Seanad Special Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union debate -
Monday, 15 Nov 2021

Northern Ireland Protocol and Ongoing Implementation of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement and the Withdrawal Agreement: Engagement with Mr. Maroš Šefčovič

Chairman

I ask members to please ensure their mobile phones are switched off. Apologies have been received from Senators Flynn and O'Reilly. The meeting this afternoon is the Seanad Special Select Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union. I welcome you all to today's meeting with European Commission Vice President Maroš Šefčovič. We have no correspondence to consider. The minutes from our last public session, 2 November 2021 with the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, are to be adopted. Is that agreed? Agreed.

This is the initial privilege notice that I must read out, Commissioner. To our witnesses giving evidence from outside the parliamentary precincts, you are asked to know that you may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, and may consider it appropriate to take advice on the matter. Witnesses participating in the committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to evidence that they give.

Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by you outside of the proceedings held by committee of any matters arising from the proceedings. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. In this regard, prior to making their contributions to the meeting, all members must confirm they are on the grounds of Leinster House. Therefore, if they are directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence, please respect that direction.

Our witness here this afternoon is Maroš Šefčovič, Vice President of the EU Commission for Interinstitutional Relations and Foresight. Commissioner, you are very welcome to our meeting this afternoon. We very much appreciate you giving your time. We value this engagement with you as we know how busy you are and how packed your schedule is. I have no doubt it will provide valuable insight to our members here and the public, as you are the person to the fore on behalf of the European Union, and of course Ireland, in the Brexit process. Commissioner, I hand over to you for opening remarks.

Mr. Maroš Šefčovič

I thank the Cathaoirleach. First and foremost, I thank the members of the committee for the opportunity to exchange views on such important matters as the implementation of the EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement, the Trade and Cooperation Agreement and of course on the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland. It is very important to underline that the EU's overarching objective is to establish a positive and stable relationship with the United Kingdom. We remain partners with shared values and will have to take a number of global challenges side by side. However, I worry about the rhetoric and action of the UK in regard to the implementation of the agreements, and in particular the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland.

I would like to reassure the honourable members of the committee that the EU is fully committed to protecting the Good Friday-Belfast Agreement in all its parts. That is why the EU continues to work relentlessly to find workable solutions to the problems created by the UK's decision to leave the EU. The protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland seeks to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, thereby enabling smooth functioning of the all-Ireland economy, protecting Ireland's place in the EU's Single Market and safeguarding the Good Friday-Belfast Agreement in all its dimensions. We are working very hard to protect all these aspects.

The UK put forward its common paper in July calling for the full renegotiation of the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland. We will not renegotiate the protocol and we made it clear that the European Parliament and our member states will continue to support it. It represents the compromise the EU and the UK found after long and difficult negotiations on an orderly withdrawal from the Union, and we believe the solutions can be found within its framework. In turn, we engage constructively on legitimate issues of concern to people and businesses in Northern Ireland and we will continue to do so. In this context, the Commission put forward a package of bespoke of solutions on 13 October, addressing the main issues raised by people and businesses in Northern Ireland, namely a long-term solution for the supply of medicines to Northern Ireland. The proposal is to strengthen the role of Northern Ireland's stakeholders and authorities in the dealings of the protocol. We also proposed a long and comprehensive solution in the sanitary and phytosanitary, SPS, area, resulting in the removal of more than 80% of the identity and physical checks previously needed. In the same way, I point to our proposals for further facilitation and simplification for east-west trade in the customs field, where we proposed a 50% permanent reduction in all paperwork.

Since the publication of those measures, the Commission has engaged in intensified discussions with the UK to identify common ground for a way forward. Last Friday, I held my fourth weekly meeting with David Frost on the EU package of solutions. I acknowledged and welcomed the change of tone of this discussion compared to previous ones. I hope that this will lead to tangible results for the people of Northern Ireland.

After weeks of intense discussions, we need the UK to reciprocate the big move the EU has made. The EU has taken big steps to find and provide solutions to concrete problems faced by Northern Irish people and businesses on the ground as a consequence of Brexit, which was chosen by the UK. We have put particular emphasis on the issue of continued supply of medicine to Northern Ireland. I would like to say in front of you that I stand by my commitment made during my visit to Belfast in September that I will do whatever it takes to address this issue in line with what industry tells us. We are ready to amend our own rules to solve this problem. Of course, I would prefer to have a joint solution with the UK on this issue, but we need to move quickly. We would be glad if the UK changed course and began to engage. We are always willing to find solutions.

