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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 2017

Vol. 254 No. 1

Commencement Matters

Health Services Provision

I welcome the Minister of State back to the House. I raise the matter of the need for the Minister for Health to explore the possibility of the HSE rolling out a nationwide sleep training programme to provide expertise to parents facing the challenges of getting their babies and young children to sleep. Some may think that this matter is not as pressing as some of the other problems currently besetting the health service. For many parents with young babies, however, this is a very important topic.

For those unfamiliar with the subject, sleep training is the process of helping a baby learn to fall and then stay asleep through the night. Some babies do this quickly and easily but others have trouble settling down to sleep or getting back to sleep after waking and may need help along the way. I must admit that, up until quite recently, I had never heard of sleep training. My partner and I became very familiar with the concept, however, when we desperately needed advice on how to deal with the challenge of our baby daughter's inability to sleep well. It struck me that there are many other new parents across the country facing the issue of sleep deprivation. There is no doubt but that the problem of a baby who does not sleep can have an impact on the whole household. If a child is not sleeping properly then the parents will not be sleeping properly either. Both the child and the parents will then be out of sorts for the rest of the day.

This can be an absolute nightmare for parents who have gone through or are going through it and anyone who has suffered sleep deprivation on an ongoing basis will appreciate it is like a form of torture. It becomes even worse if the mother wants to return to work and there is no proper sleep routine in place. When my baby, Francesca, arrived there was no sleep in our house for the first ten months. It was difficult for my partner and we were at our wits' end trying to figure out how we could get a baby to sleep for at least a few hours during the night rather than 45 minutes at a time. The first ten months were very stressful and as my partner prepared to go back to work the stress became greater because our little baby had no sleep routine.

Through parents' forums we discovered a sleep trainer who ultimately used her experience to give us back our lives. The sleep trainer stayed in our house for a weekend to observe our baby's sleeping patterns and then provided a solution to the problem. This, along with follow-up calls from the sleep trainer, meant that within a very short period our baby was sleeping like a baby. It was incredible; my partner and I got our lives back and the baby, Francesca, was sleeping right through the night.

When I first heard of sleep trainers, I thought it was something that one would have in California and that we must get it and and at one stage I laughed at the fact that we had a sleep trainer coming to our house. It was probably the best money we ever spent and, more important, our baby is sleeping at night. Although worth every penny, this private service did not come cheap. However, the HSE should consider rolling it out nationwide, in particular for first-time parents who are struggling with their baby's sleep patterns. There may be an opportunity for a call centre and much has been done in the area through on-screen media. Some counties may have the service in place to some extent with the support of the HSE but I would like it to be extended or explored further. There are huge pressures on the health system but I never thought I would have been in such a situation where a simple answer provided an effective solution to a huge problem. I thank the Minister of State for his interest.

I thank the Senator for raising the issue. Anybody who has been through that journey of sleepless nights, as, no doubt, the Cathaoirleach is aware, will empathise with the issue the Senator raised. Having raised six babies in my own house, I know I do. Nobody who has gone through those sleepless nights would think it a waste of time for the Senator to raise the issue in the House. Raising awareness of the issue is one thing but raising awareness of the solution is even more important. I had never heard of a sleep trainer until I was made aware of the Senator's Commencement matter. It is probably too late for me but there are many others who would like to know of that. I congratulate the Senator on raising the issue and highlighting a solution. I welcome the opportunity to address the House on the matter.

Healthy Ireland is the blueprint for how we will promote, protect and improve the health and well-being of people living in Ireland. One of the main aims of the healthy Ireland framework is to support parents in improving health and well-being outcomes for their children. This is also a key objective of the national child policy framework Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures. Approximately 68,000 babies are born in the State every year. Children, that is, those under 18 years of age, account for 25% of the Irish population, which means we have the youngest population in the EU. The Health Service Executive, through the delivery of the national healthy childhood programme, has a key role in supporting families in order that babies can fully realise good health and well-being outcomes. As part of this, the nurture programme for infant health and well-being is being led, co-ordinated and delivered by the HSE's national primary care and national health and well-being divisions. It is a three-year programme, supported by a grant from Atlantic Philanthropies to the HSE, which is designed to improve the information and professional supports provided to parents during pregnancy and the first three years of their baby’s life. It includes antenatal education, maternity and infant care, the transition to home and a schedule of child health reviews, vaccinations and screening visits. These are provided as part of the child health programme and delivered by public health nurses, practice nurses, community medical officers and general practitioners.

