In accordance with Standing Order 79B, the following message will be sent to the Dáil:
The Select Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine has considered the Supplementary Estimate for the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources.
Message to Dáil.
Sitting suspended at 5.45 p.m. and resumed at 5.47 p.m.
Vote 31 - Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development (Supplementary).
I welcome Deputy Davern, Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, and his officials. The committee will consider a token secondary Supplementary Estimate of £1,000 under Vote 31. This Supplementary Estimate once more reflects the transfer of funds to subheads covered by grants-in-aid. Before I call the Minister, Deputy Dukes wishes to raise an issue. It is a little unorthodox but we will allow him do so.
I will be brief but I was anxious to raise this issue with the Minister. An rud is annamh is íontach and we have not had a ministerial presence in the committee for some time. The Minister is familiar with the issue that concerns me because we discussed it recently during Question Time. It is the ongoing programme in relation to scrapie in County Wexford and the 39 flocks that have been closed.
It is now eight weeks since those flock owners were told that their flocks would be depopulated. They have been waiting since then for depopulation to happen. A number of the animals are coming close to lambing. I understand there was an emerging agreement on price last week but the Department now wants ewes to be scanned before they go to the factory because it suspects some of them might be in lamb. The Minister is probably not in a position to deal with the technicalities of the matter at this stage but the situation is becoming difficult for the flock owners in question. They are now obliged to feed animals they will have to get rid of soon. They are under severe pressure in terms of income and how they manage their farms. I am asking the Minister to take steps to bring this issue to a conclusion at the earliest date. Thank you, Chairman, for allowing me to raise this matter.
I support Deputy Dukes. I received a communication from Wexford today on this matter which is of great concern. There have been a couple of cases in my own area as well. There is a tardiness about this process, particularly in relation to one farmer I know, which is mind boggling. Has the Department undertaken any research of scrapie or given assistance to anybody to research it?
When herds have to be depopulated, there seems be a long gap between the time the disease occurs and when the animals are taken away. In the case of BSE, farmers have to continue feeding cows that have to be destroyed. Those involved in valuation should do their jobs more rapidly, if that is possible.
I agree with Deputy Brady. At the weekend I met a farmer whose herd had BSE and it took a substantial amount of time for the animals to be collected. He felt he was unjustly treated. He took the price he was offered, perhaps because of ignorance, and he did not appeal it. He told me he has no way of replacing the animals with the money he received. I note the Minister is acquiring the track in Clonmel——
We have not reached that yet.
I wish to record my anxiety about this issue. People are finding it difficult to reach agreement with the valuers. Given the difficulties in finding slaughter facilities, it takes some time to move the animals.
I urge the Minister to speak to his valuers who offer only a pittance. A realistic price should be paid for these cattle. It is bad enough for the farmer concerned. Surely the Department should show some lead on compensation. The proper market value of the cattle should be given.
I thank Deputy Dukes for raising the issue of scrapie. Perhaps we are being over cautious in view of foot and mouth disease in Britain. Fortunately, we were spared apart from two cases but I accept that it puts owners under tremendous pressure. I was not aware of the issues until the Deputy raised them today, but I understand he has tabled a question for tomorrow and hopefully he will receive a better reply. UCD is carrying out a small project on scrapie and the Department is considering carrying out its own project to examine the cause and effect. We are being extremely cautious about this matter. We do not want something else to happen in this area.
As members know, there is a mechanism whereby farmers can have their own valuation, a Department valuation or an independent valuation. It takes some time to get that done. I accept that no one is ever happy with a valuation once they have been affected by disease because the value tends to be slightly lower in view of the condition of the animals. I accept it is difficult for farmers to start again as they have to commence with young heifers and go on from there. Disputes about valuations have been running for many years. There are three valuation systems and perhaps it would be better to seek an independent valuation immediately rather than use that of the Department or the farmer himself. They will never get the price they are seeking.
Aside from that, we would like the Minister of State to conclude as quickly as possible on the issue of scrapie.
The Department will be in contact with the Deputy tomorrow, apart from the parliamentary question.
Will the Minister of State ensure that when his Department officials are valuing these animals, they inform the farmer that he has a choice? Some farmers feel it was a case of "take it or leave it".
The three choices are clearly indicated to all farmers, namely, their own valuation, the Department's valuation and an independent valuation.
