Senators Buttimer and Norris have agreed to share time on this.
Commencement Matters
Education Centre Network
I very much welcome the Minister. I know he has had to leave a Cabinet meeting and I really appreciate his presence in the Seanad. I also very much appreciate the fact that the Leader has asked for time. I am happy to give him two of my four minutes.
This matter is about education centres, ECs, and the appointment of directors. Education centres lead and manage continuing professional development for primary and post-primary teachers. They also manage support services for the Department of Education and Skills, working specifically with teacher education services. There are 21 full-time ECs in Ireland. In developed countries, the position of director is permanent. The contract is for a five-year period in this country and the Minister proposes now to limit the appointment to one five-year period. Also, in August of this year on foot of a legal note indicating that no directives had been issued under section 37 of the Education Act 1998 to include regulations, he decided to include regulations. The Drumcondra EC was only alerted to the new regulations on 22 August, eight days before they took effect. It replied on 24 August but received no response from the Department. There was no official consultation. The effect of these amendments is to ensure directors would be limited to one five-year period in the post. Previously, in 2012, the then Minister had agreed that this policy was a mistake and should not be implemented. A subsequent Minister said the same and so did the Taoiseach.
Circular 11/02 from the Department of Education and Skills states that in the case of existing secondment to Department programmes, an application for a further extension may be considered. The Minister reappointed a director to the Teaching Council in May this year and, therefore, there is a clear contradiction. The result of the new regulation will be that by September 2018, some 18 of the 21 directors will have two years or less experience. As a result of this, corporate memory, connections, experience, knowledge and skill will all be lost. On a human level, one director relocated her house to a position one minute from DEC. She will now have to return to a school, which is many miles away, and she will also lose 15 years of pension entitlements. Eight directors will return after 15 years to an alien teaching environment. A reply from the Minister to a parliamentary question tabled by Deputy John Curran on 28 September is riddled with inaccuracies. For example, no account is taken of the fact that directors come from management ranks and not from teaching positions. Secondments were not required to be certified until 2007.
The Senator is leaving little time for Senator Buttimer.
I am sure the Chair will be flexible.
I will give the Minister the document I have because I want him to examine the job description specifically, which is all about management and not at all about teaching. Will he revise the situation and allow for a director to apply for reappointment? I will give him the documents I have.
As a teacher myself, I recognise the importance of professional curriculum development and ECs. As Senator Norris said, this matter is about not losing corporate knowledge. Being out of a school for five years is an eternity in the education world. This is about ensuring that we continue to have upskilling, training, and professional curriculum development, which is an integral part of our education system. ECs play a key, pivotal role in driving change and in upskilling and professional development. I know first-hand of the professionalism, attention to duty and care of those who work in the professional development unit and in our ECs. It is important to make the post of director of EC permanent for one reason only, which is corporate knowledge. It is difficult to return to the classroom when one has been in a management position as a director of education.
I thank the Senators for raising this. There is a good deal of misunderstanding in this area. These posts have always been on secondment. They were never designed to be permanent management posts and they were always renewed on a yearly basis. They have never been permanent positions and they are not management positions. The approach the Department has always taken is that it wants those who direct these centres to have recent education experience and to ensure they are drawn from and refreshed from the pool of people teaching in the classroom because the policy is that those who have that active and recent learning experience are best placed to develop the programmes that serve teachers.
It has also been the policy that those teachers who have been in an education centre on a temporary secondment can go back to their schools and enrich the environment. As the Senators are aware, the most important thing in any school is the quality of leadership and teaching. Those teachers who have had experience in these centres and have been exposed to the learning there can enrich the position of their own schools. That is important background to this. It was never intended that these would be permanent management positions. They have been consciously designed as drawing from active teachers for a period. The policy up to 2010 had allowed a year-on-year roll-on and it was decided at that point not just to reduce the number but to have five-year terms. I think that policy is correct. It allows that rotation, the return to the classroom and the refreshing of the people who are in it.
The Senator suggests there has been no consultation on this but that is not the case. This was introduced in 2010, seven years ago. People in those posts were allowed to get a new contract. At the end of that period, because people were concerned, there was a negotiation and agreement was reached that there would be a three-year phase where people would rotate out, and that would give time for succession planning. This was not taken up by many of those individuals and, as the Senators know, there has been a suggestion that the Department did not have an entitlement to execute the policy, which was that these are secondments, which are temporary in nature. Therefore, we have had to introduce a statutory instrument to ensure we do have that authority and that there is no doubt about the authority.
