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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Jan 2024

Vol. 298 No. 7

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters (Resumed)

Vacant Properties

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, for coming to the House to discuss the very important issue of vacant and derelict properties, especially in Limerick city and county. A number of people have been on to me who are very welcoming of the grant but they have some issues with it. Is the Minister of State aware of the average wait time? I know people have to wait 13 months for the final decision. This is quite a bit of time. Have there been many appeals? Have the decisions changed where there have been appeals?

I was contacted by someone who was renovating their home with their own money. They were putting two bedrooms upstairs in an old cottage. They must spend the money to get the money back. This is fine but because they must wait until everything is finished they are finding it prohibitive. Could this be done in stages whereby people could get the money back as they spend it? I ask the Minister of State whether this could be considered. Other people are in the same situation of spending the money and having to wait for the final decision 13 months later. It means their money is tied up. The person I referred to has been told they are entitled to the grant. They have spent the money and now they are waiting for it to come back so they can do other jobs to the house. These are my key questions. How many applications have been received from Limerick city and county?

I acknowledge the indulgence of Senator Clonan in allowing us to proceed. I thank my colleague from Limerick, Senator Maria Byrne, for raising this important issue and allowing me the opportunity to provide an update on the vacant property refurbishment grant, know as the Croí Cónaithe grant. It is a key action under Housing for All, the Government's policy on housing. The vacant property refurbishment grant was launched in July 2022 under the Croí Cónaithe towns fund. Initially the amounts available were €30,000 for properties vacant for more than two years and €50,000 for derelict properties, and the properties had to have been built prior to 1993. Last May this was changed whereby the properties must have been built prior to 2008. The grants have been increased to €50,000 for properties vacant for two years and to €70,000 for derelict properties. This is very straightforward. Derelict properties must be on the derelict property register or deemed to be derelict in a submission made to the local authority.

Feedback on the grant has been very positive since its launch, with 6,300 applications received and 3,400 applications approved to date. Policy and guidance in respect of the scheme are set out by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, with individual applications processed by local authorities, with the support of the Department and the Housing Agency.

Initially the scheme allowed for 18 months for works to be completed after application approval. Senator Byrne referred to the fact that this is now 13 months. This is to encourage recipients to complete refurbishment works as quickly as possible. To deal with one of the points raised by Senator Byrne, discretion is available to local authorities to extend this in individual cases. If Senator Byrne is aware of cases she should go to the local authority. If there are issues, by all means she should come to the Department and we can look at them and follow up on them. Limerick City and County Council is doing good work and there are good people involved.

Recently the Department published statistics on the vacant property refurbishment grant, including drawdowns, which noted that 100 grants were drawn down to the end of 2023. The total grants approved during that period was 3,100. There is a time lag between grant approval and payment and Senator Byrne referred to stage payments. A review of the terms of the programme is under way which will be completed in the middle of this year. We are considering all aspects, including this factor. The records show that of the 3,166 applications approved to 31 December 2023, a total of 150 were approved over 13 months. The drawdown levels are tracking the levels of initial approvals. We expect many more to come through in 2024.

Senator Byrne asked specifically about Limerick City and County Council. As of 31 December, 275 grant applications had been received with 169 approved, four rejected - I am not certain whether these have been appealed but I can follow up on it - and ten payments issued on completion of works. The remainder of applications are at various stages of assessment by the local authority, including some awaiting requested required documentation from the applicant, such as arranging site inspections. The rate of rejection is very low, which is positive.

Addressing vacancy and maximising the use of existing housing stock is a primary objective of the Government. A key initiative has been the introduction of the vacant property refurbishment grant. The Department will continue to monitor and support its delivery by local authorities throughout the country to bring vacant and derelict properties back into use and breathe new life into our cities, including Limerick city and county. There have been 275 applications with 169 approved, four rejected and ten payments by Limerick City and County Council. I have covered the questions asked by Senator Byrne and obviously she will have follow-up questions.

I thank the Minister of State. It is positive that the scheme is under review. If there were stage payments it would allow people to move into their homes sooner. If they were able to get the money back as they completed the work they would be able to reinvest the money in their homes. This is very welcome. I also welcome the fact that there is discretion around the 13 months. I know from speaking to some people that they were having issues with getting tradespeople and builders to carry out the works. If there are problems I will come back to the Minister of State and the Department. I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive reply.

