SELECT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 2002

Vol. 1 No. 3

Arts Bill, 2002: Committee Stage.

SECTION 1.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, subsection (1), line 16, after "Arts" to insert "Council".

This is the third Arts Bill in the history of the State. The first Arts Bill, in 1951, was introduced by the then Taoiseach, Mr. Costello. At the time it was probably the first Arts Bill in the world. It was seen as a very positive start. It resulted from a report by Dr. Thomas Bodkin which was scathing about the lack of provision for the arts. The 1973 Bill was different. The 1951 Bill allowed for seven members and the 1973 Bill, 17 members. The 1973 Act gave power to the Arts Council to be the prime policy mover and copperfastened its independence.

I welcome the fact that all the members of the committee received the book Dreams and Responsibilities by Brian P. Kennedy on the history of legislation on the arts in this country. One principle running through that book and the debate is the principle of an arms length relationship. I have an amendment on this topic, which we will address later.

Pressure was exerted by various sectors of the arts fraternity for a change in legislation because the arts are organic and are changing and reaching out to new areas all the time. Technology has greatly changed the entire arts perspective. It started with the PricewaterhouseCoopers report in the 1990s, followed by a good consultation paper, Towards a New Framework for the Arts, which was widely distributed. Arising from that, about 230 submissions were received andTheo Dorgan was commissioned to report on these.

Despite all the consultation, and the thought that has been invested in arts policy and its legislative framework since 1961, the Bill before us is not as expansive or inclusive as I thought it would be. I propose, therefore, that we call it the Arts Council Bill rather than the Arts Bill. There is precedent for that in other countries' legislation. For example, in Australia, there is the Australia Council Act, 1975; in Northern Ireland there is the Arts Council Order, 1995; in New Zealand there is the Arts Council of New Zealand Act, 1994; and in Canada they have the Canada Council for the Arts Act.

The Bill focuses on how the Arts Council works, its relationship with the Minister and how that has changed since the 1973 legislation. It introduces the idea of standing committees that would have a legislative basis. It has nothing to do with the major cultural institutions like the National Concert Hall, the Museum of Modern Art, the National Theatre, the National Gallery, the Chester Beatty Library or the National Museum. It also has little to do with the Irish language, which hardly receives a mention. I have tabled some amendments that seek to include the Irish language in the Bill.

The Bill makes no reference to individual artists. I have tried to make provision for these people in a later amendment.

Chairman

Will the Deputy confine his comments to the amendment?

Mr. Deenihan

I am justifying my amendment. Because it is not a broadly based Bill, it is not accurate to refer to it as the Arts Bill. On reading Dreams and Responsibilities, I came across a comment made by a good friend of the Minister, former Taoiseach, Charlie Haughey, who welcomed the introduction of the 1973 legislation because it directed attention towards artistic matters. He expressed disappointment with its serious limitations and stated that he hoped much more far reaching legislation for the promotion of artistic and cultural endeavour would come before us on some future occasion. On the Committee Stage debate on the legislation in question, the former Taoiseach sensibly stated, "it seems to me that it would have been infinitely preferable to repeal the Arts Act, 1951, and re-enact one composite piece of legislation." To be the Arts Bill, this would need to be composite legislation and be far broader in its terms. I appeal to the Minister to accept the amendment.

Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue)

I agree with Deputy Deenihan that this is the first legislation relating to the arts to be introduced in a long period. It is 30 years since a Bill dealing with the Arts was introduced and it is important that we ensure this legislation is as comprehensive as possible because it may be many years before the next Arts Bill comes before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Bill should reflect the changes that have occurred in Irish society in the 30 years since the last Arts Bill was enacted. It should also take account of the considerable changes that have taken place over the past 20 years. It should further take account of the Good Friday Agreement and the continuing diversity and multiculturalism of Irish society.

