Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Dec 2014

Vol. 236 No. 9

Electoral Commission: Motion

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

I move:

That Seanad Éireann, noting that:

- the agreed programme for Government 2011 to 2016 promises the establishment of an electoral commission as an integral part of political reform;

- the statement of Government priorities 2014 to 2016 reaffirms this commitment and further commits to the establishment of an electoral commission with "a view to bringing forward legislation for the establishment of such a Commission in early 2015"; and

- the fourth report of the Convention of the Constitution in August 2013 recommended the establishment of an electoral commission;

calls on:

- the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to outline the progress made in and the timetable for the establishment of an independent electoral commission.

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to the Seanad to debate an important and crucial pillar of political and electoral reform. I have a feeling we will get to know the Minister in the next couple of days when other legislation is brought before the House.

Deputy Alan Kelly

One would need a hot water bottle here.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Our group decided to put this issue before the Seanad to debate today because we are concerned about whether this is part of the Government’s agenda or whether there is any sense of its moving to legislation. Establishing an independent electoral commission would advance and enhance our democratic process, particularly as we look to the several upcoming elections and referenda due to take place in the next 18 months. We need to make sure the electoral system is robust and fit for purpose and begin to develop trust in the political system. Speaking after the Cabinet reshuffle, the Tánaiste, Deputy Joan Burton, stated: “Next year we will bring forward legislation to establish an electoral commission to ensure best practice and probity in our election processes.” As we move towards the final days of this political year, we need assurances that this area of political reform will not slip away from us.

The establishment of an electoral commission has been included in the programme for Government since 2011. It states: “Government is too centralised and unaccountable. We believe that there must also be a real shift in power from the State to the citizen”. It also states it will “establish an Electoral Commission to subsume the functions of existing bodies and the Department of the Environment”. The Minister’s predecessor did absolutely nothing about this. I congratulate the new Minister on his recent appointment as this is the first time we have met formally in the Seanad. However, the electoral commission issue cannot be pushed aside for a later time or deemed to be of less value than it is. Failures of the political system in the past decade were a key contributor to the financial crisis from which the country is recovering. We need the political reform we were promised over three years ago.

In 2008 the then Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government commissioned a study of the establishment of an electoral commission in Ireland. The report took as its starting point the commitment in the programme for Government to establish an electoral commission and envisaged five core tasks for which it should be responsible: take responsibility for electoral administration and oversight; implement modern and efficient electoral practices; revise constituency boundaries; compile a new national rolling electoral register; and take over the functions of the Standards in Public Office Commission.

My colleague, Senator Jillian van Turnhout, who will second the motion will talk about voter registration and encouraging young people to vote earlier in their lives.

The 2008 study recommended:

That an Electoral Commission should be established through the enactment of an Electoral Commission Act. This Act would establish an Electoral Commission, with its own corporate legal personality, a Chief Electoral Officer who would be civil servants of the State and a budget.

This piece of work still stands as the core research or blueprint for establishing an electoral commission in Ireland. Therefore, I do not think we need any more research, commissions or studies. The Minister and his Department have the information to hand. I want him to tell me how he intends to establish an electoral commission. We have the knowledge and the tools to move on this matter. We have done our homework and the issue has been left on a shelf in his Department since 2008.

There are many benefits if Ireland establishes an electoral commission. As the body charged with managing the electoral process, it would play a proactive role in encouraging voters by providing education and driving up voter turnout. It would produce timely and clear announcements and literature to make sure there was no confusion, particularly with regard to the wording of ballot papers. When this House was on the chopping block many complaints were made about the complex and awkward wording used on the ballot paper. Senators will remember that we were asked to vote "Yes" for the Seanad but "No" in the referendum. An electoral commission would ensure that wording would not be a problem.

An electoral commission would be charged with modernising the electoral process. It would manage voter registration. It would devise strategies and practice to make elections and referenda as efficient as they could and should be. It would bring the work currently split between county councils to one place and provide one point of contact and central administration. We cannot wait for a commission any longer. We need a more modern and cohesive electoral system with a body at the helm that we can trust. Importantly, an electoral commission would be independent of government. I do not think that the Minister of the day should be in charge of elections. It is an extraordinary undemocratic paradox.

In the 2008 study I referenced it was suggested an Irish electoral commission would have the power to conduct or commission research, and would play a strong role in monitoring the behaviour of political parties. It would make particular note of party funding practices because it would have the power to cancel the registration of a political party if it determined that the parties, through its officers or anyone authorised to act on its behalf, committed serious or repeated breaches of the obligations imposed by electoral law. Accountability in democracy is key and, therefore, we need an electoral commission established as soon as possible.

We can look at several examples of international best practice for electoral commissions. As the Minister will know, the United Kingdom's electoral commission describes itself as working to support a healthy democracy where elections and referenda are based on the principle of trust, participation and no undue influence. Its objectives are well run elections, referenda and electoral registrations along with transparency in party and election finances with a high level of compliance. It hones in on how the referendum questioning is worded and run public awareness campaigns in the run-up to elections and referendum to make sure that people know when the polls are taking place and by what date and when people need to register in order to be able to vote.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout and I sat in here and went toe to toe with the Minister's predecessor during a debate on a very inane piece of work - the narrowing the registration of voting. Both the officials and the Minister decided to vote against our amendment. Its aim was to ensure that when an election is called there is a period to register at least up to three weeks before an election. Technology is so good now that people should be able to register to vote seven working days before an election. Our amendment was voted down and the Fianna Fáil Senators, as they are now, were not even in the Chamber when we called a vote. There is an extraordinary sense of developing and encouraging distrust among citizens when it comes to elections which is not good or healthy for a modern 21st century democracy. I am not saying the majority of Irish people are not engaged or do not understand the systems in place. However, it is important that we make the process as clear cut as possible. People's lives are busy and it is easy for a referenda to creep up with voters left feeling inadequately informed or prepared.

