Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Public Consultation Committee debate -
Friday, 30 Sep 2022

Voices of All Communities on the Constitutional Future of the Island of Ireland: Discussion

I thank those who have joined us for this afternoon's session, including those who are joining remotely. This is an important topic and it is important that we listen to all voices. As we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Seanad, we are glancing back but also looking forward. We want to hear the views, ideas and vision that everybody has for the next 100 years.

The witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if any of their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that the witnesses comply with any such direction. There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege for witnesses who are attending remotely. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity as those who are physically present.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members who are participating remotely that those who are physically on the complex enjoy a higher level of parliamentary privilege.

I welcome our guests. We will begin with Reverend Kyle Paisley, who is joining us from England. He is welcome and we look forward to his contribution.

Reverend Kyle Paisley

The prospect of the emerald isle becoming a single political entity is not so easily talked down as it used to be. The chief cause is uncertainty over Brexit and the trade border that now exists between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. What do most Ulster unionists think about the idea of a united Ireland? It involves serious practicalities. The economists, Professors John FitzGerald and Edgar Mogenroth, admit there are very few studies of relevance to the issues of the economics of a united Ireland. Dr. Eoin Drea, senior researcher at the Wilfried Martens Centre for European Studies, has stated that a united Ireland would be an economic, political and social disaster for the Republic of Ireland. Of course, what is a disaster for one part of the island is a disaster for the whole island. Could a united Ireland give an economic commitment to Northern Ireland comparable at least to the block grant from the British Government, which currently stands at €15 billion per annum?

Economics matter, but I think identity matters more. A man is not what he possesses. It is his belonging to something that counts. As the good book says, "Ní a niomarcuigh an tsaídhbhris atá ag duine air bith, atá a bheatha."

Michelle O'Neill has stated that constitutional change can be achieved without sacrificing identity or citizenship but in point of fact, constitutional change brings about a new identity and a new citizenship. One could be British and unionist in a new Ireland, but in name only. Furthermore, if political ties with the rest of the UK are cut, it is to be feared that it might be an irreversible severance. At present, there is no assurance that unionists would be able to campaign for a restoration of the union.

Nationalists speak about winning hearts and changing minds. My heart is fixed and cannot be won but all things considered, winning over moderate unionists to the idea of a new Ireland is a Herculean task. Political unionism may win the hearts and minds of moderate nationalists by building up local democracy and redoubling its efforts to sell the union - another Herculean task. I hope Britain will undo the damage caused to Northern Ireland and relationships within these islands by its disastrous Brexit policy.

I thank Reverend Paisley for his contribution and for joining us this morning and giving us one of the many voices we need to hear on this ongoing debate. We listened to the voices of young people from across the island this morning. They spoke about the challenges we face. They also said we need to have a plan. As Reverend Paisley has pointed out, political unionism has a task ahead. That is also true of the people who are advocating for a united Ireland. As Reverend Paisley has said, Brexit has brought this issue to the fore and we have seen the consequences of a referendum that was held without due regard to planning.

I will next call Mr. Owen Reidy on behalf of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU. There are five contributors and Senators will ask questions thereafter.

Mr. Owen Reidy

We appreciate the opportunity to be with the committee today to discuss this important topic. The members have our submissions. I will make a couple of brief points. We welcome this debate. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions is an all-island federation and, with workers across the island, it has an important contribution to make to this debate. We are proud of the fact that we are truly a cross-community organisation in Northern Ireland. We represent workers from both traditions and international workers who describe themselves as unionist, nationalist, loyalist, republican and none of the above. That plurality and diversity adds to our voice in this debate. It is a unique voice in that regard. For that reason, we do not take a particular view as persuaders for a united Ireland or persuaders for the status quo. We deal with the situation as we find it.

Whether or not one is in favour of a united Ireland and constitutional change, the state of health of the Belfast agreement, or Good Friday Agreement, should be of concern for all. It is in serious disrepair. Strand one is down, and has been down for 30% of the time since devolution. Strand two in not operating and has been subject to boycotts in recent years. Most Irish diplomats will say that east-west relations, which comprise strand three, are probably at their lowest point in the past 20 years, largely due to the behaviour of recent Tory Governments, in particular around Brexit. Whether one is for constitutional change or the status quo, that is the current constitutional settlement and everyone needs to make sure it is resurrected, and that it works.

We also need to learn from the chaos of Brexit. We need to learn from those mistakes. A political elite gave people a limited binary choice without any preparatory work. There was no debate about the customs union or Single Market, whether students could access the Erasmus programme, etc. Brexit also resulted in the Northern Ireland protocol and the problems with the Irish Sea. We need to learn lessons from that and we cannot allow the debate to be dictated by those of either persuasion who have firm and fixed views. There are many people to persuade.

There has been a lot of talk about the idea of constitutional change but there has not yet been much talk about what it might look like.

Brendan O'Leary's piece in his book is a very welcome contribution. We need to start looking at the mechanics without taking anything for granted and without assuming that constitutional change is inevitable. Regarding whether we have constitutional change or the status quo, there is also the issue of accompanying socio-economic change that addresses the concerns of workers North and South as we emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic and go headlong into a cost-of-living crisis. I hear people say if we had a united Ireland, we could have X, Y and Z and others say that if we had the status quo, we could have X, Y and Z. We will have nothing unless we make political choices that are fundamental. We need to see a transformation of the island of Ireland when it comes to socio-economic issues for all workers whether we have change or the status quo.

Mr. Chris Swain

I am speaking here in an entirely personal capacity. I come from what would be perceived as a Protestant unionist loyalist, PUL, background. During my lifetime, I have been on a personal and political journey from someone who as a young man in the 1980s attended "Ulster Says No" rallies to someone who in 2022 is happy to participate in this Seanad committee.

Not only do I think constitutional change is inevitable, I think it is coming much faster than many realise. That change is something I very much welcome and embrace. For some time now, I have been holding private casual conversations among friends, family and neighbours within the wider PUL community during which I try to explain why I have a desire to see Irish unity. What I have established from those conversations is that there are some who are truly fearful about that prospect. Some are resigned to this happening while some are indifferent. I find that there is an increasing number of people who are on the same path I tread now. I hope that in some small part, this submission can assist with providing insight into those fears and help advance engagement, discussion and understanding of those who identify as British living within Northern Ireland. That really is my primary motivation for speaking today.

In the written submission provided to the committee, I have outlined my thinking about the following topics. Highlighting the distinction between Britishness and unionism is the most valuable contribution I can make. These identities overlap but they are not one and the same. I hope it will be useful in providing insight as to why I feel it is futile to try to engage unionists publicly in conversations about constitutional change. The sensitivity of language is not always appreciated when engaging those of British identity living in Northern Ireland, the North of Ireland, the North, Ulster, the occupied six counties or Tuaisceart na hÉireann. Language is so important as highlighted by the long list of names in use for one small place.

If there is one recommendation I would make, it is this. Do not wait for a referendum before making changes that can remove barriers to constitutional change. With that, I will close by saying go raibh maith agat. I very much welcome members' feedback, comments and any questions they may have.

Dr. Martina Devlin

The committee has my submission. I would like to tell the committee a story. I often go North. I am originally from Tyrone. Sometimes I go to Belfast. Whenever I am there, I love to visit the peace wall to admire the art. Often graffiti artists are at work there and I will stop and chat to them. Before the last lockdown, I spoke to some young men who were working on the Shankill side of the peace wall. As it turned out, they were from Drogheda and born around the time of the Good Friday Agreement. They did not care very much and knew less about the geopolitics of the area. To them, it was just a magical big blank wall they could shape in some way. I thought that was a metaphor - the idea of the tabula rasa. Could the same be said of a new and reimagined Ireland? There is something about walls. I know it has been said apropos fences and poetry but there is something in human nature that makes you want to climb over or go around walls.

A wall has grown up metaphorically between the two parts of this island. Increasingly, people want to find ways around that. It is not just people from the nationalist community. The Brexit shock and the chaos at the heart of the British establishment have accelerated a process. Recently I have been speaking to people who could be loosely defined as cultural unionists - persuadables. They are not afraid of this conversation. They just want to know the detail - what is on offer. They also want to know that the Republic is willing and able to welcome them. They are conscious of a lack of engagement here sometimes. It is extremely hurtful not just to nationalists but to people from a unionist background, who are trying to look at the bigger picture, which for them, is re-admission to the EU, the economic outlook and the opportunity to be part of a large minority rather than part of a grouping where you cannot even vote in the government let alone vote them out.

This is a conversation that is happening in civic society even if political unionism is not engaging in it and it is a conversation for everyone to participate in. What I have noticed is that increasingly people are leaning towards the idea of a hybrid identity. Hybridity is a positive thing. We have this idea of purism - to be pure English, pure Irish or pure Scots, which is nonsense if you drill down into our DNA. Hybridity is the way forward. The census results show that to a certain extent. They show crudely the idea of Catholics outnumbering Protestants. That does not matter in the sense of one block replacing another, particularly in an increasingly secular society. What it does is act as an indicator of people being open to constitutional change. Someone who defines in a particular way may or may not vote for unity but that person is willing to examine the evidence and make an informed choice. What I have noticed with the people from both sides of the Border with whom I speak, particularly in the North, is that what people want in common is the opportunity to work, thrive and have an improved outcome for their children - better opportunities than they had. This transcends these binaries we keep hearing about to do with class and tribe.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

On behalf of the research team, I thank the committee for the invitation to present aspects of our research here today. Constitutional change offers opportunities to advance gender equality. The right for women to be included in conversations and debate about constitutional change should be protected by government. It is a right now enshrined in international law and we can look to the example of UN Resolution 1325.

Our research facilitated women's inclusion in discussions about constitutional change on the island of Ireland. It was funded by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust and the Department of Foreign Affairs. We provided safe spaces for women to discuss constitutional change using community education tools. We conducted ten workshops in Northern Ireland with women and ten workshops in the Republic of Ireland with women. Our participants had diverse political identifications and were from different backgrounds. What they shared was a common goal in wanting to have their say on constitutional change and to have their voices heard.

As a research team, we try to facilitate that.
The findings were as follows. Our participants believed that there should be an inclusion of all social groups in these conversations and discussions and they felt that was an essential component of the unity debate. They argued that it is essential also to support marginalised groups to enable them and facilitate their participation in these conversations. They held that grassroots knowledge was an invaluable resource but was too often underutilised. They underlined the need for human rights and for equality protections in any form of constitutional reform.
They felt it was essential that the grassroots had the information required before a border poll. They were concerned about community tensions and they were concerned about the impact of constitutional change on social welfare and the economy.
We outlined a number of recommendations and principles in the report we submitted and we hope that the committee will consider how they can be implemented in the future.

I thank our first five speakers in this session. I will now give the floor to the Senators. I ask them to be mindful of the fact that they should confine it to questions if they can. I thank everybody for such a broad insight into the range of topics. I call Senator Currie.

Three minutes is not a long time to set out one's stall but we have read their submissions. I thank Reverend Kyle Paisley, Dr. Devlin, Mr. Reidy, Mr. Swain and Professor Ashe.

I hope that this is the beginning of moving the conversation from wanting a united Ireland to what kind of united Ireland do we want. I mean by that what they are telling us about Brexit and that nobody wants to launch into something and not know what we are launching ourselves into, and all of the consequences of that. I am also talking about the concept itself of a united Ireland when it is left as a concept because one can put one's hopes into what that is but one can also put one's fears about what a united Ireland is. This is our opportunity to say what is constitutional change and what that looks like because that is how we bring people with us and that is how we open up the conversation.

