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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Sep 2014

Vol. 234 No. 5

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, Freedom of Information Bill 2013 - Committee Stage.

As every day passes, in the context of the Seanad by-election and the appointment of Mr. McNulty - the Leader can shake his head all he wants-----

It is becoming a bit of a-----

Senator Darragh O'Brien to continue, without interruption.

If every Member asks himself or herself honestly whether this has been handled well by the Government, everyone will agree that it has not, leaving politics out of it. However, as every day passes, we are getting more information on this appointment. I have a few questions. I heard the Taoiseach's interview from America. He effectively said he was the Taoiseach, that he was the leader and that he would do whatever he wanted.

The Taoiseach has no regard for the Seanad, which is why he proposed to abolish it. He previously tried to undermine a democratic decision regarding the selection of candidates for the banking inquiry. He tried to force through a vote and interfered in the process here. Serious questions remain unanswered about what he and Fine Gael are doing in ensuring Mr. McNulty's candidature is valid. It is an unprecedented and unparalleled stroke.

An individual has been appointed to the board of the IMMA who will not even serve on it because his qualifications do not stand up to scrutiny. What is worse is that the candidate misinformed and misled the Seanad nomination hearing by his omission of the fact that he had only been appointed a number of days earlier to the IMMA board on a temporary basis. When another candidate, Mr. Craughwell, lodged a challenge, he withdrew it on the basis that he saw from the Taoiseach a nomination paper that indicated Mr. McNulty was a member of the IMMA board. At no time during the meeting did Mr. McNulty and his election agent say he had only been appointed three days previously and that he had not met or served on the board. That is why Mr. Craughwell withdrew his challenge. Was the information available to the High Court judge who presided over and examined the applications for the nomination? Did the judge know that this individual had only been appointed to the board a matter of days previously?

Why was the IMMA board not advised of this appointment? More importantly, has it met to ratify Mr. McNulty's application? If one is put forward as a nominee to a board - this would happen in any company - it needs to be ratified at a board meeting. Furthermore, Members received letters this morning outlining that they would receive registered letters tomorrow with the ballot paper to vote in what is now a sham election with a sham Government candidate. This is important in the sense that the Taoiseach has again undermined a democratically elected House of Parliament and does not seem to realise how serious this issue is.

I again propose an amendment to the Order of Business: "That the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht answer some of the questions she was asked the other day." All I want her to outline is who asked her to appoint Mr. McNulty to the board of IMMA. Was it the Taoiseach or someone else? Why did she appoint him when he had not even made an application?

Does this form part of the amendment?

I am putting it in context. I formally propose an amendment to the Order of Business for those who are interested in the democratic process and the integrity of this House and the Seanad by-election. No one should be fearful of the Minister coming to the House to answer these questions.

I formally request the Cathaoirleach to convene a special meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to carry out an investigation, as it is allowed to do under the legislation passed in respect of the banking inquiry - it also provides for compellability rights - and to enable elected Members of all parties and none to put questions.

I would like to clarify that I do not hold any of the staff responsible for any of this. This is the Government's doing. This is bad, nasty, dirty party politics on the part of Fine Gael.

The Senator is way over time.

Will the Cathaoirleach convene-----

I have no role at all in the by-election.

The Cathaoirleach is Chairman of the House.

The Cathaoirleach convenes the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

I can call it.

That is what I am asking the Cathaoirleach to do.

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges has no role in this matter.

What other forum, bar this House, is available to examine Standing Orders, for which the Cathaoirleach is responsible, and the electoral process?

This has nothing to do with the House.

Of course it has. The Cathaoirleach is talking nonsense.

It has. An individual will sit in the House following the by-election.

That has nothing to do with the procedures of the House.

I have the utmost regard for the Cathaoirleach and do not mean to delay the House, but if the by-election is allowed to proceed, an individual will be elected who is not qualified to be in the House.

The House has no say in whether the man is suitable for election.

I have a say and all of us should have a say if we care about this House.

As the Senator will be well aware, there is a process in place under the 1947 Act that has been gone through.

The House has an obligation to oversee the procedures used.

Fine Gael might as well have appointed Mickey Mouse. One could put a dog in here instead. I am asking the Cathaoirleach to convene a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in order that we can discuss how an investigation can be carried out. I have proposed an amendment to the Order of Business.

It is not a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

I am seeking direction from the Chair on for whom it is a matter because if the Taoiseach is allowed to do this, all he will be doing is treating the House as his own. It is not his.

That is not a matter for the Cathaoirleach-----

Jesus, it is absolutely. Do we not care about this?

It is not a matter for the Cathaoirleach. The House makes its own decisions also.

Until we get proper answers, I will propose amendments to the Order of Business. I expect the Government-----

I have no role whatsoever in this matter.

Fine. I expect the Government parties to accept the amendments. If they want transparency and to get to the truth behind this, they should bring the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht here themselves.

The Senator is way over time.