The ridiculous fact is that we are all rushed to register people last November for a possible referenda on marriage equality next May. Everything seems to be predicated on ifs and buts which is not the way to encourage electoral participation or voter participation.

The Constitutional Convention held last year proposed, by a majority vote, the establishment of an electoral commission. The Minister has a lot of support and encouragement for doing so. I ask him, when he addresses us, to outline what discussions have taken place on this topic since he took up office. The former Minister, Mr. Phil Hogan, was a disaster when it came to participation, democracy and developing trust. I am not asking the current Minister to comment on my view, but I ask him to outline his priorities, since his appointments, as regards this issue.

The Government committed to responding to the recommendations of the Constitutional Convention. As the Tánaiste highlighted the subject only two months ago, there must be some structure or ideas in place. I ask that this House be made aware of what is proposed and that a real commitment is made on the Minister's part to follow through. We need to hear specifics before this year comes to a close and that time is now. The people are becoming disillusioned with the political process. They are regularly confronted with news of parties at loggerheads and having a lack of co-operation. People are jaded, particularly by the events of the past few months. The establishment of an electoral commission is a real opportunity for the Government to act on its promise to conduct political reform. We need specifics and I ask the Minister to give them to us today.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

I welcome the Minister and thank him for taking this Private Members' business motion.

When my colleague, Senator Mac Fiach Conghail, said he had selected this issue for his Private Members' time my first thought was that everybody agrees we should have an electoral commission. That goal is stated in the programme for Government and it has been reiterated in the statement of Government priorities, but we still do not have an electoral commission and, therefore, it is essential that we debate this issue today. Given that it has been committed to and, as Senator Fiach Mac Conghail has said, a report on the subject was carried out in 2008 entitled, Preliminary Study on the Establishment of an Electoral Commission in Ireland. There are recommendations, the groundwork has been done and we want to see it established.

The issue of keen importance to me and a key function of the electoral commission will be the reform of the electoral registration system. It would, in particular, ensure the vast majority of young people were registered to vote. We all know that one cannot vote unless one is registered to do so. What is less well known is that a large number of young people are not on the electoral register. In 1999 I was president of the National Youth Council of Ireland and we published a report entitled, Voting at the Crossroads, which found that 14% of 18 to 25 year olds were not registered to vote.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I was chair of Labour Youth that year.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

We share that commonality.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I just had flashbacks.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

Obviously the council was concerned at such high levels of non-registration. In 1999 the National Youth Council of Ireland recommended that the establishment of an electoral commission in Ireland be explored. The recommendation was made 15 years ago but nothing has been done since. In that time the level of non-registration of young people has doubled. We were concerned about non-registration 15 years ago and now we can see that figure is growing.

A few months ago the NYCI published the results of a survey which found that the level of non-registration of young people aged between 18 and 25 years was at 30%. Among 18 to 21 year olds the level is 43%. From such data we estimate that up to 138,000 young people are not on the electoral rolls which clearly demonstrates that the current electoral registration system is broken and in need of repair.

I know the staff in local authorities work extremely hard to maintain and update the electoral register. The problem is that the current system is outdated and is not fit for purpose. Some local authorities conduct door to door surveys but others do not due to staff and funding shortages. That means the level of registration and its accuracy depends on where one lives.

The current system is a 19th century system because it is based on the premise that the vast majority of people never leave the locality in which they were born and raised. However, we know that 51% of second level school leavers attend third level. Not to mention that many more leave home at 17 and 18 years of age to pursue further education, training or to take up work. These young people fall through the voter registration cracks and as a result are not registered at home or at their place of education, training or work because their lives are very transient. If we take an average 12 months of a young person's life, one will realise he or she will live in many locations during that period. Research shows us that young people who vote early in life are much more likely to continue to exercise their franchise throughout their lifetime. We all know about the first time voting experience and that people who are brought to their first vote by their parents, more traditionally, are much more likely to vote throughout the lives. On the other hand, it is much more difficult to encourage those who are not registered and who do not vote to engage in the democratic process.

The vast majority of young people want to vote but they do not know that they need to register to vote and even when they are aware they find the current system baffling, bureaucratic and cumbersome. They cannot understand why in 2014 that they have to print and fill in forms, get them stamped at a Garda station and post them to their county and city councils when in almost every other aspects of their lives it can be done online. Effectively, we are putting obstacles and barriers in their way rather than supporting them to get registered.

Organisations such as the National Youth Council of Ireland, the Union of Students of Ireland and SpunOut.ie have organised voter registration drives among young people. Their most recent was the voter registration day 2014, which centred around the 30 October deadline and focused on online and offline engagement to get young people registered to vote. I commend the organisations for what they did in that campaign. They were excellent and commendable initiatives, but we should not be relying on civil society organisations with limited resources to ensure young people can vote. We also need to point out - this was brought up at the Constitutional Convention when we examined lowering the voting age - the importance of including electoral voting, in particular, in school programmes.

On a more general note, I have heard it said in this House that often when somebody is seeking representation, Deputies will check to see if somebody has voted. People do not realise that if one does not vote, one does not have influence. I am not getting into the merits or otherwise of that system.

