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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Jul 2016

Vol. 246 No. 13

Public Procurement: Statements

This is my first time to appear in the Seanad and it is a privilege to be here. I look forward to the debate.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to address the Seanad as public procurement is a key part of my portfolio and an integral part of the Government’s overall reform agenda. The main focus of this reform has been to deliver better value for the taxpayer by harnessing the State’s buying power for commonly used goods and services and to enable greater consistency and standardisation of approach in order to facilitate small and medium-sized enterprise, SME, participation and the driving of wider social policy objectives. This approach is designed to enable the provision of much-need public services within tighter budgets. Although it is true to say these reforms have been driven by the need to secure value for money, they have been carried out in a manner that fully recognises the important role SMEs play in the economy and that public procurement represents significant business opportunities. The remit of the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, is, therefore, to deliver sustainable savings for the taxpayer through centralising procurement across the public service and encouraging SMEs to fully engage in public procurement. This is relatively new and we are always in learning mode. It is important when reforming processes that we continue to study changes and further adapt, as necessary. I have already held meetings with a number of people involved in SMEs on general procurement practices and thank some of the Senators for organising some of these meetings.

Prior to the Government’s establishment of the Office of Government Procurement, the State lacked a consistent central mechanism for collecting, analysing and reporting categorised procurement data across the thousands of State-funded bodies in the public service. The Office of Government Procurement has embarked on improving data collection. One of the benefits of this exercise has been to get better data to assess the impact of procurement on SMEs. The Public Service Spend and Tendering Analysis 2013 report published last year was an important first step in improving accurate analysis of and transparency in public procurement expenditure. The data indicate that 93% of the State’s expenditure is with firms within the State and that the majority of the State’s expenditure is with SMEs. This can be contrasted with the United Kingdom, where recently produced statistics indicate that just over 10% of central government spending is directly with SMEs.

The OGP data indicate that in the majority of expenditure areas the typical tender value is less than €100,000, which provides a significant opportunity for SMEs. The Office of Government Procurement will be producing this analysis annually and data volumes, data quality and depth of analysis will I hope improve each time. Such reports will inform future procurement strategy and increase openness and transparency on public expenditure.

I heard at first hand yesterday about some of the challenging issues facing the SME sector when I chaired my first meeting of the SME working advisory group, which consists of representatives of the SME sector, including the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association and the Small Firms Association, with relevant State bodies such as the Office of Government Procurement and the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Enterprise Ireland and InterTradeIreland.

Public sector procurement can be appear to be complex. Therefore, improving public procurement practices by removing obstacles and encouraging the involvement of SMEs is a key priority of the Government. One of the key pillars of OGP support for SMEs is proactive engagement and education. In that context, the Office of Government Procurement supports the work of Enterprise Ireland and InterTradeIreland in building awareness of public procurement and delivering training for small suppliers in bidding for public contracts. In particular, the Office of Government Procurement supports events such as Meet the Buyer, one of which was held in Belfast last month and there is another planned for October in Dublin, which help suppliers to meet public sector buyers to better understand how public procurement works and the relevance of their goods or services. Hundreds of businesses attend these events. Representatives of the Office of Government Procurement have also attended a number of business events such as Taking Care of Business, run by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, and the Public Procurement for SMEs events run by the local enterprise offices at a local level. In addition, the Office of Government Procurement launched a campaign to get more businesses to register with eTenders, the national tendering portal, which to date has resulted in 12,300 new supplier registrations. Yesterday, I heard further suggestions about how to improve communications and outreach to SMEs.

At EU level there is also a growing recognition of the need to promote and facilitate SME participation in public procurement. The new EU directives on procurement have recently been transposed by the Office of Government Procurement. They are intended to make it easier for businesses and SMEs to tender for public sector procurement contracts. The directives contain provisions specifically designed to improve access for SMEs and start-up businesses. In April 2014 the Office of Government Procurement accelerated the implementation of some of the key measures by issuing guidance to public sector bodies. The key provisions of this guidance are in Circular 10/14. They indicate that buyers are advised to undertake market analysis prior to tendering in order to better understand the range of goods and services on offer, the competitive landscape, including the specific capabilities of SMEs etc.; transparency is promoted in procurement by requiring supplies and general services contracts with an estimated value of €25,000 to be advertised on the Government's electronic tendering portal, eTenders; and suppliers, including SMEs, should be encouraged to fully use eTenders and avail of its facilities for registration, e-tendering and automatic alerts for future tendering opportunities. The provisions also indicate that buyers are encouraged not to set turnover thresholds at more than twice the estimated contract value and put limits on insurance levels for suppliers, where possible; that there should be greater use of open tendering and less use of restrictive tendering; and that SMEs should consider using consortia where they are not of sufficient scale to tender in their own right or where they may lack certain capabilities necessary to provide a compelling proposition. The circular also encourages contracting authorities to break large contracts down into lots where reasonable to do so and where it does not expose the State to undue risk or significant management overheads.

In addition to achieving value for money in what the State procures and encouraging SME access to procurement opportunities, the Government is keen to explore the scope for maximising wider policy objectives, including social clauses in public contracts where they are suited to the objective of the contract and, therefore, would have the greatest impact. In this context, the Office of Government Procurement is examining social clauses with a view to assessing where they can be deployed to contribute to employment or training opportunities for the long-term unemployed. The purpose of this work includes the provision of general guidance and the identification of suitable contract clauses to be developed in conjunction with the Office of the Chief State Solicitor.

It is important to adopt a targeted approach to the use of social clauses in contracts where employers are likely to be hiring additional workers to deliver the contract. This is likely to mitigate the risk of displacing workers already in employment, while offering the opportunity of assisting with labour activation measures for the long-term unemployed.

Two examples of this approach which are in progress are the Grangegorman development and the devolved schools building programme. With regard to the latter, a clause has been included in the public works contract which requires 10% of the aggregate time worked on site to have been undertaken by individuals who have been registered on a national unemployment register within the European Union for a continuous period of at least 12 months immediately prior to their employment on the project. The clause also requires 2.5% of the aggregate time worked on site to have been undertaken by individuals who are employed under a registered scheme of apprenticeship or other similar national accredited training or educational work placement arrangement.

