Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 2015

Vol. 243 No. 5

Education (Welfare) (Amendment) Bill 2015: Second Stage

I welcome the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy O'Sullivan.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, to the House. I understand we are to be joined by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly, who will also contribute to the Bill I have proposed, the Education (Welfare) (Amendment) Bill 2015.

The purpose of the Bill is to amend the Education (Welfare) Act 2000 to increase the minimum school age from 16 to 17 and to allow vocational apprenticeships, the primary purpose of which are educational, to count as school attendance. The Bill also proposes to amend the Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Act 1996 and change the minimum age of employment for young people from 16 to 17. I hope it is not a sign of things to come but as I was preparing my speech for the debate, my computer blew up so please excuse me if I go from one to the other. It literally blew up while I was typing not that there was anything explosive in it.

The Bill comprises five sections. Section 1 deals with the amendment of the Education (Welfare) Act 2000. Section 2 deals with the amendment of the Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Act 1996. Section 3 deals with vocational apprenticeships. Section 4 deals with the commencement and section 5 deals with the Short Title and collective citation.

I am delighted the both Ministers, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, and Deputy James Reilly, will contribute to the debate because while primary responsibility for the implementation of any amendment to the Education (Welfare) Act 2000 lies with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, the Minister for Education and Skills retains responsibility for a number of schools and further education and training related provisions. While it is the Department of the Minister, Deputy Reilly, which has responsibility for setting the school leaving age, the proposals contained in the Bill also impact on the policy remit of the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. This is a good all-rounder and is cross-departmental and we need to see more of this.

As spokesperson for education and as a person with many years experience in the classroom and having seen young people leave school at a young age with no formal qualification, I hope this Bill will improve the lives of young people by ensuring they have a better education and or qualification on leaving. That was the purpose behind drafting this Bill.

In 1972 the school leaving age increased from 14 to 15 years of age. The Education (Welfare) Act 2000 increased the age to 16 years or on completion of three years of secondary education whichever is the later. Thankfully, I have noticed a decrease in the number of early school leavers in latter years. In fact, Ireland's early school leaver rate has dropped from 9.7% in 2012 to 6.9% in 2014, which is well below the EU average of 11.2% for 2014. When all the EU countries are considered, Ireland is ranked tenth out of 28 and below our target under the Europe 2020 strategy, so we are well on course. It is clear that many students are staying on to complete the leaving certificate.

The figures for the junior certificate released by the Department of Education and Skills' analysis of school retention rates among State aided schools last February noted that from the numbers who enrolled in 2008, as first time enrolments, 96.8% sat the junior certificate in 2011 or 2012 and 90% sat the leaving certificate in 2013 or 2014. The numbers are also increasing in DEIS schools in recent years with its current level at 82.1%. The discrepancy between DEIS and non-DEIS schools is clear. While these figures are encouraging, it is important that we do more to ensure our young people, particularly those in DEIS schools, get every opportunity and encouragement to stay at school until at least the age of 17 years.

The report notes that the true education retention figure comparable to upper secondary level education is probably higher as the report does not have any analysis of students who pursue different educational pathways which can provide qualifications equivalent to that of the leaving certificate or the national framework of qualifications. For example, some apprenticeships, PLC courses and so on can attain level four and level five on the national framework of qualifications which is the same as the leaving certificate but are not included on the retention analysis. My colleague will address the issue of apprenticeships.

Ó Fiaich College in my hometown of Dundalk is very supportive of young people who have left school early. Recently, it has introduced a level four course for people who left school early and who wish to return to education. It is brilliant that colleges and institutes are doing so much to encourage people back into education. Dundalk Institute of Technology, one of the leading institutes of technology, is offering opportunities to further study for people who have completed apprenticeships and qualifications to move up the scale to a level six or level seven qualification.

It is appropriate to note that of almost 3,000 apprenticeships registered with SOLAS in 2014, only 1% was 16 years of age, 4% were aged 17 or 18, 19% were aged 19, 15% were aged 20 and 44% were aged over 22. It is good to note they are staying on. Some 25% of these apprentices had completed the junior certificate and 68% had completed the leaving certificate, with 7% having other qualifications.

Figures indicate that the majority of dropout at second level occurs between fifth and sixth year or within the last two years in school, with 3.5% leaving school around this time. It is probably the most vulnerable time when they are growing up and asking what their chances are. Around this age, it is important to try to hold on to them in school. Approximately 2% leave school directly after the junior certificate.