Deputy Alan Kelly

What the Senator is saying is true. I do not do it myself.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

Therefore, we are excluding a cohort of people. I am concerned not only about young people but also those aged 40, 50 or 60 years who have never voted. There could be literacy or access issues.

Deputy Alan Kelly

How about those who tell us they voted for us the last time and we can then check it?

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

There are big issues for people on how to vote. There have been improvements. I use checktheregister.ie to check the register and will check to see that all of my family and nephews and nieces are registered to vote, but I do this because I have a strong interest in it. If young people do not have somebody in their lives with a strong interest in encouraging them to vote, we have to ensure the system will do it. As we have seen in other countries with electoral commissions, perhaps young people on their 18th birthday might be sent a birthday card stating, "Well done", that they now have a vote and that this is how they register to vote.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

From the Minister.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Data protection might be a problem in that instance.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

We need to look at ways to ensure the electoral commission will do this.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The commission does.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

It would not be political, but if one is entitled to vote, one should know how to register to vote. This is important for the democratic process. It is not just about setting up the commission, we need to give it the staff, the resources and the time to reform. We are working with a 19th century system in the 21st century. We need everybody to be registered to vote.

An issue that came up recently when I was consulting some young people on lowering the voting age was that they said referendums affected the future of their life. We have tried but failed in our efforts to make amendments here to lower the voting age to 16 years for the European and local elections and a referendum was not required. There is a greater onus on the State with referendums announced for next May and we must ensure young people are registered to vote and that they are informed about what they are voting on. An electoral commission is the key body to play this role. I encourage the Minister to establish it without delay.

Senator Cáit Keane

I welcome the Minister to discuss this Private Members' motion. I compliment the Independent Senator on tabling it. Even though the establishment of an electoral commission is outlined in the programme for Government, it is no harm to remind the Government what is in that programme to ensure it is implemented. The establishment of an electoral commission is an integral part of that.

Since 2011, the Government has demonstrated a commitment to political reform having implemented many of the reform policies outlined in the programme for Government but obviously it is not possible to do everything at once. We have embarked on an ambitious programme of political reform. Six referenda have been put to the people and two more referenda were announced yesterday, which I welcome. We had the children's rights referendum and the establishment of a court of appeal.

The Constitutional Convention has been a huge success, acting as a platform for political ideas and debate. It has brought citizens closer to the heart of policy formation and that is very much what is required. Citizens feel disengaged and disenfranchised and they may be at the heart of the problem of why people, in particular young people, do not turn out to vote. Members of the public have been brought much closer to the legislative process but a great deal of work needs to be done. The Oireachtas committees have been reformed somewhat but not enough. The reform with regard to the pre-legislative stage allows members of the public to have an input when laws are being drafted and that is good but more needs to be done. I would welcome the establishment of an electoral commission.

The Government has a series of Dáil reforms, but often they are a one day wonder and then forgotten about. The expenses of Deputies and Senators are now vouched, and there has been 20% reduction in ministerial salaries and Ministers no longer have drivers. We have more transparency. There has been a reduction in the number of those in the public service. There has been a good deal of local government reform. The Government has added an additional 74 Dáil sitting days during its first two years in office, but, as I said, that is a one-day wonder. Much reform has taken place and it must be acknowledged, but reform in terms of the establishment of an electoral commission needs to take place rapidly.

The newly introduced system of Topical Issues provides a much better framework for Deputies to raise matters. Independent Deputies have introduced some good Private Members' Bills, some of which have been accepted in this House. Reform must continue in the Seanad and it can lead the way. We have had the introduction of a gender quota, which I welcome. It is the first in our history and I hope we will see more women being elected to Parliament.

As outlined by the previous speakers, a report of 2008, commissioned by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government recommended the establishment of an electoral commission. It outlined a range of functions the commission would be expected to perform and in which those functions would be vested simultaneously or, if not, the sequence of transfer of functions to it from, perhaps, the Standards in Public Office Commission or the amalgamation with it.

A variety of approaches have been recommended in that report and they are worthy of consideration. There were three or four options put forward in it. It would be a new body and all the functions it would be intended to perform from the beginning would be conferred on it. Obviously that would require legislation, but if that were delayed, it might be worth looking at the SIPO to see if it could be taken as a basis for the new electoral commission and the necessary amendments could be made to confer a complete set of new functions on the SIPO. It would have to be an independent body with the functions of the SIPO looking at the constituency commission, the referendum commission and the registrar of political parties. All these functions would be transferred from the Department to this independent body. Proper management of the electoral process, about which other speakers have spoken, requires attention to a wide range of matters in the lead up to every election with reviews of the constituency boundary - some counties have done very well on that but some have fallen down badly - and maintaining the register of electors.

A recommendation to be put forward is that one could register to vote online seven days before an election, but we have seen that abuse can happen here and in other countries with people trying to outdo the system. Steps would have to be taken if an online system was put in place to ensure that could not happen and that the system would be one person, one vote. The candidate nomination process, scrutinising broadcasting coverage during the election campaign, managing the vote process on polling day, the election counts and the reporting of results would have to come within the remit of this new body, as would the monitoring of the revenue-raising and expenditure of the parties. The Government has made many changes in that area and in ensuring there is transparency in revenue-raising among the political parties, which was not there previously.