I want the witnesses to tell us what are the mechanism that we need to examine and what is the research that we need to do because this is a huge task. I would like us to understand the different areas that we need to focus in on and build a framework of the work and the detail that is involved in this. I completely agree with what Mr. Reidy says. Examining the mechanism and the Good Friday Agreement, we can be open-minded about this and I hope we will be. What is not negotiable to me is the values of the Good Friday Agreement of partnership, inclusion and reconciliation and not throwing the baby out with the bath water about what has brought us to this point and what works. I ask them to tell us today, not only for this panel but for everybody, what are the mechanisms and the detail that we need to look at.

I want to focus on two questions. The questions will be to Reverend Kyle Paisley and Dr. Devlin.

I want to acknowledge, because it was echoed this morning and yet again here today, that words matter and language and the sensitivity of language matters too. I want to acknowledge Reverend Kyle Paisley's opening address to Seanad Éireann, with the word, "Cathaoirleach". We talked about Queen Elizabeth and her use of language in Dublin Castle, much quoted. I want to genuinely acknowledge and thank Reverend Kyle Paisley for the respect shown to this House. It is significant. One word is even very significant. It reminds me of the Irish language and culture and how we must allow and give space for Irish culture and language in Northern Ireland and, for that matter, on the island of Ireland because we talk about the lrish language in Ireland but we have much to do here in terms of our understanding and fluency of the language and the Irish tradition and culture. It is something that all people on this island value. We need to be mindful of that in our ongoing discussions, particularly about the Irish language in Northern Ireland. It is an issue I support. Indeed, I am not a great Irish speaker but I see the richness and the connectivity of it. That is really important because it goes back to that message about identity.

Dr. Devlin talked about something that I touched on this morning. Dr. Devlin mentioned the word "identity" as an emotional construct - I myself said that this morning - and it cannot be ignored. Dr. Devlin said that any new constitutional arrangement must make space for the British identity going forward. That is generous. We need that sense of generosity in our language but also in our actions. Dr. Devlin might elaborate on that. It is a powerful message.

Finally, in relation to that question to Reverend Kyle Paisley, Dr. Devlin says that unionism and unionist difficulties are the republicans' opportunity. It is a cliché to a great extent but, clearly, Dr. Devlin feels it. It was the heading of the second paragraph in Dr. Devlin's speech that she submitted in advance and I would like her to tease that out a little with us.

I always feel a little intimidated speaking after my colleague here because he is such a wonderful speaker.

I thank the witnesses all so much for coming in today. We had young people in this morning and it was mind-blowing. I have to be honest with everyone about that. Hearing these presentations today, and I look forward to hearing the others as well, I want to repeat my thanks to the Cathaoirleach for this wonderful opportunity to be able to speak, and to hear everybody's voice, here today.

It really is significant to hear the voices of Mr. Swain, with his own background and where he is, and of course, Reverend Paisley, here today. Of course, we have our other speakers here today. I cannot thank them enough. I met Reverend Paisley's father many years ago when he got electricity on Rathlin Island - it was unbelievable - where my father comes from. It was historic to get electricity on the island.

I thank everyone. I was struck by Dr. Devlin's description in her submission of the necessity for a more modern hybrid understanding of identity, North and South. I suppose I just wanted to ask Dr. Devlin what can we do to promote this more flexible and inclusive way of thinking because it is so important. Identity, as Senator Victor Boyhan stated this morning, is key in all of these discussions. How can we be more flexible and inclusive in thinking about our identities and ourselves?

Mr. Reidy hit the nail on the head in his submission that we need to ensure that a border poll is run in an orderly informed way so that it does not become the shambles of Brexit. How should the Government plan and prepare to ensure that does not happen? That is key in all of this.

I thank Professor Ashe so much. I would love to see the research. I really would. This is absolutely vital in these conversations going forward. There is a civic organisation event happening tomorrow. We need to bring what Professor Ashe is doing and have more engagement on that. We have the women's council of Ireland speaking at the event but we need Professor Ashe's voice there.

I found Professor Ashe's submission brilliant as well, notably the reference to the gender politics of the Good Friday Agreement and everything that has come after. We have to look at all of that. The way in which women and grassroots campaigners can be shut out of the process was highlighted by groups, such as the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition. How do we ensure that women get to participate fully in discussions on constitutional change?

I do not believe Mr. Beckton has spoken yet.

It was powerful to listen to what Mr. Swain had to say, particularly about he has shifted because of what is happening with Brexit, which has dramatically changed the face of everything. The people of Northern Ireland did not vote for Brexit. We always have to keep that at the forefront of everything we do in the future.

These conversations are fantastic. I am so happy to be here today and so privileged to be able to hear the debate. I recommend that our guests look back at the young people’s forum this morning. I would really encourage them to do so.

Some of them are still here. They were fantastic. We need to hear more young people. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus lenár gcuairteoirí chomh maith as an gcur i láthair. I acknowledge Reverend Kyle Paisley’s use of cúpla focal in this Chamber. We had Linda Ervine here a few months ago for Seachtain na Gaeilge. Before we get into the constitutional issues, I want to make the point that the Irish language is a great unifier in terms of the ties that bind us together. Go raibh céad míle maith agat.

Mr. Forkan spoke about the mechanics of this debate. I think it is very much a consistent point which emerged this morning. I have no doubt that it will emerge in the course of the rest of this afternoon. I do not disagree with him by any stretch of the imagination. All of the themes he mentioned, including workers’ rights, the economy, social justice, housing, health, policing and justice, are key issues and need to be well thought-out, considered and planned for. I believe that at times when we have been engaging in this debate, we have been talking as if the discussion is not happening. The discussion is happening. We need to give this discussion a home and locate it somewhere where it can be facilitated, enabled and resourced. A good place for that would be a citizens’ assembly although I do not believe it would be the be-all and end-all. In the first instance, and this is just a small anomaly of partition, as the Chairman will be aware a citizens’ assembly in this State involves a random selection of 100 citizens from the electoral register here. There is not much good in having a citizens’ assembly on this matter that does not also include citizens from the Six Counties. Small anomalies like that need to be sorted. My question in this regard may be answered by any and all of our contributors. Would they feel that a citizens' assembly or a similar forum would be a useful space in which to locate that discussion in the future?

I must declare an interest because Professor Ashe was my lecturer in university so she is partly to blame for me being here. I do not want to name anybody in particular but it is fantastic to have Ms Eilish Rooney here alongside her. She is a quiet champion of peace, equality, human rights and justice who has done phenomenal work over a long period of time. It will be crucial that people like her are part of this debate in the future.

On the research issue, Professor Ashe is correct in that we need to include those lesser heard voices, with women’s voices being such key voices. Within that, there are multiple communities and voices we need to hear. Within the women’s sector and women more generally, we want to ensure we have "hard-to-reach" voices, a term I personally hate. I am talking about women of colour, women from deprived communities, women who are former combatants and women who have been to the fore in peace-building. We need to ensure we get them into this dialogue. Can I have our guests' immediate view on how we can best achieve that? I agree that we need many voices in this, and I include ourselves in that. We engage in this stuff fairly regularly because it is our meat and drink, but it will be very crucial that we hear all these voices. The same goes for the trade union movement, which Mr. Reidy can reach, and for the community and voluntary sector. We are going to need everybody to put their shoulder to the wheel to ensure we get those voices coming, through our guests, into the space that hopefully will be created sooner rather than later to give a home to this debate. Is é sin an méid uaim.

I thank our five contributors to date. I am looking forward to everyone else's contribution. I wish to put my cards on the table. I am from the great county of Kildare which is in the middle of this great country which we have. I am very interested in this conversation. The most important thing is that we have said we are here as a committee to listen to what our guest speakers have to say. It has been very interesting so far. Unfortunately, I came in at the end of the debate with the young people this morning, but I found that brilliant as well.

I thank Reverend Paisley, Mr. Reidy, Mr. Swain, Dr. Devlin and Professor Ashe for what they have contributed so far. I have two questions. The hybrid identity that Dr. Devlin spoke about has been mentioned by other colleagues. Could she tease that out a little for us? What is she actually talking about there? It is most important that we, as a committee, listen to that.

Mr. Reidy spoke on behalf of an organisation which represents workers about social change. Where does Mr. Reidy see an all-Ireland fitting into social change? Does he have any thoughts on that question? Obviously, some of us, more than others, are here to put a voice to the social change we would like to see. As someone from an all-Ireland organisation that represents workers, where does Mr. Reidy see that going?

Professor Ashe and Mr. Swain are in the communities. Professor Ashe spoke about community tensions coming through in her survey. Could she let us know a little more about those fears?

I will bring the witnesses back in after I have called Senator Clonan to speak.

I apologise if I repeat what has been said by other speakers. My questions are informed by my experience as a student at Trinity College Dublin. I went to Belfast and I had colleagues in Stranmillis University College and St. Mary's University College on the Falls Road. From 1984 to 1989, I spent a great deal of time in Belfast. Through the friendships I made with people from all communities, I found I had nothing whatsoever to fear. However, I fear what is happening in Westminster. I had a conversation with a very high-profile and senior member of the loyalist community whose blushes I will preserve. I will not say who he was. He said to me that the Scottish people know who they are, as do the Welsh. He said that the English are going through a period of existential identity crisis and we need to support them in that moment of uncertainty. It has implications for us. I echo what Mr. Swain and others have said. Change is coming very quickly on this island. We are looking at the twin barrels of change.

I remember a game I used to play with my sisters called “Ready or not, here I come”. My experience as an Army officer in the Middle East and in the former Yugoslavia has told me that when people stop talking, they communicate in other ways and we all know where that leads us to. From my area of interest, I believe that in ten or 15 years' time Óglaigh na hÉireann, or the Defence Forces, will no longer exist. An Garda Síochána, our police force, will no longer exist on this island and I do not know what will have replaced them. Perhaps An Garda Síochána will be called the police force of Ireland or for the land, but I do not know. That is what troubles me because I have a 21-year-old, a 20-year-old, an 18-year-old and a 14-year-old, and they, like our contributors' children and grandchildren, will have to live these next steps and navigate them. It behoves us within this committee and as a community of elders - I hope that term does not offend anybody - to begin the conversations. How will policing, justice, defence, security, intelligence, social protection, education, and health be accommodated? I have a disabled child and I would much prefer the services and therapies he would get in Northern Ireland. Who is having these conversations? My question to our guests relates to how best we facilitate those conversations. Is it through a citizens' assembly? The people are already ahead of these Chambers. There is a major event happening tomorrow in the 3Arena, if I am not mistaken. I would love to have the opportunity to speak at it, but perhaps the next time. We need to reach out to one another and celebrate our differences. Diversity is the key to our survival and to our shared future, in whatever format that takes. We must have a conversation because fear of the unknown will lead to suboptimal outcomes and we do not want to go back to that dark place. I welcome any suggestions from our guest contributors on how we might have those conversations.

Finally, I wish to say that if I can support our guests' work in any way and if I can come to speak at any forum or place they might suggest, I would very happily do that.