It was not indicated to the person on whose behalf I am making representations.
Perhaps Deputy Collins could take up that case with the Minister afterwards. We will move on to the Supplementary Estimate.
I am pleased to present for approval a technical Supplementary Estimate for my Department for £1,000 - \1,270 - for Bord na gCon and An Bord Glas. Bord na gCon will receive an increase of £500,000 in the grant-in-aid under subhead E3 for the acquisition of lands for the development of a greyhound track in Clonmel. The last five years have seen remarkable rejuvenation and progress in the greyhound industry. Attendances at greyhound racing have grown from just over 500,000 to 900,000 with the 1 million target expected to be broken next year. Excellent facilities have been introduced at Cork, Shelbourne Park, Harold's Cross and Mullingar, while other capital projects are ongoing or in the planning stages at Limerick, Newbridge, Galway, Waterford, Enniscorthy and Lifford. These developments are all innovative, with particular attractions and a modern standard of comfort and service.
The provision this year of an additional grant-in-aid of £500,000 will enable Bord na gCon to acquire the site on which the current track is located. The track ceased operations some years ago due to legal problems. This will allow the board, in conjunction with local interests, to begin work on the development of a new track in Clonmel. Such a development will be to the benefit of the greyhound industry in general and will also provide a much needed leisure outlet and tourist attraction for the people of the area. Members of the committee will realise that Clonmel has been the capital of greyhound racing, including coursing, for many years. I believe Bord na gCon's headquarters should not be located in Limerick but that matter was decided long before now. Clonmel is an area that should be——
We will not follow that.
The Supplementary Estimate also provides an increase of £113,000 in grant-in-aid for An Bord Glas under subhead D1 for the acquisition of new premises. This is a once off cost in relation to the acquisition of new office accommodation at Blanchardstown, County Dublin. The new premises will provide the board with a larger office at a similar overall rent to their current accommodation in a location which is more convenient and more accessible for clients and customers, particularly those in north Dublin, Kildare and Meath from where the bulk of the produce comes.
An Bord Glas has, in my experience, shown drive, imagination and sound business sense in working with producers, industry and consumers. It has been successful in promoting the horticultural sector and examining the potential of amenity horticulture. It is proposed to fund the increases in the grants-in-aid from savings on financing costs on the market intervention subhead L1. This relates to VAT on the building that is being done. It is a once off on that lease and that is where the costs arise.
This has been a challenging year for agriculture but strong animal health controls, an Exchequer injection of £200 million into market supports and a national spirit of partnership have enabled us all to pull through. The greyhound racing and the horticulture sectors are well placed for future challenges and I commend the technical Supplementary Estimate of £1,000 to the committee.
The Minister concluded by commending the technical Supplementary Estimate. Technically speaking he is right, but it would be an amazing coincidence if the extra cost of £613,000 happened to be matched exactly by savings under the FEOGA subhead. I suspect, although I do not expect the Minister of State to admit it, that at the end of the year when we do the final accounting, the savings on the FEOGA subhead will be in excess of the figure outlined and it will be safe to do what is being proposed. I am not arguing about it, but such coincidences do not happen in life. It is a bit more than a technical Supplementary Estimate, although I do not object to any part of it.
As regards the acquisition of new office accommodation for An Bord Glas, I am prepared to accept that this issue will be discussed with the necessary degree of care and attention and that the new location will be more advantageous to the board than its existing location. I suspect that until we see a major improvement in the M50, the gains in terms of accessibility might be more theoretical than real. The junction between the M50 and the road to Blanchardstown is bad at times. I am happy to accept what the Minister of State said about the offices for An Bord Glas.
The more interesting part of the Vote is the grant-in-aid for the development at Clonmel. The Minister of State referred to other capital projects which are ongoing or in the planning stages. As far as Newbridge is concerned, that capital project has been completed. The refurbished track has opened in Newbridge and is now in business. Although I have not had the pleasure of attending the track since it reopened, I am told it is a substantial improvement on the previous facilities for punters and owners. This refurbishment programme was sorely needed.
