The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on general scheme of Seanad Electoral (University Members) (Amendment) Bill 2014, to be taken at 3.45 p.m. and adjourned not later than 5.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed six minutes.
Order of Business
On behalf of Fianna Fáil, I pay my deepest sympathy to the family of Christine Buckley who passed away this morning. As all of us will know from the work she did on behalf of survivors of abuse and her establishment of the Aislinn Adolescent Addiction Centre, she worked tirelessly. It was sad to hear of her passing. I express my condolences and those of the Fianna Fáil group in the Seanad to Christine's husband Donal and their children, Darragh, Conor and Cliona. I hope she has now found rest. I also hope we do not forget the work she did to improve services for children, improve the way we look after people who have been abused and ensure that such terrible events will not happen in this country in the future.
I wish to comment on the Order of Business for today and this week. I do not direct my criticism at the Leader, but it is pathetic that we are having statements on a Bill that has not even been introduced. It is pathetic that today we will have statements on the general scheme of the Seanad Electoral (University Members) (amendment) Bill 2014, with no discussion of the Bill and no Bill having been published. Tomorrow we are scheduled only to discuss Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge 2010-2030 and a Private Members' motion and there is no business on Thursday. The blame for this should not be laid at the Leader's door.
With regard to the level of business in the Oireachtas which comprises the Dáil and the Seanad, I remind Members that since January - the turn of the year - only one Bill has been published and introduced by the Government. Last week in the Dáil there were three days of statements, which will be continued this week, and no legislation, which is no way to run the Oireachtas and Parliament. I put the Leader on notice that I know what is going to happen later in this term. We will have a glut of legislation and Ministers acting like the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government who published and introduced six Bills in the last two weeks of the last term and it was only with the Leader's intervention that we were able to ensure there was proper debate and scrutiny of the legislation. I am not making a party political point.
This is a political point about the operation of the Oireachtas. I understand from officials that no further legislation will come to either the Dáil or the Seanad until the end of March. It is a joke. We will have a situation in which the Leader will be under pressure in this House, the Taoiseach, the Chief Whip and other Ministers will be under pressure in the Dáil and we will have the most prevalent use of the guillotine to shut down debates in the Dáil. I thank the Leader for not allowing this to happen to the same degree in the Seanad. I will conclude on this because this is a matter for the Cathaoirleach's office, too.
Neither House will sit next week owing to the St. Patrick's Day celebrations. I understand that and it is fine. The Taoiseach and Ministers have an important role to play abroad. What have we got the following week and the week after that? It is a joke, as we have been saying. Last week we endeavoured to seek debates on some important ministerial orders. We in the Seanad will have to stand up for ourselves with regard to moving the legislation on the Order Paper which Members from all parties have produced.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Why should the Senator have to ask a question?
Does the Leader know when we will have legislation to deal with in this House? My party has eight or nine Bills on the Order Paper. If the Leader affords us time, we will move them forward.
The Senator is way over time.
I know, but the way it is I would have loads of time. I could talk all day on Thursday because we will not be here at all.
We have only a certain amount of time for the Order of Business. It was agreed to by the House.
I understand that. I am trying to make a point about the business we have not been conducting, not just here in the Seanad but also in the Dáil, since we came back in January. I remind Members when they return to their parliamentary parties to tell their own Whips and the Chief Whip, Deputy Paul Kehoe, that one Bill since January in the Seanad and the Dáil is not the way to do business.
The Senator is way over time.
On a point of order, it is not necessary to ask a question. This is something that has grown. Would the Cathaoirleach be kind enough to point to something in the Constitution or Standing Orders-----
It was always the practice in the House that one would ask a question of the Leader.
It was not always the practice.
The Leader responded to questions asked by the House.
The former Senator Joe O'Toole consistently made that point. I do not intend to accept that ruling and it is not a good one.
I will conclude on this and thank the Cathaoirleach for his forbearance. The Leader has been trying as best he can to ensure work is done in the Seanad. In June and July this year we will be inundated with legislation that will not be scrutinised properly. That is where mistakes are made. I ask the Leader to bring my deep concern with the way business is being scheduled back to the Chief Whip.
The Senator is way over time.
Whether he cares is another matter. The Seanad does a good job.
The Senator is way over time.
I could probably stand here and talk until 5 p.m. because it makes no difference.
I have to operate within Standing Orders. We have 55 minutes for the Order of Business.
Can I ask the Cathaoirleach a question?
We are on the Order of Business. The Leader answers questions put in the House.
Has he ever seen the House schedule statements on a Bill that has not even been published? It is a joke.
The Senator has gone over six minutes.
To be fair to Senator Darragh O'Brien, we are all concerned about the scheduling of business. Last week on International Women's Day, Senator Ivana Bacik and I made a very important point on behalf of all Members of this House that it was not acceptable to any of us that we had had weeks with barely any business to do and then at the end of the year we would sit until midnight or 1 a.m. I also raised the point that the Leader was very conscious of this and, as we would all agree, had been very responsible in representing all interests in the House.
We all agree.
The Committee on Procedure and Privileges has been asked to examine how we order our business to make the Seanad more effective.
We are beholden to the Government on legislation.
I accept that, but before the Government took office-----
The Senator is not in any hurry. What is the point?
-----we had 14 years of Fianna Fáil leadership when business was ordered in exactly the same fashion.
Was the Senator here? How does she know? It was not ordered.
Excuse me, Senator.
I ask the Senator to tell me when a Bill was published in just three months. She is talking through her hat and she knows it.
