that it is designed to make vast sums of money for the pension manufacturers, that is the fund managers, administrators and intermediaries. As I have said before, during various debates with the Minister, pension funds are often described as opaque, confusing and offering only mediocre to poor value for pension holders. A report compiled by the Department of Social Protection last year showed the impact of high charges, particularly in the case of small schemes. It showed that someone who saved €250 a month from the age of 35 could end up with a fund of €200,000 after 30 years. This would leave him or her with an annual pension of €10,000 in retirement, if there were no charges. According to the report, an average charge of 2.18% a year would reduce the fund by €62,000 and thus leave a pension of just €6,900.

In an extreme case, under current rules, if a scheme collapses, a person one day short of retirement can have his or her entire pension wiped out, while a person who has just retired will retain 100% of his or hers.

In the Waterford Crystal case, up to 1,200 workers were affected by the collapse of the company's defined benefit scheme when the company went bust in 2009. The scheme was understood to be worth €82 million, but liabilities to employees are estimated at up to €380 million. In a British case, in 2007 the European Court of Justice stated a figure of 49% was insufficient and the British Government subsequently paid out 90% of the fund. The Waterford Crystal workers took their case against the State to the High Court and it was then referred to the European Court of Justice. In April it ruled the State had failed to protect the pension interests of the Waterford Crystal workers in a case of double insolvency but gave no indication of how much of the shortfall the State should meet. That issue needs to be addressed urgently.

On the extension of the pension levy, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, said the 0.15% increase in 2014 would raise an extra €135 million a year and that the proceeds could be used "to make provision for potential State liabilities which may emerge from pre-existing or future pension fund difficulties." Under the terms of the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013, the levy has been given a specific purpose as a method of compensation for schemes in difficulty; therefore, it is likely to be extended indefinitely.

According to the National Pensions Board, only 54% of the workforce have pension coverage. This is a real problem, one that the previous Administration tackled also. Within the working population there are wide disparities. The level of coverage in the public service is more than 90%, while in some areas of the private sector the level of coverage is very low. The national pensions framework published by the previous Government in 2010 cited the examples of the hotel and restaurant sectors in which the level of pension coverage was 23%, while level in the wholesale and retail trade was just 36%.

Independent consumer research carried out on behalf of the National Pensions Board indicates that almost eight out of ten people who do not contribute to a pension scheme said the State pension would not meet their needs in retirement. Although employers are obliged by law to offer employees access to a pension scheme, 43% of those interviewed had not been offered such access, of whom 93% had never asked an employer about access to a pension scheme. Although the level of awareness of tax relief on pension contributions is relatively high at 73%, the majority did not know or had incorrectly understood the amount of tax relief that applied to them. The reason for the high level of awareness of the tax relief was the pension industry's own actions and activities in the weeks leading up to the deadline when there was a concentration of advertising. Therefore, it is not surprising that people would be so aware. However, it is interesting that they have not followed through, as the other statistics indicate.

The key issue for the Minister and the Government is how to improve the level of coverage. This will have to be done through a combination of incentives, including a soft-hard initiative. The issue of mandatory pension contributions will have to be given serious consideration. Among OECD countries only Ireland and New Zealand do not provide for compulsory pension contributions. In 2008 the Comptroller and Auditor General estimated the scale of pension liabilities in respect of public sector pensions at a staggering €108 billion. The amount has grown since.

I thank the Minister for coming to address the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013. We have all read about pension funds becoming insolvent in recent years, the most notable case being that of the Waterford Crystal workers who had to deal with the issue of double insolvency when both the company and the pension fund became insolvent. This is cold comfort to any person who has spent a lifetime working hard, paying into a defined benefit pension scheme in order to provide financial security for themselves and their partner in older years. In making pension provision, people want to ensure they will not fall into a poverty trap in old age and that they will have a reasonable disposable income based on their financial needs at this time and that they will have access to adequate health care support. However, in recent years some people who had worked for many years and contributed to a pension fund had to face the awful realisation that their fund was insolvent and that there were insufficient funds to provide adequate pension cover.

I have read the briefing documents the Department has provided and it is clear that there has been widespread concern within all sectors - employers, employees, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and pension actuaries - that the issue of adequate funding of pension schemes needs to be addressed.

The Minister facilitated a consultation process earlier in the year with the relevant stakeholders to identify what is needed to protect all those contributing to a defined benefit scheme. I note the amendment to section 50 of the Pensions Act and the inclusion of three subsections, subsections (1B), (1C) and (1D), to broaden the category of benefits that can be reduced where a defined benefit pension scheme is being restructured because it does not meet the statutory minimum funding standard. Section 50 of the Pensions Act permits the Pensions Board to direct the trustees of a pension scheme to reduce the benefits of current and former scheme members or post-retirement increases in benefits for pension scheme members whose scheme does not meet the statutory minimum funding standard.

The proposed subsection (1B) provides for reductions to the benefits payable to pensioners by certain percentages within certain limits. The proposed subsection (1C) prohibits any reduction of an annual pension that is €12,000 or less. For pensions greater than €12,000, a reduction of up to 10% can be made where the annual pension is between €12,000 and €60,000, and up to 20% where the annual pension is greater than €60,000. The proposed subsection (1D) prohibits any reduction that would reduce a pension to below €12,000 or that would reduce a pension to below €54,000 if the annual pension is €60,000 or more.

I am glad to see there will be no change to the State contributory pension of €12,000 per year. However, for the purpose of clarity, could the Minister advise on possible reductions affecting those currently in receipt of a defined pension? Is there a disregard for the first €12,000? For example, if a person is in receipt of a total pension of €40,000 per year, with €12,000 being the State pension and the balance, €28,000, being a defined benefit pension, is the 10% applicable on the €28,000 or on the total pension of €40,000? Likewise, if a person has a pension in excess of €60,000, which includes the State pension of €12,000, how is the 20% applied?

There is justifiable concern among those currently in receipt of a defined pension that it may be reduced, albeit in a temporary capacity, until there are adequate moneys in the fund to provide for those coming on-stream. Hence, I would like clarity on the aforesaid figures.