We will not speculate at this time whether the UK will trigger Article 16 or not. However, it is clear that if it were to do so, the EU would have to consider all tools at our disposal. Technical discussions will also continue this week with particular emphasis on medicines and customs.

Our teams are meeting this week and David Frost and I will meet again on Friday in Brussels.

The Trade and Cooperation Agreement, TCA, will have been operating for a full year at the end of December. I am glad to say by that time all of its joint bodies will have had their first meetings, including the partnership council and all sectoral committees, of which there are 19. While we are closely following the implementation of the entire agreement, these past few months have been especially busy in regard to fisheries, as we work to ensure that the UK delivers the necessary licences to our fishermen. We continue to negotiate with the UK on fishing opportunities for 2022 and hope to conclude in time and in a satisfactory manner.

We remain vigilant across all level playing fields areas, from subsidies to labour and regulatory matters. The EU also remains committed to supporting the member states and sectors most affected by Brexit through the Brexit Adjustment Reserve, which amounts to more than €5 billion. We expect money to begin being disbursed before the end of the year. It will soon flow to the regions and sectors where it is most needed, helping the businesses, workers and local communities most affected by Brexit. Ireland is the member state most affected by Brexit. It is, therefore, only right that it receives the highest allocation of any member state from the Brexit Adjustment Reserve. This amounts to more than €1.165 billion at current prices. This is yet another example of the EU's unwavering commitment to, and solidarity with, Ireland.

To conclude, the talks on the Ireland and Northern Ireland protocol are ongoing. Judging from my experience, and looking across the board at all of these negotiations, I am convinced that we must remain firm in our relations with the UK as we have been in recent months and years. We also have to remain calm. Above all, we must stand united vis-à-vis the UK. The EU will be unwavering in our solidarity with Ireland to ensure a positive outcome for citizens on the island of Ireland. We hope that the UK will choose the path of engaging to find solutions and not that of confrontation. I am convinced this is in everybody's best interest.

I conclude my introductory remarks and I look forward to a fruitful exchange of views with the committee.

Chairman

Thank you very much, Commissioner. You have delivered a very strong and clear message on the position the EU has adopted under your leadership in terms of these negotiations. We share your concern around the rhetoric and actions of the UK, and we feel very much to the fore in terms of the negative impact of those actions. Thank you for your work and engagement, particularly on Northern Ireland. It is very much noticed and we are very impressed with the level of work that you have undertaken engaging with businesses and citizens. It is clear to us here in Ireland that you have a deep and genuine understanding of the issues in Northern Ireland and on the island as a whole. We very much appreciate that. You have gone above and beyond what would have been expected in terms of your work and we do appreciate it.

Now we will have questions from our members. I call Senator Dooley.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I thank the Commissioner for his engagement with us here in the Irish Parliament. It is most welcome. We appreciate the fact that he has identified the real concerns of the Irish people in every opportunity he has had. His work, as the Chairperson rightly identified, has been exemplary and we appreciate it.

Looking at the way the British have negotiated this process and looking at the package of changes the Commissioner has brought to bear in recent weeks, most observers will recognise that the changes resolve most of the issues that have been raised by the business communities in the North of Ireland. If the British Government is to trigger Article 16, would the Commissioner characterise that as the UK having negotiated the original withdrawal agreement in bad faith?

Will he elaborate on the comments he made on his engagement with David Frost, in which he said there was a change of mood - I think that was the term he used - or certainly a change in tactics? That would be helpful.