I never said that the Minister did not have the authority.
That policy has always been the policy but the statutory instrument and the regulations were not in place.
It is also important to say that many hundreds of teachers have rotated out on this basis. There are some directors who do not want to rotate out but we believe it is the right policy. Where we have replaced the directors, we have obtained very good people and there has not been disruption to the management of these centres. That has been in more than half of the centres, given ten have been replaced.
This is the right policy. I believe the investment in leadership and teacher upskilling is one of the most important investments we can make. It is a very dynamic environment where we want to continually see fresh blood coming through. The priorities change. It is now about rolling out digital and how people execute digital in the classroom whereas, at other times, it will be about assessment. For example, we now have the junior cycle, which now involves a portfolio of assessment and a move away from the rigid terminal examination model. All of that creates a need. At different times we need different capacities and the Department must have the flexibility to plan those capacities and deliver them in a flexible way.
It is important to note that the 21 education centres have been very valuable and have done very good work. However, I absolutely believe the approach we are taking is the right approach. I am undertaking a very detailed assessment of the whole CPD, as they call it in the jargon of the Department, both in terms of leadership and upskilling, in order to make sure the 3% of payroll we invest in this, which is a substantial amount at over €100 million, is spent in the very best possible way. I want to get best practice. It is one of my ambitions that we would have an education and training service that is the best in Europe within a decade. I think we can do better in this area and it is an area I want to improve. I appeal to Senators. Moving back to saying these are management positions that should be there forever is not the way in which we can create a dynamic environment for supporting teachers to upskill and have that rotation in and out of classroom activity that is at the heart of the current policy.
I thank the Minister for his reply, although I am rather disappointed with it. I am not looking to create a permanent post. All I am looking for, and I would like the Minister to consider this, is to allow the directors to reapply for a second five-year term. If they are particularly good or have particular skills, I think it would be in everybody's interest that they be allowed to apply a second time. I appeal to the Minister, in light of the documentation I am going to present to him, to consider just this - just to allow them to reapply, which does not mean they are going to get it. We should not apply a very strict, iron rule.
My only concern is that we should not allow that corporate knowledge to be lost. I agree with Senator Norris. I have never looked for permanency but it is about that second five-year term. I agree with the Minister on the need for flexibility and to invest wisely and the 3% is a considerable amount of money. However, as the Minister knows, he is getting good people. While he is right to carry out an audit, I ask that we would have flexibility because it is very difficult for people, having been out of school for five years, to go back to school again.
When this policy came in, other teachers who had been in the system for 15 years had to go back into the school room, and support was provided for the transition. Many of the directors have been in post for ten and sometimes 15 or 20 years. I do not think that is at all in accord with a secondment policy. Secondment is, by its nature, temporary. These are year-on-year renewals. We are willing to allow a second term where someone has returned to the classroom for a period and then comes back again, and I think that is quite acceptable. However, the idea that, effectively, we keep rolling on those who are there, and that what is designed as temporary becomes permanent by lack of ever intervening, is not a good way to manage this. We believe that having this renewal within the directors is the right policy. It has worked and we are getting very good people to come in and out, and to go back and enrich the school.
While I understand that people do not like disruption in their lives and so on, and would like a temporary secondment to become forever, that was never intended and we never made any such commitment. We will try to be flexible with the people involved. We have given extensions but we have reached the point where we have to have a policy that is workable and gives us the capacity, as a Department, to plan and execute what is a really important area of departmental work.
Does this mean the Minister has not totally closed his mind to a possible second application?
I have. That is not in the regulations, which provide for one five-year term. People can come back and apply for a second term but, as I understand it, that is after they have been back in the school environment. They can then have a second term on a second occasion.
Emergency Planning
First, I extend my condolences to the families of Clare O'Neill, Michael Pyke and Fintan Goss who lost their lives in Storm Ophelia. The loss of their lives is a fitting reminder of the dangers that extreme weather events can cause. We must all pay tribute to the phenomenal emergency services workers who went to work as usual on Monday, leaving their own families behind to ensure the safety of others. The ESB and local authority staff have worked around the clock to keep us all safe.