I thank Senator Byrne. As I have said, we want to see people in Limerick city and county taking up older properties. For those properties that have been vacant for more than two years and built prior to 2008 people will get a grant of €50,000 for either living in the house or renting it. If it is a derelict property they will get a further €20,000 to bring it up to €70,000. If people apply for SEAI grants on top of this they are probably looking at another €25,000. We very much want this to be seen as a way for people to buy their first homes. People might use it as a rental property. People cannot have two properties in the scheme to live in or to rent. It is a fair scheme. I very much take on board the points raised by Senator Byrne. A review is under way. If issues do arise, and I find Limerick City and County Council very good, by all means come back to the Department. This is a scheme we are very excited about. As I have said, there have been more than 6,000 applications to date and we want to see a lot more.

I thank the Minister of State for giving us his time this morning.

Hospital Waiting Lists

The next Commencement matter is in the name of Senator Clonan. It relates to children on waiting lists for complex spinal surgery and limb reconstruction at Children's Health Ireland. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell is not taking this matter.

That is okay. At this stage I invite Senator Clonan to speak on this Commencement matter.

I have tabled this matter to ask the Minister for Health to comment on the fact we have 150 children with limb deformities and serious spinal issues who are not being operated on. I know of at least one child who has become permanently paralysed since we raised this issue prior to Christmas.

It is of great interest that neither the Minister nor one of his representatives has turned up to take a Commencement matter. Is that a precedent? It is an affront to this House and to the 150 children who are in pain as we speak. What makes those children different from other Irish citizens? As I have said before, it is because they are disabled. Because they are disabled, they are allowed to suffer on in pain. Can the Minister of State imagine a child becoming permanently paralysed on the Government's watch, despite it having been made aware of this matter before Christmas? I will not take a response from him. This is not personal; he knows the respect and the esteem in which I hold him, but the Minister has not bothered to turn up here.

On a point of order, I am not here to take this matter. I came in for the previous debate. Out of respect for the House, I remained in the chair.

I appreciate that.

I will not be providing a response. I remained here out of respect for the House.

This is not personal.

I am here out of respect for the House, of which I am a former Member.

I hold the Minister of State in very high esteem and have great respect for him. The fact that the Minister and the Department have not sent anybody here is absolutely emblematic of the contempt in which they hold disabled children and their parents.

The core issue is that two of Ireland's most experienced spinal surgeons came before the Joint Committee on Health last year and called out Children's Health Ireland, CHI, in respect of Temple Street and Cappagh. They said that we have a cohort of children who are not being treated within the therapeutic window. That makes us outliers in both European and international terms. It means that children are undergoing unnecessarily complex spinal surgeries. In that context, my own son was an anaesthetic risk going in for his spinal surgery to the extent that he had to be manually extubated by the anaesthetist or he would not have survived intensive care.

Why are CHI, the Minister and the Department putting us through this pain and trauma? Why are these 150 children being left on waiting lists without surgery? One of them has become permanently paralysed. Is the Minister of State listening to what I am saying? A child has become permanently paralysed. That is completely and utterly unacceptable. The Minister cannot even come in here and take a Commencement matter. He is showing contempt for the House and its processes.

The two senior surgeons to whom I refer basically blew the whistle on the mistreatment and ill-treatment of disabled children. As a consequence, they are now both the target of whistleblower reprisal on the part of the management of CHI. Representatives of CHI came before the joint committee prior to Christmas. Their contributions were not credible. Their position is not tenable. I want to know if the Minister, the Tánaiste or the Taoiseach have confidence in the board of CHI, because I do not. The two surgeons do not, but they have been suspended. The latter was an act of whistleblower reprisal; it fits the classic template. The surgeons came before the committee, pointed out the deficiencies in the system and have now been suspended. As a consequence of their suspension, no surgeries are being carried out on children with very serious spinal issues.

As I said, we have children with limb deformities that are not being addressed. This is completely and utterly intolerable, and the Minister has not even shown up here today. The burden of this whistleblower reprisal is being borne by 150 children. Members of this House ,quite rightly express concern about children in Gaza and Ukraine but 150 Irish children have been left in pain. I am not going to leave the House until the Minister comes here. I am not going to quit this position until the Minister comes in or sends one of his representatives. What is happening is completely disrespectful and is emblematic of how this State treats disabled citizens and disabled children, who are the most vulnerable people in our society. It is an absolute disgrace.