Mr. Maroš Šefčovič

I appreciate the Senator's questions. As he rightly pointed out, we based our package of proposals for 13 October on extensive discussions with Northern Irish representatives. We are in regular contact with business leaders on a technical level, but I also make sure that I try to talk to them every four to six weeks, and now our contacts are even more intense. What I hear from them is a call for the EU and the UK to resolve our differences, to give legal clarity to business leaders and to make sure that we will provide for stability and predictability in Northern Ireland. They see that as the best contribution we can make to peace, reconciliation and to the future of Northern Ireland. They are increasingly aware of the opportunity of businesses in Northern Ireland to access the Single Market. We are getting clear inquiries about possible investment in Northern Ireland, and about setting up shops and distribution hubs in Northern Ireland. To be in both very important markets at the same time is indeed a unique opportunity. I also recognised very clearly that there is an issue for those businesses that did not think about or have not been active in exporting and importing with the EU Single Market and have been focused on Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or east-west, trade. Therefore, I was listening very carefully to this preoccupation and hence through that discussion we came up with the 80% reduction in the sanitary and phytosanitary, SPS, checks and the 50% cut in red tape when it comes to customs clearance.

On the discussion with Lord Frost, we have received extensive inquiries from his side over the past four weeks. We have received many questions on how this would work, what it would mean and about the cuts and reductions we presented in our communication. My best answer to this question is that we know the Single Market well because we set the rules, we implement them and we look after how they are respected.

We know what we are talking about when we say there is an 80% or 50% cut in respective checks.

Instead of having circular theoretical discussions, I suggested that this week we should focus on two particularly pressing issues, the first being medicine, because this was the number one issue for everyone I talked to, as well as the business community. We are under time pressure and I simply need to guarantee the uninterrupted supply of medicines to Northern Ireland and to other countries in the EU such as Ireland, Malta and Cyprus. We are listening very carefully to Northern Ireland but also to UK officials and to the pharmaceutical industry, with which we have had extensive consultations. It was my suggestion to Lord Frost that we should focus like a laser beam on the issue of medicines and give our experts - our technical teams - a very clear political mandate and task. I hope by Friday when we see each other they bring us an agreement because I think we are that close to it. I hope this will happen. Our technical teams will talk and I sincerely believe we should advance on this matter. Otherwise, because of the time issue, I would have to look for another way to solve this. I want to make sure we have a solution to the uninterrupted supply of medicines to Northern Ireland before the year expires.

The second item which we agreed upon was to move to very concrete discussions on the legal text. Only the legal text will reveal where there are any shortcomings. I suggested that another detailed discussion on the legal text should be on customs formalities. With Mr. Michael Gove, David Frost's predecessor, we adopted the decision by joint committee on 17 December. If the proposed 50% reduction of customs formalities is put in place, we would be required to amend that joint committee decision. Let us work on that and work on the concrete text. Let us work on how to translate our proposal and our commitment into a concrete legal obligation. Then we will have another problem solved. Our UK partner suggested we should also look at VAT and excise taxes, and I said we are ready to look at everything that it is within the protocol. We demonstrated very clearly we have a lot of creativity, that we listen to real problems on the ground and we are ready to solve them within the protocol.

Senator Dooley referred to the change of tone I appreciated after the meeting with David Frost. Indeed, it was a much better meeting than we had the week before. We focused much more on the concrete agenda and we did not focus on Article 16. That is my preference for the future, to look for constructive solutions and demonstrate by our actions that we are here for the people of Northern Ireland, that we know how to solve this issue and we can do it within the protocol. I appreciated this, even though I know David Frost and his team keep Article 16 as one of the options on the table. I appreciated the change of tone and I hope it will still be guiding us this week and in the meeting we will have on Friday.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the Commissioner for all of his work. One thing that is evident is the solidarity that has been shown across all of the European Union member states throughout this process, in particular about recognising the importance of the Single Market and the Good Friday Agreement. We are very grateful for that.

I have three questions. The Commissioner mentioned the Brexit adjustment reserve fund, which is very welcome, to support those businesses that have been impacted by Brexit. Quite a number in Ireland will benefit from it. If there were to be a breakdown in the trading arrangement and a trade war were to develop, unfortunately, something we obviously do not want to see happen, will the Commissioner give us some assurances in terms of supports for businesses that may be impacted in Ireland and in other parts of the European Union?

Agreements are written on paper, but much is based around trust. There has been, clearly, a diminution of trust between the EU and the UK over a period. What can we do collectively as parliamentarians to enhance the levels of trust between the European Union and the UK?

