I welcome back to the House once again the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth. I am looking around the Chamber at four Members, three of whom used to sit together on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, so I apologise, Senator Carrigy, if you are feeling a bit left out, but you are also more than welcome. Another couple of Senators are joining us now.
National Lottery (Amendment) Bill 2021: Committee Stage
SECTION 1
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."
I thank Senators Ward and Carrigy, who are here, and Senator Currie for raising this matter and for their concern about the national lottery. I have a few words to say on behalf of the Government about this Bill. The funding the national lottery raises is very important to community groups, clubs and organisations throughout Ireland. I very much appreciate the work of the Senators in raising important matters in this regard. I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. While the Minister, Deputy McGrath, cannot join us today, he has previously noted his concerns about lottery betting and the potential impact it may have on the national lottery and the generation of funding for good causes projects.
Before considering the detail of the Bill, I wish to speak for a moment about the good causes funding raised by lottery sales and its importance to Ireland. Senators will be aware that it is only a few weeks since the Minister spoke about the issue of good causes funding. While noting the moneys raised via lottery sales in 2021, the Minister welcomed the transfer of €289 million from the national lottery fund to the Exchequer in 2021. The transfer represents a significant 14% increase compared with 2020 and is a record and unprecedented figure under the licence commenced by Premier Lotteries Ireland, PLI, in 2014 as well as a commendable achievement in light of the challenging trading environment in 2021. The Minister also noted that €6 billion has been raised for good causes since the national lottery commenced operations in 1987. I know that the Minister also in the past fortnight attended the launch of the national lottery Good Causes Awards. The awards honour the inspiring work and achievements of thousands of projects, clubs and individuals all over Ireland. The Minister noted at that ceremony that the awards provide the perfect opportunity to recognise and highlight the amazing work carried out by groups all over the country. Too often the efforts of our local clubs and voluntary groups may go unnoticed and we may not be aware of the organisations working tirelessly to the benefit of our communities.
My colleagues, the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, and the Minister of State in her Department, Deputy Chambers, recently announced a record-breaking allocation of €150 million for the sports capital programme. Funding raised by national lottery sales has for many years contributed to the development of sports facilities in our communities and regions, and it is truly inspiring to see such facilities continuing to develop, with all the consequent positive impacts for citizens. The Revised Estimates document published by the Department sets out where good-causes funding will be allocated in 2022. Appendix 1 to the document notes the funding will be distributed over five separate Departments: the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media; the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage; the Department of Health; the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth; and the Department of Rural and Community Development. The total funding allocated in these areas is more than €450 million. It is evident, therefore, that the funding raised from lottery sales is supplemented by Exchequer funding.
I emphasise my support and that of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform for the tremendous work facilitated through national lottery sales and our desire to sustain this. In that context, the Minister has been actively considering measures, including the Bill proposed today, that might serve to sustain lottery sales into the future. Three such lines of action are being considered by him, which I will address in sequence. The first, of course, is the proposed legislation before us. I understand the aim of the Bill is to prohibit licensed bookmakers from taking bets that use lottery products. The Minister has some concerns regarding the impact of the proposed Bill. One such concern was highlighted on Second Stage regarding the replacement section, section 46.1. The proposed version of section 46(1) applies to betting offers rather than lottery games, leaving lottery providers apparently free to make use of the national lottery and its name. However, the broader fundamental concerns relate to the compatibility of the proposed legislation with wider European law. The issues include proportionality in that justifying a complete ban on a previously legitimate business activity that has been in place for some 30 years is particularly challenging. Second, there is the matter of restricting the freedom to provide certain gambling services pursuant to Articles 49 and 56 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. Third, such restrictions would be incompatible with EU law unless there were overriding reasons that justified them as a non-discriminatory and proportionate means of achieving legitimate objectives in the public interest. We have had discussions with the Attorney General on those points.
I am very open to hearing the views of Senators on how these legal issues might be addressed. It would be desirable to have clarity on them before any legislation is enacted. We would all agree that legislation that leads to lengthy legal challenges or disputes would not be in anyone's interest, least of all that of the lottery, which might suffer associated reputational damage.
