The Order of Business is No. 1, Valuation (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012 - Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Vehicle Clamping Bill 2014 - Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 2.30 p.m.; and No. 3, Private Members' business, Immigration (Reform) (Regularisation of Residency Status) Bill 2014 - Second Stage, to be taken at 3.30 p.m., with the time allocated for the debate not to exceed two hours.
Order of Business
Colleagues may remember a very worthy fund-raising campaign that was all over Facebook during the summer, namely, the ice bucket challenge, in which thousands of people participated. Last night I noted that a new campaign has started on Facebook which probably marks the beginning of the end of water charges. People are now nominating each other to burn their Irish Water packs. That campaign started last night.
It started about three weeks ago.
No, on Facebook. Fewer than 500,000 people have submitted their information. News of major data protection breaches by Irish Water was verified last night. Ten cases involving individuals' personal bank details being sent to third parties have gone to the Data Protection Commissioner. The reason for all of this is because the Government tried to set up a utility without allowing enough time to do it or providing proper free allowances. It is not being done on the basis of conservation; it is basically a tax. Yesterday I called for the complete suspension of charges and a return to the drawing board. I still believe the Government will do that because, from what I saw last night, this regime under the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and Irish Water is dead in the water.
The Senator wanted to introduce it in 2012.
The Government has to realise it is not going to get its way. Instead of blaming executives and staff in Irish Water, it should take responsibility for the cack-handed way in which it tried to establish the company over the advice of independent consultants. As Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell called for yesterday, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government needs to come into the House. I am proposing an amendment to the Order of Business that he come into the House today to address the matter specifically. He should suspend water charges at this stage and address the difficulties. I am formally proposing that amendment.
I thank the Deputy Leader for facilitating a discussion on the facts that are emerging on how Sinn Féin and the IRA dealt with serious child sex abuse and rape through their own private courts and army. I fully accept what Senator Ivana Bacik said about having a debate with the Minister for Justice and Equality or the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs at the appropriate time. However, one aspect of the matter has not been considered. Have Sinn Féin and the IRA submitted lists of the people they sent away from their own communities?
The Senator's time has concluded.
I apologise, but this is important. I am calling on Sinn Féin - because I am sure it has not done it - to clarify whether An Garda Síochána and the PSNI are aware of the names of all the people that the IRA interrogated and sent away from their communities, including paedophiles and sex offenders. There could be people living in communities in Dublin, Cork, Monaghan, Belfast and Armagh who are sex offenders or who abused children but were dealt with outside the judicial systems of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and are not on any registered sex offenders list. That is a crucial point which we need to deal with. I ask that the point be raised with the Ministers for Justice and Equality and Children and Youth Affairs in order that the Government would look for Sinn Féin to furnish the list of people with which it dealt, as well as the people with whom it did not deal. We are aware of these people through the brave statements made earlier this week.
The Senator is way over time.
This is something that needs to be dealt with as a matter of urgency and I call on Sinn Féin to give its commitment that it will provide the list of people it dealt with or against whom accusations were made to the proper authorities both in the North of Ireland and in the Republic.
I was glad to hear the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government state on "Prime Time" last night that he was meeting Mr. John Tierney of Irish Water this morning and acknowledge that the Cabinet needs to reassure people and give them greater certainty on the structure and roll-out of water charges. It is difficult to listen to Fianna Fáil lecture us on this, given that it signed up to the memorandum of understanding on water charges.
It is nothing to do with that.
The troika has been gone since December.
There have been clear and serious problems with the way it has been rolled out and it is important that the Cabinet moves swiftly in this regard. I asked for the Minister to come to the House on foot of colleagues' requests yesterday, and I understand his office has responded and that the Leader will deal with the issue. I am glad of this because I think we can have a good debate on how the matter has developed since we debated, at great length, the Water Services Bill 2013.
On the Maíria Cahill case, as Senator Darragh O'Brien noted, I indicated yesterday that we should have a debate generally on the issue of cover-ups and how allegations and statements about sexual abuse are treated within institutions. That would be an important debate. Senators Darragh O'Brien and Jillian van Turnhout dealt with the matter very sensitively when they first raised it, but it was unfortunate that Senator Cullinane employed a different style of contribution. It is a very serious matter and I am glad the Taoiseach is meeting Ms Cahill today and that the Tánaiste met her last week. I understand the matter will be discussed in the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, but Senator Darragh O'Brien raised a very serious issue about the way in which abusers were dealt with by Sinn Féin-IRA and, in particular, the allegations we are hearing in respect not only of Ms Cahill but also other victims of abuse, whereby abusers were sent away. That was the way in which Sinn Féin-IRA dealt with them. We have developed careful structures to ensure abusers are not sent onwards to carry out further abuse in other areas. We have seen in the past how, tragically, abusers like Fr. Brendan Smyth were moved from parish to parish and jurisdiction to jurisdiction, abusing children wherever they went. There is a huge issue of child protection that Sinn Féin-IRA have not addressed. This is not ancient history. The abuse Ms Cahill described happened to her in the late 1990s and the interrogations she credibly claims were carried out by the IRA also happened in the late 1990s. This case raises very serious political and legal questions about child protection.
It is welcome that Trinity College Dublin is launching its five-year strategic plan for the period from 2015 to 2019. I am glad that the rebranding proposals have been dropped. A number of very controversial proposals had been made on a new crest and name for the university but they met with considerable resistance from staff, students and alumni. There is substance to the strategic plan, including in particular ambitious targets for new buildings, developing research potential and building links with international students and colleges. I wish the college well with its strategic plan which is launched today.
Yesterday I spoke about Irish Water. Senator Terry Leyden might have been correct that I was somewhat convoluted in my delivery, but I will make it simple today. Water forms 60% of our bodies and 60% of everything we eat. It is the only reason we are alive. We cannot live without it. When one establishes a monstrosity like Irish Water, one is not setting up an electricity, telephone or gas consortium. We can live without the latter but we cannot live without water. The initiation and development of Irish Water does not have the same contours, methods and systems. They cannot apply. Irish people do not know how, why, where, when or how much it will cost. It keeps changing. They have no proper outline of the matter and they do not know what is going on. If it is to be a public company - I am dubious about this - we have to be given a big say or it will become a private company down the line and we will fill the pockets of the vulture capitalists. That would be like selling off our forests, and we will end up selling off our beaches.