I ask the Senator to please allow Senator Aideen Hayden to make her point.
The bottom line is that Senator Darragh O'Brien is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
The Senator is talking without showing manners or experience of what happened.
We can trust the Leader.
I trust him impeccably, but that is not the question.
He has proved to be very effective in representing all of our interests at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I know that he is excellent at doing so.
We will have a further discussion on how the business of the House is ordered, in which respect I very much trust the Leader.
I extend sympathy to the family of Christine Buckley who was a friend of my extended family. I met her at a wedding last August. Her passing is very sad. She should be remembered and respected for her contribution to Irish society and the way she stood up for people who were abused in our society.
On a more positive note, I welcome the decision made by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council last night. By an overwhelming majority it decided to accept the business improvement district scheme and have it introduced in Dún Laoghaire. We have talked about the fate of rural towns on a number of occasion in the House. Many people do not realise there are areas of urban Ireland, of which Dún Laoghaire is one, in which there has been a serious number of business closures. One third of the main street of Dún Laoghaire is boarded up; therefore, it is great to see that the business community has agreed to the initiative proposed. I would welcome a review of the business improvement district scheme. Perhaps we might have a debate on initiatives that could help small towns that are struggling.
I agree with my colleague, Senator Darragh O'Brien. While I exonerate the Leader, Occam's razor which forbids hypothetical discussion of what is non-existent comes into play. There is simply no Bill; therefore, providing for a debate is complete nonsense. It is a token of the Government's bad faith, not of the Leader of the House. The Government is not intent on introducing any real reform of the House. It will tinker with the university seats and leave it at that, which is unacceptable.
I also extend words of sympathy to the family of Christine Buckley. I did not know the family, but I have met her daughter. Christine was a very remarkable woman. She had a toughness which she certainly needed to sustain her campaign. In later years certainly, she was a very sharp dresser. She was a glamorous and remarkable woman. We should also remember the part played by the late Mary Raftery in making Christine's story known. She was a very remarkable television person.
Yesterday the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, made a very important statement in Cork on fluoridation. He announced that an international panel of experts would be established to inquire impartially into the question of fluoridation. I know that Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan has raised the issue consistently in the other House, but we have also raised it in this House. It was raised here after I had unearthed John Gormley's suppressed report on the scientific evidence. The Minister made a commitment to do something about the matter and he has now lived up to his commitment. This is a good day for Seanad Éireann because we all did our job in raising this major issue in the public arena.
Yesterday marked the 55th anniversary of the invasion of Tibet by China. Traditionally, Ireland has held a most honourable position on Tibet. Although Frank Aiken was responsible for introducing Red China to the United Nations, he insisted on the independence of Tibet, a decision which has never been reversed by either House of the Oireachtas. Naturally enough, the Department of Foreign Affairs, now the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, slid away and nastily accepted the absorption of the remarkable country of Tibet. It is different from China in ethnicity, race, religion, geography, approach to life and everything else, but look at the devastation China has wreaked on it.
If I may finish - I feel very strongly about this - it is important that people like the Dalai Lama be supported because they show a peaceful way and a way of respect for the environment. Those in Tibet are not even allowed to learn their own language. There are appeals from schoolchildren to be allowed to learn their own language. Some 126 people have burned themselves to death. I am ending on this point and I am very grateful for the Cathaoirleach's gracious indulgence. I learned yesterday that the spouse of one of the people mentioned who had immolated themselves - I think it was the husband of a woman who was a nun - was being charged with her murder. He did nothing. This utter disrespect for human rights and the rights of the Tibetan people, their culture, identity and religion should be discussed. I ask the Leader if we can, please, have a debate on Tibet.
It would be appropriate for the Government to consider farming out the drafting of legislation because it appears there is a problem in fast-tracking legislation. Many Departments have a programme with regard to what legislation they need to get through. I ask the Leader to consider the issue in respect of the initial drafting of legislation, not its final drafting. At least it would have items moved along and fast-tracked.
Farm it out to whom?
Senator Colm Burke is looking after his own profession again.
Senator Colm Burke to continue without interruption, please.
Jobs for the boys - self-interest again.
I am putting forward a constructive proposal. If Senators do not want to hear a constructive proposal, they should not bother listening.
Senator Feargal Quinn managed to produce seven or eight Bills and they are all constipated.
Senator Colm Burke to continue without interruption, please.
In fairness, the drafting of legislation is not something that can be done overnight; it takes quite an amount of time. As one who has been involved in the drafting of two pieces of legislation, I can see it is time to examine the issue and deal with it in a constructive way. I say to the Leader that this is a matter we should take up with Ministers and individual Departments to see whether important legislation can be fast-tracked and brought into this and the other House with a view to moving forward with the legislative programme.
Do it pro bono.
I have a very good idea in regard to using up time in this Chamber, which would be valuable. Our colleagues in the US Senate last night had an all-nighter to discuss climate change to try to make a difference. They stayed up all night to debate the issue. I am not suggesting we stay up all night-----
I am sorry; I am being very serious. I am talking about what our colleagues in the US Senate discussedf for all of last night - climate change - in an effort to get people to stop laughing about it, as those on the Government benches have just done, and to take the issue very seriously. As we have a day on Thursday with nothing to do, why not open up on Thursday and emulate our colleagues in the US Senate by having a full-scale debate on climate change. We have seen the effects of climate change in recent weeks and months, with extraordinary weather patterns causing flooding, damage and devastation throughout the country. We have seen strange weather patterns in previous years also, with very cold weather during the winter and very warm weather last summer. This is causing huge damage to society and it is causing worse damage in poorer parts of the world. We have an obligation to emulate our colleagues and to look at what they are doing, and we have a free day when we should be working. If we had an all-day debate on climate change we could move that debate forward, and perhaps parliaments around the world will copy the example of the US Senate and have that debate. It would be a worthwhile way of spending our day.
