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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Oct 2024

Vol. 303 No. 9

Social Welfare Bill 2024: Committee and Remaining Stages

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
NEW SECTION

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, between lines 15 and 16, to insert the following:

“Report on employer pay-related social insurance rebate

3. The Minister shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before Dáil Éireann a report on establishing an employer pay-related social insurance rebate scheme to provide support for businesses impacted by the rising minimum wage. The relief relates to full-time employees earning €650 a week or less. The supports should be on a tapered basis ensuring the greatest level of support for each employee on minimum wage and tapering until the support is removed for full-time employees earning over €650 weekly. The PRSI credit an employer would receive for an employee on minimum wage would be approximately 2 per cent of the gross weekly wage. The scheme should support businesses adjusting to minimum wage increases and protect employment while ensuring low pay is not incentivised.”.

This relates to our suggestion to introduce an employer pay-related social insurance rebate. It has a particular resonance given the protest last week by the Restaurants Association of Ireland. Do not get me wrong, I have had my differences with those guys over the years, particularly in respect of employee tips, but we managed to get agreement in the end. There is no doubt that small businesses are struggling, particularly in that sector. This is a sensible proposal from Sinn Féin. We are asking that the Minister

within six months of the passing of this Act, [the Minister] prepare and lay before Dáil Éireann a report on establishing an employer pay-related social insurance rebate scheme to provide support for businesses impacted by the rising minimum wage. The relief relates to full-time employees earning €650 a week or less. The supports should be on a tapered basis ensuring the greatest level of support for each employee on minimum wage and tapering until the support is removed for full-time employees earning over €650 weekly. The PRSI credit an employer would receive for an employee on minimum wage would be approximately 2 per cent of the gross weekly wage. The scheme should support businesses adjusting to minimum wage increases and protect employment while ensuring low pay is not incentivised.

The last sentence is key. Small businesses in particular are really struggling. This seems like a sensible proposition, and one that is urgently needed because there seems to be a worrying level of closures, particularly, but not exclusively, in the restaurant sector. This us a common-sense proposal. I imagine it will command broad support. I ask the Minister to take it on board.

It is true that we need to examine supports for our businesses; it is absolutely crucial. The Minister for enterprise, Deputy Peter Burke, has introduced the national enterprise portal. I want to highlight what local enterprise offices, LEOs, do across the country. I know the LEOs are expanding their remit to support businesses, particularly in the retail and hospitality sector. We have seen funds come through the LEOs, particularly the energy efficiency grants. We see there are now free applications for businesses in retail and hospitality across all sectors to apply for the green for business initiative. As part of that, there are recommendations that come from an expert who comes out to visit a business, which can then apply for the energy efficiency grant. That has been increased from €5,000 to €10,000.

There are also other supports due to issue to businesses which includes microbusinesses, that is, businesses with fewer than ten employees. We see there are challenging circumstances. We know the pressures, and the Minister for public expenditure, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, acknowledged the increase in inflation in his budget speech and this has happened over the past four or five years. Fine Gael in government is looking at how we ensure there are supports in place for businesses to tackle these rising costs we see ahead of us.

I have made this point a few times on including commitments to producing reports in primary legislation. While I understand why the amendments have been put in, the social welfare legislation is complex already and it is best if we do not put requests for reports into legislation. The actuarial review of the Social Insurance Fund published in March 2023 is a very detailed and comprehensive report that examines and fully costs a wide range of scenarios. One of its findings was the fund will experience significant long-term sustainability challenges, particularly the ageing of our population. The need to take action now is highlighted by the ESRI and the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. In that context, the Government agreed to a gradual, incremental increase in all PRSI rates including employee, employer and self-employed from 2024 to 2028.

I spoke on Second Stage about the provision that will benefit employers with full-time employees earning the national minimum wage by ensuring the employer is liable for the lower rate of employer PRSI, which currently is 8.9%, rather than the higher rate of 11.5%. This saves an employer €616 in PRSI compared with it paying the higher rate. I am satisfied the approach decided by the Government in relation to PRSI over the next number of years achieves a fair balance between addressing the long-term sustainability of the Social Insurance Fund without unduly impinging on the cost of doing business in Ireland. As a result, I am not accepting this amendment to prepare a report on the concept of a tapered PRSI credit on employment PRSI.

As Senator Dolan said, there will be a €4,000 energy grant by Christmas for the retail and hospitality sectors to cover the higher cost of energy bills. That will be of some assistance to businesses. There will be significant tax changes that will help small businesses and the self-employed, including the changing of the VAT thresholds to allow small businesses and the self-employed keep more of their own money.

There are other supports there and I will not accept this amendment.

I waited to listen to the Minister's response before I came in. It is a well-intentioned amendment and what we are all trying to do and what we all need to try to do is to look at why so many businesses are under so much pressure. Their margins are getting tighter and tighter and it is not just that the minimum wage goes up, everybody else's wages have to go up because the minimum wage has gone up, so there ends up being a larger wage bill and increasing the levels of PRSI contributions based on a larger wage bill from the employer side.

It is unusual that Senator Gavan is on the same side as the Restaurants Association of Ireland, RAI, I get that. It is good that he is at the same time. As a House, as a Parliament, as Ministers, as Government and as a State, we need to ensure whatever way we do it works. Restaurants can be busy, and I do not mean they are busy fools, but they are very busy and they are not making any money. If they close, we have issues with employment. We are also losing all of these facilities from various towns, villages and cities all over Ireland.

