We are convened to take evidence on the Arts Bill, 2002 and members have been circulated with the submissions that were received. Should any other submissions be received, they will also be circulated between now and the Bill coming before us on 11 December. While witnesses have been allocated ten minutes speaking time, I consider that five minutes per speaker would be adequate given the large number of speakers who are seeking to contribute. This would mean they would have a chance to expand on their areas following the questions that will be put to them.
Arts Bill, 2002: Submissions
Does the Chair think it is sufficient to ask questions when they finish or is it better to wait until they have all finished and ask questions afterwards?
There will be 12 people before us and we will take them in two groups of six. I would like to get through the first six speakers and then ask them questions before taking the second group of six.
Does the Chairman mean to ask questions after the first six?
Yes.
And ask more after the second group of six?
We will finish with one group before commencing with the other. There will be a presentation by the first group which will be followed by a question and answer session. We will then take the second group for questions. It is intended to allow half an hour for presentations and five minutes to each speaker, to be followed by questions. Is it agreed to take the two groups of six with questions from Members following each group? Agreed.
Due to other commitments we will call the first group which is as follows: Katie Verling, Glór; Professor Dáithí Ó hÓgáin; Garry Shannon and Pádraig Ó Raghallaigh, the Irish Independent Traditional Festival; Catherine Kelly, Westmeath County Council; and Tom Sherlock, Sherlock Business Management. The witnesses will now be brought before the committee.
As stated before the witnesses joined us, we are taking submissions on the Arts Bill, 2002 - the first such legislation to come before the Dáil in 30 years. From our perspective we are delighted about that and it is a pleasure to welcome a number of people who will give us their thoughts on the aspect of the Bill that has generated much debate.
We will try to conclude the morning's business by lunch-time and, therefore, everyone will be given a five minute slot in which to speak. We will then have questions from Members. As we will hear now from a group of six witnesses, followed by another group of six, I ask people to be brief in their initial contributions. We can, hopefully, expand the debate with questions from members. Perhaps the witnesses might introduce themselves.
Ms Katie Verling
I am Katie Verling from Glór Irish Music Centre in Ennis.
Professor Dáithí Ó hÓgáin
I am Dáithí Ó hÓgáin from the department of Irish folklore, University College Dublin.
Mr. Garry Shannon
I am Garry Shannon, member of Kilfenora céilí band, musician and recording artist.
Mr. Pádraig Ó Raghallaigh
I am Pádraig Ó Raghallaigh from County Clare. I am chairman of the Corofin traditional festival, leader of the Ennis céilí band, musician and recording artist.
I am Tom Sherlock. I run a management and consultancy company for traditional musicians.
My name is Catherine Kelly. I am arts officer with Westmeath County Council and I represent the views of Westmeath Arts Forum.
Members of the committee are covered by absolute privilege, but that does not apply to witnesses who appear before it. I ask people to bear that in mind in their presentations. We will start with Ms Verling.
Ms Verling
A Chathaoirligh agus a chomhchoiste, go raibh míle maith agaibh as cuireadh a thabhairt dom labhairt libh inniu faoi mBille Ealaíon, 2002.
I am Katie Verling, director of Glór Irish Music Centre in Ennis, County Clare. I come from a very musical background and have been deeply involved in the Irish music and arts sectors all my life.
Glór opened its doors this time last year and what has emerged is an acknowledgement of the wealth of Irish music in County Clare and the strength and vibrancy of the tradition in Ireland. It is our aim to showcase the quality and diversity of this great musical resource to a national and international audience. Glór is funded by Clare local authorities and is not an Arts Council client. In the past year we have hosted performances by Martin Hayes, Tony McMahon, Sharon Shannon, Maura O'Connell, Noel Hill, the Kilfenora and Tulla céilí bands, Dervish, Altan, Christy Moore and many more, including both Pádraig Ó Raghallaigh and Garry Shannon who are present today.
What drives those involved in Glór is a huge pride in the rich musical resource in Ireland and the fact that this resource is growing and developing. Irish music is constantly adapting and changing to accommodate new influences and styles while remaining true to itself and its unique Irish identity. Our aim is to give Irish musicians a place where they can show off their great skills and musicality to a local, national and international audience.
With this objective in mind, I was invited by the then Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera, to take part in the consultation process which preceded the development of this Bill. I attended a two day session in Dún Laoghaire which was facilitated by PricewaterhouseCoopers. The expert committee on which I participated discussed traditional arts and the merits of establishing a separate traditional arts council.
There was broad and unanimous agreement on the need to develop greater resources for traditional music. We agreed it was time the Arts Council righted the wrongs that had been done to traditional music over the years in terms of under-funding the sector and ignoring its specific needs. However, great difficulties arose over the proposal to right this wrong by establishing a separate committee for traditional arts. There was a strong and broad consensus against the proposal.
We believe that traditional music and arts should be allowed stand in their own right among the arts. The time of cultural inferiority complexes is over. Irish music, oral literature, crafts and other traditional art forms do not need to be detached from other art forms and to suggest they do is both divisive and patronising.
The old art forms meet different needs and share common objectives requiring appreciation, better resourcing, greater audiences and participation and a commitment to quality. However, traditional musicians are musicians, traditional music is music and step-dancing is dance. These are art forms and are part of Ireland's unique and rich cultural expression.
Glór sees the Arts Bill as positive legislation for the arts in Ireland. It is a workable model for the arts and the Arts Council in the 21st century. The extension of the definition of the arts, the reworking of the relationship between the Minister, the Department, the Arts Council and the arts sector is clear, democratic, transparent and entirely accountable. However, provisions under section 21 of the Arts Bill are hugely negative and problematic for me and my colleagues in Glór.
The common problem everyone in the arts community, and those in traditional music in particular, share is that in the past it was established that only 1% of the Arts Council budget was given to traditional arts, but the solution lies with the funding priorities of the Arts Council. It is not about setting up a new structure that isolates traditional arts from other art forms. As Theo Dorgan recommended in his report on the consultation process, logic and fiscal rectitude hand in hand suggest that the answer to the problem of funding traditional music lies within the existing structures, if not in the existing practices. Now, 20 months later and after all the consultation, we find ourselves revisiting the old arguments.
The proposal to set up the standing committee on traditional arts is as divisive as any I have ever encountered. Division is not a good basis for a standing committee with funding powers. Traditional music should not be separated from other music in the arts and it is with a huge sense of urgency that we address the committee because we are convinced that this proposal must not be enshrined in legislation.
There are three main problems with section 21. In establishing a standing committee with funding powers for traditional arts, organisations like Glór are presented with a problem. To whom do we apply for funding? What are the standards by which we are measured? Are the standards laid down by the Arts Council, which has consulted with the arts sector and devised an arts plan? Is that what we are to use as our framework or will the standing committee employ a separate set of criteria or value judgments?
The interesting aspect of this new legislation is the clear relationship that extends from the Minister to the Department, the Arts Council and the arts sector. That is a clear, accountable process, but putting in "monstrous carbuncles", to quote Prince Charles, which are essentially the free floating standing committees, with separate powers, will undermine a process which should be accountable and transparent.
I have to ask Ms Verling to conclude, but we can return to this matter during the question and answer session.
As Ms Verling did not have time to make all the points she wanted to make, perhaps she would give the text of her contribution to the members.
Ms Verling
Yes, I will.
Where scripts are being used——
They will be circulated.
That would be helpful regardless of whether the full text has been read by the witness.
If witnesses have scripts, it would be helpful if they drew from them the main points they wish to make in the five minutes allocated. I understand they were told they would have ten minutes, but to facilitate people and to deal with the matter efficiently, they will have five minutes to make their presentations. I call Professor Ó hÓgáin.
Professor Ó hÓgáin
Is mian liom mo bhuíochas ó chroí a chur in iúl díbh as an gcaoi a thabhairt dom teacht os bhur gcomhair anseo inniu. Geallaim díbh nach beag de dhua an mhachnaimh atá curtha orm féin agam agus mé ag cíoradh na ceiste seo le tamall. Teastaíonn uaim a rá, chomh maith, nach le bladhmann ná le baois, le naimhdeas ná le gangaid chun éinne atá fúm dul ag caint, ach chun leasa an chultúir agus chun adhainte ar ealaín de réir mar is díograisí agus is dúthrachtaí atá im chumas-sa. As mo thaithí de bhreis is tríocha bliain mar scríbhneoir cruthaitheach agus mar scoláire béaloidis atá na smaointe seo agam.
I do not think anybody can honestly suggest it is good for public policy that the Arts Council should remain unchanged in terms of its existing form. It is seen as not being sufficiently accountable for several reasons. First, decision-making involving full use of its funds is made by the members according to some subjective feeling about what constitutes art, a feeling which to my knowledge has never been defined and, therefore, is not open to scrutiny. All indications are that this subjective feeling, or these subjective feelings, are determined by something as ephemeral as fashion or PR business, which in artistic terms is the equivalent of the blind leading the blind. In other words, we must state clearly that the first necessary point with regard to accountability is definition. The Arts Council should be reformed so as to provide a series of definitions of its understanding of art and culture.
Second, these definitions, and the evaluation carried out in accordance with them, should be clear. There should be clarity with regard to the procedures involved in selecting projects for financial support, and this should entail appropriate explanations given as to why projects are accepted for support or rejected. The Arts Council should be clear in its dealings with writers, artists and the general public, and its interest in, and concern for, all should also be clear. It is apparent that the council takes a great interest in those who appear to be, as one might say, "on the inside track". It should be clear that the council has a comparable interest in those with whom members of the council are less acquainted - to adopt a phrase, those "on outside tracks". Such a development would be more than welcome, as it would abolish the concept of different tracks.
Third, the current sense of exclusiveness or exclusivity - more directly described as the policy of exclusion - should be abolished. Such exclusion takes place, sometimes subconsciously, because of factors which make it inevitable. We mention here only in passing the obvious fact that the Arts Council should guard against, rather than encourage, human failings such as the development of coteries as vehicles for ambition. Exclusion also results from the "feel good" or, more accurately, the "feel superior" factor experienced by many in the so-called arts "elite" - people who appear to be at sea in positions for which they have no clear qualification. Accordingly, they feel a need for self-protection, from which need pretentiousness is born. I need hardly stress the point that pretentiousness is the state of being continually afflicted by pretence, and I need hardly add that pretence is the most deadly enemy of all true art. The substitution of inclusion for exclusion is therefore an absolute necessity in the development of an arts policy. I say inclusion because such a policy is in accord with all the best current thinking on social policy in terms of equality and openness. Any good understanding of culture demands inclusiveness as a basic constituent element, and here we come to the crux of the matter. For a whole generation I have failed to elicit a definition of culture from the Arts Council. I have failed even to obtain a working definition of culture from the council and this more than anything else indicates that changes of the most fundamental character are required. For the record, and again by way of challenge, I offer my own working definition: "Culture in the individual sense is the interplay between the person and the environment; culture in the communal sense is the creative aggregate of factors resulting from the interplay between the society and the environment."
With regard to the provisions of the Arts Bill, I would wish to see it addressing these issues with far greater vision and daring. The three new standing committees which are proposed are the absolute minimum if there is to be any change at all. I will deal with them individually. The innovation committee involves an important departure from the subjectivist and strait-jacketed understanding of the arts. In place of snide circumlocutions on the nature of art, this committee would give the Arts Council the opportunity to bravely and adventurously open up the whole question of aesthetics to a new generation. Society was never more in need of this. Young lives can be enriched immeasurably by the thrill of engagement with the intellect and with truth and beauty through the great power of the human imagination.
The committee to develop greater involvement on the local level is also an important departure, for the social value of culture can be seen in the many good results from a thriving local heritage. However, the quantitative involvement in local areas which the Arts Council has been developing is not matched by a qualitative involvement which would give us a vista of inclusion and welcome participation.
With regard to a committee on the traditional arts, I am puzzled as to why a small minority of people engaged in the area oppose this so vehemently. Perhaps it is that, for some reason or other, they feel beholden to the existing structures.
The UNESCO policy on the preservation and development of traditional art forms is the product of leading experts in the field appointed by the governments of the world. This policy should be implemented by the Arts Council and its analysis and proposals would provide an ideal basis for the work of this committee.
The focus on traditional art in the debate is too narrow because traditional culture involves oral narrative, oral poetry, fold history, folk drama, traditional customs, folk architecture, crafts and skills as well as music, song and dance.
Go raibh fada buan sibh i mbun bhur gcuid saothair.
Go raibh maith agat.
Mr. Shannon
I am speaking in my capacity as a musician. I have an MA in traditional music performance from the University of Limerick and I am also a member of the board of directors of the National Concert Hall. I and Padraig O'Reilly, who is also from County Clare, have prepared a joint script and we propose to make a presentation in three sections, in respect of which I will deal with sections A and B.