Never before have I come across an issue so divisive as the prospect of the development of joint industrial wind farms across the country from County Mayo to County Laois and every county in between. We thought we had some respite on reading newspaper reports on Friday that the intergovernmental agreement on which these industrial wind farms were predicated had fallen through, but it has led only to greater anxiety and distress. Families are having feuds, neighbours are not talking to each other and communities are split down the middle. That is wrong and it need not happen.
We can produce renewable energy on a sustainable and socially acceptable basis for our own needs and to create jobs and a secure energy supply with a proper and balanced portfolio. However, what we were told and guaranteed by the Department, the Minister, developers and State agencies was that if there was no agreement with the United Kingdom, these wind farms would collapse and evaporate.
The Senator is to raise a matter on a similar topic on the Adjournment.
Yes, but the matter has become even more pressing because we learned today that the Taoiseach is in the United Kingdom meeting Prime Minister Cameron to give mouth-to-mouth to this dead-duck plan.
"Isn't that what you tend to do during an election?"
I believed it was dead in the water.
(Interruptions).
The Senator can raise that issue with the Minister tonight.
We believed we could sleep easy in our beds, but now the Taoiseach is trying to revive and breathe new life into this agreement by giving it mouth-to-mouth with Prime Minister Cameron.
The Senator can raise the issue with the Minister tonight.
(Interruptions).
I have a question and it is very straightforward.
"Isn't that what you tend to do during an election?"
Senator John Whelan to continue, without interruption.
Will the Leader confirm in one way or another whether this intergovernmental agreement is gone for good - if so, good riddance - or has just been shelved so as to be dusted down and revived in a few months?
The Senator can put that issue to the Minister tonight.
Communities want to know the truth and we need to know it.
I welcome the statement made by the Minister for Finance in Brussels last night on the warnings by the distinguished economist Professor Morgan Kelly. The Minister said the economist must be taken seriously. He was correct in the past when nobody else was. If the Central Bank were to make contact and gain access to some of the data underpinning the professor's speech, it would be helpful. This is my experience having had Professor Kelly as a student some time ago. During the period in which the Irish banking system was laying the seeds for the destruction that followed in 2008, namely, between 1998 and 2005, it increased lending by €192 billion, of which 1% went to manufacturing and 0.5% to agriculture. Some 81.5% was for personal lending, real estate and financial intermediation. ISME has warned that because property-obsessed banks lent to the small and medium-sized industries on the basis of property, they face the Armageddon that Professor Kelly has drawn to our attention. We need banks that have an interest in manufacturing and agriculture and they need to stop creating property bubbles. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Finance to come to the House to speak about a new banking system that is based on the productive capacity of the economy, not on property bubbles? Professor Kelly has issued a warning on a property bubble and I am delighted the Minister is taking it on board.
There is so much on the agenda today that is so important. I support the call for a debate on the comments of Professor Morgan Kelly because the matter is serious. Some 95% of all working people are employed in small and medium-sized enterprises. If what the professor is saying is true, it must be heeded. Considering that there was a debate on this for an hour and a half, what was in the news represented only pinpoints. I would like a full debate on the matter to get to the bottom of what the professor is saying. This is the right place to have such a debate because the House has been noted for having good debates.
A Senator referred to the fluoridation of water. I believe an article in the Irish Examiner stated the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, had agreed to a review by international experts. I would like a new and full debate on this issue. If there is to be a review, we want to be sure we have the facts. Some 15 years ago, as a member of South Dublin County Council, I tabled a motion on this subject. I do not use fluoridated water and had to import a contraption from the United Kingdom that removes the fluoride. I was not prepared to take the chance. However, privileging emotion over facts can sometimes be inadvisable. I am not a scientist and do not know the facts, but I like to err on the side of caution. We seek a rational analysis.
I look forward to the debate on renewable energy; that is all I will say about it.
I thank Senator Sean D. Barrett for raising a real issue.
Sitting in the Seanad talking about the weather is not what we should be at.
The Senator tells us.
The only difficulty, as Brendan Behan said about the climate, was the weather. Regarding the 1.2 million-----
This is a serious Chamber for serious people.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell to continue, without interruption.
Fianna Fáil rained on our parade for 12 years. We are only cleaning up and bringing out a bit of sun.
This is the same Senator who says she finds it useful not to be in the Chamber.
Will the Senator, please, resume his seat?
Senator Darragh O'Brien will not talk about raining on people's parade.
Certainly not.
Some 1.2 million people work in the SME sector. Why am I meeting directors, CEOs and heads of business who are not getting working capital from the banks, are being delayed decisions, are being left for months wondering where the next wages are coming from and are waiting months for negative decisions? Why am I at the same time witnessing the devastation of rural Ireland? Did every one of us not put €3.75 billion into the banks to recapitalise them for this very purpose? I would like the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation with responsibility for small business, Deputy John Perry, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, or the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, to come to the House and tell me exactly how many small businesses have been affected, how many small businesses the banks have saved, why they have not saved them and what the banks are going to do about it.
The Minister will have to check the Senator's diary to see when she will bother turning up.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell to continue, without interruption.