In more than two thirds of the world's democracies, the bulk of these activities are carried out by an electoral commission that operates independently of government, thus ensuring a high level of electoral integrity. This has been recommended since 2008. The Government has it as a commitment in the programme for Government. The Government is totally committed to establishing it; I understand it will be established and hope the Minister will commit to a date for its establishment today and that it will be reformist and progressive.

Ireland is behind the curve internationally in having the management of our electoral process dispersed across the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the 31 local authorities and a clutch of agencies, including the Standards in Public Office Commission, the registrar of parties, the constituency commissions, referendum commission and the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. I am sure I have omitted some. The electoral commission should be given the widest possible remit. As I alluded to and as recommended in the 2008 report, the renaming of the SIPO and adding a few additional functions is not sufficient.

That would be unacceptable, not that I have heard it coming from anybody, but that is my personal view of what the electoral commission should look like. It should not be the job of the commission to oversee these roles, working in conjunction with the local authorities. Following best international practice, as in Australia and New Zealand, the commission should play a key role in modernising our archaic registration and voting process and encouraging turnout at elections.

Some other speakers referred to the proposal of giving the vote to those aged 16 years. That will help them to engage in the process. We need to ensure the citizen is central to democracy and we need to encourage participative democracy. I would like to see more of it at local authority level.

The Minister has previously stated in response to a parliamentary question in the Dáil that the Government legislation programme for autumn 2014 provides for the publication of an electoral commission Bill in 2015. We have not long to wait. It is welcome that the Department remains committed to following through on a programme for Government objective, for which I thank the Minister.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I commend the Independent Senators for tabling this motion which the Fianna Fáil Party supports. Establishing an electoral commission was a key part of the programme for Government and the pre-election promises of both Government parties. The Constitutional Convention further advocated the need for an independent commission and as part of the broader need for political reform an independent commission can play an important role in overseeing fully functional free and fair elections. Establishing a new commission will bring Ireland into line with best international practice. Research published by the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance based in Sweden shows how increasingly out of step Ireland is in not having an independent commission. Of the 156 countries they examined, Ireland is one of only 32 countries in which elections are still managed by government.

Let me give some background information. The establishment of an independent electoral commission was part of the programme for Government under the previous Fianna Fáil-Green Party Administration. In 2008 it commissioned a detailed report that examined these issues and a considerable amount of additional work was done in the Department on foot of this report, although I understand the details are not in the public domain. The Minister may have some updated information on the follow on of the Sinnott report. In short, we argue that much of the ground work necessary to establish an Irish electoral commission has been completed and all that is lacking is the political will to take the necessary action. Some of the issues it could look at would be proactively managing the process of modernising the electoral register. Since the abolition of domestic rates back in 1977 and with the rather sad decline in the active membership of the main political parties which monitored on an ongoing basis the comings and goings in their various cumann or branch areas-----

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Both dead and alive.

Senator Paschal Mooney

-----those of us in rural areas - I am sure the situation is exacerbated in urban areas - are finding it increasingly difficult because of the transient nature of the population in the past 12 to 15 years, during which the population of the country has significantly increased. There are people who one finds during the canvass are not on the register every time an election comes round. It is a citizen's responsibility to put his or her name on the register, but, unfortunately, not all citizens take their civic duty as a matter of importance. That is human nature. There needs to be some sort of overarching commission that would oversee this in conjunction with the local authorities. There is no question but that there is a flaw in how the electoral registers are drawn up. Even in this day and age of modern technology, it is extraordinary that at every election one finds that people are not on the register. Urgent work is required to look at this and see how we can address it.

In fairness to citizens - I am sure it is echoed by colleagues on all sides of the House and the Minister - people want to vote. I have found that when people discover they are not on register, they are very disappointed. Of course, the commitment of the Irish people to the democratic process is regularly confirmed by the significantly high turnout that we have across all of our elections. Sadly, there has been a dangerous decline in the turnout of the vote in referenda on the constitutional amendments. This should be addressed by making issues more clear. The referendum commission is set up especially to address that at the appropriate times. A permanent electoral commission would be able to establish the reasons that people do not vote or if the question that was put to the people was not framed properly. The commission could do this work.

There is the question of rigorously policing party finance, even though we have the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO. Would there be a continuing need for an organisation such as the SIPO if one were to establish a permanent electoral commission? Rather than having a list of quangos that are looking into the lives, times and activities of politicians and those who engage in the political process that one specific organisation could do that work. There is also a need to promote research on key questions relating to such matter as how to improve turnout and so on.

The appearance of ballot papers has changed significantly during the years. The basic structure is unchanged, even though there has been changes made, including the introduction of party logos and candidate photographs. There are counting rules. We argue that the procedure of counting votes owes more to convenience than fairness, a criticism that we have made of the system when we proposed to replace it in 1968, but it was not successful.

I acknowledge that we have set up boundary commissions on a regular basis, but it is interesting that the 1937 Constitution specified a minimum of three seats per constituency and while initially district magnitude varied between three and nine seat constituencies, large constituencies were soon discontinued. I can remember in a previous Seanad when we were debating some similar subject that I went into detail, with colleagues on all sides of the Houses, about the historical precedence that had been set by our founding fathers where, at the time of the foundation of the State, there were seven seats in the Sligo-Leitrim constituency. I know the same was true of even County Tipperary.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes, they changed in 1948.

Senator Paschal Mooney

They seemed to work. Of course, 1948 was a very significant year in that it was the establishment of the first of what my late father, God rest him, used to call the Inter-Party Government. They did not refer to a coalition but the Inter-Party Government

Deputy Alan Kelly

It would not be called that now.