Section A deals with issues raised by those who oppose aspects of the Bill. I wish to deal with the contention that the traditional arts sub-committee will ghettoise the sector. Through its neglect of the sector during the past 51 years, the Arts Council has done more than anybody else to ghettoise the traditional arts in relation to other arts genres. Support of the traditional arts has been in the region of 1% of the Arts Council budget. This is indefensible. In practice, the Arts Council interprets its remit as the protection and promotion of the fine arts and places the traditional arts far down the priority list. A quote from the minutes of the Arts Council, published in The Creative Imperative in 1999, reads, "There are dangers in concentrating too much time and energy on the folk-arts [and] that an arts council must cater primarily for the higher and elite works. . . "
This mindset has been ingrained in the Arts Council over the years. The record of the council over five decades suggests that its attitude to the traditional arts will not change unless compelled by legislation. The council recently proclaimed a new strategy for the traditional arts. However, since the council confirmed in The Irish Times on Tuesday its conviction that funding of the traditional arts sector is adequate at 1%, this new strategy will produce nothing of substance. No change is the new strategy for the traditional arts.
I also wish to deal with the contention that the traditional art committee will suffocate development in the sector. On the contrary, such a committee would provide the Arts Council with a vital injection of expertise. It will provide at last an opportunity to formulate solid, detailed strategies for the promotion and protection of the native arts. This has been sorely lacking up to now.
It is clear from the submissions during the consultative process that a significant majority of respondents sought a funding allocation for the sector, either through a new traditional arts council or within the existing structure. We support the compromise offered in the Bill, but we also recommend that there should be a ringfenced allocation of funding to the traditional arts sector. A 20% allocation would mean €9 million next year. One would not be long climbing out of the ghetto with such a level of funding at one's disposal. It is our belief that without a ringfenced allocation to the traditional arts and a fixed proportion of the Arts Council budget framed by legislation, the proposed committee will be toothless and there will not be a change in the level of funding to the sector.
Why do we want a sub-committee for the traditional arts and not other art forms? Submissions from the other sectors did not demand any special provision and did not display such a level of unhappiness with the current structures. The native arts are what distinguish us from other cultures. They are not borrowed, so if we neglect them, we neglect our identity. We will lose what defines us as Irish people. We do not claim that the native arts are globally more valuable than the generic arts. However, their identity as our national heritage means special support enshrined in legislation. In the case of other international art forms, such constitutional provision is not relevant.
There is a contention that a majority did not oppose the proposal for a traditional arts council. Contrary to what Ms Verling said, during the consultative process 60% of the 233 respondents expressed an interest in the traditional arts. Only 13% of that group said they were against a traditional arts council. Some 22% did not express a preference and 65% were in favour of it.
I have a few observations on the motives behind the opposition to the Bill. As regards those campaigning against the Bill through The Irish Times and the broadcast media, one wonders about the real reasons for such passion, concentration of effort and expensive resources over a few technicalities which make relatively little difference from an artistic viewpoint. Despite the smoke and mirrors, it is obvious that the overriding factor is money. We have mentioned that 1% of Arts Council funding goes to the traditional arts. With little variation, that goes to the same clients year after year. There are five or six regular beneficiaries. The Bill will change that. Some have become dependent on Arts Council patronage and they seem to fear the prospect of new guests at the table. We question their judgment in the route they have chosen. Their fears of diminished funding are misguided, given the groundswell of opinion and the enhanced level of subvention we now expect. It would be unfortunate if their fear of change undermined the consensus achieved during the consultative process. The legislation will not be revisited for another 30 years and the next generation will not forgive us for allowing this wonderful opportunity to be squandered.
Mr. Ó Raghallaigh
I am here to represent the views of a group of independent traditional festivals around the country. There is a list of the festivals, which currently totals 15, in the material we submitted. Examples of such festivals include the Ballyshannon folk and traditional music festival in County Donegal, the Ennis, Corofin and Dunbeg festivals in County Clare, two festivals in Galway, three festivals in Limerick and a host of others.
It is worth noting that in the past week one the country's largest and longest standing cultural bodies, Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, has come down firmly on the side of the new Arts Bill. This is an umbrella organisation of 21 different members. It supports the provisions of the traditional arts standing committee. These groupings are listed, but significant members would include An tOireachtas, Gael Linn and Conradh na Gaeilge.
The traditional festivals I represent have given me a mandate to express support for section 21 of the Bill and to urge the committee to introduce a ringfenced proportion of Arts Council funding for the traditional arts. The group festivals I represent did not take part in the consultative process because at the time we were unaware of it. Many of our festivals are members of AOIFE, the Association of Irish Festival Events, and they are listed on Bord Fáilte's list of Irish festivals. Despite that, none of the 20 festivals to whom I have spoken over the past three weeks was aware of the impending legislation and its relevance to the traditional arts sector. It has been left to some of the more informed independent festival directors to educate the rest about the Bill. We regard that as a failure by the Arts Council whose duty it is to raise awareness of the arts. Surely a truly pluralist Arts Council should have a full database of arts organisations and be prepared to circularise them on a matter of such importance.
These festivals are only a sample of the multitude of festivals across the country. There are many other festival directors to whom I have spoken who are currently evaluating the Arts Bill. Early indications are that the list of 15 will grow substantially as people become more aware of the Bill in the coming weeks. Many of these festivals face uncertain futures in 2003 as corporate sponsorship has been seriously curtailed. It is sad that so much hinges on corporate sponsorship policies. We regard that as a stunning indictment of the way traditional festivals and the traditional arts have been dismissed by the Arts Council. Despite having to seek corporate sponsorship, many of these events are not commercial in nature. They include exhibitions, lectures, seminars, recitals and minority interest concerts. It will be argued by the Arts Council that many traditional nation-wide festivals do not currently apply for Arts Council funding. That is due to the history of poor funding and the council's disregard for the traditional sector, with a few notable exceptions, such as the Willie Clancy summer school.
All one must do is examine the categories available to festivals under the current Arts Council award schemes to see that its policy and criteria must be altered to accommodate applications from the traditional arts sector. That is why we support section 21 of the Bill and why we also seek a ringfenced allocation of funding of 15% to 20% for our traditional arts. The standing committee is already a compromise from the initial Green Paper objective of a separate traditional arts council.
A small allocation of funding spread evenly across the independent festivals over the years would have done a lot to ease the disquiet which now exists. The Arts Council has failed to do that and it is our contention that it will not do that if the status quo is maintained. The changes in structure suggested by the Bill, particularly the reduction in council membership to nine members and the introduction of the complementary standing committees, will go some way towards restoring the confidence of the independent festivals in the Arts Council, which is sadly lacking at present.
The traditional Irish festival is the backbone of traditional music in Ireland and its support through the pre-existing arts legislation has been practically non-existent. It is regrettable that while traditional Irish music festivals are a great success throughout the world in places such as Copenhagen, Germany and America, festivals in Ireland are still severely underfunded and heavily dependent on commercial interests.
The Arts Council has pledged in its arts plan for 2002 to 2006 to support the development of the traditional arts. The reaction of our festivals to that claim is one of complete distrust and disillusionment. The independent traditional festivals will require more than a pledge from the Arts Council in order to restore our confidence in a body which has proven itself over the half century of its existence to be more interested in the elite art forms to the detriment of the indigenous arts. The committee has an opportunity to redress the imbalance which has militated against our native art forms over the past 51 years. Those art forms have done a lot to restore our sense of cultural identity and national pride. I implore the committee not to waste that opportunity.
I work with traditional musicians as an artist manager. I have been involved with traditional music for the past 20 years. I gained wide experience while working with Claddagh Records. Over the past six years I have provided management services for a wide range of traditional musicians, many of whom are prominent professionals.
Like everyone else here, I am concerned about the Arts Council's funding for traditional music. The figure of 1% was mentioned. All art forms would welcome an increase in funding. Regardless of the art form in which one is involved, one will always look to the Arts Council, which is the statutory body charged with funding and developing the arts, for increased funding. I am concerned about how the Arts Council funds and operates the area in which I and the people I represent are involved.
I welcome the new arts plan which predicates how the Arts Council will spend and allocate its funding. The new arts plan for 2002 to 2006 is the most positive and forward thinking document the Arts Council has produced in the past 15 to 20 years, especially with regard to traditional music. I am concerned about how section 21 of the new Arts Bill will impinge on that.
The arts plan acknowledges the emergence of a commercial management structure in response to a competitive performance in Ireland and abroad. It refers to support for concert performance, mobility grants, in-career management structures, exchange opportunities, critical discourse and writing. These are positive developments. I am sure Pádraig Ó Raghallaigh, Garry Shannon and people I know would welcome them.
This is a positive and new step by the Arts Council and I would be loath to see section 21 implemented and a separate standing committee established. I would be concerned that if, as proposed under the Bill, there was to be a new standing committee, it would cause conflict and impinge on the implementation of what I see as positive developments addressed by the Arts Council regarding traditional music.
I have heard reference to the consultative process and I would take issue with Garry's interpretation of it. A meeting was called in October 1999 in Smithfield at which I understand a unanimous decision was taken to reject the idea of a separate arts council. I am concerned that section 21 of the Bill will provide for the creation of a traditional arts council under another guise. This was rejected at the public consultation in Smithfield. There was no outcome to the Dún Laoghaire meeting in May 2001, on which PricewaterhouseCoopers reported, and no positive recommendation that a separate committee be established. In so far as there has been consultation with the traditional music sector, on both occasions there has been no recommendation for a separate arts council to address the issue of funding for traditional music or arts.
Traditional arts are not defined in the Bill. Unlike previous arts legislation, the Bill does not provide for the exclusion of Members of the Oireachtas from any standing committees were they to be established. That would be a cause of concern for many people in the traditional music sector. We all share something in common. There is an existing mechanism by which the Minister can address this issue. He can, by ministerial order, establish a committee which could ring-fence increased funding for traditional music. We would all welcome that. However, this committee should not have funding powers.
The transparency and accountability of the Arts Council should be left in place. There is a genuine concern that this could be affected if a standing committee was to be established. The Minister can decree, by order, that a committee be formed to address these issues. I will put relevant proposals to the committee later.
I thank the committee for allowing members of Westmeath arts forum to have the opportunity to express their views. Westmeath County Council appointed an arts officer for the first time in January 2002. The collective arts community in County Westmeath, therefore, missed out on the opportunity to make a submission as part of the consultation process that took place before my appointment. Earlier this year, the local authority established an arts forum which is a non-statutory, voluntary group aimed at providing advice on the preparation and implementation of the county arts plan.
The arts forum offers advice to the county council on arts related issues on an ongoing basis. It comprises a group of 25 people including elected members from the county council and representatives from all art forms and organisations throughout the county. Further to a meeting of the forum held on 25 September 2002, the members of the forum considered the Arts Bill.
Although the Bill is broadly welcomed as a long overdue updating of arts legislation, members of the forum expressed their concerns about sections 6, 11 and 21. Section 6 provides that a local authority shall prepare and implement plans for the development of the arts within their functional areas. However, it then goes on to provide that a local authority may provide financial or other assistance to stimulate public interest in the arts. It would prove very difficult to implement and deliver a county arts plan without adequate financial programming assistance, which could be provided by the local authority. A plan cannot be implemented without the obligation to provide funding. If the word "may" is changed to "shall", this would lift the extra burden from the Arts Council in relation to funding that could be made available through the local authority.
Under section 11, the proposal to reduce the composition of the Arts Council from 17 to nine members will imply that a full regional representation will not be possible. This is a matter of concern to residents of County Westmeath who have never had a representative on the council. Such a small membership will invariably lead to lack of adequate representation of all art forms and to an increased workload on already overworked council members.
Westmeath arts forum is concerned about section 21, which deals with the establishment of ministerial controlled separate standing committees. The structure of the legislation would allow an organisation to control the agenda in defining what local authorities do in relation to the arts and what is deserving of funding within that definition. Furthermore, the legislation leaves the way open to the possibility of conflicting views arising between the proposed arts council and the standing committees on arts activities within a local authority setting. A disagreement at this level would prove difficult to resolve and could lead to an impasse among the bodies charged with funding the arts.
Section 17 provides that where a member of the council is elected to the Houses of the Oireachtas or the European Parliament, he or she shall cease to be a member of the Arts Council. This rule should be applied to ministerial involvement in the appointment of members of standing committees. To date, the Arts Council has done a fair and objective job. It would be prudent for the Minister to retain that reputation. Political nominations are not representative of the arts. The council has worked very hard by managing, on its own, to keep in touch regionally. It is important to maintain a broad representation on various arts fora and organisations.
