The Order of Business is No. 1, motion of referral re appointment of members of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; and No. 2, European Stability Mechanism (Amendment) Bill 2014 - Second Stage, to be taken at 3.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes.
Order of Business
I would like to ask the Deputy Leader where stands Irish Water at this stage and the whole water charges debacle. I found it a little perplexing in the past few days to see Government Deputies and Senators wringing their hands, saying it was terrible and blaming the management of Irish Water. I remind Members opposite that it is their creation. They created Irish Water and set it up as a separate private entity against the advice of PwC.
It is not private; it is public.
It might as well be private as it is a separate entity. They set it up against the advice of PwC. I genuinely call on the Government - Senator marin Conway does not have to leave at this stage as water falls from the sky and it is free-----
We do not comment on Senators leaving the Chamber.
Only 500,000 people have returned the documentation out of 1.2 million. The whole thing is a debacle. The Government might as well shut it down, suspend any further charging and try to get this right. Most people want water conserved and want a fair system, with which I would agree. However, the situation is going from bad to worse and it will not get any better unless the Government shows some leadership. I formally ask the Deputy Leader to ask Ministers to suspend water charges, carry out a proper review, give the system time and put a proper and correct system in place.
I refer to the very serious statements of fact made in regard to the cover up of abuse and rape in the North of Ireland by the provisional movement and by members of Sinn Féin. Unfortunately, this country has had to deal with terrible affairs in regard to child sexual and physical abuse. On foot of the announcement by the Director of Public Prosecutions in the North that there will be a specific inquiry into three cases, what action will the Government take? I am certain there are people in the State - in the Republic - and Irish citizens in the North who have been affected? Are there any plans for the Government to set up an inquiry in this regard? I will not mention any names as I do not want to politicise the situation any more than it has been but everyone knows what the real situation is and who knew what. Perhaps the Government might have a specific response in regard to any inquiry. It may be useful in the coming weeks for the Minister for Justice and Equality or the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to come to the House to address these matters. Even though it was a paramilitary organisation - some would call it a terrorist organisation - its cover ups were institutional, about which there is no question. It was systemic in that organisation.
The social welfare Bill is due, but I am no further down the road in regard to getting answers from the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection about the airport pensioners, the airport pension scheme and the drastic reductions the Government proposes to make to the pensions of both retired members and deferred members, who will take hits of up to 60% to what they were promised.
These reductions also affect the active members of the scheme. I have mentioned this time and again. We all know that if this is allowed happen to this pensions scheme, it will happen to pension schemes all over the country. This is not just about the 15,000 people who are affected. It is very unfair. I think we would agree on all sides of the House that what is being proposed is absolutely outrageous. I cannot get an answer from the Tánaiste. She keeps referring to the fact that the expert panel liaised and dealt in a very detailed manner with people's concerns. It did not and we all know this. In advance of the social welfare Bill, I need to know the Government's position, in order that I can prepare amendments to that Bill. With that in mind, I would like to propose an amendment to the Order of Business that, even for half an hour, the Tánaiste come to the House to make a statement on the position on the pension changes passed under the State Airports (Shannon Group) Bill 2014 which affect 15,000 current and former airport workers. They are entitled to know whether the Government will bring forward amendments to stop these drastic reductions in their pensions. I formally propose that amendment.
I will begin by supporting Senator Darragh O'Brien's request for a debate on child abuse. This is something that is better discussed in the open. It is something that unfortunately I know too much about, being from County Wexford and from the diocese of Ferns. The natural instinct for every institution is to cover it up. That is always the wrong thing to do. I support the call for the Minister for Justice and Equality, or the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, whomever is the appropriate Minister, to come to the House and for that debate to be held. It could be worthwhile for us to do so.
Water is the issue of the moment, about which there is no question. I am a little perplexed at the fact that we are looking at a net figure for water of €175 million. This is on top of other charges and on top of the pain that has come previously but, as Senator Darragh O'Brien has discussed on many occasions, the VAT reduction to 9% for the hospitality sector was paid for out of people's pensions. That amount of money was multiple times the amount that will be taken for water but it got no coverage. Fine Gael did say before the general election that we intended to do that which, again, Senator Darragh O'Brien has acknowledged on a number of occasions in the past. However, I am amazed and perplexed at how an amount of money several times more than that required for water can be taken per annum with no conversation whatsoever about it.
I also wish to raise the issue of the desecration of the grave of a former Taoiseach, Mr. W. T. Cosgrave. Not alone was he Taoiseach but his son was also a Taoiseach and his grandson was a Member of this Chamber, formerly Cathaoirleach and also a Member of the Dáil. I cannot condemn this enough. It is disgusting and scandalous that anybody would do that to anybody's grave. Being a politician is somewhat irrelevant, but given that this man was one of the giants of 20th century Irish history, this act should be condemned in the most severe manner. It is a scandal for that to have happened and even worse, to some degree, on the same occasion that the Taoiseach is launching a book about W. T. Cosgrave.
The recent allegations of child abuse are not allegations at all, as they are very credible. I am concerned to hear Maíria Cahill talking about taking calls from other survivors and victims of abuse and that she is being put in this position. I ask the State to clarify where information should be brought. We all know it should be brought to the Child and Family Agency and to the Garda, but this question must be addressed, particularly in the context of abuse that has happened in the past, and what supports will be provided by the State to survivors of such abuse.
Yes, we need to talk about an inquiry, but we also need to talk about immediacy. We know when every one of these events happens that there are people who are hurting all over this State and who need to given clear direction in terms of where they should go.
Where is the stalled Children First Bill? It has been on Committee Stage in the Dáil for the past year. As I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children, I know it is not in the plan. We have an obligation to ensure we put the child protection code into our statutory system.
I wish to mention the forthcoming publication of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill 2013, particularly in the context of initiatives that I have been working on since my appointment to the Seanad, such as tackling the proliferation of child abuse material, legislative guidance on the disclosure of children's confidential sexual assault counselling notes - it was promised in the House that this would be included in the Bill - and measures that might be taken to reduce the demand for human trafficking of adults and children. On the latter point, I commend the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, for her comments and the commitments she made at the EU Anti-Trafficking Day organised by the Immigrant Council of Ireland in the Mansion House last Friday. On that occasion she said she would examine very carefully the potential of legislation criminalising the purchase of sex. I particularly welcome her commitment in light of the Seanad motion that we, the Taoiseach's nominees, tabled back in October 2012 calling on the Government to criminalise the purchase of sex in Ireland in order to curb prostitution and trafficking. The same express recommendation was made by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality in its comprehensive report on prostitution law in Ireland published in June 2013. The general scheme of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill was due to be published in January 2014. More recently we have been told that it will be published this session. I ask the Leader for clarification on when exactly the Bill will be published. Has the general scheme of the Bill been approved by the Cabinet? Since I have come to this House I have been told that all the answers to my queries will be in the Bill and I await its publication.
