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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 2022

Vol. 285 No. 8

National Minimum Wage (Payment of Interns) Bill 2022: Second Stage

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am very pleased to propose this Bill to ban unpaid internships. We are all a product of the circumstances in which we were born and grew up and we all have our own stories about the chances and opportunities we got in life to get us to where we are now. While many of us would like to think that merit alone has brought us to where we are, research suggests that the opportunities and earnings we have at the early stage of our working lives go on to have quite a significant impact on our lifetime earnings and career progression. While for some young workers, unpaid internships are feasible because they can fall back on their parents' support or the support of another, for most workers - and I remember quite clearly my own experience when I graduated from university - working for free is simply not an option.

This is why the Labour Party wants to create a more level playing field in the world of work - a more level playing field for young people seeking work. This is why we are proposing this legislation. It is what we see as a long overdue step to ban what are called open market internships. It would follow the example of the UK, France, Australia and other countries that have legislation in place to tightly regulate and restrict unpaid internships. What we are proposing follows on from the call of the European Parliament in 2020 when it passed a motion calling for a ban on unpaid internships across all EU member states. This was in the context of a wider set of calls for supports for young workers and jobseekers.

Ultimately, we believe that all work undertaken must be recognised, respected and, at the very least, paid for at the level of the national minimum wage. That is why this Bill is called the National Minimum Wage (Payment of Interns) Bill. We have known for years that networks and connections are crucial to opening the doors for young workers to access work experience and employment opportunities. This is not a bad thing, but, of course, when those doors being opened is contingent on someone taking up an unpaid internship, that is when we have a fundamental difficulty. In particular, we know from research conducted by the International Labour Organization, ILO, that young workers from higher socioeconomic class backgrounds are more likely to access paid internships. It is interesting that the Social Mobility Commission in the UK observed in 2016 that work experience and internships are seemingly essential to getting a job. It states that nearly half of recruiters indicated that graduates with no previous work experience would have little or no chance of receiving a job offer. If those from less advantaged backgrounds are unable to access paid internships and cannot afford to do an unpaid internships, the odds are very clearly stacked against these young people before their careers even get started. It is for this reason that we are bringing forward the Bill. We believe that unpaid internships reinforce privilege.

We also believe that unpaid internships reinforce a lack of diversity across some sectors. We know that in some sectors in this country and many other countries, unpaid internships are a rite of passage. We think of the media sector, some parts of the arts sector, fashion, NGOs, the charity sector, law and even the world of politics. Plenty of Members take on interns and trainees. It is not quite clear whether all of them are paid. When the question gets asked about why we do not see greater diversity in certain sectors, we need to look at the route into those sectors. Unfortunately, we do not have in-depth research into internships in Ireland. We can look to the experience in the UK, however. Research there by the Sutton Trust found that while just 7% of the population is privately educated, some 51% of the leading print journalists and 74% of the top judges were privately educated. We obviously do not have comparable data for Ireland. While the figures in this regard may not be as high here, there is an important lesson in those from the UK.

Overall, there is limited international research on the impact on employability and earnings from what are termed open market internships, but we know from the ILO and other research that, on average, the research on this area does indicate that paid internships tend to lead to better outcomes. There is a chicken-and-egg effect here. When employers have to pay, they tend, on average to provide a better quality work experience, which is in their interest and the interest of the intern.

There are no reliable figures as to how many internships are undertaken here each year. However, I am struck by the words of Ross Perlin in his book Intern Nation: How to Earn Nothing and Learn Little in the Brave New Economy. He states: "it is striking that so much of our evidence for apprenticeships, in every period, is gleaned from legal records. By contrast the meteoric half century rise of internships has barely left a trace in official records." That is as true for Ireland as elsewhere because we do not have a comprehensive legal definition of internships and, as I understand it, the CSO does not or effectively cannot pick up unpaid internships in its earnings surveys because the interns are not working to begin with. However, we know from the GradIreland annual survey of graduate employers, from our conversations with the Charities Institute, which I want thank for providing its insights into what is happening on the ground, and, most importantly, from talking to young workers, that internships are most definitely a major feature of early work life in Ireland.