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir go dtí Baile Átha Cliath. I was born on the 50th anniversary of 1916 and, with my personal journey going back to the 1980s, I am delighted to see everyone in this Chamber and to hear Reverend Paisley and others. We are all one extended family. Like all families, it is a bit dysfunctional at times, but we are all family.

I thank Senators for their questions and comments. I will go initially to our first contributor, Reverend Kyle Paisley. There are a number of questions. He can pick or choose as he wishes or answer them all. I thank him for staying on the line.

Reverend Kyle Paisley

There is a lot to address. First, I am grateful for the comments regarding the Irish language. I understand that a great Englishman, William Bedell, was the first man to translate the Bible into the Irish language, to many complaints from many of his fellow clergy on the island of Ireland. As they say here, the only way is Essex. He was a good man.

A question was raised about the second paragraph in the full submission about unionists' difficulty being republicans' opportunity. I know that is an old cliché. What does hold water in the present situation is that we all agree that the Troubles in the North of Ireland cast a long shadow, and still do, over relationships and the general atmosphere in northern Irish politics. I put that line in because there is still a fear among many unionists that if there is a united Ireland, there may be elements who would seek to exploit that. People in Border communities suffered a great deal during the Troubles. Going to the question of identity in a united Ireland, it may be possible, and I am sure many have good intentions regarding this, to have the history and culture of unionists and folk of a British identity be respected and acknowledged, with freedom being given to the expression of history and culture.

The one remaining issue with regard to identity is affiliation, which is a harder issue to get across. If people's history is acknowledged and they have the freedom to express their culture in a new Ireland, the one sticking point for many unionists is national affiliation. Briefly, people cannot really be unionists without the union and without that national affiliation. That is as much as I can say. I cannot remember all the questions that I was asked, but I hope I have answered some things in some way, at least with an outline.

I thank Reverend Paisley for his contribution. He is more than welcome to stay on the line for the rest of the contributions. We thank him for being here today.

Mr. Owen Reidy

Those were interesting, important questions. I will try to take them in the round and not to be too long-winded. In response to Senator Currie, the question presupposes that ICTU is advocating for a united Ireland. We are neutral on the issue because we represent workers across Northern Ireland who vote for all parties and none, who identify as British, Irish or Northern Irish, and our growing international workforce, though it is not growing enough because of the state of the economy and because some do not feel welcome enough. As an organisation that is interested in social change, we want change today. We do not see it as being dependent on the constitutional issue. It is a fundamental issue. We want to be part of the debate.

I would like to read Dr. Martina Devlin's submission because I would say she captures the identity issue well. I will give an analogy. There are many strikes in Northern Ireland at the moment. Senator Ó Donnghaile will know the council areas only too well as a native of Belfast. When it comes to identity, we look at people in a linear, one-dimensional way. It has to be multifaceted. People on the picket line represent various unions. One might be a DUP voter, another a Sinn Féin voter, and others may be everything in between. One may say that it is a disgrace that devolution has collapsed and another may say that the DUP is right to stay out until the protocol is fixed. What unites them is they are frustrated about the cost-of-living crisis and they want a pay increase. That is incoherent and inconsistent for some people. To me, as a trade unionist who has operated in Northern Ireland for the past six years, with 18 years previously in the Republic of Ireland, it is not inconsistent. It is what it is. It is part of people's identities. What people here are trying to do and to build is important. We cannot just categorise people by how they vote, whether it is with regard to identity, cultural or socioeconomic issues. They have many identities. We need to make sure that we do not fall into the linear argument of asking if people are for or against something and, if they are against it, deciding maybe they should be coaxed to be for it.

A couple of points were raised about what we need to see happen. We need to see them happen today, whether it is in one jurisdiction or two. The UK and Republic of Ireland shamefully have one thing in common. We produced a report that we cited with a link in our submission to the committee. It is called, No Going Back – A New Deal Towards a Safe and Secure Future for All. We still spend too little on public services per person in the UK and the Republic of Ireland. We talk about wanting European services, but we do not have European taxes. Employers in Northern Ireland pay 41% on national insurance and labour taxes compared with rates in the rest of Europe. Employers in this jurisdiction pay 48%. People like Danny McCoy, the head of IBEC, say that we need a bigger state. If we have learned anything from Covid, it should be that collective solidarity is key and that the state has to be adequately resourced, with people paying their fair share. To be fair, in the Republic of Ireland, the tax system for workers is progressive. When people earn more, they pay more. It has become less progressive in the UK because of what Mr. Kwarteng did with the 45% tax rate.

The social wage needs to be addressed and fundamentally changed. That is not predicated on whether it is one jurisdiction or two. Some people would say that it would be inevitable if we had one with the right government. Other people would say it would be addressed if the Labour Party in Britain was in government. The constitutional issue is separate to that and runs in parallel. Workers cannot wait for a better future or for social justice being dependent on constitutional change, nor can the status quo persist.

Citizens' assemblies have worked well in the Republic of Ireland. They have been excellent and shown in many cases that the people are ahead of the political class to some degree. I do not know how we would do it on an all-island basis. My concern about Northern Ireland would be that certain people would just absent themselves from the process and I would wonder if it was a true reflection of the dynamic.

The building blocks are part of the architecture that we have all signed up to, which is the Good Friday Agreement. That is the architecture for whatever the future holds. We should not be fearful of it.

We should not talk about a united Ireland as if it is a point in time to reach. Society constantly evolves. I do not mean to constantly look at Senator Currie since I am talking to everybody and trying to address all the questions. Society evolves and we need to improve as we go along. Whether we have a united Ireland or the current situation, workers have to make the best of it. It behoves the political class to do its bit to help us to do that.

I am sorry if I went on a bit.

Mr. Reidy is fine.

Dr. Martina Devlin

Hybridity is an idea close to my heart. Several Senators raised it. We cannot expect people to stop being unionists even if there is a united Ireland. That is like asking people to change their identity entirely, which is not logical, fair or inclusive. We need to show unionists that their distinctiveness would be respected in a united Ireland, not swallowed up, and not tolerated grudgingly. It should be given scope.

Understanding and appreciating someone else's symbolic icons does not topple your own. There is room for both. The answer lies in the Good Friday Agreement, which can be reverse engineered to encompass the island as a whole. That could be used to make space for hybridity just as in Northern Ireland people have the right to define yourself as Irish, British, European, one or all three as you so choose. That can be reversed into a united Ireland with constitutional protections for those identities. That is really important.

It is an enormous opportunity because we are not just talking about people who think of themselves as British and Irish or British-or-Irish; we are talking about Irish Nigerians or Irish Polish people, Irish Chinese people and the same protections ought to be offered there. This is an enormous opportunity. Of course the thing about the Constitution, and indeed the Republic, is that it is a living document. It needs to constantly evolve and be improved.

On Senator Black's points, we should not think in terms of cultural superiority but cultural equality. That means making space for 12 July, for example, as a national holiday. I would love to learn how to play the Lambeg drum. I might not be able to lift it but I would like to have a go at it. These symbols are not threatening any more.

If I might address Reverend Paisley directly, we can learn from each others symbols. Both sides of the house used to play those drums once upon a time before the Troubles. There are opportunities to respect each other's culture and identity in a really genuine way and not in a box-ticking way. I heard his father preach after the Omagh bomb in 1998. I sneaked into a little Free Presbyterian church; I think it was in Pomeroy but it was definitely outside Omagh. I got lost on the highways and byways getting there. I stood outside where I was just going to listen. A nice man with white gloves, a suit and very respectably dressed for church whooshed me inside and sat me down beside some ladies with their hymn books. I had to participate then or I would have been outed, although I am sure they knew right well. However, I have never forgotten the address he gave to the congregation. What was key about it is that he did not know that there was anyone from my background, which can probably be guessed from the look of me with my green jacket, red hair, freckles and my name. He did not know that there were people like me there. He thought that he was addressing a funeral after the Omagh bomb in the Presbyterian community. He said to that congregation that a mother's love is a mother's love and a mother's loss is a mother's loss, irrespective of whether she is Catholic or Protestant. I thought that showed leadership.

What I would like to say to everyone in this Chamber and especially the political class here, because it has an important role to play, is that leadership is needed from the political class. Senator Boylan asked for some information on that and I think Senator Ó Donnghaile did too. We need to start by establishing an independent body to consider the case, reporting its findings within a specified timeframe. It should be cross-party, cross-Border, with Irish, British and EU membership, along with representatives from civil society. We want a team of people working together to plan how reunification might be delivered in a logical, sustainable way. When we have that information, then we go to those people that I was talking about whom I meet in places like Bangor and Belfast and around the North who come from a culturally unionist background and who are not, as I said, afraid of the conversation despite what some of their leaders are staying; they just want to know what the plan is.

I am sorry. I have elevated Dr. Devlin to Senator already. I thank Dr. Devlin and call on Mr. Swain and then Ms Rooney

Mr. Chris Swain

I have heard a lot and I am really impressed by Dr. Devlin's analysis. It is the first time I have heard the term "hybrid identity". Identity and understanding identity in Northern Ireland is the key to this. In my presentation I talked about language and its importance. I talked about the very genuine fear in my community, the unionist community, of a united Ireland. In my introduction I did not talk of this but I said that in understanding that fear, the clue is in the name. The unionist raison d'être is the union. Unionism will cease to exist in a united Ireland. That is why there is so much fear. Unionism is an identity but Britishness is a greater identity. It would be true to say every unionist is British but it not true to say that every British identity is a unionist. Here is one example: I am British, I am Irish. I think I live in the most fortunate part of the world because I can hold both those identities. Neither one eclipses or diminishes the other and my life is the richer for them both. Language is important and understanding Britishness as opposed to unionism. I did a little research before I made my submission. I went onto the UK Government website. There are 277,000 British people living in southern Ireland. That is greater than the DUP vote. Are they less British because they live in a place called Ireland? I do not think that they are. Then with the Irish people and Irish identity, the Irish diaspora is well known and understood but an Irishman living in Cork, Crossmaglen, Chicago or Coventry is Irish. As a British person, I can be British whether I am living in Belfast or Ballina. One of the things that I have observed when I have been talking to people from my community is when unionists get invitations to talk about a new Ireland, a shared Ireland and a future Ireland, a redness descends because they realise that conversation is about their extinction. If those conversations are directed to British people and to British identity, British identity is a global thing. When I am talking to my unionist friends I pose the question: will Nicola Sturgeon be any less British if Scotland achieves independence? She will not. That is the point that I would like to make.

Ms Eilish Rooney

Professor Ashe and myself are here today because hundreds of women across the island are interested in having their say in this conversation. All they wanted was the opportunity. With a fairly small resource, we provided the opportunity for them not only to have their say but to do what we are doing today, and listen to other people have their say too and to learn more about what constitutional change might mean and what specifically it might mean for women. We were interested in hearing their voices. I feel that we are here today because they gave their voices and did so freely.

There was even a pleasure and enjoyment in the conversation between people, especially between those who had very different experiences of living in Northern Ireland and the North and those who had very different experiences of being in the Republic of Ireland. We brought women together throughout the island to listen to each other and continue the conversation. We were asked about how we promote the conversation. One of our findings was that the conversation is there waiting to be had; what is needed is a mechanism. The mechanism we devised, using community education methods, was a very usable and well-known mechanism within the women's sector, for instance, that can be used and employed - with the encouragement of the Seanad for sure - in working class communities and in hard-to-reach communities with hard-to-reach people, such as the people we talked to. Those people want to have their voices heard. Today's meeting has already continued the work we started because Senators are listening to those voices. They have got our report, heard our recommendations and, in a way, we can say to the women we have worked with that the Seanad heard them.