I want the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come here. He wanted the job very badly and I hear he has marvellous and robust talents. I would like to see his talents on display in this House while he answers our questions. I am not interested in whether he had been on RTE, BBC or Newstalk to tell the people what, why, when and where. He should come into this House to tell us, as elected or selected Members, what is going on. I call on him to come here to tell us what is going on in Irish Water. A good Government cannot allow itself to be undermined on a daily basis by the performance of Irish Water. Water is our right and we cannot live without it. It is not like gas or electricity. It is an extraordinary element in our lives, but it is being battered around. With all these consultants, vulture capitalists and profit making, it seems that is what it is becoming. The Minister is a very robust Member of the Lower House.
He should come to this House and display that robustness, not in front of the television cameras but before the Oireachtas and the Members of the Seanad. That is what the Seanad is supposed to be about. All Senators - this is not an anti-Government-----
Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?
Yes. I propose that to put our minds at rest the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, come to the House to answer urgent questions about Irish Water and the impasse to date, as a result of which the people are going crazy.
Thanks to the Leader and the Deputy Leader, there were 16 hours of debate on the water issue in this House. Nineteen of my amendments were rejected by the Minister, but the Seanad did try to play its role and improve its value. Apparently, the debate in the Dáil was completely inadequate, which is the reason many of the problems arose subsequently.
As of 8 a.m. today, permanent tsb had failed the stress tests set by the European Central Bank. This is a body which was criticising the attempt to have loan-to-value and loan-to-income ratios because it promoted bubbles in the property market. The body is 99.2% owned by the State and would be much better off looking at rules to prevent bubbles and getting its affairs in order. I sympathised with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, yesterday, as he tends to receive advice from large numbers of failed bankers and tax dodging accountants.
On a happier note, I note the tribute to Ben Bradlee, the editor of the Washington Post who died yesterday, from President Obama. He said: "For Benjamin Bradlee, journalism was more than a profession - it was a public good vital to our democracy." We all know great journalists, although we wish they would play a greater role in reporting on proceedings in this House. They are essential to democracy, which is the reason President Obama awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Ben Bradlee. When as a boy he was recovering from polio, an Irish-American Bostonian family, the Cronans, helped him back to full health; therefore, we sympathise with them today. One of his mottos was, "Hire people smarter than you are and encourage them to bloom." I find this easy to implement and recommend it to other Members of the House.
I am concerned about a letter issued by the human resources section of the Health Service Executive, HSE, to all hospitals advising them that an agency doctor can only be employed for a period of two months in a hospital. There is a huge problem because this year over €250 million will be spent on agency staff in hospitals, many of whom are junior doctors. In many smaller hospitals junior doctors comprise over 50% of all the doctors in the hospital. If this proposal is implemented, people will simply leave the country. This is not the way to do it.
I am also concerned that the letter was signed by somebody who is leaving the HSE to take up a job with another State organisation. The letter has been written and I am concerned that people will hide behind it in the next few months. We have a problem with the retention of doctors, not only Irish doctors but doctors who come here from abroad. The letter is certainly not the way to deal with the problem. There is a lack of consistency on the part of the HSE in dealing with it and a lack of long-term planning.
The previous Minister commissioned the MacCraith report, but nothing has been done to implement its recommendations. The HSE has simply left it on the shelf; it is just another report from within the HSE and the Department of Health. I am extremely concerned about the letter issued to hospital managements in this manner and the problems it will cause in the next few months. I ask the Leader to bring it to the attention of the Minister for Health and invite him to come to the House to discuss a three, four or five year plan to deal with the shortage of junior doctors in the hospital system.
I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, that No. 58, motion No. 9, be taken before No. 1. This would ensure the Seanad would consider our motion which calls on the Government to recognise formally the state of Palestine and do everything it can to help to secure a viable two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order that the citizens of both states can live together in peace and security. Twenty years after the Oslo Accords the prospects of achieving a two-state solution appear to be more remote than ever and the reason is that Israel has done everything it can to undermine the chances of achieving such an outcome. While pretending to talk peace, it has continuously intensified its illegal occupation of Palestine. Its illegal settlements on the West Bank have trebled in size as it has seized more Palestinian land and planted Israeli settlers on it. It has erected a huge separation barrier and implemented an apartheid regime on the West Bank that denies Palestinians the basic human rights their Israeli counterparts take for granted. This summer it executed its third vicious assault in six years on the people of Gaza. Any hope the Gaza ceasefire might lead to meaningful peace negotiations was quickly dashed when, within one week of agreeing to it, Israel announced yet more settlements on the West Bank. It is playing a deeply cynical, long-term game aimed at destroying any prospect of a viable Palestinian state. It has been facilitated in doing this by a largely passive international community that has stood by as Israel has wilfully violated international law and ignored countless UN resolutions. As things stand, Israel has no incentive to engage in meaningful negotiations. It has successfully used its military might time and again to ensure it holds all of the cards. Without wider recognition of the Palestinian state, Palestinian representatives have also been in a weaker position at the negotiating table. It is time to redress this balance. By joining Sweden and other EU member states in recognising Palestine we would make it clear that statehood was a right of the Palestinian people, not an Israeli bargaining chip for it to play in further sham negotiations. In so doing, we would increase pressure on Israel to pursue a genuine peace process that had a real prospect of delivering peace and justice for both Israelis and Palestinians.
Ireland has traditionally been vocal in its support for the Palestinian people and proactive in lobbying on their behalf internationally. We should now be to the forefront of efforts to secure full recognition for the Palestinian state and deliver a viable two-state solution to the conflict. Sweden is not hiding behind a common EU position-----
These are points the Senator could make during the debate.
-----or buying the Israeli line that recognition of Palestine is something in Israel's gift in future negotiations, nor should we. I thank the 31 Senators who signed our motion supporting the recognition of Palestine. I also welcome the Palestinian ambassador and his colleagues to the Visitors Gallery. We have an opportunity to do something deeply significant and symbolic. I hope colleagues on all sides of the House will support me, that the Leader will allow this debate to take place and that there will be all-party agreement on the motion.