The subject of sleep difficulties for babies and young children is recognised as a challenge for many parents. It is being addressed as part of the nurture programme. Research with parents on information needs and concerns has identified sleep as an area of specific interest along with issues such as nutrition, general development, screen time and early language. Current evidence indicates that management of sleep and other issues cannot be addressed in isolation and are most appropriately supported in the context of positive infant mental health and parent-child relationships. The outputs of the nurture programme will include management of sleep in the parent materials and resources in development, including a new evidence-based HSE child health website for parents and carers of infants and children, updated books on caring for one's baby and child and a healthy pregnancy book. In addition to parent resources, the programme will also include sleep as a subject in the overall child health training programme being developed for practitioners.

I welcome the new evidence-based HSE child health website for parents and carers of infants and children. It is very important. Many of the consultations were done on Skype and that could be further considered. Simple things such as blackout blinds, a routine and diet are effective but we are trying to highlight the problem because most parents are so busy they do not realise there is some small issue that may be of assistance, nor that there is a lot of help available. I only realised the extent of the issue when I raised it three weeks ago on the Order of Business and many fellow Senators and even the Cathaoirleach asked for the phone number of the sleep trainer. I then realised this is a problem across the country and we should articulate, highlight and advertise that there is help and advice available. My baby, her mother and I are now sleeping much better at night.

I thank the Senator. My concern is now more as a grandparent than a parent. My children are old enough to do their own sleeping. It is an interesting topic and I wish the Senator well.

Ambulance Service Response Times

I thank the Minister of State for his attendance in respect of an issue I have raised several times in the Chamber regarding the ambulance service in County Roscommon and, in particular, its response times. There have been a number of reports on the issue, such as a HIQA report in 2014 and the Lightfoot report in 2016. Both are very stark in their findings and provide us with evidence that action is required to ensure we have increased resources in the form of increased ambulances and personnel to deliver better response times for those in our region. People there are currently at an increased risk because they are living in an identified blackspot area and are exposed to an increased risk of delayed intervention. All Members know that being able to access a medical centre that can intervene at the earliest possible time will have a positive impact on recovery. All Members know of the FAST campaign highlighting the need for quick action for stroke victims and that being able to get to a centre that can intervene as quickly as possible has a major impact in terms of intervention and recovery. A hugely positive impact for sufferers of thrombolysis across the country is getting people to centres where they need to as quickly as possible.

Residents of west Roscommon and east Mayo have to wait the longest time in the country for an ambulance to arrive. Although there is an ambulance base at Loughglynn, County Roscommon, it is currently being operated by a crew from Roscommon town. I have raised this numerous times and it is not acceptable. We need a functioning Loughgynn ambulance base serviced by a Loughglynn ambulance crew. It is not acceptable that a borrowed ambulance from Roscommon town is catering for the needs of our region. We do not want special treatment but we want fair treatment and we deserve better. It is not acceptable that no extra resources have been given for this area.

From the outside, it appears we are building hubs and a health service for an urban centre. Medical treatments and interventions have become more specialised and centralised, which undoubtedly has resulted in positive outcomes according to the evidence and research. As part of that movement, we must ensure that we are able to get those of our people who live in rural areas to those centres quickly. It is currently very difficult in certain rural areas and I point in particular to west Roscommon and east Mayo. We have also seen the hugely positive impact of the air ambulance service and its ability to improve response times, in particular for critically ill patients. As such, it is essential to ensure that service is operational at night.

I have two questions. First, when will we see increased resources for the identified black spot of west Roscommon? Second, when will we see the air ambulance service operating at night? What is happening? The programme for partnership Government indicates that additional resources will be provided for the national ambulance service. When will they be provided in identified black spot areas? A feasibility study was to be carried out in respect of operating the air ambulance service at night. What is happening within the HSE to progress that and when will it be operational at night?

The programme for partnership Government committed to a feasibility study on the expansion of the emergency aeromedical service, EAS. In addition, the programme committed to delivering safer pre-hospital care by considering the recommendations of three reviews of ambulance services, namely, the HIQA governance review, the national ambulance capacity review and the review of Dublin ambulance services. The programme further committed to providing additional annual investment in ambulance personnel and vehicles.