It must be noted that the purpose of this Bill is fairness and to ensure there is enough money in the pension pot for everybody. I understand the State can intervene to ensure a fairer deal for workers and sufficient protection for pensions while allowing employers address their pension scheme problem. I have no doubt that this Bill will be widely debated and amendments tabled but we must ask ourselves in our discussion whether it is fair that a person who has contributed all his or her life to a defined benefit pension scheme could have no pension entitlement on reaching retirement if the fund is insolvent. Can the State be expected to solve all pension deficits when a pension fund becomes insolvent?

Social protection is vital, particularly as we get older. To ensure adequate social protection, pension provision is fundamental. It is important to address the common concept that pensions are for old people. Investing in a pension needs to commence when we enter the workplace in order to provide some financial security to ensure we will have a certain level of comfort on reaching retirement. There is a tendency to address pension needs only when we are in our fifties, which is quite late given that we reach pension age at 66 years and may not have contributed sufficiently to provide the financial support required in our later years.

I commend the Minister on addressing this issue comprehensively. It has been noted that although several reports were published under the previous Administration, including the Green Paper on Pensions, 2007, and National Pensions Framework, 2010, nothing was done. I congratulate the Minister on what she is doing.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. On the Order of Business this morning, my colleague Senator van Turnhout, who cannot be here, requested a debate with the Minister before Christmas on the youth guarantee. Could we have a date for this before the Irish submission on the guarantee is made to the European Union? The Leader encouraged us to ask this on the Order of Business.

This is a crucial and sensitive piece of proposed legislation. A majority of citizens do not consider their pension or possible entitlements until they are well into their working life. Often these issues arise as one moves into middle age and close to retirement. I have lived the life of a freelancer. I do not have a defined benefit pension but, thankfully, I copped on a couple of years ago and set up a PRSA. I can also afford it and I am aware many find it difficult to support such a retirement plan these days.

I have had the recent and unfortunate experience of closing down a defined benefit scheme at the Abbey Theatre. It was a terrible and anxious time for all members concerned, but particularly the deferred and current active members. As a Senator or artistic director of the national theatre, I never thought I would become an expert on pensions. The fact is that our scheme was fully funded and up to date at the end of 2007 and within a couple of years, we were showing a significant deficit in the scheme through no fault of our own or of the employee. As I learned, the concept of defined benefit is flawed and we were placing an unequal burden on some members over others. There are more than 200,000 members of defined benefit schemes. They were popular with employees as they placed the burden of funding of the pension on the shoulders of the employer. As a not-for-profit NGO, it placed tremendous pressure on an arts organisation such as the Abbey.

We had a substantial deficit in our scheme, despite the fact that a contribution totalling €2.27 million was made by the Abbey over that period of time. It deteriorated, as, indeed, is the case with over 80% of all defined benefit schemes. The reasons include that life expectancy has increased substantially pushing up the cost of pension provision and investment performance has been poor in recent years, in particular, since the worldwide financial crisis which began in 2008. Another reason is that interest rates have fallen to record levels making low the assumption for future growth of schemes' assets. Also, falling interest rates had the effect of increasing the value of future liabilities as discount factors used to reflect the diminishing value of money over time are based on these rates. Finally, the more onerous funding requirement implemented by the Pensions Board had that impact.

The Public Service Reform Plan Critical Review, published in April 2013, states:

Occupational [defined benefit] pension schemes continue to face financing challenges due to a range of factors. These include an under-estimation of longevity, poor investment returns, the impact of the downturn in financial markets (in which significant declines in asset values were exacerbated by rapid increases in the valuation of liabilities as interest rates dropped) and the imposition of a tax levy of 0.6% of assets from 2011 to 2014. Following the 2008 financial crisis in excess of 80% of schemes fell into an underfunded position, ...

The position referred to is the position which I experienced in my organisation. It caused a tremendous amount of anxiety, particularly for our current members and deferred members, but also for the pensioners who had benefit from their contributions and the employees' contributions.

Senator Mooney mentioned the index-link for inflation. Is there provision in the Bill for this to be reviewed every couple of years as that adds security? The Minister is quite a good communicator when it comes to pensions matters. One of the issues we must address in the debate, both here and in the Dáil, is to minimise the level of anxiety. Some of those questions, and, indeed, some of the questions Senator Hildegarde Naughton raised, are important. I thought the Minister's performance on "Morning Ireland" the previous morning was very good, but we need to continue that to avoid increased anxiety, of which I have personal experience.

Also, on what date, subject to democracy and votes, does the Minister imagine this Bill will be enacted because that might cause a particular concern for schemes which have been winding down? As the Minister will be aware, there is a deluge of schemes being wound down, particularly in the single insolvency category. Perhaps there could be clarity about a cut-off date because there will be unfortunate overlaps in that regard. Clarity is required.

I am supporting the Bill, as is my colleague Senator van Turnhout, who unfortunately cannot be here with us at this session.

The clarity with which the information relating to the issue of double and single insolvency is set out in the Bill is most welcome.

The legislation is about fairness and sharing the burden. I am aware of a terrible situation where one employee was only ten months away from retirement when we shut down our scheme. As we proposed to wind down the scheme, it emerged that his rights and entitlements were completely different from those of a person who had retired just a year previously. That is a terrible position in which to be placed. I am supporting the Bill because it proposes to rebalance matters in this regard. Essentially, in the situation to which I refer, those already in receipt of pensions had first dibs and the person with ten months remaining in employment was placed at the end of the queue. The Bill will, as I understand it, ensure that all members in a pension scheme will share some element of the deficit, regardless of how unsatisfactory that may prove to be. We did nothing but try to fund our scheme to the limit. There are many organisations - NGOs, not-for-profit charities, etc. - which are in a very difficult position whereby their need to continually fund and top up their pension schemes will threaten their sustainability and solvency. It is regrettable that schemes of this nature often have to be wound down in order that the organisations themselves might survive.

The Bill will also ensure that the assets in a scheme will be distributed more fairly. As a recent editorial in The Irish Times noted, it makes provision for "a rebalancing of risk in a more equitable way". It is an example of a reasonably swift response by the Minister and the Government to a most distressing and current challenge.

I welcome the Minister. She is becoming a regular visitor. I hope she will come before us on a few more occasions prior to Christmas in order to take Committee and Report Stages of this Bill and engage in a debate on the youth guarantee.