Experience of the pilot scheme has been positive. It is important to learn from such practical experiences where community benefit clauses are utilised. However, this is a complex area and we must also ensure value for money is not adversely affected, additional costs are not placed on domestic suppliers relative to other potential suppliers, contracts are of a minimum scale to absorb the increased administrative requirements and the targeted benefit is capable of being measured and monitored during the execution of the contract. In this context, also, care must be taken not to disproportionately affect SMEs bidding for public contracts. It is important to develop a robust structure that will assist the contracting authority in developing the correct clause and to provide support from the appropriate agency to aid the company in implementing the clause. I have instructed the Office of Government Procurement to issue practical guidance designed to assist contracting authorities in carrying out this important role in a consistent manner. I understand the Office of Government Procurement will be issuing this guidance to public bodies in the coming months.

The benefits of procurement reform include enabling cost reductions, a consistent approach to enable SME access and the capacity to use public procurement in certain circumstances as a driver of wider social considerations. With regard to savings, in the three years to the end of 2015 the Office of Government Procurement and its partner sectoral sourcing organisations in health, education, local government and defence had achieved procurement savings of an estimated €165 million. The Office of Government Procurement will continue to proactively work with stakeholders in identifying issues of concern for SMEs and social stakeholders and effectively dealing with those issues to the betterment of the procurement landscape in Ireland. However, nothing is set in stone. I look forward to hearing new ideas and constructive contributions from Members. Our work is not finished in improving our procurement practices, not just in saving money for the State but to get value for it. Where we can, we must recognise that value comes with things such as local knowledge, familiar service or the type of dynamic offering that sometimes only SMEs can give. I look forward to further engagement with Members on this important matter, as I wish, in line with the programme for Government, to refine the new procurement structures in place and make appropriate adjustments according to best international practice and in conjunction with Irish businesses.

I welcome the Minister of State to the Chamber and thank him for his contribution. I also congratulate him on his appointment as Minister of State with responsibility for financial services and e-government. I have no doubt that he will be an excellent Minister of State in that remit.

Ireland's public procurement market which is worth an estimated €8.5 billion per annum represents an enormous market opportunity for Irish SMEs. However, in many cases SMEs are at a serious disadvantage in competing for contracts because the criteria include minimum turnover levels far in excess of what many Irish companies can achieve. SMEs are the backbone of the economy. They make up over 99% of businesses in the enterprise economy in Ireland and account for almost 70% of people employed. They must be allowed to compete for a greater share of public service contracts. It is quite right that everything be done to facilitate multinationals in coming into the State, but SMEs and indigenous industries are not necessarily given the same momentum. In the long term, the competitiveness of the procurement process is damaged by the narrow range of businesses eligible to compete. Facilitating greater access to such public contracts will support the growth of small indigenous suppliers, while promoting entrepreneurship and business risk-taking across society.

Fianna Fáil supports opening up the procurement process to ensure all businesses can benefit. We support working within EU rules to ensure Irish SMEs are not disadvantaged in tendering for public service contracts. In our recent manifesto we put forward the innovative policy suggestion of creating a procurement ombudsman to ensure SMEs are facilitated in competing for contracts. This would eliminate discriminatory requirements which effectively exclude fair competition in many cases. Fianna Fáil proposes the following measures: key performance indicators for SME uptake should be fixed for all public procurers; procurers should be obliged to set targets in relation to their collaborative efforts as the first step in each procurement; specific training must be provided to public procurers in order to boost the skills needed in procuring; procurement should be facilitated on a regional basis; and contracting authorities must add provisions in public contracts in order that payments are made rapidly to suppliers, ensuring small businesses are paid more quickly for work that has been satisfactorily performed.

We need to build an SME objective into procurement procedures. Any Government contract given to large suppliers should be conditioned by the requirement to deliver contracts, where possible, with a substantial SME component. Government monitoring would ensure these obligations were being met. Building an SME objective into these Government contracts would be beneficial in connecting the procurement and contract management skills of these big businesses, thereby benefiting the public sector. While this could result in higher prices than could be attained via offshore outsourcing, it guarantees that Government money is being directed into the heart of the domestic economy and the SME sector.

The Government is by far Ireland's largest consumer, yet too often this consumer power is not put to strategic use. This is in stark contrast to other governments such as those of the United States, Germany and France which use procurement more strategically to support SMEs and industry and increase innovation and growth. The Government is not taking advantage of provisions under existing EU procurement law.

In 2015 Fianna Fáil prioritised incorporating social elements in procurement processes by introducing the Public Services and Procurement (Social Value) Bill 2015 which required that public bodies observe the economic, social and environmental well-being associated with the tendering of public service contracts. Greater consideration should be given to incorporating social elements in procurement processes. For example, a community benefit clause could be considered in the development of guidance for contracting public authorities across the State. This is a standard feature in many other countries, and EU procurement law makes provision for public authorities to introduce social or community clauses in their procurement procedures.

A social clause requiring compliance with all aspects of employment law has been incorporated into the suite of Irish public works contracts since their introduction in 2007. The clause permits deductions from the interim payments scheduled under the contract for non-compliance and places a considerable burden on both the contracting authority and contractor in demonstrating and verifying compliance. The social clause provisions most commonly adopted by countries include reservations for social enterprises and SMEs, with social inclusion and equal opportunity clauses. In essence, these require that contracting authorities ensure environmental, social and labour law obligations are complied with in public contracts.

A Programme for a Partnership Government must commit to facilitating quarterly meetings of the SME advisory group, chaired by a Minister of State at the Department of Finance or the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in order that the voice of Irish SMEs can be heard by the Government and the Office of Government Procurement. It must also continue to develop measures to support SMEs in accessing the public procurement market and refine the new procurement structures such as the Office of Government Procurement as they bed down and make adjustments according to best international practice and in conjunction with Irish businesses. We need to ensure the Oireachtas takes concrete action on the issue of procurement in order that we do not put ourselves at a competitive and social disadvantage.

I again thank the Minister of State for his contribution. It would be helpful if Members could receive copies of Ministers' speeches a little earlier. We might then be able to incorporate the contents a little into our own thoughts. If that were possible, it might be helpful in the future, but I am certainly not holding it against the Minister of State. However, it would be helpful for Senators to know what Ministers are going to cover in order that we would have time to reflect. My party and I look forward to working with the Government in ensuring, where possible, public procurement delivers value for the State and businesses within it.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy. I congratulate him on this, his first occasion to address Seanad Éireann, and his elevation to the position of Minister of State. I wish him well in his portfolio. I have no doubt at all that he will do a wonderful job in the ministry.