The capacity review, which was published last year, examined overall ambulance resource levels and distribution against demand and activity. Implementation of the recommendations of the capacity review will require a multi-annual programme of phased investment in ambulance manpower, vehicles and technology. To that end, €7.2 million in additional funding was provided in 2016 for the national ambulance service, NAS, including €2 million in development funding. In 2017, an additional sum of €3.6 million was made available, which included €1 million to fund new developments. I confirm that additional funding will be made available for the continued development of the NAS in 2018. This will be set out in the national service plan for 2018, which the Senator will be aware is being prepared as we speak.

With regard to pre-hospital emergency care in Roscommon, the NAS operates from Roscommon town, Boyle and Loughglynn. The Senator may wish to note that in order to further develop services in Roscommon, the NAS acquired the former Garda station at Loughglynn. Following refurbishment, it opened in 2016 as a dispatch point. This facilitates better utilisation of resources and provides greater geographical ambulance cover for the north Roscommon area. The NAS dynamically deploys resources to respond to incidents as they arise. This is achieved in the Roscommon area by dispatching resources from adjacent ambulance stations in neighbouring counties. Thus, resources from ambulance stations in Carrick-on-Shannon, Tuam, Longford and Athlone can be deployed to incidents in Roscommon as required.

Members will be aware that the EAS was established to provide a more timely response to persons in rural areas. The service is operated by the national ambulance service in association with the Air Corps. The service is available seven days a week in daylight hours and is specifically targeted at the west of Ireland. The highest demand for the EAS comes from counties Galway, Mayo and Roscommon. My Department and the national ambulance service are exploring the feasibility of extending the very successful EAS through the establishment of a community-based helicopter emergency medical service in the south. Discussions in this regard are ongoing. The capacity review identified particular difficulties serving rural areas such as County Roscommon. Outside the greater Dublin area, the population is widely dispersed with a relatively large population living in rural areas. On foot of this population distribution, Ireland has a far higher percentage of activity in rural areas than other ambulance services. The review indicated that the only practical way to improve first-response times in rural areas is through voluntary community first responder, CFR, schemes. The NAS continues to work with local CFR groups across the country to develop and enhance services.

We are up against the clock. I ask Senator Hopkins to be very brief.

I will make three very short points. In 2017, €1 million in additional resources have been made available. Surely, those resources should be directed towards identified, evidence-based black spots. The Minister of State referred to the Loughglynn ambulance base. To be honest, the response is not at all satisfactory. The Minister of State said this facilitates better utilisation of resources. This is otherwise known as a "borrowed ambulance", which moves between Roscommon town and Loughglynn. It is not acceptable. We need additional resources. While the Garda station was acquired for refurbishment, a refurbished Garda station does not deliver an ambulance service. We need ambulances and personnel.

The Minister of State said discussions on the air ambulance service were ongoing. I am looking for specifics. Has the feasibility study started? When will it finish? We need to see the air ambulance service, which has been hugely positive and beneficial in getting critically ill patients to the centres they need to be in, operating at night. Can the three specific questions be answered, perhaps outside of this Commencement debate?

I am not sure if the Minister of State can add anything. He has given a comprehensive answer. The Senator might take the matter up directly with the Minister of State in her own time. In fairness, both Commencement matters thus far were supposed to be in last week but were not taken as a Minister was not available. As such, the two slots lapsed. We must find a way to improve our logistics. I thank the Senator. It is a very important issue for her and I am sure the Minister of State will talk to her about it. Senator Pádraig Mac Lochlainn has four minutes for his matter.

Flood Damage

First, I acknowledge the apologies I have received from the Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Ring. I have spoken to one of his departmental officials this morning and have been in contact with his private secretary. I have requested a meeting with the Minister and am happy for the Chief Whip, Deputy McHugh, who is also a Deputy for Donegal, to be present at that meeting because this is now an urgent matter which requires urgent attention from the Government.