I welcome the Palestinian ambassador and his staff to the Visitors Gallery.
Last Sunday was a relatively quiet day for sports both at national and international level, but it was one of the most important days of the year at club level. A total of 15 titles were decided last week. It was the most important day in the history of the Ballincollig club in Cork when its senior team became county champions for the first time in the club's 128 year history. Portlaoise has won eight county titles, a record, while St. Brigid's GAA Club in Roscommon has won five. However, what did we GAA enthusiasts receive from the national broadcaster? There were three minutes about soccer, two minutes about rugby and half a minute about golf, which was taking place on the other side of the world, and no information on the GAA.
That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
It is very relevant and the last time I raised the issue-----
It is an operational matter for RTE.
-----you tried to rule me out of order, but, please, give me the chance to develop the point.
The Senator is out of order.
The issue is that the State broadcaster, RTE, is refusing to give the people of Ireland information on our national games. It is the national broadcaster which is subsidised by taxpayers, yet for three years in a row it has tried to prevent ordinary people from finding out what is happening in our national games. That is surely an issue for this House to discuss. I contacted the GAA about it on two other occasions. I was told by the head of sport that it was not possible to show the results of 64 county finals in a television broadcast. There were only 15 games last Sunday and the ordinary people of Ireland who follow the GAA were told to look at the GAA and RTE websites for information.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Nobody following rugby or soccer was told to go there. It is about time RTE was brought to heel on this matter. I call on the Leader to bring in the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to put manners on RTE in relation to our entitlement to hear what is going on in the world of GAA - our national sports - on a weekly basis.
I commend Senator Averil Power for her contribution today and the motion being tabled, which Sinn Féin supports fully. It is good that it has received cross-party if not all-party support or all-Member support. To have the number of Senators who have put their names to the motion do so is excellent. We are very proud to be part of it.
Is the Senator seconding the motion?
No. I assume Fianna Fáil will do so. I will allow it to do so, but I am happy the names of the three Sinn Féin Senators are being put to it.
I raise the issue of the technological university applications and put a question on that directly to the Leader of the House. As the Leader will know, Waterford IT and Carlow IT are putting forward a joint application for a technological university. It appears that the process is stalled and there are a number of difficulties. There is political support from all Oireachtas Members and Ministers from the south east. The Minister for Education and Skills and the Government are committed to a technological university for the region. We need it and it must happen. Unfortunately, there are forces within the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Education and Skills who do not want it to happen. There are elements within the Department or the HEA who are frustrating progress. There are reports that the process is stalled because both institutes will not be able to reach the very high benchmarks which have been set. I support the high benchmarks because it is important if we have new universities that they take their place among the top universities on the island and internationally. I have no difficulty with this. There is a difficulty with the process, however, in terms of the different stages both institutes of technology are at. The Leader will know that it is a very important issue for the people of the south east. I am in no way saying this has anything to do with public representatives in the region who are absolutely united, but there are forces in either the HEA or the Department who do not want this to happen. They cannot win. They must be faced down and we need this to happen as quickly as possible. Will the Leader inform the House as to what is happening in that process? What is coming out into the public domain on the application is very worrying.
I attended the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly meeting yesterday with many colleagues and used the opportunity to raise the Maíria Cahill case. We were addressed by Dr. Andrew Murrison, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Northern Ireland Office. The same day, the justice committee in Northern Ireland had Minister David Ford before it at the behest of the chairperson there, Mr. Paul Givan MLA. I welcome that on foot of that invitation the public prosecution services in Northern Ireland announced this morning that they will hold an independent inquiry. Mr. Givan sought a statutory inquiry and I put a question in that regard to Dr. Murrison yesterday. Nevertheless, I welcome the independent inquiry and wish to ensure it will be into the three cases of alleged abuse in relation to the Maíria Cahill issue. There are probably other Maíria Cahills out there also. I note Senator Darragh O'Brien's call for the full list to be submitted. It is very important as there are those who are not as courageous as Maíria Cahill. Everyone in the Oireachtas, particularly the women, must ensure that Ms Cahill is further supported. It is fine to have a public inquiry and a television programme, but matters cannot be left to rest there. I wish to ensure we all keep shoulder to shoulder with Maíria Cahill until justice is done and seen to be done for her and everyone else. Everyone is equal under the law, politician or not.
I second the motion tabled by Senator Averil Power and signed by the majority of Members. I thank the Leader of the House who I understand will accept the motion as a unanimous decision of the Seanad. It is an historic day. As the founder of the Friends of Palestine in the Houses of the Oireachtas in 2003, I note that it is a great occasion when the independent Seanad can legally recognise the state of Palestine. It should become a fully functional state in harmony and co-operation with the State of Israel and not in conflict or competition with it. I welcome to the House the ambassador of Palestine to Ireland, Ahmed Abdelrazek, and thank him for the detailed e-mail to Members. I welcome his colleagues to the House also. I recognise also an e-mail from Boaz Modai, the ambassador from Israel, in which he urges Members not to support the motion. I can only recognise the fact. Israel is taking no action whatsoever to support the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. In fact, every move it makes, including the atrocities in the Gaza Strip where so many Palestinians died, has inflamed the passions of other adjoining states and destabilised the Middle East. I recognise today the work of the late Brian Lenihan Snr. who was Minister for Foreign Affairs in 1980. He was the first European Minister to recognise the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people. He was a man who looked to the future and he was a wonderful Minister. I am delighted to be here today to be associated with the motion proposed by Senator Averil Power who put forward an extremely good argument which I support fully. I am proud that the Seanad will recognise the state of Palestine today.
I am a signatory of Senator Averil Power's motion and ask the Leader for an early debate on it. It is official Labour Party policy to support a two-state solution.
I refer to the sale of PTSB's subprime Springboard mortgage business to Mars Capital. That loan book is valued at approximately €468 million, of which €350 million is non-performing. The sub-prime market was the worst aspect of the Celtic tiger and it is very far from the 80% loan-to-value ratios being proposed by the Governor of the Central Bank. One must ask why somebody would want to buy a non-performing loan book. There is a great deal of scepticism among people currently, particularly around rising house values, and a fear that many people in the near future will be dispossessed of their homes. These are Irish people who will lose their homes and be out on the streets to be paid for by homeless services. I have a serious issue with the fact that we still lack legislation to deal with unregulated bodies buying loan books. Mr. Jeremy Masding of PTSB has said this company will abide by the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, but those are empty words. I want to see the legislation we have been promised by the Minister for Finance to protect people in this situation. I ask the Leader to provide the House with an estimated time by which such legislation will be introduced.