The Department of Education and Skills undertook a report on early school leavers from post-primary schools, pupils enrolled in 2009-10 but not in 2010-11, entitled Early Leavers - What Next?, which showed that a considerable proportion entered other forms of education or training. Almost 70% had moved into PLC courses, FÁS courses, education or training outside the State, Youthreach or private educational institutions.

We need to address the reasons for early school leaving. A school leavers' survey was conducted by the Department of Education and Skills in 2007, eight years ago, but the reasons for leaving then are still pertinent today. Some 62% of those who left school early cited school factors as the reason, 60% cited economic or work factors, 14% family factors and 5% health factors. A further study by the ESRI in 2010 on the dynamics of early school leaving noted that those who left school early did so because they felt rejected by the school, reporting a lack of encouragement from the school or, in some cases, being expelled. Some felt rejection of the school, dislike of school, rules, teachers or other students or feelings of under achievement. Labour market opportunities were also cited as were personal issues and sometimes a combination of all four. Even since 2010, schools around the country are doing what they can to improve and to encourage students to stay. When the new junior certificate comes on stream the syllabi will be even more interesting and will relate to the person's individuality and interest. That will be another positive step forward.

Thankfully, the vast majority of our students today sail through school with no problems and complete their education at 17 or 18 years. However, it is the small minority who need encouragement. We have many resources and second chance opportunities such as Youthreach, community training centres and apprenticeships.

In regard to Traveller culture, I have known students who have left school immediately after the junior certificate or on their 16th birthday in order to marry. I have spoken before of one particular student I had who was particularly gifted at school but who did not return after her junior certificate. Within two years, she had three small children. We need to ensure that every pathway is available for these people to return to education and when they make the decision to leave that the door is always open for them to come back into education.

I have met students who left school at 16. Many of them could not wait to reach 16 so they could do so. I also recall meeting one such student, a girl, when she was 19 years of age and working in a shop, and she told me she wished she had stayed at school. It is important we get the information out to these students, many of whom do not know about the opportunities available to them to return to education.

I thank the Minister for coming to the House to deal with this Bill. I accept that there are issues surrounding certain aspects of it but I am confident that these can be agreed without difficulty. I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy O'Sullivan, to the House and note that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Reilly, will also be participating in this debate later. It is great that two high-profile Ministers have taken an interest in this Bill and that it is to be accepted.

The purpose of this Bill is to ensure children remain in formal education as long as possible. For those who are interested in education and want to have a leaving certificate behind them or go on to college, this Bill will have no affect at all. It is highly unlikely that children as young as 16 years would sit the leaving certificate examination. Ensuring children continue in education and training until the age of 17 could bring about positive results. This will incentivise our young people to stay in school and further their education so that they will have an opportunity to enter the knowledge-based economy. A further year spent in education, on a vocational course, on an apprenticeship or in a job with a certain amount of training will help ensure that young people who stay in school until they are 17 years of age will have better prospects and will be better prepared and equipped for their journey towards meaningful employment.

Earlier today we dealt with the Chid Care (Amendment) Bill 2015 and during the debate, the Minister, Deputy Reilly, said that children who sit the leaving certificate examination or go on to third level education have better employment opportunities and, generally, better prospects in life. However, there are children who drop out of education. These are the children we must protect and help. We must put in place programmes and supports that will entice them to remain in education. These young teenagers have no income as they cannot access social welfare benefits until they are 18 years of age. Some, of course, may be lucky enough to find employment but there are those who do not. Having nothing to do and all day to do it can lead to multiple problems for these children. Some may experience mental health issues, others may resort to petty crime and, often, more serious crime while others may delve in drugs or alcohol. I am not suggesting that all early school-leavers will end up going down this road but, unfortunately, many do. I hope that by ensuring they remain in formal education for as long as possible, they will see education as the best route out of poverty and the best way to enhance their prospects and to equip themselves with the skills needed for their future lives.

According to a McKinsey report, the primary reason young people are held back is because some of them lack the skills relevant to the workplace. There are school-leavers who are not academically inclined. Our concern over the years has been that young people who leave compulsory education will enter the labour market without adequate skills and basic qualifications. This problem needs to be tackled. We are now in an era where unskilled jobs are slowly ceasing to exist. Manual labour and manufacturing is on a decline. Based on a study from the expert group on future skills, there is an increasing growth in the demand for skilled labour. These skilled jobs that are reasonably well paid require a level of skill and education. The Department of Education and Skills Youthreach programme has so far been successful in leading early school-leavers aged 15 to 20 back into education. It is a fact that not all students are academically-minded. I know a young teenager who is not academically-minded but could cook for Ireland. I have been encouraging him to train as a chef. The Minister and I recently visited the Kerry College of Further Education in Tralee which runs a chef training course which is accessible to students outside of the CAO process. There is something out there for everyone. The provision of education and training in all areas is key to ensuring all people have access to education.