When drafting our Bill, we carried out a survey. More than 200 young workers responded. A clear and recurring message from the responses was the exploitation experienced by young workers on unpaid internships. These are workers who have the same responsibilities as full-time workers and of whom there are the same expectations but whose employers do not feel compelled to pay them. Some people will ask whether this Bill will apply to every training internship. The answer is "No". We have set out a very narrow number of scenarios to which this Bill would not apply. If somebody is shadowing somebody in a workplace, that is very different to coming in the door on Monday morning to be told: "This is your desk. Be grateful you are here in the workplace at all. We don't need to pay you because you should be grateful to be here." That distinction is important.

I spoke earlier about the lack of diversity in certain sectors. One person we surveyed recalled that in his internships, he was surrounded by people exactly like him - middle-class and educated. This person said he could work unpaid and rely on his parents for financial support. He said that unpaid internships only serve in the context of gatekeeping corporate or public employment while using interns as free disposable labour. We often hear that companies might not be able to afford to take on a trainee yet on the ground, we know this is often not the case. One young lady told us that she interned for a well-known radio station for seven months and was not paid for the entire period. She did two full days per week, working 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. She was doing the work of a full-time employee - researching, booking guests, editing, etc. - and she was not getting paid. The station would not even consider paying her travel expenses. She stated that its top talent were getting paid absurd amounts of money. Most of us here have probably been on that radio station.

We know that the business model of some companies relies on unpaid labour.

Another person said that internships helped them gain experience in a field where it would have been difficult to get work experience otherwise but they said their experience was that their internship was one in a long line of free labour availed of by their boss. They were unpaid for nine months in an entry level job that did not require expertise. Importantly, a paid employee was let go while they were on an internship there and the person took over their duties. This issue of the displacement of existing and paid employees to make way for an intern is a key one. The other key point we found in our survey is that unpaid internships are endemic in certain sectors. A young trainee solicitor told us that they had to beg someone to let them work for them unpaid. They worked for just under two years unpaid, never missing a day.

For us this is a simple Bill and it sets out a comprehensive definition of what an "intern" or a "trainee" is. It is somebody working more than 30 hours per week within a period of four or more weeks and somebody who does not necessarily have a contract of employment but who is referred to as a trainee or an intern. I spoke earlier about the narrow set of exemptions to this, which is important and which includes somebody working in a family business or somebody volunteering in the context of a charity. There is a distinction to be made between somebody volunteering and somebody working within a charity or another philanthropic organisation. If somebody has to undertake a traineeship in the context of their educational qualifications then that internship has to be linked to that specific educational qualification. There is a check and balance in the Bill such that if there is displacement of an employee then that is grounds to bring a case to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC.

More than 75,000 people are due to graduate from third level institutions this summer. We want to ensure that each can compete for jobs on a level playing field. We want it to be based on their skills and ability and not on whether their parents or others can afford to pay their rent that they will take up these jobs. Our Bill is not about shutting down volunteering, the stuffing of envelopes for an hour or shadowing to better understand how a job is done; it is about ensuring that all work is paid and that there is an end to unpaid internships in this country.

Before I call Senator Wall I want to welcome Senator Malcolm Byrne and his guests and Senator Casey and his guests to the Gallery.

I welcome the Minister of State back to the House. I am proud to speak on this Bill and in doing so I want to thank my colleague, Senator Sherlock, for bringing forward such legislation and for all her hard work on it. She has been championing legislation to improve the quality of life of all workers in recent years, from paid sick leave to paid leave for pregnancy loss. I am also glad that the Bill provides for the needs of students, as they are more than deserving of the minimum wage for all the work they carry out.

This Bill is simple yet effective and would bring unpaid internships within the remit of the minimum wage, which after all, is only right and fair. Unpaid internships are often billed, advertised and promoted as incredible opportunities, learning experiences and exposure, when in reality we all know that unpaid internships are used by companies, employers, and even sometimes public bodies, to plug gaps in their workforce. It is simply unpaid labour and it is unfair. It is truly sad to realise that in 2022, as Labour Party Members of this Seanad, we still need to repeat the old honest refrain and mantra of a decent day's pay for a decent day's work. Unpaid work not only makes it harder for individuals to make ends meet but it undermines the value of work across the board. It also undermines the value of the skills, commitment and ability that people bring to this work.