Perhaps the Minister of State might reconsider what the Limerick proposal about which there is some local controversy. I refused an invitation the other day to get involved in a Limerick dispute, but since it was brought to my attention I suggest the Minister of State should reconsider it. There are two possible ways to go in Limerick. The location of the current track means there is a major difficulty with parking, apart from the question of facilities at the track. As the Minister of State knows, this difficulty should be taken into account in any city centre location, particularly given the type of growth we have seen in Limerick. Another site, the old horse racing track which has been replaced by a new facility, might be preferable in the longer term. I will not enter into the merits or demerits of the case, but it would be worthwhile for the Minister to reconsider the position.
I hope there will not be any danger of greyhound racing in Clonmel being interrupted by flooding. There is a major problem in Clonmel, about which the Minister of State knows more than I. I commend the Department and Bord na gCon for pursuing this development programme at the tracks because in every case where facilities have been improved, we have seen an increase in business. That applies both in horse racing and greyhound racing. Shelbourne Park in Dublin is one of the "in" places to go for people who would not have thought about going greyhound racing some years ago. It has become an item on the agenda for a night out. The more we see of such development around the country, the better. There is a good market for high class facilities at race tracks and we should encourage the continuation of this programme.
I welcome the Minister of State and his officials and thank them for presenting the Supplementary Estimate this evening. I salute the efforts of the Department and Bord na gCon in terms of the excellent rejuvenation and refurbishment programme at a number of greyhound tracks throughout the country. It is anticipated that more than one million customers will go through the gates within the next year. This is a significant improvement which will result in increased participation by young and old and an opportunity for people to enjoy the comforts and convenience of these new facilities. The fact that it will attract people to sporting and leisure pursuits vindicates the stance of the Department and of Bord na gCon to invest money on which there will be a significant return. Any cost-benefit evaluation should be positive. The investment in the track in Mullingar, which has been open for the past 12 months, has been repaid. The same is true in the horse industry. Everyone wants to attend the Kilbeggan race meetings which are held six times a year.
Kilbeggan is the "in" place.
Yes. I am glad that people from rural and urban areas have made it a number one venue to attend for a nice evening.
Socialist yuppies.
I remind Deputy Dukes that many capitalists did not spend a penny in those places. It was the unfortunate working class people who placed bets and were often losers. Some of the capitalists did not pay them too much to bet on anything. That was a major let-down.
I want to speak briefly about a couple of topics which are not on the agenda. I remind the Minister of State that the live valuation system in terms of compensation for losses was promised as part of the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness in February 2000.
Deputy Penrose should keep to the agenda.
I am keeping to the agenda. This is important. Market valuation is now only available for farmers with breakdowns of six or more reactors or with pedigree herds. My information is that less than 1% of the numbers involved go to arbitration. There is a disparity between some of the market values provided initially. This is a major issue which must be considered. Surely professional people should have accurate figures.
It is a different valuation.
People know the figures to within a small amount from an early stage. There should be fewer problems and the market value system should be put in place. I am sure everyone is aware they will have three bites of the cherry, although this will prove cumbersome. We sought the arbitration system and must now live with it. I acknowledge that it at least gives people another form of recourse.
I had better keep to the agenda because the Chairman is in a tetchy mood this evening. I accept what was said about the accommodation for An Bord Glas. Some of these headquarters could be facilitated in rural areas as part of the decentralisation programme. I urge the Minister of State, who comes from a rural area, to ensure that as many parts of the Department as possible are decentralised. I have a great grá for my home area of Mullingar, which is the centre of the country. The local authority is willing and able to provide sites and buildings to facilitate decentralisation. I ask the Minister of State to keep that in mind in the future.
I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. Deputy Dukes mentioned the relocation of the track in Limerick. One must bear in mind that Bord na gCon has purchased property adjacent to where the track is situated in the Markets Field. Bord na gCon then decided to sell the Markets Field site and relocate the track to Green Park where the old racecourse was situated. Unfortunately, Limerick Corporation decided that the site cannot be sold for housing, which is what Bord na gCon was hoping to do. Now they find there is a problem because Bord na gCon changed its mind and wants to refurbish the current track.
I agree with Deputy Dukes that opinion is divided on this matter. I do not know if the Minister has received any deputations. As long as the track is situated where it is, it will never enjoy the same success as Harold's Cross or Shelbourne Park. People will not park there because there is too much vandalism to cars. How much money is Bord na gCon short? I have heard sums ranging from £1 million to £3 million mentioned. Is the Minister in a position to state how much Bord na gCon will require to relocate to Green Park?
