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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Nov 2015

Vol. 243 No. 2

Commencement Matters

Forensic Science Ireland Laboratory

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, to the House.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. She will see that the motion reads that there is "the need for the Minister for Justice and Equality to outline the position regarding the provision of a purpose-built forensic science laboratory on the previously identified site in Kildare following her correspondence to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality in this regard." I have been contacted by someone in Dublin West who works in this laboratory and is very familiar with the state of play.

I thank the Minister of State for coming here to discuss the matter. The need for the provision of a purpose-built forensic science laboratory on the previously-identified site in Kildare is well established. In a letter last April to the chairman of the justice committee, Deputy David Stanton, the Minister outlined that the facilities are outdated and in need of modernisation. We know the provision of a modern, fit-for-purpose laboratory has been under consideration for some time. As such, could the Minister outline the current position in respect of the provision of this facility? The estimated cost of the project is €30 million to €40 million over a three-year period, or approximately €12 million per year over three years, and it seems there could be scope to bring this project forward at the earliest practical opportunity. I welcome the Minister of State's comments.

On behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality, I thank the Senator for raising this important matter. Forensic Science Ireland is one of the most important bodies for which the Minister is responsible. It celebrates its 40th anniversary this year and the Forensic Science Laboratory has played a major part in some of the most significant criminal trials and investigations in the history of the State. Working closely with the Garda Síochána, Forensic Science Ireland plays a crucial role in the investigation of crime. The vision of Forensic Science Ireland is "science supporting justice" and that sums up very concisely the unique and vital role this body plays in the criminal justice system and in providing evidence to the courts.

The staff of Forensic Science Ireland is mainly composed of civil servants who are highly qualified in various aspects of forensic science, including the analysis of drugs and, of course, DNA analysis. In the recent budget, the pay element of Forensic Science Ireland's budget was increased by €1.3 million, which will allow for the recruitment of extra specialist staff to meet the demands of an increasing, and increasingly diverse, workload, including in relation to the DNA database. Forensic Science Ireland will play a crucial part in the operation of the DNA database. This database, which is a long-overdue tool in our fight against crime, was provided for in the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence and DNA Database System) Act 2014. The secondary legislation and practical preparations required to operate the database are almost complete and the Minister intends to launch it very shortly.

The Senator raises an important point about the need for a modern, fit-for-purpose laboratory to replace the current facilities. There is no question that such a facility is required. Plans were first drawn up by the Office of Public Works to develop state-of-the-art facilities for Forensic Science Ireland on a site in Backweston in County Kildare during 2009. Unfortunately, the very difficult economic circumstances suffered by the State in recent years meant it was not possible to proceed with the project. The Minister was very happy, therefore, that in the recently announced capital expenditure programme an amount of money was allocated to this end. I cannot reveal the exact amount for familiar reasons of commercial sensitivity, given that we need to ensure value for money in all public building projects, but I can assure Senator Noone it is sufficient to ensure a completely new state-of-the-art facility is built. While the recently published capital programme does not envisage building beginning until 2019, the Minister wishes to make clear that the projected start date will remain under review, given the importance of this project and the pressing need for these new facilities. The Minister wishes me to advise the Senator that if an opportunity arises to bring forward the start date of construction at Backweston, this opportunity will be pursued.

I thank the Minister of State. It is not fair to press her on it, because she will not be familiar with the ins and outs of the project, but there is not much news in this for me, in that it will be, on the face of it, 2019 before construction actually begins. The money seems to be there in the new capital programme and I welcome that, but really I am none the wiser. I will correspond with the Minister on the matter.

While I am not familiar with the capital programme in respect of justice, I think it works exactly the same way in all Departments. What is essential is that the project has been given the go-ahead. There is always an amount of work to be done in terms of design, ground works, and so on. It is very clear from what the Minister is saying that if there is an opportunity for an earlier start date, that will be pursued. The Senator should keep that in mind, because there are certain projects which might be announced, but which would not be capable of going ahead. If this project were in a position to move more quickly than others, there is always the possibility of things moving faster. It happens in respect of schools and primary care centres, for instance. It is about being ready to take the opportunity. This is something that needs to be done and something that is worth doing.