Senator Paschal Mooney

Of course, it signified the rise of Clann na Talmhan, Clann na Poblachta as well as the mainstream Labour Party. The Labour Party had been split for some years prior to that between The National Labour Party and the Labour Party. That also added in a sense to the confusing mix facing the electorate.

I thank the Acting Chairman for reminding me that my time is almost up because I do not want to take the historical route, but those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it. What happened at the time parallels the current political environment where, according to opinion polls, a large group of non-aligned groups or individuals, some of whom are aspiring to start up parties of their own and others are aspiring to have particular alliances and all of seem to be joined at the hip by one constant that the existing party structures have somehow failed. I am amazed that this attitude should prevail among the public. There is no acknowledgement among this group that successive political parties contributed enormously to the development of the country from the foundation of the State in 1921. It is as if there is a blank sheet pulled down over all of the democratic structures of the State. Let us start again with a clean sheet because all else has failed. To me that is not only a narrow and dangerous view of history but it is totally at odds with the reality. Perhaps it is incumbent on us as politicians to fight the good fight and defend the democratic structures and institutions of the State.

The systems that have served the country well should continue, albeit with change to personnel. That is what democracy is all about, but the idea that we pull down all structures and start again with a blank sheet is outrageous.

Senator John Kelly

That is a valid point.

Senator Paschal Mooney

Overall, I reiterate support for and compliment the movers of the motion. I am sure the Minister will have an interesting response to the contributions made by all sides of the House on an issue that affects all of us.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Alan Kelly)

I thank the two Senators who raised this important issue. I am glad to be in the House and will be here for the next few days. It is good to come in and speak about a subject that is very important to me considering what is being debated in the other House. From a head space point of view it is quite good also. I congratulate Senator Paschal Mooney on his contribution which was excellent. All of us sitting here know exactly what he is saying. Anger is not a policy and it is not a strategy. Democracy is about argument and discussion and about how we ensure the country goes forward, not about tearing down institutions on which the State is built. I am afraid, I dare say, given what is going on in the other House, that there is an element of that creeping into society, which is about tearing down institutions. No solutions, no answers, it is about being against everything and tearing down institutions. I also thank Senator Cáit Keane for her contribution.

This is a great opportunity to discuss the whole issue of the electoral commission and electoral systems. There are few more fundamental issues to our democracy. This is an issue about which I am passionate. I may not have had the chance yet in my current role to be sufficiently passionate about it. I am a student of politics and can list off all the dates of the elections and make-up of the parties and so on. I studied politics and history in University College Cork for many years. I wrote the political history of Tipperary as my thesis which was a good grounding for me. It is a very important area for me because, I dare say, I have one opportunity, possibly in this role. I am absolutely dedicated to the commitment in the programme for Government. I do not say that here to flatter anyone. I would say that outside here, I would have said it last week, but I have not had the chance to express myself totally on this issue. However, I have been incrementally pushing everything along to ensure we get there before I leave my term of office.

As I have been criticised in the past for using the word "legacy", I will not use it again. Certainly, in this sense I want to see change. I cannot disagree with any of the points made. The situation in regard to the electoral register cannot continue. It is insane. At some point along the line we will have to say we are changing it and making it better. This is not the fault of anyone. There was a time when it was the best available but that is no longer the case. I think there is general agreement across Government, politics and parties that we need to go down this road.

I support the motion wholeheartedly. I am taking inspiration from it and the contributions I have heard. I will come back to the contributions later, as regards what I have said, and I will read them because I want to take more from it. It will probably reinvigorate me to a degree in dealing with the issue. I often find that the best debates take place in this House.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I used to sit over there.

Senator Cáit Keane

It has not deteriorated.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

In the bold corner.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I remember that.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Senators Ivana Bacik and Labhrás Ó Murchú and the Cathaoirleach remember me. In the programme for Government, in our statement of priorities, preparation work for the establishment of the electoral commission is being advanced with a view to bringing forward legislation for the establishment of such a commission in 2015. The Senator is correct that this was mentioned by the Tánaiste. We will push it. Senator fiach Mac Conghail was in charge of the citizens assembly project and, obviously, has a great deal of knowledge in this area. We can dive in and learn much from that project.

It is worth recalling also the recommendation in the fourth report of the Convention on the Constitution which is emphatic on the issue we are discussing. I believe in saying that out straight. There is no point in discussing it, it was emphatic. In April the Taoiseach confirmed what we are discussing today that it was a priority. The recommendations will be brought forward.

In examining this issue we will have to consider a number of areas. We will have to consider practices in other jurisdictions. I despise the phrase "best practice" because I believe there is just practice and learning. No model fits the same in two different areas but we have to learn from it. We will have to consider the structure of the commission, to whom it reports, or if it reports to somebody, I presume it has to report to somebody, its relationship with other bodies currently involved in electoral administration, as we cannot create a giant organisation, a filtration system across to the other organisations, the approach to be followed in regard to extensive legislation that will be required and practical matters relating to staffing, financing, funding and so on.

We all know the current position, on which I will not elaborate. All the Senators have spoken about it previously in respect of returning officers across the various electoral areas, local authorities trying to maintain registers of electors for local elections and the regulation of political funding, the role of the SIPO, the role of the Clerk of the Dáil, the whole issue of the constituency commission and the referendum commission. It is only when one sits down and looks at them that one realises the scale of the issue. It is underpinned by a significant amount of law. This is an area where we have to be circumspect because there are building blocks in place. When unravelling the building blocks, one has to be careful and ensure it is done rigorously and appropriately. That is something that is being worked on.