As the Minister knows, I have been involved with greyhounds all my life. I wish to compliment Mr. Paschal Taggart and the board of Bord na gCon for the magnificent work they have done over the years. The Minister mentioned that Clonmel is the capital of greyhound track and coursing and I have no problem accepting that point. However, I have brought my begging bowl with me this evening. When the Horse and Greyhound Bill was being debated, I got a commitment from the Minister, Deputy Walsh, both in committee and in the House, that coursing would not become the lame duck of the industry and that it would be looked after. I still have not received any indication of what financial allocation will be made in this regard. The Minister might be in a position to clarify that point. The Minister is a greyhound enthusiast, as some of us are, and he knows that coursing is the backbone of the greyhound industry. I am not seeking large amounts of money and neither is the coursing industry, but it needs to be recognised through a financial allocation. The Minister should look into that matter.
I appreciate the Minister's efforts, following a discussion in the Dáil, to alleviate the serious problems confronting beet growers, which have major implications for us all. The Minister has made every effort to resolve the matter. The Estimate does not cause me any difficulty, although I am somewhat disappointed that there is no reference to Clones. There was a vibrant greyhound track at Clones and a number of people were in discussions with a view to re-opening it, but I do not know what was the outcome. I would prefer £500,000 to be allocated to Clones rather than Clonmel, but that is a purely parochial view.
Would the Deputy?
I would like that interest in the Clones track followed up and I will revert to the Minister about it. Cattle belonging to 192 farmers were collected by the Department under the TB/brucellosis eradication scheme, but those farmers have not yet received their compensatory payments. The total amount owed to the farmers whose animals were slaughtered for the Department in Henshaws was in the region of £200,000. The issue is a serious one for those farmers and I hope the matter can be sorted out before Christmas. They should receive the money they deserve.
It was agreed in the PPF that live valuation would be put in place. However, because they had less than six animals, most of these farmers could not utilise the live valuation process. They had to allow their cows to be collected by the Department and sold to a meat factory, but the Department negotiated the price, took delivery of the animals and chose the factory. I raised this matter in the Dáil but I am raising it again under the Estimate because these farmers should get what is owed to them. It is unfair that one person who was allowed to sell under valuation, because he had over six animals, was paid in full, while his neighbour who had less than six animals, because of a departmental technicality, only received a grant, not the salvage price.
I wish to be associated with Deputy Crawford's complimentary remarks about the work the Minister did in the early stages of the dispute between Greencore and the farmers. Hopefully, that will be successfully concluded soon. I fully support the call for these farmers to be compensated.
It is not a matter for the Estimates.
I know, but the Chairman knows what I mean. Nobody may be affected in Wexford, but eight farmers in Meath are affected. One farmer in my area is affected to the tune of over £6,000 and it is no joke. They should be compensated because the Department removed the cattle to Henshaws which, unfortunately, went into liquidation. I appeal to the Minister to do something about it, although I am not seeking an answer today.
I am not involved in greyhound racing, although I like to watch it on television occasionally. Since the track closed at Navan, however, a large number of people from Meath travel to Mullingar to see greyhound racing there. Having spoken to owners, trainers and punters, it is clear that marvellous work has been done on that stadium, which is a credit to all concerned. We do not begrudge an Estimate to develop Clonmel because there is great interest in greyhound racing there.
I welcome the fact that the new Bord Glas offices will be brought closer to the countryside. The new premises will be more accessible for clients in County Meath. As Deputy Penrose said, it is a pity it was not brought further down the N3 to Kells or Oldcastle.
That is a long way from anywhere.
It is the heartland of agriculture in County Meath.
Before the Minister replies, I have no problem with £500,000 being allocated to Clonmel. However, I dispute the view that it is the home of greyhound racing when one considers the claims of Enniscorthy and Wexford. I remind the Minister that phase 1 of the Enniscorthy course was completed a few years ago and funding is now being sought for phase 2. The Minister might let me know if he can speed up the process to bring it to a conclusion.
