We reconvene to deal with a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources.
Estimates for Public Services 1998.
Vote 30: Marine and Natural Resources (Supplementary).
I move:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment in the year ending 31 December 1998 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants and sundry grants-in-aid.
This is a token Estimate of £1,000. We are engaged in some new ventures but they are being done largely on foot of savings within the Department. Deputies should have a copy of the Supplementary Estimate and a briefing note from the Department on what is proposed. The Estimate proposes increases in spending by the Marine Institute, the Salmon Research Agency and Bord Iascaigh Mhara. It funds important developments and reflects continuing progress in specific areas of the marine sector.
Subhead F.2 relates to the Marine Institute MetOcean study. It is very interesting and I am delighted we have the opportunity to conduct it. Deputy Finucane, living on the west coast, will appreciate this study. The Supplementary Estimate proposes a grant of £500,000 to the Marine Institute to purchase equipment for a MetOcean study. The institute, with my Department, is working with the oil industry and the Irish oceanography companies to put together a major co-funded MetOcean study of the Irish Atlantic margin. The objective is to act as a catalyst for the private sector to provide funding for a major study of MetOcean conditions in the Irish offshore sector to a strategic national capacity building initiative. The MetOcean study will measure the depth, wave patterns, currents, temperature and salinity in the Atlantic Ocean.
The Marine Institute has developed a partnership approach for the project entitled "Shared Assessment of MetOcean Conditions in the Rockall Trough" and the short title is "Shamrock". The project will seek to develop an understanding of the water movements in the Rockall Trough focusing on currents. A total of ten moorings, each one consisting of a large buoy supporting a cable holding a range of equipment and anchored to the seabed, will be used to measure the conditions of a water column in the Rockall Trough area to a depth of 2,000 metres. Our scientists will be working 2,000 metres under the sea - you will get an idea of what will be done from the chart at the back of the document. At 400 metres there are particular studies and as you go down there are acoustic release devices, a temperature and salinity metre, a current metre and satellite communications which go as far as the seabed.
The Marine Institute plans to invest £500,000 in instrumentation to outfit three of the proposed moorings. The equipment includes current metres, temperature and salinity sensors, acoustic releases, satellite beacons and associated hard and software. The instrumentation will subsequently be leased to the MetOcean project at commercial rates and will be a major strategic element of our national marine research and development pool. It is vital to further Irish involvement in a major oceanographic study in the Atlantic margin. It will support Irish involvement in co-operative programmes with the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration - NOAA. There will be a major project coming up next year in which the US side is investing $5 million. There is tremendous interest in the Atlantic.
The infrastructure will also be a significant plus for Irish researchers and enterprises in their bid under the EU Fifth Framework Programme on Offshore Physical Oceanography Projects. The Celtic Voyage, our national research vessel, will also be chartered for the deployment, maintenance and recovery of the moorings. The income to the Marine Institute from the equipment lease and the vessel charter is estimated to be in the region of £250,000 in the first two years. To enable this important commercial initiative to get under way it is proposed to allocate an additional £500,000 to the institute.
The Salmon Research Agency will receive an additional £133,000 in the Supplementary Estimate. The agency makes a critical contribution to national salmon and sea trout rehabilitation and research programmes. The work programmes of the agency have expanded in recent years, reflecting the key ecological and economic importance of our wild salmon resources. Concerns about the state of the Atlantic salmon stocks underline the need for effective stock assessment and research programmes to inform management and policy decisions. The SRA has been to the forefront of this work at home and at international level. It has growing research demands and a decline in its own resources due to the market and fish health difficulties. This will help it to maintain its fisheries research.
Applied research is the key to development in any area and development of our marine resources depends on comprehensive and focused innovative research. I want to ensure that the necessary research and development capability is in place to underpin the development of that resource. The Marine Institute, which I established in 1992, has developed a wide ranging agenda for effective and efficient delivery of national marine research. As part of a process the Salmon Research Agency will shortly be merged with the Marine Institute. This will place the agency in a dedicated marine research management structure and will put the work programmes of the agency firmly in the national marine research and development context. The merger will ensure a stable and challenging future for the agency and its staff. It will also ensure that its funding needs are met and its revenue generating opportunities maximised in a planned multi-annual strategy within the Marine Institute budget. To enable the agency to meet its obligations in 1998, it is proposed to allocate and additional £130,000.
