Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Sep 2018

Vol. 260 No. 5

Commencement Matters

Gambling Legislation

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, and thank him for being here. The issue of loot boxes and gambling has grown into national and international prominence in recent months. Loot boxes could pose gambling risks for children and at-risk adults. They represent an area of huge and growing concern for parents and people prone to gambling addiction. I have raised the matter in the House on a number of occasions and have also raised it in light of the Irish representatives signing a declaration at the 2018 meeting of the Gaming Regulators European Forum, in which the Minister for Justice and Equality's Department was involved. It is important to acknowledge that this matter is on the Minister of State's radar.

Loot boxes are a consumable virtual item which can be redeemed to receive a randomised selection of in-game items ranging from customisation options for a character to game changing equipment such as weapons and armour to increases in in-game currency received. I must admit that the matter is one with which I am not 100% familiar. I am very fortunate that I have a very good friend who advises me on many ongoing developments in this area, Mr. Eoin Barry from Cork. Both of us have been in discussion with representatives from the gaming industry and the Interactive Software Federation of Europe, ISFE, for a period of time. I acknowledge that we have met Mr. David Sweeney. The declaration which emerged from the European forum stated: "Our authorities are committed to the objectives of their public policies with regard to consumer protection, prevention of problem gambling and ensuring the safety of underage persons."

Cork has been become pronounced as a city associated with gaming and it is fair to say computer gaming is a hobby enjoyed by millions of people around the world and that e-sports have become a global phenomenon in recent years. Unfortunately, there are concerns regarding the potential exposure to addictive behaviour such as gambling. That is where loot boxes have crept into the gaming scene and have become a topical issue not only for gamers, but for parents and governments around the world. We are not trying to change the experience of those who are committed to, and who participate in, gaming in any way. We are, however, trying to look at the aspects relating to addiction, gambling and compulsion, which is what loot boxes play into. There was an example in Cork when the story emerged of a young boy who spent a month of his mother's wages on FIFA 18.

This gaming uses a loot box system whereby players are distributed randomly from packs. Even videos of people unboxing loot boxes are a genuine phenomenon. The important thing is that loot boxes can be compared to traditional gaming in a number of ways. First, the win state of a loot box is a gamble. Second, in the loot box models there is a way to force a win state. The important point is that there have been changes internationally that have emanated from various countries. For example, the Belgian Gaming Commission deemed in May 2018 that many forms of loot boxes constitute gambling and recommended prosecutions against companies which did not desist in their sale. Electronic Arts, which has a studio in Galway, has a different viewpoint from Belgium's interpretation and has chosen not to remove them from games sold on the Belgian market. A couple of cases are taking place this month.

My time is nearly up. I thank the Minister of State for being here. I know that he has been very proactive on the issue of gambling, including online gambling, and this particular matter. This is a conversation we are starting to have in this country. I thank the Cathaoirleach for selecting the matter for discussion. I again thank Mr. Barry for advising me and his work with me.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality (Deputy David Stanton)

I thank the Senator for raising this issue and his continued interest in this whole area. The issue of loot boxes and online video games has received significant media attention in recent days. There are three elements to this matter which I wish to highlight. First, Ireland was happy to join in the declaration from the Gaming Regulators European Forum, GREF, on the undesirability of games, particularly those with huge popularity, crossing the line into offering services that might normally be described as gambling. GREF is a voluntary association of European gambling regulatory authorities in which Ireland participates. Second, while the declaration does not have legal effect, it reflects concern among national authorities that online gaming products should be appropriately licensed if they offer gambling possibilities. A key purpose of the declaration is to alert parents to potential issues arising from in-game purchases. Parents have primary responsibility to protect their children in this regard. Third, where a game offers the possibility of placing a bet or taking risk for financial reward within the game, it must, in my view, be licensed as a gambling product. To offer gambling products in Ireland, a licence is required under the Betting Acts 1931 to 2015 or the Gaming and Lotteries Act 1956.