It is worth noting that the existence of internships may be a recent development in Ireland but the growth of their popularity should tell us a lot about how they are being used. As Senator Sherlock mentioned, the responses from the interns to the survey conducted by the Labour Party on this are stark. I was particularly taken aback by a response from a woman in the county that I live in, Kildare, whose internship was unpaid. For her, it did not contribute to an academic qualification and it lasted longer than one year. How have we reached this place in a modern and wealthy economy? According to recent reports, the rich spent the global pandemic increasing their share of the pile, yet we still have people so badly in need of the experience demanded by companies and employers in Ireland that they have to work unpaid for more than a year. It completely undermines the value of work.

It was important that I came in early on this debate because we are not opposing the Bill and I want to be clear on that. I thank Senator Sherlock and her team, including Senator Wall, for bringing forward this Bill. We are happy to engage with the Senator to get behind what it is that she genuinely wants to achieve and to see if it threatens the legal position or not. We need to deal with her on that more.

I welcome the Bill from the Labour Party on the national minimum wage, which addresses a concern around internships that are either unpaid or paid at less than the national minimum wage. The Bill seeks to ensure that those performing work as interns are paid appropriately in cases where work has been undertaken by the person concerned. The Government is not opposing the Bill and we are happy to engage in more detailed scrutiny of it to see what we can achieve together on this. The Government believes that genuine internships, based on a training opportunity, can be mutually beneficial for interns, who gain first-hand and real world experience, and for employers, which gain from having another individual to perform tasks, often with a fresh perspective in the case of current students and recent graduates. It will be important to protect those genuine internships that involve training and in that regard we have to be careful with any legislative changes we make with this Bill. That is our concern and we will work with the Senator on that.

This Private Members' Bill is particularly concerned with arrangements where a person is undertaking work that is of benefit to an enterprise or another host organisation and the danger that such internships could be exploitative. We will all agree that should not happen and I am happy to work with the Senator on some of the cases she has put forward. I accept her point that there should be a level playing field for those who can access internships. If they are unpaid, that means there are not equal opportunities but we are clear that if interns are doing work then they should be paid, and if it involves training in the Government-backed scheme, that involves payment in line with the minimum wage. However, other internships that are not on a level playing field and I am happy to work with the Senator and the various sectors on those.

The reference to performing more than 30 hours of work over a four-week period as a threshold has been put forward in the Bill. At present, the term "intern", as Senator Sherlock said, is not legally defined in employment law. A person is either a trainee, volunteer or employee under our law and employees, with some exceptions, are protected by the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 and, therefore, while the Government acknowledges the intent of the Bill, it needs to be scrutinised to determine whether it provides any additional or enforceable rights to interns not already available in current legislation. That is slightly different from the equal opportunity that the Senator spoke about. That might not necessarily need to be in legislation and it might be possible to deal with that outside of legislation. I am not sure, on reading the Bill with my team, if it brings in any new protections for existing interns but we are happy to tease through that with the Senator.

Internships have increasingly become an integral part of the school-to-work transition for many young people. A 2018 paper from the International Labour Organization, ILO, found that internships can be associated with better post-internship labour market outcomes and that there is overwhelming evidence that paid internships are associated with better post-internship labour market outcomes in the short term than unpaid ones. That would match up with what the Senator is saying about her research; that they should be paid. The Government actively supports and encourages the use of internships and work experience programmes at secondary and tertiary level and throughout all stages of further education. We have an attractive scheme available, Pathways to Work, which is not being utilised. It has corrected errors in the past and it is set at the right pay level but I would like to see it more greatly used. I am sure from listening to Senator Sherlock's speech and from reading the Bill that there is no intention to change the status of such arrangements as part of this Bill. We are at one in trying to encourage proper internships that give training, enhance the person and give them an opportunity for the future.

If I am wrong about that, please let me know, but I assume there is no intention to change that. With the four or five cases set out, I just want to be absolutely clear we are on the same page in that respect as well.