Hospital Services

Fáiltím roimh an Aire Stáit. Táim ag ardú cás iontach brónach, cás Aibha Conroy, as Gabhla i gConamara, a bhásaigh go tragóideach cúpla bliain ó shin. I am raising a very sad case with the Minister of State, the case of Aibha Conroy, of which she may be well aware. It was the subject of a number of pieces on "Prime Time" recently.

Aibha was the daughter of John and Kathleen Conroy and in 2010 they noted that she was not well. She was brought to University Hospital Galway with suspected hypoglycaemia. She was discharged after a couple of days and was brought in again a couple of months later. She was seen by the same doctor, had a similar episode and was discharged once more. A little later there was an outpatient appointment where her mother raised issues. She was very concerned about her daughter's health and her situation. Perhaps a month or so later the child was hospitalised again. She was in a very serious state and was transferred to Temple Street hospital, resulting in her death, at six years of age, on 14 December 2011.

This was obviously very traumatic for the family concerned, but the issues I am raising now relate to the issues they have had since then in trying to find out what happened and to bring some kind of closure to the situation. They made complaints to the Medical Council in 2012, as far as I understand, and they felt there was a case to be heard. They were moving forward to try to have that case heard with the Medical Council and then the Corbally High Court ruling kicked in, which would have changed the terms of reference of any hearing that could have been held. They felt their hearing was then fast-tracked by the Medical Council and a finding was made before the Corbally High Court decision was made and, therefore, they are not happy that they got a proper hearing.

They felt they had no other recourse to justice than to go down the route of the Coroner's Court, so in the last two weeks, the coroner returned a verdict of medical misadventure in Aibha's case. The family said at that stage that they felt vindicated in their campaign for answers regarding Aibha's care and treatment during her short life. The coroner said the verdict of medical misadventure takes into account risk factors that arose in evidence during the inquest into Aibha's death and he identified the lack of critical blood samples to determine whether Aibha had an underlying metabolic or endocrinal issue as a risk factor and noted that the cortisol test could not be relied upon. The coroner also said there were only two verdict options open to him: medical misadventure or a narrative verdict. He is quoted in the media as saying:

At inquests we are not concerned with what might have happened, we are concerned with what happened. The critical tests were not performed.

The solicitor thanked the coroner on behalf of the family, because it was a very long sitting of the Coroner's Court. I think it was the longest one in the history of the State.

The solicitor talks about the Conroys' challenge being akin to climbing Mount Everest. They really felt they were battling against the system to find answers. Even after all that, they bear no ill-will towards any of the medics. The solicitor said at the time that the family knew none of the doctors or nurses intended this to happen. It seems to point to a systemic issue, that where certain tests were done or not done, or results should have been picked up on, that did not happen. I spoke to Kathleen Conroy recently and the family really wants to make sure something like this cannot happen again, that the systems at the Department and the Minister are taking on board what the coroner has said in his findings that the systems issues that were there, which may have led to the death of Aibha are being sorted out and that these types of things cannot happen again.

They will probably not rest assured until they see that is the case and that no other family is placed in the same position as them. I look forward to the response of the Minister of State.

I am not certain what language one should use when someone loses a child, because it is probably everyone's worst nightmare, especially when a child is of an age at which he or she is an integral part of the family. He or she would have entertained the family and driven them mad from time to time. More than anything else, he or she was a living, breathing personality. Through the Senator, I would like to convey not just my condolences but those of the Minister for Health. The loss of a child is a most tragic event whatever the circumstances, but in circumstances in which families feel it could have been avoided it is even more tragic. This week's events in the courts brought that home to us more clearly than anything else.