The Bill neglects to deal in any substantial way with arts and health, an area in which there is great activity in County Westmeath, or arts and education, which is of profound importance to the future development and promotion of the arts. Not only can the involvement of students in the arts stimulate creativity and facilitate different forms of expression, it also encourages them to participate in the arts, thus helping to build future audiences. In another 20 years, the children this legislation affects will invest their money in the arts and this will help the economy.
It is no secret that quality of life issues, aided by cultural practice, are essential to attracting industry and investors to an area. It is, therefore, essential to produce a future generation of artistically involved and educated individuals who will attract overseas investors. Think globally and act locally. Highlighting education in the Bill could also, for example, address the serious decline in music literacy, an issue that is very important to County Westmeath.
Westmeath arts forum, by resolution, requested that I, as Westmeath county arts officer, address the committee and articulate our concerns about the Bill. As a non-statutory advisory body established by the local authority, the forum believes that by highlighting areas it considers could be problematic to the arts in Ireland the committee will consider its observations as part of its deliberations on the Arts Bill.
On a point of information, is it the case that you speak here on behalf of Westmeath County Council as opposed to arts officers across the country?
Yes.
The message at this meeting is that everybody wants more funding for the traditional arts, but there is less of a consensus on how it should be allocated. I will now take questions from Members. I call Deputy Deenihan.
This is a good exercise. I suggested at the committee's first meeting that we arrange to meet all those interested in the Bill. I appreciate that the delegates are perhaps from different sides of the argument, but that they are, nevertheless, sincere in their commitment to the traditional arts.
Would it be possible for those involved or connected with the traditional arts to meet, elect a chairperson and present the committee with ideas that could be incorporated in the Bill? The last thing we need at this stage is division in the area of traditional arts. In the past, people such as the delegates before us were pitted against the Arts Council. With regard to the Bill, it seems they will turn on each other. That is not our fault, but it is what seems to be happening. I appeal to all the interested groups to make an effort, through the Chairman, Deputy Keaveney, or anybody else, to come together and provide a solution.
It is very much a matter of funding. As somebody who spends 25% to 50% of his time - depending on the time of year - on work concerning the arts, I sympathise with everything the delegates have said. There are major questions to be answered and challenges to be met. Before we go into serious deliberation on Committee Stage to amend the Bill and make it better, I hope the various interested parties can come together. Our purpose is the make this Bill better.
Arts Acts were passed in 1951 and 1973 and we will put another in place in 2003. The next legislation dealing with this area may not be introduced for 20 years. The Arts Council has received a fair degree of criticism this morning. In my opinion the committee should have a separate session with it to address all the questions and criticisms - which were harsh and, perhaps, deservedly so - we have heard today. The blame is being put on the Arts Council, but I have not seen any Minister being accused over the years of negligence or discrimination against the traditional arts. I suggest, therefore, that we invite representatives of the Arts Council to come before the committee to outline its position. That would be helpful.
Everyone is very familiar with the arts plan 2002-2006. The Arts Council factored in approximately €53 million for this year and received €44 million, so, in case the delegates are not aware of it, the allocation has already fallen by €7 million. That will not help anybody.
I know Katie Verling was just getting into her contribution but, unfortunately, could not complete it. Hers and the other contributions, if not read, should not be circulated to us but included in the Official Report in the same way a Minister's reply to a question in the Dáil is included in the Official Report if it is not all read out in full.
We are considering that. It is a matter for——
It is one thing circulating presentations to members, but the information should be in the official report of today's proceedings.
Ms Verling's organisation obtains its funding from the local authority, not from the Arts Council.
Ms Verling
We do not, we live in great hope.
If there was a standing committee on the traditional arts, I am sure Ms Verling could apply to it for funding for Glór.
With regard to what Ms Kelly said about local authorities, section 6 of the Bill is rather weak. It says the local authority "shall . . . prepare and implement plans for the development of the arts within its functional area". It does not specify funding or give any guidelines and is very vague. If there was a standing committee for the traditional arts, they would obtain more money through the local authorities. It would strengthen the position of Ms Kelly.
I understand that the county arts initiative came from the Arts Council. Am I correct in stating that Ms Kelly's activities on behalf of the Westmeath arts forum are partly funded by the Arts Council at present?
No.
Ms Kelly is not getting any funding from it?
No, my salary is paid solely by the local authority. We did not get a programming budget from the Arts Council, but it is because this is our first year in existence.
Ms Verling might allude to that when she is responding. In what way does she feel threatened? She is obviously speaking from an overall, rather than her own sectoral, point of view.
Dáithí Ó hÓgáin mentioned the inside track, the outside track and exclusivity and inclusivity. The statements in this regard were fairly sweeping and we have all heard them before. That is why it is so important that the Arts Council should explain itself to the committee in regard to this matter.
Mr. Ó hÓgáin
I fully agree.
The Deputy should ask all his questions and we will let everybody come back——
I will expand on that. I am sure we all have different definitions of culture. It is difficult concept to define and different countries might have varying definitions. Does Mr. Ó hÓgáin think there should be a definition of culture in the Bill?
Garry Shannon is a practitioner and he mentioned that the Arts Council favours for the higher and elite works, the insinuation being that everything else - including traditional arts, which receive only 1% of the overall funding - is excluded. Is that correct? He also made the important point that there should be a certain amount of money, possibly 25%, ring-fenced for the traditional arts sector.
He stated it should be between 15% and 20%.
Between 15% and 20%. That comes from the existing budget. At present, traditional arts receive less than 1% and this will now be increased to 20%. Does that mean other sectors will lose funding they are currently receiving? One should consider this in the context of the Estimates, which are down quite substantially this year? Mr. Shannon might expand on that matter.
Tom Sherlock has a great deal of knowledge in this area because it is his profession and he makes money from it as a promoter, etc. It is important that we listen to what he has to say because he has the traditional arts at heart and is also very much involved in the commercial aspect of this area. He feels threatened by the legislation, particularly section 21, and I would like him to expand more on his concerns. From where do his fears come? If there was more money available for the traditional arts, surely it would benefit him in his activities. He is receiving only a portion of 1%, or perhaps no part of that, at present, but if there was more money available - which was ring-fenced at 15% to 20% - there would be a bigger slice of the cake for him. He could apply to the traditional arts standing committee for funding and it would make recommendations. It would surely give him an opportunity to do that and it would help.
The section on local authority arts is one of the most important of the Bill. Kerry County Council has a thriving arts plan at present, but has only €170,000 to pay the staff and the arts officer, fund the arts officer's support service and run an entire programme throughout the county.
I launched Tralee arts exhibition last week. It is a marvellous exhibition encouraging very young artists to display their work, some of which is sold across the globe. The arts officer receives €100 for back-up. She produces an arts brochure every quarter and does it all for €170,000. It would be of assistance if money for local authorities was ring-fenced in the Bill because additional funding for local authority arts, which are obviously very under-funded at present, could be provided.
There is a proliferation of arts centres, pertaining to both visual and performing arts, throughout the country. There is an explosion of enthusiasm but that needs to be funded and encouraged. The quality mark must be added. That is a major challenge and surely there is an opportunity in the Bill through the possibility of a standing committee on local authority arts.
Does the delegation foresee competing forces, with people on three standing committees? They will look after their own constituencies. Will there be a row every time the Arts Council sits down to decide on who will get funding? Is reducing the Arts Council to eight members and a chairman making the body too small and ruling out regional representation?
Mr. O’Malley
Go raibh maith agaibh go léir as ucht na contributions a thabhairt sibh dúinn. I regret that the emphasis is so much on the traditional arts. My area of interest is the visual arts and the contributions so far did not mention that or the theatre. I hope that is remembered when we deliberate on the arts, when we will be dealing with the area in a comprehensive way.
How far did Ms Verling get and was there much left for her to do?
Ms Verling
I could talk for hours.
Mr. O’Malley
I know that. I wondered if we missed out because I was interested in what Ms Verling was saying.
I was reminded by my colleague, Deputy English, that it is like a rerun of the Nice treaty the way everyone was throwing arguments back and forth about the traditional arts. Mr. Sherlock referred to the same thing as Ms Verling and this appears to amount to a separate Arts Council for the traditional arts. Do proponents of this measure think it is a good idea? It is 30 years since the previous legislation on arts but do people believe it is a good idea to legislate now for 30 years' time, given that this is an evolving area? I would like speakers who spoke in favour of section 21 to reply.
Professor Ó hÓgáin's contribution referred to the idea of exclusion and arts councils throughout the world always have to deal with this - my background includes working in regional arts in England. By its nature making decisions means exclusion. One has to be aware of that and I agree with him that criteria must be transparent.
In many ways the best way to get that from an arts council is to keep it in a single row, so the back and forth between the Minister, the Arts Council and applicants is clear. I would be worried about a system. Everyone is talking about the traditional sector because it has the power to raise funds and runs its own budget, though one wonders why it has that power. To me that contradicts the idea of arts practices evolving together. I note the Arts Council is here and is listening to everyone's contributions about the neglect to date of the traditional arts sector; that is something for it to take into account.
I do not know who can answer this question but where else do the traditional arts get money from for activities and festivals and so on? It is not just the Arts Council. There are a wealth of opportunities, though everyone laments that they are not greater for traditional arts practices, through funding from a variety of State agencies, local authorities and private sources. Some member of the delegation should address the issue of where other funds come from. The budget is shrinking, as has been pointed out, and we are all conscious of that. Funding is not available to the extent it was so we must all work together.
Professor Ó hÓgáin mentioned the innovation committee, which I mentioned when speaking in the Dáil. I do not see traditional practice as separated from innovation and I do not know how one could do so. I do not know how one could see arts practice separated. A definition of culture was used here and while I am not as familiar with the definition used by our Arts Council I know the standard definition is the UNESCO definition. That is almost a given. One's culture does not stop and cannot be placed in aspic. It must evolve. To set up a traditional arts practice standing committee is very patronising; I agree with Ms Verling on that. Different areas must be treated equally, though I can hear people saying they were not treated equally up to now - I can see it in Mr. Shannon's eyes. However, the right way to do this does not involve setting up a committee in isolation. Innovation is a necessary and important part of all practice. The delegation should comment on that.
Regarding Ms Kelly's contribution, I was delighted to hear of local authorities being involved in this and I agree with her that they should be required to do so. I am a member of the local authority in Dún Laoghaire, which has a good arts officer and strong practice, particularly in the visual arts. A lot of good work has been done there with the help of the Arts Council.
I had not thought about arts and health but speakers are right about that. In my contribution I stressed how necessary education is and if the arts are to be part of everyone's life they have to be part of education.
Mr. Shannon made the point that this is our opportunity to build an arts system or scene for the next 30 years and it will not be revisited for 30 years. For that reason alone we need to be careful in setting up carefully defined structures that cannot be changed. The more fluid this is the better.
The Arts Council is due a right of reply but to answer Deputy Deenihan, I suggest we have a meeting on Thursday week. Prior to the Estimates meeting we should invite the Arts Council to address us on this issue.
That is a good point.
Regarding the standing committee, perhaps someone should comment on who should be on such a committee. Funding is part of that, but will the Ballyshannon festival committee get any more money because of that? No matter who is on the committee there will be a certain amount of money but can it be guaranteed that festivals, traditional artists or other branches of the arts will get more money? That is the difficulty in defining arts.
Under the Good Friday Agreement, Ulster Scots was recognised as a traditional background. Will someone comment on that? Are enough standing committees being proposed or are we missing obvious ones, such as music and education? Should there be an evolving committee to deal with specific issues as they come up, given that we may have to wait 30 years before the next Arts Council? Does Deputy O'Shea wish to contribute before we get the general answer?
Deputy Wall, the Labour Party spokesperson on this area, had to attend a meeting of another committee, but he hopes to return. I will make a few brief points in the meantime.
Tom Sherlock's point in regard to thedefinition of traditional art not being contained in the Bill is important. The definition of arts is described as "any creative or interpretative expression (whether traditional or contemporary)". The terms "traditional" and "contemporary" are included but are not defined. I have difficulty with whether it is possible, in absolute terms, to divide one from the other. For example, Riverdance takes something traditional and places it in a modern setting.
I am concerned about division in terms of what is traditional and what is contemporary. As it stands, a decision can be made that something is traditional, that nothing can be added and that what is contemporary comes from this point. I am not sure that is an effective or prudent way to deal with the issue. I would like our guests to express their views on the definition of what is traditional, what is contemporary and where the vision arises, because I do not have answers to that question.
One of the issues I found somewhat disturbing in the contributions this morning was that there seems to be some conflict in terms of the recollection of what happened during the consultative process. It is important for Members that this be clearly defined.
