Select Committee Coroners Bill, 1925 debate -
Thursday, 29 Apr 1926

SECTION 11.

Mr. BROWN

I move:— New section. After the preceding section to add a new section as follows:—

11.—(1) Without prejudice to the power of a coroner holding an inquest to direct a medical witness whom he may summon under Section 33 of the Coroners (Ireland) Act, 1846 to make a post-mortem examination of the body of the deceased, the coroner may, at any time after he has decided to hold an inquest, inform the Minister for Justice by writing under his hand that it is in his opinion desirable to have made—

(a) a post-mortem examination of the body of the deceased; or

(b) a special examination by way of analysis, test or otherwise of such parts or contents of the body or such other substances or things as ought in the opinion of the coroner to be submitted to analyses, tests or other special examination with a view to ascertaining how the deceased came by his death;

or to have both such examinations made, at the same time stating his reasons for such opinion: and the Minister for Justice may thereupon appoint a legally qualified medical practitioner to make such post-mortem examination or special examination or may appoint any other person whom he considers to possess special qualifications for making such a special examination as aforesaid to make the special examination.

(2) If any person who has made such a post-mortem or special examination as aforesaid is summoned by the coroner as a witness he may be asked to give evidence as to his opinion upon any matter arising out of the examination, and as to how in his opinion the deceased came by his death.

(3) The fees payable in respect of any such post-mortem or special examination shall be such as may be prescribed by rules made by the Minister for Justice under this Act.

Under the Act of 1846 the coroner had power to order a post-mortem examination by a medical person in the neighbourhood where the death occurred, and to have that person appear at the inquest as a witness, to give his opinion as to the cause of death. Power is given to the coroner, in this section, in any case in which he thinks it is proper, to apply to the Minister to have a post-mortem examination or a special examination of the body or of part of the body by a real expert who afterwards may be called and examined at the inquest.

CHAIRMAN

What is the meaning of sub-section (2)?

Mr. BROWN

That is a provision that is already in the Act of 1846 with reference to the local medical man, and it is in the English Bill which has recently passed the House of Lords.

CHAIRMAN

Very well; it does not do any harm.

Mr. BROWN

Now the only fee provided for in this new Section 11 is the fee in the case of the expert.

CHAIRMAN

What we agreed to, in that case, on the suggestion of Mr. Horgan, was that there should be a minimum fee of ten guineas for the special examination, and that, in the case of the person making it being subsequently required to give evidence at the inquest, he should be entitled to out-of-pocket expenses. Supposing there was a death in Kilkenny or Waterford, and the coroner thought that there was foul play and ordered that there should be a post-mortem examination or special analysis, and got the permission of the Minister for Justice to have an expert or a special pathologist in Dublin to make an analysis, the special pathologist would be entitled to a special fee, and Mr. Horgan suggested that that should be ten guineas. But he may be called upon to give evidence in Kilkenny or Waterford as a result of his analysis. In such case he should be entitled to out-of-pocket expenses for travelling and so on in addition to a special fee of ten guineas.

Mr. JACKSON

A man might be brought down from Dublin and kept a couple of days in the place where the inquest was held.

CHAIRMAN

It would not pay an eminent man, but, of course, men must do something for their country.

Mr. BROWN

Besides, he would be examined early and let away.

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

I think you would get over the difficulty if you said ten guineas for special fee and out-of-pocket expenses.

CHAIRMAN

Might we insert something like this: " The fees to be payable in respect of a post-mortem examination or special examination shall not be less than ten guineas, provided that in case the person making the post-mortem examination or special examination is required to attend and give evidence at the inquest, he shall receive such additional remuneration as the coroner, subject to the approval of the Minister for Justice, shall determine."

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

We should say out-of-pocket expenses—travelling expenses, and so on.

CHAIRMAN

That would not indemnify him.

Mr. BROWN

At any rate I object to the words " out-of-pocket-expenses " being put into an Act of Parliament.

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

Well, then ordinary subsistence allowance.

CHAIRMAN

Why not say " such further allowance as the coroner, with the approval of the Minister for Justice, shall determine "?

