International Protection (Family Reunification) (Amendment) Bill 2017: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Senator Paul Gavan

How does one follow a speech like that? I have been here only a year but this is the most depressing moment of my time in the Seanad, hearing a Minister be so cold, callous and out of tune with his colleague, Senator Conway, who spoke very well, and with all parties in this Chamber. I have to be blunt - the Minister's speech was a disgrace, an absolute cold-hearted disgrace. It is easy to take pops at Senator Ó Riordáin. We know Labour got it wrong in 2015 and, yes, it was warned. I quote Senator Ó Clochartaigh from 2 December 2015 when he described the Bill as a "Trojan horse" that is rolling back on the human rights provisions of existing legislation and boy was he right.

None of us get it right all the time. I applaud Senator Ó Riordáin's speech this evening and those of my colleagues in Civil Engagement and Fianna Fáil. It seems everyone is wrong except the Minister; even his Fine Gael colleague is wrong because he is right. It is cold, callous and shameful. It is not surprising that the Minister is on record as supporting apartheid in Israel. We know where he stands on the political spectrum - somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan. He should be ashamed of himself.

I was at a presentation yesterday and we were all moved by it. Is the Minister telling me that the people at the Migrant Rights Centre are making up these allegations and that there is no basis for these claims or is he just not prepared to listen? I recognise Fianna Fáil's support for this Bill. I appeal to Senator Conway and his colleagues to have some courage because their Minister has been nothing less than disgraceful tonight. It does not surprise me because that is the tradition from which he comes. Not everyone in Fine Gael is like that. There are people with decent views in all parties. Are we going to let these people down? Are we going to make sure that families cannot be united? We know the Minister wants to do that but surely to God, collectively, we are better than that. The Minister should be ashamed of himself. This is the lowest point I have witnessed in this Chamber.

Senator Lynn Ruane

If Senator Gavan did not know how to follow the Minister, I do not know how to follow his speech other than to concur with what he said. I am proud to be associated with this Bill. I thank my colleagues and I particularly thank Senator Kelleher for her role in it. All of the main points have been made.

The International Protection Act 2015 might have been debated in these Houses but the Seanad and Dáil are very different now, with very different people in them. Senator Ó Riordáin might have been in the previous Government and will pay his penance for ever more for that but the rest of us were not. Had we been part of a Seanad that saw such a consequence come from the previous legislation, we would have made sure that it was not passed. I thank Fianna Fáil and Labour for recognising that sometimes Bills are passed and that we do not see their consequences straight away. Sometimes it is only on reflection that we see we should have done something else.

Fine Gael should acknowledge that we do not get everything right all the time. It says more about us when we say, for example, that we should not have passed a Bill in its entirety and that we now have a chance to fix a part of it which would go a long way towards improving matters.

In general, the practical impact and effects of the International Protection Act have been extraordinarily concerning. We have all heard testimony about the vast and confusing new applications forms being issued. Refugees who have been in the system for years have been forced to start new application processes within unfairly tight deadlines and where the translations of the application forms into their native languages have been done using the Google translate site. I do not know whether the Minister has ever translated any text using that site, but sometimes it gets it completely wrong; therefore, I can only imagine what is being produced from it. People are signing forms without understanding what they involve because they are extremely scared about the prospect of deportation and opening themselves up to legal challenges as a result. Is the Minister confident that the Bill is fit for purpose? Since we are considering ways in which it could be improved, will he consider conducting a full review of the Act and some of its clear failings in practice?

I was going to go into what "family" means, but, as the previous speakers articulated that so well, there is no point in doing so. I will finish with a quote from the late Tony Benn which adds to what Senator Paul Gavan said, "The way a Government treats refugees is very instructive because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they thought they could get away with it."

Senator Colette Kelleher

I feel a little like Senator Paul Gavan. I am very disappointed that the genuine concerns expressed which are evidence-based and based on the real life experiences of people on the ground were not considered. The people concerned are finding that the new order, the new regime, is not humane. It is not working for them, despite the best of intentions, in the way intended when the Act was put in place, but as I was not here at the time, I do not know as I did not contribute to that debate. It is brave for a Minister or any of us in our position to reflect on the reality of the information coming to us and say we did not expect or intend it to happen, but now that we are seeing it happen, we will take stock and reconsider. Rather than being harsh with Senator Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, I thought it was incredibly brave of the Minister to say what he did. He did not have to be here tonight; he could have been somewhere else and could have been paired. He could have avoided this debate, but he did not. He came and reflected on what he had been part of. We have all been in such situations. I have been responsible for many vulnerable adults and not everything for which I was responsible was always right. Sometimes the people around me and I got it wrong. The problem with that is, particularly in not getting it right for refugees and helping their families to connect with them or making it harder rather than easier, that it has a devastating impact on thier lives.

I welcome Fianna Fáil's support for the Bill, which was given with caveats. All we want to do is reflect on a recent Act and highlight the problems arising to see if we can make things better, all in the spirit of family. As a citizen of this country, I do not want to be regarded as someone who gives with one hand and takes with the other and who has a mean-spirited attitude. Refugees are persons who need refuge and protection. We need to consider the merits of every person's case and understand that, like all of us, he or she comes from a family system. I heard a woman in Cork speak recently. Her mother has breast cancer, but she cannot bring her to this country and is suffering as a result. I do not know how I would feel in that situation. If it would not be good enough for me, why should it be good enough for her?

I am very disappointed the Minister is not able to support us. I am sure we will disagree on many issues, but I am very disappointed he will not hear us out. I am very sad that he is unable to take on board the genuine comments we have all made across the House. I appreciate the support of my fellow Senators, including the Minister's colleague, Senator Martin Conway, who would like to see the Bill proceed to the next Stage when we could tease out some of the points the Minister and others have raised in order to reach a better conclusion and do the right thing by people.

Question put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 24; Níl, 17.

Tá

Bacik, Ivana.
Black, Frances.
Boyhan, Victor.
Conway-Walsh, Rose.
Craughwell, Gerard P.
Daly, Mark.
Devine, Máire.
Dolan, John.
Gallagher, Robbie.
Gavan, Paul.
Higgins, Alice-Mary.
Horkan, Gerry.
Kelleher, Colette.
Leyden, Terry.
McDowell, Michael.
Mullen, Rónán.
Nash, Gerald.
Ó Donnghaile, Niall.
Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
O'Sullivan, Grace.
O'Sullivan, Ned.
Ruane, Lynn.
Warfield, Fintan.
Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

Burke, Colm.
Butler, Ray.
Buttimer, Jerry.
Byrne, Maria.
Coffey, Paudie.
Coghlan, Paul.
Conway, Martin.
Feighan, Frank.
Hopkins, Maura.
Lombard, Tim.
McFadden, Gabrielle.
Mulherin, Michelle.
O'Donnell, Kieran.
O'Donnell, Marie-Louise.
O'Mahony, John.
O'Reilly, Joe.
Richmond, Neale.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Colette Kelleher and Grace O'Sullivan; Níl, Senators Gabrielle McFadden and John O'Mahony.

Question declared carried.

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017