SELECT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD debate -
Wednesday, 24 Nov 2010

VFM Review - Forest Road Scheme: Discussion with Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

Chairman

From the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food I welcome Ms Bridgeena Nolan, principal officer, Mr. Fergus Moore, senior forestry inspector, and Mr. James Conway, agricultural inspector.

Before commencing I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Nolan to make her opening statement.

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

I thank the committee for affording the Department this opportunity to discuss the value for money review of the forest road scheme. I understand that a copy of the review has been circulated to Deputies.

This value for money review was undertaken under the Government's value for money and policy review initiative which was introduced to ensure improved value for money from public expenditure. The review is a detailed analysis of the public expenditure involved in the forest roads scheme.

The review is confined to the 2004-07 period and examines the efficiency and effectiveness of the scheme. The forest service was integrated into the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food from the then Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources in January 2004.

The forest road scheme has a number of objectives reflecting the multi-functional nature of forestry itself. It provides access to the forest for general management, maintenance and timber extraction. While there is little doubt that its primary purpose is to facilitate timber extraction, the forest road has other benefits such as biodiversity enhancement through increased open spaces and, in certain circumstances, the provision of access to the public for the many and varied recreational uses of forests. Forest roads also act as fire breaks and provide access for firefighters in the event of forest fires. As forest plantations mature, a good road structure is important for the proper management of the forest having regard to its varied uses.

The forest road scheme grant is cost-based and payment will cover 80% of eligible costs, subject to a maximum of €45 per linear metre. Total expenditure on the forest road scheme in the review period was approximately €18 million.

The review was completed inhouse and overseen by a steering committee representative of the forestry division, the Department's economic and planning division and the Department of Finance. Its terms of reference, as agreed with the Department of Finance, are set out at page 8 of the review document. The aim of the review was essentially to provide an answer to the question of whether the forest road scheme provides value for money. The terms of reference addressed the key evaluation criteria of rationale, efficiency, effectiveness, impact and continued relevance.

The methodology for completion of the review included interviews with relevant staff in the forestry division, postal surveys of grant recipients and industry stakeholders, as well as consultation with the forestry liaison group. This is a group representative of the Department and the forest industry, including growers, nurseries, contractors and consultants.

The review concluded the following: the objectives of the scheme are compatible with EU and national policy; the scheme's outcomes reflect the growing awareness of the importance of forest roads in the overall forestry programme; the objectives of the scheme are being effectively met by the scheme itself; the administration of the scheme was operated efficiently and effectively during the review period, although some improvements can be made with the introduction of the specified recommendations; and the scheme justifies the allocation of public funding going forward, with some adjustment to the administration and operation of the scheme, particularly given the current economic climate.

The review includes a number of recommendations that the steering committee considers would further improve the scheme. The key recommendations can be summarised as follows: that the Department explicitly identify the objectives of the scheme in all future scheme documentation; that the forest service ensure the farmers' charter minimum processing standard is met from existing resources; that the forest service introduce an appropriate risk-based selection inspection regime; that the forest service consider amending eligibility criteria, given the importance of thinnings; and that the forest service introduce the performance indicators outlined which should be continually reviewed and updated. We have already implemented a number of these changes and will be striving to ensure future schemes will have regard to these positive recommendations.

I thank the Chairman and members for allowing us time to discuss the review. My colleagues and I will be happy to answer any questions members may have.

Chairman

I thank Ms Nolan for her presentation.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

I also thank Ms Nolan and her officials for the presentation. Having gone through the value for money report, the vast majority of recommendations would lead towards improved administration of the scheme. That is the theme of all the recommendations made in the report. What will happen to the budget for the roads scheme? Was the review carried out with a view to cutting the budget?

Recently I met representatives from Coillte. They informed me they had a market for 50% more product than they would be producing this year. For that reason, they are approaching the owners of private plantations to see if they can purchase the forestry. They find that many private plantations cannot be accessed via a forestry road and that they have not been thinned, primarily because the forestry roads are not in place. I would hate it if the budget for the forestry road scheme was to be diminished. When I spoke to the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Connick, about the matter, he stated that in places 1 km of forestry road had been built where 500 m might have done. Will Ms Nolan outline the criteria to be used in deciding where a road is to be built? When is it proposed to set a minimum size for eligible plantations and the maximum level of grant?