Subhead H1 concerns BIM. It is responsible for the development of the Irish sea fishing and aquaculture industry and provides a wide range of financial, technical, educational, resource development and marketing services to the sector. A figure of £5.61 million has been provided under the subhead for BIM towards current expenditure. Additional funding is required to meet expenditure needs which have arisen during the year and which cannot be met from the existing provisions. The additional funding amounts in total for 1998 to £1.27 million.
Of this, £550,000 is required to fund the implementation of the dry hold herring fleet training programme. Deputies will remember that we established this programme when special difficulties arose with the herring fleet. There is also the herring processing sector training programme earlier recommended by the Task Force on the Management and Marketing of Herring. Incentive to provide quality training programmes for the dry hold herring fleet and the herring processing sectors was one of the key recommendations of the task force.
The objective of the quality training programme for the dry hold herring fleet, which is being run by my Department and BIM, is to raise standards and operational practices significantly in the dry hold herring fleet to deliver quality and competitiveness in the market. The fleet programme will provide intensive quality training for the skippers and crews of eligible vessels and will catalyse the introduction of on board quality systems and practices. The estimated cost of this programme, based on full take up by the industry, is £450,000.
The training programme for the herring processing sector will be run jointly by my Department and BIM and the National Food Centre. It will provide intensive quality training for key plant personnel designed to support an in-plant quality programme with a view to maximising product quality and value. The estimated cost of this programme, based on a full take up, is £100,000. A further £96,000 is required to fund the herring fishery pilot investigations as recommended by the Task Force on the Management of Herring. The task force agreed that exploratory fishing would enhance the development of potential new herring fisheries to support new product opportunities.
At my request, BIM undertook to carry out these trials in association with the Marine Institute and a number of trials were successfully completed this season and the data obtained are being assessed with a view to commercial application of the results. The total cost of these trials is £96,000. That relates mainly to the charter of vessels over the trial periods.
To provide the Exchequer contribution, £269,000 is required in 1998 towards exploratory tuna fishing trials being conducted under an EU supported programme. Ireland's drift net tuna fleet is a valuable fishery for the south-west. As committee members are aware, the Fisheries Council decided in June to ban drift net fishing for tuna with effect from 1 January 2002. In order to protect the interest of Irish tuna fishermen I insisted on a range of measures to assist the industry to develop new, alternative fishing methods which will enable Irish tuna fishermen to remain in the fishery when the drift net ban comes into force in three years time. I am pleased to say the council agreed to my request. I immediately secured financial support from the European Commission for a trial programme in 1998-9 to carry out this work. The total cost of the two year programme will be £1.87 million. EU aid is being provided to the extent of 50 per cent and 20 per cent is toward current and capital costs, respectively. The total expenditure in 1998 will amount to £634,000. The trials to date are proving very promising and I expect the 1999 programme to deliver positive outcomes. Those were two major things announced during the year forwhich we are providing in this Supplementary Estimate.
Finally, £356,000 is required to fund BIM pay agreements and unbudgeted superannuation requirements. Unanticipated superannuation costs amounted to £230,000 while the 1998 costs of productivity pay awards, granted under clause 2 of the Programme for Competitiveness and Work will amount to £126,000.
We are talking about an Estimate of less than £2 million but I would like to ask a few questions.
What was the specific reason for choosing the Rockall Trough? What area will the survey cover? Regarding the Salmon Research Agency, I agree with it being absorbed by the Marine Institute. Are we heading in the direction of trying to buy out many of the people in the drift and draft net fisheries? Toward that objective, £200,00 has been allocated. There has been a considerable erosion of income because of the reduction in time involved in drift and draft net fishing and the situation this year was exacerbated by the weather.