Therefore, we do need to do things. I appreciate why the Minister cannot produce the report requested but believe the Government needs to consider this matter further.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 3 agreed to.
NEW SECTIONS

Amendments Nos. 2 to 4, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together, by agreement.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following:

"Report on introducing a pay-related carers benefit payment

4. The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on introducing a pay-related carers benefit payment for those people who have to give up work to care for someone. This would ensure that a carer does not see their income fall off a cliff edge and that they see their income protected and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within 1 month of the passing of this Act.".

This amendment calls for a report on pay-related carer's benefit payments. The Minister understands why we are calling for reports: we are prevented from calling for anything that would put a charge on the Exchequer. Amendment No. 2 states:

The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on introducing a pay-related carers benefit payment for those people who have to give up work to care for someone. This would ensure that a carer does not see their income fall off a cliff edge and that they see their income protected and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within 1 month of the passing of this Act.

All of us have met people who have had to give up work at quite sudden notice to look after a loved one. The huge drop in income is a massive issue, so the proposal is very sensible. The Department would benefit from the proposed report in determining what can be done to counteract what is occurring. As the Minister may know, Sinn Féin is committed to a pay-related carer's benefit payment, which would prevent this cliff edge. The maximum payment would be €450, with a tapering down of the payment every six months. Many people find themselves having to stop working because of the need to care for someone, and they see a significant fall in their income as a result. Therefore, it is important that there be a pay-related carer's benefit scheme similar to the pay-related scheme for jobseekers.

Again, I do not propose to accept amendments that put requests for reports into legislation.

On the pay-related carer's benefit payment, I recently signed a commencement order confirming that the new jobseeker's pay-related benefit scheme would be available from 31 March 2025. The priority is to launch this scheme, and the Government has been clear that this experience should be used to inform future decisions regarding pay-related schemes. I am delighted that this will kick in next March. It will make a big difference to people who suddenly find themselves unemployed and who have a long working history. It follows that the continued extension of a pay-related benefit approach to other schemes, such as the carer's benefit scheme, will need detailed analysis, including on impacts on PSRI rates. This would not be possible within a month. It is the same officials who will have to deliver the carer's benefit for the self-employed. There is a lot to happen in social protection between now and Christmas. As promised in the Dáil, I will ensure that a report is completed in six months. Is that okay?

Second, on the issue of bringing forward increases in the carer's allowance means-test threshold, all budget measures have been given specific dates to enable their implementation. Adjusting means thresholds requires individual claim reviews and an adjustment of claims in payment. Changes to the means thresholds announced on budget day usually take place mid-year and it was only last July that we increased the thresholds. Lead-in time is required, so there is not much need to produce the report the requested.

On abolishing the carer's allowance means test, I can inform the Senator, as I told him earlier, that the interdepartmental working group is considering the means-testing of family carers. The group will report its findings by the end of the year. Given that this work is already under way, there is no point in producing another report on the matter. A conservative estimate is an additional cost of about €600 million per annum, based on the current claim. Based on what is in the census figures, the additional cost could go up to €2 billion per year, which is a significant amount of money.

I was the first Minister in 14 years to increase the carer's disregard and I have nearly doubled it at this stage. It now stands at up to €625 for a single person and €1,250 for a couple. At the request of carers and their representative organisations, I have also increased the capital disregard. Carers with a spouse or partner can now have savings or capital of up to €100,000 before it impacts their payment. We are all aware of the key role carers play in our society. We have come a long way but there is more to be done in this area. We will continue to work with the organisations to make more progressive changes as we go forward.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 3, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following:

“Report on introducing the proposed changes to carers allowance means test thresholds from 1 January 2025

4. The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on introducing the changes to the income disregards from 1 January 2025 as opposed to July 2025.”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 3, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following:

“Report on abolishing the means test for carers allowance

4. The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on abolishing the means test for carers allowance and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within 1 month of the passing of this Act.”

Amendment put and declared lost.
Sections 4 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTIONS

Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 4, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following:

“Report on extending parent’s leave and benefit

8. The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on extending the full duration of parent’s leave and benefit by 4 weeks and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within 1 month of the passing of this Act.”

This amendment calls for a report on extending parent's leave and benefit. We are asking that the Minister would prepare and lay a report before the Houses of Oireachtas on extending the full duration of parent's leave and benefit by four weeks. That report should be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within one month of the passing of this Act. This is something we should all be able to agree on, namely a further progressive move relating to parental leave. The target of 13 weeks is something we should aspire to and achieve. As the Minister knows, this leave is currently nine weeks. Admittedly it has been improved in recent years and we acknowledge that. However, in our alternative budget, which was costed by the Department of Finance, we extended the leave to 13 weeks so that parents can spend more time with their child in the first two years of his or her life. That is something to which we would all aspire.

Amendment No. 6, as I mentioned in my Second Stage contribution, calls for a report on introducing a parental bereavement leave and benefit scheme. The reality at the moment is just cruel. If someone loses a child, he or she effectively has to be back at work after three days. At a time we have a surplus of €24 billion, surely to God we could do something on this. This is not something that Sinn Féin has just come up with in the past month. We have raised this in our three most recent alternative budgets. Effectively we are calling for a parental bereavement scheme to be introduced to give parents two week's pay so that in the awful situation where they have lost a child, they can actually get that payment for two weeks to give them some time during that horrific early mourning period. Frankly, it is something that should have been addressed years ago. I ask the Minister, at the very least, to allow this report to be prepared so that whoever is in government next can act on it.

I support these proposals by Senators Gavan and Warfield. In the context of the EU directive on work-life balance, the minimum for parental leave is two months or nine weeks. Nine weeks is the narrowest interpretation of two months. Of course, that is supposed to be the absolute minimum standard but Ireland should be doing better than the minimum required standard under the directive. We should look to do better on parent's leave. It is also something that would go some way towards supporting greater gender equality in the State. I also support the very compassionate and sensible proposal in respect of parental bereavement leave.