Senator Sean D. Barrett might agree with me that the banks are not interested. SMEs have gone off the radar because of the great European stress test. They are all trying to clean up.
Is the Senator seeking a debate on this issue?
In time.
I would like the Minister to come to the House to tell us why the banks have not loaned to those who need it and where the money has gone. We can talk about Google and Kerry Co-op, both wonderful organisations, but we must talk about the 90,000 companies of five to eight people which will be devastated and which are being devastated by banks. I cannot tell the House about my anger about the incapability of banks, the queuing, interest rates and lack of human contact with most of us on a personal level, but we all sit here and allow them to do what they like. They are doing what they like to small businesses and somebody should stand up and stop them.
Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?
Yes, I want the Minister of State, Deputy John Perry, to come to the House to tell me the facts about what is happening with small businesses in Ireland which are the core of the economy and without whom, by the way, the banks would not exist. Let us discuss that issue as opposed to the weather, thank you, Fianna Fáil.
I thank the Senator for that incisive comment.
The Senator's stupidity knows no bounds.
I would like the Senator to withdraw that remark.
On a point of order-----
The Senator and his point of order - sit down.
I have called for a debate which would emulate a debate that finished approximately two hours ago in the US Senate and which lasted 15 hours and I have been accused of wanting to talk about the weather. The level of ignorance and lack of knowledge on that side-----
Should we follow the United States on its military powers abroad?
Please, Senator.
I thought for one minute I was listening to the radio and "Today with Sean O'Rourke" was on.
"He who calls his brother a fool shall be damned."
I have heard it all.
Senator Terry Leyden has indicated that he wants to speak.
If the Cathaoirleach would let me in, it would be great.
The Senator might not get in if he continues like that.
I support my colleague, Senator John Whelan. I agree with everything he said. The following question needs to be answered. Can we trust EirGrid and the wind energy sector?
Can we trust the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte?
Up to this we were told cables could not go underground, then we were told they could go underground. We were told the EirGrid project was not about wind, then we were told it was totally about wind. We were told the midlands project was totally for export and now that it seems to be dead in the water we are told it will go ahead. The people and I have lost trust in both organisations. There is a clear conflict of interest which is causing this serious problem. Yesterday politicians called Mr. Frank Flannery's position untenable because of perceived conflicts of interest, while at the same time we have Mr. Brendan Halligan, a Government lobbyist and a consultant with Mainstream Renewable Power, peddling wind and hot air to the Government and not concentrating on any other aspect of green energy.
Last night I attended a meeting of Roscommon and Mayo Protection, RAMP. It is the Cathaoirleach's own county. RAMP's members are not aligned with any political party. They are all decent people.
Like the Senator.
They are very worried. They have great respect for Judge Catherine McGuinness and Mr. Colm McCarthy of the expert review group, but they also believe a medical expert needs to be brought in.
They believe community groups should be able to feed into that process and I agree with them.
On my way to Dublin today I listened on radio to talk of e-cigarettes and how dangerous they might be. I have no doubt that the Government will commission a health report on e-cigarettes. Where is the report which has been commissioned on the effects of electric and magnetic fields associated with 400 kV lines near people's homes and their back gardens in which their children play and near playgrounds? The Government does not want to hear that there is a possibility that overhead 400 kV lines will endanger lives. The politicians who told us that the midlands project was designed for the export of wind energy need to come into this House to tell us, if it is designed for the export of wind energy only, why consideration is being given to going ahead with it, as it makes no sense. The reason we need to know is we have lost faith and trust in EirGrid and the wind energy sector.
Senators John Kelly and John Whelan had better note that the Minister, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, said after the general election that one only said those things during elections. He is now saying it will not happen until 23 May when the European elections will be over and after the Labour Party has been decimated in the local elections. He is trying to deflect-----
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
I do. Do not believe the Minister when it comes to wind energy or any other source of energy. Members opposite are saying this themselves because they know he speaks with a forked tongue.
If the Deputy's party had spoken up when-----
Senator Terry Leyden to continue, without interruption.
Will the Leader indicate how many Senators will be nominated to the group to be set up to deal with the so-called banking inquiry? Will the Seanad be represented on it? When will the group be established? Will the letter of September 2008 from Jean-Claude Trichet be published? Who has it and where is it? I have a good idea where it is. Does the Government have it?
What letter?
I challenge it to publish it. It was used to blackmail the late Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowen into agreeing to the broad bank guarantee which was dictated by the European Central Bank. Jean-Claude Trichet is responsible for it.
That is absolutely right.
The letter should be published.
It should.
I challenge those who have the letter to publish it and be damned. I have an indication as to who has it. There are copies available. I can tell Members for a start that it is in the Department of Finance and that the Minister, Deputy Michael Noonan, should publish it. No banking inquiry can take place until it is published. A gun was put to the heads of the late Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowen and if any one of the Members opposite had been there, he or she would have given into that threat also because it would have meant total disaster for the banking industry in Ireland and all of the multinational companies here would have been in crisis. Even John-Claude Trichet tried to deny his involvement, but it was sheer blackmail and he was responsible for it on behalf of the European Central Bank. Let this come out in the inquiry-----
On a point of order, does the Senator have proof of this since he does not have the letter?
Let it be said, without the letter being published-----
The Senator is way over time.
I appeal from this House to those who have copies of the letter to publish it now before the inquiry takes place.
Will the Senator, please, resume his seat? He has made his point.
The inquiry will be meaningless without the letter.