I agree with what is being done about the quality of dry hold herring boats. Quality is extremely important. Can the Minister quantify to what part of the fleet the funding will apply? Will the entire herring fleet be covered or could we end up with only some of those involved availing of this quality training programme? That would defeat the long-term objective of improving the quality of herring as anticipated by this programme.
I could say a lot about offshore drilling for oil but that is for another day. There is much concern about this issue. Would the Minister comment on how the tuna fishing trials are progressing? The original concerns of tuna fishermen concerned the amount of fish which could be caught by the Spanish using drift net and long line fishing methods. There will be a difference in the catch between traditional methods and the new long lining method which will supposedly be adopted. Are the fishermen involved in these exploratory trials catching a sufficient supply or is it lower than the catch when using drift nets?
As regards the administration and current development in Bord Iascaigh Mhara we are talking about in excess of £1.2 million. Much of this it seems will be used to meet pay and superannuation costs. To what degree will any part of the £1.2 million go to improve the overall marketing situation and enhance the profile of Bord Iascaigh Mhara in Europe?
Questions were asked about the project and why Rockall Trough was chosen. There are an enormous number of jobs in such areas which have nothing directly to do with oil and gas. These jobs are being created. For example, we are equipping the institute for this research. In this area of the Atlantic there were 60 scientists involved in seven research cruises in 1996. If we combine 1997 and to date in 1998, there are almost 1,000 scientists working in that area. This gives an indication of the explosion of interest in the Atlantic, primarily by other countries. Some Irish people are being taken on and we are getting people on vessels. We are entitled to do this and I undertook to do so in the Estimates last year.
The Rockall Trough experiences some of the harshest MetOcean conditions in the world, particularly with regard to wind, waves and currents. It is a special area which will be interesting from the point of view of future exploration for gas, oil, etc. Although the severity of the waves and the wind are of concern for offshore operations, its exposure to various oceanic processes, in conjunction with the complex system which exists, means that the current regime is potentially of great concern.
People are concerned about what is happening in the Atlantic. For example, there are cyclonic eddies in the north Rockall Trough. There are long period waves in the shelf region which are propagating polewards in the Rockall and Malin shelf regions. This is an example of what is happening and why the US is interested in carrying out studies for which it is putting up $5 million. We hope to have these studies under way early in the new year.
The merging of the Salmon Research Agency with the Marine Institute will be good for everyone as the Salmon Research Agency will have the resources of the Marine Institute at its disposal. This is taking place at the moment.
The £200,000 buy out for drift and draft net fishing is for the trials. This is not in the Estimate but in the budget so it will be included in a Supplementary Estimate. It will be used to commence trials in conjunction with the various interests, including riparian owners, and allow us to start to develop the buy out system. We will have to see what can be done but it is a major step to have an amount of money in the Estimates which will enable us to begin to look seriously at this issue.
Is it more a feasibility study to look at the overall situation than earmarking specific areas?
We have some pilot schemes in mind.
Where will those schemes be?
There are specific rivers. People came to see me concerning the Blackwater. The kind of project they had in mind might not be the best one but we will have to discuss that. We were not in a position to do anything about it.
I read that presentation and the idea was excellent.
Yes. However, if one has to buy out, it must be a real buy out. The idea is to develop the river, the stocks and improve conservation so that the situation will be better in five or six years. We do not want to have to come back to netting at that stage. Other than that I accept the point the Deputy is making.
Conservation has been extremely important over the past few years and it is working effectively. However, the drift and draft net people are being squeezed. Deputy Browne from Wexford has raised the issue of a buy out many times during the Estimates. Some of the people involved in salmon are saying this because of the erosion of their incomes. I know about the Blackwater proposal but is the Minister getting down to pinpointing locations where he may be interested in approaching people?
Yes, we will start pilot studies in particular catchments.