I am surprised and disturbed that No. 1, regarding the appointment of the Equality Commission, will be taken without discussion, which seems to be a complete abrogation of the role of the Seanad.
It is going to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality and then coming back.
That is not Seanad Éireann.
Then it will come back here.
Without discussion, again. That is what it is indicated on the Order Paper I received.
We do not know that.
We should be discussing it, particularly in the light of the fact-----
It is a referral motion.
It does not matter. We should be discussing it because these are very serious appointments. The Equality Commission was sabotaged by the previous Government with the able assistance of some of the people who are now being reappointed, including the gay one. We have an excellent new commissioner, Ms Emily Logan. We certainly should be discussing the matter. I look forward to taking up the Acting Leader's assertion that we will discuss it when it comes back. I certainly will not sit quietly if we are expected to take it without any discussion. We ought also to ask them to include, as the other side agreed with me when discussing this matter five or ten years ago, a provision whereby the Equality Commission is required to human-rights-proof or equality-proof Government legislation. That should be part of its remit.
With regard to the sexual offences Bill and this rubbish about Turn off the Red Light, which is being discussed in Northern Ireland, it is a very populist initiative, a good vote-getter and something the public like, but it does not reflect reality. A survey was conducted by Queen's University, Belfast, in advance of the discussion on prostitution and on criminalising the purchaser. The latter is a mad idea because one does not criminalise a sale, so that it perfectly legal to sell something but not legal to buy it. The university carried out a survey comprising 181 sex workers or prostitutes. Less than 1% said they were doing such work in an involuntary fashion. Less than 1% were doing that work involuntarily and 98% disagreed with its being criminalised. That is 98% of the people - mainly women - at the coalface. However, 80% of the public agreed, which is why the initiative is so popular with colleagues who do not bother to think the issues out. This is absolutely ridiculous. Prostitution has never been got rid of - it is a permanent fact. We are only driving it underground and causing distress and danger to the people working in the area.
I will comment on Irish Water.
It is extraordinary that the company is talking about bonuses for a rotten worker. The company has 2,000 extra passenger workers, many of them carried over from the previous situation, and a whole load of people who are getting over €100,000. They are going to get their bonuses automatically. Here we are in Seanad Éireann getting €60,000 and complaining about it. People who are parachuted into the Seanad by the Taoiseach without as much as an election are producing legislation seeking to halve the income we get. When will we learn?
I have spent many occasions on my feet in the House referring to mental health issues, including one area in particular, section 58 of the Mental Health Act. It allows for the non-consensual administration of electroconvulsive therapy to patients. This needs to be repealed urgently. The Minister of State has given some indication that she is disposed towards repealing it. Section 58(2) of the same Act begins: "Where it is proposed to perform psycho-surgery on a patient..." Section 58(6) defines psycho-surgery: "In this section "psycho-surgery" means any surgical operation that destroys brain tissue or the functioning of brain tissue and which is performed for the purposes of ameliorating a mental disorder." It is absolutely obscene in this day and age that there is such a section in any statute. Psycho-surgery was discredited as a treatment for mental illness in the 1950s. I call on the acting leader to bring this part of the Mental Health Act to the attention of the Minister of State immediately with a view to repealing what I consider to be an absolutely barbaric section, as would any reasonable person.
I join others in seeking an update on the Irish Water situation. In line with my party colleagues I call for the full suspension of water charges until such time as we have some clarity and until we see an end to type of headless chicken management that we became used to under the former Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, and that we see from the Government and the management of Irish Water. Some of the examples are frightening. In one case I am aware of, which is similar to the situation in many older parts of cities and towns throughout the country, there is one access point and one meter beneath an old house and this is distributing to several properties on the street. Following an inquiry in recent days about how the situation could be rectified, Irish Water informed me that if I could send on €1,500 in advance, it would arrange for a contractor to come and then the contractor would invoice us for rectifying the situation.
We continue to have issues between landlords and tenants in respect of who is responsible and, in the event that the tenant does not pay, whether the landlord is liable and so on. We have a government in denial. Backbenchers are wringing their hands, as Senator Darragh O'Brien has rightly said.
It is clear that nobody at all has any business acumen. I will use a supermarket as an analogy. We have employed 100 managers, 100 administrative assistants and 100 directors before there is even a loaf of bread on the shelf, before there is even a recipe for baking the loaf of bread, before there is even a safe way to provide that loaf of bread, while expecting people to pay for it. The only logical and fair thing at this point is to suspend the operations of Irish Water until such time as we can stand over the infrastructure and the quality. Only then should we introduce a charge, based purely on ability to pay. It should not include those on social welfare or the less well-off.
This has not been a plan. It has been the high profile exit strategy of the Commissioner-in-waiting, Phil Hogan. It has done little more than put a further dent in a Government that the people are continuing to lose confidence in. The reality is that those in government are completely detached from the needs of the people in the context of water and what they can afford. I second the amendment put forward by Senator Darragh O'Brien.
I was delighted to hear this morning that Ireland has been named among the top five countries in the world to visit in 2015 by the Lonely Planet guide. The guide's annual lists have enormous influence in the travel industry and it is no exaggeration to say that when the Lonely Planet talks, the world listens. Aside from our stunning landscape, friendliness and incredible hospitality, the guide drew special attention to the Wild Atlantic Way, which was opened last year by the then Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, saying it rivals California's Pacific Coast Highway and Australia's Great Ocean Road. This is a fantastic accolade and a testament to the savvy decision to invest €8 million in the route in last year's budget. The guide went on to cite hospitality as one of Ireland's qualities. Although our people are undeniably our greatest asset, the retention of the 9% VAT rate and the abolition of the air travel tax undoubtedly contribute to Ireland's overall attractiveness. Today is a great day for Irish tourism and such a glowing recommendation by a globally-respected publication will no doubt result in a major boost to Ireland's already booming tourism industry.