We all agree that we have to achieve value for money, but I would hate to think the scheme would be trimmed at the cost of private plantations not being cultivated properly. The person with a large plantation would be subject to the maximum figure, while the person with a small plantation would be limited to the minimum figure. What is the minimum size of plantation that qualifies for a grant? Will we end up with plantations of 20 ha. dotted around the country that will not qualify for grants and in which the wood will not be harvested, at a time when Coillte has a market for an additional 50% of product?

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I welcome the officials. What is the relationship between Coillte and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in deciding on the payment of a grant of €45 per linear metre? Is it possible to determine how much Coillte has benefited?

Does the forest road scheme have regard to thinning? I note the definition of "thinning" included in the introductory statement. There is a reference to outcomes. I can only surmise that the outcomes have been negative in terms of thinnings in certain parts of the country. However, I may be wrong and may be hitting the wrong angle and, if so, I stand to be corrected.

What we have in the south, particularly in my constituency, is HGV traffic operating on Coillte land. While access to the forest at certain points is extremely good, certain roads are substandard as a result of the excessive volume of HGV traffic. HGVs should not go near these roads, but they are being used as rat-runs to gain access to the forestry. Does the Department have a role in this regard or is it a matter for the local authority? If it is a matter for the local authority, I hope this will be taken into account when allocations are being made under the scheme. In Ballyhoura in north Cork certain roads are in an atrocious state, but beyond a certain point, the standard of the surface is better than on the Cork to Dublin road. There is an inconsistency

Chairman

They are class 3 roads.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I would like the issue to be addressed.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

I welcome the delegation and will develop the points made by the last speaker. Forestry roads are important and give excellent value for money. Therefore, the building of such roads should be encouraged and continued. One of the complaints we receive is that rural country roads are being damaged by additional traffic when a forest is being planted or when product is being removed. Who is responsible for these roads? In some areas the county council has refused to repair roads as it cannot afford to do so.

Rural walkways have major potential for significant development. Walkways are being created, but there may be difficulties in accessing forestry. What is the Department's policy in this respect? Does it co-operate with rural communities and those who develop walkways? As I said, such walkways have great potential and attract many people at the weekend, etc.

Ms Nolan spoke about the need to ensure the benefit of thinning was maximised. Does a person who owns a forestry need a licence to engage in thinning? Is a licence essential if one wishes to use a chainsaw to cut down some trees? I recently came across the case of a person who had bought some farm land adjoining a forest and decided to remove some trees. He cut down six major oak trees without obtaining permission from anybody and the forestry authorities turned a blind eye. They stated there was nothing they could do about it. I understood one needed to have a licence before one could cut down a tree. I have given the details of the case to the authorities, but they have stated nothing can be done about it. Is it a question of the forestry industry turning a blind eye to one's activities, or is it a question of who one knows? What is the Department's policy on the felling of trees?

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I am sorry I missed the presentation, but I have looked through it. Forest roads are of substantial value from several perspectives. They are primarily required by those who need to access forests and remove timber. In addition, they have a much wider range of uses, for example, within the tourism industry, as has been outlined.

I share Deputy Coonan's assessment of the situation, especially the damage forestry vehicles can do to county roads. Could this aspect of the matter be taken into consideration when licences are being granted for planting or other forestry works? Coillte and private operators should have some responsibility for the condition of county roads when timber is being removed. I have seen significant damage caused in these circumstances. As the local authorities are not in a position to repair such damage, unfortunately, roads are being left in an appalling state after timber has been removed from forests.

There is a great deal of potential in this sector from a tourism perspective. However, I am not in favour of forest roads by used by mainstream vehicles. I am aware that certain people damage such roads by driving on them. Perhaps this activity can be examined and prohibited to a certain extent. Such roads are often used by those drivers who are known as boy racers and significant damage is caused by such activity. I agree that these roads should be used as walkways and cycle paths to the maximum extent possible. The amount of money quoted - €18 million - is significant, but we have to maintain the momentum with regard to our important forest roads. We should ensure they are kept in a proper manner and not abused by anybody.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I am sorry I missed the presentation. I was unable to leave immediately after the vote.