That is not the same as a citizens' assembly, which is work at another political level that will be very welcome whenever the day comes, but people are already having their own assemblies. At Féile an Phobail earlier this year, we had a people's self-selected assembly. That does not meet the standards of a citizens' assembly but it was a fun way for people to have their say and to feel themselves included, most especially when what they had to say was not what other people wanted to hear. Voices that are excluded have to be heard and we have to find mechanisms to enable those voices to be heard.

The last point I will address was one reported on by Professor Ashe, namely, a tension within some working class communities, especially loyalist working class communities, where some women registered concerns about their own security in even articulating publicly a view about the conversation. Those things happen on some occasions and, listening to the presentations we heard today, there is a mood change. Certainly, within the women's groups and the women's sector in working class loyalist areas in the North, people want to have their say, they want their voices to be heard, and to reinforce some of the points made by colleagues today. I do not see that sense of insecurity as a weakness. I see people articulating that sense of insecurity as a strength. We need to hear those people. They need to be heard within their own communities and encouraged to have their say.

I thank Ms Rooney for her work. I also thank Professor Ashe, Mr. Swain, Dr. Devlin, Mr. Reidy and Reverend Paisley for all their contributions to this session. There has been a huge range of insights, particularly in respect of the Transitional Justice Institute and its work. It is way ahead of us and everybody else in the work it has done. It is a template for the way to have a conversation in those hard-to-reach communities.

We will move on to the next session. I again thank the Reverend Paisley for being with us; he is most welcome to stay online and listen in. Our next contributor is Mr. John Cushnahan, a former leader of the Alliance Party and a former Fine Gael MEP. He is most welcome.

Mr. John Cushnahan

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak. I will reference the most recent event. Some nationalist groupings have been campaigning for a border poll for some time now, as is their right. Those behind the campaign obviously feel their objective has, to some extent, been justified following the recent publication of the 2021 census results in Northern Ireland. However, I question the interpretation of those results and the wisdom of using the arithmetic of the religious composition of the Northern Ireland population as a major argument for seeking fundamental constitutional change at this point in time through the holding of a very premature border poll.

Before embarking on such a risky course of action, it is important for all of us to learn from the mistakes of recent and previous historical initiatives on major constitutional or institutional change, three of which I detailed in my submission. First, this island was partitioned a century ago. Two separate states were established on the basis of religious arithmetic. In Northern Ireland, political institutions were established on the basis of majority rule, which discriminated against the Catholic nationalist minority whose consent was never sought. The consequence, of course, was the Northern Ireland Troubles. If future constitutional change is to take place, it must be able to win the consent of both the nationalist majority and the unionist minority rather than a simple majority of 50% plus one.

Second, in 2016, as has been mentioned by Mr. Reidy and Senator Black, the disaster of the Brexit referendum poisoned relationships between political parties in the UK, between Britain and Ireland, and between the Irish Government and the unionist population in Northern Ireland. I agree with what has been said, and I said it in my submission, that mistake must be learned from. Before we ever go near a vote on a border poll, the electorate in both parts of Ireland must be adequately informed, not only about what they will vote on but the consequences of whatever the vote will be. I think Senator Black raised the question of how we do that and I raised it in my submission. I do not go for the idea of a citizens' assembly. The best people to do that would be those involved in an inter-university project. Many academics throughout these islands are looking at this issue. They should be brought under one umbrella and they should look at all the options people have, whether it is an continuation of the present constitutional status quo, with possible change in many institutional ways, or the different types of all-Ireland structures, such as federal, confederal and so on. A third option I raised relates to what happens if Scotland gains independence. Does that give us another different type of structure, one that is outside the present framework? We should also think outside the box. If Scotland gains independence, we could create a new European structure as a western part of the European Union. It is important to educate the electorate.

Third, in 1998, two referendums in both parts of Ireland overwhelmingly approved the Good Friday Agreement. Although it brought an end to terrorist violence, it has failed to deliver political institutions and reconciliation. We need to revisit it. In my submission, I propose an amendment to the St. Andrew's Agreement to ensure the functioning of stable political institutions in Northern Ireland. We also need to clarify the conditions for a border poll. Without stable institutions, it is difficult to understand the logic of holding a referendum on Irish unity. If we cannot unite in Northern Ireland's political institutions, how can we expect to unite Ireland? The priority should be to ensure that stable political institutions are established in Northern Ireland rather than holding a border poll.

Mr. Seamus Sloyan

I will be very brief. As I look around, I believe I am the oldest person here at 84 years of age. Why do I bother? Senator McDowell hit it on the head; it is because I care. I have four children and seven grandchildren. I care about the country they will inherit. A united Ireland is inevitable. It will not happen in my lifetime but it will happen in my grandchildren's lifetime. I am confident of that.

A number of things have to be taken into account. The time for a border poll is not now. A 50% plus one majority would be a disaster; it has to be more definitive than that. What comes next after the border poll, if it is in favour of a united Ireland? On policing, what would our police force be called? The PSNI and An Garda Síochána would have to be joined together in some form or another.

Where would the seats of Government be? Would they be in Dublin? Would they be in Belfast? As regards the national anthem, I would be in favour of changing it altogether. If we were united, it should be "A Nation Once Again" because we would be one nation.

The Irish language is a beautiful language. It will be spoken by the minority in the next 50 years. However, British or unionists have no interest in it. That's okay. As regards the flag, will the white be taken out of the flag and the green and orange joined? The unionist role in a united Ireland is very important. The first thing that would have to happen is an all-Ireland election. If that happened, the unionist population would elect their representatives just as they do now. That would start a government, and rightly so.

On our shared culture, we cannot ignore the fact that the Battle of the Boyne took place; it is part of our culture. The Easter Rising took place; it is part of our culture. The Siege of Derry took place; it is part of our culture. There is no use sweeping these away. They are a part of what we were and what we will always be. Ireland's relationship with Britain would be a lot happier and we would be better friends in a united Ireland than we are at present.

I call Mr. Gallagher, who is long-time participant in the New Ireland Group and a community activist.

Mr. Francis Gallagher

Can I stand?

You can of course.

Mr. Francis Gallagher

Chairman, distinguished Senators, colleagues, I really enjoyed the contributions out of everyone. I want to add to what the Senators asked in respect of what political framework will develop from all of this. I will outline briefly what I think are the three main constitutional frameworks that could be possible. One is a federation, one is a confederation and the other is a centralised state. All of those options are unitary states. The federal option delegates adequate power to the people in order that more power can be retained in the centre. The confederal state is the most democratic option because it considers the people as totally sovereign. The best example would be Switzerland, where there is direct democracy. For example, I come from the area around the Mourne Mountains. If the powers that be are going to take away Newcastle's or Downpatrick's local hospital, through direct democracy, the local people can go out into their village square, vote on it and say "We want to keep our local hospital". The confederal constitution is the most democratic. The Irish Republic is a centralised state because most of the political power is in Dublin, although there are the local democracies. I am here to advocate for a confederal democracy. I encourage people to look at Switzerland as an inspiration for that.

The other point I would like to make is about identity. Identity is extremely important, but there is also another concept that is very important and that is accountability. I have lived all my life in Northern Ireland, or the North, whichever way you want to term it, and what I perceive as the major problem - we are not supposed to speak about entities here, so I will keep it more general - with the governmental system in the North is that it is based too much around identity rather than accountability. This institutionalises, or is inclined to institutionalise, sectarianism. If we are going to build a new Ireland, we have to try to forge a new consensus for a new Ireland. That means drawing up a completely new constitution for the whole island. It is highly unlikely at this stage that a considerable number of unionist people would not take part in any debate on that. If that debate was initially around reforming the institutions in the North of Ireland, maybe more might take part.

One point about citizens' conventions, I advocate that those meet in each town where consensus is measured and everyone is given a say. A select citizens' assembly is okay, but how do you select those people? What is their expertise? What about all the people who have not had a say? Measuring consensus is also very important.

I call Dr. Tuffery.

Dr. Alan Tuffery

I feel like a real minority today. We have talked a lot about minorities.

A constitution is the safeguard of the rights and liberties of every citizen. It is also the ultimate test of the law. However, a constitution is not unchangeable. We have been talking about possible changes all afternoon. It is organic. It reflects the changes of the views of the citizens, and we have seen that several times in recent years. It is important, I suggest, that all citizens should feel that the constitution is theirs and that they are not in anyway excluded by it; especially in the context of the aspiration we have been talking about of the unity of this island by consent, which is essential. Our Constitution reflects the fact that it was framed at a time when the Roman Catholic Church had great influence in all aspects of Irish life. I argue that in Ireland today, the specifically Christian elements of the Constitution exclude those citizens who do not subscribe to a religious belief. The numbers of those citizens are increasing, especially among the younger cohort. We have already heard mention of the results of the recent Northern Ireland census. There is a human right to freedom of religion and belief and a right not to be compelled to reveal one's beliefs in public. Two sections of the Constitution concern me. First, the Preamble, which sets the tone. It begins "In the name of the most holy trinity" and ends with "we acknowledge all our obligations to our divine lord Jesus Christ". That specifically excludes all non-Christians immediately. Indeed, it includes some Christians who are not in fact Trinitarians. Second, is the requirement for religious oaths for public office. The Constitution requires that the President, judges and members of the Council of State take a religious oath. In principle, this excludes those who do not believe in a monotheistic religion. In practice, it requires those without a religious belief to commit a hypocritical act as the first act associated with their office. That cannot be a desirable outcome. It is the business of the State to mediate between different interests and belief groups, tolerating as much difference as possible without privileging any group unduly. The way minorities are treated is a key test of a modern democracy. I suggest to the committee that the Preamble and the oaths relating to public office are both undesirable and unjustified and, in principle, privilege one set of beliefs over others.

I now call the final speaker in this session Mr. Scott.

Mr. Campbell Scott

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak. I am not here to represent any specific community. I am not affiliated to any political organisation. My views are my own. I feel my life's journey, from being born a British subject in a loyalist community in Belfast through to becoming a proud citizen of the Irish Republic, gives me some life experience that might help in the opportunities and challenges we face in the coming years. We have an unequalled opportunity to create a society that can be rich in its diversity and inclusivity, that has a strong economy and that is innovative; a place in which people can thrive and prosper.

My dream is that my unionist family and friends will find that society desirable and, at least, an acceptable place for them to live and thrive. I have grave concerns, however. Mr. Cushnahan spoke about 50%+1. The demographics suggest we are within touching distance of gaining a border poll but that creates a significant problem in terms of those unionists who will not accept simple democracy. That could have the real threat of returning us to dark days of conflict that we have tried to avoid. This dialogue is important and it needs to be supercharged so that we can get these civil assemblies. In the run-up to the Good Friday Agreement there was significant dialogue on a one-to-one basis or within community groups that helped to break down some of these barriers.

I have no set views or expertise on the constitutional structures. I probably favour unity. There is a dysfunctional government in the North at the moment. There are a few potential compromises and other areas to consider. I refer to the issue of defunding religious education. There has been great work in integrated education and that is growing slowly but it is too little and too slow. Governments, North and South, have the purse strings to defund that religious education. We can mandate that schools have to be non-religious. To me, that is probably the single biggest barrier to creating an integrated society. I did not meet a catholic until I was 16 and had left school. That still happens today. As regards the Irish language, I am a supporter of Irish language education but I know it is not going to be acceptable to unionists who join a new Ireland. In addition, the current structure in the Republic means that we do not tap into the 13% of non-residents who could be part of that teaching capacity. That would be much more diverse and rich.