According to Dr. John Bamber, there is a need to recognise and value non-formal learning in a creative and innovative way, raising the visibility of skills acquired outside the formal system and fostering complementarity between non-formal and formal learning, while at the same time promoting equal opportunities. Youthreach provides young people with opportunities for basic education, personal development, vocational training and work experience in respect of which they acquire certification, following which they can then choose a career that best suits them. The programme, which operates full-time and throughout the year and has a continuous intake policy also gives the school-leaver the opportunity to participate in any leaving certificate applied course or to take up an apprenticeship. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Kerry Diocesan Youth Service which operates four Youthreach programmes, each of which caters for 25 students. It is doing fantastic work. During my engagement with those involved, I asked about the progression rate in respect of people who participate in its Youthreach programmes. The following are data in relation to only one of its programmes. One student progressed into PLC level 5, sports and recreation in Tralee; eight young people went on to do the leaving certificate applied; four moved into PLC courses in the Kerry College of Further Education; three moved into level 4 in Tralee community training centre; one became a new mother but rather than give up on her educational plan took up night classes with KETB in the area of beauty and will follow this up in 2016 with a full-time course; one gained employment and one had a baby and decided to stay at home parenting for the next year. One can see from this information just how valuable Youthreach programmes are. It is important they are supported in continuing their work. I understand Youthreach programmes and apprenticeship providers receive a small amount of funding. We must ensure that education-type training leads to employment. I welcome that under this Bill children of 16 and 17 years of age who take up an apprenticeship will be deemed to be furthering their education.

I thank the Labour Party Senators for introducing this Private Members' Bill. Fianna Fáil will be supporting its passage through the Houses but will be tabling amendments to it on Committee Stage. There is merit in this legislation in the context of the many issues currently affecting our young people. Countries across the developed world are increasing the age in respect of which children are legally obliged to remain in secondary education and for a number of reasons, some of which are pertinent in Ireland, including the high level of unemployment among young people. This is a difficulty being experienced by not only Ireland but across other countries in Europe, including Spain and other southern European countries. There are benefits to increasing the age limit in this regard from 16 years to 17 years, all of which have been well documented. Ensuring children remain in education for longer helps in tackling the issue of youth unemployment.

In 1972, the UK increased the age at which a student may leave secondary education to 16 years, at which time changes were also introduced here. The UK further increased the age in this regard to 18 years in an effort to tackle youth unemployment levels. According to reports youth unemployment among the under 25s in the UK is approximately 23%. I understand the percentage for Ireland in this regard is similar. In particular parts of Northern Ireland, youth employment is close to 50%. I recently read an article by Danny Blanchflower, a famous footballer, in which he said he expressed grave concern that the high level of youth unemployment in Northern Ireland could undo the good work of the peace process. The level of youth unemployment in some parts of Derry and Belfast is so high it is impacting negatively on communities. Any measure that supports young people must be welcomed.

However, retaining young people at second level does not necessarily translate into greater opportunities for them and issues have emerged and will emerge such as the quality of education provided. I have read that in Spain the age until which a student was legally obliged to stay in school was raised, but what happened was that students who did not wish to be there retaliated and this led to an increase in the level of teacher absenteeism. Consequently, there are issues in this regard that must be challenged. It should not be a one-size-fits-all approach because certain pupils may not be academically inclined and may be more suited to apprenticeship programmes and so on. I look with envy at the Germans because of the way in which they have manufactured their apprenticeship programme. I remember that, as late as 2010, the construction sector was on the floor but building courses were still being offered by FÁS in County Donegal to young apprenticeship students. The system was not fit for purpose. Therefore, the apprenticeship programme as a whole must be considered. Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice, in particular, has raised this issue in the other House and brought forward proposals in that regard. Those students, particularly male students, who may not be academically inclined must be provided with opportunities to excel in apprenticeship programmes. I note, for example, that Roy Keane, one of Ireland's most senior soccer internationals of all time and one of the best players in the world, came through a FÁS apprenticeship programme. There are sports apprenticeship programmes that could be made available. In this context, I note that the country has a massive obesity problem. The new SOLAS initiative is excellent, but it must make its apprenticeship programmes more attractive and fit for purpose. This challenge must be addressed in conjunction with this legislation.