The catchments selected are the Blackwater——
We have not selected them yet. This is just an idea I have. I suggested that we consider a number of areas and then if we could start to look at that issue. We will then have to come back and see where we can go with the kind of money that is involved. The Deputy is right when he says this is an important start.
The herring measures apply to the Celtic Sea and the dry hold boats. There are about 60 boats in that fleet. It is an option which can be taken up by skippers of those boats. There is a great deal of interest in this idea and the skippers have already been taking up the option. There has already been some expenditure in this area. The option is being taken up because the task force involved the people themselves. This is what they wanted and we went ahead with it. The Deputy is right to state that this is an option open to them. The different aspects and expenditure for various areas are being taken up.
Does the Minister anticipate all 60 skippers will take it up?
I do not know. I know a good deal about what is happening around the country but not to that extent. I hope the 60 skippers will take it up. The indications are that most of the people involved are taking it up.
My point is about the quality objective. Some people will try to improve the quality by availing of this and others will not. Is the Minister eroding the original purpose, which was to improve the overall quality?
The Deputy knows quality benefits and the result is better prices. It is obviously beneficial from their point of view. The indications are that most of the people involved will participate.
Apart from the dry hold herring fleet training programme, does the Minister anticipate an increase in the price paid for herring in the coming season?
That is the $60,000 question. It depends on so many external factors. We expect an improvement in quality following the work that has been done, which is beginning to pay off already. One is dependent on different outcomes. BIM is giving special priority to market research in that area. It is developing a strategy not just for this year but for a number of years. We are trying to ensure that the market is expanding generally. Demand for seafood is growing but there are major problems in some of the overseas markets. BIM is upgrading its marketing approach, which I discussed with them. There is a difficulty with the price of herrings in the EU and worldwide.
I know. Does the Minister anticipate a recovery in the roe market exports to the Japanese in the coming year or are they getting it cheaper elsewhere? The price of herring is chiefly governed by the demand for roe.
The problem is with the Japanese economy rather that from other competitors. When prices were reasonable we were able to deal with the competition from, for example, Canada. The problem is with the market itself and it depends how well the economy does. If the Japanese had a Celtic tiger they would have no great difficulty with prices.
Has the Minister made any progress in expanding and developing a trade for fillet herring where the roe is taken out? There are smoked herrings, canned herrings and the continentals have herrings in wine, herrings in brine and herrings in mustard. The Norwegians and the Danes are ace hands at this.
They were always very much into it; in Norway and Denmark one could eat herrings for breakfast, dinner and tea. We were never into that here, although it might have been better if we had. There is a great deal of room for differentiation of the product. There is a great deal of work being done with fillets, which is going well, especially with improved quality.
There are vast possibilities for the promotion of herring in different ways. No country can do this better than us. However, for some unknown reason we are not capitalising on this.
BIM has conducted some studies in this area and their report will be available soon. They have been doing research to back up developments. This resulted from the task force report.
Research has been taking place for the past couple of years and it does not seem to be coming up with any firm proposals.
It has come up with firm proposals about a market initiative in the pelagic area. The problems are huge and everyone is very much aware of that. That is one of the principal problem areas. Let us look at the breakdown: £372,000 goes on marketing and almost £1 million on the operational programme for different market programmes. The industry also has a herring marketing group. That is in the Book of Estimates.
We are conscious of the need for marketing, especially when prices are tight. The person who gives better value and has the right product will be more successful. There is a great deal of hope for the future. The task force has been helpful in contributing to the thinking on this area. People have faced up to the realities of the changes in the marketplace. In doing that, they have begun to look at the production of more fillets and segments to meet the different niches in the market. With better quality, this will pay off.
Is there a task force on the marketing of herring specifically?
An industry herring marketing group which was set up following the recommendations of the task force.
Are there any herring boat skippers or representatives on it?
Yes, it is an industry group; it is similar to the overall task force involved in the sectors concerned. We have found that in all the fishery areas, it is best to get those involved to help in management. Then they can see what is being done and why. We have great difficulty with quotas. These people can see exactly what is happening to quotas and why a Minister is put in the position of finishing off fishing on certain species at certain stages. Those involved will recommend that themselves because they will realise it must be done. The more local these partnerships are to the particular fishery, the better. That is how I am trying to develop it.