On health, in the Republic there is a need to remove all religious patronage from the health service.

The issue of flags and emblems has been raised. I am now proud to respect the Tricolour and sing Amhrán na bhFiann but during the Troubles they were paraded as the war emblems of terrorists. I know that they will not be acceptable to my fellow unionists and friends. The trigger that encouraged me to become an Irish citizen was the constitutional change in 1998, to which reference has been made. Articles 2 and 3 being changed was a signal to me to accept my Irish citizenship. Previously, those articles had been used as justification for killing and maiming people.

Some of these suggestions may not seem acceptable but a process of unification that is going to gain the will of the many will need such compromises. We will develop a stronger, richer and more inclusive society and economy as a result. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

I thank Mr. Scott. I now turn to Senators. I ask them to keep their questions brief and to direct them to particular witnesses for response.

My apologies; I had to step out of the meeting briefly so I did not catch all of the contributions. My questions are for any of the witnesses to answer. There was reference to the mechanics of some of this stuff and how people envisage that. In terms of issues of identity, respect and creating space, what is not a parallel process but can almost be done in parallel is the issue of the Irish Government going further than just making a passport available to people, which is important. There is great symbolism with a passport and I do not diminish it at all but it is possible to go further. Those present may be aware that I have campaigned for a referendum on extending voting rights in presidential elections. Not every unionist, and probably not every nationalist and republican, would take up that opportunity, but I have spoken to a former member of the British parachute regiment who is from Belfast and was involved in negotiating the Good Friday Agreement with the Ulster Unionist Party. He said he would love to have the opportunity to cast a vote for the President because he very much saw that office as being representative of him.

In the previous Seanad, Senator McDowell chaired a subgroup on Seanad reform that set out a number of proposals. The Cathaoirleach need not worry - I am not taking us off track. It produced a range of proposals, including the extension of the franchise in Seanad elections universally, to every citizen. As all present are aware, the Seanad electorate is currently quite small. The universal extension of that franchise would mean that, from Kerry to Derry, everyone would have the opportunity to elect candidates to the House. That would strengthen and enrich the opportunities. I have seen up close the benefits of having unionist voices in this Chamber.

Are there things the Irish Government can do unilaterally, in parallel with the issues we have discussed this morning? The word "unilaterally" is sometimes taken as being nearly like a scary or bad word but I think it would be positive unilateralism if the Irish Government were to take these initiatives and show, in a respectful and courteous way, everyone in the North - nationalist, unionist or neither - that they could have a stake. There was reference to Articles 2 and 3. Yesterday at a meeting of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement I made the point that some people think Articles 2 and 3 were deleted from the Constitution in the context of the Good Friday Agreement but they were replaced with a commitment that people born on the island have a right to be part of the Irish nation. I am keen to hear the thoughts of our guests on how the Irish Government can and should give effect to that, which is on the table now, alongside working towards constitutional change and redrawing the Constitution in a way that is respectful to everyone.

Mr. Cusnahan and others mentioned a border poll. I do not even think about a border poll. For me, it is about planning and preparing. Everything comes down to planning, preparation, communication and these conversations. It is vital for our Government to be looking at planning. There have been a lot of academic papers on planning and preparing. Colin Harvey has done significant work on it, as has John Doyle from DCU. The conversations are happening around kitchen tables and in households and now, thankfully, it is being brought in here, to Leinster House, thanks to the Cathaoirleach, and civil society groups such as Ireland's Future, of which I am part. That is really important. It is about the conversations and it is about planning and preparing. How would the witnesses like to see our Government plan and prepare for this? That is key.

We are all kind of asking the same questions in respect of what we need to include in our preparation. I have heard great suggestions in respect of facilitated dialogue, community engagement and an independent body. There is so much to cover. Senator Black and Mr. Cushnahan kind of spoke about the same issue, namely, identity versus accountability with regard to the Assembly. I am oriented towards the technical, so I ask the witnesses to talk me through their understanding - Senator Black covered this with the various models - of being open-minded about this, as well as the models we need to consider.

I am not a member of the committee, so I am very grateful to the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to participate.

The Senator is most welcome.

I am honoured to be allowed to participate. I listened very carefully to the remarks of Mr. Swaine.

He asked what is a unionist in a united Ireland. It is arguable unionism is extinct in terms of the view of a unitary Irish State. Therefore, when you ask the unionist community and middle ground in Northern Ireland to opt for a new constitutional order on this island, you are asking a substantial number of people to extinguish their ideology in practice and to revert to a sense of Britishness or whatever in a unitary state. Andrew Gallagher has put forward a paper which accords entirely with my view concerning a confederal arrangement whereby both parts of Ireland, as partners in a confederation, share membership of the European Union on agreed terms and Northern Ireland continues to be and develop as a political community and changes the Good Friday Agreement to provide for a more majoritarian, less mutual-vetoing architecture. That is the way forward. If I were an Alliance or unionist voter, I would never vote "Yes" in a referendum for Irish unity unless I see the package. The package will never be devised by me because, if I am a unionist politician, I will never participate in its design. These are the crude facts.

The best chance of having a change in the constitutional architecture of this island is for the two parts of Ireland to come to a partnership together. It means radical unitary state republicans have to accept that their ideal be postponed for a while in order that the confidence of those who want to remain British in Northern Ireland, and to retain their own police, parliament and capacity to make laws, is retained. No amount of dialogue will come up with a model in whose development unionism can participate because it is too risky for unionist politicians, but the confederal path is the right path. You can get two component parts of this island to share their membership of the European Union. You could even have some vestiges of linkage to Britain remaining in the northern architecture, as long as there was an Irish confederation.

I have done a paper on this and put it before Jeffrey Donaldson a few years ago. I believe to ask unionists to surrender - I am using that term in the most technical sense, like people getting married surrender to each other - to an order in whose design they have not participated is fatally flawed and not likely to succeed, whereas to respect the fact Northern Ireland exists and could be a partner of the Republic in a confederation would enable confidence to be built in Northern Ireland.

Going back to what was stated by Senator Ó Donnghaile, there are things we can do ourselves, such as the Seanad and all the rest of it. Northern Ireland needs to remove the mutual veto on the petition of concern and that kind of stuff, and to address each other as fellow citizens, one of whose votes is as good as the next and who are no longer dominated by identity politics. I put that to Mr. Gallagher in particular, I suppose, since he agrees with me most.

I thank everybody. I really like the idea of a university-led examination of people's views. That infrastructure is already there across the island. Who better than our research leaders in the human and political sciences to do good phenomenological and qualitative research at PhD or post-doctoral level? We would get results quickly, within three or four years, and would bring all those voices to the fore. It is a great suggestion. No pressure.

Mr. John Cushnahan

To respond to Senator Black, informing people is crucial. That is why I say we learn a lesson from Brexit and the way it should take place, not on the basis of a citizens' assembly but academics, who are more qualified than anybody else. All this research is going on but it never reaches the voters or even the elite. Committee members probably do not know about it. None of the similar bodies in Westminster or Northern Ireland are given this information. Planning is critical.

I have argued the inter-university project must not be prescriptive or come to a conclusion. It provides the various structural options for going forward. I am not against a border poll. I am against the premature timing of it, which will exacerbate the problem when there is total political instability and fear in the North. Timing is critical. Another thing that is critical, no matter how long it takes to have such a poll, is how those leading the campaign for a border poll on Irish unity argue their case. It cannot be about arithmetic. It has to be about persuasion and must convince unionists that a united Ireland will not be as cold a place to live as Northern Ireland was for Catholics. There are not many good signs about that.

I mentioned in my submission the opinion poll in the Business Post. What was horrifying about it was the reluctance to think about changing the national anthem or having unionists in a form of power-sharing in government. The younger they were, the more hardline they were against making any change which would persuade unionists. That has to change. We cannot expect unionists to surrender to nationalists. This has to be something where unionists and nationalists walk together to try to create institutions which respect their different identities and, most important, assure them they have a place in it and are part of it and it is an inclusive project.

On Senator McDowell's point, if there ever is a united Ireland, we have to protect the British identity. There was a committee in this House that saw the basis of doing that in the comprehensive debate about the Good Friday Agreement. The British-Irish Council should continue to represent the interests of those with a British identity, just as the Good Friday Agreement represented nationalists in Northern Ireland. That should be a critical point of any architecture in an all-Ireland-----

Mr. Seamus Sloyan

I agree with most of what Mr. Cushnahan said but there was a piece I left out. My idea of identity is if you are born in Wales you are Welsh, if you are born in Scotland you are Scottish, if you are born in England you are English, and if you are born in the Thirty-two Counties of Ireland you are Irish. You can be what you like afterwards: Irish-British, Irish-Scotch or whatever you like. That is my opinion.

On my vision for Ireland, while the one Senator McDowell mentioned has great value, I would like to see Ireland reunited within the Commonwealth of Nations.

We lost that identity in 1949 when - I will not mention who took it away from us but it is well known - on a whim, because he was seated in the wrong place at a party, this person took offence and decided we were getting out of the Commonwealth. I would like to see us back in the Commonwealth. It is not the British Commonwealth, it is the Commonwealth of Nations. I am open to correction, but as far as I know there are several republics in the Commonwealth.

That is right.

Mr. Seamus Sloyan

There is no reason we should not be in it. I will leave it at that.

Dr. Alan Tuffery

I would like to take up one very useful point made by Senator Ó Donnghaile regarding things the Government here can do now. There are lots of things we can do that would make this polity a better one for those of us living here now. They would also make it more attractive to citizens not only in this Republic but in Northern Ireland. Neither polity, Northern Ireland or the Republic, wants to inherit in a united Ireland the problems and faults of the other jurisdiction. We have all got our own problems, which we are trying to deal with. We have them and Northern Ireland has them, and it is trying to deal with those too as best it may.

There are things we can do. At the risk of stealing some of Mr. Campbell Scott's thunder, we can legislate for change in education and health to remove the residual religious influence which many would say is far too dominant - certainly secularists and humanists like me would say so. If we create what I would call a more liberal - I know that is a dangerous word - society, that is, one that is more respectful of minorities, it would be a more attractive one for people to come and join for those from Northern Ireland, and it would be a more attractive place to live in.

Mr. Francis Gallagher

I do not know if I am able to answer the question exactly but I agree with Senator McDowell who made a few excellent points. The malaise affecting people now across the whole island, probably more so than anything else, is that they feel alienated from representative democracy. They feel they do not have any say in the major decisions that affect their future. The question was asked about what could be done in the North or even in the South. I would encourage a movement towards a more participative-style democracy where people can influence the decisions where they live and work. I think this is the way the future of democracy has to go. For example, what the Government in the Irish Republic could do is work towards that type of governmental system where people have more of a say in the decisions that affect their well-being. I know people can vote through representative democracy, but what does that mean to somebody whose local hospital is being closed down in Monaghan? It does not mean much to him or her. In Northern Ireland, what does that mean to people in Newry and Downpatrick whose local hospital is being run down? The way to do that is to have citizens' conventions in each major town throughout the whole island. The difficulty is that the unionist people may not take part in that, so we may have to confine the debate in the North to reforming the institutions in Northern Ireland. For example, one point that could be done right away relates to the idea of a First Minister. This encourages a rush to the bottom because then people are vying for position to see who can get the First Minister post. The reality, according to my knowledge, is that the First Minister and deputy First Minister positions are equal. It would be a great step forward in the North of Ireland if the posts were designated as equal. I do not know if that answers the question, but the idea to keep in mind is that instead of a referendum there is a preferendum, so that when people vote from one to four, they might not get their first choice but they might get their second choice. That way we are building consensus. That would be a useful mechanism for the citizens' assemblies. A preferendum is very good instead of a binary referendum because it builds consensus.