I congratulate Deputy Ciarán Lynch, Chairman of the banking inquiry sub-committee, and all sub-committee members on the timely and speedy manner in which they have carried out their work. The final submission from the sub-committee will come before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of both Houses and we will be in a position to debate the terms of reference of the inquiry by mid-October. It is interesting that Fianna Fáil's finance spokesperson, Deputy Michael McGrath, has said he is satisfied the inquiry will not be a witch-hunt against his party. The acceptance of the suggestions of Deputy Joe Higgins that the inquiry should consider, for example, the role of the media is welcome because there have been allegations of a cosy consensus around the property market, given its value to the media during this period. I am sure the media will welcome this.

It is a testament to the maturity of the members of the sub-committee from both sides of the two Houses that they have worked so well together and achieved such a consensus in a short time. This leads me to understand there will be a full outcome to the inquiry during the term of this Seanad, to which I very much look forward. Many people lost their life savings and had their lives destroyed. Some remain in negative equity or have had their homes repossessed. We can never move forward until we know the truth about what happened, not just on the fateful night in September 2008 but during the previous 15 or 20 years. It is welcome that the inquiry's mandate covers the period from the mid-1990s, if necessary, and that we will have the terms of reference before us, I hope, by mid-October.

We have raised the issue of the upcoming budget on a number of occasions. The Budget Statement will take place in two weeks' time. There is a lot of discussion in the media about conflicting suggestions from different bodies as to what the Government should and should not do in regard to the budget. There has been debate on whether it should deal with the entire €2 billion figure, as was suggested by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, €800 million as suggested by the Nevin Economic Research Institute or, as the Minister suggested, that we have a neutral budget. My concern is that much of the debate has focused on the issue of tax breaks. I want to make a plea. A number of other Members and I are working with the NGO sector. I am well aware of the stress and crisis the sector has been under over the past number of years. It has become a cliché to refer to doing less with more, but NGOs have been doing less with more for a long period of time when dealing with very vulnerable people in situations where there are no immediate outcomes. We need to move forward in supporting the most vulnerable people rather than giving tax cuts and tax breaks to people who do not necessarily need them. On that point, I call for a debate on the wider economy and the priorities we should have in terms of a fair and redistributive society. I would like such a debate before the budget but if that is not possible it should take place shortly afterwards.

Could the Leader check the status of the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill? I understood the Seanad would have the privilege of introducing on Committee Stage in the House the Bill on the deposit protection scheme. The loss of deposits unjustifiably is an enormous issue in the rental sector and often leads to homelessness.

I second Senator Darragh O'Brien's motion. I compliment Senator Hayden on her sterling performance on RTE radio's politics programme last night. She made, however, one mistake. The Bill concerning the abolition of the Seanad contained no reference whatsoever to a referendum, nor was it mentioned in the explanatory memorandum. The whole thing was a fix up. I called on Members on the other side of the House to vote against the Bill because it was about the extinction of the Seanad and nothing else.

That leads me to the squalid matter of the by-election. Nothing could focus the minds and attention of the Irish people on the necessity to reform the Seanad more than this exposure. There are 225 votes and the Government side will be whipped for a candidate who is not eligible. I wonder why those in charge of the inquiry, in particular the judge, did not question the matter of Mr. McNulty's membership of the board or his attendance-----

That is not a matter for the House.

It most definitely is. It is a matter for the election.

The 1947 Act sets out how elections are conducted. There is a process which the Clerk of the House------

I am saying it is appropriate for Members of the House to discuss the procedures for the election.

The returning officer has a role and there is a judicial review process.

We must be able to question the procedure. The system is rotten. Deirdre Clune was elected in a sham of an election, but at least it was better than this one will be. In regard to the appointment of Mr. McNulty to the board, I do not believe there has been or will be a board meeting held at all during the course of his tenure of the office which he will have to leave the minute he is elected here. It is an utter sham. He will not attend a board meeting and prating on about how his commercial expertise will be valuable to IMMA is incorrect. How will it be valuable if he is not at a board meeting and is only on the board for two weeks? It is a grotesque farce.

The only response of the Taoiseach was that it his right and entitlement to make such an appointment and that he can do what he wants. This matter has completely exposed Fine Gael - I do not speak of my colleagues in the House and I know their attitude towards this - in terms of reform of the Seanad. This is a ridiculous by-election and nothing could more clearly demonstrate how utterly inappropriate the methods of election to this House are.

The Taoiseach, in response to his defeat in the referendum, had undertaken to reform the university seats, the only democratic element in this House. He is leaving untouched the entire area which he, by his actions, has exposed as a sham and a collection of rotten boroughs. I do not think the Irish people will take to a piecemeal reform of Seanad Éireann. We now have, accidentally but clearly, a classic case for complete reform of Seanad Éireann, including its methods of voting, election and nomination. This must now be up for grabs. We cannot put up with a piecemeal approach with a vindictive and spiteful attack on the university seats and an attempt to delete them because we are the most annoying part of Seanad Éireann.

I reiterate what I say yesterday, namely that anyone who runs his or her own business is competent to be appointed to any State board because such people are involved in hiring staff-----

He will be there for two weeks. Give me a break.

I did not interrupt you.

The Senator without interruption, please.

Could Senator Burke explain how running a shop provides one with expertise in modern art?

Senator Burke without interruption, please.

I will jump up and say it is a perfect answer.