On a point of order, does the Senator have proof of blackmail since he does not have the letter?
That is not a point of order; it is a political judgment.
It is a very good point of order.
I have read with great interest recent comments made by the Master of the National Maternity Hospital, Dr. Rhona Mahony, who expressed the view that a lack of investment in education resulted in cycles of intergenerational and socio-economic disadvantage. In a similar vein, Professor Morgan Kelly, in his very interesting views on potential negative impacts on the SME sector, to which the Minister for Finance has responded, has indicated that Irish universities are no longer able to give a young person a good education at a reasonable cost. He has said that in his experience, when the country was apparently awash with money, growth in the university sector did not take place in academia but in administration. He has indicated that many of his colleagues in his department left UCD to take up more lucrative offers abroad and that administrators now outnumber lecturers by two to one. I call on colleagues in all parties to agree that the Seanad should facilitate a proper committee-style debate on the future of third level education.
It should be done without preconditions or preconceived notions about how best to fund and structure the sector. It could be the first of many debates on various subjects and we should be in a position to call experts before us to give evidence. This House is supposed to be a forum that permits deeper and more considered analysis of matters. Perhaps the Leader might consider my suggestion which I would be happy to discuss further with him.
Yesterday the Taoiseach very proudly opened the Irish world heritage centre in Manchester and spoke to The Irish Post about it. The Government has allegedly already given upwards of £1 million to the centre and plans to give more. I ask the Leader to arrange a discussion with the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht on our education, archaeology, architecture, inland waterways, walled towns, landscape, hearts and souls. That is what our Irish heritage is. The budget for the Heritage Council has been cut from €22 million to €5 million. Did everyone hear the list I recited? I am speaking about our hearts and souls, what future generations of children will touch and feel of the history of the country. I am grateful that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has taken up the suggestion Senators made last year to provide €5 million towards creating jobs in the heritage sector. We could upskill people in the construction industry to restore beautiful old buildings. The Taoiseach spoke about giving £1 million or more to the Irish world heritage centre in Manchester, but I am here to speak about Irish heritage centres in Ireland. Giving €5 million for them is an embarrassment.
Senators David Norris and Cáit Keane spoke about fluoridation. Now that we are charging citizens to be self-medicated through the water supply, can we have another debate on the matter? There is more science on the subject. We are charging citizens for water, but we are pouring in fluoride. I have no problem if we want to put fluoride in toothpaste or with using salt which people can choose to ingest, but this matter should be debated in the Seanad.
I am embarrassed for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. He made a brilliant announcement on wind energy generation last year, but it has now fallen to pieces. We should think carefully and ensure everything is in place before making such public announcements.
To take up Senator Mary Ann O'Brien's comment on wind energy, the only announcement made last year was on a memorandum of understanding between this country and Britain on exports of wind energy. Last Friday the United Kingdom withdrew from discussions on progressing the memorandum to an intergovernmental agreement. That has caused confusion in local communities because the previous Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources advised the public that the expansion of the grid was necessary to advance the export of wind energy. As there is now no agreement on exporting wind energy, there is no market and there will be no wind farms. The question that now arises is whether EirGrid will be allowed to spend almost €4 billion of the taxpayers' money to build a grid that is no longer necessary. Communities across the country have been so outraged and upset by EirGrid's proposals that 35,000 people made submissions to the company. Will these communities get an answer to this question or will we continue in the vein of talking from both sides of our mouths? I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister to come to the House to provide clarity on this issue.
When will the next meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges take place to discuss the Government's proposals for Seanad reform? I know we will have a discussion on the issue this afternoon, but I would like to hear what is happening at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and what the Government's proposals are.
It was interesting to hear Senator Hildegarde Naughton speak about education. We have spent a lot of money investing in education over the years, but I refer to a more recent development, namely, the national induction programme for teachers which I believe is a real problem for us. We have educated a fairly large number of teachers who have received degrees and qualifications after four years. Many of them could not get a job so they have had to go somewhere to get one, including Canada, Spain and elsewhere. The Teaching Council requires that one must become fully qualified which means one must attend something like ten weekend courses. Someone in Spain, Canada or elsewhere trying to earn a living must come back here to attend courses. As far as I can see, these courses having nothing to do with education but with handling things such as what one does if one comes in late for work. We must recognise the situation of students who qualified, got their degrees and thought they were fully qualified teachers but who have not been able to get a job in Ireland and have to go somewhere else. Now they cannot become fully qualified because of a new qualification insisted upon by the Teaching Council. I think it is called a newly qualified teacher programme. We must find some way to resolve this issue. I will write to the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, with the details, but it is something the Leader could also raise with the Minister.
The Committee on Procedure and Privileges wrote to the group leaders looking for proposals on Seanad reform. There is no date set yet, but it looks as if the next meeting will be around 26 March.
I thank the Cathaoirleach.
I join colleagues in extending our sympathy to the family of the late Christine Buckley. Her bravery in bringing institutional abuse to the fore must be admired by every Member of the House. She succeeded in helping so many deal with it in the past few years.
I support the call for a debate on the fluoridation of water. As I travelled to the Seanad this morning, I heard two so-called experts on radio. I was deeply concerned that as a result of the utterings of one of them, many people would be quite worried about the health of their children. The sooner we get some experts to come to this House to put the record straight on the dangers or otherwise of the fluoridation of water the better.