I will speak to the two amendments together. Regarding extending parents' leave and benefit, the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has lead responsibility for parents' leave policy. I have responsibility for making the payments. Parents' leave and benefit are available to eligible parents within the first two years following the birth or adoption of a child. An extension to parents' leave and benefits by two weeks to nine weeks per parent was introduced from 1 August 2024. I cannot ask my officials to do a report on an area where I do not have policy responsibility. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth would have to do that report.

Regarding introducing a parental bereavement leave and benefit scheme, it would be acknowledged by all in the House that a stillbirth is a tragedy and a profound loss to a family. The Government recognises the need to support parents who find themselves in these tragic circumstances and it is important that people know there is already support available through the maternity and paternity benefit schemes to parents who experience a stillbirth. I recently brought forward legislation that changes the definition of a "stillbirth" to include a pregnancy loss that occurs after the 23rd week of pregnancy or where the birth weight is at least 400 g. These changes took effect from 16 September this year. Following a stillbirth, a mother is entitled to her full maternity leave and benefit as if that baby had arrived. The payments are for 26 weeks and in the case of paternity benefit for two weeks. Assuming all of the other qualifying conditions are met, both payments are payable in the case of a stillbirth any time after the 23rd week of pregnancy. That is from the beginning of the 24th week or where the birth weight is at least 400 g. The Senator will appreciate why I do not want to do another report on this issue.

I thank the Minister for the response. To be clear, the Sinn Féin proposal includes the awful situation of stillbirth but goes way beyond that. It would benefit parents who lose a child under the age of 18 years, including following a stillbirth and during pregnancy, irrespective of the length of their current employment. We all know people who have lost children, one of the most awful things to happen to anyone. It is entirely unreasonable to expect a parent to go back to work the same week. It is not right in any way. It is something that needs to be addressed.

As I said, we have asked the Minister to address this for the past three years. The most I can ask for, unfortunately, is a report. I genuinely cannot understand why the Government has not acted on this because I cannot imagine anyone in this room would object to a proposal to give two weeks' paid leave in the awful circumstances where a person loses a child. It is a reasonable proposal and one that should command broad cross-party support.

The amendment the Senator proposed states that the Minister shall lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on introducing a parental leave and benefit scheme to those parents who experience a stillbirth. I have said that in the case of parents who have a stillbirth after the twenty-third week of pregnancy or where the birth rate is at least 400 g, they will get their full 26 weeks of maternity leave.

I acknowledge that. The broader point we made in our pre-budget submission for the past three years is that there should be parental bereavement leave for parents who lose a child under the age of 18 and it should consist of two weeks' pay. We think it has tremendous merit and we ask the officials and whoever comes after the Minister to consider this strongly as a proposal.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 4, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following:

“Report on introducing a parental bereavement leave and benefit scheme

8. The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on introducing a parental bereavement leave and benefit scheme to those parents who experience a stillbirth, set at the weekly rate in line with current maternity and paternity rates for a period of 2 weeks.”.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Sections 8 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTION

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 8, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:

“Report on extending fuel allowance eligibility to working family payment recipients

14. The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on introducing eligibility of the fuel allowance payment to recipients of the working family payment and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within 1 month of the passing of this Act.”.

In this amendment, we ask for a report on extending the fuel allowance eligibility to working family payment recipients. The amendment states:

The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on introducing eligibility of the fuel allowance payment to recipients of the working family payment and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within 1 month of the passing of this Act.

The Minister will understand the motivation behind the amendment, given that energy costs are still crippling families. Sinn Féin would target increased accessibility to the scheme for lower income working families with children by ensuring that families on low incomes would be eligible for fuel allowance by extending the payment to working family payment recipients. We do not understand why low income families are still being excluded.

Senators will be aware that fuel allowance is paid to social welfare recipients such as pensioners and people with disabilities in recognition of their long-term financial dependence on social welfare payments. People on long-term social welfare payments are unlikely to have additional resources of their own and are more vulnerable to poverty, including energy poverty. The working family payment is a weekly tax repayment available to employees with children. We need to bear in mind that a person in receipt of the working family payment can continue to receive the payment for 52 weeks, even if their income increases. I am awaiting a previously requested report on the provision of fuel allowance for those in receipt of the working family payment. I will make that available as soon as it is completed. I expect to have it within the next number of weeks.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 14 agreed to.
SECTION 15
Question proposed: "That section 15 stand part of the Bill".

I knew any amendments to this section would not be eligible because they affect money. I am sorry I was not here for the Second Stage debate. I wish the Minister well in her next endeavours.

I have serious concerns about this section that I hope the Minister can address. As I understand it, the section will increase the amount that will be cut from not only jobseeker's benefit but jobseeker's allowance. In that context, these are significant cuts. For example, there will be cuts of €44 and €90, and €120 or €147, as opposed to €99 or €120. The Minister can clarify the position.

I understand that in respect of jobseeker's allowance, we are talking about persons who have been means-tested. They need this money to live. Their families need this money to live and get by. It is not pin money or bonus money; this is survival money. It is extremely concerning that the question of non-co-operation, which can be quite subjectively interpreted, now arises.

In the previous Oireachtas, I sat on the social protection committee and we produced a report on JobPath. Significant concerns were raised in respect of personal progression plans and the payment model, where contracted private companies were required to have deliverables in respect of moving people off the register and into particular kinds of employment, and the pressure put on individuals to sign up to personal progression plans which, in some cases, were not appropriate.