Obviously, Ireland now operates in a global economy and the skill sets required are much greater than in the 1960s and 1970s when the age until which one stayed at school was much lower. This issue must be examined. The globalisation agenda and multinational corporations are driving the employment agenda worldwide, not just in Ireland, and Members must ensure graduates emerging from school or third level colleges are fit for purpose. As I mentioned, there are problems associated with raising the school leaving age, in that pupils who did not wish to stay in education might become disruptive. However, the recent ESRI report on school retention outlined that lack of access to high quality career guidance was detrimental to kids aged 16 and 17 years. The lack of such a service has been detrimental to many second level schools. While I am not being political on this issue, the move away from career guidance provision on an ex quota teacher basis was incorrect and has had a major impact. I recall that when I sat the leaving certificate examination at 17 years of age, I did not have a clue about what I wanted to do and had it not been for the career guidance advice available in the school, I could have ended up anywhere.

The career guidance offered at the time certainly did not include politics, but my point is the provision of career guidance must also be considered. If kids are to be kept in school for longer, they should be given the proper career guidance they require.

While there is much more I could say about this issue, this is a good Private Members' Bill that should see the light of day. All Members should have an opportunity to engage in the debate on Committee Stage when Fianna Fáil will table some constructive amendments. I hope this will happen before the general election that probably will be held in the not too far distant future.

I understand two Ministers intend to respond.

Yes, we wish to share time.

This is probably a first for the Seanad in that two Ministers have come to respond to a Private Members' Bill, on which I congratulate Senator Mary Moran. I am sharing time with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly. As Senator Mary Moran stated, while responsibility for setting the school leaving age comes within the policy remit of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, the proposals contained in the Bill have significant implications for the areas that come within my remit in the Department of Education and Skills. I wish to make it clear that the Government will support the passage of the Bill through Second Stage and it is welcome to hear that the Opposition is also supporting it. Any proposal that seeks to retain children in school is welcome and I acknowledge the initiative of Senator Mary Moran in preparing the draft legislation and bringing it before the House. My own objective for all children and young people is that they engage positively with education and complete their schooling, having achieved a qualification at upper second level. I am particularly conscious of the need to maintain supports for schools aimed at tackling educational disadvantage. As Members are aware, the Department is reviewing the delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, programme. The review which I announced earlier this year is under way and a particular priority of mine. Through it, I wish to ensure those children and young people most of risk of not progressing and reaching their potential in education are adequately supported.

I certainly welcome the Bill and the Government is supporting it, but there are a number of issues that should be considered, some of which I note were raised in the contributions of the three Senators who have spoken thus far. It is important to note that the provisions of the Education (Welfare) Act 2000 generally, including those relating to the minimum school leaving age and vocational training, were introduced following extensive consultation with all relevant education and other stakeholders. As engagement with the relevant partners is something that generally happens in the education sector, I suggest a similar engagement would be a good idea with regard to this legislation. A key stakeholder group on this occasion is, of course, that comprising the children and young people, and their parents, who will be immediately affected by the proposed changes.

Ireland has an early school leavers rate of 8.4%, which is below the European Union's Europe 2020 target of 10% and close to Ireland's own adopted target of 8% by 2020. In addition, as Senator Mary Moran mentioned, my Department's most recent school retention figures show the overall rate of pupils staying on to complete their leaving certificate examinations has increased to just over 90%. It also is known that the majority of students who drop-out at second level do so between the first and second years of senior cycle, usually at the age of 17 or 18 years. School retention data do not, of course, take account of participation in apprenticeship and out-of-school programmes and other training within the first year of leaving school. I will turn to these three sectors shortly as they were raised by the three Senators who have spoken. Raising the minimum age to 17 years may result, therefore, in students being required to remain in school for transition year or the first year of senior cycle before pursuing these options.

It would be helpful to consider why 16 year olds are leaving school early. It is possible, however, that a large number do not leave to take up employment or apprenticeships; rather, 16 year olds who leave school are likely to have experienced significant challenges in the school system, either in managing themselves or being managed, and evidence of this view is expressed in the Youthreach learner interviews during evaluations carried out by my Department's inspectorate. Again, Senators Mary Moran and Brian Ó Domhnaill referred to studies carried out of early school leaving. In circumstances such as these a key question would focus on a school's capacity to continue to manage a student who has particular problems in school, who may be unhappy in school or who may have repeated challenging behaviour. Thus, some schools, particularly DEIS schools where early school leaving is more prevalent, might require further supports to assist them in managing the retention of students to 17 years.