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is also responsible for overseeing the processing of work permits, including internship employment permits. One of the criteria for this permit is that the level of wage must be at the national minimum wage or higher. Again, I mention this to illustrate that the Government actively supports genuine internships that involve training, and we want to continue to support these types of internships as part of our labour market policy. I assume we are all at one on that.

The Government believes that all workers should be rewarded for the work they perform and that no individual should be exploited by performing work and not being rewarded fairly. The Senators cited some cases that do not seem fair to me. I am conscious the employers are not mentioned but what is occurring is not something any of us would agree with. The Bill appears to propose and to formalise a notice issued by the Workplace Relations Commission in May 2019 in connection with the application of the national wage to contracts of employment and what constitutes such a contract of employment. It may seek to go beyond that. If it does, we must scrutinise it in detail to ensure that what is being proposed has merit and, ultimately, is enforceable. It is important that with whatever we put forward, we can monitor and enforce any provisions. That is why I differentiated the matter of a level playing field for those people who cannot afford to take on an unpaid internship. That might not be needed in legislation but it is certainly we can look at together.

As clarified in the Workplace Relations Commission notice from 2019, all individuals engaged under a contract of employment are covered under the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 and are thus entitled to the national minimum wage. That is clear in black and white. An important point is that a contract of employment is defined as any contract; however, it is described whereby an individual agrees with another person to do or personally perform any work or service for that person or a third person. There is no exemption in law from the obligation to pay the rates laid down in the National Minimum Wage Act when actual work is being performed. That is very clear. Therefore, the national minimum wage rates apply to work experience placements, work trials, internships and any other employment practice, regardless of the duration of the engagement.

The right to receive the minimum wage when work is being performed cannot be waived in a contract because any provision in an agreement to do so is void as a matter of law. The Government believes that all workers should be paid fairly for the work they perform, which at a minimum level would be equal to the current rate of the national minimum wage. This rate is designed to assist as many low-paid workers as is reasonably practical and to be set at a point that is both fair and sustainable. Since the establishment of the Low Pay Commission in 2015, there have been six successive increases in the national minimum wage rate, from €8.65 originally to €10.50 in January 2022. This represents an increase of 21.4%, which compares with an increase in consumer prices of 7% in the six years from December 2015 to December 2021, with much of this increase occurring in the second half of 2021. We are all conscious of what has happened in the past few months with inflation but I want to make the link that the Low Pay Commission has consistently been ahead of the consumer price index over those years, which is right. It is the case that we must look at what has happened in the past six months.

In addition to these increases in the national minimum wage, the Government is also committed to achieving its programme for Government commitment to progress to a living wage during its term of office. In January 2021, the Tánaiste requested the Low Pay Commission to examine this request and in March this year he received the living wage report. He is currently reviewing the recommendations contained in that report and intends to bring these to the Government shortly.

Another point to note in respect of this Bill is that since the establishment of the Low Pay Commission in 2015, not only has the minimum wage increased much faster than inflation but the share of workers on the minimum wage in Ireland has also fallen consistently. That is positive but we are conscious there is more work to be achieved. The share of workers on the minimum wage or less as a percentage of the total labour workforce reduced from 9.3% in the fourth quarter of 2016 to 6.8% in the fourth quarter of 2020. However, the Government also acknowledges there are too many workers on low pay in Ireland, and this is something the Tánaiste addressed in the Lower House quite recently. It is clear that this is something we intend to address in a wider series of reforms.

The Low Pay Commission will continue to look into all areas of low pay, including effects on employment and the impact of youth rates. That is in addition to the ongoing work of examining universal basic income. Again, the Government is happy to engage in detailed scrutiny of this Bill and it agrees with the principle that all workers should be rewarded for the work they perform. The Government is not opposing the Bill, but feels further scrutiny is required to assess in detail what additional enforcement rights it would provide to interns that are not currently provided for in the existing legislation. I commit to working with the Senator on this, as I have done with previous Bills.

The workplace and experience programme is operated through the Pathways to Work strategy by the Department of Social Protection. It is a scheme I have highlighted to many employers as best I can, as well as people on the live register for more than six months, including time spent on the pandemic unemployment payment. It is not being utilised to the level I hoped it would. It is a demand-led scheme and we have set aside positions for into the thousands but fewer than a couple of hundred have applied for it. Again, there is a combination of employers and a real shortage of talent. They are looking to take on workers full-time. In addition, unemployment levels have gone back down to approximately 5% much quicker than any of us thought would happen, which is really positive. This workplace and experience programme would still be of benefit to some sectors and people. I ask people to give consideration to that scheme.