Defined benefits mean exactly what they imply, namely, when one finishes making contributions - more than likely the point at which one will also finish working - what one is paid is defined. A person with a defined benefit pension enters into a contract with his or her employer and expects what has been defined or promised to be paid out in the end. Unfortunately, however, many pension schemes are in trouble at present. Trustees placed funds in what they anticipated would be reliable and rewarding investments but this has not proven to be the case, particularly in view of the fall in the value of stocks and shares and the position of the economy in general. As a result, schemes are completely under-funded. I understand that some funds were invested in bonds held by the famous bondholders, whom people wanted to burn. If the latter had happened, many pension schemes would have gone under.

If a pension scheme in this country is under-funded, the trustees of that scheme are required to take action in order to bring them back into a funded position. Of the 800 schemes here, some 40% are fully funded. However, the remainder are either under-funded or poorly funded. What the Minister and the Government are setting out to do in this Bill is to ensure equity and fairness to all who have contributed during their working lives. The legislation relates to pension schemes which are being restructured, single insolvency and - where both a scheme and a company are insolvent - double insolvency. Under the provisions of the Bill, the Minister and the Government are seeking to ensure that those who paid into pension schemes for their entire working lives will not be left with nothing when they retire. Senator Mooney referred to circumstances where a person who is only one day away from reaching the pension age might be left high and dry. The Minister is attempting to rectify the position in that regard and to bring some equality to the situation. At present, the bulk of pension funds are being paid out to existing pensioners. These people, who also contributed during their entire working lives, are entitled to their pensions. If, however, a company and a scheme are to be restructured or both become insolvent, then workers who have made contributions for all of their lives would not get much of - or perhaps any - pension. This simply would not be fair to those who have yet to retire.

What is proposed in the Bill will apply to the private sector only. All pensioners will have an entitlement to the State pension, which the Minister has continually protected since entering office. She has given a commitment to the effect that she will continue to protect it.

Existing pensioners who have an occupational and State pension will have percentage protection under the new legislation. As the Minister noted, people with pensions of less than €12,000 per annum have nothing to fear as they will be fully protected, while those with pensions in excess of €12,000 will have 50% of the value of their pension exceeding €12,000 protected. I welcome the commitment by the Minister to protect occupational pensions of less than €12,000 as the individuals in question have the smallest pensions and will have been hard-pressed to contribute to their pension scheme during their working years. They did so to provide a decent income for themselves and their spouses in their old age. The measures in the Bill have been taken to ensure fairness in the distribution of pension funds to all those who have contributed. The Bill changes the position from 100% priority to pensioners to 50% priority to all members of the scheme.

Senators will recall that the pay-out under the defined benefits scheme came to a head this year when workers at Waterford Crystal took a case to the European Court of Justice. This was an appropriate course of action as it was devastating for the workers to find their pension entitlements had been seriously eroded due to a shortfall in funding and the insolvency of their pension scheme. It took courage and determination to take their case to the European Court of Justice, which ruled in their favour in April last. We must now meet our obligations and address the court's ruling on the insolvency directive. This requires that we put in place measures to ensure at least 49% of expected benefits are paid to members when the employer and pension scheme are both insolvent.

As I stated, the Bill does not affect people on defined contribution pension schemes or the State contributory pension. The State, that is, the taxpayer, cannot fund private pensions. This means trustees must find ways to increase pension funds to a level that meets their members' requirements. The Bill provides trustees with the option of restructuring a scheme. If they see fit, they may reduce a higher pension and they are also given discretion on the final amount. Trustees will be able to reduce higher pensions of between €12,000 and €60,000 by 10% and pensions of more than €60,000 by 20%, thus ensuring that those who are better off pay most.

The legislation will ensure, in the case of double insolvency, that the State will guarantee that existing pensions of more than €12,000 per annum will be protected to the amount of 50%. I welcome the Minister's announcement that she has secured agreement from the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, to use funds from the pension levy to honour her commitment. It also provides for a scenario where the pension scheme were to remain viable and could, depending on its future investment performance, restore benefits to those whose pensions had been reduced.

The Minister has invested considerable work in this legislation and consulted all relevant stakeholders. In the case of a single insolvency, is legislation required to force employers to honour their commitments? Currently, an employer can walk away from a business and establish a new company under another name. Is legislation required to safeguard workers in such a scenario?

I note the Bill makes amendments to the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act. In light of the High Court decision that it is not necessary for new applications to be made for claims and that old claims must be reopened, what is the position regarding arrears in such cases? If a decision is made on the basis of a change of circumstances, will it be necessary to backdate payment to the date of application or only as far as to the point at which the relevant changes took place? Opening up an old application could have ramifications in terms of how much will be paid in arrears. I ask the Minister to examine this issue before Committee Stage.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Hayes. He chaired a committee related to these matters at one time. The Minister, Deputy Burton, has a background in accounting and has always taken an interest in this issue. She has really pushed it forward.

I was pleased the Minister found that 40% of the schemes are fully funded, because there has been something of a panic in the pensions sector. She also found that 20% are poorly funded, but many of these schemes have put funding proposals to the Pensions Board to get them back on track. The problem, as Jill Kirby observed in The Sunday Times, is that we have new rules but we retain many of the same old pensions problems, although there are fewer according to the Minister's findings. The situation relating to defined benefit schemes looks a little more optimistic than we thought.

We approach this after the problems in many financial institutions and banks, with accountants not performing and, indeed, pension funds as well. Many of the funds are in deficit, so one must ask, if the problems are not to recur, what new rules there will be to ensure the trustees of pension funds do not get into these bankrupt situations. Their duties were defined by the Pensions Board in 2010. They include acting in the best interests of beneficiaries, acting fairly between beneficiaries and acting prudently and diligently. Perhaps, just as stricter regulation of bankers and their accountants was required, stricter regulation of pension funds is required as well.

Some of the reasons the pension funds have put forward for the difficulties they got into strike me as more a tribute to their lack of competence than anything intrinsic. They underestimated longevity. Lloyd George introduced the old age pension for people of 65 years of age at a time when the majority of people did not live until 65. It appears to me that it is quite easy to predict longevity and the fund managers should have factored that in, not offered it as an excuse as to why they ran out of money and had to be rescued through this Bill. They also cite poor investment returns. That is, in a sense, an acknowledgement of their incompetence as investors. Yet again, the taxpayer is invited to bail them out. I hope they will up their performance in respect of poor investment returns. They also cite the downturn in financial markets.