Mr. Campbell Scott

I will answer Senator Currie's questions about the practical things the Government can do. I picked a couple of points that we touched on during the day to provide what I think would add a little more colour. I understand the limitations of a citizens' assembly in the Republic. Let us have a citizens' assembly with special guests. There are ways we can extend the scope to make sure we get the right people represented. That is critical.

I talked about facilitated dialogue, and just to put a bit more colour on that, coming up to the Good Friday Agreement, sterling work was done by all the politicians we saw on the news day by day, but an awful lot of undercover work went on for years before that. An example is the work done by Martin McAleese with the loyalist paramilitaries in Belfast. That was hugely needed and powerfully impactful. The Irish Government has an opportunity to fund that type of work. It should send people up to meet these people, spend time with them, facilitate and bring them down here.

The other entity I did some work with was the Glencree Centre for Peace and Reconciliation. It is a great mechanism for facilitating dialogue and getting the people who need to be together in the same room in a safe environment with an opportunity to get these discussions going. Those people then go back and influence their communities. That is how change happens. It is not by putting up a single item. If the Irish Government wants to do things, it should fund that type of work, as that would have a significant impact.

I thank the contributors. There was a lot of insight and different points of view, which is what this is really about. Does Reverend Paisley wish to speak?

Reverend Kyle Paisley

There has been a lot of talk-----

I ask Reverend Paisley to hold on a moment as there is a difficulty with his line. I want to check if something can be done about that. Perhaps he could try again.

Reverend Kyle Paisley

Is that a little better?

It is slightly better. We will see. We would like to hear his contribution.

Reverend Kyle Paisley

We are talking a lot about identity today, which is crucial. For some, there is perhaps only so much-----

(Interruptions).

Reverend Kyle Paisley

Even for those who are not as concerned with the issue and are more worried about the economy, I was wondering how it would help if there was a full European-GB arrangement given the amount of trade between the island of Ireland and Great Britain.

I thank the Senator. I am sorry. I have elevated a few people to the rank of Senator. I will be talking to the Taoiseach very shortly. We might expand the number of Senators we have to include all those who have contributed. I thank Reverend Paisley.

I will move on to the next group. I will start with Mr. Pat McArt, who was the editor of the Derry Journal for 25 years and is a former RTÉ employee. He is most welcome.

Mr. Pat McArt

On Thursday, 22 September the Northern Ireland census figures were released. I will not bother to go into a lot of statistics, but they were seismic in two regards. For the first time since the foundation of the State, people from a Catholic background in Northern Ireland outnumbered those of the Protestant persuasion by 45.7% compared with 43.5%. Second, 32% described themselves as British only. That is a massive drop from the 66% who described themselves as British at the foundation of the state.

As I point out in my submission - I will run through this quickly - four out of the six counties already have nationalist majorities. The biggest council in the North, Belfast City Council, is no longer under unionist control. After the Assembly elections in May, for the first time the unionists are no longer the largest party in Stormont. If Stormont is reinstated, which is a big question mark, for the first time unionists will not be entitled to the First Minister's position. According to the rules, that will be in the gift of Sinn Féin.

The point I am making is that it is obvious that we are living through a time of true change. It is an irreversible change and many politicians and pundits across this country and on this island, including across the divide, have openly acknowledged this. Yet as far as I can see, our media and the political establishment are reluctant to face up to that. I will give one simple example. On the day the results were published, Thursday, 22 September 2022, RTÉ's flagship current affairs programme, "Prime Time", did not cover the findings at all. On the same day, the Taoiseach who was in New York also sought to downplay the significance of the results by describing them as "interesting". The Minister, Deputy Harris, took the same line as the Taoiseach when he suggested we should all be cautious about reading too much into these figures. This was in marked contrast to the position of Mr. Colum Eastwood, the leader of the SDLP, and I quote exactly what he said.

This is a seminal moment in the history of modern Ireland. The census figures published today reveal that, by any measure, the constitution of the North has been transformed utterly 100 years on from partition.

If any members of this committee have travelled North in recent years, they will have noticed the growth in the Irish language. Many people in the North frequently use Irish sentences or sayings. I even heard Arlene Foster say "Sin é" the other day. GAA jerseys are everywhere. The BBC's political editor, Mr. Enda McClafferty, suggested it is likely the Catholic designation will surpass 50% within five years. Yet there seems to be no urgency in the Republic to deal with this and address what is happening on the ground. I have done some empirical research and talked to numerous people across the Border. No one has been in contact with the shared island initiative. Anything that is happening is coming from the ground up.

I therefore contend we need a citizens' forum. Academics need to be brought on board. A roll-out of engagement with communities right across the country, North and South, is needed and the right of the people on the island of Ireland to vote for the President should be examined forthwith. Key players in the North should be invited to address the Oireachtas on all matters of all-Ireland significance and a White Paper should be prepared by the Government to outline its draft proposals in the event of a border poll.

Mr. Ciarán Hartley

A Chathaoirligh agus a Sheanadóirí, is mór an onóir dom a bheith i láthair mar chuid den tionscnamh tábhachtach seo ag am stairiúil dár dtír, agus gabhaim buíochas libh as an gcuireadh. I am here as an individual and as a PhD student researching constitutional change in Ireland and identity. Brexit has ignited unprecedented constitutional debate across these islands and forced the Six Counties out of the European Union against their democratic will. Importantly, unification offers a direct path back to the EU, making this Seanad initiative both welcome and timely. As members are aware, the Good Friday Agreement which was overwhelmingly endorsed in concurrent referenda, retains the democratic legitimacy of the people of Ireland North and South. The agreement contains within it a mechanism to bring about Irish unification through a border poll. Critics of unification tell us that a Border poll would be too divisive but referendums by their very nature are divisive. Partition by its very definition is divisive.

Critics of unification tell us now is not the right time, yet the constitutional tectonic plates are clearly shifting. As Mr. McArt outlined, the recent census figures in the North provide the latest indicator of a constitutional trajectory that is gaining momentum. With the loss of a Protestant majority, the Northern polity has now lost its raison d'etre forever. Now is absolutely the right time to begin preparations for the border poll and righting the historic wrong of partition.

There is an onus on the Irish Government to begin detailed preparations. As I suggested in my submission, such preparations should be carried out by a fully resourced ministry for unification to bring forward detailed plans based on the latest data. It is also essential the widest possible views are considered in the planning process through a fully representative all-island citizens' assembly. The building of a new society must be based on robust human rights standards. Any new Ireland must be based on the principles of equality and fairness.

James Connolly viewed Irish history as three eras, which he metaphorically referred to as pictures. The first was pre-conquest Ireland. The second picture was Ireland under conquest. The third was "the re-conquest by the people of Ireland of their own country". We have a blank canvas before us and an opportunity to create a new country in a spirit of generosity and based on the principles of equality and fairness and a society that moves us all forward in confidence and hope. As Connolly continued:

The third picture must be drawn by each, as it suits his or her fancy, who wishes to visualise to the mind’s eye the complete reversal of all that was [constructed] in the second. As they construct that picture of the future, so they will shape their public actions.

May this session today advance the shaping of our collective public actions and the creation of that third picture.

Mr. Seamus Hanratty

In my submission I told a story of how when I was at college 17 years ago, I met a young man from a loyalist background who grew up believing that all us southerners wanted to kill them and how, one night, as we were being chased by a sectarian mob, this young Orangeman fell into a river and it was my hand, a southern hand, that saved him. I was the best man at this Orangeman's wedding 15 years later.

In my submission I raised concerns about ramming a tricolour down the throats of unionists. In the context of this submission I have some suggestions that might help to alleviate these concerns. Vast quantities of money must be pumped into impoverished areas to pacify some of the more extreme elements within the Six Counties. The right of people within the Six Counties to call themselves British and to be legally entitled to a British passport must be copper-fastened and enshrined in any new Ireland. Constitutional protections for unionists and their culture are vital. As has already been touched on, we must forego the national flag in Ireland, which will be a bitter pill for many republicans to swallow. In the event of a new Ireland, some kind of temporary joint rule would be necessary to demonstrate to unionists that we are not the great bogeymen who seek to destroy everything they hold dear.

Some of these suggestions will no doubt be anathema to many traditional republicans but the very utterance of the words "united Ireland" are abhorrent to many unionists. Ultimately, in this great fire-dance of nationhood, we can only hope economics will trump political ideology, compromise will trump dogmatism and empathy will trump small-minded egoism. Finally, I encourage people here to go out and talk to somebody from the other side, rather than living in the echo chamber of their own minds, which this forum could be considered to be.

Mr. Andrew Gallagher

I thank Senator McDowell for his kind remarks earlier and for making my opening speech for me. I think I got confused with my distant cousin sitting in front.

I could go on at length about many things that have been brought up but I will focus on one particular issue I consider important. Most proposals for a border poll as it is commonly understood, will run into a kind of constitutional trilemma, which is that unionists will not help to design their own downfall, nationalists cannot deliver an inclusive settlement without unionist input and Brexit has taught us to never vote on anything before we know all of the details in advance. Any grand plan for unity I have read has always fallen short of one of these requirements and this problem is fundamentally unsolvable. We have to work around it instead.

The workaround is to treat unity as an ongoing process, rather than as a singular event at some point in the future. This means we need to make many changes within the constitutional system we already have, well in advance of any poll or even if a poll is never called, as well as deferring many of the difficult changes until afterwards, when we can get more input from people who perhaps voted no on the initial question.

The border poll will be a critical step in the process but it is a relatively small one compared with the other things that will take place around it.

It is incumbent on the Republic to make itself compatible with unity in advance. It should perhaps even do so unilaterally, if necessary, because getting things done in Northern Ireland is more difficult than it is here. This means eliminating practical impediments to unity and, more importantly, eliminating perceived barriers to the inclusion of non-nationalists in any future conversations. Many people in Northern Ireland, not just unionists, look across the Border at the Republic and at Dublin and they do not necessarily have animosity towards it but they do not see themselves reflected in it; they see something that is other. That needs to change in advance of any talk about constitutional change and a Border poll. We need to move beyond a narrow transactional relationship between North and South and between unionists and nationalists. We need to think in terms of generosity and about being generous towards each other. This is enshrined in law in the North, where it is required to demonstrate parity of esteem between traditions. That was all part of the settlement of the Good Friday Agreement. This is not necessarily a requirement in the Republic, but the Republic should voluntarily introduce parity of esteem with unionism. That would be a valuable contribution to reconciliation. Then, if a Border poll does or does not happen, it would just change relationships that have already been built and rebalance things rather than being a full new constitution in one go. Afterwards, we can have the long-term discussions about what kind of constitutional future we want to build.