I join Senator Denis Landy in his remarks on RTE's coverage of Gaelic games. It is a poor showing in respect of the county finals which are the most important thing to happen to various parishes and villages around the country and do not get the coverage they deserve.
I ruled on this matter.
That is fair enough. I take the opportunity to congratulate the Kilmallock senior hurlers on their fantastic victory at the weekend. The celebrations are probably still going on.
They are managed by a Clare man, of course.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
One second. I am just after standing up. I welcome the ambassador, Mr. Abdul Abdelrazek, to the Visitors Gallery and note my support for Senator Averil Power's proposed amendment to the Order of Business.
The Maíria Cahill case was raised a couple of times today. I took on board what Sinn Féin said about how the IRA filled a vacuum in terms of policing and that people did not have confidence in the RUC in the North. However, the regime that was put in place in terms of the police, courts and the justice doled out by republicans - I use that term very loosely - was pretty brutal. It included knee-capping, tarring and feathering and water boarding. People paid with their lives for more serious offences. Where kangaroo courts got decisions wrong there was no leave for appeal. More often than not one ended up in hospital, on the boat to England or down a bog hole. I abhor the reaction coming from the leadership of Sinn Féin on this issue. This is not about Sinn Féin being badger baited or kicked around politically. It is not a witch hunt; rather, it is about trying to get Sinn Féin and those in leadership positions in the IRA and Sinn Féin to come clean and face up to their responsibilities and the mistakes they made. The story being reported today is the most worrying so far. It concerns a kangaroo court in 2002. The excuse about a policing and justice vacuum no longer stacks up. The court to which I refer took place in the Twenty-six Counties, in County Louth, and concerns two brothers who were abused by an IRA man who was on the run.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
A mock court was held in 2002. I support Senator Darragh O'Brien. The Sinn Féin leadership has to face up to this issue. It is the same type of justice we saw take place in the Catholic Church, namely, things were covered up and perpetrators were moved on to other places to continue on. It needs to make a full disclosure to the authorities, North and South, about what it knows and who the perpetrators are in order that victims can be properly recompensed and the perpetrators exposed.
I join in the welcome to the Palestinian ambassador to the House. I compliment Senator Averil Power on her motion. Like every Member of the House, I want to see an end to the conflict between Israel and Palestine. The Government will continue to do everything possible at an international level to help to achieve this.
In the light of the fact that the economy is beginning to improve very quickly, I ask the Leader to organise a debate on the recently published national policy statement by the Government on entrepreneurship. It is a plan to deliver an ambitious increase in the number of start-ups in the next five years. It is a follow on and draws from the expert forum on entrepreneurship which was chaired by Mr. Seán O'Sullivan. Many of the recommendations in the forum were for business and private institutions, but there is much the Government can do to incentivise, support and encourage more people to start their own businesses. The Government plan is to double the number of start-ups over the next five years, to increase the number of start-ups by 25% per annum to 3,000 and to increase the survival rate in the first five years, a critical time for start-ups, by 25%. The plan sets out very clearly what the Government will do to help budding entrepreneurs, including interventions in areas such as mentoring, access to finance and education, and promoting start-ups as a career option. The measures in the plan will be implemented through An Action Plan for Jobs 2015. At this juncture it is critical that the Minister comes before the House to have a broad discussion. There are some very knowledgeable people in the House who would like to have further input into how we could continue to do things better, increase the number of start-ups and encourage young people, in particular, as they progress through education to consider start-up businesses as a future career option.
I endorse the comments of other Members on the motion regarding the establishment of a Palestinian state. I understand there will be a unanimous decision on this by the House, which I welcome. There needs to be a debate on the issue. We need to develop a strategy because for too long Israel has obstructed any final settlement on this issue. It is most unfair to the Palestinian people who also suffer at the hands of other Islamic states, which is an astonishing situation.
I am not sure whether there should be one combined debate or two separate debates on pensions and health insurance. I will let the Leader decide. I am concerned about people who try to do things for themselves, work hard to support their children and educate and provide for their families. Such middle class people drive the economy and are being hit on all sides. I am glad that the theft from their pension pots has ceased. It should never have happened. There is an issue about pensions. A majority of hardworking people do not have pensions and will rely on the State pension. The State will find it increasingly difficult to meet the demands made of it in the decades ahead. We need a debate on such people.
I refer to health insurance. A significant number of people have had to cancel health insurance policies because of their cost. It is entirely unacceptable that many costs, including the health levy imposed on the health insurance industry and charges of €700 or €800 per night for public beds, are being levied. One could get rooms in the best hotels in town for half of those prices. We need to focus on these issues. It is the essence of republicanism that we help people to help themselves, and when they do we should not penalise and make life impossible for them. A debate on these matters would be a valuable contribution to the evolution of policy in this area.
I call for debate on the way we do business. We are doing nothing to help the people in this country to access the public service. We established the HSE to replace what I considered to be a working health board system. It has been a disaster. We established Irish Water to replace the operation of the water system by county councils. They did a good job, but investment in the system when we had money was lacking by previous Governments. We also established the PCRS to replace the medical card system which worked very well at a local level. When all of them failed we blamed communications. We set up helplines. Yesterday I listened to "Liveline" and heard that Irish Water has nice people to deal with the public, but they have no solutions and cannot solve problems. We set up helplines for the HSE and had the same outcome. We set up helplines, even an Oireachtas helpline, for the PCRS. When politicians contact the PCRS to discuss people's difficulties in accessing medical cards we get the same response time and again. I am aware of hundreds of cases which are exactly the same and involve people who are the subject of a discretionary medical card and will be corresponded with in the near future. There is nothing more than this. A person who applies for a medical card and is asked for further information is given 21 days to provide it and when he or she provides it another 21 days elapses before the HSE examines the information. If there is something wrong there is a further delay of 21 days. I know of one man, who is a mature student in college, who has been waiting for a medical card for a year and is surviving on funds from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in Dublin. It is outrageous. It is important that we have a debate on the way we do business. Not everything is down to communications problems. The problem is that we changed systems which worked to those which do not. We need to debate all these issues.