The Minister will remember that when we discussed other legislation, I raised concerns around how the language was framed. Even on the new payment, for example, some of the language suggests that you would accept almost any employment or training opportunity. There are two sections of the Bill that I am going to speak to, but this one is really important.

The Senator missed the opportunity.

I hope the Minister will address the fact. I am very concerned, especially given the previous record of concerns about how personal progression plans are applied, that we may have situations whereby we see cuts that affect people's ability to feed their family and keep their houses warm. I say that simply because the stakes can become very high. There is a very significant power imbalance between a person who is unemployed, for example, and what might be a commercial company that says it wants a person to take a certain job. We have tried to adapt language with the Minister previously to ensure there would be a reasonable offer and that there would be another offer. There are situations, for example, where people who become unemployed in January get pushed into a training course in March, but if they waited until the following September they could go back to college, which might be what is suitable for them. There have been serious concerns about people being pushed and feeling powerless and that they must accept inappropriate employment or training opportunities. We know that just creates a cycle where they fall out of that opportunity and then they come back in again. I am concerned that the stakes are being set too high and that we will end up with a whole category of persons – those who are on jobseeker's allowance – who feel they cannot say "No" to any suggestion in that regard. They will not be in a position where they are free to make the best choices for themselves in terms of education, training or employment because the food on their table could, literally, be at stake.

I am not going to allow the Senator to reply because in fairness we have discussed it and we did indicate that. I will ask the Minister to reply very briefly. I will be fair to Senator Higgins.

The reduction applied to jobseekers who do not engage with the Department of Social Protection's range of supports to get back to employment will increase to €90 from January 2025. The current rate of €44 has been in existence since 2011. Senator Higgins must acknowledge that the social welfare rates have gone up considerably since then.

The aim is to prevent unemployed people drifting further from the labour market and losing the skills that enable earnings progression. We know that the way out of poverty is to get employment. The payment will be immediately restored as soon as the person re-engages.

Recently, the labour market has been performing at historic levels, with full employment, and a number of records have been achieved over successive quarters. We hear every day about people who cannot get staff. In light of the conditions and the labour market outlook, it is important that individuals are supported and encouraged in their efforts to seek employment. That is what we are about here. We want to help people to find suitable employment. All they have to do is engage with the Department of Social Protection and Intreo employment services. There is a range of supports to help people get back to work, whether it is further education, training, upskilling or work placements. That is in addition to programmes such as community employment and Tús. A lot of supports are available to help people get employment. The payment will be immediately restored as soon as the person re-engages.

The review of JobPath found that people supported by it secured employment for longer and had more earnings than people not supported by the scheme.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 16 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTIONS

Amendment No. 8 has been ruled out of order, as it does not relate to the subject matter of the Bill.

Amendment No. 8 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 10, after line 35, to insert the following:

Report on extending Jobseeker’s Transitional Payment

19. The Minister shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, lay a report before both Houses of the Oireachtas on options to extend access to the Jobseeker’s Transitional Payment until a youngest child reaches 18 years of age.”.

I will be brief in regard to both of these amendments. They are issues that we have touched on before. I urge the Minister to reexamine the jobseeker's transitional payment. The current situation is that lone parents are treated unequally within the social protection system. Lone parents are entitled to the one-parent family payment until a child is seven and then from the ages of seven to 14, they are entitled to the jobseeker's transitional payment, which again requires that they engage, as the Minister mentioned, and look at potential options, but it removes the requirement for full-time availability for work of 40 hours a week. The jobseeker transitional payment is appropriate in that it encourages attachment to the labour market or training, and it requires that kind of engagement. It has options for how to build workplace attachment during that period, but it does not have the very blunt tool of full-time availability, which is somewhat a legacy of the fact that our entire social welfare system was formed very much on a single-male breadwinner model with a usually female carer at home, unacknowledged and unrewarded. We mentioned the income disregard for carer's allowance. There is still a limit of 18.5 hours that one can work. The income disregard there may be increased but the number of hours in which one can work is still quite constrained.

Let us compare a lone-parent family with two children and another family with two children where there are two parents. The two-parent family can have somebody full-time at home until the child is 18. That is covered by the social welfare code because there is a qualified adult increase, which allows for the social welfare payment one party receives - usually but not always the male – to have a qualified adult increase in recognition that there is an adult in the house who is doing other work, usually caring work, and then there are the two children. They can have somebody caring for a child up to the age of 18. It is not a high income to live on, but they have that option. A lone parent who also has the children, but who does not have the ancillary support of the second parent, is required to be full-time in the workplace. Many lone parents choose to be in the workplace when a child is 14, but the teenage years can sometimes be the most difficult years for some children. It can be a time when parents who work need to be able to leave at 4 p.m. They might want to work a 25-hour or 30-hour week and be at home when the child comes home. Those are really key years. The children cannot just be put in a crèche when they are 14 or 15.

This is an example of the inequality right through from the Constitution to here, whereby the work a lone parent does is given less value, support and weighting in the social welfare system than in a two-parent family. There is a fundamental inequality. A two-parent family has the option to have somebody at home at 4 p.m., when a child leaves school but a one-parent family does not. They are required to be available for full-time work. It is a very small change that I do not believe would cost a huge amount. I do not believe it would even be taken up by every lone parent, but simply extending the jobseeker transitional from 14 to 18 would say we acknowledge that the parent is still parenting until the child is 18.