Storm Ophelia was the worst storm to hit Ireland in more than 50 years and, despite being downgraded as an ex-hurricane, almost 300,000 homes were left without power, schools and businesses closed and our public service broadcaster, RTÉ, had special programming all day to keep us informed of the storm's trajectory. All of this was co-ordinated, of course, by the work of the national emergency co-ordination group. Nonetheless, acts of stupidity were carried out, with incidents in Louth, Galway and Kerry where the reckless behaviour of a few risked their lives and the lives of others. I think of the volunteers in Clogherhead and Greenore in County Louth who had to go out bravely into the full force of the hurricane because of two kite surfers. I ask why they were obliged to put their lives in danger just because of the stupidity and selfishness of others. John Draper from Valentia Coast Guard wrote that Monday was, "A never-ending cycle of telling people not to risk lives".
The actions of those surfers and swimmers who took to the water despite the constant pleas from the authorities were nothing short of anti-social behaviour. They put the lives of others at risk. Niamh Fitzpatrick, sister of Captain Dara Fitzpatrick who tragically lost her life on Rescue 116, adequately summed up the feelings of many of us when she urged people to "PLEASE cop on". Her language was temperate compared to that which I and others would have used with regard to these fools.
What are the sanctions and who is responsible for enforcing them? I have drafted legislation which would impose harsh penalties on those who damage lifesaving equipment such as defibrillators and lifebuoys. The fact that such legislation is necessary is also a sad indictment of where our society stands. The political scientist Robert Putman wrote a book called Bowling Alone and warned that our stock of social capital, the networks of relationships we have with people, marked by reciprocity, trust, and co-operation, have plummeted, damaging all our lives and communities. This is evident in the number of people who selfishly took to the seas on Monday despite the numerous warnings to stay indoors.
I fully support entirely my Fianna Fáil colleague, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, who has advised me that he will draft legislation to give emergency responders the protection they deserve by imposing deterrents on those who decide to be reckless and put lives in danger. Yesterday in the Dáil, my party leader, Deputy Micheál Martin, called on all parties to co-operate in bringing in legislation to prevent people taking undue risks against safety advice. Will the Government co-operate with his request? There are many who will label those of us calling for harsh penalties as kill-joys but the O’Neill, Pyke and Goss families know the reality of the danger of the storm.
I am speaking this morning on behalf of Minister for Justice and Equality who sends his regrets that he cannot be present due to other official commitments. He is grateful to the Senator for raising this important matter in the House today.
We will all have seen the reports which emerged on Monday, while Hurricane Ophelia battered our shores, of a number of persons who took to the sea against the advice of Met Éireann, An Garda Síochána and the national emergency co-ordination centre, among others, putting their own lives at serious risk. The Minister shares the frustration and anger of many others who have commented on these incidents. Their blatant disregard for the safety of the brave men and women of our Coast Guard and other emergency services is staggering. The Irish Coast Guard does not have a role in sanctioning people who enter the water in such instances. The primary function of the Coast Guard is search and rescue. Its role is to save, not sanction. The Coast Guard responds to individual incidents on a case by case basis. Each incident is assessed based on severity and on the availability of declared resources to perform a search and rescue safely. The most appropriate and best located resource is tasked based on this assessment.
The Coast Guard, including through its marine search and rescue centres, offers advice in relation to safety matters pertaining to maritime activities as requested. It is more a matter of luck than anything else that no one appears to have been seriously injured while swimming or surfing off the coast on Monday. We need no reminder of the three people who were tragically killed during Hurricane Ophelia and I join the Senator and others in extending my sympathy, and that of us all, to their families and friends. These were really tragic events. Weather events such as Hurricane Ophelia are a rarity on this island. This was Ireland’s first national red alert. There is now a danger that these weather events will become more frequent and the Minister is aware of the calls for the introduction of sanctions for the kind of behaviour which the Senator has outlined.
While there are no specific sanctions in place, the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 allows a Garda member in certain circumstances to direct people to desist from acting in certain ways that give rise to a reasonable apprehension for the safety of persons and to leave the vicinity of the place concerned. Failure to comply with a direction in this instance constitutes an offence punishable by a fine not exceeding €1,000, imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or both. Of course, for a Garda member to make such a direction he or she must be present at the incident, which will often not be the case when dealing with such behaviour because of the danger involved.