I am assured that, as the Senator said, a comprehensive and detailed inquest took place into this very sad death, and medical and nursing staff from Galway University Hospital fully engaged with the coroner in that process. In addition to the sworn evidence from hospital staff, I understand that the coroner was also provided with the testimony of an independent expert and that this assisted the coroner in reaching his verdict. Given the comprehensive nature of the inquest, I am informed that it is not the intention of the hospital to carry out any further review at this stage. However, I am advised by the Saolta University Health Care Group that the inquest findings will be reviewed at the next serious incident management team meeting, which is to take place on 18 November. Once the findings have been examined in detail, the group will immediately develop an action plan to identify all potential improvements in care pathways and processes. Any recommended changes will be implemented without delay in order to minimise the risk of a similar future event. The group is also in the process of recruiting a consultant paediatric endocrinologist to provide additional specialist expertise for Galway and surrounding areas. Interviews for this post, which will be based in Galway University Hospital, will take place in the coming weeks.

The delivery of health care is not without risk - I believe the Senator stated that himself - and the very understanding attitude of the Conroys shows that they accept that as well. It involves risk because, although it is improving, the science of medicine is far from perfect. The challenge we face is not the achievement of perfection but the development of a service in which the risk of harm and medical error is minimised and the capacity to identify it when it does occur is maximised.

It is equally vital that we establish the steps that need to be taken to prevent a recurrence of adverse events by ensuring that lessons are learned from situations in which error occurs and that these are shared across the system to improve the quality of care. The HSE and State Claims Agency open disclosure policy, which is designed to ensure an open and consistent approach to communication with patients and their families when things go wrong in the provision of health care, is one such system. It is important that patients and their families are kept informed and that feedback is forthcoming on investigations.

The HSE has now begun implementing the policy across all health and social care services. As the Senator will be aware, it is not just about acute hospitals. Things can happen outside that realm. Patient safety remains a key priority for me and for the Minister for Health, and we will do our utmost to support the HSE in any way possible in regard to the implementation of any additional measures arising from the outcome of this very tragic case.

I often think that even in the event of a tragic ending, it is how it is handled rather than the event itself that has the greatest impact. I know the Conroys are anxious that everything be put in place in order to ensure that no other family will face this event. I hope their efforts, together with the coroner's report and the establishment of the implementation team to ensure this does not happen again, will constitute a fitting tribute to their child, although they never wanted that. Who wants such a tribute to their child?

I concur fully with the sentiments expressed by the Minister of State at the end of her contribution. The hospital does not intend to carry out any further review at this stage and will discuss it at its serious incident management team meeting. Based on that, and because the hospital group was involved in the whole case, does the Minister of State not think there is a case for the carrying out of an independent review by the Department of Health to examine the findings of the coroner and make sure that everything that needs to be implemented will be implemented so that this type of thing cannot happen again?

An expert witness from outside of the State advised the coroner, which I have always believed is essential. I have never believed that we should investigate ourselves. Such independent expertise from outside the State is crucial. The answer reads badly in so far as it appears as though the case has been investigated and we are moving on. That is not quite what will happen. A whole new process is now in place to examine critical incidents or things that should not have happened to make sure that lessons are learned and that, in the event that any other child or adult presents in such circumstances, a process is in place to ensure that everything is picked up on. It is not simply a case of the matter being discussed at the next meeting. It is a process, and different processes will be put in place to ensure this does not happen again. As I have said, none of us can guarantee the future, something on which we can all agree. In the event that it is possible to ensure that events such as this do not happen again, the process is now being worked on.

Tourism Policy

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ring, to the House.

I thank the Minister of State for taking this Commencement Matter and welcome him to the House. The issue I am raising is very important for rural revival and the survival of rural towns and villages, particularly in my constituency of Galway East. I request that the Minister of State consider pursuing a tourism strategy that would allow for the development of additional tourist trails off the Wild Atlantic Way in order to optimise the tourism potential of towns and villages in close proximity to the successful driving route. It is time to develop tourist routes off the Wild Atlantic Way in order to bring destinations of special amenity, cultural and tourism interest into the frame and showcase all that we have in our rural communities.

