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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Oct 2024

Vol. 303 No. 2

Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee and Remaining Stages

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following:

“Amendment of section 2 of Act of 1990

2. The Act of 1990 is amended by the substitution of the following for section 2:

“Sentence for treason and murder

2. (1) Subject to subsection (2), a person convicted of treason or murder shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life.

(2) Where a person is convicted of treason or murder and the offence for which that person has been convicted occurred before he or she had reached the age of 18 years, the provisions of subsection (1) shall not apply and he or she shall be liable to a maximum penalty of imprisonment for life.”.”.

As I said on Second Stage, in 2023 I drafted a Bill to do the same thing that this Bill does and to maybe go a bit further. I have heard what the Minister of State and Senator Boyhan have had to say on this. I wish to clarify the nature of what I propose to insert into section 2 and the import of what I am suggesting. Section 2 of the 1990 Act simply states, "A person convicted of treason or murder shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life." This amendments proposes the insertion of two subsections, with subsection (1) stating exactly that. Subsection (2) states that subsection (1) shall not apply to the sentencing of a person convicted of murder who is under the age of 18 years when he or she committed the murder but has attained that age on or before the date of such sentencing. I believe the wording contained in my Bill is better because it includes the provisions relating to treason.

It takes the whole of section 2 of the 1990 Act on murder and treason. In both cases it states a person who was a child at the time of committing the offence will not be subject to the mandatory life sentence. There is still a life sentence and everything up to it available to the court but it is not mandatory. This is exactly what the Bill does with regard to murder. I am merely expanding it to include treason.

I have heard what the Minister of State has had to say, and I understand what he says about treason being a constitutional matter. I do not accept what he has said about it being beyond the remit of legislation. Yes this is rushed, although I respectfully submit that I brought this to the Minister's attention in March 2023. I understand the High Court might have more authority than I do in this regard, and might get more notice from Department of Justice officials, however regrettable this might be. This is something that has been knocking around for a while and many criminal practitioners have been raising it. If the principle is correct that if you commit murder as a child you should be sentenced as a child, then the principle equally applies to treason. It does not matter whether or not the High Court specifically addressed the question in its judgment. In fact, the High Court could not address the question in its decision because the case brought to it was one relating to the murder of a person committed by person under 18. It could not possibly address the treason issue.

If I can be perfectly frank, it is a missed opportunity not to include treason in the Bill. It certainly did not require a great feat of drafting if I could do it in my office and it is here now in amendment form. It is something that can be done. Yes, there is a constitutional framework but it does not prevent us from doing it.

Amendment No. 1 deals with section 2 of the 1990 Act in a clearer way than the Bill and deals with the whole of it. It does not cherry pick from it, whereby the Bill will only apply to murder because that is all we have been told to do. We know there is a problem. As I have said, we do not know when the last time a treason case occurred, never mind when the last time a child was charged with treason, but we do not make laws on the basis it may or may not happen. We make laws because of exactly this scenario, where there is a possibility that a child in future or a child now will be charged and convicted of murder and find themselves in a situation where they are immediately subject to a mandatory life sentence no matter what the extenuating circumstances of the case are, no matter what the judge or jury think, or no matter the submissions the lawyers make. To tie the hands of the court in regard to a child in this way is wrong but it is as wrong for treason as it is for murder, which is why I have tabled the amendment.

I certainly hear Senator Ward's frustration. He was very much to the forefront in seeking legislation to address what is an unconstitutional element in our legislation. Senator Ward deserves significant praise for this. He highlighted it to the Department a long time ago. Unfortunately, perhaps through not heeding the Senator's warnings, we have ended up in a situation where urgent legislation must be passed. I expect the Department to address the treason situation quite urgently. Drafting can be done quite quickly but the issue is addressing the potential for unintended consequences through other legislation. Not really apropos of this but I am reminded of a senior counsel when I first started. A client was giving out for being charged so much for a ten-minute application and the senior counsel responded that they could teach the person in an hour how to do the ten-minute application but it would take them 25 years to teach them what to do if something went wrong. There is an element of this. Senator Ward's drafting is excellent but we have to take a precautionary approach and ensure there are no other consequences in the legislation. In this respect, unfortunately at this time I cannot accept the amendment. It is a pertinent amendment and one the Department will study and will table its own amendment in due course.

That senior counsel was clearly not practising criminal law because given the state of the fees in criminal law nobody complains about them. I hear what the Minister of State is saying. I do not agree but so be it. I do not propose to press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 2 agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following:

"Amendment of Children Act 2001

4. The Children Act 2001 is amended, in section 151, by the substitution of the following subsection for subsection (3):

"(3) Subject to subsection (4), the Court shall specify, in its absolute discretion, which portion of a period for which a detention and supervision order is in force shall be spent by the child in detention in a children detention school and which portion under supervision in the community.".".