I welcome and support Senator Averil Power's motion concerning the recognition of the state of Palestine.
The Cathaoirleach himself recalled the Seanad, most unusually, during the summer to discuss Gaza during the appalling onslaught on it by Israel. It is a horrifying situation to think the Euro-Med agreement is in place with human rights protocols attached to it but which are never even monitored. There were clear violations of international human rights and war crimes committed, yet we continue as if absolutely nothing had happened.
In the wider sphere of the United Nations, a majority of states now recognise Palestine including a growing number of European states such as Sweden. It would be very timely if we recognised Palestine. This should put some pressure on the state of Israel which seeks to frustrate any efforts at any stage where there is a possibility of peace. Even as we speak, the Israelis are continuing with their illegal programme of settlement development. I strongly support this motion and gather it will go through with unanimous agreement, which is significant in itself. I hope it will soon be translated into action.
I also want to raise the issue of Watergate. I am not referring to Irish Water but the death of a great man of the press, Ben Bradlee. While some Members might be too young to remember it, I recall the excitement, the cloak and dagger atmosphere of meetings in basements of government buildings in Washington, Deep Throat and the writing of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. This was real investigative journalism. We get a lot of pap in this country of prurient, poking, nosing and snivelling writing by journalists which is then dressed up as investigative journalism. Like hell it is. Anyone who wants to see what investigative journalism is, let them look at the Watergate scandal and the way it was covered by Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein under the direction of Ben Bradlee.
When I hear Senator David Norris on Ben Bradlee, he is correct on the prurient pap we are getting unfortunately.
I cannot help thinking the Member opposite is overreacting somewhat on the question on Irish Water.
Have a bonus.
I am not actually directing my comments at the Senator but at my good friend, Senator Darragh O’Brien. He likes to jump up and down and put on a bit of a dance on issues he perceives to be populist.
Is it not an issue then?
Of course, it is an issue.
Get to the point then.
The Minister is ensuring a more responsive system is put in place. This very day he is meeting with the chief executive officer of Irish Water.
That is fantastic.
Senators opposite refer to the Seanad but the environment committee, which comprises representatives from this and the other House, is examining the matter. This matter is still in its infancy.
It is on its way out.
As Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell reminded us today, water is a most important commodity, without which we cannot do, and there is a significant cost to provide it.
I reminded the House of that in a different context.
Water has to be piped and treated.
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Due to appalling construction, in one estate in Tralee, County Kerry, people are suffering lead poisoning.
And they will still have to pay for the water.
The truth is breakdowns in the water system were not being handled. What is being attempted now with the new water company will be much of an improvement.
No problem. There is nothing to see here.
Senator Paul Coghlan to continue, without interruption.
As some of us discovered in recent days, water costs in England, Scotland and Wales, run into thousands a year. Here it will be done much more cheaply and efficiently. Therefore, hold your whist a short while.
I am glad to be associated with Senator Averil Power’s motion in recognising Palestine. Senator Terry Leyden referred to the great work done by Brian Lenihan Snr. as Minister. Traditional support for the Palestinian people is deeply ingrained in the Irish people. As Minister for External Affairs, Frank Aiken spent a significant amount of time in the United Nations in the 1950s and 1960s raising the plight of the Palestinian people. The Fianna Fáil Party has a proud tradition in this regard which Senator Averil Power is upholding and following . We are glad to have cross-party support for her motion, which represents the support of the people.
Matt Cooper has a fabulous article in today’s edition of the Irish Daily Mail, which should be required reading. He asks are we brave enough to pull the plug on Irish Water. Is the Government and every other party brave enough to say a mistake was made that should never have happened? Are we brave enough to admit there will be a cost if we pull the plug but it would be far better to do so? The feedback I am getting is that there is no confidence in Irish Water. I might go so far as to say people hate Irish Water as an entity, they do not want to pay the charges and they are disgusted by the bonuses. I believe the Government will think about this again because it realises a serious mistake was made. A campaign of civil disobedience is going on with people refusing to provide their PPS numbers and return their packs to Irish Water. I support those efforts by the majority of the public. I do not believe the Government will be able to enforce water charges at this stage. Senators opposite should tell the Government this and what is really happening on the ground. It is not enough to throw somebody under a bus. As a journalist said to me yesterday, the message from the Government is it has had to stop doing this because it cannot just keep throwing people under buses. I second Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell’s proposed amendment to the Order of Business because it is an important issue. I am appealing to Senators on all sides to support it. The public is discussing the issue and the Seanad needs to do so, too.
I want to address the courageous and troubling account of the series of events raised by Maíria Cahill regarding the sexual abuse she endured as a teenager and the way in which it was handled when she came forward, particularly by the leader of the Sinn Féin Party, as well as the deputy leader, herself a woman. I call on her to state publicly if she will believe Maíria Cahill’s story. It takes the ultimate courage and strength to come forward and reveal such personal information and waive her right to anonymity as Maíria Cahill has done. I believe she should be commended on her strength, for sharing with the nation what she has endured and for her pursuit of justice and truth. The admission by the leader of Sinn Féin, Deputy Gerry Adams, that kangaroo courts were used to carry out investigations into sexual abuse allegations need to be more fully addressed by him and his party. Maíria and other victims who reported their abuse and were subjected to such a justice system are owed an apology without excuses. I believe Maíria and other victims of abuse deserve more than this from Sinn Féin. The slow trickle of information that has been dripping out, little slips and admissions in the past week on foot of a BBC programme, is wholly unacceptable. The most recent admission yesterday evening by Deputy Gerry Adams, when questioned by the media, that he acknowledged he knew of an IRA link to the Maíria Cahill case is a complete turnaround from what we got this time last week. It is time to be truthful. I welcome this morning’s news that the Oireachtas justice committee may invite Maíria Cahill and Deputy Gerry Adams. I am abhorred by this morning’s story of a second victim from County Louth backing up everything that Maíria Cahill has said about IRA-Sinn Féin treatment of abuse victims and these kangaroo courts. I welcome the move of the justice committee.