As the Minister of State is well aware, visitor numbers have been very strong year-on-year, with an increase of 12.5% in overseas visits to Ireland in the first nine months of 2015 compared to the same period in 2014. We must examine the massive success of the Wild Atlantic Way, which is something of which we should all be very proud in the west of Ireland. However, we should develop it further and include towns and villages of special interest within close proximity of the driving trail, adding them as appendices to the map of the route.

It is important to give tourists choice when they are exploring new pastures. Routes could be designated as special historic, geographic, literary or cultural offshoots of the Wild Atlantic Way, thereby offering something to the more discerning traveller along the way. In particular, for places such as Gort in south Galway, which has a world-famous Yeats connection, with Thoor Ballylee and the link to Lady Augusta Gregory, it would be foolhardy, to say the least, not to optimise these connections in this way. It has to be said that the local community in Gort has done Trojan work in putting their town on the edge of the Burren on the map. I was delighted to see recently that the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, approved funding which will help bring the town to another level. The people of Gort, who are working very hard, need further rewards to spurn them on to greater things.

I thank the Senator for raising this matter. However, I should point out the respective roles of the Minister and the tourism agencies. The Minister and I set national tourism policy in order to grow a competitive and sustainable tourism industry. While my Department provides the funding for investment in tourism, it is not directly involved in the administration of funding programmes or in the development of experiences. In this context, Fáilte Ireland has operational responsibility for tourism product development, including the development of a small number of experience brands - such as, for example, the Wild Atlantic Way - that will make an impact in international markets.

The Senator is familiar with the Wild Atlantic Way and the impact it has had but it is worth reminding ourselves that the project was born out of the need to address the dramatic decline in international visitors to the west in the past decade. The route is a device to sell the unique experience of the west coast to an international market. The main objective of the Wild Atlantic Way project is to motivate more overseas visitors to visit the west, give them reasons to linger for longer and encourage them to engage with the landscape and communities along the route. As a visitor experience, the Wild Atlantic Way is all about experiencing where the land meets the sea and how the sea has shaped and influenced what happens on the land. The essence of the route is wildness, so it focuses on the wild Atlantic, hugging the coast wherever possible, and avoids dilution of the concept by straying too far inland. That said, the way is not simply a touring route, but a means to guide and attract visitors to particular areas. All villages, businesses and areas in close proximity of the route are, in essence, part of the geography of the Wild Atlantic Way. The purpose of the way is to guide visitors to what is to be seen on our western coast and to provide easy access to a range of experiences along and near the route. Communities on and near the Wild Atlantic Way are already using the route to generate more tourism traffic and revenue.

The route was developed using a collaborative approach in which regional steering groups were convened to inform the work. The process involved an extensive study of the coast and an evaluation of various route options, as well as a comprehensive process of stakeholder, community and public consultation. In total, 366 feedback submissions were made containing 862 individual comments. The eventual agreed route was the subject of capital funding in 2014 and 2015. This was initially directed towards route signage and developing the 188 discovery points along the way, including the 15 signature discovery points. Most recently, this involved the installation of "photo points" and interpretation panels at all 188 discovery and embarkation points.

Fáilte Ireland has advised me that the next phase of development of the Wild Atlantic Way includes the development of loops off the way's main spine to maximise the opportunities presented by it. Hopefully, this will spread visitors farther and encourage a more sustainable management of the environmental quality of the coastal routes. This work will involve all stakeholders in each loop, including local authorities and tourism businesses. The project is only at an early stage and the criteria for the loops, which need to ensure that they remain true to the brand of the Wild Atlantic Way, have not yet been finalised.