Senator Burke without interruption, please.

Running a business and being self-employed qualifies anyone to be involved in a board. He is an appropriate appointment to the board. In this House we seem to have forgotten that the Taoiseach appointed more Independent Senators who were not involved in any political party to this House than any previous Taoiseach.

That is totally irrelevant.

I did not interrupt anyone here.

Senator Burke without interruption, please.

The Senator could have; I do not mind being interrupted.

In fairness to the Taoiseach, he has appointed people who are independent of politics and have made a fantastic contribution to this House. Let us give credit where credit is due. Mr. McNulty would have qualified for the Cultural and Educational Panel with or without the appointment to the board, and that is now quite clear. This is a technical issue. I recently heard of someone who wished to run on the Agricultural Panel but did not qualify, and bought a greyhound when then qualified the person to run on the Agricultural Panel.

The Senator is exposing more of the corruption. We should do away with this corruption and create a proper, democratic Seanad Éireann.

Senator Norris you have spoken already. Senator Burke without interruption, please.

I agree with Senator Norris that there is a need for reform in how we elect Senators. I am one of those who agree with him because the current panel structure comprises technical procedures and nothing more.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

My points are in response to what has been said. There are a lot of allegations flying around. Individual panels are of a technical nature and some have questioned whether someone is fit to sit in the House. Anyone who is over 18 years of age is fit and qualified to sit in the House no matter what his or her background is, and Mr. McNulty is suitably qualified to be in the House. I look forward to his arrival here.

Senator Burke could defend the indefensible. He must have been a very good lawyer. I hope he still practices because he is certainly very persuasive. I hope the greyhound he bought was a good runner. The media are very interested in this issue, and rightly so. Today "Liveline" will probably be full of calls from middle Ireland. This difficult situation and complicated issue may have an effect on the by-elections in Dublin and Roscommon-South Leitrim.

That this is regarded as an unseemly affair will probably push our candidates over the line. It is on the same day-----

What has this to do with the Order of Business?

It is only right that we should add my voice to this. The point is that the closing of the ballot is on the same day as the by-election, namely, 10 October. The reaction of the people will be quite interesting. It will really be a vote on the reaction to this matter.

We are not discussing that. Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

I want to say to the Leader that we should send our best wishes to the Naval Service, the Customs and Excise and the Garda Síochána for boarding the yacht Makayabella off the Cork coast yesterday. The yacht was en route from Venezuela, via Colombia, with drugs. It was a major seizure and we must commend all the brave naval personnel who were present to intercept the yacht. It is one of the largest drug seizures in the history of the State and probably one of the largest in the history of Europe. For every one caught bringing in drugs, there are possibly others getting through, using our coastline.

The seizure was of pure cocaine. The trouble is that the people who use cocaine are fuelling the industry in Ireland and throughout the world. Those who advocate the use of marijuana and other drugs are bringing young people into a life of drugs. Cocaine is particularly dangerous but less hard drugs are also dangerous. It is regrettable that anyone in public life and elected to the European Parliament should be advocating the use of these narcotic drugs and bringing young people into a life of misery. We are very fortunate to have the support of the Garda. The three suspects are now to be questioned in Cork. I hope there will be more of these seizures in the future.

I agree that we need to start having a serious debate on Seanad reform. It is 17 months, at a maximum, to the next Seanad election and general election. We will not see too much reform before the next election but I would like to see constructive, positive engagement over the next year or year and a half on what should constitute Seanad reform so it can feed into the various parties' election manifestos. By the time the last general election was called, most parties had committed to a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. A debate should result in a commitment to reform and feed into the next programme for Government so we will see Seanad reform.

I also congratulate the Naval Service and the Garda Síochána on what was a fantastic operation off the coast of Cork yesterday. With the justice committee members, I had the pleasure of visiting the naval bases in west Cork. The work the Naval Service does is phenomenal and often not recognised. It has done a great job and certainly deserves commendation. It is good to acknowledge and recognise something positive when it happens. With that in mind, I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Defence to the House in the coming months to discuss the Naval Service, its ten-year plan and its plan for expansion. The Naval Service does a phenomenal job and it is appropriate that the Minister should come to the House to discuss defence, particularly naval services.

I bring to the attention of the House the calls by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and Nevin Economic Research Institute for restraint in the budget debates that are taking place. Senator Hayden referred to some of the points arising. The Taoiseach rightly raised the issue of the high tax rate, which is 52% for people on average earnings of €32,000. Since he rightly raised the issue, I have received in my mailbox an incredible number of lobbying communications proposing that we spend a surplus that does not exist. There have been calls from lobby groups for more corporate tax breaks and reliefs for the property, construction, hotel and film sectors and the usual suspects. Many of these calls for unanalysed and unrestrained public expenditure come from groups that were closely associated with the boom–bust period. They certainly have learned nothing.

It is not the time to abandon caution or to give in to these kinds of lobbyists. We need a debate on the context of this budget because some of the pressure groups and lobbyists have gone completely out of control. I hear requests to double capital expenditure. That is irresponsible without proper economic appraisal, and it could jeopardise the recovery. Therefore, I ask the Leader to have a debate on this. If the Minister is preoccupied with many other matters, perhaps we should have a debate among ourselves on what the priorities should be in the budget.