As Senators Mary Moran and Marie Moloney referred to Youthreach, Senator Mary Moran referred to Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, and SOLAS and all three Senators referred to apprenticeships, I wish to comment briefly on them. An increase in the school leaving age would also have an impact in centres other than schools such as Youthreach and community training programmes where the training allowance payable to 16 and 17-year olds is €40 per week. Senator Marie Moloney suggested that perhaps these participants might be counted as being in school. This may be a point at which Members must tease out the issue because I do not believe any of the Senators who spoke was suggesting they be considered early school leavers. Perhaps this is a point to which we might return after the debate. This level of payment, €40 per week, is not regarded as an incentive to attract young people away from school, but it provides some encouragement for those who have dropped out of school to attend an alternative provision. Youthreach is my Department's response to early school leaving and provides places for learners to continue their education when they have dropped out of mainstream school. However, it is important to state that while Youthreach is a second-chance programme, it fulfils the requirement of compulsory school attendance in certain limited circumstances where returning to mainstream school is not a possibility. Again, this point could be teased out. As a general principle Youthreach centres are not encouraged to accept anyone who is of compulsory schoolgoing age. An increase in the entry age to 17 years would have implications for the demand for places and the profile of allowances.

I do not think the intention is to in any way limit what Youthreach does.

The foregoing examples show that engagement with education and other professionals working in this area is essential to ensure any policy change will meet its objective and that it will not have unintended consequences for the target group or students generally.

The implications for SOLAS and employers of the inclusion of apprenticeships within the scope of educational welfare legislation also require careful consideration. The specific proposal to allow apprenticeships to be regarded as school attendance may be somewhat at odds with the fact that apprentices are employed directly by the enterprise sector. That issue would need to be teased out. We do not want apprenticeships to be seen as an opt-out from formal education; the nature of apprenticeships has changed in recent years and even many traditional apprenticeships have become more technology focused. A basic leaving certificate qualification is now regarded as desirable for entry into apprenticeship and almost 70% of entrants present qualifications at that level. It is important that key stakeholders such as employers are included in the consultation process on this provision. Senator Mary Moran referred to the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation as being the third Department involved in this proposal. The new apprenticeship system which I announced recently is an example of the approach needed for effective programme development and was based on widespread consultation and a collegiate approach to policy development. It includes chefs, as mentioned by Senator Marie Moloney. It also includes butchers, the drivers of articulated trucks and areas such as financial services. It is quite broad and 25 will come on stream this year.

The proposed change to the Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Act 1996 would represent a significant change in the law for employers and my colleague, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, has asked that there be consultation with his Department to allow full consideration of the proposed legislative changes.

I hope these comments have identified some of the key issues that need to be considered and further teased out during the passage of this legislation. I also hope they have been helpful as I have made them in an attempt to positively influence the proposal. I again thank Senator Mary Moran for her initiative in bringing forward this proposal and look forward to the comments of other speakers and engaging further on the Bill.

I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to address Seanad Éireann in response to the Education (Welfare) (Amendment) Bill 2015 put forward by Senator Mary Moran. Any proposal that seeks to raise the education and skill level of young people when they leave school and set out to make their way in the world must be welcome.

Government policy objectives are laid out in a national policy framework for children and young people, Better Outcomes, Brighter Future, which aims to support children and young people as they are today and who they can become in the future. Unsurprisingly, ensuring children and young people can achieve their full potential in learning and development is a key national outcome in the framework. This is a goal that is relevant at every stage of a child’s life, from the first months through to adulthood. The Bill addresses the latter part of that cycle, the minimum age at which a young person can leave the formal education system.

From my perspective as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, the most important aspect to consider in this regard is the level and nature of education and skills young people have the opportunity to acquire, rather than the young person’s age. Young people must have the education and skills they need to make a decent and independent life for themselves and, I hope, their families in the future. There are a range of measures in place to support children and young people’s participation in education. They include fostering an inclusive school environment, bringing a whole-school approach to health and well-being as the basis for effective learning and ensuring a commitment to equality is firmly embedded in school planning arrangements in order that children in all their diversity have the opportunity to flourish.

It is important to recognise that one path does not suit all children, provision should promote different learning styles and recognise the acquisition of different skills and competencies. During consultations on the recently published national youth strategy, young people ranked learning and development as one of their top three priorities. They stressed the need for an adaptable education system which supported all young people, including those less academically oriented, by providing alternative opportunities, practical skills and vocational education. In that context, I welcome section 3 of the Bill which proposes that participation in vocational apprenticeships should satisfy the school attendance requirement, while noting the comments of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, and recognising that this proposal requires further consideration. I also acknowledge the role of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs in this regard, in supporting non-formal learning, both in and out of school settings. This year some €50 million in funding will support the voluntary youth services providing these opportunities for almost 380,000 young people.