In terms of the correspondence members have received heretofore, there is the specific issue of the recommendations the standing committee on the traditional arts would make. These are basically presented in terms of recommendations. Does this mean they will be forwarded to the council, with which responsibility for the final decisions, whatever they may be, will rest? In other words, the standing committee would not make decisions. In that sense, to call it a traditional arts council in terms of it having full autonomy for the funding available to it may be going a step too far.
The other point I wish to make is that in the representations we received and this morning's presentations, the emphasis, in terms of the traditional arts, seems to be largely on music, whereas we need only look at the definition of the arts contained in the Bill to see that this matter goes a long way beyond that. I suppose it all boils down to the fact that the representatives across the table feel the sector should be better funded. The divisions seem to stem from the mechanisms of how that can be achieved.
I apologise for being late, but I had to attend another committee meeting. The proposal to invite members of the Arts Council to address the meeting is welcome and this should be done as soon as possible.
The construction of the new arts council will mean a reduction in numbers from 18 to nine. I would like to hear the representatives' views in this regard. Given that the Minister and the Arts Council appoint all the relevant committees, how do the representatives see their areas in relation to the overview they put to the committee and the proposals they put to the Minister? What line of accession do they see in regard to their respective areas and the Arts Council?
We would like to see a ring-fencing of funding in regard to the traditional arts. Given the title of the committee, I am sure people will see its value vis-à-vis the number of submissions received in relation to the different fleadhs and traditional festivals throughout the country, which are of benefit to the tourism industry. The arts and tourism aspect is very much interlinked with the development of this section of the Department.
I hope we can reach a consensus. I would not like to see a Bill being brought before the House which is so divisive as to create a schism in regard to the arts. Perhaps we can have further meetings to tease out the two viewpoints.
Other speakers referred to the amount of literature - some of it signed and some not - we received. This is all important literature in trying to put the perspectives of the different groups. We would want to see synchronisation of the overview because the Bill will endeavour to advance the traditional arts throughout the country. The legislation should not create divisions in an area which is of major benefit, not just to the advancement of traditional Irish music and all that flows from it, but in relation to fleadhs and festivals, which are of major benefit to the young people and to the country. It is important for young people to have a discipline such as being able to play musical instruments, sing or dance. It is a marvellous achievement and something people will have for the rest of their days. It is important that we establish the fund with the blessing of the various interested groups. It is great to see the local authority representative, Catherine Kelly, present because all local authorities want to ensure the advancement of the arts in their areas through schools, etc.
I look forward to the development of the proposals. Deputy Deenihan proposed that the need for a conciliation period could be advanced. Perhaps this aspect could be considered to see what mechanism might be put in place to deal with the issue, otherwise the committee should advance the mechanism to try to obtain an overview that will be advantageous to and meet with the agreement of everyone involved.
We are concerned with ensuring the advancement of the traditional arts. I want to emphasise that the Labour Party will work towards ensuring there is no divisiveness between any of the groups as a result of the legislation.
I thank the representatives for their contributions because they give us the opportunity to get the legislation right. Given what was said this morning, it appears that people felt isolated because they were not getting a fair share of the funding. I welcome the three representatives from my county, Clare. These people all play a part in preserving our ancient Irish culture. There must be a fair and equitable system of distributing funds, etc. It is stated in the presentation that six regulars have been funded by the Arts Council in the past. While Irish traditional music received 1%, Glór - even though it provides a marvellous opportunity for the people of Clare and surrounding areas to promote our culture - received nothing.
I agree with Deputy Deenihan that if we have a united front, everyone will get something from the Bill. Everyone should be happy and there should be no division when this process is complete. I am working towards that and I agree with Deputy Deenihan that there should be a compromise so that we approach this Bill as one and obtain a fair share in order to promote our ancient Irish culture.
I ask Members to bear in mind that another group is due to appear before us and that there is a vote at 1.30 p.m. I want to give everybody a chance to respond. I will start at the bottom and work to the top, so Ms Kelly may begin.
Deputy Deenihan mentioned the standing committees and I am concerned about political intervention with regard to them. There should not be political control or political nominations within the committees. That would not be representative of the arts and that was one of the main concerns of the members of the Westmeath arts forum. It would be great if we could work with a standing committee through the Arts Council, but there were concerns that tensions would arise between committee and council. That would be even more detrimental. A standing committee that could work effectively with the council without political nominations might work, but the main concern revolved around the local authorities and the committees.
I was asked what is my difficulty with the standing committees. There is no guarantee or provision in the Bill that one extra cent will be given to the traditional arts. This is not a cure-all. My other concern is that, as Deputy O'Malley stated, legislative change is too restrictive. In light of recent experience, the legislation is likely to govern this area for 25 to 30 years. To isolate the traditional arts is regressive and demeaning towards the art form. Why single traditional music out in this regard?
There are fears behind this. Why should there be funding powers for the traditional arts only, when there is no provision in the Bill for the other two standing committees to have any funding powers. I ask the committee to address that and to agree that this is a far too restrictive a way to approach the matter.
We are united in that we want, and would welcome, more money for our art forms. However, given the amount of media interest this debate has generated and the positive proposals under the arts plan, there is a new climate abroad. The Arts Council should take on board the views of the sector that have been amplified here. I hope the council will address funding needs but that it will not do so by establishing a standing committee with funding powers. Why do the committees on innovation or local authorities not have powers? It has been stated, in plain terms, that this is the only show in town. Do the others matter?
I meant funding recommendations.
At my meeting with the Minister last week, he said he knew what I was talking about. If the standing committee is put in place it will control funding for traditional music. There is great disquiet among the majority of people in the traditional music sector about the motivation behind this and the fact that the other committees are not to be granted the privilege of providing funding.
Mr. Ó Raghallaigh
I will address Deputy O'Malley's question about what other funding the festivals have received. The festival I run receives €300,000 from the local authority. I believe that the grant to Clare County Council was between €78,000 and €80,000 last year. The arts officer in Clare does a great job distributing that fairly.
The other potential sources of funding include a Bord Fáilte grant, but that is aimed at festivals that have been in existence for some time. Such festivals would have to show that all funding goes towards international marketing, whereas many of the festivals we represent do not have budgets for that. They are essentially local or national festivals promoting employment for local musicians and others who would be employed for the weekend. That grant usually only applies to larger and more exclusive festivals. There is also money available from Bord na Gaeilge, but many traditional arts festivals do not involve the Irish language.
The main grant available from the Arts Council for festivals stipulates that they must be multidisciplinary festivals. We take issue with this. Why should a traditional festival have to have a fine art exhibition in order to apply for funding? Such an imposition would not be put on the Wexford opera festival so that Martin Hayes would have to play a concert there. It is restrictive in its definition.
It may sound as if we are ravenous for money, but we accept that the demand for grants will always be greater than the supply thereof. I admit that an increase in funding for traditional arts will encroach on other art forms, but the time of traditional arts has come. They deserve their bite of the cherry. Considering the number of people playing traditional music in County Clare, to have just 1% of funding is laughable. An Arts Council officer attempted to justify the funding given to the traditional sector in an article in The Irish Times on Tuesday last by saying that Ceoltas Ceoltoíri Éireann receives approximately €500,000 in capital grants from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. The background to these grants means nothing to me, but Ceoltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is only one body within the traditional music sector. That an arts officer was trying to justify the poor level of funding to the traditional arts sector by saying that Ceoltas Ceoltoíri Éireann receives money shows that despite the arts plan for 2002-2006, that culture is ingrained. Things will not change without some change to the structure to shake up the council.
If section 21 of the Bill is removed and a traditional arts council not put in place, the situation can return to a point where traditional music will be looked after in a progressive fashion which should have been the case previously. Traditional music is an art form and greater attention should not have to be stipulated. If the council had been doing its job for the past 51 years, there would be no need to highlight it now or for the council to claim that it will act. I reject the suggestion that it will happen without a change of structure.
Mr. Shannon
As a Clare person, I note that Deputies Deenihan and Breen referred to Glór and I wish Ms Verling the very best in seeking funding from the Arts Council. I consider Glór a perfect candidate and expect it to be one of the biggest Arts Council clients next year.
Ms Verling
I thank Mr. Shannon.
Mr. Shannon
Deputy Deenihan mentioned the Arts Council, the remit of which is to promote, protect and raise awareness of the arts. The Arts Council does not officially exclude the traditional arts, but I refer Deputies to the quote I used earlier from the minutes of a meeting of the Arts Council some years ago " . . . an arts council must cater primarily for the higher and elite works." Another quote was: "Irish Dancing--"
From where do those quotes come?
Mr. Shannon
They are from The Creative Imperative, which was published by the Arts Council in 1999. Another quote is “Irish Dancing, by which is meant step-dancing and general dancing such as takes place at ceilidhes, does not come within the terms of the Arts Act, 1951, and . . . Ballet does come within the terms of the said Act.” Deputy Deenihan said I implied that the Arts Council excludes the traditional arts. However, the quote says that the council caters primarily for the higher and elite works.
Regarding our request for 20% of the Arts Council budget to be ring-fenced, Deputy Deenihan wondered where the 20% would come from. If the Book of Estimates is not revised it will inevitably result in compromise. The other genres would have to compromise, and rightly so. Deputy O'Malley contended that the provision of a standing committee for the traditional arts is really the arts council in another guise. The Arts Council will still be the governing body and a standing committee is needed because it provides at last an opportunity of forming solid, detailed strategies for the promotion and protection of the native arts. This has been sorely lacking up to now.
Deputy O'Shea and Mr. Sherlock referred to the consultative process. Mr. Sherlock referred to the weekend meeting in Dún Laoghaire which resulted in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, Succeeding Better, according to which the structures required for the effective and efficient application of resources could be put in place by restructuring and resourcing the Arts Council or by setting up a new developmental body to cater specifically to the needs of the Irish traditional arts. However, that was just one wing of the consultative process, which began two years ago. The then Minister, Deputy de Valera, received 233 submissions from people across the spectrum of the arts. I have read all the summaries and was intrigued by the different shades of opinion on myriad issues. To seek to discredit the hard work of so many diminishes those who make the suggestion in the first place.
It is unfortunate that one would stoop so far to subvert the democratic process. The Bill is a product of that consultative process. We note that those who now oppose the Bill took a full and active part in that consultative process, thereby confirming their belief in its bona fides. It is unfortunate that they now try to discredit it just because they do not like the result.
Mr. Ó hÓgáin
I thank the Members for their wise comments, most of which I actually agree with. I feel like a jockey who has brought his horse to the races and is told he cannot put the saddle on before the race begins. What I had to say was condensed into ten minutes and I did not get across many of my points. My script answers most of the questions as they were addressed to me. The three committees are necessary in the context of advancement and change. They are essential because of past neglect. That is the reason these committees are required.
I never asked for any funding nor received any from the Arts Council and I am not requesting funding now. What I am asking for is a proper understanding of culture because I am worried about the future social and economic condition and health of the people. Culture involves everybody. As a folklorist and a creative writer, I believe in the validity of each individual's identity. We should remember that alienation in society causes ill-health. I spoke of innovation in my speech and in fact I insisted on a script to make a statement which answers Deputy O'Malley's comment. Innovation can mean acceptance of other styles besides those currently deemed to be fashionable and it can also mean an open attitude to development of new and unprecedented art forms in the future. I insist, as a folklorist and a writer, that the spirit of innovation always be an essential ingredient of creativity. There is no human culture without innovation. It is because the Arts Council has been so woolly and subjectivist and suffered from silly, snobbish, straitjacketed thinking that innovation needs to be discussed, even if these committees do not fulfil the functions envisaged. They ought to provide a forum for the discussion of these important issues.
I see these committees as being responsible for coming up with definitions. For example, Deputy O'Shea mentioned the concepts of modern and commercial work. I do not see modern as being synonymous with commercial. We must be careful about that. We cannot distinguish traditional culture from modern commercial culture, because those of us who are not blinded by temporary commercial dreams but believe in equality and human rights for all believe that commercialism is not the only way to fulfil the needs of humanity. Therefore, in modern society, in the future and as long as there are people, the commercial element is only one way of bringing about human happiness. There are many other elements too, so that modern should not be equated with commercial.
With regard to the number of members, there is a question of probity or transparency because of what I consider to be the great abuses committed by the Arts Council in the past. We need very strict democratic accountability and I would be in favour of whatever mechanism can be devised to achieve that.
The question of Ulster Scots in terms of languages and dialects is mentioned specifically in the UNESCO recommendations. People should read the UNESCO policy on traditional culture because the Government recommended it to the world bodies and has never implemented it. We need to incorporate the UNESCO policy into cultural planning in the future. I passionately believe that every person has cultural validity in his or her life. We are not talking about people being put on stages, but about the enrichment of the lives of all our fellow citizens and the equality of all those citizens in terms of applying for whatever benefits or supports are available. If we are doing good work we should be able to apply for these on a level playing pitch. As a young writer, I was often advised to get to know somebody in the Arts Council as it would be a great help to me. We need to put an end to that, once and for all.