The scheme has been changed and adapted in comparison with other schemes over the years and it is a very fair scheme that guarantees nearly 60 hours of training during a six-month placement. Everybody gains, and it is well monitored and co-ordinated. I encourage people to look at it. The current basic payment for participants in the scheme is just slightly under the minimum wage because it was set before the minimum wage change in January 2022 and we will deal with that and bring it into order. It is practically the same as the minimum wage but it should be the correct level so we will correct it.

The people on the scheme continue to receive social welfare payments in respect of qualified adults and children. In our view, it is set at approximately €311, which is above social protection and correct. It comprises 30 hours per week and is only for six months. I encourage people to look at the scheme because it is a genuine internship programme with training. It is well-monitored and it should lead to positive outcomes for those who need assistance getting back to work with an activation measure. It is also important for companies that want to try to create new jobs but may not be in a position to take on somebody full-time. This is a chance for a person to learn on the job and get the training before, we hope, getting a full-time job in the company. The work experience is certainly important and all the research indicates that genuine internship schemes, which I believe the Senator is in favour of, can work and be a benefit to those who take them on. That is only right and it is an area we want to continue to work on so we can deliver better programmes, if we can, along the way.

I thank the Senators and look forward to further engagement on the Bill.

I thank Senators Sherlock and Wall for bringing the Bill before the House. As the Minister of State outlined, the Government will not be opposing it. Having said that, there are a number of matters which need to be examined.

This Bill seeks to ensure that those performing work as interns are paid for their work and if they do more than 30 hours of work within any period of four weeks for another person they would be an employee for the purposes of the National Minimum Wage Act 2000. The Bill will need to be examined in detail to determine whether it provides any additional and enforceable rights to interns not already available in existing legislation. All Members across the Houses realise there is an issue and would be supportive of the idea. Nevertheless, I am concerned about the finer detail.

A key point in this regard is that existing legislation provides persons engaged in meaningful work for another person with full protection under employment law, including the rate of national minimum wage, irrespective of whether a written contract of employment exists or whether the engagement is described as an internship or anything else. Arrangements that may be described as internships are not defined, really, by Irish legislation and it should be noted that the designation "intern" by itself has no bearing on the determination of the employment status of an individual. I am sure Senators Sherlock and Wall are well aware of that.

Once it is clear that an individual is undertaking meaningful work, as opposed to merely shadowing another worker or engaging in other training activities, that person has the same protection under employment law as other employees. Apart from the employment of close family relatives and in the case of apprenticeships, there is no exemption in law from the obligation to pay the national minimum hourly rate of pay when work is being performed.

Therefore, the national minimum wage rate applies. It is possible that the only effect of the Bill would be to clarify existing law and this matter needs to be further examined and explored as part of detailed scrutiny. I will leave it at that for now and possibly will come back in.

I welcome the Minister of State. I thank Senator Sherlock and the Labour Party for tabling this Bill. It is important to have a good discussion about it. It comes at the right time to increase workers' protections and rights. As most of us who are on the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment know, the Tánaiste and Minister of State are progressing much legislation to protect workers' rights, whether it relates to sick pay, remote working or the right to disconnect. Much of what the committee is doing, which the Government has committed to, relates to workers' rights. As has been said, the Government, including Fine Gael, is not opposing this legislation, but it is important to discuss it further.

Senator Sherlock is obviously not saying that every single person should be paid, including people who are shadowing others for experience. We sometimes find that people who are shadowing are behind a desk for another part of the day. There is vagueness about who is an intern and who is not. It is subjective, with employers possibly stating that they think people are only interns who are shadowing people, when they could be doing some work as well as shadowing. We need to tease through that. In her contribution, Senator Sherlock said internships can be a disadvantage depending on people's social backgrounds. I get that and entirely agree with the Senator. She said that not enough research is done on internships in Ireland, though there is sufficient research in the UK and elsewhere. We probably need more research to be done. It is logical to say that what Senator Sherlock said is true. If people are not from a background where they have the advantage of their parents paying for their accommodation or upkeep for a while when they are doing an internship, they are at a disadvantage.