The briefing documents we received refer to the reluctance to raise the retirement age. I have no such reluctance. When the pension age of 65 years was introduced it was greater than life expectancy. If we are living for many extra years we should at least find out, on a voluntary basis, how many people would prefer to work and thereby reduce the strain on pensions funds. In fact, the troika included that requirement in its early look at the situation in Ireland. If people are living much longer, the cost to the funds will be greater and the contributions could be increased by asking people to work for longer. Many would be prepared to do it. I know people who retired very much against their better judgment. They missed being at work and the comradeship and so forth.

There are elements of moral hazard in this, in that the taxpayer must pay, through the levy, as well as those in well-run defined benefits schemes and those in defined contribution schemes. That is a trend we must get away from in financial management in Ireland. It is always the good guys who are required to pay for somebody else. I do not think the Minister could have avoided that, but I will mention some quotes later to show that we need a much stricter regime for the regulation of this sector. It is coming here after the banks with their accountants and so forth to tell us it is broke and is seeking yet another bailout. There are also the credit unions. We all know the list; it is very long. We must require the sector to improve its performance.

With regard to some of the criticisms, one is that pensioners could face losing up to half of their income under the planned rule changes.

I do not see it.

Another complaint is that a sum of €12,000 will leave people in poverty, but the Minister has explained there are two payments of €12,000, that is, the minimum amount from the defined benefit scheme plus the State pension. I understand the maximum one will lose is 20%. One newspaper article suggested a pension of €36,000 could be cut by up to €18,000 in the worst case scenario. I do not see this from what has been said. The same article also claimed someone on a defined benefit pension of €20,000 could lose up to €2,000, which is considerably less than half. On the claim that 50,000 people could be out of pocket, the situation in respect of defined benefit schemes may be better than we have been led to believe and the Minister has noted that many of them are solvent. We must look at the reasons the schemes got into trouble and how the trustees conducted themselves. Stricter rules should be applied to them.

The expert group made an interesting observation on the public service reform plan for integration of the regulatory functions of the Pensions Board and the Central Bank. If we are moving to defined contribution schemes, we need a different scheme of regulation as per normal financial services. I hope we have put such a scheme in place. The group noted that defined contribution pension schemes shifted responsibility for savings and investment decisions to members and also transferred the associated risks to members. Effective regulation and supervision of these schemes, therefore, require a different mix of expertise, authority and programmes than for defined benefit arrangements. It went on to argue that such schemes necessitated a focus on the integrity of the fund transfers from employers to investment managers, the reliability of record keeping for the accounting of individual fund balances, the suitability of investment products, the quality of investment management and the appropriateness of fees. That makes their oversight more akin to the supervision of retail investment products than occupational defined benefit schemes, in which the sponsors underwrite these risks and are, therefore, regulated with a focus on the probity of governance and long-term financial solvency.

We need new institutional arrangements not only for defined benefit schemes but also for defined contribution schemes. There are transfers, albeit smaller than the transfers to the banks, and we still have not caught up with the accountants who advised on them. The message from this legislation has to be that the State is doing its bit with the levy to impose costs on some pensioners to fund badly run schemes. The Central Bank was a party to the document to which I referred on integrating the Pensions Ombudsman with the Financial Services Ombudsman. Given our dreadful experience with the figure of €64 billion, a figure that is expected to increase, and the problems in the pensions industry, we need tighter and more conservative financial regulation. I hope that will be part of what we are proposing.

Some Members argue that we should have more time to debate this Bill rather than take all Stages on Thursday. We may have suggestions that would be of value to the Minister and her Department. I commend the Bill to the House. It is something that needed to be done because we require much better performance from the pensions industry.

I assure Senator Sean D. Barrett that we will not be taking all Stages on Thursday. We will be taking Committee Stage when we will have ample time to discuss amendments. Report Stage will be taken next week.

When I heard Senator Paschal Mooney state this was too little too late, I was reminded of the EU directive and when it was introduced in the first place.

I think of the Robbins case in the United Kingdom and the seven reports the previous Government commissioned on pensions, although it did sweet damn all about them. It is a bit rich for Members of a party which was part of the previous Government to say this is too little, too late.

It is too late for the Waterford Crystal workers.

This is a genuine attempt by the Minister to address what is an appalling situation. The failure of the previous Government to protect defined benefit pension schemes has had devastating consequences for people in my city. I know many people who worked in the company for over 40 years and who, when within days of getting their pensions, suddenly discovered their money had gone down the Swanee. They had paid contributions for that length of time and with their families had a genuine expectation of receiving moneys, but they were left with a fraction of them. I compliment the Waterford Crystal workers on taking their case to the European court with the union, which they won, but they are still wondering when they will receive their entitlements. On Saturday the Taoiseach was at a function in Waterford outside which many former members of Waterford Crystal protested. The Taoiseach said he was genuinely concerned about their plight. He spoke to some of them on the day. Those who paid in all their lives should receive their entitlements. The court case will take place next week and, as a result, I hope a determination will be made in order that workers will receive their just entitlements. It has gone on for so long that some of them have passed away while awaiting receipt of their pensions. Many others are very unwell and time is of the essence where they are concerned.

I have received calls from many people who are receiving their Waterford Crystal pensions and asking whether, as a result of the Bill, they will lose some of their entitlements. The answer is no, which I ask the Minister to confirm. Those who are receiving their pensions will not be affected by the legislation. The purpose of the Bill is to address the underfunding of defined benefit schemes, the equity issue where a defined benefit scheme is wound up and the ruling of the European Court of Justice of 13 April on the insolvency directive. There are 800 defined benefit schemes, 40% of which are fully funded. Some 30% are underfunded, while 20% are poorly funded. There is much work to be done in that regard. The Minister is to be complimented on her efforts in acting in such a short period. The proposals made will support defined benefit schemes in remaining viable, minimising the impact on the Exchequer and the taxpayer, increasing risk sharing between scheme members, which is where the issue of fairness comes in, and achieving a 50% target level for all members. They also address all cases involving a wind-up, will reduce the incentive to wind up schemes and prevent complex and costly regulatory structures.

Senator Sean D. Barrett referred to costs and the commission fund managers receive. We have spoken about this issue in the House on several occasions. The fund managers are not the ones who suffer when pension funds are in deficit. They receive their money, but the innocent people who have paid money in during the years are left high and dry, while fund managers have their money in their back pockets. We have a long way to go in that regard. I am sure, however, that we will have a comprehensive debate on Committee and Report Stages. This is an important Bill and I commend the Minister on introducing it and acting to deal with a very difficult situation.