We should be cautious of seeking a legislative response to every issue that causes concern but, as the Taoiseach said yesterday, it may be that introducing some kind of sanction for this kind of behaviour should be considered, perhaps, as the Senator has suggested, on an all-party basis. I assure the Senator that the Government is very open to looking at such proposals. The Minister has asked me to conclude by saying that, ultimately, people need to take responsibility for their own actions and for putting their lives and those of others at risk. The simple fact is that if people would exercise some common sense and find within themselves a trace of respect for those who risk their own lives to save others, we would not be here having this discussion.
I welcome the potential for an all-party solution. Those of us who work in the emergency services respond when the bleep goes off. We treat the patient who presents in front of us. We deal with the fire and do our best. It is not the time to examine the causes during the emergency, but in the cold light of day one often thinks about what is called contributory negligence. Surely if a person enters the water against the expressed wishes of the Coast Guard, An Garda Síochána or other authorities, he or she should be liable for all costs associated with his or her rescue. We are only talking about incidents which take place while a full red weather warning has been issued by the Coast Guard. Eugene Clonan of the Irish Coast Guard was clear that people should stay away from the coastline and the water when he said:
I’d like to reiterate for recreational users to stay off the water. This is an unprecedented weather system that we’re going through. We have not experienced this before and we want people to stay safe. We urge people to stay away from the coastline.
We might examine whether an all-party solution to this issue might be found. We might also consider the idea of contributory negligence in this regard and whether some costs may be attributed to the people who are wasting the time of the emergency services.
On behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality, I again thank the Senator for providing the opportunity to discuss this very important issue during this debate today. I am very happy to pass the Senator's comments and suggestions to the Minister and to the other Ministers who have responsibilities in the area of maritime safety and extreme weather.
As I said, the best outcome for all would be for no such incidents to occur in the first place. Prevention is better than cure. In this context, the Coast Guard undertakes a variety of campaigns designed to target particular audiences, in respect of safety at sea in particular. These take the form of media awareness campaigns in the main. The Coast Guard participates in joint initiatives with other maritime bodies. One such initiative is www.safetyonthewater.ie, which aims to promote safe behaviour and practice. This website is a valuable tool to communicate advice and guidance online to the public. It should not, however, take a media campaign for people to know that they should be nowhere near the water during the worst storm on record ever to hit the country. It is a question of personal responsibility. I repeat that the Government is open to hearing any proposal on how and whether this matter should be addressed. I will report back on the points the Senator has made today. This overall issue is one which might be looked at and should be looked at on an all-party basis.
Driving Test Waiting Lists
It is my privilege to welcome the Minister of State to the House. It is the first opportunity we have had since his elevation. He is very welcome.
I thank the Acting Chairman.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House and congratulate him on his appointment. He is very welcome but I want to put on the record that I had been expecting the Minister, Deputy Shane Ross, because the officials in his Department contacted my office to reschedule. This Commencement matter was originally agreed approximately two weeks ago. Having had ongoing contact with the Seanad Office, which indicated that it could not be changed, these officials made contact with my office and indicated that the date would be 18 October as it suited the Minister. We have this in correspondence and in emails. They said that this particular occasion would suit the Minister because he was anxious to be here to address the matter. Clearly there is a meeting of the Cabinet and he is busy. I appreciate that. I would not have delayed this matter for so long, however, had I thought that the Minister would not be here. That is an important point I wish to make.
I welcome the Minister of State. There are 52 driving test centres in the country. Despite all the promises made by the Minister and the officials in his Department to address the long waiting lists for people who wish to take tests, we now know that none of the driving test centres under the responsibility of the Road Safety Authority, RSA, has met its target, which was to have an average waiting period of ten weeks. I looked at the files and have tracked this every month for the past year. Looking back at February 2017, we were told in this House that additional people and resources would be provided, but it has not happened.
I am more interested in hearing what the Minister of State has to say rather than what I have to say because I know the case. All over the country, people are waiting up to and over 22 weeks. As recently as the week before last, I received a letter from the RSA. I have had very little correspondence from the Department in this regard despite my best efforts. The RSA contacted me and gave me these examples. In Buncrana, County Donegal, people are waiting 19 weeks.
People in Donegal are waiting 24 weeks and those in Letterkenny are waiting 21 weeks.