The Revenue Commissioners are the primary responsible licensing authority under both Acts, with some involvement of the Minister for Justice and Equality. However, it should be understood that if a game offers in-game purchases - be they loot boxes, skins, etc. - which are promoted to gamers as increasing their chances of success, such purchases are essentially a commercial or e-commerce activity. This activity would fall within normal consumer law. If there is dissatisfaction with the purchase or how it is promoted, objections should be directed to the appropriate authority. My Department has no role either in the regulation of game developers as to how their games work or in the offering of in-game purchases.

Work is ongoing on modernising aspects of gambling law. The Government has approved a number of my proposals to update and modernise the 2013 general scheme of a gambling control Bill. These included the establishment of an independent regulatory authority for the gambling industry to conduct the complex range of licensing, regulating, monitoring, inspecting and enforcement tasks required for the industry. An interdepartmental working group on gambling has completed its review of the 2013 general scheme of a gambling control Bill and is preparing its report for submission to Government very shortly, in autumn 2018.

What the Senator has highlighted is the complexity of this area and how quickly it is developing and changing. I reiterate to parents my call for them to become more aware of what is going on with these loot boxes and online video games. The issue of addiction is a matter for the Minister for Health, as are all other addictions.

Acting Chairman (Senator John O'Mahony)

Does Senator Buttimer wish to ask a brief supplementary question?

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Yes, I will be very brief.

I thank the Minister of State for his reply and welcome both the ongoing review and the legislative modernisation of the general scheme of the gambling control Bill that is under way. The debate this morning is welcome and necessary. It is a conversation that is happening internationally and nationally and it is an important debate. We have, as the Minister of State said, complex regulation that we need to update for loot boxes. Part of the debate is about digital safety and whether loot boxes enable gambling. This is a global conversation of which we are a part, and I believe we need to provide learning benefit and tackle the negative impact and effects of unsupervised access to technology. I thank the Minister of State. We will have a further conversation on the matter and I hope that as part of it we can reach out to those in the know. I again thank people like Mr. Barry who brought the issue to my attention.

Acting Chairman (Senator John O'Mahony)

Does the Minister of State wish to respond briefly?

Deputy David Stanton

I thank Senator Buttimer for his further comments on this matter and his interest and support. I have endeavoured to separate the various elements involved. The declaration referred to is intended to let the gaming industry know that where their games involve in-game purchases, which are offers to gamble, these games would fall to be regulated under gambling legislation. Many other states share our concern in that regard. Where the games do not involve invitations to bet, they fall under the appropriate legislation dealing with the sale and-or distribution of video games. This is the Video Recordings Act 1989, under which video games are exempted works for classification purposes unless they fall within the terms provided for in section 3(1)(a) or (b), which cover the grounds for their prohibition. Ireland is part of the Pan European Game Information system, which is a Europe-wide voluntary rating system for video games.

Debate on this issue has highlighted the need to progress the modernisation of the gambling laws to ensure there is clarity and protection for all those who use gambling services. A significant amount of work has been undertaken, as I said, within government to develop revised proposals to better reflect the required extent of the State's engagement with a modern Irish gambling environment. I am a little frustrated that we have not progressed the matter further than we have done, but it is very complex - far more complex than many of us had realised. We are working as hard as we can to bring forward this modernisation.

Medicinal Products Availability

Acting Chairman (Senator John O'Mahony)

The Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Catherine Byrne, is welcome.

Senator Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank the Minister of State for being here. I very much appreciate it and know that she will feel strongly about the issue I am about to raise. I also appreciate that her Department is working as best it can to find a resolution to the issues I raise. I welcome in the Gallery Ms Fiona Bailey, the mother of Sam Bailey. I met the family of Grace O'Malley from Mayo last week.