Unlike my colleague, Senator Maurice Cummins, I do not commend the Minister. There was an issue that needed to be addressed, namely, people who had paid in to defined benefit schemes, on coming to retirement age, suddenly found themselves being disadvantaged as the fund was not properly equipped to deal with the liabilities incurred. An effort is being made to deal with that issue, but there are still many unanswered questions.

In October 2011 the Minister recognised the problem in defined benefit schemes. Over two years later, we are still not addressing the issues involved, other than in one particular case. One of the biggest issues is that the Minister is allowing employers which are profitable to walk away from their responsibilities to their employees. I do not understand how she has allowed this to continue to happen. I have been in touch with the Pensions Board and I am amazed it shows so little empathy and perhaps has so little power in dealing with the issue. EMI in Britain is an example of a profitable company which has subsidiaries here. It was subsequently sold on to an American company and there was a major deficit within the pension fund. The company had ploughed £200 million into the pension fund in Britain in advance of the sale for employees there because it was a requirement before the transfer could take place. However, it abandoned the pension fund here and put nothing into it. The Pensions Board is very familiar with the case which it has examined. As a consequence, it is one of the funds the Bill will address. Those with pensions within that scheme will be deprived of 10% or 20% because action was not taken to deal with the issue. Why did the Minister not consider making the Bill retrospective? Why did she not deal with the issue of employers which were solvent and in a position to meet their liabilities? The OECD recommends a minimum figure of 90%. Why is the Minister not providing for this? Why is she allowing companies to get off scot free and avoid their obligations? In many cases, these are obligations to employees who have spent up to 40 years with a company. It is not good enough.

The Bill is entitled the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill, but a more appropriate title would be "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul". This is taking from existing pensioners to meet deficits simply because we have another example of regulatory failure. We know where this got us in the financial services system. It is also happening in this sector and across all registry bodies.

I would hazard a guess that there are few, if any, functioning as they should. In many instances the people at the top of these organisations are marking time on enhanced salaries until they get their pensions, which will not be cut or contributing to the scheme.

I have a letter from somebody in the ESB, and we all know that we may be facing an industrial relations crisis with that company. My understanding from this correspondent is that something like €80 million was being taken from the ESB fund by the State because of the pension levy. The Minister for Finance gave a commitment at the outset that this measure would exist for four years at 0.6% and with the 2012 budget he went on record in the House as saying it would be discontinued this year. That is not happening. If one cannot believe a Minister for Finance on a significant taxation issue, what confidence can anybody have in this regard?

The Minister did not highlight another element in her speech. These people are not getting 50% of final salary in pensions and in many cases, an inflation factor is built in. Where such an inflation factor is built in, it would range from 3% to 5%. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong but these people will be deprived of that sum. In a company where I worked, people left on a fixed pension and within a period of years, it had eroded to almost insignificance because of inflation levels. Currently, there is a worry about deflation in Europe but following a financial crisis, it is very likely we will end up at some stage with hyper-inflation, as that is a normal cycle. That would have a serious effect on these pensions, and there is no commitment, as far as I can see, to any of these people that their position will be addressed by way of a review of their pensions. This is a bit like shifting the chairs on the Titanic, taking provisions from one person and giving them to another. We are doing too much of that. I would like to see a real root and branch analysis of the pension scheme.

The Minister has not highlighted the capital cost that will be required in order to meet the deficits that will arise. I am sure the Department or the Pensions Board has done some assessment in that regard. Even with the private pensions into which people have paid, there is a very low volume of people in the private sector with any pensions other than the State provision. That is not good when the demographics are changing, as they are, and we have done nothing to tackle the major deficit of approximately €120 billion or €130 billion in the public sector. Something more serious and fundamental will have to be done with pensions. I am particularly disappointed in this Bill, as it only scratches the surface. Two years after the Minister identified the problem - she is an accountant so she understands the issue as well as I do - it must be tackled in a much more comprehensive manner than is evident with this Bill. It is a pity that has not happened, and the opportunity has been missed.

I welcome the Minister, who makes very reasonable arguments. She has indicated that she has brought in this legislation to help defined benefit schemes help themselves, with changes made to give the trustees of defined benefit schemes options and help them improve their funding position. My only difficulty with that is it seems to rebalance the equation in favour of the trustees and against the pensioners. The trustees are people charged with the responsibility of looking after this money.

The Minister also indicates she is relieved that the position is "not as catastrophic" as feared and 40% of schemes are fully funded; that sounds fairly catastrophic to me. Perhaps it could be much worse but by God that is a frightful indictment of the people in control of these schemes.

She continued by saying that everything was okay when the defined benefit schemes were in surplus. This is true and nobody could possibly deny it. In the case of a single insolvency, it seems extraordinary that a company can continue to trade and make a profit but welsh on its responsibility to employees and pensioners. Will the Minister address that by way of amendment?

As I am on the subject of amendments, the Minister will no doubt be charmed, amused and entertained to know that we had a discussion on the Order of Business today as to whether we would be allowed have amendments at all on the Bill, as two days notice were not given. I do not know where that came from but I am delighted to see the Minister introducing amendments. We had a good discussion on the Order of Business and it has been decided that we will have amendments, which is appropriate. We must be very careful and examine how business is conducted in this House. There should never be a case where for technical reasons within the Bills Office, amendments are not allowed, as this House has a principal function of providing such amendments.

I noticed certain gaps in the Minister's performance of her written script, unlike some other Members, who read extensively from provided scripts or scripts they had made. I am not arguing about it and such practice is fair enough. I am only pointing this out in self-defence, as they may appear more grammatically correct than I do. The Minister left out a sentence in her script stating "Technical advice was undertaken on the provisions and a consultation with all the stakeholder groups took place." That seems to be contradicted by a briefing from the Ireland Senior Citizens Parliament, which seeks the right of audience for pensioners and indicates that this is not being dealt with by the Bill. They are being deprived of a right of audience. It has made the point that employers have always asserted pension payments and the sponsorship of pension schemes to the benefit of an employee as a valid and compulsory part of remuneration. Until the 1970s, pensioners had a right of audience to the industrial relations machinery of the State. A successful pensioner case was then reversed by the then Minister for Labour in the 1970s. In dealing with the matter of pensions, which is sensitive and a matter of fairness, all stakeholders should be included. My understanding is that not all stakeholders were included in the process, although I am not accusing the Minister of being involved. I am sure it was a Freudian slip when she left out that line from the speech.