The Government identified procurement as key in its public service reform programme which it launched in 2013. The Office of Government Procurement, the central body responsible for public procurement across all sectors, was given the task of achieving savings of some €500 million over a three-year period. The office has rationalised the previous structures and framework procurement model and replaced it with a model consisting of common policies, procedures and systems. This is to be welcomed by everybody. As outlined by the previous speaker, €8.5 billion is the total spend in procurement, equating to an average of approximately €23 million per day, a huge amount of money. There have been inefficiencies and wastage for years in the area of procurement. It is a massive industry that includes every Department, every local authority, school, prison, the Defence Forces and so on. Procurement is a big issue.

It was a great idea to set up the Office of Government Procurement which not only allows all State bodies and agencies to make savings, it also enables all small and medium enterprises to go online and see opportunities to tender for business. We know that there are problems with the tendering process, but the Office of Government Procurement is to be welcomed.

Irish Water, a State body established as a national water utility, has made significant savings since it was established and will make further savings in the years ahead. It has made significant savings not only on capital works but also in the treatment of water and effluent. The taxpayer is benefiting from these savings on the part of Irish Water. Previously, each local authority had to negotiate a price for water and effluent treatment. To be fair to Irish Water, it has done a marvellous job in making the process efficient. That is in the interests of the taxpayer. I have no doubt that further efficiencies will be introduced by Irish Water.

Mr. Paul Quinn, chief procurement officer of the Office of Government Procurement, said the reforms would help to streamline public procurement processes and embed more simplified and flexible rules for the conduct of public procurement. He also said public procurement must continue to be used as an instrument to drive better value for money outcomes for the taxpayer from the significant annual spend on goods and supply of services and works. This must be welcomed by the public in general.

I also welcome the Minister of State's comments to the effect that a light touch regime is provided for and that this covers mainly social, health and educational services for contracts above €750,000. The rules and procedures are intended to maximise flexibility in the conduct of procurement in these areas. While adhering to the key procurement principles of transparency and equality of treatment, this flexibility is to be welcomed. The worst thing is to be too rigid. When one can make savings while adhering to the principles of transparency, quality and equality and yet be flexible, this is to be warmly welcomed.

There are areas where procurement policy can go overboard. I would hate small companies not to be in a position to tender because of the minimum turnover set in respect of being eligible to tender for contracts. That is a pity. There are some great small companies in the SME sector and they should be allowed to tender if they can compete.

We are overburdened by regulation. I suppose one can see that the British people have fallen out with the European Union because of over-regulation. I was informed by a small contractor who wished to supply a local authority with vans that the tender document ran to 70 pages. It is a major job to complete a tender document of that length, but the larger contractor has economies of scale and staff who are continually working on contracts and tender processes for various local authorities or Government agencies. It is ridiculous that a smaller contractor who is tendering for a particular contract - perhaps for the supply of spades, shovels or a van, for example - must complete a 70-page tender document every time he submits a quote for a low-price contract. The tendering process can be very cumbersome and time consuming for the contractor. I request that the Minister of State consider this aspect of procurement.

In respect of vans, trucks and other vehicles, the Road Safety Authority can go a little overboard. I know of a case where the driver of a van must start up the vehicle, turn on all the indicators and lights and then walk around and check they are working. He must comply with this condition of the contract every day. That is ridiculous, particularly as there are lights on the dashboards of most vehicles to alert drivers as to whether bulbs, etc., are not working. The driver to whom I refer is obliged to spend 20 to 30 minutes each day walking around his van which is operating under tender on behalf of the local authority in order to check if the wipers and lights are working. All such vehicles must be tested on an annual basis and in many cases there are internal lights to indicate if something is not working properly. Under the contract which applies in this instance, the driver must conduct a visual inspection and then fill in the log book.

I reiterate that the tendering process can be inefficient and cumbersome for the SME sector. I welcome the Minister of State's statement, but we should try to find a way to help smaller enterprises compete.

I welcome the Minister of State. The focus of Sinn Féin with regard to public procurement can be summarised under two broad headings: increasing opportunities for SMEs; and, most importantly, supporting sustainable secure employment.

Chambers Ireland has described a continued sense of frustration among those in the SME community that issues such as the Government's limited focus on the lowest tender price above wider social and economic benefits continue to be raised and continue to be ignored. Since highlighting the need to open up procurement to SMEs and micro-businesses in the policy paper, Putting SMEs First, there has been some movement on the part of the Government to acknowledge the problems facing small businesses. We welcome this.

Since the establishment of the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, in July 2013, changes to the public procurement system have taken place. Some of the Office of Government Procurement's work has been positive. Procurement has been professionalised and is becoming more streamlined. For the first time, real data on public procurement are available and the Office of Government Procurement has committed to producing an annual report of analysed expenditure and tendering activity. However, problems remain. The Government's policy of prioritising the cheapest price over and above the wider economic and social value of contracts is damaging the economy and denying small companies of much needed business opportunities. Equally worrying are the ongoing changes to local authority procurement, which have centralised procurement contracts worth millions of euro. The latter has the potential to deprive local economies of long-established income.

The Public Service Spend and Tendering Analysis for 2013, compiled by the Office of Government Procurement, found that 66% of public service expenditure was with SMEs. I think the Minister quoted the higher figures for the more recent data. It is important to note the Office of Government Procurement uses the traditional definition of SMEs, namely, enterprises with fewer than 250 employees. In truth, we know the composition of SMEs in Ireland is very different. This is further complicated by the fact that there is no differentiation between homegrown small businesses and Irish subsidiaries of large multinational corporations. The Small Firms Association, SFA, has correctly described Ireland as a nation of small businesses, with 97% of the 200,000 businesses with 50 employees or fewer and 84% with fewer than ten employees. Until the OGP data collation accurately categorises micro, small and medium enterprises, the policy solutions put in place will continue to be deficient and the analysis of them unreliable.

I will run through our key recommendations. Our first is that InterTradeIreland and the Office of Government Procurement develop a Meet the Supplier event programme in consultation with the SFA, ISME and micro-business representatives.