I suggest that Mr. Ó hÓgáin's horse is very well saddled at the moment.
Ms Verling
I feel I have been a good girl for a long time because I have been bursting to respond to many of the points raised. The Deputies may watch me now as I lose my Arts Council funding opportunities.
One of the reasons we are here is that we have a deep sense of frustration with the past and the absence of proper funding for traditional arts. What is good about the Bill - this is where I lose my funding - is that it puts the Arts Council into a democratic system that is entirely accountable. In the past, the relationship between the Department and the council was very much of the hands-off variety. If I was really distressed or annoyed I could do nothing about it. To whom could I whinge? Nobody. During this process, most of us have been able to talk to the Minister and we have had an opportunity to speak to the committee. We are using the democratic process properly.
The aim of the Bill is to create a strong relationship, in terms of consultation, with the sector and to develop an arts policy which is endorsed by the Department and the Minister before it is put into effect. Such a system is streamlined and transparent and provides for accountability, which is why the Bill is excellent. It has been introduced because of the level of frustration engendered by the hands-off relationship.
If the system is so good, why should things be put into it that hamper its workings? The criteria for standing committees are unclear and the question as to what local authorities, innovation and traditional arts have in common has been asked. Why are education and health not included? As Deputy Deenihan asked me, to whom does Glór apply for money? Under the Bill, I can apply to everybody and get money from no one. I could apply to the standing committee on innovation and be told, essentially, to "shag off", I could approach the standing committee on local authorities and be asked what is wrong with us given that we are getting loans from Clare already or I could go to the committee on traditional arts which might not like our definition of "traditional arts" and consider us far too innovative. I might then return to the Arts Council and begin the process all over again, eventually ending up at the Minister's door crying my eyes out and still without funding, but being told I am doing a fantastic job.
The practical problem with the Bill is that a simple system has been created, but a monster has been put in the middle of it which is driving everyone demented. There is a temporary, but major problem in the area of traditional arts which has been underfunded. The level of debate that has occurred in the media and among ourselves in the consultation processes has raised the level of awareness of traditional arts and this leads me to believe that the problems can be solved quite quickly. Why put a standing committee in place that will be there for 30 years? We will not need it even in three years time when we will all be much better friends, when I will be spending lots of money on musicians like Garry Shannon and Pádraig Ó Raghallaigh and when we will be delighted with ourselves.
In terms of standing committees, it is a good idea to create a flexible rather than a rigid structure. If the criteria for their establishment are being reviewed in the legislative process, we should ensure that they are given equal powers. Why give the standing committee on traditional arts, but not the committee on local authorities, funding recommendation powers? Local authorities have lashings of money, but they will have no funding recommendation powers under this structure. They could be given the option to opt out or change powers and the whole thing could be tied into the democratic system, which would ultimately make them accountable to the Minister.
I am not sure that local authorities have lashings of money. Any arts sector, not just that relating to traditional arts, will have problems with funding. I sincerely thank the people who have come before us. I realise their time is precious, but this was an extremely useful exercise and we will definitely take on board the points that were made. The submissions will definitely colour our approach to the Bill.
What about the idea of the groups coming together to advise us on a proper direction for the future? Is it a good idea to initiate a consultative process among the various interests in traditional arts?
They should have a cup of coffee upstairs after this meeting.
Perhaps Mr. Ó hÓgain would like to respond.
Mr. Ó hÓgain
I have no material interest in this business. I have existed up to now independently of the Arts Council and I hope to continue to do so. I am delighted to give help to anybody at any time in terms of a consultation process.
Mr. Shannon
Dialogue is always productive.
There is a mechanism the Minister could implement by forming a committee to represent all views and all sectors involved in this area. It should be made as wide-ranging as possible. The committee should report to the Arts Council to examine what are the traditional arts - which is a vexed question - and recommend the appropriate level of funding for traditional music or arts. That would be a way to establish consensus in a wide sector.
I hope this is not the only opportunity we get to talk to people within the sector. The role of this committee should be to consult with those working at the coalface in sport, the arts, tourism, rural development and Gaeltacht and community affairs. I thank everybody once more and ask that the next group be brought in.
The witnesses withdrew.
We are into phase two of a very interesting morning. As many, if not all, of the people involved in this part of the meeting were present for the initial discussion, members will not have to reiterate points and perhaps they will be succinct when asking questions. Those making presentations will have five minutes to do so. Time can be shared, as appropriate. There is a vote in the Dáil at 1.30 p.m., which might affect how we proceed. When the time comes we can take a decision to either continue later or call a halt to proceedings. I welcome our new guests and I ask them to introduce themselves. I hope this session will be as informative as the first.
Mr. Carolan
My name is Nicholas Carolan. I am the director of the Irish Traditional Music Archive and I represent the views of the board. I have already circulated a single page summary of the archives' views, which I recommend to all Members.
The traditional music archive is a national institution that collects the materials of Irish traditional music - sound recordings, videos, books and sheet music - which it makes available to the general public without charge. This resource is used every year by thousands of people. It is involved in collecting in the field, publishing and mounting exhibitions. It is also involved in broadcasting and providing public lectures. Its remit covers the island of Ireland, areas of Irish settlement abroad and other performers of this music worldwide.
I am from Drogheda, County Louth, and am a member of a family that has been involved in traditional music for several generations in counties Meath and Louth. Like thousands of others, I sing, play and dance a little. I worked as a teacher for about 20 years. I was assistant principal in a north Dublin secondary school. The school had 1,000 children and no music on the curriculum. Simultaneously, I lectured in Trinity College on Irish traditional music and I have done a great deal of broadcasting. Essentially, I see the world from the viewpoint of an educationalist.
Since its foundation, the archive has been a client of the Arts Council and applies to it annually for funding. Its annual grant has increased from £20,000 in 1987 to €300,000 in the current year. For over ten years the archive has also been an annually funded client of the Arts Council of Northern Ireland. It, therefore, has a long experience of public funding of the arts and has been enabled to achieve its present success largely through State funding.
The Arts Council, which is the Government's agency for funding and developing the arts, must devote an appropriate part of its expenditure to supporting traditional music. There must be a fair and open application procedure to the Arts Council for State funds for all individuals and organisations involved in all art forms. The Arts Council's expenditure on traditional music does not reflect the practice of this music in the present, nor does it reflect the national importance of traditional music. There is a real problem here that is already clear from the committee's earlier deliberations.
From the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s, a period of financial stringency, 2% of the Arts Council's budget was invested in the traditional arts. In the mid-1990s, this dropped to less than 1%. That speaks for itself. While the procedure has been fair, open and transparent, problems have arisen in terms of the culture of successive Arts Councils. We now have experience of three Arts Councils. The culture and formation of the individuals who make up the councils does not give them an understanding of the nature or the needs of traditional music. The problem is cultural. The people involved are not malicious, they are acting voluntarily and come from all parts of the country.
That brings us to the Arts Bill and, in particular, the standing committee referred to in section 21. Such a committee will not be the solution to the problem because it goes against the flow of public consultation. It is divisive in the arts and, more so, divisive in Irish traditional music. It will lead to Arts Councils that are paralysed and even poisoned in the future. As separate arts councils added on to the real Arts Council, the committees will either clash or try to corner money from the same source. The concept is a recipe for disaster.
We have two other lesser difficulties with the Bill. While it defines the arts, the Bill does not define the traditional arts. That appears to be a draftsman's error. More importantly, we find it wrong that the traditional arts are defined as being in some way different from the contemporary arts. That is just not correct. I need not add anything to what has already been said on this subject.
The Bill should reflect reality. Section 21 should be dropped and article 3 should be combined with article 22 to address the problem. We have already said this to the Minister. Article 3 allows the Minister of the day to add to the functions of the Arts Council. We have recommended to the Minister that he should tackle the problem of an appropriate level of funding for the traditional arts and use the mechanism enabled in section 22 to allow the Arts Council to set up a wide-ranging, broadly-based committee to examine the question and make recommendations as to what is an appropriate level of funding for the traditional arts.
I thank the Chairman, Deputies and colleagues in traditional music. My name is Terry Moylan and I am an archivist in Na Píobairí Uilleann, which is the uilleann pipers' society. We have approximately 3,000 members who are all, by definition, uilleann pipers. We are spread throughout the world, with the bulk of our membership based in Ireland.
We debated the Bill at our committee meetings in the past few months and have come to the conclusion that section 21 will be completely damaging to the future of traditional music in Ireland. In a certain sense, traditional music does not need any funding at all. If I go to a hostelry on a Monday night I do not need to be paid by the Arts Council to dance a set. If I feel like opening my mouth to sing in the same place, I do not need a grant from the Arts Council to do so. That is not what the Arts Council should be thinking about.
There is another sense in which traditional music does need funding. As a member of the pipers' club, I am aware that if somebody wants to take up the uilleann pipes he or she will have to come up with a sum of €5,000 to €6,000 and wait 12 to 14 years to obtain a set. I can envisage circumstances in which the Arts Council would fund some kind of scientific study into the construction of the pipes and perhaps invest in an apprenticeship scheme in Bolton Street aimed at training pipe makers. That would be a real way of supporting traditional music. However, it is not the type of thing that is concentrating the minds of many of the contributors to this meeting.
There has been a great deal of discussion about festivals, etc. Festivals are not the be-all and end-all of traditional music. When somebody meets a friend, or group of friends, in any location and they feel like creating traditional music, then traditional music comes alive at that point. It does not need any other kind of superstructure in order to keep it alive. It does, however, need the provision of support for resources in traditional music. All the collections that have gone before need to be unearthed and made available. Collections that exist in very inaccessible places and instruments need to be made available. The public needs to be made aware of this treasure. Children need to grow up knowing they have this treasure and not be solely exposed to popular Anglo-American music.
What has this got to do with the Bill? The Bill tries to tackle this in an upside-down kind of way. Irish traditional music is a pyramid. Authority rests at the bottom, not at the top. Traditional music is what the broad mass of its practitioners say it is. Somebody at the top may have a broad overview of it, but they do not know everything. That information is vested in its practitioners and only in them.
The Bill tries to create a structure whereby only two experts, with three other members of the Arts Council, will make policy for the future. This is totally wrong. This is compounded by giving it funding, which effectively takes the decision away from the rest of the council, other members of which might have expertise in this area but are automatically excluded. The problem is compounded further by making it a statutorily based instrument. Therefore, if it is a disaster, as I believe it will, it will be a disaster for the next 30 years. It is a poisoned chalice for every Minister and every Arts Council to inherit in their time.
I agree with Mr. Carolan that the way to remedy the perceived and obvious defect in successive Arts Councils is by presenting the new council with an obligation to address the question of how the Government can address the real and best interests of Irish traditional music through its ordinary structures. To do this it would have to consult every body and individual with an input into this world of music. If it did this, it would have the confidence of the world of traditional music and we could proceed from there. Creating a statutorily based structure will not get us an extra cent, as has been said, but making the council aware of the issues is the way to begin.
Mr. McAllister
I am chairman of the largest branch of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, the Cluain Tarbh branch. I am also project director of the CLASAC project, a new €4 million centre being spearheaded by Cluain Tarbh for the promotion and performance of the traditional arts in Dublin.
I want the committee to trust me. The Arts Council and its clients are saying, "Trust us, we have not done right by you in the past, but we will in the future." People think that music is confined to the west, but we are in the Clontarf area of Dublin. Next year we will have been established for 40 years. We have almost 250 children between the ages of six and 18 years playing traditional music and 25 teachers. We also have bands and groups, with 20 musicians per group, which on a Saturday night involve about 120 people. A total of 25 volunteers look after this.
It was annoying to sit here and listen to some of the things that were said. The members of our branch welcome the new Arts Bill, particularly the provision relating to the traditional arts. It will have a profound and positive effect on the traditional arts when enacted. This is because fundamental change was proven to be necessary because the support arrangements for the traditional arts at national and local level were totally insufficient. There was an absence of any coherent national policy, a lack of funding, and a complete absence of trust between the Arts Council and many of those involved in the traditional arts world, including CCE, the largest stakeholder. This matter is about whom one represents, not vested interests, single bodies or boards of management.
In our submission to the review we recommended that the Minister and the Department take the lead role in setting new national policies for the development of the traditional arts. Policies would then inform the drawing up and implementation of an action plan and the allocation of funding. Public accountability, transparency and policy debate would be underpinned by Oireachtas scrutiny. That is very important because at present there is no scrutiny of what takes place. We are glad to see this matter being addressed in the Bill.