A secondary issue that also relates to the proposals is the capacity of bookmakers to adjust their lottery offerings to make use of alternative international lotteries. I do not know how likely that is, the take-up of such games and how many players might not opt for such games and instead revert to or commence playing national lottery games. There may be a case for more information in this regard. I am referring to the idea that people would switch to betting on the EuroMillions, the UK lottery or another lottery. In that context and given the concerns over legal actions to sustain lottery sales and good-causes funding, the Minister has been active in considering other options. One such option, which is perhaps the most sustainable in the long term, is to strengthen further the link in the public mind between purchasing lottery tickets and contributing to good causes. I have noted that the Revised Estimates set out the allocation of funding from lottery sales, but I am aware that the Minister is interested in examining options from this process to make them more transparent and robust, and, furthermore, to make more visible the impact of lottery funding in communities throughout the country.
The Minister is also interested in seeing how other jurisdictions manage this process. This is critical. We know that because of the contribution of lottery sales to good causes, playing lottery games will never offer the returns that might be available in more traditional forms of gambling. What lottery games can offer is the added benefit of knowing not only that the games themselves can be enjoyed but also that communities throughout the country can benefit from the good-causes funding raised. As such, it is essential that there be improved systems for deciding how the funding should be allocated and for making its impact visible locally and nationally. I note in this regard that the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, has appointed consultants to review current arrangements in respect of good-causes funding. Work has already commenced in respect of the current practices in the allocation of funding for good causes, and work has also commenced on systems and best practice in other jurisdictions and lessons learned.
The review will also set out the principles that will underpin any future framework to inform funding allocation along with the options for new approaches to the allocation of funds arising from the lottery to good causes. The report will also have regard to any issues that might arise in any transition to a new process and how these issues can best be managed. The review is scheduled to conclude in the second quarter of 2022.
Work is under way in the Department of Justice to introduce a significant suite of reforms concerning the models for licensing and regulating gambling in Ireland. It will be important to monitor the development of that legislation and the role of the proposed gambling regulatory authority. We discussed on Second Stage certain inconsistencies in promotional strategies that may be used by bookmakers and their activities that are not permitted under the national lottery licence. The gambling authority may have a role in this regard and, more generally, in regulating the activities of bookmakers. I believe the Department of Justice is introducing its gambling legislation for pre-legislative scrutiny in March. That is only weeks away.
In response to what the Minister of State said, I join him in acknowledging the considerable funding that has been made available this year in the form of sports capital grants. Every one of us sees the impact that this kind of funding can have on local organisations, clubs and associations in our areas. It is very plain to see. I am thinking of places in my area such as Kilbogget Park, where an enormous amount of work could be done on foot of the funding to provide floodlighting, drainage, etc. That is just one aspect of what comes out of good-causes funding. The Minister of State has highlighted the importance of the benefits of the national lottery. The impetus behind this Bill from the word go was the desire to be able to channel and sustain as much money as possible for the good-causes fund so the likes of sports capital grants can continue.
On Second Stage, the Minister raised several issues. I realise we are talking about section 1 and that the primary issue the Minister raised relates to section 3. I am more than happy to engage on that issue. A legitimate issue has been raised regarding the wording and the difference between the terms. We will be quite happy to engage. I look forward to engaging with the Minister of State's office on that.
There are a couple of general points I would like to make on the Bill, including section 1. On gambling legislation, this is a separate issue. The national lottery is regulated and comes under a different Department. As the Minister of State knows, it is under the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform whereas the gambling issues fall under the Department of Justice. Gambling is a different beast in many ways. We do not have to go into all the details, but important factors are the strictures on the national lottery, the fact that it is run under licence and already regulated and the fact, perhaps primarily, that it gives back a social dividend, a contribution of almost 30% of its funding, in the form of good-causes funding. That is tremendously important and not to be sneezed at.
I note what the Minister of State said about the approach of the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, and his desire to put in place a measure that will protect the national lottery. As laudable as it might be to strengthen the link in people's minds between the national lottery and the good-causes fund - I support any campaign to do that - it is not enough. It will not make people invest in the national lottery over other gambling products, many of which would be cheaper.
Although we have mentioned good causes, the social dividend and all the rest of it, we should note the national lottery provides good to the society and economy of Ireland at all levels because shops we all know, including retail and grocery shops run by locals, including families, are also fed by the lottery. They operate as agents for the national lottery and get a payment if they sell a winning ticket. I am sure they all wish for that to happen, as do the potential winners.