This should be rolled out for all public servants engaged in all levels of awarding public procurement contracts. The Office of Government Procurement should put in place robust predatory pricing safeguards at the mini competition stage of the tendering process, following consultation with micro and small business representatives. The Office of Government Procurement should clearly define micro, small and medium-sized organisations and collect and disseminate procurement data that pertain accurately to each category. The Office of Government Procurement should set performance indicators for micro, small and medium-sized enterprise participation for all public procurers and ensure these performance indicators are monitored and met. The Office of Government Procurement should reduce the size of tenders to make them accessible to the relevant enterprise size. The Office of Government Procurement, in consultation with all relevant stakeholders, should review the current centralised tendering model to provide an alternative approach that better marries cost benefits with wider regional economic and social policy objectives. The Office of Government Procurement should also extend the categorising of suppliers by the number of employees and also a subsidiary classification for companies which are Irish subsidiaries of multinational companies. I would like the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to conduct a study of the impact on local economies and micro or small businesses of public procurement centralisation. That is my list of key recommendations.

In 2014 the Sinn Féin spokesperson on public expenditure and reform, Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, introduced a Private Members' Bill for debate that legislated for the mandatory inclusion of social clauses in all public contracts worth in excess of €1 million. Social clauses are not rocket science, nor are they new. As the Deputy highlighted at the time, Italian clauses favour bidders from less developed regions of the country. Dutch and Danish local government laws provide for requirements to create jobs for the long-term unemployed. German rules allow favourable terms for bidders with a background in the former German lands in Poland, the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia and community benefit clauses have been used in Scotland. All of this shows that social clauses can be introduced.

Recent procurement reform legislation introduced in Scotland has sought to establish a national legislative framework for public procurement that supports economic growth by delivering social and environmental benefits, supports innovation and promotes procurement processes and systems that are transparent, streamlined, standardised, proportionate, fair and business-friendly. It is worth noting that the Scottish model of procurement defines value for money in procurement as not just being about cost and quality but about the best balance of cost, quality and sustainability. In addition, the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 for England and Wales requires public authorities to have regard to economic, social and environmental well-being in connection with public services contracts and for connected purposes.

I want to briefly talk about the new EU procurement directives. As Members will know, three new directives came into effect in 2014 and they should all have been transposed into Irish law by April this year. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, has, as part of its charter for fair conditions at work, included fair public procurement as one of the campaign's five demands. It has called for a fair transposition of the directives in order that the aims of the charter are supported and secured. Article 18(2), the directive which we are waiting for the Minister to transpose states:

Member States shall take appropriate measures to ensure that in the performance of public contracts economic operators comply with applicable obligations in the fields of environmental, social and labour law established by union law, national law, collective agreements or by International, environmental, social and labour law provisions listed in Annex X.

Has the Minister of State read ICTU's campaign document on public procurement? To be honest, having looked at his contribution, I do not believe he has read it because there was no mention of fair wages and the urgent need to transpose the directive into law. I am very concerned. It looks to me as though he will take a minimalist approach when transposing the directive. Frankly, that is not good enough for the thousands of people and the small and medium-sized enterprises that depend on him to take a broader view and ensure robust social clauses are put in place.

I am amazed that the Minister of State mentioned the devolved schools programme. In my previous job I was a trade union official. Does the name Rhatigans ring a bell? Some of the standards of labour, particularly the forcing of people, from employees to the self-employed, took place under the schools programme. My colleagues and I in SIPTU spent five years talking to various Ministers highlighting the abuses and got nowhere, yet here the Minister of State has said the programme is a good example of a social clause. Is he serious? Obviously, a lot of work needs to be done.

We want the Minister of State to do the following: transpose the public procurement directive into Irish law as soon as possible; take a maximalist approach in these areas; provide for fairer procurement rules for micro and small enterprises in the context of environmental, social and employment rights; review compliance and enforcement of labour and employment legal obligations by public contractors and suppliers to be jointly undertaken by the Departments of Public Expenditure and Reform, Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and Social Protection; and, most importantly, in consultation with ICTU, confirm that consultation will take place on the implementation of all of the demands listed in ICTU's charter for fair conditions at work. This is an opportunity for him to make a difference, but, unfortunately, his contribution suggests otherwise.

I welcome the Minister of State. I wish him well in his new role as Minister of State responsible for public procurement.

In terms of public procurement, it is extremely important we do not have a set of regulations and rules that make it impossible for smaller SMEs to tender for a job, which has happened in some areas. Therefore, we need to look at the process again. I am aware of a case where legal services were provided to a Department but now the process has been centralised. Three years have elapsed and I want to know whether this has saved us money. In the case to which I refer, one central body got the work and then subcontracted it to people who provided the service in different areas around the country. Does the group that took over the entire control of the project now take most of the profit, thus leaving the smaller companies with a very tight margin? I am concerned about this matter and also about centralising the purchase of equipment by a Department or statutory agency. When purchasing equipment, one must consider the necessary support services. I worked in the private sector for many years. During that time I saw goods sold at a rate way below that of their competitors, but the person selling the goods made up the difference in the cost of maintenance and servicing. That is something about which we need to be careful when it comes to contracts. In terms of procurement, is an eye kept on instances where the cost of equipment is substantially reduced but the cost of servicing that equipment has increased?

A social development clause is extremely important and is an area in which we need to do a lot more work. I believe we can do so. Can we make further progress? A lot of companies shy away from social clauses, but perhaps that is because they have not been properly explained. I note that the Minister of State mentioned that more than 12,000 companies had registered. I still think that there is a lack of information on how to tender for departmental contracts. It is not as difficult as some people think, yet some shy away from doing so. It is important that there be a better supply of information and there be equal opportunities to grow a business and tender in a competitive manner.

I wish to mention an issue that was raised with us in the past few days, even though I know that it does not come within the direct remit of the Minister of State. I refer to the centralisation of the purchase of goods.

It is happening in a particular area in one Department and I think the Minister of State is aware of what I am talking about. There is serious concern that many smaller operators will now be pushed out and a feeling that a contract will go to an international company. In the past week we had a briefing on the education sector, including the purchase of school books. I know that this is not in the Minister of State's direct area, but people are concerned and the matter needs to be dealt with. I am sure this is happening in other areas also. The information goes out that there is one central contract and many smaller companies then shy away from it. They are concerned that redundancies may follow if this process is to be adopted. I understand this process is being considered for operation in the next three to four weeks. I, therefore, ask the Minister of State to examine that matter and revert to us on it.