I wish to outline a formula for Senators. It is a scrambled egg with a little water. We all know one does not put water into scrambled eggs, but here goes: need improvement - 1.5% to 9% performance related payment with Irish Water; meets expectation - 2.75% to 14%; exceeds expectation - 4% to 17%; far exceeds expectation - 19%. There is need, meet, exceed and far exceed. I invite all Senators to tick the appropriate box in respect of their own jobs here.
Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?
My question - all Senators should put the same question - is whether Irish Water is fit and has the ability to carry out the task of performance-related payment. It is not. The only people who are really competent to carry out that task are the Irish people, and they have decided "No", that there is no need, no meet, no exceed and no far exceed. The only time we should use words such as "exceed", "far exceed", "need" or "meet" in respect of Irish Water is with regard to its abject performance, incompetence-----
Do not confuse it any more, please.
-----the undrinkable communication and the boiled up fantasy that it is doing a good job. The only job Irish Water is doing is bullying the people into paying for incompetence. My 91 year old mother, a pensioner who has never made a comment in her life about having to pay bills, said to me when we were filling out the application that I could send in the application but she will not pay. When I asked her why she would not pay, she said: "No, because it is unfair and unjust." It is the first time in her 91 years, after 69 years of work, that I have heard her speak like that about the Irish State and about this particular monstrosity. This is all against a backdrop of a cataract of 40% of our clear, clean water gurgling, flowing and dripping down into the earth.
I consider the initiation, establishment and development of Irish Water to be pivotal to the Government's credibility of purpose. I do not wish to see the Government undermined by the Irish people because they cannot believe in or trust the credibility, validity and justice of Irish Water. The conglomeration and monstrosity that is Irish Water must be rectified and I call on the Minister to come to this House and tell us how he will do that. I hope a Senator will second that call.
Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?
What is the amendment?
That the Minister come to the House and explain how he will rectify the monstrosity that is Irish Water. Will somebody second it?
Yes, Senator Lorraine Higgins will second it.
The Senator just agreed to do so.
I wish to raise the scandalous profit that was made on a site sold by the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA. It is 1-6 Sir John Rogerson's Quay in Dublin city centre. It was sold by the agency for €7.5 million in June 2013 and was then resold last August for €17.75 million. This undoubtedly calls into question NAMA's strategy of rapidly selling its property assets at grossly under-valued prices and ultimately at a significant loss to the taxpayer. A 136% increase in the property price is not reflective of the bounce in the property market in Ireland and it requires further explanation.
NAMA's chief executive officer, Mr. Brendan McDonagh, has stated that the agency will sell up to €250 million worth of assets every three months. In view of the profits to be made by private investors at the expense of taxpayers, this statement is most concerning.
I am aware of a court case being pursued by a US pension fund which alleges that prices were held down by private equity firms such as Blackstone and Carlyle, among others, that formed companies - with representatives from each private equity firm involved - and tried to buy companies or assets in various countries. The firms which are the subject of the US court case to which I refer were accused of agreeing not to compete for each other's exclusive deals and allocating transactions among themselves in order to keep purchase prices down. I understand that NAMA and IBRC have sold billions of euro worth of Irish assets to Blackstone and other private equity firms. In the light of what has been revealed in recent days, I am extremely concerned that the best price is not being achieved for the taxpayer when NAMA is selling assets.
There is no doubt that leopards do not change their spots and to expect companies such as Blackstone and other private equity firms to conduct themselves any differently when buying assets in this country rather than the United States would be foolhardy to say the least. Let us be clear: there is no practice in place whereby competitors are being eliminated from the auction process in order that assets might be acquired at lower prices.
Is the Senator seeking a debate on this issue?
That is why we need to engage in a debate with the Minister for Finance with regard to the transparency of loan sales relating to NAMA and on how that agency is conducting its deals. A 136% increase in the price obtained in respect of the resale of a particular site in Dublin is absolutely disgraceful.
On Sunday last, advice on how to operate economic policy in this country was given to this House and the Government by the chief executive officer of Ulster Bank and the man who was head of permanent tsb between 2007 and 2012. Both of these individuals are opposed to the deposit and loan-to-income ratios which the Governor of the Central Bank has proposed. The British Government owns an 81% stake in Ulster Bank, which effectively bankrupted itself at one point.
The chief executive of Ulster Bank, Mr. Jim Brown, who previously appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, is a very personable man. However, we must ask the question as to how he turned it from being a source of major finance for industrial development in the Belfast area at the turn of the century, into a bankrupt entity. Permanent TSB was heavily criticised in the Nyberg report, which indicated that it had the highest ratio of loans to deposits in the country and that at one point it was lending out over 275% of its deposits. This was a recipe for bankruptcy and we were eventually obliged to bail out that bank. We should debate issues but advice from bankrupt bankers on how we should run the country must surely come at a pretty heavy discount.
On the same topic, last Friday the Central Bank named the members of an 13-person inquiry charged with examining the position in respect of alleged rogue banks. Irish Nationwide is named as one of the latter. This will be a useful exercise and I wish the committee charged with carrying out the inquiry well. One could say - similar to the allegation sometimes made in respect of buses in Dublin - that we have waited six years for a banking inquiry and now two have come along at once. The work of the inquiry to which I refer will complement that being carried out by the relevant Oireachtas committee. It must be remembered that the Central Bank played quite a central role in the financial crisis because it was not doing its job when the latter arose. The Central Bank should come clean with regard to what on earth it thought it was doing between 2000 and 2008 when it was supposed to be regulating the banking sector. t is a case of the Central Bank adhering to the old adage "Physician heal thyself". The bank was supposed to be in charge but it managed to bungle matters in a most comprehensive way. I would like to hear its version of what went wrong in addition to the results of its investigation into other people.
I was extremely disappointed to hear about the desecration of the grave of W. T. Cosgrave last night.
Terrible.
I hope and pray that the perpetrators of this wanton act of vandalism will be brought to justice in the near future. I wonder about the mindset of these people and I am obliged to ask whether they have minds at all.
I was glad to read the article in today's Irish Independent stating that Ireland has been rated fifth in the top ten countries in the world to visit next year. This points to the attributes we have as a nation and the welcome we have for the visitor, and it augurs well for tourism next year and in the years to come.
I want to support Senator Jillian van Turnhout's call for a debate on the Children First Bill, which, as she said, has been stalled on Committee Stage for some time. We supported that Bill when it was passing through this House and the Dáil on Second Stage. It is important it is completed because we need to have robust and fit-for-purpose systems and supports for victims of crime.
