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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 Jul 2014

Vol. 233 No. 4

Radiological Protection (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2014: Report and Final Stages

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, and congratulate him on his promotion. As he began his national political career in this House, we are delighted to have him here.

Before we commence, I remind colleagues that Members may speak only once on an amendment on Report Stage, except for the proposer who may reply to the discussion on it. Members are further reminded that all amendments brought forward by them must be seconded. Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 are related and may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 9, after line 41, to insert the following:

"(4) One Director of the Agency shall be an expert in radiological protection.".

Before dealing with the amendment, I join the Acting Chairman in congratulating the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, on the meteoric, if circuitous, route he has taken to his current exalted position. Many of us here soldiered with him in the past and remember him as a very good and forthright Senator. I hope he will bring these qualities to his ministerial position. He has gone via the Seanad, the European Parliament and the Dáil, was appointed Minister of State and now Minister and is also deputy leader of the Labour Party. I wish him well in his challenging role. I pay tribute to him, too, as a representative of a rural constituency. He did a very good job in his previous role, as Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, particularly on the issue of rural transport. He was very knowledgeable and impactive in ensuring the rural transport system was preserved and protected. I hope he will display the same sense of independent thinking today as he has done in the past in this House. As he will know from his time in the Seanad, it is easy to distinguish between Ministers. Some of them are too often caught looking over their shoulders to receive instructions from behind their seat. Others, however, have the courage and incisiveness to differentiate between good amendments and those which are not so good and take the appropriate action in either accepting or rejecting them.

I also take the opportunity to pay tribute to the outgoing Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, who was in the House last week. Many of us had an expectation that he might well be promoted in the reshuffle. To see him returned to the backbenches is a surprise to many. He is a person who distinguished himself in his time as Minister of State and I wish him well in his future political career. He marked me at one time when I was Government spokesman on communications, energy and natural resources and he was my Opposition counterpart in this House.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 arise from our discussion on Committee Stage. The Bill serves to merge - some of us might use the word "submerge" - the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, RPII, within the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, two bodies which were heretofore independent. To some extent, these proposals fly in the face of international trends, whereby radiological protection schemes operate independently of other bodies. The EPA has a very distinctive function in that it is there to protect the environment from human activities and degradation. The modern lifestyles we enjoy have been injurious to the environment. The function of the RPII, meanwhile, is to protect individuals from the effects of nuclear fallout and harmful radon gas. The institute has had a distinguished record in the past 25 years and is internationally recognised for the good work it has done in advising and instructing the Government on a range of radiological issues. It is important that this is not lost in the merging of the two bodies.

The EPA has been engaged in four core activities, each of which is overseen by a director. This legislation will add a very distinguishable fifth area of activity and a fifth director. I am grateful to the previous Minister and his officials for giving me a note on the background to this. The four activities are environmental enforcement, climate licensing research and resource use, environmental assessment, and communications and corporate services. The directors in each of these divisions work with the director general of the EPA. It is very much an executive board.

I know that in a few minutes the Minister will probably say that he intends the radiological protection division to be headed by a director with expertise in the radiological sphere. In this instance we are anxious to ensure that it does because, in fact, the Bill is silent on the matter. Section 21 says that the agency will consist of a director general and five other directors. We could presume that one of those posts will be a director for radiological protection, but that could change. The note says this will ensure that the radiological protection expertise can be - and I emphasise the word "can" - a criterion for the selection of directors. The section also allows the Minister to direct, by order, that a director must have specific radiological protection or other qualifications. By way of a corollary, we could interpret that to mean that the Minister may not make such a direction by order. The legislation gives the Minister an optional discretionary power. We are saying that in the merging of the two bodies, particularly a body as important as the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, primary legislation should underpin the post of a director with appropriate expertise in the area. The Bill does not say that at present. The Minister may say that was implied, but it would be open to any Minister, or director general, to influence the decision and, therefore, the appointment might not happen, which would lead to the diminution of the role of the radiological protection objective within the new body, a move which we think is unwise.