We had a debate on the situation in Syria and the Central Africa Republic recently, but given that we may have some time available to us in the coming weeks, the Tánaiste, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, or the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello, should come to the House. The reports emanating from Syria in recent days are that the Syrian armed forces are using the starvation of civilians as a weapon of war and that people are being starved into submission. In recent days the director of the World Food Programme said the agency would need €309 million between now and May and that food aid operations were cut by 20% in March owing to budget shortages. An even greater humanitarian crisis is emerging in Syria. The United Nations is starting a formal inquiry into human rights abuses in the Central African Republic. There are reports of genocide, serious atrocities and human rights abuse there. It would be appropriate for us to keep this issue very much on the agenda of Seanad Éireann and the Tánaiste or the Minister of State to come to the House as a matter of urgency.
I share the concern of Senator Darragh O'Brien, leader of the Fianna Fáil group, regarding the lack of legislation, and take issue with remarks that during the 14 years of Fianna Fáil government we carried on business in much the same way. I refute this as someone who was a Member during that period and during the final three years of the rainbow coalition. I do not have a recollection of such a lack of legislative business in the first three months of a year. I cannot, nor do I not wish to, point the finger at the Leader. He can only deal with the legislation that comes from the other House and very little is coming from there. However, will he continue to encourage Ministers to initiate legislation in the House? We have a proud and long record of initiating legislation here. The more far-sighted Ministers take legislation in the House first because they know it will be dissected and analysed in a much more timely and non-contentious fashion than in the Lower House.
I assume Senator Mary Ann O'Brien was not referring to an either-or scenario in respect of the funding of the Irish Heritage Centre in Manchester. I do not think she meant there should be funding here instead. I echo her complimentary remarks on the opening of the heritage centre. I know not only the centre but also many of the principals involved, particularly Michael Forde from County Mayo, who has been the leading light on a project that goes back 20 years, which successive Governments have sympathetically supported. In practical terms, the £1 million mentioned was allocated several years ago. This is a great day for the Irish in Manchester. The original site for the heritage centre was toxic and it was in the ownership of Manchester City Council, but such was the strong influence of the Irish community in the city that the council handed over the site on which the centre will be developed gratis. It is a wonderful achievement and it is a testament to the work of Michael Forde and his hard-working committee. I hope the Government will continue to support this project. The fact that the Taoiseach was present yesterday says a great deal about this.
Will consideration be given to a debate on wave energy in the overall context of energy policy? The reason I raise it is that the Irish Independent has again highlighted an issue with fracking, as it did last week. It devoted two pages yesterday to the potential for wave energy and the significant investment that is being made. Will the Leader consider debating a report published by committee C of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, of which I am proud to be a member under the chairmanship of Deputy Jack Wall? The report focuses on the potential of wave energy and it issued to both the British and Irish Governments in the latter part of last year.
When the sun shines it usually puts people in good form, but it seems to have put fire in the bellies of Members on both sides of the House. Then again, a little passion is no harm.
I have just come from the Mansion House where the Neurological Alliance of Ireland launched a survey it carried out entitled "Living with a Neurological Condition in Ireland". It will make grim reading for Members and I ask all of them to read it because it contains important findings which have a bearing on everybody suffering with a neurological condition. Will the Leader arrange a debate on the survey and on the progress of the implementation of the national neuro-rehabilitation strategy which is due to be published? A group comprising all stakeholders was set up and an executive and clinical leaders were appointed. They are working on the implementation of the strategy, but it has been ongoing for a long time.
It is time to push on with this strategy. There is so much in this report and the strategy to be discussed that we need a stand-alone debate. It is not enough to say the Minister will be coming here next week to discuss another issue. If he is coming in to discuss one issue we cannot divert him and bring up what we want to bring up. Let us have a stand-alone debate in due course.
I agree with Senator Mooney, it is great to see a bit of passion in the House. I welcome it. I learned with regret this morning of the passing of Christine Buckley. She was a courageous and tireless campaigner on behalf of the victims of institutional abuse. She was inspired by a fight to get justice for the people wronged in these places. In July 2012 when we debated the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Bill, she was in the Visitors Gallery. I was happy then to have the opportunity to meet her because I said at the time that what happened in these schools was Ireland’s Holocaust. The schools were nothing short of concentration camps in which innocent children were beaten, raped, tortured and abused. What happened to children in these homes stayed with them throughout their lives and continues to affect the survivors and their families. There are thousands of them here and abroad. I have met them living on the streets in London. I know a victim who walks the streets in my own town. He has never been right.
It took Christine Buckley 15 years of counselling to be able to come forward in 1992 and speak publicly about what had happened to her. It took another couple of decades for the Ryan report to acknowledge what had happened to these victims. There is no form of public acknowledgement of this, no display or memorial. There is nothing. These industrial schools covered the country, from Letterfrack to Clonsilla, from Dún Laoghaire to Glen. They were all over the place, yet we do not acknowledge them. It is high time we had a debate on this issue. Will the Leader invite the Minister for Education and Skills who I believe is responsible for this issue to have a debate on it and acknowledge these schools? Let us open them up and show them up for the concentration camps that they were, like Auschwitz. Let us not keep putting our heads in the sand.
On a point of order, while I support almost everything that Senator James Heffernan has said, I hardly think one can compare what happened in Germany during the Second World War-----
Rape and torture and abuse of innocent children-----
I hardly believe-----
Is the Senator crazy?
They were not gassed.
They were raped, tortured and abused. They were innocent children.
To compare what happened-----
The Senator is a disgrace to defend them.
To compare what happened in the Magdalen laundries with the Holocaust and the gassing of 6 million people----
That is not a point of order.