The main opposition to the Bill today is focused on the proposals for the traditional arts sub-committee. Despite what is being suggested by those against the Bill, the proposal for the sub-committee is a logical result of the wide and comprehensive consultative report.
It is important to recognise that, since its initiation over two years ago, the review has travelled a long way and has set the record straight on a number of matters. Everybody agrees that change is necessary. Everybody also agrees that the level of Arts Council funding allocated to the traditional arts, at 0.9%, is inadequate. Then we have discrepancies and people asked what was the real case. Theo Dorgan, PricewaterhouseCoopers, the Minister and his Department all said change was necessary, yet we are being asked today not to change anything and to trust the Arts Council to look after people in the future.
One might ask why we have so little faith in the Arts Council. I will give an example that is not theoretical but real. We are spearheading the development of the CLASAC project in Dublin to bring the traditional arts to a wide community audience, a development supported by all local politicians and Dublin City Council. We met representatives of the Arts Council and explained the CLASAC project, not just alluding to the building of the centre, but also to the teaching programme, music outreach to schools and the inner city community, and the promotion of a Dublin traditional folk music and dance festival, with many other plans.
We inquired about capital funding in the general discussion and how they might assist us. We were informed that, as we were not in receipt of revenue funding, we would not be considered for capital funding. We then asked the obvious question: How do we receive revenue funding? The answer took about ten minutes and I will not bore members, but the bottom line was that we did not fit into any of the categories of the Arts Council for revenue funding. The largest community-driven traditional music project in Dublin in ten years did not fit into a category.
If the promoters of Riverdance had gone to the Arts Council, it probably would not have fitted into a category either. If there had not been a commercial proposition, Riverdance would not have happened because it did not fit into the Arts Council structure. The people one is talking to are looking at the arts in general. We are saying one needs to look at them specifically. Deputy Deenihan will remember his very helpful seminar in the Dublin Writers Museum where a representative of the new Helix Centre recounted how she had spent over five months trying to get an interview with an officer of the Arts Council. The meeting never took place.
We start off on a Saturday morning at 8.30 a.m. and finish at 12 p.m. We go back again at 5.30 p.m. and finish at 8.15 p.m. It is all voluntary. The voluntary sector is being squeezed so much that the bottom-up approach, which has worked for 50 years, will be squeezed to death if a structure is not put in place by those who understand what we do as practitioners, teachers and individuals who make sure the tradition is kept alive.
While I listen to all types of music, from classical to pop to music of the 1960s, I would not claim that I listen to pop music from the 1990s. I paint a little and do a lot of things very, very badly, but all art forms should be encouraged. If classical music was never taught again in Ireland, would the rest of the world notice? If jazz or ballet became extinct in Ireland tomorrow morning, would the rest of the world notice? If the flugel horn was never blown again in the National Concert Hall, would the rest of the world notice? It would not. However, if traditional Irish music was not played again, the whole world would notice because we do it better than anyone else in the world. It is ours. If we do not look after it for the next 50 years by funding and structuring it properly and giving it a proper position within the whole arts sector, we will be doing it a disservice and this committee will be doing it a dreadful disservice. The setting up of the standing committee is only giving us what we feel we genuinely deserve.
Mr. Deaton
I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to address it today. I am speaking on behalf of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, of which I am a member. I am also an architect and have a wide interest in the arts, including the visual arts and music - traditional, opera and jazz. I have quite catholic tastes in that regard.
Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann has made the tradition accessible to me and my family. I was not born in County Clare or the west and have no traditional music background. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is the national and international movement for Irish traditional music, song and dance. We have 35,000 members in 400 branches on four continents. We have 40 branches in the United Kingdom and 50 in America. With 450 members, the branch in Budapest is currently one of our largest abroad, although one could count the number who speak English on the fingers of one hand. Comhaltas is actively involved in the spreading of Irish music, song and dance, both at home and abroad. Despite what some might think, it is not a single, hierarchical body, rather it is an organisation built from the bottom up comprising individuals and branches rooted in local communities where the promotion of the traditional arts is our first priority.
We compliment the Minister on having undertaken such a comprehensive and democratic public consultation process that has led to the publication of the new Arts Bill. Written submissions were summarised in the Dorgan report which was followed by a weekend conference facilitated by PricewaterhouseCoopers.
As a major stakeholder in the traditional arts, Comhaltas contributed to the consultation process. The committee will know that it suggested the formation of an independent traditional arts council, separate from the Arts Council, and we make no apology for advancing this wherever consultation has taken place. We acknowledge the Minister's proposal is a compromise to deal with the concerns of the various disparate groups which contributed to the consultation process. Although the standing committee was not our first choice, we now welcome it in the interests of building consensus and as a real improvement on the status quo. To be fair to those who oppose it, they accept there are difficulties with funding and satisfaction with and trust in the Arts Council vis-à-vis the traditional arts.
Why is the traditional arts community, both inside and without Comhaltas, unhappy with the Arts Council? The Dorgan report states there is a need to enhance support structures for the traditional arts and assure them of equal status with other arts forms. This is a widely held view. The council's reaction to this can be read in its article in The Irish Times yesterday which states it has provided adequate funding and Comhaltas will not get any more.
The PricewaterhouseCoopers report on the Dún Laoghaire conference, which I attended, states:
. . . the structures required for the effective and efficient application of these resources [necessary for traditional song and dance] could be put in place in either of the following ways: the Arts Council appropriately restructured and resourced; or set up a new development body to cater specifically for the needs of Irish traditional arts.
The Minister has chosen the first option on which we support him.
Comhaltas stands by this Bill as it makes direct reference to the Irish traditional arts for the first time. We have great hopes for the standing committee and hope to meet all interested groups. We do not see that the committee should be dominated by any party. That would be unthinkable and something we would not want.
Comhaltas is developing outreach programmes, educational initiatives, cultural links with other movements and ethnic traditions, traditional arts resource centres throughout the country, new promotional and media ventures, cross-Border initiatives and Irish language projects. We need a forum where we can develop these and know we can develop policies with the other stakeholders in the traditional arts.
It has been suggested that the Minister should task the Arts Council with an examination of traditional music and support its proper funding. The Government will publish the national spatial strategy today. This is our national spatial strategy; our place in the arts. If we do not get this, what chance do the traditional arts have of winning a vote in the Arts Council when, as Nicholas Carolan has pointed out, the vast majority of members have a culture and attitude not sympathetic to traditional music?
Ms Brady
I was born into Comhaltas. As a small child, I remember my parents sorting out papers and counting money from local events while on their knees on the floor. That is my memory of growing up in a Comhaltas family. My father is a very well recognised composer within Comhaltas and a member of IMRO. He has his music played all over Ireland and Europe and had recordings produced all over the world.
Comhaltas has had a problem in that it has never received any statutory funding or help to aid us in our local work. I teach in the Sacred Heart school in Tullamore in which there are 650 girls. I am the first teacher to have brought traditional music into the school which I teach on a voluntary basis before lessons on Wednesdays. Tonight I will collect my students and bring them to another school to create an inter-school link with a traditional group there for which we will receive no recognition or funding. It shows our school in a good light and a good community spirit.
Comhaltas is justifiably proud of its achievements since 1951, ironically the year of the first Arts Act. As Mr. Moylan said, no superstructure is needed to keep traditional music live. Were it not for the structure of Comhaltas, however, we would not have a tradition. We have saved our music from near certain death and made it secure for future generations. This would not have been possible were it not for the voluntary work of the thousands of lovers and supporters of our native culture, both in Ireland and the diaspora.
I have identified some of the shortcomings within our structure. Mr. Moylan spoke about people going into hostelries and singing songs. These children are not going into hostelries to receive grants to sing songs, they are going in to learn their traditions and culture which is what they want to do.
As well as a lack of venues, we also have too many students for the available number of teachers. Demand is outstripping supply. I also draw Members attention to the cost of purchasing instruments. Two years ago, we carried out a survey of leaving certificate students in Tullamore to discover what level of interest there is in the traditions. Why have less than half the leaving certificate population ever attended a class? We must do something about that. We are discussing a culture that is better than any other in the world.
Except for the last two years, when Offaly County Council appointed an arts officer, we have not had funding. I know Deputy Keaveney comes from a rural area and will examine this matter carefully. Rural areas receive little support, so we work in a vacuum on a local basis. Some 89% of the leaving certificate students surveyed deemed Irish traditional music, singing and dancing to be very important to Ireland's cultural future. I question what Mr. Sherlock said earlier about the disquiet among the community. I do not count 80% to 90% of leaving certificate students in a provincial gateway town as a minority.
We have a unique opportunity to fix the problems and mistakes that may have unwittingly threatened our native culture. For many years traditional music, singing and dancing were the responsibility of local volunteer workers. If it was not for the foresight of these people, we might not have had the excellence of the cultural heritage with which we are now blessed. With this new Arts Bill, we have a great opportunity to correct the mistakes of generations who may have unwittingly worked to the detriment of our culture. A PricewaterhouseCoopers report stated that "we must preserve the deep heritage and social capital inherent in all the Irish traditional art forms".
Mr. Mac Mathúna
I am Séamus Mac Mathúna from Gower, Cooraclare in west Clare. I am 63 years of age and since my childhood I have loved and felt enthusiastic about Irish traditional music, song, dance and associated traditions such as stories, folklore etc. I have always believed these were very important.
We recently looked through the minutes of the first meeting of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann on 14 October 1951. The primary aim set out at that meeting was to establish a group of people with qualifications so they might teach traditional music to the upcoming generation. As a young person aged 18, 19 and 20, I attended the early fleadhs and I was aware that it was mostly mature people such as Paddy Canny, Paddy Murphy and Denis Murphy and, in Donegal, John Doherty who were involved.
The enthusiasm in the first few years went towards getting people to come out and enjoy the experience. Irish traditional music was not particularly acceptable at that stage. When one went into Ennis and used a flute or whistle, one was more or less told to go back to the bog. I found this attitude - which we set out to immediately correct - was quite prevalent among people who would regard themselves as sophisticated and it only changed gradually. It was well into the 1960s before we began teaching traditional music. Looking back over 50 years, it was the mid-1970s before people began to realise that it was not just mature and middle-aged people who were playing, but that there was a whole new generation involved.
It was the case that a fairy godmother waved her wand and things changed. What happened was that branches of Comhaltas in villages, towns and cities, which realised perhaps that they had only a fiddler and two whistlers, got together to decide what to do. They soon came up with the approach of persuading the fiddler or one of the whistler players to teach some children a few tunes. This was no miracle and it did not, with respect, happen at festivals or summer schools. It happened because a few people, often in miserably cold weather in which one could catch pneumonia, got together for two hours each week in old school houses. This meant that parents and local communities had to be encouraged to come together.
We talked about Clontarf, a brilliant branch which has turned out three or four generations of players. However, it was not all limelight because parents had to be persuaded to try to obtain instruments for and musicians to teach their children. That work went on through the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. It became obvious in the 1970s that something strange was happening because a whole generation of young people were playing the music. People younger than me will be unaware of all that work and devotion, but it did happen and without help from anybody.
At a meeting with the Arts Council in the 1970s, I became aware of a feeling of alienation and antagonism and a sense that they thought that it was not worth bothering about. I have gone on stage and introduced a particular version of "Mo Róisín Dubh", written in 1610 or 1615, as a song. One informs Americans about these things and they listen. Last year I went on stage at Listowel - I have done so at many venues across the globe - and sang "The Boys of Barr na Sráide". People always come up to me and say there is something special about the song. People who have devoted themselves to this music feel the same way.
As a poet once wrote, "Níl an bochtanas an rud is measa" or "Poverty is not the worst thing but the insult that goes with it." In common with many people, I have felt that sense of alienation. Thank God, we have fought those battles and few people will say they are not aware of Irish traditional music. The likes of Paddy Murphy of Kilmary passed on the music to the likes of Noel Hill who is a world class artist.
All of that to which I refer came from devoted teaching and concern and a willingness to burn the midnight oil. In our rapidly changing world, we cannot expect the same level of commitment and idealism. However, the same spirit would emerge if funding and support, particularly in the context of the arts, were provided. In the 1970s and 1980s I and fellows like me were a lot younger and we wanted to change the world - or certainly Ireland - but we never had the money to do so. Even then we were aware that money was being spent far and wide on other things. I am not saying Irish music is better than anything else, but I am hanged if it is not just as good.
We are expecting a vote in the Dáil at 1.30 p.m for which I do not know whether the Opposition can be blamed. The question is whether we should adjourn and return in 15 minutes for a short question and answer session or continue with a few questions now and see how we get on.