I have been asked deliberately by Senators what aspects the commission would look at. It should look at everything that has been stated and I would not rule anything out - the registration of voters, postal voting, voter education programmes, schools, the school curriculum and the idea of sending cards to 18 year olds, except by then it could be 16 year olds.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

Even better.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

We do not know yet. The drawing of constituency boundaries is an issue on which we may have to think outside the box and how that happens into the future. Ireland has changed. The number of Deputies per constituency is reflected in the Constitution, but there is a pull towards the conurbation of Dublin. I can see my county of Tipperary and that of Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú, to which I would be delighted to be elected, next time around, but I do not know if I will or not. If elected, I would be representing Cashel, Clonmel and all of those areas.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

Welcome.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I represented those areas before. I will probably be the only person on the ballot paper who represented both sides of the county previously, because as an MEP I represented them all. It is a source of huge regret that an area beside me, Borrisokane, Ardcroney, a part of the county has been included with County Offaly. If elected, I would still represent them because I feel duty bound to do so. That whole issue probably needs us to think outside the box. I recall the last time I had to canvass an area of County Offaly in the Tipperary constituency. To be honest, the people there did not want to be included in the Tipperary constituency, which I can understand. We need to look at all of these issues.

I will not get into the issue of the counting of surplus vote transfers, but we all know what we are talking about. The examination and design of ballot papers was diligently discussed. There is also the whole issue of running a party in relation to winning elections, political standards and how we are going to ensure all of this can be rigorously brought into a commission which can function and have the powers and ensure nothing is outstanding or left in other areas and that it can all work as one. I agree with Senator Cáit Keane that it is not just a case of extending the SIPO. There might be a process whereby the legislation across the board and particularly that regarding the SIPO could be helpful, but it is not just that.

It may be helpful in certain areas, but it is not the commission we will use.

I have spoken previously about international experience. If one looks at certain countries in Europe, one will see that they have achieved a lot of change, particularly our neighbours across the sea. Significant change has happened there from which we can learn.

I was asked specifically to talk about where we go from here. I am the type of person who prefers to address a question directly rather than beating around the bush and reading a ten-minute speech to the House. Perhaps enough did not happen in the past. I am not going to criticise, but that is a possibility. We have been edging this along and it is my intention to ensure this issue is dealt with during my tenure, assuming the Government remains in office. I am very passionate about this and hope I am showing that by my reflection on the issue. It is not something that I treat as tokenism. This is critically important and is fundamental to everything we do in this state. This is the engine oil that ensures probity and that the electoral system is working. It is the engine behind democracy. We need to ensure that it is 100% solid.

In edging forward in recent months, we have put together a consultation paper on the issues involved. I have a copy of the paper here and will be presenting it to the Government in January. Once it is agreed by the Government, I will send it to the Joint Committee on the Environment, Community and Local Government to be discussed over a number of weeks or months. I will define the timescale for those discussions because I do not think they should go on forever. I will be open to the views of the committee on the paper, but I do not want to set the timescale until the committee has seen it. Once that is done, it will come back to the Department and we will work to consolidate it, based on the views of the committee. Following that, it is my intention to develop the heads of a Bill by the middle of next year. Then, as the Tánaiste has said, by late 2015 or at the very latest early 2016, we will bring the legislation forward and move it through the Houses. Had I started in this job in 2011, this may have been done earlier. However, there was a lot going on and there still is. I am giving this House a commitment that this is the way I want this to go and I am prioritising it on that basis. It is something on which I need to deliver. I am making a commitment in this House today that I will put it to the Government in January, send it on to the joint committee and then, on the basis of the committee's response which I cannot prejudge, I will publish the heads of the Bill. They will be open for scrutiny and discussion, perhaps in this House. Subsequent to that, we will bring the legislation forward.

I am quite open on this issue. I do not think there is any monopoly of knowledge on the issue. In fact, there are different arguments around it, but there is no monopoly of knowledge. I say to members of the Opposition that their contributions on this are as valid as anyone else's in the sense that this legislation is for us all. It should be politically independent, so to speak. I was very taken by Senator Paschal Mooney's contribution. It was very fair and balanced and he adopted the right tone and attitude with regard to what we needed to do here. We need to ensure it is rigorous and done properly to achieve the best result. At the end of the day, how we run our elections is the engine behind our democracy. It ensures we have a real democracy which must be protected at all costs.

I apologise for the fact that I have to leave the House now, but there is a little Bill going through the other House for which I am responsible and which will be discussed in this House tomorrow.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

I am delighted that this motion was tabled for discussion. I compliment my colleagues on tabling it because this debate needs focus. There is not a day in the Seanad where some issue does not arise which is relevant to an electoral commission but because of the nature of debate, we just move on to a new subject. I agree with the Minister that an electoral commission should deal with all relevant issues. There is much we can learn from other countries. This is one of the few remaining countries - one out of 32 which were examined - where the government directs the elections. The independent nature of the democratic system is especially important and it must be cherished, acknowledged and activated.

One could go through a whole list of items that are relevant, as other speakers and the Minister have done. Taking the issue of the electoral registers, when one receives copies of the electoral register from the local authorities, one realises the methodology used to build those registers has not been examined for many years. It is particularly important that the system is seen to be fair, independent and above question. I am not referring to any specific issue with electoral registers, but I am aware of many complaints about them.