The Senator is way over time.
I also want to raise the issue of symphysiotomy payment scheme again. We were recently briefed on it and I would like if it were introduced as soon as possible.
I propose an amendment to the Order of Business seeking the attendance of the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection in the House today to outline a timeline on the critical issue of pension reform in the light of the data which came out today from the Pensions Authority. Can anyone imagine how absurd it would be if the Stated enshrined, as part of its policy, an enforcement that people who were in employment were forced to resign and go on social welfare? Can anyone imagine the State telling people we would prefer if they quit their jobs and went on social welfare?
We are doing this every day in the public service, where we have mandatory irrational anachronistic retirement ages enforced on people that bear absolutely no resemblance either to the realities of the health status of people over 60 or 65 years of age compared to the time 140 years ago when the notions of retirement and an old age pension were first introduced. As well as this, there is no recognition of the reality that we are entering a contract with people who are in the public service now, telling them that we will give them pensions that we cannot give them because the money is not there. It has come out today from the Pensions Authority that there is potentially a €440 billion long-term pension entitlement which we have exactly zero ability to sustain in the long term. We rank 20 out of 25 countries surveyed by an international pensions survey on the issue of the sustainability of our pension scheme. It is not a case of taking something away from people by telling them they will not have to retire at 65 years. We are not enforcing a mandate that a person cannot retire at 65 years, but the idea that there are plenty of people who would prefer to be on the plus side of the worker-dependent ratio is concerning and it runs the risk of completely unravelling any growth or recovery in the economy in the years to come. There is no question of taking away the opportunity and the right for them to do it.
I have seen this many times in the health service. People who were doing onerous busy jobs, seeing patients, doing operations and running research programmes one day and the next day they were coming in to clear their desk, because someone told them arbitrarily that it was time for them to become a dependent on the State. Many of them have gone on to other jobs in the State employ with their original pension. As well as this, it is relevant to what we are hearing about Irish Water. How many of the people at senior levels in Irish Water in public relations and other areas are already in receipt of State pensions?
The Senator is way over time.
There are many of them at senior level.
The system is insane. I will call for a vote to ask the Minister for Social Protection to come to the House to address the matter because this is a national emergency. It may not look like an emergency beside the next election but it certainly will be one.
I second Senator John Crown's amendment.
I commend Senator Averil Power for her amendment on the recognition of the state of Palestine. The House has been to the forefront in the matter over the years. A former Leader of the House, former Senator Mick Lanigan, was very involved. I do not intend to anticipate the current Leader, but I understand this may have the agreement of the House, in which case it would be an historic event. I wish the ambassador and his team well.
On another note entirely I call on the Minister with responsibility for trade to come to the House for a debate on the Irish textile industry, in particular the Irish menswear business. It is something I know a little about because my family was involved in the business for five generations. I did some research lately and I noted that when I took over the business from my late father in 1989 over 73% of my invoices were being paid to Irish companies. If I were still active in the business that would be down as low as 10% or 15% today. If the men present were to look inside the lapels of the jackets of their suits - mine is Magee of Donegal, by the way - many of them would see German and Italian labels. There has been a long tradition, particularly in County Donegal, in the shirt business, as Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill knows, and the suit business, which is struggling. Many jobs are at stake. Some of these are already are being sourced in Third World countries, unfortunately, to compete with the Lidls and Aldis, which are selling suits for €99. A man should see what wear he can get out of them. It is time, while there is still an Irish indigenous menswear business, be it tweed or fine cloths, to debate the matter and to try to help the business in every way we can.
The good management and governance of the House requires a little common sense, flexibility and goodwill. Appropriate and genuine Order of Business requests have been presented by Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell in respect of the water charges fiasco, as it could be called at this stage, and Senator John Crown in respect of the pension crisis. However, we should accept that if we are to have a meaningful debate on these important subjects we certainly need Ministers present. Passing motions to drag in a Minister does not always result in a positive outcome. I am keen to hear what the Leader has to say. It is imperative that both Ministers come before the House no later than next Tuesday. We need a little flexibility and we should give the Leader time.
Well said.
That is not particularly helpful.
Senator Paul Coghlan should remember to stay silent when he is winning.
I can travel some of the road with my brother.
The Senator has made his contribution.
I look forward to the Leader coming back to Senators Marie-Louise O'Donnell and John Crown. I am keen to have the respective Ministers before the House and a meaningful debate. Certainly, this should be arranged for no later than early next week, if it cannot happen today or tomorrow.
I wish to address No. 58, motion No. 9, and motion No. 10 refers. Senator Averil Power has proposed that No. 58, motion No. 9, be taken before No. 1 or No. 2. In proposing such a political manoeuvre she has outlined a strong case. Will the Leader indicate whether we will have a debate on this motion? Will we hear from the Minister? Will we be in a position to inquire about Government policy? I have a difficulty with the motion and with what I believe to be a very unbalanced presentation of middle eastern politics in the House. We see one side and only one side of the story. Historically, if we look at this area from the perspective of Israel and the broader Jewish community, this House and the other House have never been sympathetic to the state of Israel or to Jewish people and that is something we should be ashamed of. It is a small, perhaps not perfect, but functioning, democracy in a sea of general dictatorship.
Not when it bombs Gaza.
There are two sides to the story.
There should be two states.
I believe there should be two states.
The Senator is way over time.
We all recognise that there are states in the Middle East that have no wish for the state of Israel to survive and that is something we should discuss also. We need a full balanced debate not simply a call to populism. I call on the Leader to set aside time for that debate rather than simply rubber-stamping a motion which may be populist - that does not mean it is correct.
I commend Senator Averil Power for bringing forward the motion. The thrust of the motion is to have a debate and raise valid concerns. The people of Palestine deserve a sovereign right to be recognised as a state. I believe everyone in the House would support the general thrust of that notwithstanding what Senator Paul Bradford has said. Senator Averil Power has put a good deal of work into this and I hope a Minister will come to the House to discuss it. We are all keen to articulate our views in respect of supporting Senator Averil Power's motion in that regard.