It would say that we want lone parents to engage in opportunities in employment and training and education, but we are not going to insist on the full-time availability being a condition of the parent getting any money at all from the State. I believe it would be appropriate and would fix what was an extremely bad decision initially that had knock-on effects for many years. It would also go a step towards improving the equality of families in the State.

Amendment No. 10 relates to pay-related benefit, which has been referenced here. I have a concern, and I flagged this with the Minister when the legislation on pay-related benefit was coming through. I still share this concern. I believe it is significant. As I understand it currently, if a person loses his or her job, then he or she can access the pay-related benefit that may give a higher replacement rate but he or she will not get qualified child or qualified adult payments attached to that pay-related benefit. Again, this may have been changed but this is as I understand it currently. The person will instead be directed to go to the jobseeker's benefit and get that, which intrinsically is often set at a lower rate, the standard rate as we had it, but it allows for an increase for a qualified child or qualified adult. It is very important if we have this pay-related benefit scheme that it should also have - just like jobseeker's benefit - access to the qualified child or qualified adult payments. Otherwise, fundamentally we are saying that when single people lose their job we want to make sure they have a replacement income and it becomes a situation where the pay-related benefit only makes sense for the single persons on high incomes, and a particular imaginary kind of worker lots of whom are in the tech sector and others of a particular age. These are getting a high replacement rate when they become unemployed and everybody else is effectively subsidising that. For families it will not make sense to get the pay-related benefit if qualified child payments are not included and qualified adult payments are not included. Effectively we end up with a two-tier system in which families are disadvantaged. For families it becomes a matter of "Well you have to settle for just the jobseeker's benefit plus the qualified adult and child payments". The person without children or a single person is in a situation with less responsibility, and probably in that context with less serious concerns, although I am not saying they do not have serious concerns because every individual has their own concerns. However, a lot of the narrative we have had around the idea of this pay-related benefit is that we do not want households having a plummet in income that leaves them unable to cover the basics.

As I understood when the Bill passed, it was not envisaged at the time that qualified child or qualified adult payments would be available for recipients of the pay-related benefit scheme. Is there a pathway towards that? Is there a gender analysis and an equality analysis around who is benefiting from the pay-related scheme? Is it predominantly men who are benefiting or predominantly women? Is there a gender analysis of that? Is it mainly benefiting individuals or are families consistently choosing, and feeling they have to choose, to go to job seekers benefit instead? This is a key piece. It is an anomaly because when we originally talked about the idea of pay-related replacement it came in as a very worthy case. I was glad that the Government did the right thing around domestic violence leave and the idea that we would have full replacement rates and higher replacement rates. A very strong case has been made for the idea of having a better replacement rate for parental leave, for example, or other forms of leave that would incentivise people to take that leave. It is family-friendly policies that have pushed the idea of a replacement rate being increased but I feel in the design of this scheme it specifically may disadvantage families.

This amendment comes down to cost for families. We are talking about the challenges for families and in particular for lone parents. We know that lone parents are one of the most vulnerable groups out there. In this budget we can see something that is quite strong, which is the measure around cost-of-living payments, especially those that will happen at the end of October. There are 1.3 million people who will benefit from those cost-of-living payments come 28 October. That bonus is very similar to the Christmas bonus. I also welcome the double child payments that will happen in November and in December. Looking outside of that - and I have spoken about it already - I believe that hot school meals, for example, is one element that will be a huge benefit for families looking after young children. Never mind parents not having the extra burden in the morning of trying to get the meals ready, which Senator Ahearn would speak to, it is probably also to do with the costs, which are so expensive. All of these measures are to support families and to support lone parents, and especially when children are so young. We are looking at early childcare supports as well. This raft of measures is there to support families. There is not one particular measure that is a solution. The Government is looking at all areas. This is a whole-of-government approach to say, "Here is a suite of measures that are there to support you as a parent, as a young mum, as a young dad, as a single parent. Here is how this Government is here to support you in this time". Those measures we are looking at are to benefit the most vulnerable in our society and in our communities. It is crucial to see that they are very welcome payments, and particularly around the child benefit increase of €12. The other support measures, such as free school books and the hot school meals, are all ways to reduce costs for young families as well.

Sinn Féin supports the two amendments from Senator Higgins. There are issues of fundamental equality and fairness here. Senator Higgins explained it very well and they are worthy of support.

I refer to what Senator Dolan said. A one-parent family with two children aged 4 and 6 will benefit from an additional €2,424 per annum as a result of this budget. They get the Christmas bonus, they get the extra €12 weekly rate increase from January, and they will get the child support payment, which has been increased - for two children under 12 they will get an extra €8 a week. The child support payment lump sum is €200 in total, which is €100 per child. With the one-family payment and the child support payment they will get the October bonus of €324. They will also qualify for the fuel allowance of a €300 lump sum. The two double payments for child benefit will amount to a total of €560. That will be paid in November and December, which is a total of €560. We have looked at how we can support one-parent families in this budget.

With the jobseeker's transitional payment there is a number of income supports available for lone parents once their entitlement to the one-parent family payment ceases. This includes the jobseeker's transitional payment, which is a provision under the jobseeker's allowance scheme where the youngest child is aged 7 to 13, inclusive, and the jobseeker's allowance payment which may be paid to lone parents where the youngest child is aged 14 or over. The working family payments are also available to lone parents who are working 38 or more hours per fortnight and that scheme is payable where a person has a child up to age 18, or age 22 if in full-time education. Lone parents currently on jobseeker's transitional payment can transfer to work on family payment where he or she satisfies the hours-worked requirement and the other scheme conditions.