Something that contributes in a major way to that lack of trust is the problem with some elements of the UK media that have spread for more than 40 years and continue to spread misinformation and disinformation about the European Union. Of late, they seem to be doing everything they can to undermine co-operation and the trade and co-operation agreement. How can we send the message to those sections of the UK media that the sky is not falling in, that the European Union is very united on these issues and they also need to tone down their rhetoric?

Mr. Maroš Šefčovič

I thank Senator Malcolm Byrne for his comments and questions. On the Brexit adjustment reserve fund, as I said very clearly, Ireland is the most affected country and getting the largest share, and rightly so. We are doing our utmost to disburse the money before the end of the year. This money is coming and I am sure it will be distributed shortly in Ireland. The aim of the Brexit adjustment reserve fund is to deal with the immediate consequences of Brexit, and the people on the ground will really appreciate that financial support.

After that, we will do our utmost to avoid a trade war or a dramatic development. As I explained to my British counterparts, if we were to go down that line, we would aggravate the situation. We would go through a very difficult period and it would again be up to us to pick up the pieces afterwards, and it would be much more difficult and much more complicated. Therefore, we are focusing on and putting so much energy into finding the solutions to stay at the negotiation table. It is strenuous and not always easy to show all that flexibility and creativity, which we still hope will be reciprocated by our UK counterpart.

What members can do, and this is where their role as parliamentarians would be extremely important, is to engage with their colleagues in Westminster and to communicate with them on different levels and to bring their perspective of the issue, to give their assessment of how the peace process is becoming more fragile, to say how important the situation is right now and to outline the good solutions we have to work for. I think that it would be extremely important for parliamentarians to meet their counterparts from the UK Government and to have these committee-to-committee discussions and to simply bring their view of the situation to the forefront. Members have very close contact with the legislative assembly. I do this also, in that I communicate with all political leaders in Northern Ireland and I present to them on a personal level the commitment, the energy, the goodwill and the really good faith we put into these negotiations. The more we can multiply the approach, the more we can get our story across.

Concerning the UK media, of course it is very difficult turf. I very much appreciate the help and the outreach which is done by the members' compatriot and my very good colleague, Ms Mairead McGuinness. We are communicating quite a lot, even though it is not easy to match the frequency and appearances of the UK politicians because of that natural audience. We are engaging in a press conference and in television discussions. We are trying to be as active as we can be through very concrete documentation and press releases and through transparency. We put whatever we propose on the website so everybody can see it, and we will continue in that manner. Very often the media are also interested in the points of view and in specific aspects and angles the Members of the Parliament are bringing to the discussion. I invite all of the committee members to help us to communicate these messages because their perspectives would be very much appreciated and respected in the UK, and would have additional weight.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Like my colleagues, I would like to begin by acknowledging the Commissioner's level of engagement in the North. Being from the North of Ireland and being elected to the Seanad, I am very conscious of that level of engagement. I am conscious of the importance of that. It is important that we take the opportunity at this meeting today, as a committee, and indeed as Members of the Oireachtas, to reiterate the fact that any triggering of Article 16 would create a huge level of uncertainty and instability in a period that is already unstable and uncertain, and I acknowledge the earlier remarks about the language being toned down slightly, but if it is, it is only slightly. David Frost told the House of Lords that peace in the North could be at risk if the EU were to retaliate in what he called a disproportionate way. He also said that the huge increase in trade North to South was a problem that needed to be solved. It is important that peace in Ireland is not a commodity. It is not to be traded 23 years after the Good Friday Agreement, which is a cornerstone of the peace process. It is important to make the point that the people of Ireland are going forward; they will not be dragged backwards. Those kind of threats and that kind of rhetoric around the protocol is being translated into street disorder in recent times around Belfast, the city that I live in. That has to be condemned and it is important we all take the opportunity to do that again this afternoon.

It is worth pointing out that the majority of people in the North voted to remain. They voted against Brexit. A majority of political parties, a majority of our society and a majority of the businesses the Commissioner is no doubt engaging with all see Brexit as the problem and see the albeit imperfect protocol as a protection against that problem, which was not of our making.

In the context of the questions I will ask, it is important to understand that the British Government is continuing to act in bad faith. It is breaching trust, acting irresponsibly with the peace process, flouting international law and using inflammatory and incendiary language. Our people and our society, as well as the gains of the Irish peace process, cannot be taken for granted or become collateral damage in whatever is playing out within the Tory Brexit shambles. That is why it is so important that the Commissioner has been engaged so regularly and consistently. I am also conscious of further international solidarity from the United States and from the other EU capitals.