I welcome the Minister of State. This issue is of crucial importance, as it was in my previous role with the National Women's Council of Ireland where it was a key area of focus. It is also an important issue for ICTU, the trade unions and the European women's lobby. At a European level, there is a vibrant debate on best practice in this area and I would like to see Ireland at its centre.

Ireland spends €12 billion in public procurement each year, comprising €8.5 billion on services and €3.5 billion on construction. Its importance seeps into every area of life. I urge that our procurement policy not be viewed as a short-term convenient purchasing mechanism but rather as a strategic and key long-term muscle within the State. At its best, it is a lever for positive change - something that can promote an integrated view of society, the economy and the environment which can drive standards and promote inclusion, as we saw in Grangegorman.

At its worst with bad procurement, we saw things such as the direct provision centres where contracts went to companies with offshore accounts and which lacked accountability. We have seen the 999 workers being denied basic dignity. In the end, these situations become a political problem because they are fundamentally political issues. There must be political accountability for this matter and responsibility must be taken in this regard.

While I know that we are not addressing the matter in the House today, the question of educational procurement services is worrying. I understand it is responsible for library procurement. Vigorous research from all sides of the House seems to have difficulty with the procurement issue. Ultimately, if public money is being spent, it is a public charge - be it from the Estimates or local authorities - and it must be politically accounted for. I urge the Minister of State to see if the Office for Government Procurement will in due course take full responsibility for procurement policy and procedures.

We need to move beyond pointing to EU rules. I have seen that happen with JobPath, for example, where we were told the reasons we have this system. There is huge scope for clarity and we need to be clear about the powers and choices we have. This is important in the context of transposing EU Directive 24/2014. It was transposed in May, but, unfortunately, without much public debate as no government had been formed at the time. However, I had an opportunity to contribute to consultations on it back in 2014.

It was recognised that we needed to examine price-quality ratios rather than lowest cost. I was concerned to hear the Minister of State refer to value for money. We have moved past this and the debate is now about the most economically advantageous tender, with long-term thinking, and the price-quality ratios, with a recognition that quality is not an after-effect but a key consideration.

There is scope to take account of economy-wide strategic policy roles and examine the role of social clauses. I am also concerned by the Minister of State's reference to privileging of value for money because that is not the current situation in terms of price-quality ratios. Social clauses are not an add-on or a wish list. This is about ensuring strategic gain for the longest term.

I am also concerned by what the Minister of State mentioned about additional costs not being placed on domestic suppliers relative to other potential suppliers. We do not want a race to the bottom. If any company purports to deliver services in Ireland, it should meet the highest possible standards, regardless of the origin of that company. We certainly do not want to see any dilution.

Moreover, I encourage the Minister of State to come back to Senators on how we may have passed a simple issue of compliance with environmental and employment standards but also how we can look at promising and exceeding positive measures. For example, should a company the staff of which are in receipt of family income supplement which is drawn from the social protection system be advantaged in a tendering process over a company which is seeking to promote the living wage?

I would like to engage further with the Minister of State on two or three other points, but I will move past them as I know that my time is running out. Supports for small and medium enterprises have been addressed. I believe that by promoting standards and supporting companies to meet these standards, we will give them a better opportunity. The moves concerning sheltered workshops are welcome. There is a discretion to divide public contracts into lots. In fact, there is an obligation that when that decision is not made, it should be explained. As regards library services, we have not been presented with a rationale from anybody as to why the decision was made not to divide it into lots.

The ring-fencing of contracts for social enterprises and the extension of the grounds for including suppliers are important issues, on which there has been positive movement. I ask the Minister of State to return to the House with a risk analysis of all procurement services. What are the implications for areas where we have fallen into outsourcing? What are the mechanisms for returning a public service to direct public delivery which is currently delivered by contract? I pose this question especially in the light of the TTIP and the potential provisional application of the EU-Canada Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA. How can we ensure we maintain not just our fiscal space but our policy space to ensure the State can choose the best delivery method? How can we ensure regulations which we may wish to introduce are not chilled, become a blank cheque or a hostage to fortune? We should ensure the greatest responsiveness within all services to the regulatory messages that come from the State.

I thank the Minister of State for attending the House. I ask him to return in the autumn to discuss a risk analysis of the current procurement regime and how it can be strengthened to give the maximum policy choice and flexibility.

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on his appointment. I also congratulate the Government on the formation of the Office of Government Procurement. For a long time past, there has been questionable use of taxpayers' money both in terms of how it was being spent and getting value for money. I do not entirely agree with the last speaker in placing the emphasis on value for money, but I do so in the context of value for money representing real value. It is not just the price of everything but the real value that we can add to our society and economy from a socially aware policy. It is welcome that the Minister of State's contribution included the issue of social considerations.

As other speakers said, it is important to cut waste, while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. In that instance, I am really referring to SMEs which are hugely important in supplying the State. They sometimes find the tendering process very difficult but equally find themselves excluded as tenders become bigger. As the last speaker said, library procurement, while not within the Minister of State's remit, is covered in this area. There has been a failure to break that down into regional approaches which would afford smaller businesses an opportunity to bid for tenders. In the past, we had the example of interests in counties Cavan and Monaghan coming together and submitting a tender which was of a size of which many small and medium enterprises could avail.

Other countries have been mentioned. France had its Culture EY report in 2011, whereby it valued the sector at approximately €74.6 billion, with 1.2 million jobs involved. Of this, €5.6 billion was the amount for books and literature.

There are also 79,613 jobs involved. Similarly, if we look to Germany, it takes a much different view. According to a German Minister, Michael Nuamann, books are not just a commodity, but a cultural identity issue which should be valued hugely, and the Germans do so. As pointed out by other speakers, we are faced with a challenge when it comes to libraries. In 2012 three businesses, Rondo in Belfast, Greene's in Dublin and Collins in Cork, closed as a consequence of tenders being beyond what they were capable of meeting. I am also informed that in 2012 we exported Irish books published in Dublin and elsewhere in Ireland to Norwich only to re-import them. We need to look at this. As I said, many of the companies in this area have gone out of business and there is concern that the few remaining will go out of business, including the Open Book Company Library Services, which is in my area. There may be only about four companies remaining that are focused on the library service, but there are many other bookshops and distributors also involved in this area.

In the broader area of government procurement, there is no doubt but that there has been a huge step forward in this area, for which I commend the Government and the Minister. We need to continue to seek value for money but always with a mind and an eye on how it might have broader effects within society, particularly in relation to the small and medium enterprise area and the smaller employer.