Last week there was a demonstration outside Leinster House, of which I think the Minister of State was aware, about the 25 children in this country who suffer from spinal muscular atrophy type 2. It called on the Government to speed up the process of making the wonder drug, as it is called, Spinraza available to these children. It is a vitally important intervention that these children greatly need. What the families are asking for is the exact timeline for negotiation between the HSE and Biogen, the manufacturer of this drug. The Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris, who I know is engaged in this issue and seeks a resolution of it, tweeted last week to one of the parents involved in this campaign that the issue is currently with the HSE, that there needs to be engagement between the HSE and the company, that he will make sure it happens and that he knows how important it is to families.

What the families are really asking for is clarification as to where the process is. It is understood that Biogen made an offer on 29 July and that a high-level meeting on the issue may be held in the Department tomorrow. Spinal muscular atrophy type 2 is a particularly difficult condition with which to live. The families are doing their absolute best and they appreciate that there are people working in the Department who are doing their best to ensure we can come to a resolution of this issue. I know from my time as a Minister of State in that Department and from working in these Houses that no one in politics tries to be a blocker or to increase the suffering of children. The 25 children are doing well but, having spoken to their families last week and again this morning, I understand they fear facing into winter, even at this time of year. The impact winter could have on children with this condition is frightening.

This drug could make all the difference. It is freely available in 20 countries in Europe, but for some reason, two do not have it, one of which, unfortunately, is Ireland. We know the process and campaign the Government went through to find a solution for children with cystic fibrosis in the case of Orkambi. It was much appreciated. I think it is within the Minister of State's capacity to give the families affected by this condition some hope. They want clarification of where the Government is in negotiations with the company. Can we hope and expect Spinraza to be freely available for the children in question in that they can look forward to having more complete lives and fulfilling their potential?

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris, I thank the Senator for raising this matter.

Medicines play a vital role in improving the overall health of Irish patients. Ensuring access to new and innovative medicines in a timely manner is a key objective of the health service. The challenge is to deliver on the objective in an affordable and sustainable way. However, new medicines are often very expensive. There is a large number of applications in the reimbursement process which, if all approved, would have a significant impact on an already overstretched health budget.

Spinraza is indicated for the treatment of 5q spinal muscular atrophy, SMA, a disorder characterised by progressive muscle atrophy and weakness. The Minister understands access to potentially beneficial drug treatments is an important issue for all people with serious illnesses and fully appreciates that SMA sufferers and their families face enormous day-to-day challenges in dealing with this progressive and debilitating condition. The Oireachtas has put in place a robust legal framework in the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013 which gives full statutory powers to the HSE to assess and make decisions on the reimbursement of medicines, taking account of a range of objective factors and expert opinion, as appropriate. The Act specifies the criteria to be applied in making reimbursement decisions, which include the clinical and cost effectiveness of the product, the opportunity cost and the impact on resources available to the HSE. In reaching its decision the HSE will examine all of the relevant evidence and take into account such expert opinions and recommendations as are appropriate, including from the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics, NCPE. This ensures reimbursement decisions are made on objective, scientific and economic grounds. The NCPE is a team of clinicians, pharmacists, pharmacologists and statisticians who evaluate the clinical benefits and costs of medical technologies and provide advice for the HSE. NCPE reports are important inputs to assist the HSE in its decision-making process. The HSE received an application for the reimbursement of the drug in question in July 2017 and referred it to the NCPE for advice. The NCPE conducted a health technology assessment of Spinraza and did not recommend reimbursement at the price sought by the applicants.

I make it clear that the HSE has yet to make a final decision on the pricing and reimbursement application submitted by Biogen for the reimbursement of Spinraza and that the statutory process is ongoing. The HSE is the decision-making body for the reimbursement of medicines under the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013 and will make the final decision on whether Spinraza will be reimbursed, taking into consideration the statutory criteria as specified in the 2013 Act.

