Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Dec 2014

Vol. 236 No. 9

Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2014 (Certified Money Bill): Report and Final Stages

Question, "That the Bill received for final consideration," put and declared carried.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

Senator Paschal Mooney

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kevin Humphreys, back to the House. As indicated on Second and Committee Stages, Fianna Fáil is supporting the Bill. However, that does not mask our deep concern - I am sure this is shared by the Minister of State and others in government - to the effect that there is a great deal of economic disadvantage among the more vulnerable in society. I hope the message which will emanate from this debate will be that the increase of €5 per month in child benefit is a welcome but modest step which perhaps heralds a new thinking on the part of the Government as we enter 2015. I also hope that when the time comes to frame next year's budget, recognition will be given to those sectors in society that have unquestionably suffered as a result of €1.6 billion in cuts to the social welfare budget. I am grateful to the Minister of State for correcting me in respect of the figure I provided in this regard on Committee Stage.

The perception - I argue it is also the reality, although the Minister of State probably differs with me in this regard - is that the most vulnerable have been hit hardest by the cuts that have been introduced and that those with more money and greater disposable income have managed to get off lightly. It is said that perception is all in politics. The Minister of State and I could argue back and forth about the merits or otherwise of budgetary policy and he would point out the positives from the Government's perspective. I am not attacking the Government, per se, I am actually seeking to reflect a concern for the body politic. If people believe there is no longer any hope for our democratic institutions and if that perception is fuelled by a certain section of the political class which emerged in recent years and which - as I noted during the debate on Private Members' business - has no respect whatsoever for the institutions of the State and is only interested in toppling them, we must remember that democracy is a very fragile flower and we all have a responsibility to ensure it is nurtured and protected. I think it was Churchill who famously observed that democracy was a flawed concept but it was the best one we had.

The Minister will understand the point I am trying to get across. I am sure there will be an acknowledgment that if the economy is turning around - I hope it is - and if surplus funds are available, it is time for such funds to be allocated, in a selective way, where they are needed. I would be the last person to argue that we should just throw money at social problems. Doing so is not always the answer. Creating proper structures and providing support for NGOs and individuals is the responsibility of the Government. The Government must also ensure that it manages the money the people contribute through taxation in a prudent and efficient manner. I hope I do not sound as if I am lecturing people because that is not my intention.

Senator Marie Moloney

I welcome the Minister of State. I also welcome the increases for which the Bill makes provision. There is no doubt that these are small - no one is saying they are not - but at least they represent a step in the right direction. While we cannot, in one fell swoop, reverse everything that was done in recent years by the Government and that which preceded it, we are moving towards giving something back to people. There has been some discussion of the introduction of a mini-budget in the spring. Whether that is true or whether it will be the case that the budget will be introduced next October as usual, I ask the Minister of State to ensure carers will be taken into consideration either way. Carers are the only people in receipt of social welfare who are obliged to work for their money. If we were to break down the payment they receive on a per-hour basis, we would see that the amount involved was miserable. The people concerned are saving the country a fortune by ensuring their loved ones and others for whom they care can remain at home. If the economy and public finances continue to improve, carers should be given priority when it comes to giving something back to the people.

One matter to which consideration should be given is that which relates to the telephone rental allowance for carers. It is vital for carers to have contact with those for whom they provide care in situations where they do not live in the same house. I am also of the view that the respite care grant should be revisited. It gives carers a break and God knows they need it. The grant ensures carers can either place their loved ones in care or pay someone to care for them at home while they take a well earned break.

It is a cliché to say, "Give something to the carers", but I ask that they be made a priority in future budgets.

I thank the Minister of State for coming. I welcome the Bill.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

I also thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kevin Humphreys, and his officials. I particularly like his constructive engagement with the House and appreciate it. The Members of the House appreciate it.

It is good to be in a position to be supportive of the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill and to see some changes. However, I reiterate the point I made on Second Stage that we need to look at how we ensure positive outcomes and that our policies are focused on the outcomes. Throughout the recession we were told that cash transfers were not the answer and investment in services and supports were how we could better address the issue. I look to the UNICEF report which I cited on how badly children fared in the recession in Ireland by comparison with those in other OECD countries going through a similar recession. If we are to look at policies, can we look at the outcomes? Can we look at children in poverty and ask what is the best way? The best way is in putting it into education and health and in putting these supports in place in order that families will have both hope, the need for which was correctly pointed to by Senator Paschal Mooney, and security. Families should know their services are secure and it is not trying to make ends meet. I encourage the Minister of State to continue in this way and thank him for his engagement.