I presume the Minister will repeat the assurance we were given on the last day that the person involved will have the necessary expertise and will or may be a director. If that is the case then I see no impediment to the Minister's agreeing to specific legislation. That is why I am happy to propose that one director of the agency shall be an expert in radiological protection, which combines the objectives sought in sections 21 to 23, inclusive. I urge the Minister to think independently in this regard and accept this simple amendment.

I second the amendment.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire. Déanaim comhghairdeas leis as an ardú céime atá bainte amach aige. Go n-éirí leis. Tá mé cinnte go mbeimid ag spearáil go minic lena chéile.

I congratulate the Minister on his elevation in ministerial ranks and hope it works out well for him. I look forward to the odd sparring session here.

It will not be the last. I concur with a number of points made by Senator Walsh and with the general thrust of the amendments. There is a sense among people who have been in and around the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland that the amalgamation will dilute the work it has done over the years. Up to now it has been a stand-alone organisation that protected citizens. Many people maintain that it should remain autonomous in order to be as effective as possible. There are also fears that the Bill has gone further than a merger because the RPII will be subsumed into the EPA and, therefore, will lose its identity. Also, and more importantly, its structure and expertise accumulated over the years will be diluted across the EPA. It makes sense that any EPA director take into consideration the RPII's radiological work done to date, and also, the name of the EPA should be changed to reflect such a role. Obviously, certain issues must continue to be worked on, such as the compilation of a new radon map of the country, the provision of ongoing support to hospitals, etc., and vigilance about the potential dangers posed by the likes of Sellafield. The argument put forward is fair and well grounded and, therefore, I support the thrust of the amendments.

We are here to debate important legislation. I welcome the Minister to the House on his first ministerial outing and wish him the very best in his new role. I am the Fine Gael spokesperson on the environment in the Seanad and I am sure we will work together a lot. I wish to pay tribute to the outgoing Minister, Deputy Hogan, and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, who answered questions and dealt with the Bill here. The Department is not an easy one but I know the new Minister will find it easy and make it his own. It is difficult to have press releases on water charges, property charges, septic tank charges and all those difficult issues. The Department has done a lot of heavy lifting in that regard and the Minister will have a lot of heavy lifting to do. The Department is important because it focuses on the environment. It is true that we must protect our environment, and today's legislation deals with the amalgamation of the RPII and the EPA. The merger will lead to an EPA that is stronger than a stand-alone entity and does not mean we will have all officers and no soldiers. The new entity must have one officer. As the Minister has said, it will have five directors. The legislation gives him the power to ensure that, naturally enough, anybody in charge of radiological protection is qualified and knows what he or she is doing. I know that the person and his or her directives will ensure that the very good work done by the RPII is continued. I compliment the RPII staff on their work and hope it will continue in the EPA under one directorship. Too many officers but not enough soldiers doing the work can be a handicap and I wish the Minister the best with this important sector. The Bill has been amended to include radiological protection as well as environmental protection, which is the theme of the legislation, and I hope it will be stronger. Also, a new report on the matter has been published.

I thank the Senators for their good wishes. I started off in this House and it is always good to return.

Let me commence by saying that the Bill was primarily developed by previous Ministers, particularly the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, and I compliment them on their good work. As Senator Walsh will know, I always accept good ideas and always will, but no one has a monopoly on them. However, I do not propose to accept his amendment. In doing so I want to again stress to the House that this legislation should not in any way be interpreted as a reduction in the Government's commitment to radiological protection.

First, none of the professional expertise of the RPII will be lost in the course of its merger with the EPA. All of the staff with specialist radiological protection qualifications, skills and competencies will become full-time permanent staff of the EPA. The current chief executive officer of the RPII will become a director of the newly merged organisation for a period up to 30 April 2016 to allow for a smooth transition. At that point the fifth director position will be filled in the normal manner. Of course it will be open to the former CEO of the RPII to apply for the position. He or she will also have the option to stay on in the organisation as a senior principal scientific officer after 30 April 2016.