The Minister has also indicated that the majority of pensioners received a State pension. I should receive part of a State pension but I did not think it right to take it as I thought others needed it more. The net result was newspapers in this country printing stories indicating I defrauded the Trinity pension scheme. They also argued that I am a tax cheat. The College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Queen Elizabeth near Dublin did not bother its fanny to come near me and put out a statement of fact, although I asked it to. It need not think it is getting a shilling in my will.

The Senator has 30 seconds.

I will make them a long 30 seconds and as we know, according to Einstein, time is flexible. The Minister indicates the Minister for Finance shall provide for the shortfall in scheme assets, which is a very welcome matter.

The Waterford Crystal pensions case is instructive and interesting. It was determined that pension scheme members are to be protected where insolvency occurs. Where the company continues to trade, it should not be allowed walk away from obligations. Employers should be made pay the debt of pension promises rather than making existing pensioners and the State pick up the debts. In the United Kingdom, Conservative and Labour Governments have protected work pensions through legislation which makes employer pension promises a debt that much be honoured. The Waterford Crystal case was a tragedy and an absolute disgrace.

It was known as Waterford Wedgewood originally. Look at the difference in the way the Wedgewood employees were treated. That was a shocking reproach to all of us.

Regarding equalisation, the figure of 80% and all the rest of it, speaking personally, my head is above water again, financially, thank God. There is a social obligation on people like me who have a little bit of money or extra cash to support those on very small pensions or whose pensions have been abolished. I would have no objection to this. I would regard it as an honour to take a cut in any pension I have in order to help others. I am sure everybody else in this House feels the same.

I have received many letters from former colleagues of mine who are still working in the ESB. These are very disappointed and dedicated workers who are deeply concerned about how they are being treated, not alone by the Government but also the previous one. All of my former colleagues are compulsory members of a contributory defined benefit pension scheme. It was obligatory for them on joining the ESB to sign up to the scheme. They are very fearful of what the position will be when they reach retirement age. For many of these men and women, it was their first job. Some came out of college or university and went straight into the ESB which always was a great employer. Many of them will not be entitled to the State contributory pension and they believe they carry all of the risks in the new pension scheme. Is this the case?

Since 2011, the Government has been accepting accounts from the ESB, wrongly, in my view. These accounts describe the scheme as a defined contribution pension scheme which was never known as a defined contribution scheme. There is no basis whatsoever for the change in its description since 2011 other than for accountancy reasons. Because of a deficit in the ESB accounts, the company will not provide funds to address whatever deficits occur. The company has categorically stated it will not meet the deficit under any circumstances. I also understand the Government plans to take in the region of €600 million from the company, but the ESB pension scheme badly needs that money. Under the new rules, many ESB employees will only have 3% pension coverage and will receive no State pension. The ESB is not prepared to accept any of the risk owing to its new accountancy system. I do not think it is fair that an ever diminishing number of dedicated staff in the ESB should carry all of the risk for a scheme to which they contributed 7% of their gross wages for all their years of employment to obtain their rightful entitlements. The mismanagement of the scheme was and continues to be the responsibility of the ESB and its owners.

I welcome the Minister. Senator Maurice Cummins made a very passionate contribution on the plight of the former Waterford Crystal workers. He spoke about the injustice visited upon hundreds of former workers who had to take the State to court to get their pension entitlements. He expressed the hope the High Court case would be heard as soon as possible and mentioned that it might be heard next week. He said he hoped there would be a positive outcome for the former workers. It is important that they receive their payments as soon as possible. They took a case to the High Court which referred the issues in the case to the European Court of Justice which found in favour of the workers on all counts. However, as the Minister knows, the former Waterford Crystal workers are still waiting for their money. They should get their proper entitlements as soon as possible.

One of the fears of the workers is that there is every possibility that the court case could be deferred again. I hope that does not happen, but if it does, I ask the Minister to negotiate with the trade union Unite which is representing the workers to make sure they are paid at least the 50% of the money to which we know they are entitled and not have this issue dragging on in the courts for months, if not years, to come. I very much hope the outcome of the court case will be quick, decisive and positive and that the workers will get their money. However, we know the nature of courts and things do not always work out in the way one hopes. If a positive resolution is not arrived at next week, I hope the Minister will assist the workers. I heard her speak on local radio in Waterford recently and she empathised with the workers and acknowledged that they had taken a court case and won. She recognised the fact that an injustice had been done. Senator Cummins Maurice has rightly pointed out that a number of former workers have died and that we do not want to see a situation where more workers will die before justice is done. This is a very emotive issue for people in Waterford, the former workers in particular. There is a moral and political responsibility on the Government to make sure justice is done and the workers get their money as soon as possible.

On the Bill before us, I sit somewhere between the two Fianna Fáil contributors, in that I do not believe it goes far enough, but it is an improvement. The Bill lists six priorities to govern the distribution of a fund in the event of a scheme wind-up. Sinn Féin proposes eight priorities. Recognising that some scheme members are not eligible for the State pension or a contributory pension, our proposal sets out to ensure a minimum safety net for all scheme members through, first, purchasing the requisite contributions record for a State pension for all scheme members who did not have such a record. Second, we would protect those on low pensions and with low pension expectations. Third, we would look at the age-related portion of current and former members' benefits. On the fourth, fifth and sixth priorities, we would continue the distribution back and forth across the retirement divide in an income-linked manner. This means that once we had ensured existing pensioners had a full State pension of €12,000, plus his or her full occupational pension benefit of up to €12,000, we would immediately turn to the protection of future pensioners. This has to be about protection for existing, as well as future, pensioners. This would be a fairer distribution than the one proposed by the Government in the Bill.