I welcome the report submitted. Is it true that one must obtain a felling licence before one can build a forest road? I understand the Minister has made an order to the effect that a felling licence must be obtained from the local authority before one can develop such a road.

Is the grant available to Coillte? I know it is available to private contractors, but is it also available to companies? A great number of forestry plantations are owned by companies. Is the grant available to them?

I missed the presentation on the €18 million fund. How many years will be covered by these moneys? I have heard about a proposal to spend up to €8 million per annum in the next ten years, or a maximum of €70 million. How will these moneys be allocated in the long term? How much will be available in the next ten years?

I am also concerned about the damage done to roads. I was a county councillor for many years before I was elected to the Dáil. My council colleagues and I used to encounter many problems caused by articulated trucks coming out of forests and damaging roads, particularly cul-de-sacs. On a few occasions I made representations that resulted in Coillte paying some money towards the upgrading of roads. Does Coillte's policy involve continuing to provide such moneys? Although it was hard to get the money, I received contributions on two occasions. The vehicles used by Coillte to haul timber have caused a great deal of damage to roads in County Kilkenny, which I represent. As a result, Coillte has donated some funds to a scheme of community involvement in road works. It has paid its share. Does this scheme provide for such payments to be made in respect of public rather than private roads?

Deputy Andrew Doyle

I thank Ms Nolan and her colleagues. One of the objectives in the construction of forest roads is to facilitate access, for example, by emergency vehicles or for recreational purposes. Is an alternative stream of funding for the construction of such roads available in that context, for example, under the national walkways programme? One of the problems with the forestry road scheme is that it has been switched on and off during the years as the economic situation has decreed. A plan is needed.

That one should engage in thinning at the right time makes sense. If one does not engage in thinning at the appropriate time, one's forestry will lose its value immediately which one will be unable to recover adequately. No matter what else happens, there is a need for certainty. If somebody obtains a felling licence on the basis that he or she will engage in thinning two years in advance of felling, he or she needs to be certain that his or her application for the forestry grant will be successful. While I accept that felling licences last for five years, I understand most people try to engage in their first and second thinnings under the same licence. If one has to be two years away from felling when making an application, the timeframe might not be conducive to enable one to apply for a road grant and a felling licence at the same time.

There is a danger that this will be seen as an easy opt-out. Timber has been expensive this year, for various reasons outside the control of those growing timber. Regardless of the current price, I suggest the overall investment of €14,000 or €15,000 a hectare, over the lifetime of a forest, represents good value for money. The investment of between €600 and €1,000 as recommended represents a key component of the Department's investment in the sector.

The value of forestry has been recognised for other reasons in recent times. Are there alternative streams of funding for the provision of recreational facilities, for example?

I refer specifically to the carbon afforestation scheme. It should be factored in when provision is being made to draw down funds for the provision of roads.

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

I will answer some of the questions asked and my colleagues will answer the remainder.

Deputy Sheahan asked about our approach to the budget allocated for the forest roads scheme. Our aim is to use the limited budget available as effectively as possible. We want to ensure the funds are used to open up as much forestry as possible to thinning and clear felling. The intention is not necessarily to cut back on the budget but to use the amount available to us as effectively as possible.

The Deputy also remarked about private plantations not having sufficient roads and that this was indicated to him by Coillte. One initiative undertaken in the Department involved helping to establish forest producer groups, some 16 of which have been established at this stage. The aim is to bring forest owners together to co-operate on issues such as marketing timber and such that they can achieve economies of scale in harvesting, road construction and transport. We expect this initiative will yield results and several of the groups have been quite successful to date. I will call on my colleague to deal with the eligible criteria and the minimum plantation size.