Were the Minister's negotiations successful in Europe last week? Did he achieve an increased quota for herring fishing this year?
That does not arise on the Estimate.
It does.
It does not. We are dealing strictly with the Estimates, as was the case in the Agriculture and Food Estimate this morning.
We kept our position. That has been helpful but those negotiations dealt with mackerel. The other debates will be about two weeks time.
We are watching closely and tracking things already.
I will be on satellite.
The Chairman and I had the privilege of attending the world food conference in Rome last weekend where I learned that 97 people die in the Third World of hunger every hour. Yet, we are dumping herring and other fish because there is no market for them. I am amazed the EU does not establish some kind of programme whereby herring could be canned or marinated and distributed in the Third World where it would help to keep people alive.
The Deputy's point is a fair one and we will follow it up. There is an old saying that if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day but if you teach him how to fish, he'll eat for the rest of his life. The approach adopted by many Irish agencies in the Third World has been to help people to help themselves and that has been very successful. However, the Deputy's point might be worth while in the light of recentcatastrophes.
The Minister did not answer my question in regard to tuna.
We expect a report on that at the end of January. A number of different methods are being tested currently, including trawling and long lines. The Deputy's general point is true; if one goes out with nets 2.5 kilometres long or more, one will catch fish more easily. We must change with the times and different methods of tuna fishing are being considered. A workshop is due to be held in Castletownbere on this issue on 11 December.
The Minister referred to the Salmon Research Agency being confronted by growing research demands and pointed to the decline in income from own resources due to market and fish health difficulties in its commercial salmon smolt business. What is meant by "fish health difficulties"?
These difficulties arose about six years ago. The Salmon Research Agency was not the only body which experienced "fish health difficulties".
Is it experiencing difficulties now?
It is not directly involved in that business now.
Why is the decline in income linked with fish health difficulties if no such difficulties are being experienced now and if the agency is no longer involved in that area?
To some extent, this is a tidying-up operation. The agency never really recovered its income base and that has resulted in outstanding problems. In the future, the agency willcome under the management of the Marine Institute.
The text of the Minister's statement conveys the impression that market and fish health difficulties are ongoing.
The market and fish health difficulties are residual and which arise from past problems.
Under subhead H2 it is stated that the take-up of grant-in-aid in the whitefish fleet scheme launched in June 1998 is slower than anticipated. The level of take-up of grants-in-aid under subhead H4 has also been slower than anticipated due to delays in getting PESCA projects off the ground at local level. Can one attribute savings under these subheads to a lack of interest?
No, not at all. We set objectives for the end of the year. In regard to the whitefish fleet, vessels have been ordered but there will not be much expenditure prior to the end of December; the figure will rise in the first few months of the new year. Planning and other unforeseen difficulties can arise in regard to the PESCA projects which will result in expenditure being run on and coming slightly after the end of the year. The projects allow us to do something worth while rather than surrendering money at the end of the year. As far as the Marine Institute is concerned, the money offers huge benefit and will assist scientists to carry out a great deal of work in the Atlantic Ocean where 90 per cent of our territory remains unexplored.
The Minister has not made any reference to mariculture development in his Vote. Is everything going according to plan in that regard?
Yes, it is. There has been an acceleration in this area , reflected by the £3 million set aside for this purpose in the budget.
I am disappointed by that allocation; it is a mere drop in the ocean.
Not when one considers the big increases in the overall capital for harbours and so on which is of the order of £7.5 million. Extra funding has also been provided for coastal zone management. Previously, there was no budget for small harbours in which mariculture activities are carried on.
I have tabled a parliamentary question on the matter which is due to be taken next week.
The development of mariculture is a good one; we are looking after the Deputy well.
I hope so.
That concludes our consideration of the Supplementary Estimates for the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources. I thank the Minister, his staff and Members for their attendance.