When I was the Minister for Health, I came across a small project in respect of which a then recently well qualified architect proposed to bid for the tender, but he was precluded from doing so because of the requirement to have previously completed a tender worth at least €1 million. It is akin to a person seeking a job being required to have experience but being unable to gain experience without first being given a job. All of these things need to be factored in and I have no doubt that the Minister will look at these issues. I appeal to him to do so. I hope he will come back to us with more nuanced solutions later in the year.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to contribute to this important debate. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy. I am pleased he enjoyed his recent visit to Drogheda were we hope to see him again soon.

As stated by colleagues, the Government is by far the largest purchaser of goods and services in the economy, with public procurement alone accounting for approximately 20% of GDP. Given current data, that percentage may need to be recalculated. I look forward to receiving the revised figures. Given the scale and nature of the activity involved, there is a major onus and responsibility on the Government to ensure the opportunities presented by public procurement processes and the resources available are leveraged in the interests of the indigenous economy and, more broadly, society.

The State has been criticised, rather unfairly, by SME owners and managers and some interest groups in the sector for not doing enough to ensure contracts are awarded to Irish SMEs. That criticism is wide of the mark. As evident from the figures provided by the Minister of State, only 7% of expenditure goes to overseas firms. It is no harm to repeat this time and again to ensure it enters the public consciousness. The figures and the analysis are clear. That is not to say more cannot be done to leverage opportunities for Irish businesses to grow and develop and seek opportunities through the public procurement process. As mentioned by colleagues, it is often the case that busy SME owners and managers are extremely busy and find the public procurement process a little convoluted, overwhelming and, at times, confusing. I know that efforts have been made by the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, and the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and others to demystify the process and break down some of the barriers.

The Meet the Buyer events initiated in the past few years have been really important and represent crucial fora for the exchange of information and awareness raising among SMEs about the opportunities that are available. Enterprise Ireland and InterTradeIreland have played a particularly important role in ensuring that as much information as possible is available to SMEs that are interested in dipping their toe in the water in terms of the public procurement process. The Taking Care of Business events operated by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation have also been important in bringing the message to the regions across the country. The Office of Government Procurement has been represented at these events in the past couple of years.

In terms of the way in which we transpose directives, as mentioned by my colleague, Senator Alice-Mary Higgins, the division of the lots or the "explain why not" provision is very important, as is the adjustment in the turnover requirement which generally now is not more than twice the estimated value of the contract. Opportunities are arising all the time for SMEs. We are trying to make the process of accessing public procurement opportunities simpler for SMEs wishing to get involved.

I endorse what Senator Paul Gavan said. It is crucial that we ensure public procurement rules are leveraged in the public interest and for the public good. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, and others have pointed out how we can have progressive approaches to public procurement by providing where we can - as we do - grounds for exclusion from tendering. In Ireland, a company will be excluded if it has broken child labour laws or has been involved in human trafficking, terrorism or fraud, which are obvious grounds for exclusion. There would be no surprises on that front. However, we have to be much more ambitious about leveraging social clauses for contracting arrangements. I know that the Office of Government Procurement has established an interdepartmental group on social clauses, involving a range of agencies and organisations. I support the ICTU approach in terms of the charter published last year that has generated much debate in this House and elsewhere and, importantly, has the support of Members of this and the Lower House. It should be the case that in this country we can use the power of our public procurement system to promote and ensure respect and compliance with our labour laws for collective agreements and fair and decent wages. It is not just good enough to talk about this; we need to be explicit about it in our arrangements.

I am concerned that we still use the statutory instrument system around the transposition of directives relating to public procurement. It is important that we debate properly and, particularly when there are huge public resources involved, how we target and direct public resources. We all understand statutory instruments are an important part of the system but fundamentally they do not involve, by definition, debate in these Houses, which I believe is a flawed way of doing business. We can improve the way in which we transpose directives by way of public debate and transparency. We need more public debate on how we direct scarce but growing resources. The minimalist approach about which Senator Paul Gavan spoke is no longer acceptable in terms of respect for collective agreements and the cause that congress has made. I urge the Minister of State to reflect on the congress document and discuss it with his officials to ensure our approach is not minimalist and is much more ambitious in terms of the public good.

I welcome the Minister of State. I would welcome his views on the impact of the public procurement and competitive tendering process on the social inclusion activation projects.

Public procurement projects have a role to play in economic recovery. If the funds are directed to enhance the economic and social development of the area they are in, there need to be social clauses to ensure those who are hit hardest by austerity feel the benefit of any increased spend in capital investment. The imposition of social clauses in legislation will be a bulwark against the worst effects of the TTIP and the Canadian agreement. In 2015 the Government agreed to support a Sinn Féin Bill to include social clauses, but it was placed before a committee and forgotten about. It is also clear there is nothing in the fiscal rules preventing the Government from spending more on capital investment projects. These rules have been used as an excuse to prioritise tax cuts over increased spend on public projects.

I also want to raise the issue of the use of public private partnerships which are often touted as a fast track way of getting projects completed where Exchequer funds cannot do it alone. The fact is the Government can now borrow at a rate of 0.4%, a much lower rate than that available to private entities. If inflation is factored in, this means that the Government can effectively borrow money for nothing. Some €9 billion is spent every year on public procurement projects. Social clauses make sure society gets the best value from these. I am also concerned about the Government seeking workers from outside Ireland for many of these upcoming projects at a time when they are cautioning against immigrants returning home in large numbers.

I thank Senators for their contributions and congratulations. They are very much appreciated.

The Office of Government Procurement is a big part of my brief and an important arm of the State, as it was described by one Senator. As there is much we can do with it, I wanted to make sure we could have a proper debate to hear everyone's opinions and thoughts and work together in that regard.

I chair the advisory group with the stakeholders from SMEs in which previously people from the Oireachtas have not participated. Previously, it included the Minister and the stakeholders from advisory groups. We met yesterday and agreed at the next meeting to bring in spokespeople on reform from other parties to open up another element of government work to all sides of the Oireachtas and work together on the issue. We heard the same complaints and have the same issues coming across our desks. We more or less have the same concerns about what is happening in procurement, for small and medium enterprises, in communities where we see Government work being done and wonder why sometimes it feels like people in the community are being excluded from some of that work.