Mr. Fergus Moore

Deputy Sheahan referred to the eligibility criteria for a forest road, who gets a road and who does not. Let us step back a little. Generally, all conifer forests require thinning at approximately 17 or 18 years of age and a thinning takes place roughly every five years. Usually after 40 years of age it is time for a clear felling. Several activities take place. The minimum size plantation which we grant aid in Ireland is approximately one hectare for a conifer forest up to a given maximum, depending on environmental impact assessment, EIA, regulations. In general, the criteria we have introduced in recent years mean that most plantations will receive adequate funding to establish a bell mouth. This allows a forest truck to come off the public road into the forest. From a health and safety point of view we believe all forest operations should be kept within the forest.

Regarding eligibility criteria, in previous years there was a situation whereby we provided grant aid to forests which were up to five years away from harvesting. Many people were drawing down funds for forests which were five years away from a thinning operation. Then, especially with the increasingly limited availability of funds, someone could come to us and indicate that their forest would be ready for thinning next year and seek some funding but we would have to explain that all the funding is gone. We have built many roads throughout the country which will not be used for five years. We have introduced different criteria in the past 18 months. This involved providing enough road just in time and when the forest is ready for thinning and within two years of harvest. If a forest owner came to us with a forest that would be ready for thinning within two years, he or she would be eligible to apply for a road grant. If someone came to us with a forest that was eligible for harvesting in five years we would indicate that he or she should wait until it is closer to the time when the forest is ready for thinning.

Previously, we had a road density of 20 metres per hectare but we have increased this to 25 metres per hectare to get around the situation involving some forest blocks which were some way off the public road and for which a good deal of external road had to be built across farmers fields to access. There are also situations whereby large forests adjoin public roads and only need a small amount of road to access the block. Such people have not been receiving the maximum 25 meters per hectare. In essence, we have tried to give just enough road to the people who require it. If forest owners were some distance back from the public road, they received a little extra road to take the forest trucks closer to their forests. In the case of harvesting and extraction machinery we have tried, wherever possible, to ensure that those machines would drive through the wood to the small stretch of forest road in place. This is to ensure that as many forest owners as possible will access the money. Other issues were raised relating to damage to Coillte roads.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

Recommendation No. 15 suggests that the forest service examines and fully costs alternative approaches to the current scheme. This raised a question mark for me. Regarding the membership of the steering committee, I am surprised no foresters or producer groups were on the steering committee. It was all in house people.

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

There was consultation during the process of the value for money, VFM, review. Extensive consultation took place with the stakeholders through the forestry liaison group which, as I explained, was representative of the different aspects of forestry, including those from the nurseries, growers, planters and harvesters. Also, we sent out postal surveys to grant recipients and to the industry stakeholders as well.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

What alternative approaches to the scheme are envisaged?

Mr. Fergus Moore

There are several alternative approaches which we have encountered from discussions with other countries. We could do one of several things with a fixed about of money. We could reduce the grant or the amount of eligibility for costs. At present we give 80% of costs but we could reduce it to 50% of costs. We could reduce the grant from €45 to €25 per linear metre. There could be various impacts on the uptake of the scheme. If no one applies for a road grant because it does not cover a significant proportion of the costs then there would be market failure and no thinning would take place.

Another possibility relates to tendering. This has been explored already and we will explore it further in the new year. For example, one could put together a roads programme for a certain county. Then, one issues a tender and depending on the contractors, one puts in a price and picks the best price to build a maximum number of roads. That could reduce the unit cost per metre.

Another option mentioned was the provision of soft loans by the Government. Farmers may find it difficult to access credit or funding from now on. There is an option in this regard. The Government could introduce low interest loans to allow farmers to avail of finance to put in a road. It would probably break even in the first thinning but once the second, third and fourth thinnings progress the amount of revenue generated from the sale of timber might help to fund part of the road construction. Other options include co-operative road ventures. Given the cluster groups and various co-operatives and producer groups throughout the country, there is the possibility of five or six forest owners getting together in a certain area and agreeing a plan. If they all shared a common access route, it could be a more effective way of putting in a road, rather than having five individual roads going through a given area. In such a case it may be possible to get one road to enter a forest block which could service that block spread out among six owners. Such a co-operative approach-----

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

That is not provided for under planning permission.

Mr. Fergus Moore

Regarding our scheme and the matter of the planning permission, the local authorities would rather one shared access was used rather than several access points on a public road. However, it depends on the distribution of the forest. In some areas there are many forest blocks close together-----

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

It is a question of distribution and size.