This proposes an amendment to section 15 of the Children Act 2001 to deal with a situation which is, again, incongruous with regard to certain sentences. The amendment proposes a new subsection (3) and relates to supervision orders. It is something I have included because it was in the Criminal Justice (Juvenile Offenders) Bill I tabled, which went beyond what the court mandated in the case last month. There is another lacuna here and we have an opportunity to fix it. This is with regard to community supervision orders. At present the court's hands are relatively tied on these because essentially the portions have to be 50:50. There is no real reason this should be the case, particularly for children. There is an argument to say we should once again trust to the discretion of our highly trained, expert and impartial judges to decide what portion should be inside and what portion should be outside. It is a sensible suggestion. Arguably, it does not strictly come under the purpose of the Bill but we are all here now, we can make a legislative change that makes sense, and let us do it.

I will frustrate Senator Ward again by saying he makes eminently sensible points on the sentencing options, the principles of which I agree with. The general scheme of the children (amendment) Bill was published in July by the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and will go to pre-legislative scrutiny in the very near future. I agree with Senator Ward. I agree with the sentiment and the drafting of the amendment but, at this moment in time and with the urgency of the Bill, there has not been an opportunity to scrutinise the amendment to allow it to be included. I will get the Department to reach out to Senator Ward so we can be assured the legislation that is needed is done as quickly as possible.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 3, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following:

"Application of section 99 of Criminal Justice Act 2006

4. The provisions of section 99 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 (as amended) shall apply to criminal proceedings involving a person who, at the time the offence was committed, had not reached the age of 18 years, as if the term "imprisonment" were "detention".".

This amendment proposes to amend section 99 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006. It is one of the most vexed pieces of legislation in recent times. It started life as a criminal justice Bill in 2005 and during our colleague Senator McDowell's time as Minister for justice it multiplied in size by four or five times in the Houses and became the Criminal Justice Act 2006. It does a multitude of things but perhaps one of the most significant is in section 99, where it makes statutory provision for suspended sentences. Before this they were done on a common law basis. Section 99 is important. It has been amended five or six times since it passed into law in 2006. I am asking that this be done again. The reason it gets amended so many times is because it was not done right in the first place. I am not specifically inserting a new subsection or changing a subsection. It may well be that the issue I identify here is solved by section 4 and the retrospective action of the Bill we are debating.

Essentially, at present we have a situation where, if a person convicted of murder subsequently appeals, the hands of the appeal court and trial court are tied with regard to suspended sentences. I propose that section 99 will apply to criminal proceedings involving a person who at the time of the offence was committed had not reached the age of 18 years as if the term "imprisonment" were "detention". The reason is that when we put somebody in custody who is not yet 18 we call it detention. When they are over 18 they get moved to prison. There is an important distinction with these things and it is not just semantics. The regime in respect of both is different, even though the closing of St. Patrick's Institution, which I do not quibble with, has blurred the lines in some respects in respect of where we detain young offenders.

If a judge or an appeal court wants to suspend a sentence under section 99 it is difficult, if not impossible, for them to do so when they are dealing with a person under 18 because they cannot suspend a period of imprisonment. They can only suspend a period of detention.

If the sentence is for longer than the length of time between the person's age and their 18th birthday, the court’s hands are tied. The same argument applies to amendment No. 3 as was made in respect of amendment No. 2. We are all here and there is a gap or a problem, so let us fix it.

I recognise there is currently no power to suspend sentences for children and this is being addressed in the general scheme of the children (amendment) Bill 2024 that I previously discussed. As I mentioned, the general scheme was published in July. During the development of proposals in this general scheme, my Department consulted widely on this issue, including with the judiciary. The general consensus of those consultations was that suspended sentences are not appropriate for children. This is because the child is not given the opportunity to deal with their offending behaviour. International children's rights principles highlight the importance of children and youths being able to relate their offending action to its consequences. If a fully suspended sentence is imposed on a child, they may think they got away with it and therefore continue to offend. The Law Reform Commission has expressly recommended against providing for suspended sentences for children. The children (amendment) Bill 2024 will therefore provide for alternatives to suspended sentences.

I reiterate to the Senator my intention to engage with my Department on the drafting of these provisions. For these reasons outlined, I thank the Senator for this considered amendment and regret that I cannot support it. I assure him however that this Bill will address the same objective. It seems somewhat counterintuitive, but at the moment it does appear to be international best practice. Once again, I am happy for my officials to tease out the rationale behind that with the Senator.

There is a temptation to press the amendment to see how the vote goes.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 4 agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

When is it proposed to take Report Stage?

Bill received for final consideration.

When is it proposed to take Fifth Stage?

Question, "That the Bill do now pass", put and agreed to.
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