The myth that the protocol is hurting the economy has to be dispelled. I am very conscious of the Commissioner's live role in terms of any negotiations and engagement. What is his view on how can the European Commission assist the Irish Government in ensuring that some of those myths are dispelled? I have been asking the Irish Government to engage more regularly and forthrightly with businesses in the North and South to ensure that the opportunities, protections and insulations of the protocol are known to the people who are engaged in business and to broader society as well.

Some seem to misunderstand what the triggering of Article 16 would do in a practical sense. Some of what would happen has been lost in that inflammatory language and in some of those myths that are being created around Article 16 on the protocol. For the information of our committee and anyone who is watching the meeting - I know many people are quite interested in the meeting today - what would the triggering of Article 16 mean in a practical sense? We all know and can agree that it does not, will not, and should not mean an end to the protocol itself. Is é sin mo mhéid. That is my contribution, Chair. Thank you.

Mr. Maroš Šefčovič

I appreciate the Senator's insights because he lives in Belfast. I had the opportunity to visit Belfast in September and it was a very important visit for me. We had two days full of meetings with civic society, business leaders and political leaders, but I also had the chance to talk to the brave and courageous women from the Shankill Women's Centre, to the people in the street and the students at the university. They had a huge impact on me and on the thinking of our team, in seeing how important this is. Peace was never taken for granted in Northern Ireland, but there was a calm after the Good Friday Agreement, and it is suddenly being discussed again. It is our huge political responsibility to listen to these voices and do our utmost to consolidate and stabilise the situation and to resolve the most outstanding issues the people in Northern Ireland are telling us about.

That was how I based my response. I heard about the medicine supply everywhere. I heard a clear wish and a request for us to do our utmost to reduce and cut the red tape for customs clearance, to reduce the sanitary and phytosanitary, SPS, checks and to find the best way to involve Northern Irish representatives in the dealings on the protocol. That was the logic we followed, and if we can deliver on these four areas, it would create the positive political momentum that would help us to solve other problems.

We need to see that there is also good faith from the other side, that there is an engagement and that there is a step towards us so we can resolve these issues. We thought that by November of this year, we would not have to come back to this. In the negotiations with the UK, there was a very clear sequence. First we had to settle the orderly withdrawal of the UK from the EU, so our attention and focus was on the withdrawal agreement. Then we had to find a lasting peaceful solution for the island of Ireland, which was the most difficult chapter to negotiate. Although in the end, we succeeded in the form of the protocol for Ireland and Northern Ireland. Then we proceeded with the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, TCA. If we were to find ourselves in the difficult situation of Article 16 - I would not like to go into hypothetical scenarios, because hopefully we can prevent it, and we do not know how the UK Government is intending to do this - it is quite clear that it would have very serious consequences for Northern Ireland. I felt clearly that people wanted us to solve the problems, to calm down the situation, and to offer legal certainty, calm, peace and predictability. We definitely would not achieve that through Article 16. It would also have serious consequences for our relationship with the UK. The sequence was the withdrawal agreement, the protocol, and then the TCA. What would the TCA hang on and on what would it be based, if these two founding stones were suddenly pulled out? That is why we put so much effort into providing concrete solutions.

The Senator is right that this issue is very important not only for EU institutions but for all the capitals. I talk regularly to the Council. It features regularly at the General Affairs Council. It is part of the President of the Commission's discussions with all Heads of State and Government. The Senator is also right in that we are getting a lot of inquiries from the United States, from Congress and the Administration. It was also an issue on the agenda when the President of the Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, met the President of the United States, Joe Biden, just a couple of days ago. That is how high the political game is, and therefore it is important to match it with our political responsibility to deal with this issue.

On busting the myth, I agree that we can always do better. A good thing to do would be to increase our communication and be very transparent. I appreciate the close co-operation with the Irish Government on all levels. I will have a lunch tomorrow with Minister of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney, here in Brussels. We are in regular contact. There are also regular contacts with the Taoiseach and our President. I stress that I very much appreciate the enormous help of Commissioner McGuinness because she is very good with the press and the stakeholders. We are co-operating on all issues very closely. This is the best answer I can give at this stage because we still think that energy spent, especially political energy, should be focused on positive developments on the future. This is our primary focus in our discussions with the UK.