Mr. Fergus Moore

Yes. In other situations, one could have one 25 hectare block on its own which would require its own road. However, three or four farmers could own a 100 or 200 hectare forest block in one area and it would make more sense for them to come together and avail of a co-operative effort or approach. These issues can be explored and we encourage it in the scheme documentation at present. If multiple owners wish to come together, we will consider a co-operative road venture which is more desirable.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

Mr. Moore will correct me if my understanding is wrong. These are all measures with the goal of cutting the forestry road budget.

Mr. Fergus Moore

No. I am not suggesting we cut the forest road budget. It is more a case of trying to make the forest road budget go to as many owners as possible and into as many forests as possible. There is no point in having six small forest roads serving six individual small units of forest. The key point about the forest road is how much road can be built that will open up the maximum area for thinning. One forest road built properly may open up 100 hectares whereas one could have six forest roads in small areas opening up ten hectares each. In terms of value for money it makes more sense to spend the same amount of money and focus on a larger forest block to maximise the amount of timber being generated and to put that timber into the panel board and sawmills in the country.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

Will the forestry road budget be maintained?

Mr. Fergus Moore

That is a political decision. I cannot answer that.

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

Some people asked about whether a felling licence was required. Before felling takes place as part of thinning, a licence is required. Grants are available for all companies. One of the recommendations in the VFM review was that a cap should be placed on the amount one individual company can receive. However, any company is entitled to receive the grant.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Does that apply to themselves?

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

Yes. They can seek payment as well. The €18 million covers the review period of 2004 to 2007.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Is the felling licence compulsory? Must one have it? Is it the case that one cannot get a grant unless one has a felling licence to take out trees?

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

Yes. One receives a grant for the road. One may need to fell some trees to construct a road. Therefore, one would need a felling licence to do that.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

One must produce that first before one can apply for the road grant.

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

At the moment we are trying to target people who are ready to thin and who have a felling licence in place. If they have a felling licence we can give them the road grant as well.

Deputy Doyle raised the issue of alternative sources of funding or alternative streams of revenue to pay for the roads and the stream of carbon funding. The international rules for the treatment of forestry are still under consideration, so we will not be in a position to determine what may be available.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

Did the Department consider it as an option in the event of forestry being allowed as part of the calculation for the mitigation of greenhouse gases? Did the Department consider that there might be a stream of funding there?

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

In considering streams of funding, we suggested that we would explore other options further. Obviously, that option is also being considered in the review of State forestry policy. It depends on the global negotiations and what arises from them.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

I appreciate the point Mr. Moore made about one entrance serving a multitude. However, in the event of getting to a couple of hundred hectares, a road will probably have to be put in for firebreaks and an extensive access. There are alternative reasons for doing so, other than purely for extraction. With due respect to walkways, firebreaks constitute probably the next most important one. In joining up two or three owners, does Mr. Moore consider where an appropriate road would be funded for the provision of a firebreak?

Mr. Fergus Moore

At the moment, if one meets the eligibility criteria one is eligible for funding. We do not prioritise various applications, so if three applications meet the criteria and we have a small amount of money, then, in date order, they will get funding in that process.

On firebreaks, the most vulnerable time for a forest is when it is first being planted. There is a great deal of vegetation around, which is highly flammable. As the forest matures and approaches first and second thinning, the forest canopy closes so the vegetation dies in the ground. Therefore the risk of fire can tend to reduce. I take the Deputy's point. If one's wooded area adjoins a large mountainside with lots of heather on it that is burnt, one can get a fire approaching the forest. A forest road network is essential to get fire trucks and tenders in.

The problem is that we have a small amount of money, yet we have a large amount of timber that needs to be harvested and extracted to reach the sawmills. The priority is to get the timber to the saw mills by providing forest roads in time for thinning. The provision of firebreaks is an added advantage if it does happen. In the development of a forest we would encourage people to put firebreaks around the edge of a plantation to prevent forest fires. They should be maintained as part of their ongoing forest maintenance and management.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

Forgive me because my earlier question may have been long-winded and could have been misunderstood. Some 80% of the eligible costs are subject to €45 per linear metre, and with a budget of €18 million, by how much did Coillte benefit from that?

