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Seanad Select Committee on Scrutiny of Draft EU-related Statutory Instruments debate -
Thursday, 23 May 2024

Engagement with Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs

Apologies have been received from Senators Maria Byrne, Niall Blaney, Maria Sherlock, Lorraine Clifford-Lee and Michael McDowell.

The purpose of today's meeting is to have an engagement with our new Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill. Minister, I welcome you to the committee. Heartiest congratulations on your appointment. It is a very interesting role and a challenging one, especially ahead of 2026, when we will take over the Presidency of the European Union.

This committee has an important role in looking at directives, deciding on them and advising sectoral committees as to whether scrutiny is required. In most cases it is. It is the start of the journey because our committee is less than a year old so, to a large extent, we are finding our feet. We have had a lot of toing and froing with the various Departments, particularly that of the Minister of State. Our job is to ensure as much scrutiny as possible. Certainly, when there are infringements, we believe we have a role. We are changing our Standing Orders to increase the role of the committee in order to ensure that we have as wide a brief as possible and that our committee is as effective as possible. We would be interested to hear the views of the Minister of State on the role of the committee and we look forward to working with her and her officials in the time ahead.

With that, the Minister of State is very welcome to the committee and I invite her to make her opening remarks.

Thank you, Chair, and I thank Senators for the invitation to be here with them for this introductory session. I am delighted to work with them and both I and my officials, whom I know the committee has met in private, really look forward to working with them constructively.

I also know that the committee has met twice with my predecessor, the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke. I want to formally record in my position as Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs my formal support for the establishment of the committee and for its work on the scrutiny of EU-related statutory instruments. I note that the committee wishes to have an introductory meeting this morning to discuss the scrutiny process and to discuss the role of the committee. I suggest that we touch upon some specific areas, including the process of transposing European Union directives under section 3 of the European Communities Act 1972. As the Cathaoirleach has stated, the objectives and the remit of the committee is to scrutinise, potentially, my role as Minister of State for European Affairs, the expected outcome for the Seanad and the different Departments, the role and the interaction between this committee and sectoral joint committees, and how this committee could add value and get what it needs to get from that scrutiny so that the Parliament is playing an important role in our EU affairs. I do not prejudge any of the committee's views and I look forward to discussing these matters with the committee.

There is no doubt that the impact of the European Union over the past 50 years has contributed positively to the lives of Irish citizens. The State's development has been fundamentally shaped by our membership of the European Union. Much of that is by EU legislation where Ireland is part of the Council of Ministers and where the European Parliament has assented through the co-decision process, and this legislation has been shaped in many ways at earlier stages. It is entirely right that the proposals from the European Commission are properly scrutinised by our national Parliament and by national parliaments generally. Many of those proposals are brought forward following extensive consultations, not just at technical level but also with member state administrations and, increasingly, through Europe-wide citizen consultations.

Under the established scrutiny arrangements agreed by successive Governments and the Oireachtas, when a legislative proposal is published by the Commission, the Department of Foreign Affairs ensures that the relevant Government Department provides an information note on the proposal to the Oireachtas within 20 working days. In line with the arrangements which have applied since 2011, the scrutiny of those proposals is mainstreamed to the relevant joint sectoral committee. Sectoral committees may also seek additional information in respect of individual proposals and call witnesses including Ministers. That is an important role for sectoral committees which have developed a body of expertise and knowledge and I certainly think that that is a very important role for them.

The House does occasionally follow through on some of the proposals and issues and raises a political opinion on some of those, often on grounds of subsidiarity. Committees may also provide their observations on any EU proposals to the relevant Minister so that those can be taken into account and whether those proposals are proceeding to relevant Councils for decision. That sort of pre-scrutiny element is very important and I wonder how we can think about enhancing that to provide for the shape for the Oireachtas at earlier stages of development. I would love to get the opinions of the committee members on that.

Once a directive is agreed at Council and subsequently published within the European Parliament, typically member states are given two years within which to transpose it. Following adoption, the room for manoeuvre for member states in any EU directive is fairly limited. The policy choices have been made and the member states very much must bring the directive into force by the relevant deadline.