I will paint the picture for the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly. Buncrana is a town of significant size but can he imagine any town in Ireland in which the main park, which is beloved by and rooted in the community, where families and the elderly go walking and where partnerships with schools, environmental groups and Tidy Towns groups are developed based on this amenity, has been utterly destroyed? Just up the road there are major sporting amenities which have been utterly destroyed, including the destruction of a number of pitches at Cockhill Celtic. It is two months since the flooding but I have had to raise the matter in the Seanad again and again to get someone in government to grapple with the issue. That is how serious it is. The major park and sporting amenities have been destroyed in one community while nothing is being done about it by central government. That is why I am going to keep raising this every week, with the permission of the Cathaoirleach, until I get someone to grasp how serious the issue is and to grapple with it.

A second issue is Glenevin Waterfall in Clonmany, a beautiful amenity which was developed by the local people and includes a riverside walk up to a wonderful waterfall. It is part of the tourism offering in Inishowen and is beloved by the local community. While they have worked to put it back in place, they need help and funding. I acknowledge that the Government has stepped up with some of the relief schemes. I acknowledge that Ministers came to Donegal very quickly when this crisis happened. However, there is a sense that two months later, with the cameras moving on, major gaps exist which are not being addressed.

Swan Park in Buncrana, Glenevin Waterfall in Clonmany and Cockhill Celtic Football Club are massive issues. I am not taking a parish-pump approach to it. I am being realistic when I point out that there is no other community in Ireland that would be abandoned in the way we have been in respect of our major amenities. I ask the Government to understand that. I ask the Minister, Deputy Ring, to meet me as soon as possible, address the issue and provide once-off emergency funding to get these amenities up and running again.

That is my appeal to the Minister of State. I have passed this message to the Minister, Deputy Ring, through his parliamentary assistant, private secretary and departmental officials. I hope to get a face-to-face meeting as soon as possible.

I acknowledge the presence in the Gallery of Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe and his friend. It is always nice to see Members of the Lower House coming here to pay homage to this great Chamber.

I am responding on behalf of the Minister for Rural and Community Development who cannot be present due to other commitments.

I acknowledge the devastation caused by the floods in County Donegal at the end of August, particularly the damage to Swan Park and Glenevin Waterfall. I understand the Department of Rural and Community Development supported the development of Swan Park in 2015 through the pilot scheme for rural economic development zones. We were all shocked at the extent of the damage to roads, bridges and property caused by the flooding in County Donegal in such a short period. In response to these events, the Government immediately activated its humanitarian assistance scheme to assist people whose homes were damaged by flooding and who were not in a position to meet the costs relating to essential needs, household items and, in some instances, structural repairs. I understand that temporary emergency support was provided for small businesses, community groups and sports clubs. The Senator has acknowledged the Government's response in these areas. I appreciate his concern about the amenities at Swan Park and Glenevin Waterfall.

I am advised that, unfortunately, the Department of Rural and Community Development schemes which might have been of relevance closed for applications earlier in the year. The closing date for county-based initiatives under the outdoor recreational infrastructure scheme was the end of May and applications under the town and village renewal scheme closed at the end of June. Funding for 2017 under these schemes has been committed at this stage. The Minister previously suggested in response to a parliamentary question that the Leader local action group in County Donegal could engage with the local community with a view to identifying whether Leader support could assist these projects. Senator Mac Lochlainn has said he is not satisfied that Leader support is sufficient. I suggest that if funding were available under Leader, it might help to leverage other sources of funding from the private or public sectors. The approval of projects under the Leader programme is ultimately a matter for local action groups. I encourage a further exploration with the local action group in County Donegal regarding the options available to support the repair of the amenities at Swan Park and Glenevin Waterfall.