Deputy Deenihan seeks to change the title of the legislation on the basis that, in his view, it deals with the council of the arts only and not the broader spectrum. I take issue with that view. The legislation goes much further than merely dealing with the council. I accept that it mentions the council and deals with the proposed structures for the council, but this does not mean it does not address other issues. The issues it addresses include: the role of local authorities in the arts; the role of other public bodies in the arts; and issues affecting the Minister of the day and the arts. The terms of the legislation are much broader than outlined by Deputy Deenihan. This will be illustrated as we deal with the various sections. In those circumstances, I am not prepared to accept the Deputy's amendment.

Mr. Deenihan

The Minister seems to have put major emphasis on local authorities. Local authorities were catered for in the 1973 Act, so that is no great change in this Bill. This legislation gives statutory recognition to standing committees that the Arts Council can already establish. The Minister was not responsible for introducing the Bill and, knowing his predecessor, I do not believe she had any underhanded intentions.

One aspect that has changed is the autonomy of the Arts Council, which we will discuss at length later. This Bill is primarily concerned with the membership, structures and independence of the Arts Council. It should be called the Arts Council Bill because it does not do anything more than did the 1973 or 1951 legislation. It adds more terminology because of the changes that have taken place over the past 30 years, and it deals with technology and recognises the traditional arts for the first time, something that should have been recognised anyway. I will call a vote on this amendment.

Mr. Wall

I support Deputy Deenihan with regard to this matter. This legislation has caught the imagination of a wide range of people across the country. In my time in the House, I have never received as many representations as on this legislation. I am pleased we are bringing the previous Acts up to date and ensuring that the legislation meets the criteria laid down today due to relevant changes, including technical changes.

However, the Arts Council was the central focus of all representations on this. Everyone sees the Arts Bill as having to do with the workings of the Arts Council and how the council will interact with different areas of the arts. The traditional arts issue has ensured that this has been a hot subject that divided people where it was not thought there would be division. That has happened despite all those who came before the committee being willing to work together. However, one thing seems to have pulled them apart.

Everyone sees the Bill as reflecting what the Arts Council will do in the future, and the Minister could look at changing this. There is no major problem with that because when the Bill goes through its Final Stage, it will reflect mainly on the Arts Council. It is not a major change that is required and that is what those deeply interested in the arts want. The Minister should accept the amendment.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I agree with Deputy Wall that there has been a high level of representation with regard to this Bill. I am a veteran of many Bills, including three Bills in Private Members' time, when I was Opposition spokesperson on justice and some 47 Bills as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. In that time, I have never received as many representations regarding one Bill. That is welcome and reflective of Ireland today. It means that an issue that many regarded as being peripheral, is to many people, central to our way of life. That is a happy thing irrespective of the views held. It is wonderful that legislation dealing with a subject such as this should have received so much attention and should be of concern to so many people. It is indicative of a maturing society which values things of the spirit as opposed to things material.

With regard to Deputy Deenihan's amendment, this Bill is not just about the Arts Council. The definition in the Bill of what constitutes the arts represents a new, inclusive and flexible definition. The definition contains an important statement of principle which takes account of ongoing developments. The Arts Council is not the only area to be examined in terms of policy. The policy role of the Minister with regard to the arts generally, as well as to the Arts Council, is dealt with, as it is the intention that arts plans will in future be fully inclusive of as many State bodies as possible. The full inclusion of local authorities in the arts is something which will be especially welcomed. It is important that there is clearly defined local responsibility and ownership of the arts.

This Bill signals clearly that the arts will not be structurally pigeonholed, that they are to be inclusive, that we are serious about involving public bodies, that there will not be centralisation with regard to the arts but decentralisation and that it will be dealt with in the regions as well as the capital. Perhaps most important of all, the statement of principle enshrined in the definition of the arts indicates that the arts in Ireland will not be confined to the drawing rooms of what a colleague once described as a state of mind as opposed to a geographical region, Dublin 4. The arts will be brought to the people which is what the remit of the legislation is also concerned with. The arts will not be the preserve of the chattering classes but of everybody. That is what the legislation says.