Senator Jillian van Turnhout raised the issue in the context of the Maria Cahill case, which is obviously now in the public domain. I wanted to take the opportunity to make a number of points in that regard. A Senator in this House asked me five minutes ago whether I would condemn what she perceived was a Sinn Féin cover-up of abuse. I resent that absolutely and completely. In fact, I find it offensive that anybody would believe that I or any member of my party would be involved in a cover-up of abuse.
(Interruptions).
If anybody has any information on an alleged cover-up-----
Deputy Gerry Adams might.
-----there is a responsibility-----
I thought the Senator was part of the new generation.
They are all the one now.
Order, please.
Members can heckle and politicise this issue if they like-----
He is just trotting out the line his leader gave.
(Interruptions).
I am entitled to make my contribution, with respect. I will make the point again that I find it offensive that people would allege that members of my party, including the leadership-----
Not just members.
-----that any member of Sinn Féin would be involved in a cover-up of abuse.
Does that include Deputy Gerry Adams?
The Senator's leader was involved in a cover-up.
If they have any proof, or if any individual has any proof, they should bring it to the relevant authorities.
We have. She is a woman and a real person called Maíria Cahill.
(Interruptions).
Senator David Cullinane to continue, without interruption. Does he have a question for the Deputy Leader?
I have, but I find it disgusting that there are people who would politicise an issue such as this. I will finish on this point because I think it is-----
On a point of order, every speaker to date in this debate has tried to stay away from politicising this, except the Senator.
That is not the case at all. Look at what the Senator's party leader has said.
Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?
My question is to the Deputy Leader of the House. Can she arrange for a debate on this because what that Bill does is to set out very clearly the limitations of public representatives in what they can and cannot do in instances like this. It also sets out the responsibilities, which are to give support to victims, to make sure they go to the proper authorities and that the systems in place are robust enough to be able to give those supports to victims, which is what the Bill is about.
Incredible.
Last Tuesday eight cattle worth €12,000 were stolen from a farmer in Knockbridge, County Louth. Cattle rustling is on the increase. That man bought four of those cattle in Carnaross mart the previous day at a cost of €1,300 each. Louth IFA is calling for much greater sanctions to be imposed on anyone caught stealing livestock or tampering with cattle ID tags. This is a very serious issue. We know that, down the years of our history, to steal a man's spade in Ireland was the equivalent of taking his life, and was looked on in the same way. To steal a person's livestock is a new low in Irish life which could put a person's lights out economically. I call for much greater sanctions and penalties and for the full force of the law to be applied. I would like the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House to discuss this serious issue. Huge numbers of livestock are being stolen.
Garda figures reveal that 1,979 sheep have been stolen between 2012 and 2014.
On 21 November 2012, I introduced the Employment Equality (Amendment)(No. 2) Bill 2012 to the House. The purpose of my Bill was to ensure people could not be discriminated against in the workplace on grounds of age. At the time we mentioned that we have many progressive legislative measures to ensure people in the workplace are not discriminated against on grounds of gender, race or sexual orientation. However, a blind eye has been turned to this far more prevalent form of discrimination. My Bill was seconded by Senator Crown and received wide support across the House. Many Senators, from both sides, spoke on the issue and supported the Bill in principle.
On 1 April 2014, Deputy Anne Ferris introduced the Employment Equality (Abolition of Mandatory Retirement Age) Bill 2014. Her Bill, which in principle supports my Bill, proposed: "That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Employment Equality Act 1998 and to provide for related matters". The Bill proposes to amend the Employment Equality Act 1998 and to abolish compulsory retirement ages for persons willing and able to continue with the job in which they are employed. When does the Deputy Leader believe this Bill will be taken on Second Stage? It appears that we have a form of lottery which decides at random which Private Members' Bills shall be selected. This is no way to treat such a serious Bill. I feel positive the Deputy Leader will push this Bill forward.
I strongly support Senator Jim D'Arcy in his call for a debate with the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, on new penalties and sanctions for those involved in cattle rustling. This activity is a new low in criminality. A pattern appears to be emerging in this regard. The stealing of cattle, sheep and other livestock would not be happening unless there was an outlet for them and I believe illegal abattoirs are also emerging in certain parts of the country. This crime may be linked in some way to that of petrol stretching and other illegal cross-Border activities. We need an open and forthright debate with the Minister in regard to this emerging criminal activity.
In regard to Irish Water, it must be made to work. While major issues must be sorted out, the company and concept of Irish Water must be made work in the interest of fixing a broken system. The system is broken because of 20 or more years of under investment in our water system. Last week, Senator Terry Leyden mentioned the situation in County Roscommon. I would like to offer him some good news, namely, that due to a significant investment made by the Government recently in water treatment plants in County Roscommon, the "boil water" notices will, I hope, be lifted within the next couple of months and the situation will be rectified for once and for all.
I met some constituents over the past weekend who asked why I do not stand up in the Seanad and inform Members that people in rural areas in County Galway have been paying for their water for the past 30 years and are happy to do so in order to have a safe, reliable water supply at the right price. I believe there is an issue of equity in regard to water. Why should people in rural Ireland pay for their water, but people in large cities and towns get off scot free? There is a balance to be struck, but we need a system that works and is fair. We certainly need to sort out the issue of bonus payments for people who are paid to do a job well. Bonuses should not be part of the equation.
We have had much discussion about Irish Water and debates on wind farms and renewable energy in the House. One issue connects both, which is that end users, who are ordinary people, are constantly being saddled with extra and unnecessary expense in order to cushion various vested interests. Whether it is to do with the preservation of excessive jobs in Irish Water, the payment of unimaginable bonuses or unnecessary extra costs paid to consultants and contractors, ordinary people are expected to pick up the tab constantly. We see it with electricity also, and I ask the Deputy Leader to organise a debate on electricity prices in the context of the 50% increase in the public service obligation, or PSO, charge brought about by the Commissioner for Energy Regulation, which is to be levied on every electricity bill. Despite the fact that wholesale energy prices have fallen internationally due to cheap coal, lower oil prices and increased extraction of shale gas, struggling Irish families are being hit with an annual hike in the PSO from €48.62 to €73.06, including VAT, from 1 October. We must have a debate about what the Society of St. Vincent de Paul is calling a regressive tax that will place an extra financial burden on vulnerable people. It comes on top of a multitude of increased costs. The PSO is in effect a green tax on electricity, the proceeds of which will be used to subsidise wind farm operators who receive €94 million a year in compensation to keep them in business as the price of energy falls. We must look at how unprepared we have been as a country and at how our Governments have failed to plan adequately for the transfer from fossil fuels to renewable energy. I ask for a debate on the issue. It looks likely that Poland will veto resolutions on carbon reductions at EU level.