What about the ones who were buried there?
The record should be corrected.
They were murdered there, too.
I am sure the Senator would agree on reflection that one cannot compare the gassing of 6 million people with what happened in the Magdalen laundries, terrible and traumatic and awful as everything he has outlined was, on which I agree 99%.
That is not a point of order.
On a separate point, I agree fully with Senator Paschal Mooney’s comments on what has happened in Manchester. The co-operation between Manchester City Council and the Irish community is wonderful. It was great that the Taoiseach was there yesterday.
Much has been made of the recent commentary by Morgan Kelly about the SME sector and the stress testing of the banks to happen later this year.
It was prudent of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, to have the Central Bank examine the underlying data used in connection with his speech at UCD. I find myself much closer to the views of the Governor, Mr. Honohan, on stress testing. I believe the outcome will be mild and tolerable and that we should not get excited. Let us remember that the SME sector has suffered like every other sector. Now it is a few years on and the banks are largely restructured at this stage. I do not think there is any reason to get into a sweat about the SME sector and the banks. It is vital for the State and the taxpayer that the banks end up profitable and that the SME sector survives in order that the economy will thrive.
What is the Senator talking about? They are not surviving.
Senator Paul Coghlan should be allowed to speak without interruption.
With respect, what the blazes does Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell know about the SME sector?
They are not surviving. How dare the Senator speak to me like that?
I rest my case. The Senator is talking rubbish - balderdash. She should back up what she said.
I have never been treated like this before.
I wish to take a different stance today. I welcome yesterday’s announcement by the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, of a €15 million allocation to bring vacant local authority houses back into use. Local authorities must submit their proposals by 28 March, which is not a long time away. It is expected that the fund will bring approximately 500 houses back into use and create jobs in the building and green energy sector in local communities. It is good news for local authorities and, in particular, for those on the long waiting lists for local authority housing.
As a former sportsman and one who is interested in sport of all descriptions, I acknowledge the contribution made over the years by Brian O’Driscoll to rugby in this country. He represented his country all over the world. He has been an exemplary sportsman and a great example to many young men who play rugby and other sports. He is a great credit to himself, his parents and all belonging to him. I wish him well in his final game for his country next Saturday.
Like many others, I was saddened to hear of the passing of Christine Buckley today. I met her on a number of occasions in this House and outside it. Her strength of character and determination were inspirational to us all. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a h-anam.
On a different note, I call on the Leader to organise at some stage for the Minister with responsibility for tourism to visit the House and to give us an account of his views on the Wild Atlantic Way. It is a wonderful initiative which will bring all counties from Donegal right down to Cork together. It is an incredible initiative that will follow on the success of The Gathering and will bring to the world stage the beauty of the landscape and scenery we have in this country. We have unspoiled, charming and spectacular countryside. There is no reason the Wild Atlantic Way could not be at the same level as the Camino in Spain and other spectacular walks throughout the world. Cycling, hiking, walking, running and outdoor sports are a phenomenal tourism product that is growing at a rapid pace. In your county of Mayo, a Chathaoirligh, we see the success of the Greenway between Westport and Achill.
Mulranny.
The Wild Atlantic Way has enormous potential. The €10 million invested is wholly inadequate. We should consider investing additional tens of millions of euro to promote it internationally.
This House is a fitting place in which to make statements or have a discussion on the benefits of and the Government's view on the future of the Wild Atlantic Way.
I support and agree wholeheartedly with Senator Martin Conway on the Wild Atlantic Way. I was at its launch in Sligo a couple of weeks ago. Along with it, we have a number of other projects. We now have a greenway being proposed for County Leitrim and it is important we get funding for it. My colleague, Senator Terry Brennan's county, Louth, also has a greenway.
A most spectacular greenway.
We should come together to ensure we put all our efforts into ensuring we obtain funding for all of these tourism projects as soon as possible.
The last two speakers spoke about the Wild Atlantic Way. We had wild times in the House earlier. I do not know what has come over some Members this afternoon.
It is Senator Paul Coghlan who might need mediation. Is he okay? The Leader might mediate.
Or alternatively provide for dispute resolution.
I am available for mediation.
Senators Darragh O'Brien, James Heffernan and Martin Conway, among others, spoke about the passing of Christine Buckley. She was a remarkable and courageous lady and I express my condolences and those of the House to her family.
On legislation being introduced in this House, as I have said on numerous occasions, I can only play the cards that have been dealt to me. Legislation is very slow in coming to this and the other House, as can be seen if one looks at what is being discussed. I will relay Members' concerns and have already relayed mine about the flow of legislation. When it eventually comes - l do not see it coming before the end of this term - I have no intention of rushing it through the House for any reason, unless it is emergency legislation. The system is not working. I mentioned some weeks ago that there was a need for a whole-of-government approach. Departments are pushing their legislation, as are the parliamentary draftspersons, and I am aware that the Taoiseach raised the matter at the Cabinet recently. It is a source of concern and a matter that must be addressed. As I mentioned, the Taoiseach is also concerned by the lack of legislation. Senator Aideen Hayden mentioned the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Senator Feargal Quinn and the Cathaoirleach have mentioned that the committee will not meet to discuss these matters until 26 March, but a number of proposals have been made. I submitted the Government's proposals last week to the office of the Cathaoirleach and we will discuss the matter on 26 March.
Senators David Norris and Michael Mullins, among others, raised the issue of the fluoridation of water and the fact that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, intended to set up an expert panel on fluoridation. Senator David Norris has pointed out that the matter was discussed in the House some time ago.