I join my colleagues who have congratulated the Garda, Naval Service and Customs and Excise on the success of the major intelligence operation that culminated in the seizure of the yacht off the Cork coast. The success reflects that of the Irish joint task force on drug interdiction in building strong and strategic partnerships at national and international levels. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate with the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, on how more resources can be targeted at communities to root out the drug dealers, who are the last link in the major supply chain that was cut off yesterday through the vigilance of the Garda and Naval Service.

Most serious crime in this country is linked in one way or another to the drugs industry and drug trafficking. If we can tackle this issue successfully, there will be significant social benefits. We all know many young lives are being destroyed by drugs, and that many suicides are linked to the use of drugs and the pressure being put on young people by those selling drugs. I refer also to drug-related deaths. There is a huge cost to our health service. If we can get to the root of the drugs problem and target resources in a strong and meaningful way, we can make considerable savings in our economy and great social improvements. I would like to see what was achieved yesterday recognised. A more targeted approach should now be taken to deal with the drugs problems in our towns and villages throughout the country.

I congratulate the Government on making a decision to develop and consult widely on a national cultural policy. It is the first time that any Government has done so. I applaud the former Minister, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, and the current Minister, Deputy Heather Humphreys, for setting up a consultative process to develop, for the first time, a national cultural policy. However, this has been undermined extraordinarily by the actions over the past week, particularly the appointments to the board of the Irish Museum of Modern Art.

Never has the state of our national cultural institutions been so fragile and uncertain with regard to governance and funding. We heard a couple of days ago that the National Museum of Ireland has had to close galleries. There is extraordinary uncertainty.

The articles and memorandum of association of the Irish Museum of Modern Art state that 15 members can be appointed to the board. I understand – I am saying this under privilege here today – that a letter was written to the board of the Irish Museum of Modern Art to cap its membership at nine. This means that when former councillor Jane Dillon Byrne was appointed by the Labour Party to be the ninth member of the board this summer, there should have been no more appointments.

The articles and memorandum of association refer to a membership of 15. The appointments of last week bring the number to 11. We need clarity. Are there rules? Are they being changed? If the articles and memorandum of the museum state there are to be 15 members of the board, there are four additional vacancies. However, according to a Government decision, the number of members has been exceeded. Therefore, clear issues arise over transparency, accountability and confidence.

My question is whether the chairman of the IMMA was consulted about the skill set. The arts world is being crucified in terms of public funding. We are being told to raise money internationally and that philanthropy is the key, yet I assume the board of IMMA had philanthropic members ready to be appointed. I want to know whether the Minister, or a previous Minister, engaged with the current chairman of IMMA to determine the skill set required by members of the board. It is something I am worried about. Next Tuesday, an Oireachtas committee will engage in pre-legislative scrutiny of the National Concert Hall Bill. Elements of that Bill are to do with centralised control by the Minister and the Government on artistic matters.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I would like to invite the Minister to have a broad debate about national cultural policy and begin the process of developing a national cultural policy by Easter 2016, including provisions on how to enhance, strengthen and protect the independence of the national cultural institutions.

The weakness of our parliamentary democracy has been exposed by the abuse by Fine Gael and the Taoiseach of our institutions, namely, a State board and this House. The Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, came to the Chamber and I put a number of questions to her, as did others. None of the questions was answered and yesterday I wrote a letter to the Minister setting out the questions again. What obligation is on the Minister to answer these questions? This is meant to be a democracy in which we can participate and get answers. What are we here for if it does not serve that purpose? To follow up on the comments of Senator Mac Conghail, the Minister said she was in the process of drafting legislation to ensure the number of board members could be increased from nine to 11. Is the appointment of Mr. McNulty to the board of IMMA legal?

It is governed by the articles of association.

Has the IMMA board met yet to ratify the appointment? It does not appear so. If not, was the High Court judge made aware of these facts when the nomination was queried, or was the High Court judge misled?

We are not discussing the role of the High Court judge.

We are here in a parliamentary democracy looking for answers to basic questions about someone whose candidacy is up for grabs and who is about to take up a position in a few weeks. The public deserves answers, as do Members. Is there a judicial review process to review the recent judgment that deemed the candidate eligible? Can the Labour Party and the Tánaiste, Deputy Burton, stand over behaviour that appears shadier by the day?

I was sorry to hear an unconfirmed report that one of the people who had been given an indication that they might win the nomination, Samantha Long, has now submitted her resignation-----

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

I regret to think there are so many victims.

That is not relevant.

It is relevant.

It is not relevant.

I have great respect for the Members opposite, including Senator Darragh O'Brien, who is normally quite sanguine. I am not sure why the people opposite are getting so excited. I say that with respect. We understand well how democracy functions. Regardless of the appointment to IMMA, this man would have been more than qualified to be on the Cultural and Educational Panel. We are aware of his arts and culture work-----

For God's sake-----

Will Senator Paul Coghlan specify what he has done?

He is involved in everything in Kilcar, County Donegal.

He is involved in a junior GAA team.