Senator Hildegarde Naughton

I, too, thank the Minister of State and the officials in the Department. This is welcome legislation. It is the first budget in seven years where we have started to give back what was taken from the citizens due to the mismanagement of the previous Administration. The increase of €5 in child benefit will impact on more than 600,000 families. It is the start of what I believe will be the end of the sacrifices that families have made in the past three years. The increase of €9 in the living alone allowance, the partial restoration of the Christmas bonus and allowing families to retain the full qualified child increase of €29.80 per week per child for 12 months after parents return to work and 50% thereafter are all important measures that will help get people out of the difficulties they are experiencing, as is, in particular, the €2 million investment in the school programme. All of these measures are to be welcomed. It will be the start.

We really are on the road to recovery. Unfortunately, it is more on a macro than a micro level. This is the start of people feeling the impact of the progress that the Government has made in the past three to four years.

I thank the Minister of State for his time here in the Seanad. It has been most constructive.

Minister of State at the Department of Social Protection (Deputy Kevin Humphreys)

I thank Senators for their contributions in recent days. I am sorry I am a little hoarse, but I am well on the way to recovery. It is a little like recovering from a cold where a person does not believe it until they are over it.

The public listen to Members in this House talking about recovery and things getting a little better, but they have not felt it yet in their pockets or expenditure. They have not seen improvements in services. They are asking where is all this recovery that we are talking about. We have gone through seven years of difficult budgets and, as two Senators mentioned, this is the first budget where we have not taken any money away from people and have given a small amount back. I note those who are more interested in protest than in people will say it is mere crumbs, but in percentage terms, it is quite substantial.

The €5 increase in child benefit is welcome. We will be able to pay it in January due to the Bill being passed this evening. The Bill will probably be signed on Christmas Day and the increase in child benefit will be paid in January. For many families, that will be the first sign that some money is coming back into families. Likewise, I was talking to some pensioners last week who told me that the 25% Christmas bonus meant €50 to them. However, it was very welcome because, they said, it was a sign of recovery. It is when a person sees the €1 in their hand, purse or pocket. For many years, many pensioners were not in a position to buy a Christmas present and now that they will have that additional money coming into Christmas, as many Senators will agree, it makes a significant difference to these families. That is why I get so annoyed sometimes with reports which pull in these sectoral areas and state the middle-income group was not really squeezed as much as the lower income group or the higher income group was not squeezed and pensioners got off much easier than everybody else. That is not the case. Everybody has suffered in the past seven years. One can cite the proportionality of it, but if one talks to individuals, they only see the pain that they have suffered over the years or how their families have suffered.

I hope this is the beginning of what we would see as putting money back into people's pockets and a little light at the end of the tunnel. The only true way out of poverty is ensuring people get back into employment. There is €1.1 billion in labour activation measures and that will help families. There is nothing better than for a child to see his or her parents going out to work.

I support strongly Senator Jillian van Turnhout's position on services. The area-based childhood, ABC, programme, where it is being trialled, is excellent. Those are areas that we should work at and enlarge and we should look at how we can assist those. The additional €2 million for the school meals programme is excellent.

Senator Marie Moloney made good points about carers and I take them on board. On the telephone allowance, similar to the respite care grant, carers have also suffered, no matter what their income. Commentators will state the benefit is not means-tested, but during the good times, it was an acknowledgement of the amount of work that carers carried out for society.

I sincerely hope this will be the start. I hope we will be able to improve on it in the next budget and that future Governments will be able to re-establish many benefits. I hope we will move away from the scattergun approach and make evidence-based interventions because in the past there was an idea that one should throw money at it and it would be okay. That has always been the answer when there has been money around. We must be more targeted. We must look at early years intervention where children are concerned. We must look at the weaker and more vulnerable members of society.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and Senators for their contributions. I wish them and their families a very happy Christmas.

Question put and agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Senator Marie Moloney

Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.