Senator Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I appreciate the answer and the fact that the Minister of State has outlined the process involved, but what the families really need to know is when it will happen. I know that the Minister of State may not be in a position to give me that answer now, but I ask her to impress on the Minister the importance of this matter. I understand the HSE has yet to make the final decision, but I think the Minister of State appreciate that the families listening to this debate, including a mother who is in the Visitors Gallery, want to know when it will be made. Will the Minister of State impress on the Minister the importance of the matter? Is he in a position to meet representatives of the families? Will he give an assurance, as he did, in fairness, through social media last week, that he cares passionately about it? Will the Minister of State ask him for clarity on the timeline involved? That is what the families really want. While they appreciate that negotiations are ongoing, that there is a cost issue and that these matters are technical and complicated, the issue is of critical importance to the children. Will the Minister of State impress on the Minister the importance of meeting the families to outline the timeline involved? We cannot live off an answer that a final decision has yet to be made, with no sense as to when it will be made. As a compassionate politician, the Minister of State will appreciate this. I ask for clarity on the issue. I know that the Minister will listen to the Minister of State and wants to engage with the families to bring the matter to a successful conclusion.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I say to the Senator and the parents that I do not believe any of us in this Chamber or elsewhere wants to see seriously ill children suffer. The Minister is true to his word. He has said he will fix this problem and I believe that will happen. The timeframe is crucial for everybody present. I did not know about the meeting with the Minister. I will inform him that the Senator has raised the issue. Sometimes the cost of a drug should not be an issue when it comes to life-changing medicines for children. I adhere to all of what the Senator has said. I will convey what he said in his contribution to the Minister this afternoon.

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services Provision

Senator Máire Devine

I welcome the Minister of State. This issue relates to the Cherry Orchard campus in Dublin 10. My last Commencement matter on it was in July and dealt with by the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly. It was tabled in response to desperation and queries from patients - children - their families, the staff and others at the coalface with experience of how day services were being shut down. On 11 June the consultant was told by the director of services of concerns about staffing in child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, to cater for the Linn Dara day programme. The problem arose because a supporting CAMHS service in Clondalkin was in dire straits. The consultant was willing to support the service in Clondalkin and, with staff, formulated a solution to help with capacity in Clondalkin. Staff travelled to Clondalkin in the morning and returned to Linn Dara in the afternoon to carry out assessments, attend appointments and provide therapies included in the diary to provide long-awaited services for adolescents and children. Nothing else happened between 11 and 27 June.

On 27 June an email was circulated by senior management advising of the closure of the day hospital programme on 6 July. The senior manager went on to say families should not be informed directly about the closure and that appointments should continue to be made for children who had been on the waiting lists for a long time. The order not to inform families was the entire concern of management at the time. It refused to communicate directly with families and stated it would not issue letters to cancel appointments because it did not want them to end up on the Joe Duffy radio show. The closure was kept quiet and low key. I urged the Committee on the Future of Mental Health Care to visit the campus in July prior to the recess and the House recommencing last week, but the issue remains unresolved.

As the Minister of State is aware, I spent more than 30 years as a psychiatric nurse. From a service provision perspective, I know only too well the deficits and the impact on children and families. I want to talk to the Minister. I spoke to one of the mothers, whose story exemplifies the failings of CAMHS.

Her child has been on the waiting list since May. He was waiting for a particular psychologist, to whom he was allocated, but the psychologist has since moved out of the area, leaving the Cherry Orchard campus one psychologist post short. I am sure the Minister of State is aware and I am sure she also gets this all the time. I have been inundated with requests for help from parents of young children in dire need of the mental health services. This child's waiting list has been frozen and the parents were told that, realistically, it would be at least another six months before a replacement psychologist was hired. This child is just one of many children who are in distress. It is unacceptable. The child is ten years old, is isolated and has major socialisation issues. He is boiling with frustration that is destructively displayed at home. I am aware of parents who care for and are concerned about their children and family members and are trying to keep them safe being advised to call the Garda to deal with children as young as five years of age. Some have done so. I ask the Minister of State to outline how the position at Cherry Orchard campus will be improved. Will she provide concrete, tangible plans for day services and fast-tracking recruitment to the vacant psychology post?