The Department of Children and Youth Affairs works closely with the Department of Education and Skills to secure the best outcomes for all children and young people, but the children at risk of early school leaving and educational disadvantage must be of particular concern to us all. Some 8.4% of children leave school early. That figure does not take account of those who go on to apprenticeships or other out-of-school training programmes within the first year of leaving school; it is lower than the EU 2020 target of 10% and there have been improvements in retention rates among children in disadvantaged areas in recent years, but the figure is still far too high. Where young people leave school without the education and skills they need to allow them to create a decent and independent life for themselves and their families, we have failed. While that failure impacts most severely on the young people concerned, we all suffer the lost potential of each of the children who leaves school early.

As part of the Government’s fundamental reform of provision for children and families, responsibility for educational welfare has been brought within the remit of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. The Education (Welfare) Act 2000 requires that every child receive a minimum standard of education and Tusla’s educational welfare service includes several key supports for educationally disadvantaged children, including educational welfare officers, the school completion programme and the home-school community liaison programme. Effective responses to these issues must be outcome-focused and determined in collaboration with children and young people, their families and schools, as well as other agencies, where relevant. It may sound obvious, but it is easily forgotten that if we want to achieve better outcomes for children and young people, we must listen to them and work to support their parents and families. Parents are the primary educators of their children and the evidence tells us that family involvement is one of the key determinants of educational outcomes.

We must take account of the evidence about what works best for children and families when it comes to good educational outcomes. The recent Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, review of the school completion programme highlighted the need for improvements in governance and management, which are being implemented by Tusla, but was generally positive about the impact of the programme. Supporting children at critical transition points from preschool to primary and from primary to secondary school is also important to successful outcomes. Fundamentally, prevention and early intervention are much more effective than "cure". Appropriate early intervention, allied with high quality early years services, is the best way to ensure every child has a real and meaningful opportunity to realise his or her full potential, something that we all want for our children.

The fundamental reform of child and family services that the Government is implementing provides a real opportunity to change the way we interact with children and families to combat educational disadvantage. We need to leverage all of our investments in children and families to get the best results. I recently announced a major expansion of free preschool education and believe this investment, together with the ESRI review of the school completion programme, provides a real opportunity to embed the learning about early intervention and working with children and families to develop more effective responses to the issue of educational disadvantage. The first step in developing that more effective response must be listening to children and families. I am deeply committed to including children and young people in decisions that affect their Iives, not only because it is the right thing to do but also because it helps us to develop better policy. Nobody knows better than the children who have been through the system what needs to change. Last June I launched Ireland’s first national strategy for children and young people's participation in decision-making, 2015 to 2020. In that context, Senators may be interested to know that the topic selected by young people for the next Dáil na nÓg, which takes place on 27 November in Croke Park, is "The need for young people to have a stronger voice in their education and schools". l am very pleased, therefore, that the Minister for Education and Skills has agreed to join me at the event and address the young people attending and participate in the question and answer session.

The question of school leaving age is certainly one that should be discussed with children and parents, but the members of Dáil na nÓg will vote at the November session on the priority aspect of the education system they want to change. The 31 young people from the Comhairle na nÓg national executive will follow up on that objective in the following two years, supported by officials in the Departments of Children and Youth Affairs and Education and Skills.

I commend the Senator's initiative in bringing forward the Bill which has the potential to strengthen the legislative framework within which Tusla undertakes its work.

Educational welfare service can involve an early intervention which may be relatively brief in nature or, where the problem is more complex, educational welfare officers can provide a more intensive and ongoing support for the child and family. Last year there were more than 17,000 early interventions with more intensive support being provided to over 2,400 children.

Under the school completion programme, Tusla provides a range of targeted supports, which can include homework clubs, breakfast clubs, mentoring, learning support, social and personal development as well as a range of out-of-school supports to approximately 37,000 children to enhance their participation in and engagement with education and school life. The home-school liaison aims to build on those important links between families, schools and local communities to support children's learning.

I know Senators will appreciate the need for consultation with a wide range of stakeholders to fully consider all the impacts of such a change. We have the policies and structures in place to ensure children and young people can have their say in the policies that most impact on their lives. Their perspectives are important and their input can enrich the discussions about this important measure.