Senator Barry Ward

I dtús báire, gabhaim buíochas leis an gCoimisinéir as ucht an mhéid oibre atá déanta aige ar an ábhar seo. Tá an t-ádh againn duine cosúil leis a bheith againn ag déileáil leis sin, duine a dtuigeann cé chomh tábhachtach is atá an cheist seo. At the outset, I thank the Commissioner for the work that he has done. We are incredibly lucky to have somebody who has invested time, listening to people and understanding the issue. We are very grateful for the amount of work he has done to resolve this. I am very encouraged by what he said about there being a change in the tone and it is encouraging to hear that he is committed to resolving this situation. Is the Commissioner optimistic that this will be resolved, although he may not be willing to say it at this juncture? I do not know if that is something we can say at this early stage. We all hope we get a resolution about which all parties are happy. Given that the way Article 16 is being used by one side to these negotiations is like a sword of Damocles or like children who are threatening to take their football home instead of playing with the other children, can we have faith in a resolution? Can we have faith that if we arrive at an agreement that is satisfactory to all parties that it will endure and last?

I also welcome what the Commissioner said about encouraging parliamentarians to have contact with their British colleagues, particularly their Westminster colleagues, to convince them of the importance of resolving this situation. Irish parliamentarians are doing that all the time. However, is that a message we should be sending out to our European colleagues throughout the Union and not just in Ireland? I thank the Commissioner for his time and efforts.

Mr. Maroš Šefčovič

It is very difficult to characterise my mood in approaching this negotiation because I have the utmost sense of duty and obligation to succeed. I characterise my approach as very realistic. What I mean by that is that if our partners from the UK engage, and I hope that we will see more of it this week, then I am absolutely convinced that we can resolve all the issues which are troubling people on the ground. We can solve the issue of medicine in a durable manner. Our legislative proposal is ready and I can put it on the table this week. However, I still want to do it by taking a joint approach with the UK. If the UK has any additional realistic elements, we are ready to adjust it and to present it. We can solve the issues of market authorisation, batch testing, regulatory functions, cancer drugs, or veterinary medicine - you name it. There was quite heavy lifting. We have an answer, and a good answer, for everything. We really can solve it and, therefore, I hope that the results of the discussion of our technical teams this week will lead to political understanding on both sides. For example, this one is so that we can proceed with the legal process to make sure there will be no gap whatsoever as of 1 January and an uninterrupted supply of medicine. That is the example and litmus test for all of the other files we have on our table. In the same way we solve the medicines issue, we can solve the reduction of checks issue to make sure east-west and North-South trade is smooth. The business community is aware of it because we have been talking to it about what it believes needs to be done, what would help it to operate and benefit from the opportunities the protocol brings, and also how to reduce the nuisances that Brexit brought to Northern Ireland. We are working on both, namely, how to amplify the opportunities and how to reduce the problems created by Brexit. That is the approach and I hope that we will see the engagement from our UK partners.

To be fair to members' colleagues in the European Parliament, the issue of the EU-UK relationship, and especially the protocol, is permanently on the agenda. I am a very frequent guest at the UK co-ordination group, which is a special parliamentary group created for overseeing what we do in our relationship with the UK.