He refused to take part in a Radio na Gaeltachta debate with a Gaeltacht candidate, someone who speaks Irish, according to the recommendations of the Members opposite.

He has a wider involvement than that, as the Senator knows, but I will not go down that road.

If Senator Coghlan knows, he should share the knowledge with us.

I do know it but I will not waste the time of the House. I will talk to Senator Norris about it outside the Chamber. The Opposition is shamelessly chasing headlines.

No; we are chasing the principle of the Senate.

This man was prepared to act pro bono, like everyone else. He is as qualified-----

He is not going to play any role-----

On a point of order-----

He is as qualified as a former councillor, company director, barrister-----

-----I ask Senator Paul Coghlan to correct the record, because no board member, bar the chairman, is entitled to claim expenses from IMMA. He is not doing work pro bono because he would not have received a fee anyway.

That is not a point of order.

Sorry; they are all pro bono.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

People are talking about nine, 11 or 15 board members, but the memorandum and articles of association govern the situation.

Has Senator Coghlan read them? If he had read them, the hairs would stand at the back of his neck.

I agree with what has been said by Senator Michael Mullins complimenting the Naval Service. It was a tremendous use of intelligence to arrest people in regard to that amount of cocaine on a vessel in Cork. I commend the Naval Service.

Yesterday, HIQA published a report based on the defibrillator Bill that was allowed to be initiated in the House last year. Following the publication of the Bill, the Minister said he wanted information and asked HIQA to report on it. The Bill was handled in this House, and we need to discuss it because the Minister said he would make decisions based on it sometime in the next few weeks. We should discuss the HIQA report on defibrillators. It is essential and worth doing. Some aspects of it need attention, one of which cropped up yesterday in a discussion. The tax on betting is either 1% or 2%, but the tax on defibrillators - that is, VAT - is 23%. That is unacceptable. We have drawn the attention of the Minister to that and he said he would see what we could do about it in Europe, because it is a matter controlled by Europe. The same applies to another Bill passed in this House, which relates to compulsory carbon monoxide detectors in houses. Such detectors also attract a VAT rate of 23%, while the betting tax is 1% or 2%. These are the sorts of thing we should discuss. Senator Sean Barrett says that too many of us are looking for budgetary changes, but this is something that is being handled by Europe and we are told we do not have the freedom to do anything without going back to Europe. The Minister should go back to Europe and argue the case, because he will find support around Europe. The VAT rate on defibrillators and carbon monoxide detectors does not seem correct when lives are at stake.

On Tuesday, I raised the issue of diesel laundering. The office of the Leader kindly sent me a copy of the debate that took place in the Dáil, including a statement by the Minister, on petrol stretching. In the statement, the Minister said he was satisfied with the progress by the Revenue Commissioners in tackling fuel fraud and with the excellent co-operation between the Revenue Commissioners and the fuel sector. The Minister also said that, since 2011, 30 oil-laundering plants had been closed down, 3 million litres of illicit fuel had been seized and more than 120 filling stations had been closed. That is great. However, in the past week several containers of diesel sludge have been illegally dumped on Louth roads. International bulk containers - transporter containers with liquid - have been removed by contractors for Louth County Council. Six were dumped at Stephenstown Pond in Knockbridge.

There was a slight spillage from one of them. Last Wednesday Louth County Council was notified that nine barrels and one international bulk container of diesel sludge had been dumped on the roadside near Faughart graveyard. On Thursday morning, cubes of diesel sludge were dumped on the roads in Kilkerley, while three IBCs of diesel sludge were dumped at Ballykelly ESB station. Years ago smuggling was a gentleman's game. Smugglers and Customs and Excise and Revenue engaged in a game of cat and mouse and if they were caught, the smugglers held up their hands and took the hit. A smuggler who attempted to smuggle several tonnes of butter or some cattle may have had his lorry seized and that would have been the end of the matter. There is some evidence to suggest those trying to deal with this matter are being intimidated. As the Cathaoirleach stated on Tuesday, it is vital that we endeavour to have the Minister come to the House before this problem gets out of control.

I support Senator Jim D'Arcy's call for the Minister to come to the House to discuss a serious problem, particularly in the Border counties of Louth, Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal. Every year hundreds of millions of euro is being lost to Revenue as a result of this activity which is carried out by gangsters. Unfortunately, these gangsters are, by and large, getting away with intimidating people. People living in the Border counties and the councils that represent them must pick up the tab for dealing with the sludge that is abandoned throughout the area. I call on the Minister to come before the House to discuss this issue. More resources must be allocated to the Customs service to deal with this problem which is spreading from the Border counties to the rest of the State. The issue must be addressed as a matter of urgency.

I join colleagues in congratulating the members of An Garda Síochána, the Naval Service, the Customs service and the international police forces who were involved in yesterday's successful seizure of a ship transporting drugs. I welcome this development as it has ensured drugs valued at €80 million will not reach our streets and the poor unfortunate people who use them. I encourage the Government to provide adequate funding to enable the policing, naval and customs services to continue to engage in these operations.