I can only give the Minister a C1, as he went slightly over his time.

I welcome the Minister. The Bill is interesting and I compliment Senator Moran - in fact I should have introduced such a Bill myself. It is interesting to have both Ministers responding and we should have more of this because both of them have responsibility for that age group. The reason I say I should have introduced such a Bill is that in 2010, the Oireachtas committee did an early school-leaving study and I was the rapporteur at the time. I worked with the Educational Research Centre as the expert group. We just stopped short of recommending moving the age to 17. So this is timely.

In 2010 early school leaving rates were at 16% and the Minister is now saying it is 8.1% or 8.4%. I might query his figures because I recently heard it was at 11%, but we will not fight over it. That is a national figure. Obviously in middle-class well-to-do areas there is no early school leaving at all; they are all doing their leaving certificate examinations and going on to college. However, in some disadvantaged areas that figure is 20% to 25%. Early school leaving is an issue and it is a benchmark for inequity and poor life chances. As other Senators rightly mentioned, we need many pathways to futures. The Minister has said he wants better outcomes for brighter futures, which is the key.

When we interviewed the children who were leaving school early we found six at-risk groups. One was children with learning difficulties and special educational needs. Another was LGBT children because they found it difficult to deal with their sexuality while at school. ADHD children was a very big group and many of them ended up in prison because children with an attention deficit disorder act without thinking and create many behavioural challenges, not just in the classroom, but in society. Children with family, home and intergenerational issues formed another group. The one group that was a big surprise comprised children with ill health. The Minister might say that is no surprise, but a factor that emerged was that girls who were raped at second level school also left school early because they were not believed by the school system. The final group at risk were Travellers, which again was no surprise.

While I am discussing the issue of ill health, the Minister will be familiar with the concerns about the HPV vaccine, Gardasil. At the moment 106 girls have documented their experiences of ill health since receiving the Gardasil vaccine. Their levels of absenteeism are very high. One parent recently brought me a certificate showing that her child had 50 absent days owing to feeling debilitated and not being able to get out of bed. Some of these children are spending 18 to 20 hours in bed. One mother told me that her daughter was vomiting up to 11 times in an hour between dizziness and fainting, etc.

I had tabled a motion on this issue this week but it was ruled out of order by the Cathaoirleach. I am glad the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is hearing about this now from me. We need a dedicated multidisciplinary team appointed to the assessment and treatment of those girls because they are sick children. They are all within the remit of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs because they are under 18. It is affecting their life chances and their outcomes, which is also within his brief. That is an aside and I am deliberately using this motion to highlight the issue because ill health came up as a reason for children leaving school early. I am not saying the vaccine is a direct cause but an outcome of it is that children have been getting sick. There seems to be a pattern of sporty and athletic children who are getting quite sick. It is very worrying and we need to look at it.

I return to the recommendations of our study. The Minister will not be surprised that to achieve better outcomes the foundation is investing in family and education. The recommendation was to invest early. Obviously, the Government is putting resources into that with the funding of the second preschool year. I acknowledge that and I am delighted with it because it was one of the key recommendations of our study. However, there are other issues around that.

The other requirement is to track at-risk children. Senator Jim D'Arcy will be very familiar with much of this because in the educational system we know that certain children are at risk and the teachers can identify those children very early.

As the Minister said, in education one size does not fit all. We need to be very aware of children's learning styles and to teach using creative approaches. Another recommendation from our study was the need to teach children how to learn and how to study. Not every child knows how to learn. Having many pathways is vital, as is good career guidance, as Senator Ó Domhnaill mentioned. Career guidance in this country has been very poor. I believe we have 499 children per guidance counsellor, which makes things impossible. They are not just giving career guidance but are also providing counselling. With more children having mental health issues, personal issues or interpersonal issues, which are very common with children going through puberty, we need more career guidance teachers in the system.

It is good to see a focus on apprenticeships and I know the Minister for Education and Skills has a clear commitment to this area. Apprenticeships are vital because children learn differently and learning in the workplace is a style that will suit many.

There is a lot to say about what provides a good quality of education for the child. There is a lot to say about the importance of investing in the family because those with a good family and a good education are well on their way. I thank the Minister for listening and I thank Senator Moran and her colleagues for introducing the Bill.

I commend Senators Moran and Maloney, and the other Labour Senators, on introducing this Private Members' Bill, the purpose of which is to increase the school-leaving age to 17. Many children for one reason or another do not thrive in the normal school setting and either drop out early or do not succeed in having a successful outcome to their secondary education.