In any year there may be in the region of 20 to 40 co-decision directives to be transposed. Those numbers, I believe, have fallen steadily in recent years as the overall volume of new legislation directives, in particular coming from the Commission has reduced. In some cases, transposing these directives by primary legislation may be most appropriate and, if so, will fall outside of the remit of this committee. Nevertheless, members will still have a role as members of the Oireachtas. Otherwise these EU directives will be transposed by secondary legislation usually, as I have said, under section 3 of the European Communities Act 1972, which, of course, is the focus of this committee's work.

I understand that when the Government was agreeing to the Seanad proposals for the establishment of this committee, strong advice was received from the Attorney General that the new process should not in any way hinder the completion of regulations by Ministers and Departments to transpose EU directives as failure to do so can inevitably lead to the opening of infringement proceedings. We might talk about infringement proceedings and timing separately but I think it is an important point to note. I wonder in discussion with the committee that the focus on these directives should be as soon as possible after publication because that is when the greatest opportunity is for Ministers to take account of the views of this Seanad committee or, indeed, of any sectoral committees, where these directives may be referred to them for further scrutiny by this committee.

Also with regard to scope, the Government also agreed that scrutiny of statutory instruments providing for technical definition updates, say, for example, the designation of a special area of conservation or, indeed, concerning EU sanctions or restrictive measures are outside of the scope of this new process.

At the recent meeting with officials, the committee asked that in addition to the regular co-decision directives, the committee be provided with information on delegated and implementing directives as these are published. Accordingly, the Department has recently written to Departments asking that the committee be provided with information on all directives which were published during the course of 2023 which, I believe, is some 23 in total.

The committee, of course, is aware that Ireland will assume the Presidency on the next occasion on 1 July 2026. The Department is working very steadily towards that and it is a very important honour for the State to hold that position. The Tánaiste in a memorandum to Government last year tasked Ministers and their Departments to have all EU directives which are due, to be transposed on time by 1 July 2026. That is going to be challenging. It was achieved before in our previous Presidency in 2013 and it was only the second time across the EU that this had been done. It is a very important objective for us and would be a very important statement by Ireland to have achieved that by 1 July 2026 but we will need the help of the committee in the approach that is taken to achieve that and in the granularity of ensuring that it is done. I very much look forward to seeing the expertise and the experience of the esteemed Seanad committee members who are so experienced in this being utilised in helping us to scrutinise draft EU -related statutory instruments, to improve the transposition of EU legislation here in Ireland and, indeed, to achieve that target for 1 July 2026. I thank the committee and I look forward to engaging with members.

I thank the Minister of State very much for her opening statement. We very much agree with her enthusiasm and commitment and a very achievable target to have all of our EU directives transposed into Irish law by 1 July 2026. I now invite colleagues to ask any questions they see fit and I start with Senator Higgins, please.

First of all, I welcome the Minister of State to the committee and it is good to see her in her new role and capacity. I also thank her, in particular, for opening up and talking about the journey of decisions. I think it is an area which is outside the remit of this committee but I feel that it is very complementary to it and could be strengthened in some of its earlier parts in the scrutiny of initial proposals.

Within committees that I am a member of, we have issued reasoned opinions and political opinions on matters, not solely on subsidiarity issues. That is at the point when there are ideas being proposed and floated and is when one can have a significant influence on them.

One thing that can sometimes hinder that is that we often find that the EU directive communications are arriving to the committees post the date of the decision having already been made. Even this week, we had a session where we would usually deal with our reasoned opinions and political opinions in private session and occasionally a matter will get public scrutiny. We had such an example in the finance committee this week where we had a session looking at an EU communication but the money had already been effectively allocated so the communication came to us too late for a reasoned opinion to influence the decision. It was regrettable because there were some significant concerns including subsidiarity and legal concerns. This is just an example of where we might be more effective. I know that on a few occasions the climate committee which I also sit on has also sent political opinions. I know they have been received well and that reports back from Europe indicate they have been regarded as being very useful.

There is, of course, an expertise in a sectoral committee and that is what the EU wants because when one talks to people on the future of Europe or to any person working within the Commission and as part of that process, they effectively want feedback on what will and will not work and why.

Moving forward to when directives and decisions have been made, there is still often a large number of opt-ins or opt-outs even within directives. There are interpretive choices which are left. One of the areas in which I have legislation myself is on public procurement. Again, certain choices were made by Ireland at that time where our public procurement was brought through by statutory instrument and regulation rather than by legislation partly, I think, because it fell between election cycles.