As someone from a rural area, I am committed to strong regional tourism through Fáilte Ireland. It is vital for the sector to increase the geographical spread of activity and the Wild Atlantic Way has been a great success in doing that. While the route is still being fully developed, it has already become a central part of our overseas promotion. That said, given how long it takes to get on the international travel map, I expect that it will be take much more time before the route starts getting the widespread recognition among potential tourists that it deserves. However, I am satisfied that it will continue bringing more overseas visitors to the west, including the Senator's county of Galway.

I thank the Minister of State for his response. He has undoubtedly done a great deal of work with tourism initiatives in his county of Mayo, on which I commend him.

The Wild Atlantic Way has been a major success. Anyone caught in a traffic jam between Kilcolgan and Kinvara understands that. I welcome the consideration of adding loops to the route. They would be beneficial for areas involved. Something of a loop is already in place in Gort in the form of the Lady Gregory and Yeats heritage trail. It should be included on a map of loops. Even an extra page on the Wild Atlantic Way's website would be an ideal reference. The Minister of State's response was welcome.

The Senator was correct to say that the Wild Atlantic Way had been a great success. It allows areas that visitors have traditionally not found to be discovered. The Senator mentioned Mayo. Let us take Erris as an example. It was a hidden gem and no one knew of its beauty, but more visitors are discovering it because of the Wild Atlantic Way and now it is flying.

I have discussed the points raised by the Senator with Fáilte Ireland. We want communities to work with it and local authorities. As the Senator correctly stated, that the route passes an area by does not mean that we cannot build facilities there to attract visitors from the way. This is what the Wild Atlantic Way is about. We are promoting this product heavily and it is beginning to win awards internationally, for example, at the recent World Travel Fair, but developing it will take ten years. We are doing something on it every year. Local authorities, communities and everyone else must buy into it. Where they have done so to date, the way is working well. Even those areas with traditionally strong tourism are finding more visitors arriving.

As the Senator stated, this will be the best year for tourism ever, not just since the recession. Last year, 7.5 million people visited Ireland. This year, we will welcome 8 million visitors. For a small country, that is brilliant. I compliment Tourism Ireland, Fáilte Ireland, my Department and local authorities. Communities have bought into the Wild Atlantic Way, Ireland's Ancient East and tourism, which is where jobs will be created in rural Ireland. I will seek the Senator's support in ensuring that the Government gives us funding as well as the chance that other areas have been given. Dublin is flying, which is creating problems in terms of prices, etc. We want to disperse more people across rural Ireland to give those areas an opportunity as well.

Ireland Strategic Investment Fund Investments

I welcome the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan.

I thank the Minister for taking the time to deal with this motion. I did not believe that it would be him who would be present.

This motion is in connection with the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF. As the Minister undoubtedly knows, part of the Government's two-pronged approach in the budget to the housing crisis was NAMA's programme to build a certain number of houses between now and 2020. Being from outside Dublin, I am concerned that some 90% of those houses will be in Dublin. It is not that Dublin does not need housing. However, more houses are needed across the country as well. We have heard this on the news constantly in recent weeks.

The second part of the approach is the ISIF offering loans to encourage investment through the private sector with a view to starting residential building throughout the country. Under the management of the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, the ISIF has joined together with KKR to establish Activate Capital, which allegedly will focus exclusively on lending to the Irish residential sector.

My concern about this is that the interest rate to be charged is as high as 14%. While that is consistent with what some of the commercial high street banks are seeking, and they are only prepared to lend up to 60% or maybe in some instances 70%, Activate Capital may consider lending up to 90%. That loan-to-value ratio would certainly be positive, but a rate of 14% is prohibitive in a market where we are not getting enough product out. I never thought I would say this, but we probably do not have enough active developers out there at the moment. Some fellows are caught up with NAMA or bankruptcy, while others are finished because their credit ratings are down and so on. That aside, however, even to encourage or breed new developers at 14%, it is not at a rate or terms that are now necessary to kick-start the market.