More than that, it drives footfall into small local businesses. We know we have a problem with online trading and with large multiples coming in to areas and sucking the life out of villages and towns. The national lottery is one of the vehicles we can use to ensure that people continue to frequent and spend money in local business and small shops. That is not to be ignored either.
There are myriad ways in which this is of benefit. I just do not think that a public information or marketing campaign to explain to people the good that comes from comes from spending money on a national lottery ticket is enough. We already know there is a specific element that is being diverted away from the national lottery and by extension from all the good causes and other benefits like driving footfall into local shops. We know that is being driven away. The only way to tackle that is with a legislative solution that is going to address this directly. That is what lies at the heart of the Bill.
I am aware of the issues the Minister of State raised in the context of proportionality. I do not agree with him. I am always slow to disagree with the Attorney General, who is a far greater lawyer than I ever will be, but I feel that it is a capitulation in many ways to suggest that somehow the bookmaking industry has a legitimate expectation - I know the Minister of State did not use that term - or has some kind of right to stop this from happening. I do not accept that.
The Minister of State said that any legislation that is going to end in protracted litigation is not a good thing. Sometimes that is exactly what is required. I would hope it would not happen and I would not desire it. It would be bad for everyone in this case. There are times when we need to take a stand, however. In the context of all the good that we can derive as a society, an economy and a country from the national lottery it seems that this is a proportionate measure.
I take on board the point the Minister of State makes about the capacity of bookmakers to switch and change. This is a party-political point but like some parties, they can change their colours to do what needs to be done at the time. I accept that is the case but we must do what we can without our sphere of influence. If commercial bookmakers decide to run a product with foreign lotteries, there is a limited extent to which we can influence that. The national lottery is our lottery and it provides funds for our good causes and sports clubs. It drives footfall into our shops and communities. We can control the effect on that. The Bill is proportionate and is an effective way to do that. However, I recognise that the Minister of State has identified drafting flaws in it. I am happy to engage on that matter.
I have a couple of queries about the proposed legislation. Given that legislation on the regulation of gambling is coming from the office of the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, in the Department of Justice, as I said the last day to my colleague, I think this issue needs to be teased out with the regulator. We would be putting the cart before the horse otherwise. We hope to have a new regulator who will make changes to the regulations in place quite soon. For him to have something forced on him at this stage would be slightly rushed. I acknowledge the sentiments of my colleague, Deputy Ward, but my firm feeling is that we should wait until that time.
As the Minister of State knows, what the people on the ground think is very important. The lotto in Ireland is very expensive. It is far more expensive to do the Irish lotto, with a minimum spend of €4, than it is to do EuroMillions. Lotto plus is €6. It is quite an expensive outlay from anyone's house at present, if they were to do it a couple of times a week. For the common man who is killing a bit of time and picking a ball for 50 cent for a chance of winning €100-odd euro, there is no comparison with the chance of winning millions in the lotto. It is chalk and cheese. The lotto was introduced in 1986. Since that time and nearly as soon as it had been formed this has been going on.
The good Senator started off talking about all the money that has been gathered over the years and all the money that has been spent on good projects through the lotto. We saw recently how any project that was in got 90% to 100% of the money they had looked for. That was the case for all the clubs recently. We never had as much money to give to clubs and schemes that have looked for it. This is in existence. The balls are being played for the last 30-odd years and we still have all this money to spend on good projects. Do we need more money?
I do not see the reason for the Bill, apart from the fact that the lottery is one of the few monopolies in this country. Are we really trying to strengthen its hand even more? I find it hard to understand what is driving this. That is my honest opinion. I know the guys here put the Bill together in good faith. For me, a lot of it does not add up. The small man on the ground is entitled to spend 50 cent on the Irish lotto. As the Minister of State said, the anomaly would be for him to have it on the British lotto balls or the EuroMillions balls or whatever else.
We cannot legislate for everything. We have legislated as strongly as we can to give the lotto a monopoly in this country. What more can we do for these guys unless they want to go around in Pampers or something? I do not know what else we can do for them. I feel very strongly about this. I am sure the Minister of State will engage with us before the end of the debate.
I fully support the Bill. I must point out at the outset that I am a national lottery agent. It has been in the family since it came out first. We were a ticket agent and when I took over my present business in 2007 I took on the full lottery agent. I want to clarify that the national lottery has a separate regulator. It is not going to be regulated the same as gambling. It is regulated completely differently and far more stringently. Only last week I did the compliance which I have to do on a yearly basis.