Deputy Catherine Byrne

As Senator Devine's colleague in the same constituency, I am all too familiar with the issues she raises. The work done by staff in the child and adolescent mental health services is challenged daily by the shortage of professionals in the service.

On behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, I thank the Senator for raising this matter. It is the policy of the HSE, as reflected in its annual service plan, to provide an age appropriate mental health service for those under the age of 18 years. I reiterate the Government’s commitment, in view of the significant additional funding given over recent years, to the development of all aspects of mental health, including that relating to young people. The Minister of State will continue to make the case for further resources annually, in line with evolving demands and in accordance with A Programme for a Partnership Government commitments.

The HSE's national service plan 2018 also commits to further developing child and adolescent services through CAMHS. This is against a background of demand for CAMHS increasing by 26% between 2012 and 2017. Various initiatives on youth mental health other than the specialist CAMHS are also being progressed. We have 69 CAMHS teams and three paediatric liaison teams supported by 75 CAMHS beds nationally. Further beds are planned to come on stream as quickly as possible. Some 18,500 CAMHS referrals are expected in 2018, with 14,500 young people set to be seen by this specialist service. It should be noted that this figure of 14,500 is up from 8,600 in 2011. On behalf of the Minister of State, I pay tribute to the staff of mental health teams for the work they do daily in dealing with this rapid increase in demand for their services. Cases assessed by professionals as being urgent are seen as a matter of priority.

The Government has funded an extra 130 psychiatric nurse undergraduate places each year to help improve the planning and delivery of services in the next few years. A key difficulty being addressed by the HSE is the issue of staff recruitment and retention, particularly in CAMHS. The recent appointment by the HSE of 114 assistant psychologists and 20 psychologists will help to develop counselling services in primary care. It is anticipated that these posts will deal with the less complex child and adolescent cases, thereby reducing the demand on CAMHS.

In addition, the Minister of State recently approved ten new posts for advance nurse practitioners, ANP, who will be specifically directed to the CAMHS service nationally. These new ANPs will play a key role in delivering better service co-ordination where local service pressures are greatest.

The HSE's Linn Dara CAMHS service covers County Kildare, west Wicklow and south Dublin, reflecting a total population of some 420,000. There are seven multi-disciplinary community CAMHS teams for these areas. The HSE has confirmed that there is a psychologist on each CAMHS team and the current vacancy in psychology, in this instance, is due to a temporary absence and will be filled as soon as possible.

The HSE has a statutory responsibility to ensure that safe, adequate and sufficient services are provided by all areas of CAMHS. The Linn Dara inpatient unit remains fully operational as normal, with 22 beds available as well as functioning community teams. I assure the Senator that the Minister of State will keep the matter under close review and that all efforts will continue to be made by the HSE to address the ongoing needs of Linn Dara to a maximise its services.

Senator Máire Devine

I also pay tribute to the staff working at the coalface. They have the solutions, as was clear in the case of the closure of the day programme at Linn Dara when they were ignored. Around 80% of A Vision for Change has not been implemented. This is especially glaring in the delivery of child and adolescent mental health services. We are spending €300,000 per week or €3.2 million per annum on agency staff in nursing and psychiatry. I acknowledge the extra undergraduate nursing places that have been introduced but, as nurses told me last week, no one with sufficient experience is available to mentor these undergraduates. While we fill the vacancies with graduates, the experienced staff who would normally mentor them have left the health service, leaving young and inexperienced staff running wards and clinics. The 700 vacancies in the service is a matter of concern.