Mr. BROWN

I move:—

To delete all the words after " shall be " in Section 11, sub-section (3) and to substitute therefor the words "not less than ten guineas, and if the person making such post-mortem or special examination is summoned by the coroner as a witness to attend an inquest he shall be given such further allowance as the coroner with the approval of the Minister for Justice shall determine."

Amendment agreed to.

New Section 11, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 12.

Mr. BROWN

I move:—

New section. After the preceding section to add a new section as follows:—

12.—The fees payable to a legally qualified medical practitioner who has made any post-mortem examination by the direction or at the request of a coroner, or who has attended an inquest in obedience to a summons of a coroner under the Coroners (Ireland) Act, 1846, shall (save as in this Act otherwise expressly provided) be as follows, that is to say:—

(a) for attending to give evidence at any inquest whereat no post-mortem examination has been made by the practitioner, one guinea:

(b) for making a post-mortem examination of the body of the deceased and reporting the result thereof to the coroner without attending to give evidence at an inquest, one and a half guineas; and

(c) for making a post-mortem examination of the body of the deceased (including the making of a report, if any, of the result thereof to the coroner) and for attending to give evidence at an inquest on the body, two guineas:

Provided that no fee or remuneration shall be paid to a medical practitioner for the purpose of a post-mortem examination instituted without the previous direction or request of the coroner.

I am not sure that the provisions of this section are not objectionable, so far as the amount of the fees goes. The section is taken straight out of the English Bill.

CHAIRMAN

Would you not begin by saying " subject as aforesaid "?

Mr. BROWN

No. Look at the last line but one: " (save as in this Act otherwise expressly provided)." It seems to me that a guinea is a small fee for a legally qualified doctor.

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

It never did pay him.

CHAIRMAN

Is there any schedule of fees?

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

I do not think so.

CHAIRMAN

Then it is a matter of custom. The Coroners' Association has sent in, in reply to our invitation, the following draft schedule of fees:—

Coroner to have power to allow any witness expenses to cover travelling expenses and subsistence up to but not exceeding	£5	0	0
Medical witness for giving evidence	£2	2	0
Medical witness for giving evidence and making post-mortem	£3	3	0
Removal of body	0	10	0

This schedule apparently is intended to give the coroner power to award travelling expenses, because if it stands in that bald way, if you do not exclude medical witnesses, you would have power to give them £2 2s. and £3 3s., and in addition any sum up to £5 for travelling expenses. In county courts in the case of professional men they measured travelling expenses at £2 2s., £3 3s., and so on. They used to measure the fees in guineas. I think if we raise those fees to £2 2s. and £3 3s. that ought to cover everything.

Mr. JACKSON

If you limit a doctor brought from one part of the country to another to £2 2s., he might incur more expense than that.

Mr. BROWN

The ordinary post-mortem is to be held by someone in the neighbourhood under the Act of 1846.

CHAIRMAN

Yes, and if he goes out of his district to get a special man that man is entitled to more than £2 2s.

Mr. BROWN

In practice the doctor would be practising in the country. He will have his motor car and it will only cost him a little petrol.

CHAIRMAN

I think in paragraph (a) of Section 12 we could alter the figure £1 1s. to £2 2s.

Mr. FARREN

We ought to be fair all round. In considering wages we are very scrupulous as to shillings, but when it is guineas for professional men we do not give them much consideration. From my experience in Dublin when a medical witness gave his evidence he went away in a few minutes and he is now going to get £2 2s. I do not think it is fair to insist that he should be paid £2 2s., and I am the last man in the world to say a man should not be paid for work done.

Mr. BROWN

There may be a very unpleasant post-mortem.

CHAIRMAN

I should make it not exceeding £3 3s. in (b), and not exceeding £2 2s. in (a).

Sir EDWARD BIGGER

That will do.

CHAIRMAN

I think (c) should be not exceeding £4 4s.

Mr. FARREN

I am afraid that the maximum will become the minimum, because, as a general rule, a doctor is a coroner.

Mr. BROWN

I move that the new Section 12, as now amended, stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.