The methodology for voting is also important. We made an attempt to use electronic voting in the past and it is interesting to note that the issues which jettisoned that system were not major. In fact, when the system was first tested, it seemed to have worked pretty well. The arguments put forward for retaining the current system included tradition and the role of the tally. That is fair enough, but there are more intrinsically important issues involved. There was talk about the excitement created at the count centres and about the result hitting a candidate between the eyes, as we saw on television during the experiment. All of these issues can be considered, but I still maintain that the central tenet must be the democratic system and how fair and successful it is.

The constituency boundary issue is also hugely important, although it has already been debated and settled for now. The Minister referred to County Tipperary which is the one case where one has a divided county, north and south. Really and truly, though, they are as different as chalk and cheese. It is only at hurling time that Tipperary is one county. I am not saying that is wrong or right, but sometimes one will find that a county is almost disenfranchised because of the breaking of boundaries. Perhaps the jury is still out on that issue or perhaps it has been settled for all time, but I would like to see it independently examined by an electoral commission.

It is not a good idea to delay this for too long. We must get it right - of that there can be no question. There is no point in just jumping at it, as it were, but as I understand it, the electoral commission does not just deliver a report. It continues to work as a watchdog, monitoring and overseeing our system. In the context of international best practice, we are way behind.

Out of the 156 countries examined, we are one of 32 which do not have an independent system of that kind. The reason I welcome this debate - I know it is short one and we need to focus specifically on the motion - is that in preparation for the establishment of an independent electoral commission, I would like if the debate on it could be dealt with in sections and that if we had a shopping list of 20 items to be considered, that the Seanad could be used to have a detailed debate on those. Preparatory work needs to be done for it, given that we are different type of public representative because of the methodology used to elect us. We are talking here about the constituencies for Dáil Éireann. I am not suggesting it should not also consider Seanad elections, but it places the Senators in a particularly credible position to have that debate. My experience of these types of debates is that they are very seldom politically partisan. I am not saying everybody is high-principled and that they want what is best for the country, but in the main there are people on the ground who know the strengths and the weaknesses of the system. Those weaknesses have been discussed over and over again.

Much of our system of counting of votes is based on tradition, but the main issue is whether we can genuinely say it is fair. There have been many hiccups in counting votes. We need only recall the many recounts there have been generally due to there being a small margin of votes between two candidates, but when a recount took place, it was amazing how the figures changed not only once but often twice and I know that in two constituencies where it happened three times. There may have been a small margin of error involved, but nevertheless it was the difference between a person representing and not representing a constituency. I doubt if that aspect has been discussed.

Certainly we have had no conclusions on that issie and that is where an electoral commission would come in. The Government promised such a body would be established within a certain period. I am not here to question why it has been done and do not believe any of us want to score political points on an issue of this kind. If an electoral commission comes into existence, that practice will continue well into the future. If we talk about a democratic revolution and whatever that may mean, it is because people want a democratic revolution. I do not think they have a shopping list in that respect. Sometimes individuals have an issue in this respect and others may have two issues, but the only way we can bring all the issues together and focus on them and give people the feeling they had ownership over their own democracy is if there is a methodology and modus operandi for putting forward issues in a reasoned and balanced way, and currently there is not. Many citizens have question marks over our system. We often hear complaints made in discussions and many of them are groundless, but, regardless or whether they are groundless, the mere fact that there is no way to put them to bed is not good for democracy.

I hope this is only the start of a debate on this issue and that there will be other opportunities to debate it. If there are, I would like it to be broken down into sections and that two or three sections could be debated in one sitting. I compliment the Senators who tabled the motion because they are genuinely interested and concerned about our system. Life, society and everything have changed in the past 15 or 20 years. We need to have a priority for ensuring we harvest people's ideas and complaints through an electoral commission that has been promised and which everybody wants to see established. That is what would satisfy all the citizens, not only those in public life.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, to the Seanad. I very much welcome the motion tabled by our colleagues, Senators Fiach Mac Conghail and Jillian van Turnhout. It is an important motion that has given rise to a debate that has reinvigorated not only the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, but all of us in this House. I certainly find it reinvigorating and stimulating to hear the interesting views expressed and Members have been very much in harmony with each other. I believe everyone here is in agreement.

I welcome the Minister's particular and passionate personal commitment to delivering on the motion. He gave us a clear timeframe that is reasonable. We would all like to see this legislation come forward as soon as possible, but we understand it is complex. There are quite a number of issues involved and it is important we get it right. The Minister is committed to putting the consultation paper which has been prepared to the Government in January and then putting the matter to an Oireachtas joint committee, which is appropriate. It is good that the relevant joint committees will be involved in this way. The heads of a Bill will be prepared and then perhaps they will be brought to the Seanad for debate. As Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú said, that would be a useful debate to have again in this House with the heads of the Bill available to us and I think the Minister said the legislation would be introduced in the autumn 2015. That is a reasonable timeframe and I welcome that clear commitment set out so eloquently in this House. It is also welcome that he has pointed out how good the Seanad debates are generally in this sort of context.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Self-praise is no praise.