I know we are looking at legislation to see how you can work around choices that were made by, for example, building quality into public procurement in a stronger way. Important decisions are made even after a directive is finalised. I think this committee can give really useful direction in identifying statutory instruments which are coming through or which are planned. There is that early stage. As I said, there are a number of points of engagement. There is the point where we are told that a directive is coming and we engage with the Department about its plans, whether it will be primary legislation or a statutory instrument. It gives a sense of the direction it is going. More importantly, when there is a draft statutory instrument, we can bring it through. In certain cases, we may also happen to have been sitting on the committee that saw it at the early proposal stage, so we can bring knowledge from that.

I do not think there is any example yet of us having delayed any statutory instrument. In fact, I think as a committee that our role will maybe ensure more timely transposition because we are making those inquiries at an early stage. We will ask about the directive and whether it will be primary legislation or a statutory instrument. We will refer draft statutory instruments to sectoral committees where we feel that they need specific scrutiny, so we do not do the scrutiny ourselves per se, but we identify potential areas of concern and then we inform the relevant sectoral committee that there is this draft statutory instrument that we believe would merit its attention. Even prior to that, we are almost saying to sectoral committees, and have said in our communications, that in autumn this year, for example, they will likely be looking at a matter. We are almost building in that space in advance. We are trying to help the flow in that way.

The issue is that some Departments will prepare their statutory instruments in advance and some Departments will be very close to the deadline. I do not see our committee as a delay. If anything, I see our committee as a useful impetus for streamlining the process so that we see Departments preparing their statutory instruments in a timely way and benefiting, where relevant, from the scrutiny of a sectoral committee that can maybe add to that. That way, we may avoid errors in some cases, which is where infringement comes in, and in other cases, maybe non-optimum choices being made and a failure in some cases to be consistent with other areas of Government policy. If people say they have to do the statutory instrument and only have three or four weeks left, that is not the best work that we do. I see our committee as improving the timeliness, including through the fact that in our annual reports, we will be able to highlight if there are Departments which are not sending the instruments for scrutiny on time. It is often those same Departments that may be at risk of not getting them on time at all. I see us as a positive dynamic in pushing that forward. I have individual questions on individual statutory instruments that are pending but I will park some of the individual points or questions I have. I wanted to give others a chance to engage first.

I join Senator Higgins in welcoming the Minister of State to the meeting. I am delighted to have her here. I congratulate her on her appointment. I am aware that she brings a unique skill set, both politically and from her academic past. Her particular academic achievements and areas of study give her a unique skill set for this role. I am confident that she will make a significant difference in this and have a good impact for our country in Europe, which is important. She is welcome and I wish her well.

I agree with the Minister of State's broad point. While it is not specific, it is no harm to state and celebrate the very positive impact the EU has had on our country, in our evolution as a society and areas of social policy and in our economic development. It has had a significant impact in social policy specifically. The directives that we will scrutinise in the future and that have arisen in the past have bettered our society and have been an improving influence on it, whether in the sphere of women's rights, gender equality or the social reforming packages that came through Europe, which were so necessary in this country. I am very well placed. I grew up as a very young child in the time before the EU and I have vivid memories of that time and the transition and evolution of society. So much good has been achieved. It has such a positive impact on our country. We cannot celebrate that enough. I know that is recognised and is reflected in our Eurobarometer. It is worth mentioning on every occasion and I agree with the Minister of State.

The principle of subsidiarity is important. If we are to maintain democratic buy-in and consensus, and prevent alienation, particularly at a time when there are threatening political forces on the right, it is an important time to maintain the principle of subsidiarity. I am proud that when I was Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad, from the first day I came into that role, I advocated for the Seanad having specific involvement in European affairs and dealing with European legislation. I was conscious of that. As part of that process, we had special sessions, as colleagues will remember, with members of the European Parliament for all the constituencies, and good engagement with them. It is something I have always believed. It is very much part of Seanad reform and the development of the Seanad. It is central that we have that EU role. I am proud that my colleague, Senator Martin Conway, is the first chair of that committee that I visualised and hoped would develop. We are delighted that it is in place.