It regularly features in all our discussions and I know that colleagues from national parliaments are very much interested in it. However, in the field of communication and bringing members' unique perspective, they can never overdo it, so I would support their idea to increase the outreach to their colleagues in Europe. It would be extremely useful for their assessment of how the whole trade agreement is seen, especially by the coastal states in the EU, and to discuss it with the Spanish, French, Belgian, Dutch, German and the Nordic colleagues because we share the most immediate issues on the table with these countries, such as fisheries, transportation issues, the checks, and all the things which we are currently discussing with the UK. It would be appreciated from their side. They would definitely welcome members' angle, view and their highlighting how important this is, especially from the peace perspective in Northern Ireland.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner. Three members remain and time is running out, so I ask members to be as brief as possible with their questions. I call Senator Erin McGreehan.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I welcome the Commissioner. As someone who lives on the Border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, I very much appreciate the work that the Commissioner and his officials and the Commission have been doing in recent times. There is an old 17th century saying Perfidious Albion which relates to the disingenuous way that the British Government and British Monarchy have acted in international diplomacy. Unfortunately in Ireland we are very well aware of the disingenuous nature of the British Government towards Ireland. I have a few brief questions. This Commissioner has touched on this but how far can the British Government move the goalposts before the trade and co-operation agreement comes into question? Is a plan B prepared in regard to a renegotiation of that trade and co-operation agreement? What is the opinion of the Commission in regard to the democratic deficit and with the lack of representation there is in Northern Ireland and the lack of a future pathway in the protocol to give Northern citizens that representation they deserve as equal EU citizens? How important is our friendship with the US Government and the President of the United States in the negotiations? We are entering a very critical time and in my opinion the influence is strong, but how strong is that from the perspective of the EU institutions in these negotiations?

Mr. Maroš Šefčovič

I thank Senator McGreehan for her questions. My first stop when I was visiting Northern Ireland was to visit the Border community at Flurrybridge. For me, seeing the film of the community 20 years or 25 years ago, and comparing it with the thriving business community there now, was like day and night. Anyone who has any doubt about the importance of what we do here should see that short video to see what kind of difference it makes on the ground. It would put the importance of the issues we are debating into very sharp and fundamental perspective.

When it comes to moving the goalpost, indeed, it is not easy. We need this discussion with the UK because sometimes I have a feeling that when we come up with the solution to one problem, additional problems are brought to the table. Therefore, because I did this sort of negotiation before, my personal experience is you have to generate the momentum and you have to show that you can not only bring problems to the table but you can take them off it by solving them. That would be my approach. We do not have to solve everything at the same time but we have to solve them one by one, rebuild trust, show that we can do it and develop that momentum which is needed for the difficult questions.

When it comes to the dealing with the protocol, clearly the most democratic test of the functioning of the protocol would be the democratic vote in 2024, and eventually then every four years when the Assembly will decide the fate of the protocol. Therefore we have to demonstrate to the people in Northern Ireland that it works, that it is useful, that it creates jobs, that it brings new growth, that it generates investments and that it improves the situation on the ground. That is the aim.

We listen to the calls for better participation of the Northern Ireland stakeholders in the dealings on the protocol through the consultation working groups and through the special consultations we are ready to do for Northern Ireland where they can present their unique perspective on ongoing or future legislation and where we would have this special way of communicating with them. There is huge interest in the European Parliament to talk to the Northern Ireland MLAs but at the same time I am fully aware of the sensitivities around this issue and, therefore, we want to have oral agreement with the UK and with Northern Ireland representatives. There is much we can do. We presented some of the ideas in our papers and we are ready to go very far if we have this line of thinking and to approach it from this positive angle. The most precious currency in dealing with the UK on this issue, and we have plenty of it, is unity of European Union. The issue on the table is not only important for Ireland or the European Commission, it is important for all EU member states that we still have the same guidelines by the European Council, which is the summit of the Heads of State and Government who gave us very clear lines, a clear mandate on how we should engage, what our priorities should be and what the most important issues are and we are following them. I am very glad we have that very clear unwavering support for a constructive approach and solidarity with Ireland. It is very clearly based on the Single Market but also on all that flexibility demonstrated vis-à-vis Northern Ireland.

Senator Martin Conway

I thank the Commissioner for his time. It is an excellent engagement this morning and I thank him for all he is doing on behalf of our community. I have a couple of quick questions. Listening to the engagement, has the British Government brought anything positive to the table? Outside of the change in mood in the last couple of weeks, which is extremely welcome, it appears to me that the Commissioner is bringing positive, creative proposals in order to try to get a deal over the line. Is the British Government actually making any genuine efforts to bring creative solutions to our shared problems and challenge? Also, and not wishing to sound negative, has the Commission prepared for the triggering of Article 16, if that was to happen? Is there a contingency plan in place?

Is there a plan B? What are the Commissioner's thoughts on that? We would be very interested because, to be quite frank, it is very hard to take the British Government seriously, even with the positive mood changes. That is why the sceptic in me would like to think that we have a very comprehensive strategy prepared if Article 16 were to be triggered.