Can the Minister clarify whether, in fact, the rate is as high as 14%? If so, can it be revisited through the National Treasury Management Agency and its work with KKR? While we certainly want a return for the taxpayer in terms of the €500 million to be invested here, we also want to be strategic about it and ensure that we get the desired output. We do not just want to make profits for the NTMA or KKR, the private sector aspect to the fund; we also want to see housing built and developments throughout the country, whether in Limerick, Sligo or with additional resources in Dublin where we know they are much needed. It will be done at rates that take a margin for the State but also make it sufficiently attractive to breed new development and new developers to get much needed housing throughout the country.

I thank Senator MacSharry for raising this important issue. Senators will be aware that Activate Capital, known as Activate, is a new and innovative non-bank financing platform that has been established by the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, and the global investment group KKR. Activate Capital will invest on a commercial basis in residential development projects in Ireland, which will help to address the current supply shortages in the main urban centres. Activate is focused exclusively on lending to Irish residential projects and will target, in particular, new residential development in the greater Dublin area, Cork, Limerick and Galway, all of which have been identified as the areas of greatest demand. However, outstanding activity is not confined to those locations.

Activate is a €500 million fund, which is financed through a €325 million loan note provided from ISIF and a €175 million loan note provided from KKR. The ISIF's investment is fully consistent with its mandate to invest on a commercial basis to support economic activity and employment in Ireland.

The €500 million represents the peak funding outlay at any one time, but as borrowings are repaid this will create additional lending capacity over and above the original €500 million. It is estimated that Activate will, in this way, be capable of financing the construction of over 11,000 new homes in Ireland.

This is clearly a very important initiative given that new housing output continues to fall short of demand. It should be noted that, in addition to its direct impact, Activate is also introducing competition to the market for development financing and should, in this way, result in more competitive and attractive terms for borrowers across all lenders in the real estate sector.

House building of the scale envisaged under the Activate initiative is expected to support approximately 1,900 direct and indirect jobs in the house building sector, which will further underpin measures that have been introduced to return construction output and employment in Ireland to more sustainable levels so that it is capable of meeting the growth needs of the Irish economy.

Activate uniquely will provide up to 90% of project funding and will provide funding for both the acquisition of land and to bring projects through the planning process. Irish banks will currently not lend for site acquisition or to fund project design and planning processes.

It is useful for Senators to note that Activate also offers the advantages of both deliverability and speed of execution. The Activate model is capable of substantially quicker credit turnaround times than average timeframes currently in the market place given the requirement, typically, for project promoters to deal with more than one lender and sometimes multiple lenders.

On the issue of lending rates, the ISIF informs me that the Activate base lending rate is in the order of 10% approximately. As would be expected for projects of this nature, there is participation in equity upside if projects are successful so that the fund, and by extension taxpayers, share in any gains alongside the project promoter.

The pricing for Activate facilities reflects the provision of up to 90% of overall development costs compared to typically up to 60% provided by the traditional bank capital, and the fact that it is, in effect, taking a combination of debt and equity risk. The alternative for project promoters currently is to seek debt and equity funding, if available, from a number of different lenders.

I thank the Minister for that clarification. The base rate and actual rate are two different things. Sometimes the old bankers are very good at telling us the APR and so on. I ask the Minister to query it with his officials because I do have concerns that it is higher than 10%. Second, where possible, we should encourage more imagination in terms of taking equity in projects and maybe letting finance out there a little bit cheaper. It will be better for the State as well. It is not to make profit for developers but ultimately to get activity in the market so that we get what we want, namely, housing for people.

The strategic investment fund is obliged by law to lend commercially and get a commercial return on its lending. The base rate is 10% but in individual projects the rate would be higher than that. In addition, if one has a successful project and allows for the fact that there is participation in profitability because they are providing equity, it grosses out at around the figure the Senator mentioned. However, we will keep it under review. The decision will be for the fund itself and for the NTMA ultimately, but they know the situation and they are not in the business of trying to make enormous profits. They simply want to lend commercially to provide the kind of credit facilities that are necessary and we now have.

Sitting suspended at 11.18 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.
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