It is the bookmakers the Senators are trying to stop, though. Senator Carrigy is referring to the point I made.
I just feel that the national lottery is actually more stringently regulated with regard to its agents.
It is a monopoly.
On a yearly basis, we do compliance and we are the subject of twice-yearly checks to ensure that we are compliant with selling to over-18s. I think our policy is to sell to over-21s. We have maximum amounts on the number of tickets we are allowed sell to people. We have referrals, too, if we see that people are purchasing in excess of what we feel might be within their means. That does not happen in a bookmakers. Anybody can go in and purchase anything.
The figure of 30% was mentioned. The national lottery was set up to create funds for good causes in this country. The use of the national lottery numbers by bookmakers does not provide money for good causes. As an agent, and I am not giving away any secrets, my sales of the 5-4-3-2-1 would be less than 1% and 0% some weeks, because everyone is going through the bookmakers. Some 30% of those sales that would go to good causes for which the national lottery was set up are going to the profits of bookmakers instead. We need to get back to that core point. That is why the national lottery was set up.
I welcome the significant funds announced last week. This is the first occasion we have allocated 90% to 100% funding. In previous rounds we would have been down to 40% or 50% towards projects. The national lottery was set up to create a fund for good causes. The use of it by the bookmaking profession is not providing moneys into that fund.
I am strongly in favour of this regulation and the change.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I want to raise a number of issues. First, I have been contacted by many local independent bookmakers in Galway and across the country and by the representative organisation. Overall, looking at the statistics, there are 800 betting shops across the county with more than 7,000 employees. They are advising that this legislation represents a significant risk to them, as sales of lottery products make up 4% to 5% of their turnover. As Senator Davitt said, it is hard to see where the connection is with the legislation. It notes that the revenue and profits of the private operator of the national lottery, Premier Lotteries Ireland, have increased steadily since the national lottery was privatised in 2014. As outlined by our colleagues, the returns to the good cause fund have grown year on year from €178 million in 2014 to €289 million in 2021. That is very welcome.
In fairness, the national lottery has had a fair run. According to the statistics on the lucky number bets, 95% of the players bet on four numbers or less. As Senator Davitt alluded to, the average stake is 85 cent. The reality is that working-class people and many of those who I represent want to make a small investment and they are entitled to do so. The national lottery can cost €6 or €4, whatever the case may be. In that context, it seems evident that this product does not pose any substantial risk to the good causes fund. It should also be noted that the lucky numbers product is not advertised. I fail to see the connection. At the end of the day, when the national lottery was privatised in 2014, bookmakers were offering these markets as they had done since 1986. I find it problematic that the State would now intervene and alter the landscape for private operators that both provide gambling products and in effect provide for a monopoly in favour of one operator. It is also worth noting that bookmakers support thousands of jobs across the country and they have provided in excess of €100 million in betting duty over the past 12 months. There needs to be a balance here. The legislation needs to be looked at. I will await the Minister of State's response.
I wish to make one brief point. I am certainly anything but a spokesperson for gambling. I have been very anti-gambling. I am not in favour of gambling on mobile phones and other devices. It goes back to the example of the guy who wants to make a small bet and cannot afford the €6 to do the lottery on a Saturday evening. A point that seems to be glossed over is the fact that but for bookmakers and their support, we would possibly not have dog racing or horse racing industries in Ireland. That is the reality. Looking at any of the major or weekend-long events, but for the sponsorship that the events receive from the industry, they would not be there. It is one of the biggest industries that we have in Ireland. That must be taken into account.
I wish to make a quick point that I did not make previously. I know that there is a significant number of jobs in the bookmaking industry, but with regard to agencies, there are over 4,000 lottery agencies throughout the country, which are small shops, supermarkets and businesses. The knock-on effect is that a significant number, or tens of thousands of people working in that industry, will be affected. With regard to purchasing a similar product that the national lottery has, such as the Lotto 5-4-3-2-1, customers do not have to spend €6; it can be purchased for a smaller amount. That bet is available within the national lottery game already but the sales of that are affected by the fact that there is a higher return through the bookmakers because they do not pay into the good causes fund.
What is the minimum bet?
It is €4.