Before I call the Minister of State to reply, I wish to say to the Senator that he has made his point. I think it is unusual. We have no response, even a written response, to circulate to him. The Minister of State has clearly stated his position. He is not scheduled to take this matter. He has indicated that he would like to say a few words. I am going to facilitate the Minister of State for a few moments.

With respect, on what basis?

The Minister of State is not attempting to reply.

Is the Minister of State entitled to speak?

I know the Minister of State wants to speak.

I would like to facilitate the Minister of State's request to speak to the House.

I tabled a Commencement matter to get an informed response from the Department, not to get somebody coming in here and taking the matter by the seat of their pants. I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State, but does he know anything about orthopaedic care?

Senator Clonan, please. I understand your passion.

Children in the Gallery, you go home and tell your parents what a circus this Seanad is. Tell them how we treat disabled children in this country.

Senator Clonan, the Minister of State is on his feet.

This is a civics lesson in how parliamentary democracy is abused.

The Minister of State has a few words to say.

Out of respect for the House and for Senator Clonan, I felt obliged to stay here for this debate. I am not going to respond to the debate. This is an issue I am aware of but I do not have a competence in. It does not come within my brief. I undertake to go back to the Minister to confirm what exactly happened here - I suspect it will also be followed up by the Seanad Office - namely, that the Minister was not present to respond to the Senator's Commencement matter. The Senator is hugely committed to this very worthwhile cause. I will seek to out what the circumstances are in terms of the script. Out of respect for the Senator and the House, I undertake to follow up on the matter.

I thank the Minister of State. Senator Clonan has one minute to respond, as is the process for Commencement matters.

I thank the Minister of State. I have one minute to respond. I appreciate that the Minister of State, out of respect for the process, has undertaken to respond. I want him to know that we have 150 disabled children in need of complex spinal surgery. Children like my son are being allowed to deteriorate because of a vendetta by the board of CHI against two senior surgeons who raised concerns about the mistreatment of Irish children. We have it within our gift to resolve this problem today but the Minister is refusing to do so. It is a rhetorical device to say that this is a matter for CHI. The Minister, Deputy Donnelly, can give authority to CHI or the HSE but he cannot cede responsibility. The Minister is responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in his Department, and these 150 children are on him. He did not show up here today. Nobody from Government, apart from the Minister of State who was here to take a different matter, showed up. Another Minister of State came in to respond to questions about listed buildings for An Post but no Minister will not come in to respond to a Commencement matter on children with disabilities. That is because children with disabilities and disabled citizens in Ireland are considered to have less human value than other citizens. That has been my lived experience and it has been the experience of these families. One of the parents rang me last night, and I could hear his child in bed in pain in the background. She could not go to school, I could hear the mother trying to explain to the child that her daddy was on the phone to a Senator to see if he could get help for them.

Where is the Minister? I am sorry, Acting Chairperson, you are going to have to remove me from this Chamber.

Senator, I am chairing the proceedings.

I do not care. There are 150 children in extreme pain.

Senator Clonan, please take your seat.

I have raised this matter before. Nobody is listening. What does the Acting Chairperson expect me to do?

What if it was your child, Acting Chairperson? What if it was the Minister of State's child? If the Acting Chairperson's child became permanently paralysed-----

Senator Clonan, please take your seat.

-----would he invoke Standing Orders? Would you invoke a one-minute limit on a response?

I am not going-----

I have to operate on the basis of Standing Orders.

You are going to have to remove me from this Chamber.

I ask the Senator to take his seat.

This is emblematic of the way that this Government, and Irish policy, treat disabled people.

I ask Senator Clonan to take his seat.

I will not take my seat. You are going to have to remove me from this Chamber.

I am not removing anybody-----

I am not taking my seat.

-----I will suspend the House.

I cannot call on the Minister of State if the Senator does not take his seat.

This is an absolute disgrace. If anybody looking on or listening to this ever doubted the contempt with which disabled citizens and carers are held in this country, here is the evidence. This is the proof of it.

Senator Clonan, will you please take your seat?

I was outside the gates for 20 years protesting, protests that fell on deaf ears.

I am going to suspend the House.

I got elected by the people to come in here and was given a mandate to raise these issues. When I come into this Chamber, what I have to say falls on deaf ears. They do not even turn up to listen to the matters that are being raised.

Senator Clonan, please take your seat.

I am not raising issues about expenses, listed buildings or rainforests-----

I am suspending the House until 11.30 a.m.

-----I am talking about 150 children who are in pain.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 11.20 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11.30 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 11.20 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.
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