I think Senator Mac Lochlainn's suggestion that he and the Minister of State, Deputy McHugh, might meet the Minister could be facilitated soon. That might lead to progress in this regard. The Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, does not have responsibility for this issue. Ministers of State sometimes have to fulfil certain duties when Ministers are unavailable. Perhaps the Senator's proposal could be worked on expeditiously. That might be a better way to proceed. If not, the Senator can certainly raise the matter here again.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I appreciate his guidance on this matter. I ask the Minister of State to relay to the Minister the request I have made in support of the issue I have raised. There is frustration because the unprecedented levels of water that accompanied this remarkable act of God destroyed the amenities I have mentioned. On that basis, we are asking the Government to intervene. This should not be treated as a regular application for funding. The extraordinary events of last August require an extraordinary response. Unfortunately, there are serious problems with the bureaucratic procedures involved in making applications for Leader funding. In places like County Donegal, there are huge demands for the limited funds that are available. The Leader programme is really not the way to address this issue. In advance of the meeting I hope to have with the Minister as soon as possible, I emphasise to the departmental officials who are listening to this debate that we need an exceptional and extraordinary response. This beautiful park, which is a key amenity, has been destroyed. This beloved facility was developed over decades by the local community. I cannot overstate the wonder and beauty of the amenities that have been destroyed. In the case of Glenevin Waterfall, which is wonderful and beautiful, it is possible that Leader funding could make a limited contribution. Urgent Government intervention is needed. I do not know of anywhere else in Ireland where this would be allowed to continue without an intervention taking place. I thank the Cathaoirleach again for his assistance and support. I hope we can get a resolution soon.

As natives of west Cork, the Cathaoirleach and I are no strangers to the devastation caused by flooding. We understand the Senator's plight. Following Storm Ophelia last month, the people in coastal areas of west Cork can probably, as much as anyone else, empathise with the people of County Donegal. I will pass the Senator's sentiments to the Minister. Maybe it would be helpful to put a costing on the repairs that are required. I know the Senator is engaging with Donegal County Council. If he continues to work with the council to try to get an exact and precise cost for the repairs that are required, it will help in the process of getting funding for the project and ensure we are not talking in terms of unknown figures and facts.

School Accommodation

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, an Teachta O'Donovan.

The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, and I usually talk about finance matters. This morning he is covering for the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton, in respect of a matter of concern to people who live close to me. I know the Minister of State is somewhat aware of the situation, which has been going on for some time. I will elaborate on some of the facts before giving the Minister a chance to come back in.

Ballinteer Educate Together national school opened in temporary accommodation in 2012 using classrooms borrowed from St. Tiernan's secondary school in the general catchment of Ballinteer and a number of half-sized prefabricated units while it waited for the design and approval process for the new school building to be completed. In September of this year, it moved to temporary accommodation at Notre Dame secondary school in Churchtown. While this is not a huge distance away in the context of the distances many Senators have to contend with, it is a considerable distance for national school parents who are used to bringing their children to a particular facility. Some 280 students from Ballinteer Educate Together national school will share buildings at Notre Dame secondary school with two other schools for at least another two years.

Five years on from the opening of this school, no timeline has been given for when it will return to its own permanent site adjacent to St. Tiernan's secondary school. Some parents have experienced severe hardship as they have tried to facilitate the new arrangements at Notre Dame secondary school. The lack of communication over the status of a new school building has contributed to this uncertainty. Rather than being told anything officially, the parents involved have been getting news through word of mouth or on social media. It is very unsatisfactory. It is shameful that parents and staff first heard of the decision to move to Notre Dame secondary school through Twitter. The issues that have created this situation do not appear to be budgetary and are not related to the planning of the building itself. They seem to centre on the securing of planning permission for road access to the new site. The initial application was submitted in 2012. Today, we are no closer to any kind of decision that will help to get the new school built.

Like the board and the parent-teacher association, I appreciate that these processes take time. However, the continued absence of a solution to this problem has resulted in an unacceptable delay which is now beginning to have an adverse impact on the school's staff, pupils and parents. As the school continues to grow rapidly, these effects will become more serious. It is a matter of time before the children's educational experience begins to suffer. I remain perplexed and surprised by the delays in the tricky negotiations involving external parties about access to the St. Tiernan's site. I have been informed by the parent-teacher association that the Department intervened with a compulsory purchase order to make progress with a building at Gaelscoil Chnoc Liamhna in Knocklyon. I wonder what legal impediments could be preventing a similar approach from being taken in this case. Perhaps it is not possible. We should investigate whether it is and let people know one way or the other. I ask the Minister of State to convey this suggestion to the Minister for Education and Skills.