For many years now the Irish education system was a pyramid with academic achievement at the top of that pyramid. Academic achievement is very commendable and for those with university degrees the outlook is usually good.

The reality is that there are different paths to success and fulfilment, a point which the Government recognises. As a member of the Council of Europe’s Committee on Culture, Science, Education and Media, I was involved in the report by Mr. Piotr Wach of Poland, Raising the Status of Vocational Education and Training. In it he stated, "It is time for a strategic vision to restore vocational training to its rightful place, including urgent measures to improve its quality, increase its attractiveness and bring it into line with employers’ needs".

The Government has done great work in raising the status of vocational education and training, not least through the Education and Training Boards Act 2013 and the Further Education and Training Act 2013. I am pleased the Bill makes specific provision for the continuing education and training of young persons aged 16 and 17 years who have left school early to take up employment. It provides for the registration of early school leavers with Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, and for the agency to assist them in availing of appropriate educational and training opportunities.

There are different paths to success and fulfilment which have, historically, been underexplored in this country. It has been said we should aim for a third-level entry rate of 70% of secondary school leavers. In Germany, the largest and most successful economy in Europe, the figure is 50% with a corresponding higher rate of entry into the vocational, skills and apprenticeship sector. In Ireland, everyone aspires to third level as the summit of educational achievement. We need a change of attitude which values all forms of education equally, a point on which the Government has proactively pursued. In this respect, it is worth noting the skills and training sector has traditionally provided the entrepreneurs and wealth creators that our country so badly needs. In Finland, a country often lauded as the exemplar for good educational practice, about 50% of children move into the further education sector upon leaving secondary school as their first choice.

The raising of the school age to 17 will not work completely for positive outcomes for individual children unless the further education and training sector is expanded, with the consequent need for more resources. For several years, due to the significant economic downturn, we have been working within the limits and tolerances of the medium in the provision of resources. For example, there is still a cap on post-leaving certificate places, which should be removed shortly. We need to upgrade the status of vocational education and training to the level of esteem in which third level is held. We must increase the number of apprenticeships. Currently, we have 27 with a further 25 planned, while in Germany there are over 300 apprenticeships.

Another way to promote retention at school longer is through the provision of traineeships. Cavan and Monaghan Education and Training Board has a traineeship in engineering, developed and running in conjunction with Combilift, for an original equipment manufacturer technician. At the end of the course, the student can go into the workforce as a semi-skilled engineering operative or move on to an apprenticeship. Combilift awards a student bursary of €5,000 per year to successful applicants, paid weekly at €100, to each successful student. This is one way to encourage young people to stay in the system.

When the school leaving age is raised to 17, the challenge is to educate and train for the labour market, not because of the market. In that sense, course provision must be further expanded and resourced to ensure students stay at school because we have provided them with the opportunity to make suitable choices that lead to career progression opportunities, not because they are forced to stay. We want them to stay as it will offer them a bright future and contribute to Ireland’s future growth and development in a holistic way. We must ensure they want to stay because they will get access to the courses they want and need, and which will offer them the opportunity to transfer learning and skills. More importantly, these courses must offer them upward progression through the national framework of qualifications and career development. It should be about the provision of courses that people will want to do to ensure progression with proper supports to success in a choice-based system that leads to personal fulfilment and success.

I thank both the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly, for contributing to this debate. When a cross-departmental issue is debated, it is good there is more than one Minister in the House and that the different Departments take an interest in it. I thank all my colleagues who voiced their support for the Bill. I am delighted this will not go to a vote or that there are any major objections to it.

Both Ministers raised some issues, of which I was aware, about how the Bill is currently drafted. However, we all agree the basis for the Bill is there. I look forward to moving this on to Committee Stage. I agree that before that, consultation is necessary between all stakeholders, namely the schools, employers and young people. I am delighted the next Dáil na nÓg will be debating this issue and look forward to its recommendations on it.

The Minister for Education and Skills raised a valid point about the issue of making supports available for those students with challenging behaviour to ensure they will remain in school. There is also the point about the onus being on schools to maintain those students. It is important we ensure all the supports necessary are on hand and available for them. I know from speaking to people involved in the school completion programme how important it is to ensure the resources and funding are in place. Last weekend, I was speaking to people about the cuts which have been made in the programme. It is vital these students are supported and the funding remains available for them.

I commend the Bill to the House and look forward to taking Committee Stage in the near future.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 17 November 2015.
The Seanad adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12 November 2015.
Top
Share