I agree with Senator Higgins that, contrary to being a delaying element in dealing with the directives, we will actually give impetus because the imperative should be there for the directives to come before us and still to go to the sectoral committees as relevant. That imperative to have them come before us to be quickly dealt with here should no doubt be the case. Senator Higgins is right in saying that we are not a delaying organ. Quite the contrary, our committee is a refining organ. These statutory instruments and secondary legislation arising from directives impact so much on the lives of people. Coming from a rural community, the farmers in those communities feel the impact of secondary legislation and statutory instruments. They sometimes feel overwhelmed by unnecessary bureaucracy and so on. For that reason, everything we do here is relevant to both the whole business sector and the entire society.

It is important that the legislation comes through promptly. The Chair will agree that at the beginning of our committee, we spent a fair while engaging in introspection and wondering what our role was. In rural, pastoral society, there is an expression that it is important to feed the pig as well as to weigh the pig.

We cannot go on navel-gazing indefinitely. We will have to start looking at specific instruments and moving them along. I know the Chair will be anxious to do that.

It is a pleasure to have the Minister of State in attendance. Like Senator Higgins, I have nothing more to say, other than those general remarks. I welcome her and I emphasise again my personal delight that this has evolved in the way that it has done, as well as our willingness to work with the Minister of State in every conceivable way to get the right outcomes for the people.

I thank Senator O’Reilly. I take this opportunity to commend him on his continuing work on behalf of our country in the Council of Europe. It is a very important body that has done enormous work over the years and the Senator has played an integral part of that, particularly during his period as vice president of that august body. I now invite the Minister of State to make a couple of comments in response to our two colleagues.

I join the Chair in complimenting the work Senator O’Reilly has done at the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and in all his previous work in that body. I was in Strasbourg last week for a meeting of the Committee of Ministers. It was wonderful to see the Parliamentary Assembly represented there by the current president. It is such a hugely significant body because of its interaction with the candidate states, which are not part of the EU, as well as because of the overall thrust of where Europe as a Continent is going. Of course, its history goes back some 75 years and we will be celebrating that anniversary this year.

I refer to the jewel of the Council of Europe which, of course, is the European Court of Human Rights, although I know it is not aligned with the work that is happening here. We are so very proud that the president of the European Court of Human Rights, Síofra O’Leary, had such an excellent term. I will take two minutes to compliment her work on the European Court of Human Rights. Through her administrative reforms of that court, she has brought the docket down significantly, making it more effective and efficient than it ever had been before, so that the citizens of the 46 countries in Europe are able to access human rights remedies through the European Court of Human Rights.

I was very proud to be told by the president of the European Court of Human Rights that Ireland only has three cases before it. The number has come down considerably, and that is a reflection of the work that has been done in Ireland, as well as the value of the European Court of Human Rights. She gave me the examples of Croatia and Slovenia which, because these countries are members of the European Union, given the focus on the rule of law and on political institutional development, have considerably brought down the number of cases that are before the European Court of Human Rights. This is a reasonable reflection of the quality of political institutions. There are always a couple of variables at the edge, but it is important to say that. I mention this because the role of political institutions in the quality of democracy is important and that is why the work of this committee is important.

This committee sits alongside the sectoral committees in the same way that I, as Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, sit alongside the different sectoral departments at a European level, as well as the detailed work they do. In many cases, we perform a similar function in terms of the EU sitting alongside some of the more detailed work that is being done at the different committees. That does not take away from the political institutional importance of what this committee is doing or of the necessity for that additional scrutiny. This is for a couple of different reasons, one of which, as members have said, is that subsidiarity is a core principle of the EU. I have always been of the view that the democratic legitimacy of the overall Union and its work is enhanced through subsidiarity. We must never forget that. Whether as local political institutions or national political institutions, we must constantly look at what more we can do to enhance those principles.

The work of this committee will be important not just in terms of principles, but also in terms of practicality. As Senators Higgins and Joe O’Reilly have said, we must now get into the detail of the different statutory instruments and different processes. I look forward to being an ally to the committee in that work. I would never regard the work of this committee as in any way delaying. I would like to simply remove that as a concept. This is a proactive committee that can work to enhance scrutiny and efficiency in this State. Certainly, I do not want to be in a position where, because of a lack of granularity, detail or efficiency, we incur infringement costs. I do not want a delay in transposing EU legislation for our citizens. The work of this committee can enhance that.