I ask the Leader to invite the new Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, to the House to discuss how the transition from the vocational educational committees to education and training boards is progressing. I am aware that some difficulties have arisen, particularly in the area of training because some education and training boards do not have a training centre located in their jurisdiction.

I pay tribute to two extra-parliamentary political figures who have done the right thing in the past two days. Mr. Dale McDermott from Young Fine Gael correctly pointed to the incongruence between the Fine Gael Party's pre-election commitment to political reform which was partially responsible for the party receiving my humble endorsement in the previous general election and the actions of the Taoiseach in the appointment of Mr. John McNulty to the board of the Irish Museum of Modern Art. While Mr. McNulty is probably well qualified for the position by virtue of his previous curriculum vitae, it is likely that he is wholly unqualified for it by virtue of his inability to see the job through. I also pay tribute to Ms Samantha Long who did an honourable thing in resigning her membership of the Fine Gael Party on this issue.

I have ruled that issue out of order. Senators may not speak about people outside the House who are not able to defend themselves. In addition, the individuals concerned do not have any role in the matter.

One of them was a candidate for election to the Seanad.

She has no role in this matter, as the Senator is well aware.

I fail to see how it could be out of order to pay tribute to someone. We have paid tribute to all manner of people, from farmers to GAA players to local advocates, throughout the three and a half years I have been a Senator and none of these tributes has ever been ruled out of order. The only thing that appears to be out of order is that it is probably creates an odour for the leadership of Fine Gael that these unfortunate realities are being brought home to roost in this Chamber where they are most relevant.

It is essential that the Taoiseach provide a commitment and firm timeline for his plans for Seanad reform. His behaviour towards the Seanad has been regrettable from day one. His pre-election promise to hold a referendum to abolish the Seanad was valid and an honourable question was put to the people and defeated. However, the manner in which the campaign was conducted was not so honourable. People sent a clear message that there was a real and palpable need for Seanad reform. I was delighted, therefore, when Mr. McDermott of Young Fine Gael stated one of the things that needed to be fixed was the onerous panel system. I fully agree with him that it should be abolished. Why can we not have a reform based on universal franchise to a co-equal Chamber?

I propose to refer in passing to an extraordinary coincidence yesterday in respect of two sets of visitors to the House. The first visitors were representatives of the Amahdi branch of Islam, a widely persecuted and admired near-pacifist movement within the Islamic community whose members suffer terrible persecution in many parts of the world because of the perception that they depart somewhat from what some would regard as the orthodoxy of that peaceful religion. They were followed by representatives of the Iranian Parliament who visited the House as part of the Iran-Ireland parliamentary friendship group. I hope the visit provided an opportunity to raise the issue of the systematic persecution of people for their religious beliefs in the Islamic Republic of Iran. I refer, in particular, to the Baha'i minority whose persecution extends to not being allowed to practise their faith and being regarded not as a religious but as a political movement which has resulted in the judicial deaths of several hundred of them. I ask that Senators be given an opportunity, during the time remaining to us, to invite representatives of oppressed religious minorities in different parts of the world, be they members of the Baha'i faith, Amahdi Muslims or Coptic Christians in Egypt, to give us a flavour of how this problem is panning out.

Many more questions have been raised about the business of the Seanad by-election, notably a compelling interview with Mr. Gerard Craughwell on Newstalk this morning. I urge anyone who has not heard the interview to listen to it. What has happened in this case almost amounts to a fraud, of which Mr. Craughwell was the victim. Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed that the Seanad use its powers under the inquiries Act to launch a full and comprehensive investigation into what took place this week. This presents a challenge to Senators who must to decide whether they wish to talk about this issue or find out exactly what took place. It is essential that the Minister and the Taoiseach come before the House to discuss the issue.

Why does the website of the Companies Registration Office not feature any information on changes in the directors of the Irish Museum of Modern Art? No change has been registered with the office and its website does not give any indication of a change in directors. Apparently, the individual in question used his alleged directorship, which is not recorded in the Companies Registration Office as far as I can see, to qualify himself, belts and braces, for selection on the Cultural and Educational Panel. If the Seanad is to take itself seriously, it must carry out a full investigation to ascertain what took place.

The fault for this issue lies not with Mr. McNulty but with his superiors in the Fine Gael Party and the Government who decided that this appointment needed to be made if Mr. McNulty was to qualify for the panel. He would have qualified in any case; that is not the issue. The issue concerns the shenanigans that took place at senior levels of the Government in appointing someone to the board of an important museum for a number of weeks. I question whether the appointment has been made or is valid. Senator Paul Coghlan has stated there are 15 board positions available in the IMMA. The latest Companies Registration Office printout lists 14 members of the IMMA board. How did the Minister allegedly appoint two people to the board? We will not get answers to these questions without a full investigation of the matter.

During the debate on the establishment of Irish Water I questioned the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, on the use of PPI numbers, as provided for in the legislation.

I questioned her closely as to how this process would work. The Minister assured me and the House that the PPS numbers requested by Irish Water from its customers would be used exclusively within Irish Water. Since then, it has become a major issue with householders across the country. Members of the other House have raised questions about it and the Data Protection Commissioner has become involved. Despite the fact that the Minister assured me at that time that the PPS numbers would be used exclusively by Irish Water, a suspicion has now emerged that Irish Water might be privatised eventually, which has resulted in concern about what would happen to the personal details held on its database. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister to come to the House or, at the very least, to issue a statement reiterating what she put on the record of the House in order to allay the fears of those who are concerned about providing their PPS numbers.