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

We do not have the exact figures at the moment. This year, we have paid out about €3.2 million on forest roads and about 50% went to Coillte. However, as I explained earlier, there is a cap on how much an individual company can receive.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

How much will Coillte earn potentially? Is Ms Nolan saying that is far as it can go?

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

It depends on the payment for the rest of the year, but to date it is €3.2 million, so about €1.5 million went to Coillte.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I could table a parliamentary question, but could I have a breakdown of by how much Coillte has benefited from this scheme, including the geographical locations involved? I would also like to know the geographical locations where private entities have benefited from these schemes.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Coillte is a nationwide organisation, but is it limited to so much in each county? Is the money it receives, which is amalgamated and capped for the year, for the whole country?

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

Yes, the cap is for the whole country.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Some €45 per linear metre applies to private contractors. If one had a 45 hectare forestry plantation - and some farmers now have all their land in afforestation - can one get the full 80% if one wants to put access roads through the forest?

Mr. Fergus Moore

If one has a 45 hectare plantation, the maximum road density is 25 metres per hectare. That is the maximum length of road.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

So it is so much per hectare?

Mr. Fergus Moore

Yes, so one would get a fairly extensive road through that, which would serve the vast majority of that block. There is a €2 million cap which general farmers and owners would never approach or exceed.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

It is a good idea to have it per hectare.

Chairman

If Mr. Moore does not have the answers to Deputy Sherlock's questions, perhaps he can supply them to the clerk to the committee.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I am trying to get a sense of the scheme. Forgive me if we are not totally au fait with the workings of the scheme; maybe we should be. I do not mean to be facetious, but forestry road schemes are not on top of the list. Now that the officials are here, however, I would like to get the pounds, shillings and pence of where the money is going.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

Coillte is no longer in the business of planting new forests; it is only replanting. Its basic asset is the land bank. I live in the heart of the Wicklow uplands where I am surrounded by woods and timber. The network of forestry roads has been there for at least 30 years. I imagine that 80% of the network of Coillte's land, which is a State asset, is already in situ. It goes back to the point I made concerning the other reasons one would grant aid. Is a higher percentage of it going for other access? That is fair enough if that is the case. In our case, they would be access routes to the National Park and Wildlife Service's parkland, or for firebreaks. As far as I am aware, most of the land which borders open mountain already has firebreaks in place on the perimeter to prevent heather catching fire. If Coillte is only in the business of replanting, the network of roads should be in place. That is where Deputy Sherlock's point is leading.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

Yes.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

Ms Nolan said €3.8 million is being spent on roads this year. Is that correct?

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

The sum is €3.2 million.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

The total is €18 million per year, so what about the other €14.8 million? Is that committed?

Ms Bridgeena Nolan

No. The sum of €18 million we were talking about is actually for the review period 2004-07. There is a different allocation each year. We have an allocation for sports schemes, which include schemes other than forest roads, including reconstitution, tending, thinning, native woodland conservation and the neighbour-wood scheme. This year, there is an allocation of approximately €9 million, which is divided among a number of schemes. It is not a specific allocation for forest roads.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Is forest funding only made available from year to year, rather than for a long-term five or ten-year period?

Deputy Seán Sherlock

That is a good question.

Chairman

Does Ms Nolan or Mr. Moore want to reply to the questions?

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I asked about grant aid for public roads where damage is being done.

Mr. Fergus Moore

I will deal with that point shortly, but I wish to revert to the matter of roads for Coillte's forests. Coillte has approximately 8,000 km of forest roads in its estates, which are generally fairly well roaded. Coillte is still building approximately 150 km of new roads each year, and is upgrading 150 km also. Coillte has a large national estate extending to 400,000 hectares and certain aspects are well roaded. For example, in County Wicklow certain forests are very well roaded. If an application came in tomorrow, the forest inspector would examine that area. If he realises there is already a 20 to 25 metres-per-hectare density of existing roads in that forest block, no grant aid would be paid at all because they have already exceeded the density. However, because Coillte has a large estate, certain blocks of woodland have no roads in them at all. Coillte would be eligible to apply for those particular woods. I reiterate that money goes to the areas that require roads. If an existing forest road network, even in the private sector, exceeds 25 metres per hectare no funding is given.