Senator Ivana Bacik

We will brush over that one. To give some context, an electoral commission is something about which there is a great deal of consensus. It was promised in the programme for Government in 2007 to 2012, as pointed out by Senator Paschal Mooney. The then Minister, John Gormley, commissioned the report that many of us have commented on and read. The Preliminary Study on the Establishment of an Electoral Commission in Ireland by political scientists and lawyers from UCD was submitted to the then Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in November 2008, but at that time, unfortunately, the report was perhaps overshadowed by other political events. The report makes very clear recommendations for reform for the establishment of an electoral commission through legislation, on which others have commented, through the enactment of an electoral commission Act, with the functions currently performed by the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, and the registrar of political parties being combined within this single body but that it would also take on a range of other functions including, the registration of political parties, the compilation of the electoral register - others have commented strongly on the current difficulties in its compilation - the delimiting of constituencies, the administration of elections, party and election funding and research and promotion. Senator Jillian van Turnhout commented on the referendum commissions and a commission is established at each referendum. The ad hoc establishment of them has given rise to problems.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

Yes, it is ad hoc.

Senator Ivana Bacik

That is a function an electoral commission should capably be able to take over. The independence of an electoral commission would be key.

Others have also commented on the Constitutional Convention, of which I was proud to be part. In May and June 2013 the convention debated the issue of Dáil reform and as part of that, considered the question of an electoral commission. There was a 97% vote in favour of the establishment of an electoral commission and very clear guidelines were given to the convention by Professor Michael Marsh from Trinity College Dublin, in particular, on how one could establish an electoral commission. Others spoke about the practice in other jurisdictions. He pointed out that the Australian electoral commission was a good model. It takes on these functions that the UCD political scientists and lawyers talked about. I was interested to note it is under the overall direction of a retired judge, who is the chairperson, and the Australian electoral commissioner has tended to be an academic or public servant and a non-judicial member, usually from the Australian statistics office - it is a tripartite function. It is an interesting model and seems particularly strong.

The UK model is somewhat different. It keeps the administration of elections effectively under local control, something which the UCD report of 2008 examined. One should not seek to reform things that do not need to be reformed. There is a strength, as the UCD report points out, to having some local role in the administration of elections. We have had some good and strong administration locally during the years. When one is critical of issues around us, for example, the distribution of surpluses and recounts, about which I have had personal experience, one should also recognise that we have a great level of expertise at that level in local authorities.

In terms of registration of parties, that is an issue in which I have a particular interest.

I represented a political party that took an appeal under the very archaic existing system. Others, including the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, have spoken about the 19th century model of voter registration. The statutory framework for the registration of political parties was set up in 1963, but it is quite archaic. The registrar of political parties who is ex officio the Clerk of the Dáil makes the initial decision, but there is an appeal board to which I appealed on behalf of my client. Unfortunately, we lost. A judge of the High Court takes an appeal and he or she has to consider whether the political entity which wishes to consider it a political party is organised, has at least 300 recorded members and fulfils a number of other criteria. The party I represented was the Cannabis Legalisation Party. I was a barrister in practice representing it. It was decided that the group was not sufficiently organised to qualify as a party. There is a question mark over why one needs to have such a procedure in place. There are cumbersome aspects to the process of voter registration but, similarly, if one starts to look at any of the many other aspects about which an electoral commission should have jurisdiction, one finds equally cumbersome and probably unnecessary impediments. There are many complex areas we must examine.

In terms of voter registration, I did love the idea of the 16th birthday or 18th birthday card reminding the individual citizen he or she is entitled to vote. Others questioned whether that could be done. Of course, the President sends a card to everyone who reaches his or her 100th birthday. Perhaps that is the model we should consider. The Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, has reminded me that in Australia there is compulsory voting. That is something I do not personally support, but, again, if we were to consider the wholesale reform envisaged in the introduction of an electoral commission, that is something that could form part of the debate. We could have a very good debate in this House. The Minister has said he will come to all issues with an open mind. However, I do not see anyone clamouring for compulsory voting in this country. The establishment of an independent electoral commission to take on the functions that are outlined in the 2008 report and that have been so wholeheartedly endorsed by the Constitutional Convention and by the Minister today would have cross-party and general societal support.

I am delighted to support the motion and that we can all work together to ensure it will happens, all going well, by the end of 2015.

Senator Fiach Mac Conghail

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, to the Seanad. I thank my colleagues across all parties and none on the excellent debate. In a way, it is very simple. We need to modernise tje electoral system. We need to drive up electoral turnout. We need to play a proactive role in encouraging voters and in providing education and research. We need to manage voter registration in a way that is technologically efficient and that is quick and easy. We need to make voting as easy as possible for citizens. That is essentially what all of us in this Chamber have agreed upon. The only way to deliver all of those things is through an independent electoral commission. We are all in agreement on that point. I welcome the cross-party support for the motion, which is about increasing trust and participation in our democracy. Both together will create a healthier, more open and engaged citizenship which is also engaged between elections.

I agree with Senator Ivana Bacik that complex issues arise in terms of the establishment of an electoral commission. The point is made in the 2008 paper from the Department. There is no easy solution. Substantial legislative scrutiny and debate and a Bill coming before the House are required to deal with it. I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment, Community and Local Government and look forward to receiving the paper when it has been considered by the Cabinet in January. I very much look forward to the committee being involved in further evidence-based consultation on the paper.

I accept that the Minister of State has not spoken yet, but it was refreshing to hear the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, speak so honestly and frankly about the slow pace of reform. It is a good start, even if it is three years late. I am encouraged by this and the fact that he saw no difficulty with the motion, agreed with it and showed his own knowledge, interest and ownership over it. I hope he will feel the invigoration in the Seanad. I wish him well. We will give him all the support we can in delivering on elemental political reform. If I understood correctly, if the heads of the Bill are published by early summer and if the Bill is discussed and goes through the Houses in the autumn, it will be ready for the next general election.

Question put and agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 5.45 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.