The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is responsible for An Post. I ask that he come to the House or make a statement about the ongoing expansion of postal services by An Post into non-post-office areas. Media reports state that An Post plans to provide stamps and parcel facilities at depots located in business parks around the country. This will take away business from the post office network. I refer to recent news that the credit unions and the post office network are thinking of linking up to provide what might ultimately become a third banking service in this country. This initiative should be actively encouraged. It would reflect the sentiment on all sides of this House which supports the post office network because of its importance to rural Ireland. I ask the Minister to issue a statement or come to the House to clarify the position.

I refer to the furore surrounding the Seanad by-election. Remarks have been attributed to Members on the Government side - from both Fine Gael and the Labour Party - that this is a reflection of how Fianna Fáil did business. Fianna Fáil never did anything like this. I will not get any satisfaction from the other side because they will always throw out this old turnip. Therefore, I ask those in the media to do a little bit of research and they will discover that Fine Gael-Labour Party coalitions, whenever they have been in power, have stuffed State boards with their own people.

This is a bit hard to take.

It is on the record. Over the past 30 years they have done this specifically during what is called the interregnum, when they have been going out of office-----

Which was pretty often.

-----and whenever they were in office they have stuffed State boards. I will leave it with this. I am someone who grew up with Fianna Fáil. One of the major criticisms that used to be levelled at Fianna Fáil Governments by the grassroots was that those appointed by Fianna Fáil to State boards were not Fianna Fáil activists but were actually from the other side. That was a constant major criticism - that we were too well-balanced. They can laugh all they want on the other side of the House, but the facts speak for themselves.

(Interruptions).

Have a look at Mr. McNulty's colleagues on the IMMA board. They are not Fianna Fáil cronies; they are important people in the world of arts.

Senator Mooney's contribution has teed me up. I appreciate why it is difficult for the Members on the Government side to listen to lectures from Fianna Fáil about stroke politics, notwithstanding the defence put forward by Senator Mooney. We all know the historical facts. Notwithstanding the history of Fianna Fáil, it is also very difficult to say that there is not some element or degree or sniff of stroke politics about this entire unpleasant episode. As Members of Seanad Éireann we defended this House strongly and valiantly 12 months ago, and we must be concerned about actions that are not of our making which impugn the authority and reputation of Seanad Éireann. Apparently, one of the defences being put forward by some members of the Government parties at their respective parliamentary party meetings last night was that Fianna Fáil, if in the same position, would have done the very same. That may well be the case-----

When did we ever do that?

Senator Bradford, without interruption.

The lesson is that we must all concede that a new way of doing political business is urgently required. The citizens of this country are absolutely appalled at Tweedledum morphing into Tweedledee and business as usual. We urgently need a debate on political reform, and the Government has produced a document in that regard. In the interests of the people of the country I ask the Leader to try to facilitate an urgent debate on political reform so that we can move away from this trick-of-the-loop type of politics which serves nobody and by which everybody loses. The Members of this House of the Oireachtas have a duty to stand up for democracy in every possible respect. We must offer leadership and ensure that the highest standards apply. I ask the Leader to facilitate that debate. I know he has the same view of the need for fair and transparent politics, as do I and every Member of this House. This unnecessary, unpleasant situation - I will not call it a crisis - has not been caused by any Member of this House. We are the victims, in a sense, of someone else's game.

I am somewhat bemused by the debate over the debacle of the nomination of Mr. McNulty to the Seanad by An Taoiseach.

He has not nominated him to the Seanad; he has nominated him to contest the by-election.

The Senator knows what I mean.

They just got in the Labour Party votes, so let us see what happens.

Senator Coghlan, without interruption.

I was fortunate to be one of the Taoiseach's nominees. After a number of months I decided I wanted to join the Fine Gael Party because I believed in our leader, Enda Kenny, I believed we were going through extremely tough times and I believed that the Taoiseach and Fine Gael, in co-operation with the Labour Party, were going to rebuild Ireland and rebuild the economy.

Throughout the lovely fine weather during the summer recess there were positive headlines in the newspapers reporting that unemployment figures had come down as well as bond yields. Even governments are investing in Ireland because it is regarded as a safe haven. The banks are rebuilding and it is reported that the Government will recoup approximately €3.5 billion if AIB goes onto the stock market. I refer to the GNP and GDP figures. Enterprise Ireland is hosting a conference in the RDS today for hundreds of Irish companies that are doing business abroad. There are more Irish companies employing more people in the United States than there are companies from the United States employing people in Ireland.

In my view, there is an emergence of stroke politics, in that the good news is not being publicised and this is providing an opportunity for the Opposition to take the Government's eye off the ball-----

So it is our fault. We should just shut up and say nothing.

Senator Coghlan without interruption.

Yes. In my short experience here, politics is all about pulling strokes, and this is a stroke by the Opposition to try to bring down the Government-----

A frank admission anyway.