Damage to forest roads was mentioned, which is of concern to us. A gross vehicle weight of 44 tonnes is the legal limit for more than 95% of the timber trucks that leave the forest estate entering the saw milling sector. Coillte evolved with the Clara project, an initiative involved with local authorities, whereby they identify some shared access routes, that is, preferred routes. For example, there may be a village in some part of the country which has a forest road running through it and there may be another forest road on the other side of the hill but Coillte has no problem with moving the timber at that side of the hill to bypass it.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

The contractor does not always suit at 6 a.m.

Mr. Fergus Moore

In fairness to Coillte, especially in regard to the maintenance and signing of a timber contract with contractors it will specify, in certain locations, that the preferred route must be from A and B and that one must not go past a certain area.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

They do not always stick to it.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I apologise for my late arrival. I have been saying for a number of years that the county councils in my area could learn much from Coillte in respect of road construction. It did a superb job on drainage where water is the major problem on country roads. In the past Coillte took great pride in its forests and maintained them well but in the past 20 years forest entrances, gates and barriers have been neglected because it has nobody to attend to them. I recall a time when they were exemplary but that is not the case any more and it is a pity.

Deputy Aylward referred to the fact that contractors may not always follow the routes. That is a problem. There is a problem in County Waterford where water courses for spring water were damaged. They traversed over ground and streams resulting in serious pollution of a group water scheme for five or six houses which was destroyed. They say they did not interfere with the source, that is, the well, but they interfered with the feeder streams and polluted it. Nobody is getting any satisfaction from them. They just say they did not touch the source, which they did not, but they caused long-term damage to the periphery, by driving across the streams. It was a water source that provided water to a number of houses. They will have to be more careful. While they say they did not touch the source, the well, they damaged the feeders.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I agree with Deputy McGrath that the roads Coillte has built for its own use are excellent and are holding up well where they are not being abused. Mr. Moore referred to the tonnage being limited to 44 tonnes? Is that correct?

Mr. Fergus Moore

Yes. The gross legal weight limit.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I am referring to roads that were never made to take that type of weight. I asked whose responsibility it is where damage is caused by Coillte's trucks or private trucks. Will Mr. Moore outline who is responsible because that is a major concern? I have seen such roads all over the place in my constituency and they are just left there. The county council does not go near them because it does not have the funding. Those who use them and cause the damage have a responsibility.

Chairman

I will take all the questions first.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

We are talking about tertiary roads. These roads are characterised as culs-de-sac.

Chairman

Green roads.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Yes. They lead into forests. In Kilkenny we have a community involved roadwork, CIR, scheme into which locals can pay. That is how I got money from Coillte on two occasions. If a grade 5 road was badly damaged by trucks, a road on which one or two people or, perhaps, nobody, lived, could this grant be drawn down? Usually the county council paid 70% and the local contribution was 30% but could this grant be used as the 30% contribution? In line with what Deputy O'Sullivan said, forestry was put in place in my area in the 1960s and 1970s and the network of roads put in place at that time by Coillte was first class and still is to this day. I am talking about roads going through hundreds of acres of forests and they are still in place to this day.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Deputy Christy O'Sullivan mentioned that the gross legal weight limit is 44 tonnes. Ten or 15 years ago the Tipperary county engineer told me that the passage of one fully laden truck, which for a milk truck was 35 tonnes, was comparable to the passage of 30,000 cars. One has to realise that while these tertiary roads are well drained, they were made for horses and carts. I support Deputy Aylward.

Chairman

Just before we finish the questions, would it be possible to insist when grant aiding Coillte for the construction of roads or loading bays, that it fence them off? On the road near where I live there are two massive loading bays. On numerous occasions I have asked Coillte to fence them off or to erect a barrier. People can drive in there at night or during the day and people walking on the road are afraid when they see a strange car. They are being used as a drug pick-up area and for other activities-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Dumping as well.