I am the chair of the interdepartmental committee of EU engagement. There are quite long titles in Europe. The purpose of that committee is for Departments to provide me with exceptional detail about what is happening with each statutory instrument. It will cover what, when and how things are going on. I expect that this committee will enhance my work and my ability to do that level of scrutiny behind closed doors with the different Departments. This committee will help me to do that. If members of the committee have concerns, I ask them to tell me so I can advance them with different Departments. There may be questions of timing, such as in the example that Senator Higgins gave of the committee on finance, where the communication simply came too late. I need to know about that. I need to know the more detailed experience because, as members will know, I will not necessarily get it from other sources. I would ask the committee to work with me. My door will always be open to this committee. Unless I am actively in Brussels or doing something else, it will always be open to this committee to work with it. I ask the members to communicate with me and raise concerns, no matter how small they are. It is the management of the small things that sets the tone and culture for how the bigger things are managed, as members have correctly identified. I think that is probably sufficient, Chair.

The Minister of State is a breath of fresh air. I would expect nothing else from her, having known her for many years. Our Leas-Chathaoirleach was chairing the Seanad during the Order of Business, so he was unavoidably not present for the Minister of State’s opening statement. However, given the fact that he played such a key role in the formation of this committee, I will ask him to say a few words.

I again congratulate the Minister of State on her appointment. The overall rationale for this committee is the extreme democratic deficit and lack of oversight of EU legislation. This is added to by Departments when Oireachtas committees do not see the legislation. That is the fundamental problem and it has been that way for many years. It is often seen to be the case that there is no reward for detailed scrutiny of legislation, and that is why it there is not a huge engagement on it. Yet, we are all then left with the aftermath when legislation is not teased out, as we do with Bills that originate in Departments that deal with domestic issues and are within the competence of the Dáil and Seanad. That is the fundamental reason for the committee.

The problem we face, as has been outlined by others, is shown in how the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan said that he could not allow for the draft to be put online. That is the equivalent of saying we are not allowed to put the Bills that the Houses of the Oireachtas produce online. There is nothing commercially sensitive in this. It is legislation that will affect every citizen, yet we are being told that they want to put the draft online, but the Departments do not, because people and members of the committees will have opinions on them and, as a result, they are afraid they will get it in too late.

I ask the Minister of State to come in again before the summer. What has often happened is that those draft statutory instruments are put before Ministers in July and August. The Ministers are told they have four weeks with which to deal with this. There has been two years in which to do it, but it is given to the Minister with four weeks to go. I will give the example of the organ donor legislation, which I think we had seven years to bring in. The EU directive on organ donation was the only legislation we had on the issue until the human tissue Bill. It was put on James Reilly’s desk in August with three weeks to go and he signed it. It was described as the worst implementation of that directive anywhere in Europe. It was so bad that another statutory instrument was produced by the Department - again, nobody saw it - two years later to amend what had already been done. That is what we are trying to avoid here.

It is not very exciting. It is just legislation, but the impact will be hugely consequential. I will ask the Minister of State to look at the issue of why we are not being given the draft statutory instruments in a timely fashion. We will get some of them with two or maybe six weeks to go. I think there will be one on sustainability.

What we want to be able to do is to give it to the committee but the committees are all going to be busy in the last wrap-up. Timely is having two years to do it, or six months beforehand - not six weeks beforehand. We are concerned. It is all about process. What we want to be able to do is put those up on the website so that the general public and everybody else is able to look at the draft statutory instruments and say that in the absence of any changes, this is what becomes law and if you have a concern with that, then you need to engage with the sectoral committee. Our job is not to do the detailed scrutiny. That goes to the sectoral committee. Our job, along with the other one we are discussing later with respect to expanding the remit of the committee, is looking at where fines are being imposed or about to be imposed, or where letters have been issued by Europe. Our job would be to flag that to the committees and say that we think they should have a concern about that.

I think there are a number of fines - the Minister of State's officials might confirm this - that, literally as we sit here, have been €10,000 a day for months. Some Ministers' feet should be to the flames if it is costing €10,000 a day for a fine, and that is the incorrect transposition of a directive. We are finding that there are more things this committee should be doing because nobody else is doing them and we need the Minister of State's assistance on it. It is not unreasonable that, if there are two years in which to transpose a directive, the draft statutory instrument should be ready six months beforehand.

I thank Senator Daly. Senator Higgins has indicated a second time.

First, Senator O'Reilly is right on the actual fundamental reason for this. I focused on it because you get better legislation. The actual fundamental piece as well - this was clear, coming from the Future of Europe process - is the connect with the public that people see, and the decisions that affect them. They really do affect them. These are very significant. Every decision about transposition can have a real impact.