I took detailed notes and will try to touch on everything raised by each speaker, but I will not duplicate a point if it was made by more than one speaker.

Senator Gerry Horkan talked about not wanting to put SMEs at a disadvantage. He is absolutely right. The evidence we have to date in terms of the awards made is that we are not putting them at a disadvantage in terms of what has been won. Only 7% is going outside the country. We have also seen that Irish SMEs and businesses are more successful abroad than other companies are here, which is another important factor. That does not mean that we cannot improve the access to this new centralised procurement process, which is essentially a new Government service by the Office of Government Procurement. We are looking at this all the time and it was something I raised with stakeholders yesterday in our meeting. Are we doing enough? Are the buyer events good? Yes, they are good, but there is still a lack of clarity on certain processes. There is still a misunderstanding of the difficulty of applying for certain tenders and frameworks. We had a recent meeting with a group of SMEs in a particular area on procurement processes which a number of Deputies and Senators had organised. I extend an invitation to everyone here. If Senators have a group of businesses in a particular industry that believe they have been excluded from something for some reason, I am more than happy to meet them. We have a tender advisory service that was put in place and under the programme for Government we will review it. The purpose of some of the new changes we have brought in on foot of directives is to engage with industry before a framework is put in place and a tender is put out to make sure we cover all the nuances there might be in that industry or part of the country. We will look at the framework we have put in place or the service being tendered and whatever little measures might be put in to make sure we are not doing something that might damage an industry or exclude people when it was not our intention to do so.

In so far as the ombudsman and that role is concerned, we discussed this just the other day. There is a programme for Government commitment to consult on the merits of such an office and we will begin that consultation soon. It will be an agenda item for the next quarterly meeting to see exactly how we will engage in that consultation. The new tender advisory service is still bedding down. People are not fully aware of how they can engage at that side of the process. We will look to see what the merits are of an ombudsman on the other side of the process after an award has been granted. We heard in the meeting yesterday that in another country their ombudsman's office has 200 lawyers working in it. We have to be careful about creating a beast that had the right intentions but became something else entirely. We will consult on the merits of it and what it might look like. We will discuss how best to engage in this consultation at the next quarterly meeting. On payment timelines, a new law has just been brought in on a 30-day cap in one particular industry and we will look at how it might be extended beyond that industry.

Everyone touched on social clauses, which are positive. The pilot schemes were successful. We will move forward with this model and see where we can introduce social clauses, where they can work and where they can work to maximum effect. At the same time we have to be mindful of displacing existing jobs in a small business or excluding very small businesses through a social clause where it might not be fair to do so. We have to bear in mind their own view. I want to roll these out more and see them in every aspect of procurement, if we can do this. We will work quite vigorously towards it. The quarterly meetings are happening and I will be inviting in spokespeople from other parties outside the Government. It is an important part of reforming what we are doing.

As for Senators getting a copy of the speech, if I can, I will certainly do it. I could have provided it yesterday evening, but as this is my first time to appear in the Seanad, I was not quite sure of the mechanisms to be employed, but I can do it next time.

Senator Paddy Burke made a number of interesting points and focused on the huge amount of money we had been spending. He made the point - I think it is an important one - that there was waste and that there were practices and inefficiencies in previous years over which one could not stand in spending public money. The new OGP structure throws a huge amount of transparency on the procurement process. That is good for Irish businesses because the market has to be open and fair and seen to be open and fair. Centralising the process allows us to do this and to make sure small and medium enterprises, or any enterprise tendering for Government goods or services, can trust that the process is fair. We cannot be too rigid - flexibility is important. It is also important that we can adapt our processes where we identify problems, where an individual flags something or something is flagged to me or when we go back and do a retrospective analysis of a particular tendering or framework agreement. If we identify problems, our immediate instinct should not be to defend the system, rather it should be to see where we can actually adapt it and improve it in order that we do not make the same mistakes again. That is important in every aspect of government, not just in procurement.

We have brought down the minimum turnover figure. I am not sure there is full awareness of how it has been brought down. There is a question as to whether we can bring it down further in certain areas. We have to look at this because in certain industries, certain services that are procured might be operating at a very low tender level and a very low turnover level in terms of the business . This was brought to my attention recently by a group of local businesses. It is something at which I am looking and I will have some more information on it soon. Problems with the documentation is one of these red tape or regulation aspects where a business wants to apply for a tender, but the process is seen as too lengthy or complicated. That is a problem. If there is a particular process where that was encountered, I would like to hear about it. The purpose of the Meet the Buyer events and everything we do is to communicate, go out, be proactive and try to help people to understand this is a new process; therefore, it might look different, but we do not want it to be any more complicated or difficult than it was before. If there are issues around safety inspections being too onerous on vehicles, that is an aspect for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. It might be best to bring it to his attention. We do not want to get in the way of businesses doing good business, but at the same time we have to respect safety records and ensure that when we are procuring vehicles or anything like that, they are up to a certain minimum standard. That would be taken care of in the procurement process.

I reiterate to Senator Paddy Burke and others that I am happy to meet small businesses or a number of businesses in a particular industry. I will go out and do this. I did it when Senator Gerald Nash was Minister of State. When I went to Drogheda, I was on my way to Belfast to a Meet the Buyer event.

Unfortunately, Dáil business meant I could not attend that meeting, but I am more than happy to meet businesses in their localities or workplaces in order to better understand the problems they may face when it comes to procurement.

Senator Paul Gavan referred to Chambers Ireland. Its representatives sits on the advisory group and feed in its views; therefore we have direct access to the views of stakeholders, which is very helpful. We do not prioritise the cheapest price, which is an important point, rather we look for value which can be calculated in different ways. In terms of value for money, I do not mean just the bottom line. I am considering it in different ways. We have a price-quality ratio. If Senators would like to submit a question to my office, I have lot of information on the factors pertaining to how procurement works. In terms of what we consider when we award contracts, 25% of the time price is a consideration.

We need to send that message because if there is a perception that we are just looking for the cheapest price, that is not good for people's faith in the procurement process. We are not just looking for the cheapest price. At the same time, if Senators are aware of business or a tender being awarded on the basis of what they felt was the cheapest price while quality or other factors were not taken into account, I would like to hear about it because it can help to inform future tenders and frameworks that are put in place.