Will the Minister of State revert to me with a timeline and process for filling the vacant psychologist post in the Cherry Orchard service? There are many children on the waiting list who will still be waiting in six months. Let us try to fast-track this. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Future of Mental Health Care would like to know when the day programme will reopen. Perhaps the Minister of State can engage with the HSE on the Cherry Orchard campus.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I thank the Senator and bow to her expertise in this area as I know she spent some working in that area of medicine. I cannot give the Senator answers to her questions but I will follow up with the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, and ask him to revert to her. I am also concerned that there are numerous children who have to wait a long time to access CAMHS. The Minister of State is doing his utmost to recruit people to the service. Unfortunately, some people find this line of work very difficult. As the Senator is aware, mental health issues can be very complex, especially with children. I will speak to the Minister of State about this matter and ask about the day-care services in Cherry Orchard and whether he can provide the timeline the Senator seeks.

Harbour Authorities

Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan)

The next matter is in the name of Senator Victor Boyhan. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy David Stanton, who will speak on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy. Harbours are not the Minister of State's usual brief.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I welcome the Minister of State. I thank the Cathaoirleach for selecting this matter for discussion on the Commencement. I am delighted to see Senator Horkan, a former member of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, in the Chair. I was also a member of the council and was first elected to it in 1999.

More importantly, I served two terms as a director of Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company.

I am conscious that I am in the Houses of the Oireachtas and that I have privilege. I have checked the limitations and possibilities under that privilege and I want to be responsible. It is too easy to come in here and start roaring and shouting without getting very far. I record, however, that I received two days ago from a very large legal firm in Dublin some communication in respect of Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company. I reflected on it, as I do on every item of correspondence crossing my desk, and contacted the firm to say I would facilitate it as best I could.

The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, has responsibility in this area. This is a complicated matter and many people may not quite understand harbours come under the transport portfolio. The Taoiseach was one of the Minister's predecessors and he possesses a lot of knowledge of Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company. It is important to state that because I make a plea today to the Taoiseach, the Minister and the Ministers for Finance and Housing, Planning and Local Government that no order be signed to transfer Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council until they meet all Senators, Deputies and county councillors from the functional area of that local authority and provide an absolute commitment and indemnity to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council's executive and elected members that the local authority will not be saddled with a massive debt. Correspondence I studied late into the night advises me that there is a potential exposure of €43 million which is spread over many areas, including pensions, the deficit and other liabilities. This falls out of part of a due diligence document which I have seen. I am not sure there has been full disclosure in relation to this company. I challenge all of the political masters of the relevant Departments, who I have just named, to plead with the Minister not to keep the pressure on to have this company transferred. It is unfair to place that liability on the local authority.

I single out the Minister, for whom I have a great deal of regard notwithstanding our challenges and difficulties, because he is acutely aware of the issues. He has promoted the idea of spending capital funds from that local authority on Glenalbyn swimming pool, a running track in Marlay Park, arts, culture and sport, a master plan for Marlay Park and the roll-out of phase 2 of the Fernhill Park project. That cannot happen if the local authority's capital funding is to be bled off. I acknowledge that the Minister of State in attendance is not the line manager, but my message is that the Government should not expose the councillors or executive of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to a liability and debt which will ultimately fall on taxpayers. The Minister of State and I know that this is what will happen. There will either be an increase in the local property tax in that local authority area or a clearing out of the capital budget in circumstances where it will be simply impossible to roll out the capital plan. For any Minister to tell me that the local authority has capital or can cash in assets is wrong. It should not have to cash in the assets. It should be given a remuneration package, compensation and an indemnity and it should not be exposed.