I must say that it is quite unusual that the five Members who are in the Chamber, including me, all happen to be members of the Industrial and Commercial Panel. I am not sure that that has ever happened before. We are experts. It is like a mini club of our own. We are all here today. The Members are welcome, along with the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth. I note Senator Ward wants to come back in.
I wish to make a few points. Senator Carrigy has highlighted that there are other lottery products offered that cost less. I acknowledge that there are people who use this facility through bookmakers and book with much smaller stakes. I am not sure that they are such a massive proportion of the market that it is a significant disadvantage of this legislation, but it is a fair point. At the same time, there is a suggestion that somehow, bookmakers are going to be at a huge loss as a result of the legislation. I do not accept that. Even according to some of the big commercial bookmakers' own figures, this is not going to have a substantial impact. We cannot have it both ways. On the one hand, it has been said the industry is one of the biggest industries in Ireland and on the other, it has been suggested that it might suffer significantly because we are taking the 50 cent bets out of the bookmakers. I do not think anybody is directly saying that but it cannot be both ways. It has to be one or the other. The bookmaking industry in this country is doing well. I am not anti-bookmaking or anti-betting. I am not a regular better but I would not be opposed to putting one on. I certainly do not want to hit small independent bookmakers around the country, the kind of people that the two Senators have been talking about. I do not want to hit them any more than anyone else does.
At the same time, Senator Crowe stated that they paid €100 million in betting levies. What he means to say, of course, is that they have paid their due tax under the system. That is not altruistic, nor is the support for the racing industry. Bookmakers in Ireland are commercial entities that are designed to make money. I make no criticism of them for that. Sometimes in politics there is an underlying criticism of people who want to make money but if people do not make money in this country, the economy does not work and we cannot provide the services for people that we all want to. I have no problem with people who want to make money. We must distinguish them from the national lottery, however, which in a very tangible way plugs a lot of money, not in an altruistic fashion and as one might also say as their legal due is as well, into a system from which all of our communities benefit. We have mentioned them to a significant extent in respect of the good causes funding that gives rise to the sports capital grants. The other important distinction is that the national lottery is regulated. I know that Senator Davitt was talking specifically about the forthcoming gambling regulator that we anticipate will regulate the bookmaking industry. That is totally separate from the national lottery regulator that regulates the lottery. They are two separate things, as I said earlier. They are also distinguished because the national lottery puts in place lots of restrictions. For example, Senator Davitt mentioned his opposition to mobile phone betting. I agree with him. I think the publicity surrounding commercial bookmaking and online gambling, or gaming, as it is called, because I think that is seen as a slightly more nuanced or acceptable term, is enormous. If you watch any sports event on television, if you play a game online, if you are involved in anything in an app, often you will be bombarded with ads for online gambling. I agree that this is really problematic. You cannot do that with the national lottery. You cannot spend more than €90 per day with the national lottery. There are lots of restrictions in place. When I was much younger, I worked in a family shop in Connemara. There was a particular person in the village who would get her social welfare and spend it all on scratch cards. You cannot do that any more. Those restrictions are in place. At the moment, they do not apply to the gambling industry. I suspect something similar will apply in due course when the gambling regulation legislation comes to us and is passed. We all look forward to that. However, there is a really important distinction to be made between what the national lottery does and what the gaming or gambling industry does. It is quite right to point out that the national lottery has a monopoly in this country. It does, which is why, when it operates under that licence, it has to jump through certain hoops such as providing 27.5% of its income in funding that comes back to good causes and other things that funnel money back into the community, whether it is through the shops and the agents that work for them throughout the country or whatever else it might be, and the fact that it is regulated. Therefore, I would not say that the lottery has had a good run of it. That is not the way I would put it. The lottery has served us well. Senator Carrigy has gone through some of the hoops that he has to jump through as a lottery agent. It is strictly regulated and notwithstanding that regulation, it delivers a result tangibly for the community and the individual organisations within the community.
The good-causes funding goes beyond the sports capital grants. There could perhaps be greater transparency around how it is spent but that is a matter for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I am sure the Minister has views on that. The point is that we know money from every euro spent on a lottery ticket or on any of the national lottery products is going back into that social dividend we talked about. That is tremendously important because it means that it is not, and I do not say this in a pejorative way, going into the coffers of a commercial enterprise. I do not criticise commercial enterprises as they are vitally important, but we, as a Legislature, should not seek to protect their income streams or to funnel more money to them. What we are trying to do is to keep money currently being diverted from the national lottery within the public realm where it benefits public services and public grants around the country. That is the purpose of the Bill. It is an important distinction between the two streams in regard to lotteries and gambling.