The implications of this are that students and people who study and work across the Border cannot travel if they have not done their driving tests. I refer to students who want to study in Derry. They have some level of driving experience and want to complete their driving tests in order that they might drive on their own. When they need to leave their cars at the university, they cannot do so and they also cannot get jobs. The Government has given a commitment to rural development and to supporting rural communities. People want to sit their driving tests. I want the Minister of State to tell me how he will address and dramatically reduce the waiting lists, how the initiative will be resourced and how many people have been put in place to address the deficit in terms of this major problem for those living in rural areas.
I need to clarify that the Seanad Office never delays a Commencement debate. Senators submit Commencement debates.
The Seanad Office then sends the matters to the Cathaoirleach and he either selects them or not as the case may be. In the case of individual negotiations between Ministers and Departments in order to request things, such matters are entirely between those involved.
I shall clarify the matter. I am very happy to put the matter on the record in case there was any misunderstanding on my part. To be clear, approval was granted for this matter to be debated on the Commencement. The Minister's office contacted the Seanad Office and conveyed to him that it would have to make contact with me, which it did. We discussed dates and I agreed a number of them. Then the Minister's officials - the information is trapped in emails, I mean there is correspondence on the record - indicated that today, 18 October, would be suitable. To clarify, this matter was selected previously but the Minister could not attend the House. Ultimately, I reached an agreement with the Minister but it was on the basis that he would be here today.
I thank the Senator for clarifying the matter. The Minister of State has four minutes.
I thank Senator Boyhan for raising this very important matter.
I cannot comment on the correspondence that has been exchanged between the Senator and the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. All I can say is that the Minister is attending a Cabinet meeting this morning. I suspect that the Cabinet meeting has occurred because of the national emergency that arose on Monday and, therefore, these events were unforeseen and unavoidable. The Cabinet meeting was scheduled to take place now as a direct result of the national effort that was made on Monday and yesterday to avoid the worst possible outcomes of the storm that hit the country on Monday. As I am the Minister of State with special responsibility for tourism and sport, I will read the reply which the Minister has supplied and which deals with the issues raised by Senator Boyhan.
The driver testing service has experienced an increase of almost 20% in the levels of applications during the past four years. This, coupled with the retirement of driver testers, has meant that the waiting times for customers for driving tests have increased. Driving tests are delivered across 52 test centres nationally. The objective of the RSA is to have a national average waiting time of not more than ten weeks. However, the current national average waiting time for a driving test is 14 weeks. The RSA continues to monitor capacity against demand and deploys driver testers to best meet demand across all test centres.
The RSA currently employs almost 100 driver testers. The Department sanctioned the appointment of an additional ten driver testers in October 2016 and a further seven in April of this year. While these assignments have maintained core numbers following retirements, they have not kept pace with the increase in application numbers. Last month, the Department gave sanction to the RSA to recruit a further 11 driver testers. The initiative will allow the RSA to replace retired testers as well as boost driver tester numbers to help alleviate some of the pressures from the sustained increase in demand for tests. It is envisaged that 11 driver testers will be assigned, trained and conducting tests by early 2018. The RSA is undertaking other initiatives - and plans to undertake more - in order to increase capacity to deliver extra driving tests. These initiatives include the delivery of 120 extra overtime tests per driver tester who participates. To date, 49 driver testers have committed to the delivery of the extra tests. It is expected that this initiative will yield at least 5,880 additional tests between October 2017 and March 2018.
A total of 1,184 applicants have been contacted with a view to reducing the number of no-shows for driving tests. As many as 342 tests that would have been lost due to no-shows have been avoided. The tests, in this instance, have been made available to other test applicants. In terms of a reduction in non-conducted driving tests, the RSA will shortly begin communicating with applicants via text messaging and applicants' approved driving instructors, some key messages on the vehicle and document requirements closer to test appointment dates in an effort to reduce non-conducted driving tests.
The RSA plans to introduce, in 2018, a new test booking system that will give applicants much more control over their booking and appointment choice. Regarding people who seek urgent appointments, I am assured by the RSA that there is a priority list whereby cancelled test appointments are made available to such applicants. Over 1,000 tests are cancelled by driving test applicants weekly and these slots are subsequently offered to applicants who require urgent test appointments.
I wish to advise the Senator that the Department has asked the RSA to examine the longer-term staffing needs of the driver tester service to ensure the RSA can plan for a revision of tester numbers based on demand for tests and better manage succession planning in respect of driver testers who may retire. The RSA accepts that current waiting times remain too high but I am assured that the measures it has put in place will have the desired effect of reducing waiting times for the public.