Lone parents currently on jobseeker's transitional payment can transfer to the working family payment where they satisfy the hours worked requirement and the other scheme conditions. The working family payment and back-to-work family dividend can be paid concurrently. Extending the jobseeker's transitional payment beyond the 14th birthday of a person's youngest child would have the effect of delaying the interaction of affected claimants with the Department's Intreo service. The aim of the approach is to reduce long-term welfare dependency and associated poverty among lone parents and to improve their access to education, training and employment support services through Intreo. Improved access to these services will enhance the skills set and job readiness of these people, thereby assisting with their transition into the workforce and their subsequent attainment of financial independence.

For these reasons, there are no plans to increase the age of the children for which jobseeker's transitional payment can be paid. In fact, a report was done by the ESRI in 2022 which examined the impact of the reforms on the labour market outcomes of lone parents. It found that the reforms led to an increase in the average hours worked by lone parents of between two and five hours per week. Lone parents impacted by the policy were 13% more likely to be working. There was an increase of household income of between and 9% and 12% and an increase of between 23% and 29% in earnings from employment. The policy was associated with a 10% to 14% reduction in the poverty rate of lone parents.

On the issue of pay-related benefit, Senators will be aware that in line with the legislation that recently progressed through the Oireachtas, the new pay-related scheme will be an individualised payment specifically linked to income. Pay-related benefit means that the amount of a payment a person receives is directly linked to prior earnings. Nothing else is taken into consideration. It is a percentage of prior earnings up to a maximum of €450. A person's salary is not linked to his or her household composition. This was the approach taken for the Covid pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, where the rate was aligned with that of a couple in receipt of a jobseeker's payment. The CSO survey on living conditions in 2021 showed that the PUP scheme had a very positive impact on poverty rates at that time.

The vast majority of claims under the existing jobseeker's benefit scheme are in respect of the personal rate only, with less than 5% of current recipients in receipt of an adult dependant allowance. The current scheme structure is not appropriate for the vast majority of claimants. The majority of claimants who qualify for pay-related benefit will receive a higher payment than they would have received on jobseeker's and for people who may be better off on a payment based on household composition, the means-tested jobseeker's allowance scheme will remain an option.

The answer the Minister has given, with respect, is simply to say exactly what I have said. She has told us what the policy is but the point is the equality issues. She mentioned that only 5% of claimants are receiving a qualified adult payment but how many are receiving qualified child payments? It would be useful to have that percentage in order to be clear on the number of persons who receive qualified child payments as part of their jobseeker's payment at the moment. They are the people for whom it will not make sense to get this pay-related payment. We have a situation where most of our social protection is not individualised, although there is a case for individualisation in certain areas. We do not individualise when it comes to means testing for the carer's allowance, for example. We do not individualise when people are giving care and take account of the fact that they do not have an income because they are caring. We count their partner's income in that context. We do not individualise for something like means testing for carers, where it would have a real impact. It affects financial independence because carers are told that because someone in their household is earning money, there will be no money in respect of them and they effectively become dependent on another household member. They do not have access to independent income to do the work that they are doing which supports the State. We do not individualise there but we are individualising here, in this very narrow space. We have to ask who is impacted by this. Actually, the people who are impacted by the lack of individualisation when it comes to something like carer's allowance are in the same position as those who are impacted by the fact that their household's needs will not be reflected in this pay-related payment.

Of course people do better if they get a higher payment. It is great to get €450 instead of €200. It is great to be getting a higher income but we have to ask questions in the context of the State's resources and particularly the obligation on the State to gender- and equality-proof its policies. We must bear in mind that all of our measures are meant to be gender- and equality-proofed. We must ask not whether a policy is a nice thing but whether it is the best thing. In that context, there is a question about those who are in households that rely on the top-up that comes from qualified child payments. I acknowledge that qualified child payments do incredible work. There have been increases in the rates of such payments which I have praised the Minister and others for because they are really important. The payments acknowledge that when people have 13-year-olds or 14-year-olds, it costs money. However, if we have a situation where a better payment is going towards certain categories of workers, we must gender-proof and equality-proof that. All of our money is being pooled together but is everybody paying into the fund so that single workers in higher income brackets can have a better percentage of their previous salary and can continue with their lifestyle while households with two, three or four children are told to apply for the means-tested jobseeker's allowance because the pay-related benefit does not make sense for them? Are we saying that some people - families in this case - can manage on less whereas other people need to have their lifestyle maintained? It goes against the logic that is used in much of the narrative around this pay-related benefit. Originally the idea of higher replacement rates was something to be applied in the context of something like parental leave because it would encourage a smoother transition when families are going through life changes. However, by making this into an individualised payment, we are in danger of creating an inequality and a dynamic where we end up with a two-tier social welfare system. That is a danger that needs to be addressed. It is a fundamental problem.

On the second amendment, it is not the case that it is only when people move off jobseeker's transitional payment that they can engage with Intreo. Jobseeker's transitional payment requires engagement when people's children are aged from seven to 14. There is already contact with Intreo. People can be on the jobseeker's transitional payment and apply for the back-to-education scheme or for training. All of that is available to people on the jobseeker's transitional payment, as it should be, but the difference lies in the requirement for full-time availability. The Minister mentioned the working family payment which is payable for up to 38 hours per fortnight. However, the legislation governing jobseeker's allowance requires people to be available, not for 38 hours in a fortnight, but for 80 hours. That is what is required.

I want to double back on that earlier change in section 15 for a moment. Let us say a person's case gets sent up to a company like Turas Nua, or one of the others, which is just clocking through its numbers. Turas Nua does not see a jobseeker with a 14-year-old child at home. It has to get as many people into full-time employment as it can; that is its job.