I support Senator Marie-Louse O'Donnell's amendment to the Order of Business. There is a need to have a genuine and calm debate in the House on the issue surrounding Irish Water. We can all shout and play politics with it, but the reality is that we have a semi-state utility which is running away with itself. The sands are changing politically in respect of the decision-making process. Ultimately, irrespective of the current status of Irish Water, if it continues in its current form we could end up with a company being sold and people in other jurisdictions controlling the right of Irish citizens to water and that is wrong.
We need to have a debate in the House on the matter urgently and Ministers need to make themselves available for such a debate. I know the Leader is determined to bring Ministers to the House but they do not always make themselves available. On this particular issue they should do so. There are serious data protection issues and costing issues, as well as the bonus culture, the salary culture and what is happening on the ground. We could all give examples of what is happening on the ground, such as in County Donegal this morning, for example. We are keen to have a debate to articulate these views.
I call for a debate to support Senator Jim Walsh in respect of the health system. The health system accounts for approximately 30% of public spending. The Government is rolling out the idea of the money-follows-the-patient model, a model I support because I believe there is more accountability to be obtained from that model than any other.
The Senator is over time.
In the light of the Comptroller and Auditor General's recent report, I would like to have a debate on health spending.
I welcome the United States ambassador to the House for his first visit but, I hope, not his last. It is a long overdue visit. We will obviously be liaising with him in regard to the issue of the 50,000 undocumented Irish living in the United States. It is good to have a great friend of Ireland in Dublin, as well as having him with us in the Seanad today.
I, too, support Senator Averil Power's motion, which is part of a proud tradition and follows in the footsteps of Frank Aiken and Brian Lenihan Snr. Ireland understands the situation out there better than others, having put soldiers on the ground in Lebanon in trying to ensure peace in the Middle East. Peace comes dropping slow, however, and in some cases it is not coming at all. Ireland has been an honest broker in that regard and is willing to assist in any way possible to ensure peace in the Holy Land.
I join my colleagues in calling for a debate on Irish Water. It is a fiasco from start to finish. What we were told does not appear to be the truth. The Government stated it was not aware of bonuses yet it is clear it was aware of a bonus culture. The Government told us it did not believe it would cost as much as it did, yet the former Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government had memos clearly outlining that it would cost millions and billions of euro to put it in place. What we do not have from Irish Water is a plan. There is no plan to produce clean water in every house in County Kerry - none. There is a plan to give bonuses to the people who work in Irish Water, not to the people who provide the water but to those who are managing or mismanaging Irish Water. I would like to see the Minister come to the House to clearly outline the plan to put clean drinking water into every house in Ireland. All we have is a plan to tax every house in Ireland but we need a plan to give people clean water.
I support all that has been said in regard to the motion. I have no difficulty about a move towards recognising Palestine as a state. This is, in fact, policy which is accepted even by Israel itself, I believe, in terms of a two-state solution. I echo the remarks of my colleague, Senator Paul Bradford, that whenever the issue of the Middle East comes up in the House, it is one-sided, although this may not be very popular to say. We rarely hear the Israeli side of things, although it is a country whose people believe they, too, are victims. I often reflect on what might have happened last summer, in the face of the horrendous savagery that went on and the innocent people who were killed, if Israel did not have a protective shield over its own country as Hamas fired thousands of rockets into civilian areas of Israel. I certainly would not like to be living in Israel and have to be subjected to this also. It is just a small point to be made that, whenever we talk about Israeli rights, there are two sides to this story. I would be one of the harshest critics of Israeli policy towards Palestine. They are a superior power but they also see themselves as a nation under threat from those elements in Palestine who are committed to not only a political solution - the two-state solution - but also to extinguishing Israel as a state. Senator Paul Bradford's intervention is timely and appropriate and is one I would support in the context of any debate that takes place in this House about the complexities of the Middle East conflict. There are two sides to this story also.
I join other Members in welcoming the US and Palestinian ambassadors to the House.
The Moroccan ambassador is here also.
I also welcome the Moroccan ambassador. As I cannot see any of the ambassadors as they are sitting behind me, I am depending on Members on the other side of the House to inform me.
Senator Darragh O'Brien raised the question of Irish Water which was also raised by quite a number of other Members and proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, as Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell did yesterday, that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, come to the House.
I am withdrawing the amendment.
My office has been in contact with the Minister's office on several occasions in the past few weeks to ask him to come to the House and he has acceded to that request and agreed to come on 5 November. The House is not due to sit next week. If it wishes to proceed and vote on the issue, we will see how that pans out, but the Minister has agreed to come on 5 November.
A lot of water will flow under the bridge before then.
On Irish Water, certainly mistakes have been made, as the Minister has acknowledged. However, what were we to do? Should we just have adopted the Fianna Fáil policy of having a €400 flat charge for the past two years, ignored everybody else and imposed it?
It has been Fine Gael policy since 2009. It has been in charge for three and a half years.
That is not what we are trying to do. We are trying to fix the problem and make up for the errors made.
Fine Gael has been in government for three and a half years.
Order, please. The Leader to continue, without interruption.
When the country was awash with money-----
It is the Government's policy.
-----Fianna Fáil refused to deal with the problem-----
It set it up as a private entity, separate from-----
Order, please.
It is the Government's problem. It made the mess. It should clean it up and stop blaming everyone else. That does not wash anymore.
Please, Senator. The Leader to continue, without interruption.
I know that Senator Darragh O'Brien does not like to be reminded of the facts, but Fianna Fáil would not deal with the matter.
Fine Gael has been in government for three and a half years and is still not used to it.
Will the Senator, please, allow the Leader to give his response?
The Government has to take responsibility.
Will the Senator, please, allow the Leader to respond to the questions raised on the floor of the House?
(Interruptions).
I tried to answer the Senator, but he shouted me down.
I did not get an answer.
We will accept it for what it is. The Senator does not want to hear the facts.
They are not the facts.
I note the Senator's points about Sinn Féin which were also made by Senators Cáit Keane, Mary Moran and James Heffernan. It is a valid point that Sinn Féin Members should give the names of the people dealt with in the kangaroo courts, especially for child and sexual abuse. They should be forced to answer these questions, as outlined by a number of Members.