The Bill makes a number of other amendments to the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 to ensure that the EPA has the necessary powers and functions to meet its new statutory duties regarding radiological protection. As I have mentioned, it provides that a fifth director be appointed to the agency, at section 21. It goes on to provide, at section 22, that the statutory selection committee for directors will include a person with radiological expertise, appointed by the Minister. Section 23 amends section 24 of the EPA Act to state:

[W]hen selecting candidates, the committee shall have regard to the special knowledge and experience, including experience in environmental matters or radiological protection matters, including such qualifications as the Minister may by order specify.

Thus, radiological protection experience will be a key consideration when selecting future directors, as appropriate, and the Minister has the power to specify qualifications required for a particular directorial post. Sections 25 and 26 of the Bill make amendments that provide for radiological protection expertise to be included on the EPA's statutory advisory committee and the committee can provide advice on such matters to the EPA. It is also intended to set up a separate specialist advisory committee focussed entirely on radiological protection by statutory instrument that will provide advice to the EPA and the main advisory committee as required.

Taking all of this into account, there is adequate provision in the legislation to ensure that radiological protection becomes, and will remain, a core function of the EPA. I am reluctant to incorporate an amendment that would seek to legislatively prescribe the divisional organisation of the EPA, or to confer, as this amendment undoubtedly would, one of the offices with a more pre-eminent or differentiated status. Accordingly, I do not accept the amendment. There is a difficulty with this proposed amendment arising from the use of the words "executive officer". As there is no definition of the position of executive officer provided for in the Environmental Protection Agency Act, the proposed amendment lacks, prima facie, the necessary legal clarity. This situation is complicated by the fact that there are civil and public service grades that have the formal title "executive officer" and, without a definition of what is meant by this in the Bill, it will not be sufficiently clear what "executive officer" means in this context given the phraseology of the amendment.

Notwithstanding this, the Bill as currently drafted provides for the appointment of a fifth director who will manage the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. It will be the function of the director general of the newly-merged organisation to arrange the distribution of the business of the agency among its directors and this will be done having regard to the statutory functions and requirements of the organisation. The director in charge of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland will be a full director of the EPA. There is nothing in the proposed amendment that would improve the quality or standard of radiological protection provided by the newly-merged organisation. I do not propose to accept the amendment.

Concern has been expressed and not just by Members. The board of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, particularly its distinguished chairman Professor William Reville, has expressed the fear that there could be a diminution of the focus on radiological protection because of the merger. I take the Minister's point in respect of amendment No. 2. Amendment No. 1 is very clear, which says that a director of the agency shall be an expert on radiological protection, and is the amendment I will press.

Looking at other areas of responsibility, given that the body is being merged, a director for communications and corporate services cannot be regarded as on a par with radiological protection. With regard to section 14(1), whereby the incumbent is protected and will operate as a director for a term ending not later than 30 April 2016, I thought the Labour Party had turned a new page. I am concerned if we are back at the old method of operating whereby an individual - a senior and highly paid public servant - is being protected and protection of society as a whole is secondary. That is why I suggest that, subsequent to 30 April 2016, the director is specifically charged with responsibility for radiological protection. I am disappointed the Minister is unable to accept the amendment.

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 12; Níl, 27.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Crown, John.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mac Conghail, Fiach.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • Walsh, Jim.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O'Keeffe, Susan.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paschal Mooney and Jim Walsh; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 13, line 5, after "Directors" to insert ", one of whom shall be the executive officer with responsibility for radiological Protection".

Amendment put and declared lost.
Question put: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 29; Níl, 5.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Crown, John.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O'Keeffe, Susan.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.

Níl

  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Mac Conghail, Fiach.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Rónán Mullen and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh.
Question declared carried.

When is it proposed to take next Stage?

Question, "That the Bill do now pass", put and declared carried.
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