I thank the Minister of State. I wish to advise Senator Boyhan that he has one minute.
I am shocked and surprised by what the Minister of State has said. I am looking at a transcript for February 2017. One might as well have cut and pasted his sentences into the document. It contains exactly the same sentences, commas and everything, which is really interesting. I would like the Minister of State to take a look at the matter. I will take the trouble to send the segment to the Minister today.
I do not agree with the sentence uttered by the Minister of State to the effect that "Driving tests are delivered across 52 test centres". I told him that and he would know that in any event. He also said that the current national average waiting time for a driving test is 14 weeks. I can tell him that this is not the case. I received a letter two weeks ago from the RSA. In that context, I reiterate that the waiting time in Buncrana is 19 weeks, in Donegal it is 24 weeks and in Letterkenny it is 21 weeks. Nowhere in the more than 50 centres does the waiting time meet the target of 20 weeks. No centre comes anywhere near that target. Let me continue with the list of waiting times, which are: Athlone, 21 weeks; Buncrana, 24 weeks, Carrick-on-Shannon, 21 weeks; Clonmel, 26 weeks and so on. None of the centres is delivering. I am shocked that the Minister of State has come in here and said that the Minister is satisfied.
In his final sentence, the Minister of State said that the RSA accepts that waiting times are too long. I suggest that the waiting times are far too long. Local representatives throughout this country have consistently contacted my office in the past 12 months to say that they have met people on a daily basis who cannot get appointments for tests. The situation is grossly unfair. I do not know where the Government's commitment to support people in rural communities who want to access jobs has gone.
We allow a brief supplementary comment. The Senator's time is up.
I have made my point.
I come from a rural community and the Senator does not need to lecture me about the Government's support for such communities. I come from probably one of the most isolated rural communities in the entire country so I am very much aware of the difficulties and challenges that face these communities.
I reiterate that there is an avenue for rural dwellers who need to complete a driving test for work or other purposes. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, over 1,000 tests are cancelled per week. That situation provides an opportunity to people to avail of a test at short notice should there be a work requirement or in a situation where they need to obtain a licence because of where they live or their circumstances. This is an avenue that I encourage anybody to avail of and it is something that my office has assisted people with in the past.
I advise Senator Boyhan to go back to the local representatives who have contacted him and advise them of that avenue rather than stand up here to pontificate and rant about the Government. I suggest that he do something useful and inform people of the avenues that can assist in alleviating the problem.
The figures I have are quite different from those outlined by the Senator.
I give the Minister of State that point.
The Senator quoted figures for Buncrana and various other places.
The Minister of State is being repetitive.
The waiting times are as follows: Killarney, 21 weeks; Clonmel, 20 weeks-----
I can give my letter to the Minister of State as I have it here.
-----Newcastlewest, 20 weeks; Carlow, 19 weeks; Birr, 19 weeks; Kilkenny, 19 weeks; Tralee, 18 weeks; Athlone , 18 weeks; Ennis, 18 weeks; Thurles, 18; Loughrea, 17 weeks; Clifden, 17 weeks; Mullingar, 16 weeks; Shannon, 16 weeks; Longford, 16 weeks; Dungarvan, 16 weeks; Mallow, 16 weeks; Donegal, 16 weeks-----
The Minister of State has made his point.
-----Galway, 16 weeks; Tipperary, 16 weeks; Portlaoise, 16 weeks; Tuam, 16 weeks; Sligo, 16 weeks; Buncrana, 16 weeks; Letterkenny, 16 weeks; Roscommon, 15 weeks; Waterford, 15 weeks; Cork, 15 weeks; Skibbereen, 15 weeks; Nenagh, 15 weeks; Tullamore, 14 weeks; and Wexford 14. The waiting times do get much shorter. The list continues: Kilrush, eight weeks; Limerick, ten weeks; Tallaght, 11 weeks; Ballina, one of the most rural parts of the country, 11 weeks; Naas, 11 weeks; Churchtown, 11 weeks; and Monaghan, 12 weeks.
The Minister of State has made his point.
Senator Boyhan, rather than coming in here and spouting out figures that are inaccurate----
A point of order, Acting Chairman.
-----it would be much more-----
No, I cannot allow the Minister of State to continue.
-----in order if people stuck to the facts.
We are short on time.
I have stated the facts. I can give them to the Minister of State on our way out.
I thank the Minister of State. The House stands suspended until 11.30 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.