The Senator can make those points in the debate.
Will ordinary Irish people end up paying extra for a policy that is proving to be unworkable? I call for a debate on that issue.
It is an honour and a pleasure to second Senator Mary-Louise O'Donnell's amendment to the Order of Business.
I thank the Senator.
I am glad to be associated with it.
The Senator is not necessarily my preferred choice, but he is here.
Any port in a storm, my dear.
I will attribute that to the Senator.
You should be grateful for small mercies.
Speak through the Chair, please, Senator Leyden.
The Senator made a very convoluted speech which I found hard to understand but besides that-----
Convoluted or well written?
Well written but convoluted.
Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?
I am delighted that Senator Michael Mullins has taken an interest in the Roscommon-Galway constituency, where he looks like a potential candidate. He will have to resolve the water issue long before he dips his toe in that water.
We will have it ready for the Senator by February.
The Senator will have great difficulty getting a seat in that constituency on the next occasion, given the poll he received the last time. The construction of Irish Water shows the ineptitude of the Government. I look back at Charlie Haughey, who, as Taoiseach, established the IFSC, which currently employs 50,000 people.
The good old days when Charles Haughey was Taoiseach.
He had the ability to set up a company and make it work. The Government is unable to establish a company and make it work. That is obvious from what it has done to what was a successful water system in most parts of the country. One would think this water scheme had just been invented and that there had been no pipes in place for the last number of years. This particular tax is regarded as a poll tax. Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell's mother is a very wise woman, but I am surprised to hear that the Senator was filling in her form if she is not going to pay. It was an unnecessary exercise.
She is a very qualitative citizen.
Does Senator Terry Leyden have a question for the Deputy Leader?
I have not filled in any form as yet. It is likely, with 1 million people not filling in the forms, that others will be encouraged to do likewise. There seems to be a revolution in the Labour Party and many may vote for a wise Fianna Fáil motion being debated in the other House recommending that the whole process be suspended for six months to a year to resolve all the teething issues before coming back with a proper approach.
The Senator is way over his time.
We opposed the Water Services Act on this side of the House and are delighted that we did so. The question of paying bonuses to people who are not doing their jobs was the subject of great interest for every member of the public I met at the weekend----
The Senator can make these points during the debate.
Senator Terry Leyden is becoming as convoluted as he accused me of being.
When are we going to have the debate?
There is a proposal for a debate on the matter.
Are you acceding to the request that we have a debate on it? I am delighted and hope the House will now actually accept the very wise proposal made.
Listening to the debates over the weekend, two words struck me: "hypocrisy" and "cover-up". On the hypocrisy of the leader of Sinn Féin, Deputy Gerry Adams, it took the courage of a young woman, Mairía Cahill, who had been violated to finally get an admission from him that there was the practice of having kangaroo courts within the Republican movement, which was a second abuse, on top of the horrendous violation of a young woman. I was the Senator who approached Senator David Cullinane to ask if he, as a Member of this House, and other Sinn Féin Members would be condemning this practice. Instead we heard him say that if there was any proof, it should be shown to him. Where are we going? Are we growing new, little versions of Gerry Adams in this House?
Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?
What I am looking for is less hypocrisy and more truth.
I was also struck by the hypocrisy of the Government and members of the Government parties in the cover-up about Irish Water. Let us call a spade a spade. Irish Water is not perfect, but Members of the House on the Government side and Government Members in the Dáil put Irish Water in place. The legislation was approved in this House, despite the objections of many on this side. I did not vote it because I did not know what the cost would be; I saw it as a second form of tax and we did not know for what the first billion we would pay in taxes would be used, while we received no answers on the question of bonuses. I received an answer from Irish Water in March this year, that X% of salaries was being held back and that only if staff performed would they receive a bonus. Now the Government is reeling it out as if it was a bonus on top of a salary. We have had nothing but hypocrisy and a cover-up. One million people are not wrong and they are right not to sign until we have received the truth, have accuracy and fairness. I absolutely support Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell's call to have the senior Minister in the House to discuss Irish Water.
The Senator is way over time.
We must have fairness on the issue.
I, too, call for a suspension of the operation of Irish Water. We have seen the Government ignore the reports of its own consultants, PricewaterhouseCoopers, who told it not to establish Irish Water in the way it did. Now it is giving out about the fact that it is not working, even though it was told that it would not work in the first place. I do not know why it is crying because in 2009 Fine Gael policy was to establish Irish Water; therefore, they it has been dealing with this issue a long time. Last week the Government parties were borrowing money to buy votes to win an election. What they have done in the case of Irish Water is borrow money to establish it, although it will end up losing them votes and an election. They seem to be out of touch; their own Ministers were saying people would be charged a modest amount of money. When one is being charged over €180 for the first hour of a call-out to plug a leak and hundreds of euros annually, it is not by any standard a modest amount of money for people who are struggling and who, in many cases, only have €10 at the end of the month for discretionary spending. They keep on squeezing those in the middle with families who are struggling with mortgages and are now going to be struggling with water bills from a quango that they set up.
The Government was told not to set up this quango, but it did so anyway. Now it is crying that it is in existence even though in 2009 the establishment of Irish Water was in a Fine Gael policy paper.
Members opposite have given out about NAMA, the National Asset Management Agency, and its lack of transparency. I remind them that Fianna Fáil brought forward the NAMA transparency Bill-----
Who established NAMA in the first place? Fianna Fáil established NAMA. Those are double standards.
-----but Members opposite shot it down.
The Government is now spending the fruits of it.
They wonder why NAMA is not transparent yet they did not want to introduce a measure that would make it transparent.
Fianna Fáil could have done so when it was in government but it did not.
Our legislation would have ensured any NAMA property for sale would be put on a website and be available for all to see. This reaction from Members opposite is a bit like crying over Irish Water.
I agree with colleagues opposite who raised the issue of the recent desecration of the grave of W. T. Cosgrave. It is a disgrace that anyone would do this to a former leader and person who served this country. Although we disagree with much of what happened in the past, I agree with colleagues opposite that the desecration of his grave is an absolute disgrace.
