Legal Services Regulation Bill 2011: Report Stage (Resumed)

Government amendment No. 184:
In page 74, line 8, to delete "barrister" and substitute "practising barrister".
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 185 not moved.
Government amendment No. 186:
In page 74, line 20, to delete "providing legal services" and substitute "providing legal services as a practising barrister".
Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 187:

In page 74, line 21, to delete ", other than a contentious matter,".

I think-----

The amendment has already been discussed.

-----confining discussions with a barrister to matters which are not contentious seems to be retaining the ban on speaking to barristers without solicitors present.

I second the amendment. As I said this morning on the Order of Business, it is a complete and utter nonsense. If one is involved in a contentious matter with a barrister, of course one needs to discuss it. It is like saying someone can come to Seanad Éireann and not speak about anything of a political nature. It is absolutely absurd unless there is an obscure reason which the Minister will now reveal to us.

Is the Minister going to say something to explain this?

The amendment was discussed with amendment No. 2.

Therefore, there is not a proper-----

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 24.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Power, Averil.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Cahill, Máiría.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Sean D. Barrett and David Norris; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 188:

In page 74, to delete lines 26 to 35, and in page 75, to delete line 1.

I second the amendment.

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 15; Níl, 25.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Cahill, Máiría.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators David Cullinane and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 189:

In page 75, to delete lines 29 to 37, to delete page 76, and in page 77, to delete lines 1 to 22.

I second the amendment.

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 27.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Cahill, Máiría.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • Norris, David.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators David Cullinane and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Government amendment No. 190:
In page 76, lines 6 and 7, to delete “section 74(3)(b)(iii)” and substitute “section 75(7)(c)”.

The next four amendments are simply technical references to new sections arising from the changes made to the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 191:
In page 76, line 10, to delete “section 74(3)(b)(iv)” and substitute “section 75(7)(d)”.

This is simply to make a substitution.

Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 192:
In page 76, line 15, to delete “subparagraph (v) or (vi) of section 74(3)(b)” and substitute “paragraph (e) or (f) of section 75(7)”.
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 193:
In page 76, to delete lines 27 to 29 and substitute the following:
“(h) a person who—
(i) has a declaration under section 819 of the Companies Act 2014 made against him or her or is deemed to be subject to such a declaration by virtue of Chapter 5 of Part 14 of that Act, or
(ii) is subject or is deemed to be subject to a disqualification order, within the meaning of Chapter 4 of Part 14 of the Companies Act 2014, whether by virtue of that Chapter or any other provisions of that Act;”.
Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 194:

In page 77, line 13, to delete “unqualified person” and substitute “disqualified person”.

I second the amendment.

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 15; Níl, 25.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Cahill, Máiría.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Power, Averil.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Sean D. Barrett and David Norris; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Government amendment No. 195:
In page 77, line 14, to delete “Solicitor’s Act 1954” and substitute “Act of 1954”.
Amendment put and declared carried.
Government amendment No. 196:
In page 77, line 20, to delete “Solicitors (Amendment) Act 1994” and substitute “Act of 1994”.
Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 197:

In page 77, to delete lines 23 to 39, and in page 78, to delete lines 1 to 5.

I second the amendment.

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 25.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Cahill, Máiría.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Trevor Ó Clochartaigh and Kathryn Reilly; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 198:

In page 78, to delete lines 6 to 13.

I second the amendment.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 199:

In page 78, to delete lines 14 to 37, and in page 79, to delete lines 1 to 22.

I second the amendment.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 200:

In page 79, to delete lines 23 to 35.

I second the amendment.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 201:

In page 79, between lines 35 and 36, to insert the following:

"(f) specify the cost to the client of the services specified in paragraphs (a) to (e) inclusive".

It is vital that legal practitioners state the cost of their services. We discussed this issue on the previous occasion. I wish the point to be considered most seriously, that complaints about legal costs and unexpected increases in costs are just as important as any of the other items, from paragraphs (a) to (d). I am pressing the amendment most strongly.

I second the amendment.

Amendment put:
The Seanad divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 23.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Cahill, Máiría.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D'Arcy, Jim.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Naughton, Hildegarde.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O'Brien, Mary Ann.
  • O'Neill, Pat.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Sean D. Barrett and David Norris; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.
Amendment declared lost.
Debate adjourned.