There was a question mark over a figure. Only 7% of what the Government purchases goes to companies abroad. I reiterate that Irish companies are doing far better when they access other markets in winning government purchasing contracts in other countries. That is key to everything we are doing and we are getting better at it all the time. Of course, there is somewhat of a lag effect.

The Office of Government Procurement been established. It took time for it to get up and running, recruit staff and get to work. It could then start to examine data. In the reports I see on the frameworks put in place and the data for the savings achievements made in a given year, I can say we are still playing catch-up, but we are getting more information all of the time which helps what we are doing.

Definitions are important, in terms of what we are defining. If we know what we are defining or are able to better improve our data collection, we can have more granular data. In that case, we will not just be talking about SMEs, rather we can talk about micro-enterprises and every level of Irish business entering into the process.

Lotting helps us to reduce the size of tenders and we can lot by geography and other criteria. The issue arose recently in terms of the size of lots. If we lot by geographical location, we need to make sure the areas involved are not too big. If we lot by an amount or a particular type of service, we need to consider whether we could have broken things down further to make sure we are getting the best value not just in terms of money but also in terms of the expertise in the industry or whatever might be provided in the value chain.

Judging the impact on local economies is something the new budgetary oversight and scrutiny process flagged with the Department. If we are going to introduce gender and equality-proofed budgets, we need to determine whether we can consider proofing them in terms of local, regional or county impact, something that was part of the discussions on the formation of a Government. It is something the budgetary oversight committee is examining and I understand it hopes to do this when the new budgetary oversight office is put in place. It is something to explore, if that is possible.

I referred to social clauses. New directives have all been transposed and ICTU was consulted. If a Senator is aware of a concern ICTU has or that it felt it was not listened to or consulted properly, I would love to hear more about it.

Procurement policy should not just be a purchasing mechanism, rather we should use it as a lever for positive change. I fully agree with Senator Alice-Mary Higgins on that point. It is a great statement and she said it more eloquently than I did - I could not write it down quickly enough. It is something I want us to achieve.

What is the purpose of the State? That is a bigger question than procurement, but it is an aspect of State behaviour. It is a tool and arm of the State. We make sure that when it uses and leverages that arm, it is working in the best interests of Irish society and not just acting in a very narrow way in terms of the fiscal narrative. The State needs to be mindful of and not waste taxpayers' money. There are different ways of calculating waste. I agree with that proposition and we can examine it.

Unfortunately, libraries are not my responsibility. People have raised the issue and I want to be clear that I was not wasting the time of anybody in the House if that is all he or she wants to talk about. That has not been the case. I am grateful for the contributions in every area. I wish I was responsible for the area and could speak about it. It is a kink in the bureaucracy that I am not able to do so, but I should be able to do so. It is something we are considering.

There is always flexibility in EU rules and we need to make sure we are being flexible and creative where possible to ensure we are taking full advantage of new directives and ensuring they work for what we want to achieve as a state.

I talked about value for money not just being about price; therefore, I will not repeat that point. Senator Alice-Mary Higgins raised it, but it is not just about the bottom line for me or the Office of Government Procurement. I spoke about price-quality ratios, social classes and bringing the wider economic, social and environmental focus into our procurement policies. Senator James Reilly referred to the achievement of real value. When I talk about value for money, I mean the real value, not just the financial amounts involved or the argument that the cheapest is the best.

In terms of coming back with a risk analysis, I am at the disposal of the House to return to discuss issues regarding the TTIP and other framework agreements and making sure we do not narrow our policy choices and responses. I made similar points about corporation tax and whether we would be giving up competencies in that area at a future date.

The more we outsource competencies, the more we outsource responsibilities. We can then point to dummies or phantoms outside ourselves because it suits us to run away from decisions and responsibility. I am not in favour of developing any more responsibility higher up and passing things up the chain. We should try to keep our responsibilities within the Parliament and, where we can, devolve more responsibilities to local authorities.

Senator Gerald Nash spoke about State procurement in the public interest, a point on which I touched. I agree with him. He made his point on data quite well and I have clarified the position. He referred to simplifying and demystifying the process. I have not yet attended a Meet the Buyer event. I was on my way to one, but Dáil business got in the way. All the feedback I am getting from the advisory group I chair which involves stakeholders is that the events are very successful, hundreds of businesses have attend them, they learn a lot and come away happier having attended. That does not mean that we cannot improve our communications. It is something we need to keep on doing. I again repeat that we have made changes. There is a new system and we have to keep on communicating the changes until they are old and people are looking for new things.

When we examine things like lotting, decreasing the threshold for turnovers, etc., we find many businesses are not necessarily aware of such things. The engagement I have had with a group of small businesses from particular industries shows me that they were aware of some of the changes that had happened but that they were not aware of their impact on their industry until it was almost too late. That is not a situation in which we want to find ourselves. We need to get out in front in that regard. A Meet the Buyer event is just one way of doing it. There are other go-to tender events and other work we are doing.

Senator Gerald Nash referred to social clauses. I have been interested in them for quite a while. The pilot projects were successful. We are now in a good position to do more and I want us to do so.

I have not seen the Sinn Féin Bill. If it is at Committee Stage, I would be very happy to discuss it. There are many possibilities now open to committees that were not available when I sought more powers for committees and opportunities to bring forward ideas or legislation from a party or individual in the previous Dáil. I would love to engage further on the Bill. We can arrange a more informal engagement ahead of a committee schedule to discuss where we can meet each other on the Bill and see what can be done.

Public private partnerships are important. The State can leverage and invest a significant amount. We are increasing the money we are spending on capital projects where we have space to do so. The capital investment plan was announced last year which involves a large commitment of over €24 billion. We will review the position again next year and determine whether the figure can be increased. That is not to say there is no role for private money. It is not just about private money; it is also about private expertise. We need to try to link it where it makes sense to do so. It is true to say there are some worrying developments down the line regarding the application of public private partnerships or the rules pertaining to them and how they might be counted by EUROSTAT. We are defending ourselves and indicating how we see the rules and the danger of what a reinterpretation might mean for our ability as a state to invest prudently in capital areas, where necessary. The Taoiseach has made that case to the European Union. Where there are opportunities to work together, we will take them.

I think I have covered everything. If not, I can return to the House. I thank Senators for giving me the opportunity to speak, their very positive engagement and the constructive ideas that have come from all those who have contributed.

I wish the Minister of State well in his new brief and a successful tenure.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 13 July 2016.
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