While I agree with Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell’s amendment to the Order of Business, I am calling for a special debate on the North of Ireland. The situation there is in crisis mode. Sinn Féin and the DUP, Democratic Unionist Party, are singularly incapable of governing in the North and do not seem to want to govern. The Irish Government is also allowing the British Government and the parties in the North to direct affairs and be involved in talks, playing a backroom role itself. A recent statement from Theresa Villiers, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, referred to the subsidiary role of the Irish Republic in the talks in the North. This is a breach of the practice and agreements over the past several years. Fine Gael and the Labour Party do not have an instinctive appreciation of the relationships which helped bring about the peaceful situation in Northern Ireland. I also do not believe Sinn Féin and the DUP are capable of governing in the North without some serious input from the Irish Government. I am calling for a debate on this issue.
I am also calling on the Deputy Leader to ask the Government to take much more of a role in the North of Ireland. Deputy Eamon Gilmore, when Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, took a disgracefully side-line approach to the North.
That is unfair.
It is a fact. The current Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, is slightly more involved. He needs to get in there, however, representing this country and the people of Northern Ireland who are misgoverned by the Sinn Féin and DUP governing arrangement.
I second Senator Thomas Byrne’s amendment to the Order of Business.
Was it an amendment?
It was not actually. I called for a debate.
I am happy to support that call for a debate.
I support the call for a debate on Northern Ireland. I am glad he raised this issue because it has concerned me, as well the general public, for quite some time. With all due deference to my colleagues, Senators Mary White and Mark Daly, among others, doing great work on the Good Friday Agreement committee, we are sleepwalking through the situation in Northern Ireland. I have been following the North closely and believe it is a very fragile situation there. It is far more serious than we think. Although the focus is rightly on the terrible incident involving Ms Cahill, for which I hope she will get full justice, there is a dysfunction in governing there. Whatever about the Government here, we can have our rows and ructions between Fine Gael and the Labour Party, but they will still work together in some shape or form for what they believe is the good of the country. The two parties in the North in government cannot even look at each other.
This peace process is not finished. The actual term “peace process” has become totally devalued and we need to forget it. We need to have a fresh look at it with a new impetus from the Taoiseach. It is the one area in which he is not particularly proactive. It is important the Taoiseach of the day should give leadership. All taoisigh, going right back to W. T. Cosgrave, have shown leadership on the North. I was very shocked to hear W. T. Cosgrave’s grave was desecrated. It is an absolute disgrace because he and his family have given tremendous service to this country.
The Commission for Energy Regulation is before the environment committee today on water tariff principles and proposals.
The Government has made a hames of Irish Water. I met a number of the workers who were installing water meters over the weekend. They are not getting bonuses, nor did they draw up this crazy scheme. They are paid to install meters and have thus far installed 450,000 in extremely difficult circumstances in certain areas. As usual, the man with the shovel is getting it in the neck, although he is not responsible for what has taken place. He is earning his wages and should be respected.
Senator Darragh O'Brien raised the issue of Irish Water, which was discussed this morning when the Cabinet considered an update on issues related to it. As Ministers have been stating for some time, the Government has recognised that it must do more to ensure there is a full public understanding of the reasons for the establishment of Irish Water and full public trust in all aspects of the implementation of that decision. All of these issues are being considered carefully as a matter of priority by the Government, working with Ervia, as Bord Gáis is now known, and Irish Water. The Fianna Fáil Party signed up to introduction of water charges in the memorandum of understanding.
That is not true.
It was only three years ago.
On a point of order, the Fianna Fáil Party, led by Deputy Micheál Martin, staged a walk-out from Dáil Éireann on the day Fine Gael and the Labour Party passed the relevant legislation. The entire Opposition took part in the walk-out.
That is not a point of order.
If I am allowed to continue, I would like to provide my colleagues with the full context. To set the matter in context, as some Opposition Senators acknowledged, the House had a full debate on the Water Services Act.
The Dáil did not have a full debate on the legislation.
Please allow the Deputy Leader to reply to the questions asked from the floor.
I agree that the other House should have been given more time to debate the Bill. However, the Seanad was careful to allocate plenty of time for the debate and I am glad that we did so. The Government has reaffirmed its support for the establishment of Irish Water as a long-term strategic investment. We are conscious that Ireland is the only country in the OECD not to have water charges.
The Deputy Leader should be sure to read it out correctly.
Water is a vital natural resource and the vast majority of people agree on the need to ensure-----
The Government wants to throw John Tierney under a bus.
Please allow the Deputy Leader to continue, without interruption.
The Senators opposite clearly do not want to hear what the Government is proposing to do about Irish Water.
Senators must allow the Deputy Leader an opportunity to reply.
She should stick to the facts, rather than being unnecessarily provocative. Irish Water is a mess.
The Senator should show some respect to the House by allowing the Deputy Leader to make her contribution without interruption.
The Government has reaffirmed its commitment which was set out clearly in the legislation that Irish Water, as a public company, will not be privatised. It is important that people be aware of this. The metering programme is ahead of target and progress has been made on its roll-out. Senators are aware of the free allowances and water subsidy for social welfare recipients.
One visit to the toilet a day and one shower a week - that is what the free allowance is.
Please allow the Deputy Leader a chance to continue.
An income tax rebate of up to €100 per household was announced in the budget. Notwithstanding these measures, the Government recognises that there is significant and legitimate public concern about aspects of the roll-out of Irish Water. Many of the issues of concern are being addressed by the board and management of Ervia and Irish Water in the first instance. The term of the board of Irish Water will expire in November and the Cabinet has stated future decisions on governance arrangements at the company will be made in the coming weeks.
It may still throw the members of the board under a bus.
As several of the commentators who have been fair on this issue have pointed out, we lose 41% of water through leakages. The water system is not working because of decades of under-investment by the Fianna Fáil Party and other parties in government.
The money was spent on administration.
I am not singling out a particular Government, but there was under-investment throughout the boom years.
A bonus culture will fix the leaks. Is that the answer?
There are boil water notices in County Roscommon and elsewhere and water shortages in Dublin. The system is not working. It is fragmented and inefficient and was under the management of 34 local authorities.
It is important that we have a public utility that will seek to have a more efficient and better infrastructure for the provision of water.
On the issue of the pay structures within Irish Water, the Cabinet has stated Irish Water is a commercial State company, a public company, set up by Bord Gáis.
I thought the Deputy Leader said it was a public company.