If there was a vote here today I would probably vote against the relocation of the Bord Glas offices - the Minister is aware of my concerns - simply because of the penny-pinching attitude of Bord Glas to the Wexford strawberry fair festival. For a number of years, Bord Glas allocated money to the festival, but for the past two years it has shied away from doing so. Wexford is the home of horticulture, including fruit growing, and, therefore, Bord Glas should consider re-introducing sponsorship for the strawberry festival in 2002. The Bord Glas offices should have been decentralised from Dublin to Enniscorthy. The Minister may wish to comment on the penny-pinching attitude of Bord Glas concerning the Wexford strawberry fair.
Chairman, the mushrooms are for the most part grown in County Monaghan and the office should, therefore, be located in Monaghan.
It was a Wexford man, Deputy Howlin, who started it.
I see we are sprouting again now.
We had the Bord na gCon offices and he wanted to take them to Clonmel.
Please allow the Minister of State to conclude.
They should have been located in Clonmel in the 1940s. That is when the decision was made.
I thank the members for their contributions and I thank Deputy Dukes for what he said about Bord na gCon. I also compliment Deputy Dukes because he was the first man to reduce taxation in Ireland which brought in a huge amount of funds. I hope the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, will examine the position in England where taxation on betting offices has been totally withdrawn, causing money to move outside of Ireland to the UK markets. It is an area which Deputy Dukes progressed and his action resulted in a tremendous increase in the number of bets placed or at least recorded. I would not be as wealthy a punter as Deputy Collins.
The Minister has a better knowledge than I have.
Deputy Dukes raised the issue of flooding in Clonmel. Can I assure him that, as of next Monday, 3 December, we are launching a plan to prevent the flooding of Clonmel which will involve the spending of in the region of £30 million. The scheme will be completed within a year and a half and will ensure that the greyhound track's future endeavours will not be affected by flooding.
Deputy Penrose raised the issue of the agreements regarding six or more cattle and the arbitration system. This was agreed last June with all the farming organisations, including Macra na Feirme. While we would all like to see it expedited, the process can become cumbersome where people in various areas dig in their heels. Unfortunately, evaluations are always a matter of dispute.
In reply to Deputy Collins, there is no question of the board being £3 million short, rather it is a question of there being a large number of ongoing projects. This project has been in a legal quagmire for four years because a person involved went bust and, unfortunately, held on to a lease which caused many problems. This allocation is an additional provision to assist the board. I take this opportunity to praise the chairman of the board, Mr. Paschal Taggart, and all the board members for their tremendous foresight.
Deputies Crawford and Brady referred to Henshaws. We will come back to them tomorrow with the up to date information on this matter. I have a strong feeling that the Department has some responsibility in this area.
The Chairman mentioned Bord Glas and its penny-pinching attitude. Bord Glas has now reached a target of almost £300 million output in the past two years. I praise its chairman and the board members who have done a tremendous job. The moneys it has put in this year have been used on advertising and I am particularly impressed that they succeeding in getting one of our best athletes to become involved in its advertising. The board has done a tremendous job in the area of promotion.
It is a matter for Bord Glas to decide on what it wishes to sponsor. The Chairman referred to the Strawberry Fair in Wexford. I appreciate that Wexford is a great county for strawberry growing and acknowledge the great work done there. The Chairman will be aware that when frost struck Wexford the Department and the board came to the rescue of people who lost their crops with a special grant-in-aid.
I know the Chairman is particularly anxious that the greyhound industry would improve and expand. I know he has not had great success in the horse racing industry and it seems to get worse with his new ventures. Hopefully, he will invest in a dog and have some success in this area.
The issue regarding the greyhound track in Limerick is an awkward one, as Deputy Collins will be aware. The corporation has in fact stymied the board's plans. I agree with the Deputy that the old racecourse would have been ideal from the point of view of parking and ease of access from rural areas, especially with the new roundabouts in Limerick. Unfortunately, the corporation, in its wisdom, decided nothing else could be done with it. Perhaps it could be moved to the fairgreen or a similar location, but something must be done about the parking and security provisions in this area. There are a number of security firms in Limerick which the Deputy might like to contact in that regard.
No comment.
We will leave it unsaid so. I thank members for their support.
The Minister of State never mentioned the coursing.
Forgive me. I have followed that matter up on two occasions but have not yet received a financial indication. I will follow it up again with the assistant secretary who is responsible for this area and will get back to the Deputy tomorrow.
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Davern, and his officials for attending today's meeting. I also thank members for their contributions.