Senator Ivana Bacik also raised the issues of Sinn Féin and child protection. She lauded Trinity College Dublin for its five-year strategic plan.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell made salient points about Irish Water, having made similar points yesterday. As I stated, the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, will be in the House on 5 November when we can question him about Irish Water.
Senators Sean D. Barrett and David Norris joined in the tributes to Ben Bradlee, former editor of the Washington Post. Senator Sean D. Barrett also spoke about permanent tsb and the fact that it had failed the ECB test, about which I am sure we will hear more in the coming days.
Senator Colm Burke referred to a letter from the HSE regarding agency doctors and the problem with the retention of doctors. The Minister for Health will be in the House on 4 November to hear statements on the health service when I am sure a number of Members will address various points to him.
Senator Averil Power has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That No. 58, motion No. 9 on the recognition of a Palestinian state, be taken before No. 1."
Ireland has always had the Middle East peace process and the attainment of a negotiated two-state solution as one of the central objectives of its foreign policy. In this context, it has always been our view that formal recognition of a Palestinian state should form part of a comprehensive peace agreement. The need for urgent progress in resuming substantive peace talks and advancing the realisation of a two-state solution was one of the principal messages of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, and others who attended the Gaza reconstruction conference in Cairo on 12 October. I will, therefore, accept Senator Averil Power's amendment that the motion be taken without debate today, as a great number of Senators across the House have given it their clear support. Last week the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade was called away to attend the recommencement of talks on Northern Ireland and was unable to give us the scheduled update he had so kindly promised to give following the recall of the House during the summer to discuss the situation in Gaza. I inform the House that the statements have been rescheduled for 26 November and know that the Minister will be interested in hearing the views of Members on the motion.
Senator David Norris also referred to the position of Sweden. Despite reports, it has not yet recognised a Palestinian state. The new Swedish Government has merely announced its intention to do so and it is expected that Sweden will move to do so by the end of the year. We will be happy to hear its views when it has decided how it intends to proceed with the formal act of recognition.
Senators Denis Landy and James Heffernan mentioned the lack of coverage by RTE of national games and county finals, in particular. As the Cathaoirleach mentioned, it is a matter for RTE, but perhaps it might be raised with the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications.
Senator David Cullinane mentioned that negotiations on a technological university for the south east had stalled. That is not my information. My understanding is that the institutes in Waterford and Carlow have held ongoing negotiations which have advanced considerably. As mentioned, the Government is fully committed to having a university in the south east. If the Senator is suggesting officials or others are stalling the process, I can assure him they will not succeed. It is Government policy that the criteria will be met and that we will have a technological university in the south east. I am delighted to hear the Senator state all institutes should and must meet the criteria before a technological university can be put in place.
The Senator is missing, which is why it is quiet this week.
Senator Aideen Hayden asked when legislation would be introduced to protect people in difficulty with mortgages from sub-prime lenders that had had their loan books sold. I will inquire of the Minister for Finance when it is intended to introduce such legislation.
Senator Michael Mullins mentioned the Government report on entrepreneurship and called for a debate on the issue with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. I will try to have the Minister come to the House in early course for such a debate.
Senators Jim Walsh and John Crown mentioned pension policy and reform and called on the Minister to come to the House to address the issue. Senator Jim Walsh also mentioned the issue of health insurance. I know that we will not have the Minister for Social Protection in the House today as my office has already been in contact with her, but we will try to get her to debate the issue of pension reform. Obviously, I am unable, therefore, to accept the proposed amendment to the Order of Business.
Senator John Kelly said there was a need for a debate on the HSE, the PCRS and Irish Water to discuss how they dealt with the public and address the issues raised by him. It would be a wide-ranging debate which possibly would come under the title of public service reform. I will mention the matter to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
Senator Thomas Byrne mentioned Irish Water and asked that we pull the plug on the organisation. I do not think that would solve the problem of the need for investment in infrastructure in areas where there are boil water notices and water of poor quality. We will have the Minister in the House on 5 November to discuss the matter.
Senator Ned O'Sullivan called for a debate on the future of the textile industry. I will raise the matter with the relevant Minister.
Senators Paul Bradford and Paschal Mooney made measured comments when expressing their views on a two-state solution to the Middle East conflict. They said there was a need for a balanced debate. I hope that when we have the Minister in the House, there will be balance when discussing the matter.
Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill mentioned the health service. I can tell him that we will have the Minister for Health in the House on 4 November.
I think I have covered all of the comments made.
Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government on the difficulties in Irish Water and the question of the suspension of water charges be taken today." The amendment lapses as it has not been seconded.
Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to discuss Irish Water be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
No, I shall wait until 5 November.
People cannot wait until 5 November because they are broke. It is a disgrace that we are not debating the matter today.
Senator Averil Power has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 58, motion No. 9, be taken before No. 1." The Leader has indicated that he is prepared to accept the amendment. Is it agreed to? Agreed.
Senator John Crown has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for Social Protection on the timeline for pension reform be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes.
Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 26.
Tá
- Barrett, Sean D.
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Crown, John.
- Cullinane, David.
- Daly, Mark.
- Healy Eames, Fidelma.
- Heffernan, James.
- Leyden, Terry.
- MacSharry, Marc.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Norris, David.
- Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
- Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
- O'Brien, Darragh.
- O'Sullivan, Ned.
- Power, Averil.
- Quinn, Feargal.
- Reilly, Kathryn.
- Walsh, Jim.
- Wilson, Diarmuid.
- Zappone, Katherine.
Níl
- Bacik, Ivana.
- Brennan, Terry.
- Burke, Colm.
- Coghlan, Eamonn.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Comiskey, Michael.
- Conway, Martin.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- D'Arcy, Jim.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Gilroy, John.
- Hayden, Aideen.
- Keane, Cáit.
- Kelly, John.
- Landy, Denis.
- Mac Conghail, Fiach.
- Moloney, Marie.
- Moran, Mary.
- Mullins, Michael.
- Naughton, Hildegarde.
- Noone, Catherine.
- O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
- O'Neill, Pat.
- Sheahan, Tom.
- van Turnhout, Jillian.
- Whelan, John.
Tellers: Tá, Senators John Crown and Ned O'Sullivan; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.