It might state Tesco – I should not pick out a company – is offering a job of 40 hours per week shelf-stacking or whatever and you are asked to take one. If you say you cannot, it can say you are not engaging, and then your payment gets cut. That is a circle. We will all end up hearing the anecdotes and affected people will end up in our constituency clinics. The point is that this is set up to happen given how the legislation and the parameters are currently framed. Of course, people end up having more hours worked because they have to have more hours worked to get their payments. To say the system is successful because people are working more hours is a tautology as they are required to work more hours. In fact, we do not know whether this is right for every household. Will a mother end up feeling she had to take a job with shifts that did not suit, meaning she did not have contact with her child in the evenings when there was no other parent at home? The Minister did not address the fundamental inequality between two-parent households and one-parent households in terms of who is there for teenagers.

I thank the Minister for her engagement. We have had constructive engagement on other issues over the years but I feel the issues under discussion are fundamental gender and equality issues that need to be addressed, that are still not being seen by the system and that have genuine impacts on people's lives.

The current model is working in increasing lone-parent participation rates and therefore reducing poverty. The report I referred to, the ESRI report of 2022, points out that when people engage, they have better outcomes. The Department adopts a reasonable approach to reducing jobseeker rates. People are informed twice. If they have a reasonable reason as to why they cannot engage – childcare requirements comprise one – it is considered. Once people engage, that is basically it. If people engage, we want to work with them, help them and support them. If we can get them back into work, there are usually much better outcomes in the long term.

Regarding the pay-related benefit, both adults can claim any social welfare assistance payment in their own right and they do not need to be qualified adults. The jobseeker's allowance remains an option for a small number of larger households. If you would be better off on the jobseeker's allowance, you have that option. Ireland is one of the few countries where pay-related benefit is not in place. The changes will kick in from the end of March 2025.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 10, after line 35, to insert the following:

“Report on Pay-Related Benefit

19. The Minister shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, lay a report before both Houses of the Oireachtas on options to extend access to qualified child and adult payments for recipients of the Jobseeker's Pay-Related Benefit Scheme.”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 10, after line 35, to insert the following:

“Report to ensure people aged 65 years of age have the right to retire on a State pension contributory

19. The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on restoring the option on the right to retire for those aged 65 years of age on a State pension contributory and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within 1 month of the passing of this Act.”.

As the Minister has acknowledged, we are restricted to asking for reports. Through amendments Nos. 11 and 12, we are asking for two reports. The first is to ensure people aged 65 years of age have the right to retire on a State contributory pension. The amendment requests that

The Minister shall prepare and lay a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas on restoring the option on the right to retire for those aged 65 years of age on a State pension contributory and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection within 1 month of the passing of this Act.

As the Minister will know, the issue of pension age was huge during the last general election campaign. I pay tribute to our brothers and sisters in the trade union movements who led the campaign to stop the increase of the pension age to 67. It was a successful campaign, and quite rightly so. Sinn Féin firmly believes people should have the option to retire at 65. Equally, they should have the option to continue to work if they are fit and well. We believe the option is important because we know so many people affected, including those in construction and retail and those who spend 40 or 50 years of their lives on their feet doing hard manual labour. The truth of the matter is that many of them are not able to work beyond the age of 65. They should not be punished for that or to take a lesser payment for it. Instead, their working lives should be recognised and they should be entitled to a full pension.

We need to take a more enlightened approach here. There are countries in Europe that recognise that construction workers, for example, should retire earlier because their bodies are literally worn out. I have a young son who is doing the second year of his apprenticeship in plumbing and I can already see the physical toll construction sites have taken on him in the past couple of years. The right to retire at 65 is important. It is an issue of fairness. Not all of us work in offices or have the luxury of not having to work extremely hard doing physical labour every day. Those who do such labour should have the right to retire at 65. I am asking for a report on that.

The second amendment, amendment No. 12, seeks a report on establishing a social welfare adequacy commission. This has been a key theme in our party for some time. The amendment states:

The Minister shall carry out a review on establishing a social welfare adequacy commission in order to ensure social welfare rates meet a Minimum Essential Standard of Living (MESL) to study the effect that adequacy of social welfare rates could have on addressing poverty levels and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection ahead of Budget 2026.

This is just a very good, progressive measure. The report would be very worthwhile.

We all acknowledge that the Covid crisis saw an acknowledgement by the Government that social welfare rates were not where the needed to be. In fairness, it acted then. It had to and it did. However, there is a bigger job of work. It is very reasonable to request a report outlining what the levels need to be. Obviously, we would work co-operatively to establish those levels over time.

I will be very brief. I support the amendments. The work on minimum essential standards of living involves some of the best and most solid and significant research that has been supported by the Department of Social Protection. Given that 2,000 goods are examined in the process, it is probably one of the best examples of addressing the cost of living, rather than some of the broader brush strokes often used. It is significant and represents a really good test to apply to social welfare. It would also be very good to apply it to the adequacy of the minimum wage. At a minimum, it is a very useful test for social welfare payments.

In supporting amendment No. 11, I believe that while the age of retirement is one issue, a fundamental issue, which should be one for our colleagues in the unions and elsewhere during the next election campaign, is that if there is an increase to 40 years of contributions, huge swathes of the population of the State will end up on a reduced-rate pension. Historically, this has happened to women, with a very negative impact.

The move from 20 years to 30 years was well signalled, but moving to a requirement to have 40 years of contributions to get the full State pension will force people to work into their 70s. Age is one element but we do not want an indirect measure, through an unreasonable doubling of the contribution requirement, that has the same effect in terms of forcing people to work. We do not want to go the route we see in the United States, for example, where people in their 70s must collect trolleys simply to build enough credits to have a basic income.