Yes; it is a public company.
A public company with bonuses.
With the model of others such as Bord Gáis. The Senator should be aware of what we mean by "a public company".
A public company with bonuses.
Does the Deputy Leader support the bonus culture in Irish Water?
Will the Senator, please, allow the Deputy Leader to reply?
Does she support the bonus culture in Irish Water?
Will the Senator, please, allow her to reply?
These are questions to which the public want answers.
Will the Senator, please, allow the Deputy Leader to reply?
Senator Darragh O'Brien did not seek a debate on Irish Water today but Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell did. I have submitted a request that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, come to the House and I am awaiting a response. I would be happy to have the debate today or tomorrow.
Now they are worried.
Please allow the Deputy Leader to reply to the questions raised.
Turn off the tap.
Please, Senator.
I am simply trying to give a fair response.
I am trying to ensure order for the Deputy Leader. Will Senators, please, allow her to give her response?
On foot of Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell's request, I have submitted a request to the Minister's office that he come to the House and I am awaiting a response. As Senator Ned O'Sullivan acknowledged, representatives of the Commission for Energy Regulation are appearing before the Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht on the issue of charges, in particular. It is a huge issue. It is the uncertainty about money that is causing enormous concern, rightly so. At the end of my response I may have an answer for Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell.
I thank the Deputy Leader.
I ask the Senator to hold off until I know the answer. If I can, I will have the Minister in the House today and, if not, tomorrow.
Senator Darragh O'Brien has raised the issue of sex abuse in the context of the recent public concern about Maíria Cahill and the assertions, comments and statements she has made on what happened to her and the cover-up of the abuse she suffered perpetrated by senior figures in Sinn Féin-IRA. Like others, I want to be sensitive, as were Senators Darragh O'Brien and Jillian van Turnhout in their contributions on this matter. It is unfortunate that Senator David Cullinane responded in such an aggressive manner in politicising it. I want to be fair. I was on "Prime Time" last night discussing the issue, about which I spoke passionately. As a practitioner, I have represented Survivors of Abuse before the redress board. I know how much it costs people to come forward to make these disclosures and to be then treated in a way that is distrustful or disrespectful is appalling in any institution or position of power. That is a general comment on the issue.
I am glad to note that the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland has announced a review of the case - that is important - and any other that may arise. Certainly Maíria Cahill, in her brave and courageous comments, has said there will be others. The Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, has already met her, as have others, including Deputy Micheál Martin. I am aware that the Taoiseach is to meet her this week. Senator Darragh O'Brien asked about the Government's response. If the review of the Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland uncovers issues that have arisen in this jurisdiction, clearly we will need to ensure they are investigated here. We might await a further response from the Government.
Senator Darragh O'Brien asked about the Shannon Airport scheme. I have corresponded with many of the individuals who are deeply concerned about its effect and I am aware that there are ongoing issues. On the question of whether there will be amendments to the social welfare Bill, I do not know. I cannot accept the amendment proposed today, but I will be happy to make further inquiries for the Senator, as I have already done in seeking to respond to those who have corresponded with me on the issue.
Senator Michael D'Arcy raised the issue of a cover-up of child abuse, particularly in the diocese of Ferns. He is right. We have seen this happen in other institutions, too. He also raised the issue of Irish Water and one of which I had not been aware, namely, the desecration of W. T. Cosgrave's grave in Inchicore. I am concerned to hear about it and, like others, we should all condemn what happened. I am glad that it was also condemned by Senators on the other side of the House because the desecration of any grave is an appalling act of vandalism.
Senator Jillian van Turnhout raised in a very sensitive manner the concerns about the Maíria Cahill case and asked whom people in this jurisdiction should contact. Clearly, Túsla and the Garda would be the appropriate authorities. The appropriate authorities in Northern Ireland would be the PSNI and the child support services.
I am told that the Children First Bill is still awaiting Committee Stage in the Dáil. I will make inquiries to see whether it can be brought forward, but clearly it cannot be brought to this House until it has passed through the Dáil.
Like Senator Jillian van Turnhout, I am concerned to see the criminal law (sex offences) Bill being brought forward. I know that the Attorney General is looking at a number of outstanding issues, but the Bill has priority for publication. I understand it is planned to publish it before Christmas. There are a number of issues dealt with in the legislation that are of particular interest to many of us in this House, including criminalising the purchase of sex. Senator David Norris also raised this issue and disagreed fundamentally with Senator Jillian van Turnhout. I disagree with him. I am a supporter of the Turn Off the Red Light campaign and urge the Senator or anyone else who has a concern about the proposed criminalisation of the purchase of sex to examine the report of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality which was adopted unanimously with cross-party support. The report supports and recommends the introduction of new legislation to criminalise the purchase of sex in line with the Swedish approach which many of us saw in practice and were impressed by, notwithstanding any survey conducted by Queen's University, of which I am aware.
Senator John Gilroy referred to section 58 of the Mental Health Act. I know that the Senator has a long track record of raising mental health issues. I also know that that particular provision was controversial in the lifetime of the last Seanad and, as the Senator knows, attempts were made to deal with the matter. On 12 November there will be a debate in the House on suicide and mental health issues. We might try to make a concerted effort to raise that specific issue, as well as raising it directly with the Minister.
Senator Marc MacSharry referred to water charges. I have dealt with the issue of Irish Water.
Senator Catherine Noone welcomed the announcement by the Lonely Planet guide that Ireland was in the top five destinations to visit in 2015. She specifically mentioned the Wild Atlantic Way. I agree with her that it is a huge boost to the tourism industry to have such an endorsement by the Lonely Planet guide, which is hugely welcome. The policy to retain the 9% VAT rate and the development of the Wild Atlantic Way have provided a major boost for tourism and contributed to the great increase in visitor numbers which we all welcome.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell referred to Irish Water. I have responded on that issue, as well as the proposed amendment to the Order of Business. I will await the Minister's response.
Senator Lorraine Higgins referred to the sale of a NAMA site on Sir John Rogerson's Quay. There is a comment on this issue in the Irish Independent today which I read with concern. I will be happy to seek a debate with the Minister for Finance on NAMA's current strategy. Such a debate would be useful. It may also be a matter for the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, if it has not already met NAMA representatives to discuss the same issue.
Senator Sean D. Barrett raised banking issues, including some interesting points about Ulster Bank. In particular, he looked at the Central Bank's announcement of its inquiry into rogue banks. He said there were two banking inquiries at the one time after we had been waiting for so long and asked who would investigate the Central Bank.