Senator Ward made some good points and I agree with much of what he said. Something that struck me, and it was in the newspapers quite recently, is that €90 million of unclaimed lottery moneys was reinvested in advertising over the past six years. This is a frightening figure. All this money could be going back into sports facilities and everything else. You are knocked down with lottery advertisements if you turn on RTÉ 1, RTÉ 2 or TV3. The amount of advertising for the lottery is just ferocious.
I made the point here before that I find stopping what is a family event on a Saturday evening, namely, the family film on RTÉ 1, to broadcast the lottery draw is downright disgusting. The lottery has enough to answer for without encouraging kids watching the family film. It talks about what it is doing, about regulation and so forth, but to me a certain amount of that is puppy tears when one sees what it is at and the way it carries on its business. To stop a family film and to show a lottery draw is corrupt. That would not go on anywhere else.
If someone is at home watching racing during the day, it is very unlikely their kids are going to sit and watch it. If kids are watching a film and if there is a break in the middle of it for the lottery draw, seeing mammy and daddy checking their lotto numbers is totally wrong. The lottery has a lot to answer for. It also has a lot to answer for around how it is spending its money. That figure I quoted and all the money that has been spent and all the sports-----
It has been invested in Irish advertising firms.
Yes but all the talk is about all the money being invested in the clubs and so on, but there is nothing about the €90 million being spent on advertising. That is the reality of it. It is not a matter of this money going into Irish sports clubs. A wall of money is being spent on advertising and promoting the lottery. That is the point I would like to make. It is a monopoly, so it has some of the strongest powers in the State already.
On Senator Davitt's point, it is a scheduling issue for RTÉ but I totally agree with what he said. It is something that should be looked at. RTÉ should take that on board and reschedule it. I have young kids and it frustrates me when it happens, but it is a scheduling issue. I agree with Senator Davitt that it needs to be changed.
There is more that unites all the Members than divides them.
I do not want to make this into a back and forth all day and I have probably had more than my fair say. I do not want to interrupt the Minister of State if he has comments on what has been said.
It is useful to have a debate like this and to exchange views. There is a difference of opinion here. The lottery is not shrinking. Revenues are growing. We had very strong growth from 2020 to 2021 of 14%. In 2020, €254 million of money was allocated for good causes, while €289 million was allocated in 2021. The question that arises is: what is the problem we are trying to solve? The problem is notional losses of money being bet on national lottery numbers, which is not resulting in increased funding for good causes. The question is: how do we remedy that? How can we take some of that money or what is the right approach?
With that in mind, we have commissioned an outside report. It is good to go outside of the Department, the Government and the political system and to ask what someone else thinks. The consultants will come back with their report in a couple of months and it will be interesting for us to read it. We have asked them what happens in other jurisdictions. There have been approaches in other jurisdictions. Senators Ward and Carrigy probably looked at this. How have other jurisdictions managed this and what is legally feasible? Different things may be feasible compared with our situation where this has operated for 30 years. What is the right way to do this? Is this the right approach to take on it? Is there another way to do this - for example, putting a levy on bookmakers? Is that feasible? We are happy to look at that as well.
Transparency matters because in any system where people do not know where the money goes and they are not clear where it is, that is not good. It could be suppressing lottery sales. One of the first things I did when I entered the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform was to ask: where is the lottery money going, how is it allocated and what is the scheme for that? At the time roughly €250 million was allocated for good causes. However, when I looked at the revised Estimates, it was more than €400 million. My understanding is that the revised Estimates were a combination of lottery funding plus other funds. In any system where there is aggregate funding on the line and the breakdown is not known, it is not clear enough.
There are very large amounts of money being allocated to five different Departments. When you are allocating sums of money that are now approaching €333 million, you need to know very transparently how those decisions are being made, what that allocation scheme is, what people can expect-----
The time allocated for this debate was 40 minutes and we have reached that.
I have said all I want to say. My office is open to anybody who wants to discuss this further.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 1.57 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 2 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 1.57 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.