That is when the commitment was given.
The Senator also referred to the people of Tibet. I have great respect for their endurance and will call on the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to debate the issue in the House.
Senator Colm Burke raised the matter of the drafting of legislation. I will raise it with the Government Chief Whip and he, in turn, will raise it with the Attorney General. The matter is being and needs to be examined.
Senator Thomas Byrne spoke about climate change. We can certainly have a debate on the issue in the House.
However, I certainly have no intention of meeting through the night. Actually, I believe it was the Senator who mentioned the nonsense of meeting through the night only a few weeks ago and I would go along with him in that regard. We can have a debate on the issue but not through the night.
Senators John Whelan, John Kelly and Denis Landy raised the issue of wind farms. The matter is to be raised on the Adjournment this evening, as well as being the subject of a Private Member's motion to be debated tomorrow. In that context, I do not propose to pre-empt what the Minister will say about it.
Senator Sean D. Barrett referred to the Minister for Finance's response to the recent comments of Professor Morgan Kelly. The Minister responded in the correct and a diligent manner on the subject. He was in the House last week and the Senator contributed to the debate with him. However, only ten Senators contributed to the discussion with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation on An Action Plan for Jobs. We can certainly invite Ministers to come the House, but when debates are requested, we must fill the time slots when they set aside time to come.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell spoke about the need for increased lending by the banks to the SME sector. Again, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation was in the House last week to discuss An Action Plan for Jobs, but we can certainly ask the Minister of State, Deputy John Perry, to come to discuss the issue of lending to small businesses.
On a point of order, may I ask my dear and respected friend Senator Paul Coghlan if he would be prepared to withdraw the remarks he made about Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell talking balderdash-----
Senator Paul Coghlan is not replying to the Order of Business.
-----and his assertion that she knew nothing whatsoever about small and medium enterprises?
That is not a point of order.
Our colleague left the House in distress and the remarks made should be withdrawn.
I ask the Senator to, please, resume his seat.
Senator Thomas Byrne is okay. I rang him and he is all right.
I am sorry-----
Senator Thomas Byrne is not distressed. He is okay.
I am not worried about him.
The Leader to continue, without interruption, please.
Senator Terry Leyden asked about the banking inquiry committee. I understand it will be a committee of the Houses; therefore, it is quite likely that there will be a Senator on it. We have made representations to the Government to have the Seanad represented if a special committee is set up.
I am reluctantly available.
Regarding the letter from Jean-Claude Trichet, the Senator seems to know more than I do about where it is and what it contains. The mind boggles and one has to wonder why the previous Government did not publish it at the time.
I wondered about that myself.
That is a good question.
Yes; it is a very good question.
Senator Hildegarde Naughton called for a debate on higher education in the format of a public consultation session. Our next public consultation will be about human rights, but I will speak to the Senator privately to discuss her ideas in that regard. Perhaps we might organise such a debate later in the year.
Senator Darragh O'Brien referred to the opening of the heritage centre in Manchester, as did several other Senators. I am sure everybody welcomes the Government's support for that development. I would be very surprised if the Government's contribution to heritage projects in Ireland amounted to only €5 million. I will invite the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, to discuss the topic of Irish heritage. He was here last week to discuss one of the matters raised by the Senator, namely, inland waterways. We will ask him to come again to discuss the other matters to which the Senator referred. I do not know whether the Senator contributed to the debate on inland waterways last week.
Senator Feargal Quinn asked when the meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges would be held. I note his points about the courses organised by the Teaching Council and the difficulties for teachers working abroad in attending them. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Education and Skills.
Senator Michael Mullins referred to the conflicts in Syria and the Central African Republic. As he pointed out, we had a debate on them, but a further debate is needed. The use of starvation as a weapon of war is despicable. I am sure the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade will be called before the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs to address these matters.
I agree with Senator Paschal Mooney on the need to initiate more legislation in this House. The Government has committed to initiating 50% of legislation here. I understand there are two Bills to be introduced in the next couple of weeks, but they will both be commenced in the other House. We will keep the matter under review. The Senator also called for a debate on the report of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly on wave energy. We can consider the report if we can get a Minister to come to the House.
Senator Marie Moloney referred to the recent survey of neurological conditions by the Neurological Alliance of Ireland and called for implementation of the national neuro-rehabilitation strategy. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Health. It should be discussed by the Joint Committee on Health and Children.
I note Senator James Heffernan’s points about industrial schools. I agree with some of the points he made, but others may have been a little over the top.
Senator Paul Coghlan referred to the recent remarks made by Professor Morgan Kelly, as well as the subsequent remarks made by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, on the outcome of bank stress tests. The outcome will be important not alone for the banks but also for the country and small businesses.
Senator Terry Brennan welcomed the allocation of €15 million to refurbish local authority houses that had been closed. This is long overdue and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, should be complimented on getting that allocation. There are far too many local authority houses boarded up, while there are many people looking for such accommodation. The Senator also lauded the rugby career of Brian O’Driscoll.
Senators Martin Conway and Michael Comiskey referred to the Wild Atlantic Way and other greenway projects in their counties. They called on the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to address the matter. I will invite the Minister to come to the House for an overall debate on tourism in early course.
I also want to be associated with the expressions of sympathy to the family of the late Christine Buckley, as well as to the family of the late Tony Herbert, a former Member from Limerick in the 1980s.
Order of Business agreed to.