Three.
The Oireachtas banking inquiry committee, of which Senator Sean D. Barrett and others are members, is the appropriate body to investigate the role of the Central Bank and failings in its regulation or the lack of regulation in the past. We all await the undertaking of that strand of the banking inquiry committee's investigations with anticipation.
Senator Terry Brennan mentioned the vandalising of the grave of W. T. Cosgrave. I agree with him in that regard. He also welcomed the announcement of the Lonely Planet guide.
I have commented on Senator David Cullinane's contribution. However, I was disappointed to hear such an aggressive approach being taken to this sensitive issue. It is important that we be sensitive in our treatment of it. It appears that there has been a cover-up, a point with which most people would agree.
Senator Jim D'Arcy raised the issue of cattle and sheep rustling. It is not a new crime. In fact, it was widespread in Ireland in the 19th century. I agree entirely with the Senator that it is a serious criminal matter and I will be happy to seek a debate on it with the appropriate Minister. He suggested I contact the Minister for Justice and Equality with a view to re-examining the penalties for rustling. It is already a criminal offence under the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, but the Senator's idea is that we should create a specific offence. We will ask the Minister to attend the House for such a debate. It might also be a matter for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. However, it seems that it is more of a policing issue, which may be the appropriate view to take, rather than looking at the creation of a new offence.
Senator Mary White mentioned her 2012 Bill on the compulsory retirement age and the issue of age discrimination. Like her, I was delighted to see Deputy Anne Ferris introduce a similar Bill in the Dáil. As the Senator said, there is a lottery system in the Dáil, which means that Deputy Anne Ferris's Bill cannot be guaranteed a hearing. I think we have a much better system of allocating time for Private Membes' Bills in the Seanad. I hope we can move forward with Senator Mary White's Bill if time is not made available to debate Deputy Anne Ferris's Bill in the Dáil.
I also commend Senator Mary White for introducing her Bill on parental leave. Trinity College College is organising a talk tonight on parental and paternity leave which I will be chairing. It will contrast the approach taken in Ireland with the superior approach adopted in Sweden. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fances Fitzgerald, has made positive comments on this matter on which we will all work together.
Senator Michael Mullins raised the issue of cattle rustling and called on the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House to discuss it. The Senator also pointed out that Irish Water was seeking to fix a system had been broken through decades of under-investment. He raised issues in County Roscommon in this regard and made the point that in many rural areas people were used to paying for water. This raises issues of equity as those living in urban areas may not be used to making such payments.
Senator Rónán Mullen raised the issues of Irish Water and wind farms and called for a general debate on energy pricing and security. Such a debate would be useful in anticipation of the introduction of a climate change Bill.
Senator Terry Leyden also referred to Irish Water, but I must confess that I lost track of his contribution when he spoke about a revolution in the Labour Party, of which I was not aware.
The Deputy Leader has yet to be informed.
It must be terrible not to be informed of an ongoing revolution; as the Senator was involved in the creation of the HSE, he would know about such matters.
Senator Fidelma Healy Eames referred to the case of Ms Maíria Cahill. I have addressed this issue, expressed concerns about the cover-up and how she was treated and mentioned the need for sensitivity when dealing with the survivors of sexual abuse because it is very difficult to come forward to disclose such incidents. We now know that it can take years for a person to come forward and that it can be very hard to go through the legal process.
Senator Fidelma Healy Eames also referred to the suggestion of Government hypocrisy on the issue of Irish Water. As others noted, in the 2011 general election the Senator campaigned on the back of the NewERA document.
On a point of information, I was referring to the debate in this House on Irish Water.
There is no such thing as a point of information. I ask the Senator to resume her seat.
I supported the introduction of water charges, but the way in which they have been rolled out is wrong.
The Senator was an Independent.
I ask Senator Fidelma Healy Eames to resume her seat.
We had a full debate in this House on the water services legislation.
But we did not receive answers.
Members of the House are being very hard on the Deputy Leader.
There was a far better approach taken to the debate in the Seanad than in the Dáil.
Senator Mark Daly spoke about water charges and NAMA, issues on which I have responded. He also spoke about the desecration of the grave of William T. Cosgrave. I appreciate his comments as it is important that we all condemn the desecration of any grave but particularly that of a person who played such a prominent role in Irish history and politics.
Senator Thomas Byrne referred to water charges and the situation in Northern Ireland, in respect of which he has raised a very important issue and on which I will seek a debate because he is correct that there is a crisis in governance there. Senator Sean D. Barrett recently referred to the need for vigilance to ensure we did not sleepwalk further into a crisis. While we must take proactive steps, I disagree with Senator Thomas Byrne on the approach adopted by the Government which has made strong interventions. It would be useful, however, to hear about what is going on. Senator Ned O'Sullivan also sought a debate on the situation in the North which I will be happy to seek to arrange and in which it would be useful to hear from colleagues on the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, on which I served during the last term of this House. I would like to know how its members see issues developing in the North. The Minister must come before the House to discuss the issue.
Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate with the Minister for Social Protection on the changes made to pension arrangements under the State Airports (Shannon Group) Act 2014 be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 15; Níl, 20.
Tá
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Daly, Mark.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Leyden, Terry.
- MacSharry, Marc.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
- O'Sullivan, Ned.
- Power, Averil.
- Quinn, Feargal.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- White, Mary M.
- Wilson, Diarmuid.
- Zappone, Katherine.
Níl
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- D'Arcy, Jim.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Higgins, Lorraine.
- Landy, Denis.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O'Keeffe, Susan.
- O'Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- Whelan, John.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Aideen Hayden and Michael Mullins.
Amendment declared lost.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to allow him to outline how he proposes to rectify the problems associated with Irish Water be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
No; I am not pressing it today, but I will tomorrow.
Why not press it today?
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 26; Níl, 11.
Tá
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Crown, John.
- D'Arcy, Jim.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Higgins, Lorraine.
- Kelly, John.
- Landy, Denis.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
- O'Keeffe, Susan.
- O'Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- Whelan, John.
- Zappone, Katherine.
Níl
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Daly, Mark.
- Leyden, Terry.
- MacSharry, Marc.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Sullivan, Ned.
- Power, Averil.
- Quinn, Feargal.
- White, Mary M.
- Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Aideen Hayden and Michael Mullins; Níl, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson.
Question declared carried.