The existing law was clarified by the Workplace Relations Commission in May 2019, which stated that the National Minimum Wage Act applies to all individuals engaged under a contract of employment. The law defines a contract of employment as a "contract whereby an individual agrees with another person to do or perform personally any work or service for that person or a third person". The law exists for someone who works. It is important to ensure that employers are not taking advantage of people. Young people could easily be taken advantage of. They might feel that they have a great opportunity or that this is their one chance to get into a big company or a big-name profession to start their career, but they are actually just being used and taken advantage of. While we might already have legislation in place, law to protect those people is important. It is an interesting discussion that we can work on in a cross-party way to protect the rights of interns.

We are focusing on the point of protecting people and people being used or abused in a certain way at work, but there is a positive element to internships too, which Senator Sherlock focused on in her contribution. We do not have to look too far. This House shows the positivity that internships can have. People see the role of politics and what is involved by spending a number of weeks here, then decide whether politics is a role for them or not. We see that every week in the Houses. We know people who have started in internships and now work here full-time. Members of this House started as internships, then worked, and are now Members. It plays a key role in determining someone's career. We should not take away from that. I welcome the debate. I thank the Labour Party, particularly Senators Sherlock and Wall.

I thank my colleagues from the Labour Party. In the best traditions of the Labour Party, they introduced legislation for workers. I know Senator Sherlock did a lot of work on this. I have a difficulty with the proposed new provision in section 1, namely, section 2A(b), which refers to situations where "the worker does not expect and has no reason to expect payment". I see a loophole there for people to exploit those who might be taken in on work experience or internships, in that they might claim they stated at the outset that the people involved had no expectation of payment. The words "intern" and "work experience" have been bywords for exploitation in this country for as long as I can remember. Junior hospital doctors have been exploited by working for many more hours than the ordinary individual. They are paid, but by no means are they paid the sort of money they should be. Accounting trainees are exploited to the last, working for 18 hours a day in some cases. Young legal staff in solicitors' offices work for countless hours. Devilling takes place in the Law Library and some involved are not paid. The bottom line is that those particular terms have been used to exploit workers for as long as I can remember.

When I was a teacher, I placed students on work experience and instructed them that they are not there to run errands or make tea, but to experience the job. I placed one young fellow in a company in Galway. In his time there, he repaired a particular apparatus. He rang me near the end of the three-week period. He said the guy he was working for was charging for some of the work he did and asked what I thought he should do. I said to talk to him and say he wanted to be paid. He did so and the employer in question paid him. The employer said he never thought he should pay him but that he was right, since he did work that the employer received income for. Sometimes it is a misunderstanding, sometimes it is exploitation and sometimes it lies in the grey area that Senator Ahearn was talking about.

Senator Ahearn mentioned those who come into political life as interns. I have not seen it in recent times but in the early days here, there were interns who got nothing and were sent out delivering leaflets and newsletters for the Member they were working for. That was gross exploitation. It was wrong in every sense. That was not what they came here for. They came for what Senator Ahearn talked about, which is to experience political life, to see how legislation moves through the House, and to get involved in research and such. I do not believe Senator Ahearn or any of his colleagues today would want to engage in that sort of thing.

We need to step back and look at how workers are exploited in this country. We need to look at the terms "intern" and "work experience". Both of those terms are misused and misunderstood. Young graduates coming out of college are expected to work in a company for a year, to be grateful for it and to get no income. That is just nonsense. It used to be a rite of passage to give all of this time, but times have changed. Rents are high in Dublin. Parents are stretched to their collars trying to keep families going. It is right and proper that work that benefits an organisation is paid for by the organisation. I know of no intern who is genuinely shadowing another professional all the time. If they are involved in the professions and are given work, it should be paid.

It is work that is quantifiable and verifiable. I am really anxious that we look at that.

I understand the question around working with or for family. Clearly there is a likelihood that someone will inherit into the organisation and that is probably a good thing.