I would be grateful if the Minister of State could give me an update on how matters stand with the construction process. It is not fair on the children and the parents to be treated in this way. I have received a number of emails from the secretary of the parent-teacher association at Ballinteer Educate Together national school. They confirm that the position is exactly as I have outlined. They acknowledge that the children are happy in the transitional home to which their school has moved, even if it is further away from where they live. We are all trying to get people to use sustainable travel and to work or cycle to school. The site to which the school has moved is not half as convenient for most pupils as the school's long-term home adjacent to St. Tiernan's secondary school. A stopgap solution has been found. The Department might not consider south Dublin to be growing as quickly as other parts of the country, such as the commuter belt, but it has experienced a huge increase in population, and in population density, as a result of the construction of apartments and other housing units in places like Dundrum, Sandyford, Stillorgan and Ballinteer.

That is putting pressure on all the schools in the area.

I ask the Minister of State to convey to the Minister that there is a palpable sense of frustration. The final sentence in that email I received is to the effect that it is unfortunate they have had to reach out to me again but they require actors on their behalf to help build their national school. They have requested if I can ask the Minister, yet again, to make further inquiries on their behalf regarding the progress on building a permanent home for Ballinteer Educate Together national school. I have outlined their case. I believe the Minister is aware of the situation. I emphasise that progress on this matter is needed sooner rather than later.

I apologise on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Bruton, who is unable to be here. On his behalf, I thank the Senator for raising this matter.

The Ballinteer Education Together national school was successfully relocated to the Notre Dame campus on Upper Churchtown Road in Dublin 14 pending delivery of the permanent accommodation at the St. Tiernan's community school site in Balally, to which the Senator referred. On behalf of the Minister, I extend my thanks to all concerned for their work and efforts over the summer months in facilitating that logistical move. The accommodation provided for the school at the Notre Dame campus since September comprises 11 classrooms. It also includes ancillary accommodation. Provisional enrolment data indicate an increase of 40 pupils from a total of 234 pupils in September 2016 to 274 in September 2017, meaning that an additional two mainstream teachers were required.

Regarding progress on the permanent school accommodation, as has been stated previously, access to the permanent site is a complex planning issue. Since June, the Department has met a third-party landowner on a number of occasions with a view to negotiating an acceptable solution to the access issue. As these are commercially sensitive negotiations, it is not possible to comment further at this stage. All aspects are being progressed in close liaison with the local authority in order to ensure that a further planning application has the best likelihood of success. The Department is fully committed to bringing this project to a satisfactory conclusion as soon as issues relating to the planning process have been resolved.

The Senator asked if I would give him an assurance that I will bring the issues he raised today to the Minister's attention. I give him that assurance now.

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I appreciate that the negotiations involved are commercially sensitive. I emphasise that school authority is aware of the compulsory purchase order, CPO, relating to Knocklyon. I will not ask the Minister of State to further outline those details that are commercially sensitive but I stress the urgent need to proceed with the project as soon as possible.

To provide further detail on the issues involved, as referred to by the Senator, the only access route into the property - to which the local authority has indicated agreement - involves acquiring additional parcels of adjacent land from two different third parties. It would also involve putting in place a roadway that will need to traverse a protected structure adjoining the site. A conservation architect was engaged to examine how this might be done to the satisfaction of the council without substantially materially impinging on the protected structure. The architect's report was submitted to the Department and was discussed with the council and the third party on whose land the protected structure stands and from whom the land for the road will also have to be acquired. This is a very complicated planning issue. Planning permission for the new building for Ballinteer Educate Together national school and a physical education, PE, hall for St. Tiernan's has been sought and rejected twice by An Bord Pleanála on foot of objections from the council concerning access. An Bord Pleanála asked that the Department and the council work through the issues to arrive at a mutually agreed solution in respect of the issue of site access.

The Minister has said it is imperative that all of the work is done to the satisfaction of the council in order to ensure that a further planning application has the best likelihood of success. If we rush into a planning application at this point without going through the process diligently and carefully, we could set the planning permission process back more substantially in the long term and, as a result, jeopardise delivery of the new school once again. The land adjacent to the school site is in the ownership of a third party and negotiations and agreement - of which the Senator will be aware and which I am sure he will respect - in the context of access are required before a planning application that is likely to be successful can be framed. These negotiations are ongoing. However, as they are commercially sensitive in nature - I am sure everybody will accept that this is only fair - it is not possible to comment further at this stage.

I would appreciate if the Minister of State could provide that further detail to me.

I am sure he will do that. I hope this Commencement matter will advance the Senator's cause. I thank the Minister of State for his input.

Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.
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