Ms Emma DeSouza

It is a pleasure to be here. Brexit has fundamentally changed the political landscape across this island and has significantly brought forward the prospect of constitutional change. We, as an island and a as people, are anything but prepared for where that change may take us. We have no way of anticipating when a Border poll could be called, nor do we know how much time might pass between the calling of a vote and the holding of a referendum. That is why it is so important that work be done now to prepare.

In my submission, I focused on five key areas, namely, education, political institutions, civic dialogue, voting rights and citizenship legislation. I made several recommendations on actions to be taken before and after a vote. For the purposes of this statement, I want to focus primarily on what can be done now.

On civic dialogue, there is a real and pressing need for more spaces and structures for dialogue across this island. In Ireland, as many have noted already, the citizens' assemblies have proven effective at making the case for progressive change but no comparable structure exists in the North. The Civic Forum for Northern Ireland, outlined within the text of the Good Friday Agreement, was to be a structure for engagement, intended to foster better understanding between communities and act as a much-needed bridge between Northern Ireland's combative politics and its citizens. However, it was disbanded after only two years. It would seem perfectly reasonable and rational to reform the Civic Forum for Northern Ireland, in tandem with an all-island citizens' assembly, in 2023, the year of the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement. The fateful reformation of the Civic Forum for Northern Ireland could provide a space to discuss the many social, economic and cultural issues affecting the region. The benefits of meaningful engagement and public consultation cannot be understated. When it comes to political institutions and participation, I recommend to the committee that an effort be made in the here and now to increase the number of northern voices in Dublin. Three seats should be reserved for Northern Ireland in the Taoiseach's nominations to the Seanad, one for each of the dominant traditions. Additionally, political parties should make an effort, in the event of any by-elections, to seek out northern candidates.

On future planning in the event of constitutional change, I have suggested that a transition period be established and that Stormont, as it is now in devolution, end with reunification. In an effort to decentralise, the Chamber should be split between Dublin and Belfast. In terms of inclusion of marginalised communities, I have suggested a unionist panel in the Seanad and the bedding in of using the Taoiseach's nominations to increase diversity and representation.

It will surprise few that I included citizenship legislation in my submission, given my experience. While our case resulted in significant changes to UK immigration law, gaps in legislation remain. Action has to be taken in advance of constitutional change in order to legally protect citizenship entitlements. These changes are not just to protect Irish citizens but also British citizens. Without intervention, British citizenship entitlements would become vulnerable after just one generation.

I have a particular interest in education because the merging of two education systems would present an opportunity to collate best practice and, importantly, would enable a full-scale modernisation of the education system and curriculum. The North has one of the most segregated education systems in Europe, with 93% of schools remaining divided on religious lines. In the South, religion still plays an overbearing role in the education system. Education across the island has diverged significantly since partition, with disparities in school structures, teacher's pay, school governance and assessment. Considerable work would be required to create an all-island education system.

Before I come back to our Senators, I call Mr. Samuel Beckton. Mr. Beckton is a historian with the Newtowncunningham Community Outreach Project, a peacebuilding initiative in east Donegal. You are most welcome, Samuel.

Mr. Samuel Beckton

Dia daoibh go léir. The decade of centenaries in Ireland has been an important period in our lives as historians. It has been a time of cultural reflection and of historical events that need to be reviewed. There have been commemorations for the Ulster Covenant, the First World War, the Easter Rising, the 1918 general election and, last year, the establishment of Northern Ireland. However, there have been some centenaries that have gone or will go unnoticed. In 2020, it was marked how more than 100 years ago the Protestant associations of Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan were established. Originally they derived from the former unionist associations. Once they knew their counties would not be allocated to Northern Ireland, they refocused themselves from unionist interests to protecting Protestant interests. In 1920 they were defensive organisations to bring local Protestant militias together to protect themselves from IRA and bandit raids. Following the War of Independence, protecting Protestant interests took on a new meaning as these associations wanted to give their communities a voice in the Irish Free State. Next year will mark the centenary of when these associations, for the first time, stood a candidate in the 1923 general election. These associations would continue standing candidates for general elections until 1961, and up to 2004 for local elections. This was well into the 21st century and spanned four generations of the Protestant community being involved in these associations. The last Protestant association meeting that was ever held was in Clones in 2016, the same year this capital was the centre of the commemorations for the Easter Rising.

The Northern Irish census, as many have put it, has recently announced a Catholic majority for the first time in centuries in Northern Ireland. Combined with the recent historic electoral victory for Sinn Féin in Stormont, there are many who have the view that a Border poll will occur soon. Even if a united Ireland was to happen, Dublin must realise that the unionist community will not simply disappear. It will evolve and its unique sense of a cultural and political identity and attitude may be present in another 100 years even, just as the Ulster unionists in the Border counties had done. When learning of the experiences of these Protestant associations, the same mistakes may not be repeated. The Newtowncunningham Community Outreach Project recommends and implores this committee that a federal constitution must be established in the event of a united Ireland to allow the people of Northern Ireland limited self-governance to allow all local voices to be heard: unionist; Northern Irish nationalist; and other. The right of dual identity and citizenship should be maintained and widened across Ireland. Article 8 of the Constitution should be amended to allow Ulster Scots to be recognised as the third language of Ireland following Irish and English respectively.

Though it is not our constitutional recommendation, I agree with Seamus that joining the commonwealth of nations would be a good conciliation to unionists in the North. Ulster unionists would have to evolve, whether they like it or not, in the event of a united Ireland but in what manner depends on the grievances they have. Trying to remove their voice, as some in the Border counties believe has happened to Protestant associations, would just lead to hardship, unrest and an inevitable failure to create a truly united tricolour nation. If so, a future centenary on unification will come in 100 years' time but will not be fully commemorated by all in Ireland as it will bring up uncomfortable memories, old grievances and dig up old wounds and questions that many would like to keep buried and forgotten, just like the centenary of the Irish Civil War this year.

Thank you, Samuel. That is a very important note to end our submissions on, in terms of learning the lessons from the past and using those lessons in relation to the journey going forward. Thank you for sending in your submission, which I found very interesting and informative on a little-known part of Irish history that is well worth being highlighted here in Seanad Éireann. I will now invite Senators to speak, beginning with Senator Currie.

Am I first again? I am an easy target today. Is this my last chance to speak?

It is Friday, so if you would like to come back in again, you are more than welcome to do so, as are other Members. We have 50 minutes, if you wish, but if other Members want to come back in-----

(Interruptions).

We are going to have three or four sessions and it is all going to be done relatively quickly. As I said previously, I really want us to produce a report at the end of this process that outlines the options for a pathway to bring this forward.

I thank Seamus for his submission. When I read it, it pressed so many buttons for me and it did so again today because it reminds me why the Good Friday Agreement is so important. It reminds me why we champion it so much and it reminds us all why we are here. Andrew reminded us why it is such an achievement because it manages to square the circle and here we are again, trying to square the circle. I am interested in looking at a system that accommodates as much as possible in both the outcome and the process.

Mention was made of generosity and the need to compromise. Everyone is going to have to compromise if we are going to arrive at a vision. We have focused a great deal on unionism and its compromises. How much are republicans going to compromise? I really want to hear about that, because I cannot help but think we are asking unionists to come and participate in a new system - and I do not mean this in a combative way - but Sinn Féin is not participating at Westminster, and that is part of this as well. I would love to hear our guests' thoughts about that. Who is willing to compromise? This is about a multiplicity of identities. I always use the word pluralism but our guests have introduced me to a new term today. I thank them for echoing all of that today.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile is next.

Go raibh maith agat arís a Chathaorlaigh agus go raibh maith agaibh go léir. These will probably be my final remarks for today. Senator Currie makes an important point in reminding us that this is going to culminate in a report which is as much our guests' as it is ours. That is the strength of this process. We wanted to play our role as a political institution but also as an institution that has previously - and, indeed, currently - benefited from being nationally representative, in the sense of representing Ireland in its entirety in its own modest way. It still has a bit to go yet but nevertheless, it is an important aspect of the Seanad.

I want to take the opportunity to thank everyone for their submissions and contributions. I reiterate what Senator Black said. I encourage everyone to go back and listen to the contributions of the young people this morning. They were really good, as were the contributions this afternoon. We all accept and agree that on this issue, there will have to be compromise. I remember many years ago when I was elected Lord Mayor of Belfast, one of the first visits I made was to my old secondary school. A teacher there who had taught me in primary three and primary four of the bunscoil and had taught me all the way through secondary school from the beginning to the end had his own views on the constitutional question. I remember that he gave me a hurl to put into the mayor's parlour. Written on it, as Gaeilge was "an crann nach lúbann, brisfidh sé", which means "the tree that does not bend, breaks". We all have a bit to go in terms of compromise and understanding each other and the Seanad has a good role, through this committee, in facilitating some of that discussion and helping to inform going forward. I do not want anybody to get the false impression that this is a citizens' assembly. We are trying to play a role in contributing to the larger debate. We are really strengthened in doing so as a result of our guests' input, no matter where they are coming from and no matter what their submissions. Obviously, not everyone who made a submission will have the opportunity to come into the Chamber and present, but we are very grateful for all them. I genuinely hope it goes some modest way in helping to inform the debate going forward.

Senator Mark Wall is next.

I thank all 16 contributors. As I said at the start, this is very much a listening exercise for us. When I agreed to be part of this committee, we were told that there would be a report at the end of it but all reports are only as good as the people that participate in their making. Today has been a great start for us in that sense and the next couple of sessions promise to be very good. The message we would like to send is that we want this report to be inclusive. We want all voices to be heard. We want all traditions and those of no tradition to be part of the report. That is the message that we want to send out today. We need everybody to contribute. We are using the power of the Seanad to ensure that preparation - the one word that has been repeated again and again today - starts for what this island will look like in ten, 15, 20 or 50 years' time.

I have listened to many of the contributors talking about winning the consent of both traditions and how important that is, as well as how important it is to listen. That is the most important thing that we, as a committee, can do. Seamus's story - and so many stories like it - is brilliant. It is about the helping hand that we have had from each side of the divide. I have heard so many stories like that over the years. Seamus's story has brought that home to us again. We need to tell that story again. Nobody needs to be afraid. There is a helping hand for everyone. That is what the Irish people do well. We do well in giving a helping hand. That is what this committee is about. That is what we are trying to do here, in terms of listening and preparing a report.

I did not come in earlier when Campbell mentioned religious influence. Emma spoke about it too. Campbell had not met anyone from a different religion until he was 16 years of age. That needs to change, and change quickly. Many parties and individuals are talking about such change but it will require momentum from us all and from all political institutions on this island. We need to have that conversation quickly. That is a very important point that I have noted today.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for facilitating this meeting. It has been a great start and bodes well for where we need to go. We are going to prepare a report and we hope that report will be influential but most importantly, inclusive.

Senator Black is next.

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaorlaigh. I thank everybody who came in today. I thank them for giving us their time and for making their submissions. I also thank everyone who sent in a submission.

There were more than 100. This work that the Seanad is doing is vital. I did not think too much about it until I was sitting here this morning listening to the young people. I knew it would be good, but listening to the witnesses before us now as well as the young people earlier has been a wonderful experience. All I want is to hear everyone's voice and what people's opinions are. We all want that. The Chairman has driven this process. We only do four sessions. Unfortunately, we did not get to hear everyone's submission, which I would have loved. Perhaps we should consider having an ongoing Seanad Public Consultation Committee so that we can hear as many voices as we can.