The Bill will bring about an improvement in the current position which can leave workers who have accrued future pension entitlements with little or nothing. Anything which improves this must be welcomed. However, my party genuinely believes the Bill still does not get the balance right. Fundamental inequalities have been left unaddressed. In order to protect high-end, gold-plated pensions, workers approaching retirement age will remain woefully unprotected. In October 2011 the Minister suggested a more equitable style of pension reform and I find it amazing that after two years in government she seems to have been won over by her Fine Gael colleagues and is now just tinkering at the edges instead of implementing fundamental reforms. The Government is now stating the pension levy will be used to fund shortfalls in a case of double insolvency. However, as the levy has already been allocated to meet the Exchequer deficit, is this a case of double accounting? That is one of the practices that got us into the mess we are in. I give some credit to the Government for improving the situation, but I do not believe the Bill goes far enough in achieving the appropriate balance.

I appeal to the Minister to do what she can to help those former Waterford Crystal workers who should be protected.

I welcome the Minister and the legislation. I listened to the previous speaker, and while I do not disagree with his comments on the former workers at Waterford Crystal, I appreciate this legislation is not the final set of proposals on the broader issue of pensions and pension schemes and I look forward to further progress in this regard. Senator Cullinane mentioned the Minister's views and statements in October 2011 and all of us must have a mature debate on pensions, be they occupational pensions or State pensions, over the coming years. We must consider charting a different course on the concept of pensions, pension entitlement and pension funding.

The majority of people take out a pension to provide security and certainty in their older years. Many situations have changed vis-à-vis the elderly and pensions in recent years. People now wish to work longer and lifestyle and health changes ensure, thankfully, people live longer. We must try to reflect this new lifestyle and life choice in our debate on pensions. The Minister's primary pension responsibility is with regard to the more conventional social welfare pension and this is why it is so important she has fought successfully in Cabinet to maintain a reasonable standard of pension for elderly people. Our baseline of defence and argument should be that every person upon reaching retirement age, be it 66 today or 67 or 68 in years to come, is guaranteed a reasonable State pension. Alongside this reasonable guarantee of a State pension we must try to ensure our elderly, or shall I say our mature citizens because I do not believe people of 67, 68, or 69 consider themselves to be elderly, have certainty about health care, housing and long-term nursing home care if required. This must also become part of the equation.

When I think of the people who through generations invested virtually all of their spare resources in pension schemes, expecting particular bonanzas on reaching retirement age and then finding the returns are so modest, I ask myself how the money could have been spent in an alternative way in homes and on families. This must become part of the argument also. Occupational pensions and private pensions taken out must be protected, but if we can guarantee a standard and certainty of living for our mature and older citizens it would be a very positive beginning. If we can tell the elderly, who are not the 66 or 67 year olds, that if necessary their housing needs will be looked after by the State, their health services are guaranteed, whether one is a medical card patient or holds private health insurance, and if the time comes nursing home or sheltered accommodation needs will be provided, it would remove many of the fears, doubts and concerns which have obliged many people to pour huge resources into pension schemes which have turned out to be very different from what they would have expected.

I know my few words are not particularly appropriate to this legislation but I hope they are appropriate to a broader debate which all of us need to have as a society on behalf of mature and elderly people. We are speaking about people who in some cases seem to be reaching a disappointing conclusion to their pension investments. The Minister is attempting to put in place a balanced solution which will not satisfy everybody and will have pain as well as gain. We must be realistic, and it is as good as the Minister, the Oireachtas and the taxpayer can do under the circumstances. In so far as it goes, I wholeheartedly welcome it and I encourage the Minister to restart what may have been her initiative of 2011. It will not be in the Minister's time, my time or in the time of anybody in the House where this thinking will come to pass and come to really matter, but it will happen in 20, 25, 30 or 40 years and we need to begin thinking and talking a new dialogue on pensions, retirement, certainty and security.

I look forward to Committee Stage of the Bill. I hope the issues of concern raised by my colleagues on all sides of the House can be taken on board. I look forward to hearing the Minister's thinking on other ways of ensuring certainty and security for the growing number of people who live into their 70s, 80s and 90s. This is sometimes seen by the Department and the Department of Health as a problem, but we should see it as something to welcome and embrace although it requires new planning and thinking and a new approach.

As Senator Bradford stated there are a number of reasons pension funds in Ireland got into trouble. Most importantly, significant promises and commitments were made by employers in good faith about levels of pension coverage when people retired but, unfortunately, the Irish economy crashing was a key contributor to very difficult performances by pension funds. Another issue is that funds established 30 or 40 years ago were for people who, when they retired on pension, may not have had a life expectancy of much in excess of 15 years but this has all changed dramatically. Some of the promises made were large and significant, but as time has passed we have had a huge increase both in the number of pensioners, who if they are in a scheme are all contributing, and in the longevity of the pensioners, and the fund was never intended to cover this level of longevity.

In fairness to most trustees and members of most schemes, and employers and trade unions in particular, enormous efforts have been made, including in the ESB, over a prolonged period of time to address the gaps and deficits which have arisen. The Bill addresses very difficult issues of equity and fairness which have been under very careful consideration for some time. The legal issues involved are incredibly complex. The issues date back over most of the past decade and they were raised by Fianna Fáil in the 2007 Green Paper on pensions and the 2010 national pensions framework. As far as Fianna Fáil was concerned, the economy was booming in 2007 but it did absolutely nothing much in this regard, except very shortly after the economy was hit by the bank guarantee in 2008 it decided to suspend the funding standard, no doubt in the hope things would turn around because there were always green shoots around the corner. When Fianna Fáil is being critical of legislation being brought forward now it must explain to us in all honesty the long decade in which it did nothing but suggested everything was wonderful.

It is not the case the levy on direct contribution schemes will assist defined benefit underfunding. The levy was set and established by the Minister for Finance prior to the previous general election at the request of significant sections of the pensions industry. Let us not forget it was the pensions industry which came up with proposals for the levy. A bit like people in the former Government party, there is a little amnesia on the part of those who suggested the levy. It was actually the pensions industry, accompanied by very large advertisements.

In fairness, Fine Gael adopted that policy in its manifesto and went to the people with it.

In his recent Budget Statement the Minister for Finance highlighted the fact that the 0.6% levy, in place on all schemes since 2010, would terminate at the end of 2014. He also announced that a separate levy of 0.15% would apply to all pension fund assets to continue to help to fund the jobs initiative, including the continuation of the reduced 9% VAT rate in the hospitality sector, for which I have heard much praise in the Chamber, and to make provision for potential State liabilities which might emerge from pre-existing or future pension fund difficulties. I welcome that second indication from him in the context of this Bill.