There is a small one that has passed and gone, like the human tissue Bill. That is the transposition of the directive requiring that PRSI payments might be paid for spouses on family farms. I know that in Ireland, you have to have an independent income of up to €5,000 to be allowed to make those PRSI payments. You almost need a self-employed income to do it. I am trying to find out how many are actually benefiting from that directive that came in. Ireland derogated and derogated, and then transposed at the last minute in 2014. These are small and previous choices. We are not really looking back; we are kind of looking to the future. Basically, there are multiple examples whereby a slightly different choice could have made a huge difference for the public.

That is on the impact but also, crucially, on the accountability. That is why there is that issue of being able to see the draft statutory instruments is important. We are not asking for internal memos. This is literally, as the Minister of State said, having had two, four or seven years to transpose, that six months before the deadline for transposition, there would be a draft statutory instrument. That is basically law. When it becomes a statutory instrument, it is going to be available publicly but then at that draft point, much like a Bill on Second Stage and so forth, it would be there, we can look at it, identify if there are areas of potential concern, flag them to a committee so it can look at them and then gave useful feedback that may improve them. There may be situations where the public can bring expertise. There are very few among the public who necessarily want to go into statutory instruments but there are people who do. It depends. People are not going to look at all of them-----

-----but there are going to be areas where people will have an expertise that they want to bring in. It is important that it is there because members of the public give us our mandate and they are the ones who are going to be affected by the decisions. I think the fact that they would have sight of the legislation that shapes their lives is really appropriate.

I thank Senator Higgins. I am conscious-----

I have specific questions but I do not know if this is the context-----

My understanding from the brief we gave the Minister of State was that it was an introductory meeting. Senator Daly's proposal is that we would invite the Minister of State in again next month, and maybe at that stage we could deal with specific issues.

Sure. I am just saying that we could signal, for example, the kinds of issues. We do not need an answer now perhaps, but we could signal the issues. For example, there is the equal pay for equal work. That is pending very soon. There is the question of the directive on the adequate minimum wage. Will that be done by primary or secondary legislation? These are a few of the kinds of issues that we can perhaps delve into in the next session. It would be useful to get a sense of the plans for transposition with regard to each of those.

The Minister of State might like to make some concluding remarks. I am conscious that she has been here for an hour at this stage.

I would be very happy to, and I thank the Chair. I am very happy to come back in again before the summer. What I would ask is that we communicate. The committee can be quite specific and tell me exactly what it is doing so that I can do a specific body of work with the relevant Departments. This is not something I can do out of my head and I cannot know everything about every Department, so I would like the opportunity to prepare as best I can. If the committee can give me a bit of notice, then I can help it with that as well.

I completely agree with what Senator Daly and all Senators have said around the timing of the publication. With regard to the situation Senators have described, in any situation where a Minister is presented with something, given the scale of legislation and work in some of the larger Departments, it is simply impossible for a Minister to be aware of the development of every single thing at every moment. The Secretary General has a very strong responsibility is this regard. I cannot remember the legislation under which this responsibility is created. It may be the Public Service Management Act 1997. In any event, to be told that we basically have three weeks or else we are overdue is an invidious position for a Minister to be put in. I do not understand why a Secretary General would ever do that to a Minister. It is simply not acceptable and not the way a Department should be run. It is the Minister who has to take responsibility for it but it is really a question for the Secretary General and the management of different Departments to make sure that is done differently. I cannot see any reason there should not be a more timely way of approaching that from a management perspective.

I generally agree, with a couple of exceptions - if Senators do not mind, I am just signalling with regard to broad philosophy - about the publication piece. I would only highlight a couple of exceptions. Where there is an interinstitutional dialogue about the allocation of resources or responsibilities, that is the only piece where I would have a concern. I would want to think about it a bit further and what I suggest is that it should be absolutely the norm and very much the exception that something is not published, rather than the current situation, where some things are not being published in advance. There is a process of institutional shifting that is more open, more timely and tends dramatically towards more publication. I recognise there are institutional processes where that might be difficult but again, that should be dealt with. It should be exceptional and able to be discussed case by case, rather than what Senators are describing now. I appreciate that various Departments might not like that but if it is going to be effective, that is generally the way to do it. However, I recognise there are important exceptions where there are dialogues not yet finished. That is something that should be discussed rather than the door being closed on everything.