I am sorry that I missed some of the presentations, but I had to step out. I am not sure if I am allowed to ask questions, but I wanted to ask Ms DeSouza about her idea concerning having more unionist voices in the Chamber. That would be vital. What would she envision the potential benefits and pitfalls of that being? I will look back on the presentations when I get home today.

I will next call Senator McDowell, whom I thank for attending.

I wish to point something out before the Senator speaks. The Senator wrote an article and was then quoted by the former Supreme Court judge, Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness, in our launch of Seanad 100 this week on Northern voices. His article was on the different constructs and ideas that he has articulated today. It is fortunate that he has been able to attend. He is not a formal member of the committee, but is substituting for Senator Boyhan. I thank Senator McDowell and everyone else for their contributions.

A point made by Mr. Beckton that, as far as I know, had never been made before had to do with the idea of extending the idea of British citizenship across the Border. We talk about it as being within Northern Ireland, but Mr. Beckton pointed out that there were many people on the southern side of the Border who remained British. They were no longer unionist because they were on the far side of the Border but, despite still feeling British, they had been denied that opportunity. It was an interesting idea.

Regarding Northern representation in the House, what the parties to the Belfast Agreement agreed to was that:

... whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities;

If this is part of the Belfast Agreement, which both Governments agreed to, perhaps the two Houses of the Oireachtas should pass motions reminding future taoisigh that this means something when handing out the 11 nominations that the Constitution confers on each Taoiseach on a discretionary basis to ensure that some reality is given to this paper commitment.

Mr. Ian Marshall used to be a Senator. He was a unionist who was elected in a by-election to the House. Unfortunately, he was not reappointed. He was on our Brexit committee and he invited us to Belfast to interact with a large cross-section of social and economic groupings. He brought us to Stormont. I remember sitting in its Senate chamber, which is now empty and only ever used for committee meetings. It occurs to me that, if changes in architecture in Northern Ireland are going to happen, something equivalent or similar to a forum of some kind could be re-established as part of that architecture. I would be interested in hearing witnesses' reactions to this suggestion.

Since I am not a member of this committee and will not be involved in drafting the report, I appeal to its members. They may have their preferences. Some may have a unitary state radical republican perspective, others may have a different perspective, but I appeal to them not to close any door, but to leave every option open. I noted that, on the spectrum from Deputy McDonald to the Tánaiste, both have stated in their own way that they are open to a confederal model. This is not an opportunity to make "the best" the only option as far as anyone is concerned, but to leave open options and see whether we can engender a debate. When there was a proposal to abolish the Seanad, the slogan of the people who opposed abolition was "Open Seanad Éireann, Don't Close It". That is the point - we need to be more open and leave options open rather than being prescriptive.

I will call the witnesses in the order they spoke, starting with Mr. McArt.

Mr. Pat McArt

I listened to Senator McDowell and my friend over here. If 50% plus one is enough to keep the union, how do we sell it to nationalists that 50% plus one is not enough for unity? If there is parity of esteem, surely one community is just as entitled to their view. I am not promoting that, by the way. I am just asking the question.

Mr. Ciarán Hartley

The thrust of my contribution was really about the process. I agree with the previous speakers, in that we cannot enter into the process that we are discussing with any prescriptive or predefined ideas about what the outcomes will be. According to an online Ireland's Future event held in January, a journalist, Ms Aoife Moore, submitted a freedom of information request to the Department of Justice. What she found out was that no contingency plan whatsoever had been made by this Government for a border poll or eventual unification. However, it did have a contingency plan for Scottish independence. There is something fundamentally wrong with that approach. It is incumbent on the Irish Government to start detailed planning now based on evidence, academia, as many different voices as possible and expert analysis.

Mr. Seamus Hanratty

I would be reluctant to say it should be 50% plus one. We have to be tentative around figures like that. There should be some kind of temporary joint rule system to assuage some of the fears of unionists. I know that sounds undemocratic but the inauguration of the Irish State was undemocratic.

Mr. Andrew Gallagher

I will pick up on the point about 50% plus one. The legal test has to be 50% plus one. There is no way that, if a referendum is called, there is a 50% plus one result but it does not pass. We have more choice in our timing, though. We do not have to call a referendum right now when we think we will get 50% plus one. As many have pointed out, if we are looking at the direction of travel, once public opinion shifts, it is unlikely to shift back.

I do not think there is any danger in taking a little bit of time to do things right and get it done properly. I agree with all the others who said that the bigger the majority in favour, the better. While 50% plus one is legal, 60% or 70% would be much healthier for building a stable democracy in the future.

Senator Currie asked about what compromises republicanism could make because we always ask about unionism making compromises. That is the difficult question and I do not have an easy answer for it. Unionists will be upfront and state that they do not want anything from republicanism - they just want to be left alone to live their lives and stop having to worry about constant compromise and change. That is a feature of unionism and has been since it was founded. On the other hand, republicanism, because it is the agent asking for change, has to be the one that makes the proposal. If you are asking somebody for something, you have to offer them something. I do not think the public mood is quite there yet. I read an article in one of the newspapers recently arguing that the Republic is not ready for unity. Part of that is the lack of conversation in wider society. There has been a lot of conversation in forums like this and lots of academic studies done and books published. Richard Humphreys' book in particular is essential reading for anybody who wants to get into the nitty-gritty of how unification might actually happen in practice. The general public are still not quite thinking about it, or at least not thinking in terms of what price we are going to have to pay for unification. From that point of view we are still a good way off.

Ms Emma DeSouza

I will just pick up on that point about compromise and the changes that would have to be made. Constitutional change cannot just be about the South subsuming the North. It will require significant and substantive changes to the State. It will require a new education system, a new healthcare system and hopefully more infrastructure in Border counties like Fermanagh. It will require completely changing the State. There are lots of positive cases for why that is a good thing, for a more inclusive State.

To pick up on Senator Black's point about the unionist panel, that is about ensuring inclusivity and that the voices of the unionist community are heard. This House can be an excellent Chamber for communities that are marginalised. The pitfall of expanding the concept of a unionist panel out to something more, like a Cabinet position, for example, is that it risks placing unionism above other marginalised communities. It is important to remember in this conversation that there are other minorities that are not being heard and need to be accounted for as well.

We are talking about identity a lot in here today. I would caution against a binary British-and-Irish or unionist-and-nationalist narrative or thinking around the North. I am known for being an Irish citizen who took the British Government to court over my right to be accepted as Irish but within my own family there are those who have a British identity, an Irish identity, and both. My father is a British army sergeant and my mother is Irish. I was raised in British army camps when I was younger and I have been raised to have my own viewpoints on being an Irish citizen. I have never described myself as a nationalist. I am a humanist, an internationalist and a social democrat. I did not always aspire to a united Ireland but I do now. Increasingly, there are more and more people coming to that thinking too.

Mr. Samuel Beckton

As the Cathaoirleach pointed out, passports and citizenship would have to be extended across the island of Ireland. In a united Ireland, if that right of the Good Friday Agreement just stayed in the North, then there would be a double standard in place, whereby if someone were in the North it is fine but if they were in the South it is not. If that was extended throughout the island of Ireland it would at least allow for all cultures to be accepted across this island.

We have been talking about the future. Opinion polls are changing but I have to caution the committee. The next decade of centenaries that is coming in 20 years, in 2039 to 2049, will be another time of historical reflection around the Second World War and the creation of the Irish Republic. At that time, divides will be felt again, particularly as the North participated in the Second World War but the South did not. All the policies and the suffering the North went through, especially the Belfast blitz, will be remembered again and those in the South will not be able to understand the suffering they went through. Some in the South did come up to help, such as the brave firemen of the Dublin Fire Brigade who helped with the Belfast blitz. Many others joined the British or Allied armed forces and when they went back South at the end of the war they were treated horribly. We have had recollections of that but how do we commemorate those events in a united Ireland? Will the North be allowed to commemorate such events while the South stays quiet? Sometimes we really need to look at history.

It is the same when we talk about unionists in the Seanad. It is important for all views to be recognised but we should remember the likes of William Sheldon or John Copeland Cole from the Border counties. Though they could not contest their seats because of changes in the 1961 electoral Act, they were allowed for a few electoral seasons to be Members of this fine House, the Seanad. There is a problem in that there is an element of tokenism there that can take away communities' idea of self-respect. Here is a question. How long will that go on for in a united Ireland? Will unionists have a token seat in ten years, 20 years, and so on? How long will people be allowed to have that right before it is gone? That happened with the unionist seats when Ireland was first established and unionists were in the Seanad, before it was abolished in the 1930s. While history is a far different cry, it does have a tendency to accidentally repeat itself if we do not learn from it properly.

I think that is the note to end on. It is about learning from the mistakes of the past and from history and preventing it repeating itself. It reminds me of Séamus Heaney's "hope and history rhyme". The only thing we can hope for is that in some instances history does not repeat itself. That is why we are here, to listen to all the voices and learn from those like Mr. Beckton who have looked at what went on in the past and what should not have happened and try to learn from those mistakes.

Mr. Paisley has sent his apologies. He wanted to stay for the entire session but unfortunately his line broke down. He wanted to stay for all the contributions but they have all been recorded and will be broadcast again on Oireachtas TV. The session was also carried live on Oireachtas TV and is available on the website.

As we have a few minutes left, I will allow Senators in to say a few last words.

The Cathaoirleach knows I love a dialogue. I have two points. On the issue of fear and concerns, the fibre of my political being is about constitutional change and Irish unity. I am unapologetic about that. However, I understand entirely that there are fears out there. That said, I do not think anyone's fear should trump anyone's aspirations and I do not think anyone's aspirations should negate anyone's fears. I live in, come from and have had the privilege of representing a part of Belfast which, when there has been any kind of political destabilisation within unionism or loyalism, has been the first to feel the whiplash of that. I am acutely aware of what people's fears mean.

I do not say that to be glib and I mean it sincerely.

The other point is one I make in this Chamber regularly. Again, I do not want to say it in a combative way but the compromise was the Good Friday Agreement and we all compromised on the Good Friday Agreement. The Good Friday Agreement does not settle the constitutional question; it asks us the constitutional question. We all agreed to that, North and South. That premise, the same spirit that led to the dialogue around that agreement and the same inclusivity should steer this conversation for everyone, no matter where they fall down on the question itself. I thank everybody who attended.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for all of the work that has gone into today. We read the submissions, went through them and decided who was coming, but it was the Cathaoirleach who made sure this room worked today, and we are very appreciative of that. I do not think the Good Friday Agreement asked the constitutional question; I think it left it open-ended. I believe the values that underpin it are compromise, generosity, partnership, inclusion and reconciliation, and of all the words I would like to end on today, it is “reconciliation”.

I will quote a former leader of the Ulster Unionist Party on that note on reconciliation. I had great conversations with Mike Nesbitt, who said that true reconciliation means giving up all hope of a better past. The idea here is to build a better future. I thank all of those present for being part of that discussion about a better future. Wherever we all are in 100 years time, I hope we are all in heaven and that the people who are sitting in these Chambers and living on these islands are living in a better future. That is all we can hope for, and that is part of this discussion and this conversation. I thank you for being part of it. We will present a full copy of the report to all of you. We resume our public hearings next Friday, 7 October 2022.

The select committee adjourned at 4.42 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Friday, 7 October 2022.
Top
Share