I can see no apprenticeship that should not pay. Back when I was a lad young fellows left school and I think £2.50 a week was what they got when they started an apprenticeship and they moved up the salary scale as they went through it. I have known the Minister of State for a long time and I do not believe he would want to see any worker exploited. I see he has accepted this Bill, which is to his credit. We need to be more serious about what internships and work experience is about. There is a role here for the Workplace Relations Commission to educate employers. We are in a new world and we have to educate employers, as well as those who place students into an internship or a work experience programme.

I was always very careful to advise the students we placed in an internship or work experience programme as to what was regarded as work experience and what was exploitation. They were not there to make tea, sweep the floors or clean up in the evening. They were there to learn and part of the learning was working and part of the working was work that generated income for the organisation. That has to be the key measure. If there is an income-generating aspect of the work experience, then that has to be paid for although how we quantify it might be difficult.

I am out of time. I thank Senator Sherlock. It is a great piece of work. We might talk about the little line that I am not comfortable with. I do not want to leave any room for exploitation here. I really congratulate her. It is a great piece of work by both of the Senators.

I congratulate my trade union colleagues in the Labour Party on this short Bill. It has a very simple and clear purpose: to ban unpaid internships by bringing interns under the remit of minimum wage legislation. It is a progressive Bill and something we should all be able to support. I am pleased to see the Minister of State is not opposing it at this stage. I hope there is genuine consultation after this evening to see how we can progress this Bill. It is very important.

It is very important to listen to the examples that we have been given this evening about internships that are clearly exploitation. There has been no end of them. They have probably reduced in number recently because the jobs market has changed quite significantly but it is still a massive issue. We should remind ourselves that it is not that long ago that Ireland's most famous fast food restaurant was taking people in for trials that they would never get paid for and they were never called back in for work. It was all over Joe Duffy's "Liveline" show just before the pandemic. It is something that happens all the time. Hopefully we all agree that exploiting young people is one of the worst things that can happen because it really sets them up very badly for life. One thing I have noticed is that the entry-level positions for jobs now ask for two or three years' experience. That is a fundamental change in the jobs market that was not there before. It puts people, particularly school leavers, at a severe disadvantage because how do they get that experience? If the only route open to them is unpaid internships that puts a particular problem in front of us. For wealthy families that might be something their sons and daughters can do and they will be fine but for working-class people, it makes life harder still. In terms of establishing a level playing field there is real merit in ensuring that people get paid for the work that they do. Therefore, I very much welcome the Bill.

There are some related issues around young people and low pay. Indeed the Minister of State touched on some of them. I am glad to hear him acknowledge this evening that we have too many people on low pay. When the Tánaiste was in here about a year ago, he disputed that with me. It is hard to dispute, however, because the OECD figures tell us that 23% of workers in the State, one in four, are on low pay. That is a very stark figure and one of the highest levels in the EU. It really tells a tale and particularly given the cost of living crisis that we face. There are workers struggling. They are at the end of their tether and they simply do not have the means to pay for their bills for their families and their food. Therefore I have a positive suggestion for the Minister of State. He always expects me to come up with positive suggestions and that is what I am going to do this evening. I would like him to take a leaf out of the book of my colleague the Minister of Finance in the North, Conor Murphy. What we have done in power in the North is make the Government a living wage employer. Anyone who gets a contract from the Government in the North has to pay their workers a living wage. Imagine how transformative such a proposal would be down here. I would really welcome a positive engagement on that topic. That is a way to really ensure that people who work for a living can earn a living. That is a major problem at the moment.

While we are talking about young people I want to address sub-minimum rates of pay. Again, I have a problem with that. I am lucky enough to have a 16-year-old working at the moment for a summer job. He is in transition year. He is getting the minimum wage and I am delighted. However there are too many young people getting paid €7.35 an hour, which is the legal sub-minimum rate of pay. They are doing exactly the same work as workers beside them but they are being paid more than €3 less an hour. I have to ask how is that fair? How can the Minister of State expect people, even young people, to live off €7.35 an hour? It is not right. It is not fair. The issue of sub-minimum rates of pay must be addressed.