The trustees of defined benefit pension schemes have a fiduciary duty under trust law and the Pensions Acts to act in the best interests of all scheme members. There are three kinds - pensioners, those on an existing pension and active members currently paying in. This difficulty was highlighted. Somebody who is 65 or 67 years and has retired is receiving full benefits, whereas without the protection of this Bill, somebody who is 62 or 63 years and within shouting distance of retiring could be left with absolutely nothing. The Bill is being brought forward to balance that position. There are regulatory safeguards and oversight by the Pensions Board in the case of restructuring. Before the trustees make such an application, they have to consult the employer, the scheme member and any person receiving benefits from the scheme, and the authorised trade union representing scheme members in advance of an application to the Pensions Board. It is very important that there be all-round consultation with the different stakeholder interests. The Pensions Board will have discretion as to whether it should issue a direction following an application by the trustees.

I am considering in some detail the OECD review of the Irish pensions system and will come back to the Government with proposals. This will include proposals to gradually achieve universal pensions coverage, with a particular focus on those on low incomes and those in atypical employment where they are moving from employment to employment. As Senator Terry Brennan pointed out, defined benefit schemes were set up in the days when a boy joined the ESB at 16 years of age and expected to retire at 66, having served his time and moved up through the ranks of the company. However, very few of us now know people who take up employment at 16 years of age and are still in the same job at 66; therefore, we have to bring forward arrangements to meet the changes in employment to ensure low-paid workers, including women who may be in and out of the labour force, and other atypical workers have adequate pension coverage.

To answer Senator Hildegarde Naughton's question, in the case of a single insolvency, an individual on €40,000 and subject to a reduction of 10% will have the reduction applied to the total pension of €40,000, that is, €4,000. However, this will be subject to the funding level of the scheme. The better funded the scheme is, the less that will apply. An individual on a pension of €60,000, where the State pension accounts for €12,000 of it, will be subject to a reduction of 10% on €48,000. I re-emphasise that the State pension, contributory and non-contributory, is not affected in any way by this legislation. It is important to clarify that aspect.

In respect of the indexing of pensions, future benefit entitlements will be calculated by trustees on a scheme by scheme basis in accordance with the trustee rules applying to a scheme. Senators Fiach Mac Conghail and Jim Walsh both raised that issue. Legislation in 2009 gave trustees the option of not paying those affected by a wind-up to facilitate a fairer distribution of funds. Post-retirement increases are provided for in about one third of schemes as per the trust arrangements of a scheme, but the 2009 legislation, brought forward by Senator Jim Walsh's party, gave trustees the option of not paying in the event of a wind-up to facilitate the distribution of funds. Perhaps the Senator might look back at this and see whether he still agrees with it.

It is now mandatory.

The new provisions include post-retirement increases if they form part of the figure of 50% for expected benefits in a double insolvency, or if payment of the increases is the final point in the order of priorities in the case of a single or double insolvency.

On retrospection, based on advice received, the legislation will apply to any scheme which is wound up after the legislation has been enacted and will not apply retrospectively. It is important to have regard to the negotiations undertaken and agreements between the parties in a wind-up. Generally, where schemes have been wound up, the process to date has been managed through dialogue between the stakeholders, the trustees, the employers and the members, whereby efforts are made to reach agreement on the steps to be taken when a scheme is no longer considered viable and the decision to wind up is made. This involves negotiating arrangements which are unique and particular to each case in terms of the benefits the beneficiaries will ultimately receive and the substitution of the defined benefit pension model with other pension arrangements such as the defined contribution or a hybrid model.

In regulating schemes to a better funding level we have been concentrating on ensuring measures are put in place to make sure schemes have sufficient assets to meet the pension promises made and that this is done through regulation and implementation of the funding standard which the last Government relaxed. I reinstated it some time ago with a view to having pension schemes make sustainable arrangements in respect of the promises made to members. Responsibility rests with the employer, as the sponsor of a scheme, and the trustees for ensuring the scheme is properly funded and managed. Many Irish pension schemes were very unfortunate and many comments have been made on this issue by pensions experts on the imbalance in equities and the poor returns from certain types of investment and on the general dislocation of global financial markets. The changes needed to encourage underfunded schemes will be aimed at seeking funding of about 70% of that required in the funding standard which the Bill seeks to strengthen.

The key provisions of the Bill address difficult issues of equity and fairness. The aim of the Bill is to ensure a fairer system for workers and sufficient protection for pensioners, while allowing employers to tackle their pension problems. Representatives of employers, employees and the pensions industry have all been encouraging action in this area for some time. I am heartened that there has been a broad welcome for the measures contained within the Bill. We would all have wished that the pensions industry in Ireland and pension funds had not entered into the dreadful crisis in 2008, but it did happen and we are now trying to ensure as much stability as possible, as well as sustainability, for those pension schemes that remain in place. There were 2,500 pension schemes in existence 20 years ago; only ten years later there were 1,000 fewer. Throughout this period there has been a dramatic fall in the number of defined benefit schemes for many reasons.

The process for distributing the assets of underfunded defined benefit schemes is very complex. It is a very sensitive issue and terribly important to people as they grow older and come to rely on a pension as their major income. The concept of intergenerational risk-sharing would suggest that maintaining the status quo, whereby people of working age can potentially lose their entire benefits before scheme pensioners make any contribution, is not sustainable. At its most fundamental level, while a good degree of priority should be retained for the pensioners who are older, it is also fair that some measure of protection be afforded to all members of defined benefit pension schemes.

As I pointed out earlier, there is a €12,000 limit, plus, in the majority of cases, people have an entitlement to roughly the same amount through the State retirement pension. That brings the amount to €24,000, and the average industrial wage is in the region of €36,000. Somebody with a combination of the two would be in a relatively good position in terms of a pension on retirement. I wish it were more. If we bring in some of the proposals made by the OECD and others, we will, I hope, start to extend coverage on a more intensive basis, particularly to low-paid workers. That is very important.

I thank all of the Senators who spoke on the Bill. In conclusion, the Bill addresses the State's obligations in a double insolvency, but also goes further. A fundamental aim of the Bill is to encourage schemes, through regulatory measures, to move from an underfunded position towards an appropriately funded position and further minimise the risk to the members, pensioners and taxpayers. People need to have decent incomes in retirement and it is important that occupational pensions be viable and sustainable.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 28 November 2013.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

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