It is back to first principles.

Why was this person named and why was he appointed to IMMA only ten days beforehand? Had he not been appointed, I do not think this would have emerged in the media or even in the House today.

That is exactly the point. Welcome to work.

Senator Darragh O'Brien and the majority of Members have spoken about the upcoming Seanad by-election which will take place on 10 October. I met with the Fine Gael candidate, Mr. McNulty, last evening for the first time. I believe he will be an excellent Member of this House if he is elected.

That is not the question.

It is a big one.

It is not the question.

Please, Senator Norris. You have spoken already. The Leader is about to answer the questions that have been raised in the House.

Senator Byrne said, "The man would have been qualified anyway without his nomination to"-----

We are querying the appointment to IMMA.

Allow the Leader to answer the questions on the Order of Business.

With reference to what Senator Byrne said, that is not the opinion of Senator O'Brien or Senator Norris, who want to act as judge and jury with regard to his eligibility.

The Leader, without interruption.

We allow people to speak their minds on this side of the House. We are not sheep.

I have no intention of acting as judge and jury with regard to the man's eligibility. I agree totally with Senator Byrne that I feel he would have been qualified anyway.

Would the Leader agree with me that there should be an investigation under the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Act?

The Leader without interruption.

I am not the one who makes decisions in that regard. However, he is a candidate for the by-election on 10 October and the Members of this House and the other House will decide who will be elected. I am sure that we will all abide by the democratic decision.

Does this warrant an investigation under the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Act?

Senator Hayden commended the chairman of the banking inquiry for his stewardship to date and called for a debate on the economy. I believe it will be November or December before we can resume a debate on the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill.

Senator Leyden and several other Senators complimented the Naval Service, the gardaí, the Customs Service and all the international agencies involved in the massive drugs seizure off Mizen Head. I join in the compliments to all involved.

Senator Mullins also spoke about the crime linked to drugs, the devastation drugs cause to many communities throughout the country and the need for a more targeted approach in combatting the drugs problem we have.

Senator Barrett spoke about the budget submissions calling for more spending in many areas. There have been many budget submissions but Senator Barrett, like many others, expressed the need for balance and prudence in the framing of any budget.

Senator Mac Conghail complimented the Government on the consultation on the national cultural policy and called for a broad debate on the arts and national cultural institutions. I have asked the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to come to the House to have such a debate and she is certainly willing to have that debate. Hopefully, we will have her in soon.

Senator Quinn spoke about the HIQA report on defibrillators and called for a debate on that matter. I will ask the Minister for Health to come in for a debate on that matter.

Senators Jim D'Arcy and Diarmuid Wilson raised the question of diesel sludge being dumped in County Louth and other Border counties and asked for the Minister to come in to discuss the matter with us. Senator Wilson rightly pointed out that gangsters are involved in this practice and referred to the intimidation that is taking place. It is taxpayers who are picking up the tab. The supporters of these criminals should realise that it is ordinary people - their own neighbours - who are suffering as a result of this despicable practice.

Senator Wilson asked for the Minister for Education and Skills to come in for a discussion on the progress of the education and training boards. I asked the Minister to come in and I am sure she will accede to that request in due course.

Senator Crown spoke about the persecution of people for religious beliefs in several countries. Iran was mentioned. He spoke about inviting people to the House so that we might have a debate on that matter. Inviting people in would probably be a matter that would be more appropriate for the relevant committee but I will certainly examine it.

Senator Mooney spoke about the use of PPS numbers in respect of Irish Water. The Data Protection Commissioner has examined the level of personal detail Irish Water proposes to seek from householders in the application form. Irish Water will be liaising with the Department of Social Protection to verify that the PPS information provided is correct to ensure that customers are entitled to any allowances being provided. This is necessary for Irish Water to account properly for the allowances that are to be funded by the Exchequer. This will also ensure that there is transparency in the use of public funds. Irish Water is a specified body under section 20 of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2014 and is therefore permitted to request PPS numbers to authenticate the identity of a person being provided with an allowance. Irish Water will treat applicants' personal data in accordance with the Data Protection Acts of 1988 and 2003. Irish Water has confirmed to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government that its data protection notice is fully compliant with data protection requirements and that it is in regular contact with the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner to ensure that this is the case. I hope this clarifies the matter for the Senator.

Senator Mooney also encouraged the link-ups between post offices and credit unions which have been suggested. I will not comment on stuffing boards before Governments go out of office because I might have to say too much in that regard.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan spoke about the many positive indicators for the economy. I will not repeat what he mentioned in that regard.

I do not propose to accept the amendment to the Order of Business.

On a point of information-----

There is no such thing as a point of information.

On a point of order, will the Leader respond to the questions I put to him?

On a point of order, I put the same question.

I have no control over what the Leader says on the Order of Business or the replies he has given. Senator Darragh O'Brien has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to address questions regarding the appointment of Mr. John McNulty to the board of the Irish Museum of Modern Art be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 21.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Crown, John.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mac Conghail, Fiach.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 15.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Mac Conghail, Fiach.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.

Níl

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Crown, John.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson.
Question declared carried.
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