Chairman

-----and dumping. It could be worse than that. It should be appropriate to erect a barrier to prevent those people from accessing the loading bays.

Mr. Fergus Moore

I will take those two questions. On the question of whether forest road grants can be used for roads which are not in the forest, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food provides money for the building of roads in forests to facilitate timber extraction to the council road. We do not have control from the council road onwards which obviously is a local authority function. I appreciate the issue in regard to damage. The national road network is used by many timber hauliers, not just forestry, the creamery and the IFA for the delivery of goods nationwide. In regard to the actual activity that takes place in a forest - for a thinning operation only a limited number of trucks is involved. For example, in a first thinning of a 10 hectare forest block, 30 trucks might leave that forest every five years. In between those five years many other trucks, from various industries, use it.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Cars and-----

Mr. Fergus Moore

The same applies with all kinds of trucks whether for agriculture or milk-towing. I would not necessarily agree with tarring forestry with the one brush but certainly I agree that there is a need for more co-operation between local authorities and the Department in identifying preferred routes. With preferred routes at least one can focus local authority money towards upgrading and maintaining routes where all the forest activity will be concentrated. There are other routes that are used by creamery trucks and trucks for delivering steel.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I think Mr. Moore misinterpreted my question. I asked whether Coillte has a responsibility where it is identified that its trucks caused the damage.

Mr. Fergus Moore

Yes. Under the local authority Acts and the road traffic Acts, if a haulier damages a road the haulier is liable. Certainly the local authority can take up that issue with the haulier if the vehicle has been overloaded and it has caused damage to the public road network. There is an issue there.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

If the vehicle was overloaded-----

Mr. Fergus Moore

That is a problem.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

Can the overloading cause the damage? Usually a truck leaves a very good forest road and comes on to a class 3 county road which is probably about 5 ft. wide and built on bog with no foundation. When 35 tonnes----

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Or 44 tonnes-----

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I do not think the roads would hold up 44 tonnes in weight.

Mr. Fergus Moore

The local authorities are concerned about forestry as well as other sectors. Certainly we need to discuss the issue with them.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

The only heavy traffic on those class 3 roads that is immediate to the forestry is harvesting machinery. The next heaviest is probably a tractor and trailer.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

We should ask Coillte. I said that on three or four occasions that Coillte has paid its share into those roads and farmers use those roads also. They came together and paid out 30%. In fairness to Coillte, in one case it paid 8%, in another case it paid 10%. It does not do it all the time.

Mr. Fergus Moore

There is scope to explore that issue further on an individual basis. It was not part of the scheme but certainly it can be looked at. In regard to fencing off loading bays, part of the scheme was to encourage recreational access, such as walking, on those forest roads if required.

Chairman

That does not mean stopping people from walking, one can always leave a couple of paths.

Mr. Fergus Moore

A stile and a gate. I appreciate the point the Deputy made. I have seen cases of fly-tipping in County Wicklow where somebody backs up a truck and dumps material. We can certainly look at ways of restricting access to those particular loading bays when not in use to try to prevent fly-tipping and dumping.

Chairman

I saw the engines of three cars and a tractor. That did not last too long because this sort of waste is valuable. The dumping of tyres is a serious problem.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There is a large machinery breakers lot near Kells. One might not have to look too far. One could show leadership and show the county council how to make roads.

I know I am straying a little, but I wish to raise the issue of fencing and how this affects sheep farmers. In the past the fencing was to be admired, but now there are no fences. Stray sheep are being brought to animal pounds and the farmers are being prosecuted. This is causing significant trouble. If I have a property, I must mind it.

Mr. Fergus Moore

Is the Deputy referring to Coillte estates?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Yes.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

These officials are from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The fencing is non-existent.

Mr. Fergus Moore

With a large forest block, the amount of fencing would be massive and this is a national issue. There is an onus on the farmer to fence sheep in as opposed to the forest owner trying to fence the sheep out.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It works both ways.

Chairman

On behalf of the select committee, I thank Ms Nolan, Mr. Moore and Mr. Conway for bringing the committee up to date on the value for money review.

The select committee adjourned at 1.15 p.m. sine die.