In my local area, the community employment scheme and the rural social scheme have been extremely important to people in their 60s. The pandemic has had an impact on volunteering or on people getting involved in their communities.

There has been a bit more of an increase in isolation and people are not getting back involved in social activities. The community employment scheme and rural social scheme are ways and measures in which people can get involved. On community activities, we talked about community centres which crisscross both of the Minister's portfolios. What she has done on those schemes has been important and extremely beneficial. It is about encouraging engagement in our local communities by volunteers. That has an impact. I see people who have recently retired are active and getting involved in so many activities. We are so much richer for people with their experience, talents and skillsets from their types of employment, which they are able to give. I know people in their 70s who are going back to college and doing degrees and PhDs. It is great to see that because education is for all ages.

One of the areas we lack in Ireland is in how we encourage people of all ages to come back into education. There is a role for the Department of Social Protection in encouraging people to change career choices, but this is also for people who are in their 70s and 80s. There are options to take up courses and degrees in areas of interest. That could be a hobby or going back to study drama and theatre. Now that we see it coming into the junior cert, it would be great to see grandparents deciding to get involved in that as well. I know a lot of people taking on PhDs in areas of interest they had through their lives and never had an opportunity to study. I know many people in their 70s and 80s who never had the chance to go beyond the inter cert in school. We underestimate the opportunities in this regard and it would be great to see those extra supports when it comes to people of an older age who wish to re-engage in education and study for their own enjoyment.

I will speak to both amendments, but I do not propose to accept them. It is important to note that the State pension age has never been 65 and there has been no entitlement to a contributory State pension at 65. The Pensions Commission concluded its detailed analysis of the State pension system in late 2020 and recommended increasing the State pension age rather than decreasing it. The Government decided not to increase the State pension age, but rather to leave it at 66. I do not believe that a further report on State pension age is warranted at this time. Reducing the State pension age to 65 would increase pension-related expenditure significantly. An estimate of the cost of introducing State pension payments at the age of 65 based on current pension rates is €415 million for one year only. This does not include proposed increases. Given current demographic changes and projections, this additional annual expenditure would obviously increase year on year.

In February 2021, I introduced the benefit payment for 65-year-olds. The benefit payment does not require a person to sign on, engage in activation measures, or be available for and genuinely seeking work. There were a number of conditions. They have all been taken out now. The payment was designed to bridge the gap for people who retire from employment or self-employment at 65 years of age, but do not qualify for the State pension until 66. Following the pensions report, I secured Government approval to examine options to provide early access to a pension for a person with a long work history who cannot for health reasons remain in their current occupation. In the meantime, people under the age of 66 who cannot work for health reasons can apply for invalidity pension and disability allowance. I do not have to tell the Senator this, but I will anyway. Where Sinn Féin is in power in Northern Ireland, it voted for the pension age to go up. It is currently at 66, and by 2026 it will go up to 67. By 2046, it will go up to age 68.

Amendment No. 12 relates to establishing a social welfare adequacy commission. The Vincentian Minimum Essential Standard of Living Research Centre is funded by my Department, and we pay for these reports, which are excellent. They provide an analysis of the different levels of income needed for a wide range of household types. This analysis is published every year and I do not propose to duplicate or replace the work of the research centre. The MESL research also highlights issues that may be better solved with greater access to services rather than increases in income. In this regard, having access to secondary benefits such as medical cards, school meals and school books can result in significant reductions in the minimum income standards needed by households. The full package of permanent and temporary welfare changes introduced under budget 2025 is progressive. It will have greater positive impact for the lower income quintiles, and I am happy with the existing extensive engagement I have with the stakeholders. I have a forum every year. I meet with them and listen to them, and it forms part of our budget proposals later in the year.

I call Senator Higgins and remind her that we are due to finish at 6 p.m.

Why we probably need a new pension commission is that there was a fundamental gap. The terms of reference of the Pensions Commission excluded the tax relief on private pensions, so we had a situation where we were told that the cost of a universal State pension as recommended by the women's council and others would be €3 billion. That would be extortionate, but we know that €2.9 billion is being spent on private pension tax relief, which has of course will increase in next year's budget. Again, until we have an integrated look at our pension system, and a pension commission that genuinely looks at all of the aspects and areas of expenditure relating to pensions, we will not get the best policies in that area. That is not to put that solely on the Minister, but it is important for the record that there was a fundamental flaw in the terms of reference. It is only a situation like that where you would be painted into a wall in terms of expenditure that you would get situations, which I believe are completely, practically, politically and personally unworkable such as the idea of moving towards a 40-year contribution.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 10, after line 35, to insert the following:

“Report on establishing a social welfare adequacy commission

19. The Minister shall carry out a review on establishing a social welfare adequacy commission in order to ensure social welfare rates meet a Minimum Essential Standard of Living (MESL) to study the effect that adequacy of social welfare rates could have on addressing poverty levels and that the report shall be presented to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection ahead of Budget 2026.”.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 19 agreed to.
Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

When is it proposed to take Report Stage?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Bill received for final consideration.

When is it proposed to take Fifth Stage?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Question, "That the Bill do now pass", put and agreed to.

I thank the Minister and Members of the House for their consideration of the Bill. As this is probably the Minister's last time in the Seanad, as we did earlier, I genuinely thank her for engagement with us as Members of this House. I thank her and her officials for their unfailing courtesy. I know she has not had the pleasure of being a Member of this House, but she may come back in the future.

Cuireadh and Seanad ar fionraí ar 5.59 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 6.30 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 5.59 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.
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