I will not be found wanting - from today until the process is closed - in pursuing all of the political people I have mentioned. Common sense must prevail. This should not be inflicted on the local authority. What is the rush? Before I came to the Chamber, I received a call to my office from a member of the Minister's staff to ask if she could be of assistance to me. There is no point coming to me ten minutes before a Commencement matter to offer assistance. Last night, I received another official acting on the Minister's behalf asked for a press statement that I may or may not have issued. I am sorry but I was burning the candle until 1.25 a.m., fielding questions and telephone calls and I was back in here at 7.30 a.m. It is too late. The politicians have left it too late. It is time to row back from exposing this local authority. I appeal to the Taoiseach, who has a great deal of knowledge of this company, to contact the Minister and direct him not to put pressure on or sign off on a transfer until the issues I have raised have been explored in great detail. I thank the Acting Chairman for granting me time and latitude to discuss what is a very important issue.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Senator for raising this issue and I am glad to have the opportunity to provide him with an update on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, and his Minister of State, Deputy John Paul Phelan. The Minister is answering questions in the Dáil at this time and sincerely regrets that he cannot be here.

The national ports policy 2013 provides for the transfer of certain ports to relevant local authorities and sets out the arrangements for giving effect to this aim. In that context, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has sought the agreement of the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government to the proposed dissolution of Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company and the transfer of the company's harbour to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. The Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government has an important prudential role with regard to the financial integrity of all local authorities to ensure their finances remain, as far as is practicable, on a sustainable footing. This is a role that the Department must discharge in the context of significant issues affecting the local government system or individual local authorities. The transfer of a harbour company of significance to a local authority, as in the case of Dún Laoghaire, is a substantial issue, as the Senator has said, and its implications must be fully understood. In particular, it is vital that the relevant local authority is not unduly encumbered or exposed to risk by the effective transfer of a commercial body to its control. This principle has been well established in respect of previous port transfers. The Department must, of course, give effect to the Government's policy on ports of regional significance and bring the matter of the transfer of ports more generally to a conclusion. In doing so, however, it must ensure that there is a clear understanding of all of the issues involved.

Government policy regarding local government is very clear that responsibility at central government level in respect of any matters of policy, legislation, resources and accountability relating to functions discharged at local authority level rest with the relevant Department. For example, central government responsibility in relation to the roads functions discharged at local level by local authorities rests with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. Similarly, responsibility at national level for the transfer of certain ports to relevant local authorities continues to rest with that Department. That applies to the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company transfer and any other transfer taking place in the future, either as a result of a transfer of shareholding or by dissolution of an existing company, as well as to all regional harbours already transferred to local authorities.

Regarding the Dún Laoghaire harbour transfer specifically, I advise the House that the Minister has now consented to the signing of the necessary statutory instrument. This follows on from a previous consent provided by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. It is now a matter for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to complete the process using his powers under section 28 of the Harbours Act 2015 to dissolve the company and transfer the harbour to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Clearly, the Minister has let it be known that this is signed. He knows the ramifications. I do not threaten people at all. I have in sight a letter signed by the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, from which I will read. The letter is dated 16 July 2018 and in it the Minister thanks me for my correspondence. I have a lot of correspondence from many people and I intend to put into the public domain in the next few days after I have further legal advice on it. It is substantial. The Minister states:

Matters in relation to the transfer including any transfer of liabilities or costs are currently being discussed between the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and this Department. Unfortunately, I cannot comment further on this matter as it is still under negotiation.

That is fair enough. The Minister has a responsibility also to protect his Department. All I can say at this point is that I appeal to the Taoiseach and the Ministers for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Finance and Transport, Tourism and Sport to meet as soon as they can and to hold back for the moment. It is their call not mine. I am not a Minister and I am not in the Cabinet. However, a substantial number of questions will be prepared and they will be up next week or the following week and the Taoiseach will have to answer them. I caution him in that regard and note that there are issues which have not been addressed and which will be placed in the public domain within days. As such, I say "Festina lente".

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Senator for bringing this matter to the floor of the House. I will certainly make sure the points he has raised are brought to the attention of the relevant Ministers.

Acting Chairman (Senator Gerry Horkan)

I thank the Minister of State. I thank Senator Boyhan for raising this important matter.

Sitting suspended at 11.20 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.