We will ask a few questions now. I also asked this of the previous representatives, but would there be an opportunity for the disparate groups being described to come together to try to give us the solution to this problem in order that we could insert something in the Bill to satisfy everybody? Perhaps they will be able to come together in some way within the next two weeks. Mr. Carolan implied that the culture of the Arts Council was in some way against the traditional arts.
Mr. Carolan
That is a misunderstanding. I said it lacked understanding of the nature and needs of traditional music, not that it was against it. There is a difference.
That is because of the composition of the Arts Council, which obviously directs its executive. It may be more of a reflection on the council than the executive. It is the Minister who appoints the members of the council - the Minister should have appointed people to represent the traditional arts in the past. Previous Ministers must have ignored the traditional arts in the way they appointed the members of the council.
Mr. Carolan wants to have section 21 deleted because it is divisive. Realistically, the Minister will not delete it. However, he may amend it. If the representatives can come up with a solution, collectively and in the common interest, it will help us greatly. Mr. Moylan said section 21 was a poisoned chalice. If there is no standing committee, how can the Government address the real interests of Irish music through its agencies? How can it be done through other agencies if it cannot be done through the process outlined in the Bill?
I have cousins in Mr. McAllister's branch whom he may or may not know. He talked about education and said there should be a coherent national policy on the arts. Without a standing committee on education, for example, can the Arts Council fulfil that role as educators? That is very important. He also spoke about transparency and so on. One of the problems brought up was the idea that the council allocated funding. It will still allocate it under the Bill. The Minister has confirmed, in section 24, the arm's length approach to funding. Since funding seems to be the main issue, should the Minister not have a say in how it is to be distributed? For example, if the process is to be totally transparent - if the council will have to be accountable to someone as regards funding - should the Minister have a say in how grants are given?
Mr. Deaton spoke about disparate groups. Can we not have a coming together of minds on this? All of the representatives speak passionately about the traditional arts to which they have obviously devoted their lives. This is an opportunity for them to insert something into the Bill that would guarantee a flourishing future for the traditional arts. I appeal to all of them to come together. Should there be a definition of "Irish traditional arts" in the Bill? Should we outline exactly what we are talking about? All of the innovation is coming from the traditional arts. That is where Siamsa came from, followed by Riverdance and Lord of the Dance; Ceol Ciarraí has its own Dance of the Moon. Surely artistic innovation should apply more to the traditional arts than other artistic forms.
Ms Brady made a point I made on Second Stage of the Bill about education. She said 89% of leaving certificate students saw music as being very important - I agree - but how many of them study it up through school, apart from her own intervention? Does she not see the importance of a standing committee on education because she emphasises the need for education so much? Obviously, Comhaltas cannot provide education across the country. Every youngster goes to primary school and most go to secondary school. Surely the way to have an effect on young people is through the education system. That is the reason the Department of Education and Science, as distinct from the Arts Council, should be funding the arts.
The Irish Music Network is compiling a report on music. Apparently, the approach is very futuristic and exciting. Surely this Bill should not be concluded until we receive the report. I understand it is finished. Can it not be released in advance in order that we can have access to it before we complete the final Stages of the Bill?
I heard Mr. MacMathúna singing The Boys of Barr na Sráide one night and somebody said they must have no songs in County Clare.
Mr. MacMathúna
We have Come on the Banner.
He reflects the alienation felt by so many of the members of Comhaltas about the way traditional music has been isolated in the past, although it never really happened in County Kerry where it was always part of the culture, but in other parts of the country it was not even entertained. It did not seem to be an essential part of the culture of the community. In County Kerry we take it for granted. In this respect we are very fortunate. Much of his frustration is reflected by the members appointed to the Arts Council. There should have been a voice for Comhaltas and the traditional music sector as well as others. Perhaps the membership of the council did not reflect the views of the traditional sector. We should analyse this.
While I will not add to the list of questions my colleagues have more than adequately compiled, I welcome both groups and thank them for their presentations. It would be remiss of me to let the occasion pass without congratulating them, individually and collectively, for the education they have given us and the positive effect they have all had in their individual fields in contributing to the massive upsurge of interest in the arts generally over the last 20 or 30 years. The last presentation stood out because of the passion of those involved. I must also mention those who have been working within the Pale in the traditional arts.
I refer to Deputy Deenihan's comments. With the first group, he hit the nail on the head and I agree wholeheartedly with his comments. The obvious division within the ranks is very much to be regretted. It may now be the eleventh hour, but I still urge all concerned to come together, if at all possible, to see whether any kind of resolution is possible. It would be much better to have a resolution arrived at by the interested groups rather than have an arbitrary solution imposed. I look forward to hearing from the Arts Council delegation, hopefully within a couple of weeks. The council's presentation will be of vital importance to the entire procedure.
It has been confirmed that representatives of the council will come before us on Thursday next.
With respect to everyone present, I come from Clare and people in the county boast that it is the home of traditional music. Mr. Deaton said he was born in Clare and has a great interest in Irish music. Clare is the home of Irish music and, for Deputy Deenihan's information, many traditional songs originated in the county.
That is what was said by those around me. He sang it better than any Kerryman.
I admire what the people who are promoting traditional music have done. As already stated, a Member of the House referred to traditional music as "bog oak culture". It is far from bog oak culture and, coming from the Banner County, I like to sing and dance a set. I do not play much, just the odd tune on occasion. hope we can do something in the Bill to put Comhaltas and traditional music on a solid footing, which is why I support it.
The climate must be right in order for the Bill to address the problems to which everyone has referred. It was interesting to listen to Nicholas Carolan state that, in the bad days of the 1980s and because of the culture that held sway in the Arts Council at that time, a larger percentage of grants was given to the development of the traditional arts than during any other period.
I wish to comment on the appointment of the new Arts Council and how the witnesses, whom I welcome and thank for attending, believe traditional arts will be represented on it. I am sure representatives of the traditional arts sector served as members on the previous Arts Council, but they did not seem to win the battle to provide the funding necessary for the development of the traditional arts. How will this change? Under the new structures being put in place, the Arts Council, in tandem with the Minister, will appoint members of the different committees. How will the basic problem of the culture of the new Arts Council be overcome? How do our guests see the necessary representations being made in their particular areas to ensure that happens?
With regard to the issue of representation on the Arts Council, what happened in the past and who was appointed and who was not? The membership is being reduced to nine under the Bill, but if there were 90 members it still would not be representative of either our guests or others. How will they deal with the nine new members of the Arts Council? Similarly, if we take a standing committee of five members, how can we ensure that all of the elements of the traditional sectors are embraced?
A number of Members said that funding was needed for festivals and summers schools, but Mr. Mac Mathúna said that we will not have festivals or summer schools unless young people are trained. Those who organise summer schools and festivals and those who educate form just three groups out of a total of perhaps 300 groups in the traditional sector. Some people will seek money for instruments, while others will seek it in order to stock their archives. The demand for this money, even if it is made available, will always exceed the supply. However, that is another matter. Is the Arts Council really the answer to our problems?
Mr. McAllister
We say nothing.
I return to what Deputy Deenihan said about the music networks report on the Departments of Arts, Sport and Tourism and Education and Science working together. How can we ensure that music is taught in every school? Should that be the role for the Arts Council or is it too big a job for the council to undertake? I come from an arts background, so I understand that if children do not get started early, not just in the traditional area but in all others, they will never become great performers. Tom Sherlock and others will have no one to manage if these children do not come through.
This is a bigger question which involves the issue of the standing committees. What would be the role of a standing committee? Would it lie primarily in the area of education or in the provision of funding to purchase equipment such as instruments? Would such a committee be at loggerheads with or would it work in co-operation with other initiatives in education? How would it be put together? It is similar to the question of how Comhaltas distributes money to its regional branches. How does a local authority distribute its money? It is a huge issue and I am glad we have the chance to start to debate it.
This is like the debate on the Nice Treaty when "Yes" and "No" meant different things to different people. I am sure our guests have worked together on many aspects of this and I would be delighted if, as Deputies Deenihan and Glennon stated, they could arrive at a solution between themselves.
I am not directly involved in Comhaltas and I do not play an instrument, so I am relying on what our guests have told us. I would love to see co-operation in some form. Is it really a question of funding? The Arts Council had planned on having a budget of €53 million, but I will actually have only €44 million. The money has been reduced, so we will need to put our heads together to find other ways of thinking and operating.
Local sports partnerships bring the representatives of various sports together - rugby, soccer, tennis and others - together and they work well together in terms of making applications for funding, etc. This system seems to be operating quite well. It is a new idea. I wonder whether the same concept has been tried with music and traditional arts. Sports partnerships also operate in Gaeltacht schools. The representatives of the partnerships arrive in schools with big bags of goodies such as tennis balls, footballs and every type of equipment to encourage the children to take up a variety of sports. There was a time when there was just Gaelic football and nothing else. Progress has been made, however, and I wonder if can we consider the issue before us in the coming weeks to see if a solution can be found.
I also compliment our visitors and thank them for the great work their organisations are doing. I can see that there are divisions among them. We have a difficult time because we receive representations from various organisations and we are asked to do one thing or the other. The easy solution for us would be if our guests could come together, if possible.
From what I have heard, the nub of the issue is a lack of funding and a lack of access to whatever funding is available. To be fair, representatives of the Arts Council will be here next week and we can hear their side of the story because they will have heard the criticisms which were levelled at them. Members have also criticised them, justly or unjustly.
Where allocations of money are concerned, it is great if one is allocated a share. If one's application for funding is unsuccessful, however, one will naturally question the functions of the Arts Council. People must remember that when money is allocated by the Arts Council, as in this case, it has to be seen to be allocated properly and fairly. That is the main problem.
I recall making representations for funding on several occasions to the previous Minister who informed me she had no say whatsoever in the allocation of moneys, that it was solely a matter for the Arts Council. It is difficult to explain to a constituent in a small town which has a theatre, the members of which do a great deal of voluntary work, the reason it cannot get funding, yet money can be allocated to a project in another town only five or six miles away. Like any delegation, we have our frustrations. Everybody, especially those who give of their time and work voluntarily, should be respected. One can never be compensated for the time put in voluntarily. I sincerely thank the people concerned for what they are doing for the country.
I apologise for my absence for some of the deliberations. However, I listened on the monitor and regret I could not be present to listen properly given that the delegations have come such a long way to make their submissions to the committee.
Taking up a point raised by the Chairman as to whether the Arts Council is the answer to everything, she hit the nail on the head. The council is like a governing body which will monitor and plan a strategy, but it is not the panacea to everybody's ills. The point about the massive role education has to play in developing and progressing the arts, music in particular, is important. The Department of Education and Science should bear some of the responsibility.
Deputy English mentioned the way in which sports are promoted. That is a good example of the way in which we should be marketing the arts, whether it is music, song or dance. We should look at the extent to which sport is ingrained in Irish culture and use it as a model. That is the reason it is necessary to look beyond the Arts Council as a source of funding.
I did not hear the point made, although it may have been, that Comhaltas is able to have this network which it attempts to put in place in every community. It is laudable that this can be done - outside the remit of the Arts Council. The council, therefore, does not have all the answers. I echo the points made.
Section 21, under which it is proposed to establish three standing committees, states, "(a)one shall assist and advise the Council on matters relating to traditional Irish arts." The arts are loosely defined in the interpretation section in terms of traditional and contemporary arts. The word "Irish" is being added. My view of the arts, in particular the traditional arts, is that they change and adapt as time passes. While their remit is enormous, our focus has been primarily on music.
The wording of the section could lead to much division. The issue at the end of the day is what are traditional Irish arts? How does one divide the arts? These questions will present many problems. Like other members, I realise there are very committed individuals present who have spent a lifetime in this wide area. Unfortunately, there are differing opinions, but the route taken should be one of working matters through in the interests of what everybody wants, that is, to promote the arts generally and what we call the traditional arts in particular. Taking them from the pile, however, will be a difficult operation.
Perhaps we could have answers to the questions asked and any concluding remarks members of the delegation may wish to make.
Mr. MacMathúna
I was involved in the founding of Píobairí Uilleann and the organisation of Willie Clancy Week during which I lectured a few years ago. I have tremendous admiration for what Nicholas Carolan is doing. There should be more emphasis on what unites us. To be truthful, I was astonished at the number of personal attacks in the correspondence for which there is no place. Traditional music is both wonderful and positive. It has certainly changed my life from being run of the mill to a happy one. There are many wonderful people involved.
As I said, much more emphasis should be placed on what unites us. There is a great deal that unites traditional musicians. In our alienation we suggested the establishment of a separate council to deal with traditional music and the Minister has come up with a compromise. I am happy to go along with anything that is transparent provided somebody somewhere can say, "The buck stops here." All along it has been a blank wall. In its dealings with us the Arts Council is a relatively faceless institution. When one gets home, one says one got nothing and asks why. If we can receive recognition from the council and ensure unity among those committed to traditional music, I will be happy.