Finally, the Minister of State will not be surprised that I raise this next point. If we are going to raise low pay, we have to give workers the means to negotiate for wage rises. If a group of workers in a private company get together and say they want to negotiate collectively with their employer they have no statutory right to do so. The employer can legally say that they will not negotiate. If that is the case, then where can they go? Where do they go for their wage rise? How do they increase their wages? You only have to look at the numbers of people who are dependent on working family payments to see that we have a massive problem here with people on pay that is too low. The solution is to give workers a statutory right to collective bargaining. It is an issue that the Minister of State and I have discussed many times. Unfortunately we do not seem to be on the same page. I believe that people should have a statutory right to collective bargaining. If workers want to come together and negotiate with their employer, they should have the legal right to do so. Unfortunately this Government and previous Governments have blocked that right. We need to have a further debate on that.

Returning to this evening's debate, it is very important. There have been valuable contributions from everyone. I think everyone acknowledges that there are real issues for young people. We need to do more. I would ask the Minister of State to reflect that if Britain, with, let us face it, a fairly backward Government, can pass legislation to ensure interns are paid, it surely should not be beyond this Government to do the same. I hope that there is real engagement on the back of this evening's debate. I wish the Bill well and congratulate my colleagues in the Labour Party again.

I thank the Minister of State and Senators Crowe, Ahearn, Craughwell, Wall and Gavan for all their contributions this evening and for their support for the Bill. Senator Gavan touched on a wide range of issues regarding low pay and the living standards of workers in this country. This Bill is a drop in the ocean in terms of what needs to be done but it is an important one for what we estimate to be a few thousand workers. I am heartened by the support for the Bill. Support is one thing and enacting it, or something similar, is another. However, I was struck by the recurring question posed about whether interns are already provided for in existing legislation. If that is the case, it is hard for me to get my head around a Government standing over a widespread breach of a national minimum wage Act. We know there are breaches left, right and centre for workers of all ages but particularly in the context of internships because we see them advertised. We have seen public bodies advertise unpaid internships. There has been no response by the Government, which believes that this matter is already covered by legislation. There is a real question about that. I do not believe that internships are sufficiently covered by existing legislation. That is why we have this Bill here this evening.

To send a message out to employers and workers of all ages, but particularly young workers, it is really important that we would have legislation governing interns. It is a bit like saying there is no such thing as platform working; everyone is just a worker anyway. They are either self-employed or an employee.

An internship is a distinct form of employment, typically seen as a training period for under or over a year, whatever, and that needs to be accorded a proper legal definition and the rights with regard to pay following from that.

Senator Ahearn touched upon a very interesting point in respect of the grey area between shadowing and doing actual work. It is completely true that there are, of course, difficulties in identifying when a situation is shadowing or otherwise but we have to look at the context of where a person is working. Are they working for a family member or in the context of training that is directly contributing to an educational qualification? If we look at it through that framework, we resolve the issues in regard to shadowing and the actual work. I say that with a degree of discomfort because all work should be paid and anybody undertaking an internship in the context of their education should be paid. We were conscious in putting this forward this evening that we want to try to get as much support for it as we can. We will be bringing amendments if and when we ever do get to Committee Stage.

The second thing relates to an issue raised by Senator Craughwell about the proposed section (2A)(b) and to re-assure him, and I am aware that he is not present in the Chamber but he can read the record, that it is important to say where it refers to the expectation of payment that it sets out the three conditions upon which there would be an exemption.

I conclude by saying there needs to be more research to arrive at a better understanding of internships in this country and that is something that could certainly be commissioned by the Government. I am certain that there is a level of understanding that internships, for the most part, can often be unpaid and there is an expectation on the part of employers that if they offer an internship, they do not have to pay. That is a major loophole in our legislative framework in this country and is something that needs to be fixed. Gabhaim buíochas.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir féin.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 31 May 2022.

I congratulate our colleagues from the Labour Party on such a pertinent Private Members' Bill and the fact that we could achieve unanimity on it is important. Knowing the Minister of State, Deputy English, he will respond with actions.

When is it proposed to sit again?

Tomorrow morning at 10.30 a.m.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar athló ar 7.43 p.m. go dtí 10.30 a.m. Déardaoin, an 26 Bealtaine 2022.
The Seanad adjourned at 7.43 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 26 May 2022.
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