There is one point I might make with regard to the democratic deficit. As I said earlier, subsidiarity is an effort to try and rebalance that but of course, we have to remember that we have the European Parliament as well, and that Irish citizens are in the process of assessing European Parliament candidates and electing the European Parliament. It is a co-decision process with the European Parliament, and there are Irish representatives there working on legislation and on the different committees. I would not agree that it is an extreme democratic deficit but I do agree that we can improve our political institution to narrow it somewhat and ensure we have better political institutions in the Oireachtas. That is the work that Senators have done in establishing this committee and, working with me, we can try to make it detailed, granular and effective. The Senators are right; it is not the most glamorous end of political work but it is very important that we are constantly examining our processes, making sure that they are tighter and better, and that it is done in a very open and honest way. I ask the committee to please send me matters of particular concern, ideally the issues they would like to address before the summer. Let me also, perhaps, do more work of my own in preparation for the interdepartmental meeting. It is important, and it will be where I can both gather more information and asked more detailed questions of the different Departments. The we can perhaps have a good dialogue to the best of my ability.

That is fantastic, and I would suggest that with regard to the specifics, colleagues might raise them through the clerk. The committee will then prepare a brief for the Minister of State ahead of her next appearance before the committee. Senator Higgins has indicated.

I have two very short points. One is that it is important we focus a lot on subsidarity.

However, it is not only about subsidiarity. It is also a matter of at all stages, including when we get a communication and when there is transposition, what the best practice and best idea is for Europe. We are transposing at one level but there are also other parts in the process in terms of communications. We are also giving an opinion towards the collective good. That is why it would be very good if Ireland had good examples of transposition and good examples of a process of transposition. It would be very positive for Ireland going into 2026 if we were in a position not just of having transposed - the Minister of State mentioned the deadline of 1 July 2026 for making sure we are completely up to speed on our transposition - but that we also have a quality of transposition and a transposition process Ireland can be proud of going into the Presidency. That could be very positive.

It would be useful to have the dates of the interdepartmental meetings. If we know the timings of those, we can talk to the Minister of State in a way that is useful to her going into those meetings.

I do not have the date yet. That is partly because June is absolutely crazy as we come towards the end of the Belgian Presidency. There are many different moving parts, including the European Council meeting, the General Affairs Council meeting, and the intergovernmental work, particularly on preparation for Ukrainian accession. I do not know what my diary is like, but I will work with the committee to try to make sure that is as effective as possible.

One of the things that would be very helpful for me is identifying the things members would like to talk about. The Senator mentioned good examples of transposition. There are many. We are focusing on the difficult pieces but if the Senator could give me, at some point, what she regards as a good example as a benchmark, that would be a constructive piece to do.

It is also worth setting out the context. We are focusing here on process improvement, but we are doing so from a position of strength. We are the fourth best in the EU at present as regards our transpositions, if the different numbers overall are considered. That does not account for quality, but it is where we are in the overall numbers. We want to get to the absolutely perfect situation by 1 July 2026. We are setting ourselves that objective. That is what we want. We managed to do it once before but that has only ever happened twice in the EU. This is an exceptionally high target that we should have. If we do not meet it, however, we may still only have one or two to go. I am just setting the context. Full transposition has only ever been achieved twice and Ireland was one. It is a good goal but it is also an exceptional goal.

One of the directives concerns corporate sustainable reporting. Its transposition deadline is 6 July but we still do not have the statutory instruments. One of our concerns on that, under the terms of reference, is who lobbied and who sought to have changes. If changes are made to the directive, that is an important part of it. It is not our job but the sectoral committee's to tease that out, but a committee is being asked to scrutinise all that element, which is so important, by 6 July. Again, it is part of the process but we spoke about that issue in December.

I believe that particular deadline has been brought to the attention of the sectoral committee, but it is totally unacceptable.

I thank the Minister of State for her time. We realise how extremely busy she is. We look forward to a very positive engagement and achieving results in the coming months for whatever time is left for this Oireachtas. We wish her well in her endeavours. I will suspend the committee for approximately two minutes to allow the Minister of State and her officials to leave. I thank her officials for being here.

Sitting suspended at 11.34 a.m. and resumed in private session at 11.41 a.m.
The select committee adjourned at 11.53 a.m. sine die.
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