As the Commissioner said, this is affecting coastal communities and countries. We have seen what has happened in France. What level of engagement do he and his officials have with other European countries? Do they realise the seriousness of what is happening here? Are they as up-to-date as they should be and are they being briefed accordingly? Is there anything that they can do to assist the Commissioner in the important work he is doing?

Chairman

Commissioner, I am very conscious that we are almost out of time. I will ask my questions now and allow you to answer all of them together. Fisheries and our fishing communities is the one area where there is still a lot of upset in Ireland. The piece of the Brexit adjustment reserve fund that we are getting is significant, and we appreciate that. It will go a long way towards assisting the fishing communities. However, there is a longer term issue around the viability of those communities over the next number of generations. I ask you to take that back with you in your work as something to consider further down the line.

Members share the frustration, which Senator Conway expressed in his questions, with the United Kingdom and its approach to these negotiations. At times you would have to question whether there was any interest on that side of the table in actually getting a solution and resolving the issues. The proposals the Commissioner made around the protocol for an 80% reduction in checks were significant, as he said. They went a huge way towards resolving the vast majority of practical issues on the ground, and the business community in Northern Ireland is telling us that. There is much frustration around what the true intention of the UK Government is in these negotiations. Is it intending on prolonging and having a protracted fallout or disagreement for other reasons? We just do not know and there is much frustration around that. What is the mood among other Commissioners and at Council level among other Heads of State and Government? I can imagine that patience has been tested. We know there is huge solidarity there with Ireland and we have seen that over the last number of years. However, there is only so far you can push people. When you go back to your colleagues in the Commission and when you engage at Council level, what is the mood music like in that space?

Mr. Maroš Šefčovič

I thank the Chair and Senator Conway for their questions. Looking at the positive elements, since the unilateral measures in March, there have been no negative surprises coming from the UK side. We established regular contact with David Frost. Our talks are clearly not easy, but despite the odds and difficulties, and sometimes very tense atmosphere, we continue to talk. We engage, and the same goes for our teams. I fully understand the frustration the Chair was referring to. The permanent highlighting of Article 16 scenarios by the UK side was definitely not helping this atmosphere either. We have to be professional, responsible and very realistic, and therefore we are preparing for all scenarios. Whatever the eventuality is, we will be ready for it. However, we do not want to aggravate the situation by speculating on hypothetical questions because we still believe that our A, B, C and D scenarios should be positive ones and should be focused on the solutions. We demonstrated that we can do that and I hope that approach will finally prevail in London as well.

There is a sense of duty and an understanding of how peace can be fragile, how important this is for the island of Ireland, for the European Union and for all of our relationships with such an important country as the UK, which is our ally, our eternal neighbour and our big trading partner and with which we share the same democratic values. All of that puts this into perspective and pushes us to go this extra mile, or I would say extra miles. This is what my colleagues in the Commission and I are doing because when I put the proposals on customs issues, on sanitary and phytosanitary, SPS, checks and on medicines on the table, I assure you that there were always quite a few Commissioners involved. I received support from all of them and, more importantly, from the President of the Commission, who was very much pushing for a positive outcome of this negotiation. That is the approach and that is what drives us forward.

I thank you Chair for your point on fisheries. It is a very important and sensitive issue. We are fully aware that in this discussion even the small boat means a livelihood for a family. I will take this back to my colleague, Commissioner Virginijus Sinkevičius, who is permanently negotiating on these issues.

I will conclude because we are over time. Chair and honourable Senators, I very much welcome this opportunity to hear their insights and questions and to get their support. I extend a standing invitation for members to communicate on this issue in Ireland and Northern Ireland and with UK counterparts and with the media. We will stay in touch with members to make sure they are properly briefed and informed. We can share with them the latest development in this very demanding process of hopefully result-oriented and positive negotiations with the UK on the important issue of the protocol in Ireland and Northern Ireland. Thank you very much.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I extend our thanks to the Vice-President of the Commission, Mr. Maroš Šefčovič, for taking time this afternoon to engage with our committee. Commissioner, it was a very informative and interesting engagement. We very much appreciate your time this afternoon.

There is no other business. The next meeting of the committee will be with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney, in committee room 4 at 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 November.

The select committee adjourned at 3.09 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 November 2021.