Mr. Deehihan
Does Comhaltas apply directly to the Arts Council for funding?
Mr. MacMathúna
It applies to various groups. I was in Gurteen last Friday night where Peter Rowan, an outstanding elderly musician, was recorded on video. The bitter complaint was that those involved in Gurteen had applied to two groups, one of which was the Arts Council. Gurteen is a little village just like Miltown Malbay or Gweedore and has a long tradition. They were very sour because they had received no offer of help. Even €500 would have been a help.
As a matter of interest, would Comhaltas have quantified the level of funding applied for and received?
Mr. McAllister
I would not have thought it would have been prepared in such a form.
It is straight across the traditional sector.
Ms Brady
Deputy Deenihan asked the number of people in Tullamore who have attended a class. Of the leaving certificate students surveyed, 41% had attended a class, of whom 35% still play. The reasons given by the 59% who had not attended a class were: lack of interest, no class available, peer pressure, not aware of opportunities in the area. How can we encourage a child to take an interest in something if we do not expose them to it? It all comes down to education.
There is an initiative, Meitheal, in force in Comhaltas which is a fundamental element of our 21st century renewal programme. An education committee was established as part of that and I will quickly outline the aims towards which we are working. We intend to examine six areas, the first of which is the traditional music teacher's diploma. At present, there is a diploma course which is run by a retired schools inspector, Mr. Micheál O'Hynes, in conjunction with Comhaltas. It does not receive funding from any other organisation. We want proper certification for traditional music teachers who have diplomas and who have gone through the apprenticeship process, so to speak. They can then go into schools, county by county, and teach various regional styles of our music, singing and dancing to the children. We know that regional styles are very important in the traditional arts.
Apart from Comhaltas intervention, is music on the curriculum at school?
Ms Brady
In my school or as part of Comhaltas?
Is it on the ordinary curriculum? For example, if Comhaltas did not exist, would children be exposed to music?
Ms Brady
We have two music teachers, both of whom are competent classical musicians. I teach Irish and geography, but because I have a diploma in teaching traditional music, I am also delighted to be able to teach traditional music to transition year leaving certificate applied students. However, such a situation is not the norm in schools. I am fortunate that our school has a proactive principal and a very supportive board of management who allow me to do that and, as a result, we have a very competent group of traditional musicians in the school.
Last year, as part of Seachtain na Gaeilge, we visited all the primary schools in the Tullamore area and played music to 1,000 children. That is what we like to do. Many of those children had never heard traditional music before, yet it is on their doorstep. If my school did not have a nice principal, I would not have been able to take the day off. However, I am fortunate in that he is very supportive. That is not the case in every school, but if we had statutory support it would be possible.
The other issue being discussed by the education sub-committee of Meitheal is the possibility of distributing information packs to all schools on the various aspects - not just music - of traditional arts. We have not mentioned storytelling. We all remember the late seanchaí, Eamon Kelly, who was a genius in his own right, but just because he was a traditionalist does not mean that he was less important than anybody else. He was excellent at what he did and if we do not encourage the practice of storytelling, we will lose it.
Another issue under discussion is links between schools and branches. We have 400 branches throughout the country and we could send people from those branches into every primary school to teach them about music and how to play music, but because we are working on a voluntary basis, we do not have that sort of funding. I spoke earlier about my father, who is 69 yeas old, retired and probably looks like Santa Claus to a five year old. He goes to the local primary school in Killeigh and plays his flute for the children because he has the time to do so. I do not have that time, I have to do my job. As already stated, however, my principal has been supportive of my activities.
There may have to be a debate on whether the people who go into schools should be asked to do so on a voluntary basis. If we are underestimating the value of music and whether they should be paid——
Ms Brady
Yes.
That is the question I posed in relation to the standing committee. How would it be constituted, what type of membership will it have and is it possible that all the areas in which your organisation is involved could come under the one umbrella?
Mr. Deaton
At least they would share the same ethos, and surely that is the most important aspect. We may disagree about details, but we all sit down to play together afterwards. We all come from the same traditional arts community and we understand what it is about. There is no doubt that regardless of who is on the committee, there will be arguments from time to time. However, arguments produce results. We know what we are talking about because we have the expertise, the understanding and the sympathy.
It has been suggested that the standing committee might be at loggerheads with the Arts Council in general. If that is the case, it is only symptomatic of the distrust that existed for many years. There has never been a forum in which concerns could be properly aired. If arguments take place, so be it. Let us get everything out in the open. We need accountability and transparency in any arguments made.
The question of definitions was mentioned and we understand that concern. Our concern is that definitions, by their nature, are restrictive and if we introduce a rigid set of definitions of what is traditional or the arts that should be covered, we will be accused of the very thing we are trying to prevent, namely, elitism. If I say I love music, we can debate the definition of "love" and "music" for the next week, but at the end of that time I will know exactly what I mean. It is like asking, "What is jazz?". If we have to explain jazz to a person, he or she does not know what it is, but the committee has an ethos and an understanding.
We have to leave it to the committee to decide what is and is not traditional because as was rightly said, the tradition is evolving and it is innovative. Gerry Godley, a jazz musician to whose music I have listened and admire, said that the Irish traditional arts evolve like a glacier, not like a volcano. Every now and then there is a creative blip but they evolve slowly and we are concerned that if a restrictive definition is put in, that evolution might come on top of——
The storytelling example given by Ms Brady may not be included in the overall thinking in terms of traditional arts, but if it were included in the definition surely that would give it the right to some support.
It is a little like ballet or step-dancing. If they are not defined, they might not be included in the grounds for funding. However, funding should not be a central core of any standing committee. It should have a broader focus than that. "Money" should not be the only word that is associated with it, but we are in a vicious circle in that respect.
For example, the answer from the Arts Council could be that it does not regard that as a traditional art.
It is a vicious circle because if we define arts, we are putting them in a box. Traditional arts should be evolving and spontaneous.
Mr. Deaton
Ultimately, it is about making value judgments. We have to trust the people who make the value judgments.
We will ask the Minister what he thinks should be the definition of traditional arts.
Mr. McAllister
In discussing the matter in recent days, we referred back to 1962 when one could not eat meat on a Friday, one had to fast from 12 o'clock if one was taking communion and it was a mortal sin not to go to Mass on Sunday. Those things may no longer be true, but we are all - or most of us anyway - still Catholics. The fact that something changes does not make it different.
One of the arguments against including a definition is that we cannot provide one, but I would ask Mr. Carolan how he determines what is to be included in the archive. The archive is called the Irish Traditional Music Archive, but what is included in that? Somebody must have defined it. If the Arts Council can say it gave funding of 0.9% to the traditional arts, somebody must have defined it because if it was not defined, it could not be quantified and, therefore, the Arts Council would not know how much money to allocate. Deputy Deenihan is correct that this is a debate which must be taken further. I agree with the comment that we should all get together and talk. I am from Belfast, a few people at the committee know me and are aware that I could talk for Ireland. I will talk for 24 hours.
Does Mr. McAllister listen?
Mr. McAllister
Only when the advice is good.
The Minister asked for submissions. Some 260 parties made submissions and these were brought together from the consultative process, which was chaired by an independent consultant who brought forward recommendations. The Minister and the civil servants looked at those and brought forward a Bill. We appear to be going back to where we were 18 months ago, to a discussion that has already taken place.
At the end of the process to draw up a Bill, it is necessary to find a compromise that both sides are happy with. I do not mean that we should go back to the beginning but if everyone is to be happy, compromise is needed.
We are seeking opinions on the Bill at this stage. The Bill is something definite to which we can react. This process is helping us, though probably more than it is helping Mr. McAllister.
Mr. McAllister
I know. I am not saying that we should not talk.
Mr. McAllister was involved in the overall process but they probably did not discuss this as a group.
Deputy Deenihan addressed a couple of points to me. I echo Mr. McAllister's remark that engaging in consultation was no problem. The Deputy misunderstood me when he asked what agencies, if not the Arts Council, I would have in mind for effecting a proper policy with regard to Irish music. The Arts Council is the appropriate agency to effect that policy.
Deputy Glennon referred to both groups as if there were just two blocks on opposing sides. There are three groups represented at this table: Ceoltas Ceoltoíri Éireann, Píobairí Uilleann and the Traditional Music Archive. There are other groups not represented here and we should not refer to just two groups.
With regard to a definition, two experts are to be brought in to advise the Arts Council. They will effectively decide what is traditional music and will bring their prejudices and biases to the table with them. It is not good enough to have two people deciding what is traditional music. That is why I echo Mr. Carolan's call for a body that would consult widely and take the best expert advice from the entire field. I commend that suggestion to the committee.
Will the two experts come from the Arts Council?
I am not sure.
Mr. McAllister
I think two people will be appointed by the Arts Council, two by the Minister and there will be an independent chairman. It does not say that the two people must be from the Arts Council, so the council could pick anyone.
Two outsiders.
Mr. McAllister
The Minister could pick anyone also. It could be any four people, not just members of the Arts Council?
The only person who will be a member of the Arts Council is the chairperson.
Mr. Carolan
Deputy Deenihan inquired about the groups getting together. It is clear from today's meeting that there are two sides to the argument. However, the vast majority of those involved in traditional music do not belong to any organisations. They are people who play, like, listen to and follow traditional music.
There are people for and against it and that is obvious. It is not confined to particular groups. Compromise should be reached or some people will be very disappointed afterwards.
Mr. Carolan
I agree. However, the only division is on section 21. I hope that all involved are moving in the same direction. I will admire Séamus Mac Mathúna's flute playing as much tomorrow as today, even though we are on different sides of the section 21 debate. The Deputy asked about the amendment of section 21, but my difficulty is that it does not address the problem. It will not bring more money to the traditional arts and does not concern itself with budgetary matter.
I cannot change policy, I only speak for the board. What we recommend addresses the problem of inappropriate funding. We suggest that the Minister set up the council and committee to consult widely, decide the appropriate funding and then return with recommendations. If the Minister does not like the answer or feels that the consultative process was biased, he can revisit it as many times as possible. That will set some kind of benchmark level for the traditional arts.
If there are to be nine members of the council and eight of those are from a traditional arts background, that will not solve the problem. If that is the case, this committee will next year have to meet people from the visual arts or literature, each making an as impassioned case as we have made. A committee of nine cannot have full arts form representation, not to mention geographical representation. It will have to be hoped that public spirited people, who will make the right decisions for the right reasons, will be appointed. I am not sure that those appointed, whoever they may be, will address the problem.
Our proposal addresses the problem with regard to the amount of the Arts Council budget that should go to the traditional arts. I hope that all this is progressed in a spirit of friendship and common cause. We are all interested in music, song and dance and passing these on. As an educationalist, I identify with Ms Brady teaching whistle after school in cold classrooms because I have also done that. I know the value of Ceoltas branches and I was a member in good standing for ten years in Dublin until the branch of which I was a member came to its end. If it had not, I would still be a member of Ceoltas.
Mr. McAllister
I will give Mr. Carolan membership of my organisation.
Mr. Carolan
It is not a matter of being pro- or anti-Ceoltas, although it may seem like that from this meeting. It is a disagreement over strategy and, coming as I do from a traditional music background, I do not believe that section 21 will solve the problem.
Mr. Deaton
With regard to section 21, the standing committee will have the power to advise and will be charged with the responsibility of advising the Arts Council as to how money should be spent and funding allocated. It would be unthinkable for the Arts Council to have a standing committee recommending funding and for the council to take no notice of that recommendation. It would go against the spirit of the Act and against common sense. I am sure the Minister of the day would also believe that to be the case. I do not accept that it will not result in a better share of the cake for traditional music. I think it will.
The budget for the arts is in the hands of the Oireachtas. The traditional arts sector wants its fair share and is entitled to it.
Ms Brady
I want to make it clear that the members of Ceoltas originally wanted a traditional arts council and that we are now making a compromise. We are quite happy with the standing committee, as outlined in the Bill, and that is clearly a compromise. We do not refer to Ceoltas as an organisation, but as a movement, and one that holds the people's interest in traditions at is heart. Regardless of whether a person is a member of Ceoltas, it is looking out for his or her best interests because it is a movement.
I thank those who have come before the committee. The issue of communication was central to what was being said today, whether it was the communication from the Arts Council to the various organisations telling them why they did not get funding, or where they stood on section 21. The comment was made that argument led to results. Debate also leads to results. Today many questions were raised and thoughts expressed. There will probably be many responses next week from the Arts Council which has been represented for the course of this debate, which has been worthwhile. The Bill will come before the committee on 11 December when the comments made will inform the Committee Stage debate. I thank the visitors and members for their constructive comments.
The select committee adjourned at 2.20 p.m. sine die.