Mr. Deenihan

Those are noble aspirations and I admit that the Minister has the gift of language that many before him from Cahirciveen had, including the great Sigerson Clifford and others. However, I disagree with him, and time will tell the true story. The Minister speaks about an expansion or explosion of the arts because of this Bill. There is no member present who sees the legislation in that way. It will not lead to an expansion of the arts or the infiltration of the arts to all parts of rural Ireland, where the arts are ongoing in any case.

Money and the provision of resources is the critical point and this Bill makes no recommendations in that regard. To set up standing committees is not to say those committees are entitled to funding. That commitment must be there. It was a bad start when the Minister cut back the Arts Council allocation by close to €5 million. The arts plan should be reflected in this Bill because it is a good plan. However, the Arts Council looked for €53 million in the plan and got only €45 million. That is a difference of €8 million. The Minister's enthusiasm is not reflected in his commitment in the Estimates and I cannot see the Bill having this big effect.

The Minister mentioned that he has been involved in far more legislation than I over the years. I have been involved in several private Members Bills and can understand the process well. I was also involved in the processing of legislation as a junior Minister. There is a raft of legislation, but that is not reflected on the ground. The only way for the Minister to put into effect the provisions of this Bill will be by providing money. It would be very wrong to build up the expectation that this Bill will result in an explosion in the arts with artists being looked after and cultural institutions developed further. We would be better off if we did not increase expectation and, instead, proceeded on the basis that this legislation relates to the Arts Council.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Tá poínte bheag amháin agam faoin teideal. Sé an teideal atá ar an eagras ná An Comhairle Ealaíne. Ba chóir don teideal ar an Bhille a bheith "Bille an Chomhairle Ealaíne". That should be the Bill's proper title. I agree with the sentiments of Deputies Deenihan and Wall.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I will respond to Deputy Deenihan who referred to the issue of funding in the context of the title of the Bill. There has been an enormous increase of the order of 80% in the funds which have been made available to the Arts Council since 1997. In 1997, the Arts Council was provided with £27 million whereas today we are speaking of €44 million. It is important to make that point when people can sometimes be confused. The point is peripheral to the question of the amendment which Deputy Deenihan has tabled. The Government has accepted the arts plan as the Deputy well knows. While it may not be implemented as expeditiously as had been hoped, the Government has committed to it.

Mr. Deenihan

The plan was adopted in the programme for Government, but it has already been reneged on. Next year will be catch-up time. There are a number of programmes which depended on funding for this year and, unfortunately, they will not now be able to go ahead in their original form or with the original effectiveness envisaged.

I accept that arts funding has increased with a considerable beneficial effect which has been manifest everywhere with the provision of exhibition centres, literary centres and cultural centres. Every euro spent on the arts has a major beneficial effect for people and the economy. In 1951 the Arts Act was put in place and the budget asked for was £30,000, but provision was made for £20,000. We have certainly come a long way considering the fact that the money had to provide for wages and programmes. It should be recognised that today's funding has come on the basis of money made available through the national lottery. My party put that in place when it was in Government and the result has been the considerable enhancement of the arts, as was the case in the UK. I am pressing the amendment.

Chairman

As less than 12 Members are present we are obliged under Standing Orders to wait eight minutes or until a full membership is present before putting the amendment.

Amendment put.

The Select Committee divided: Tá, 4; Níl, 8.

Tá

• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• English, Damien.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• Wall, Jack.

Níl

• Breen, James.
• Collins, Michael.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelly, Peter.
• O’Donoghue, John.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• Wright, G. V.

SECTION 2.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 2 to 6, inclusive, are related and will be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. O’Shea

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, subsection (1), line 25, after "interpretative" to insert "theory, conception, process, practice or".

I wish to deal with the two Labour Party amendments, Nos. 2 and 3, which concern the definition of "arts" contained in the Bill. This is an issue of concern. "Film" has been added to the definition brought forward by the Minister. Our two amendments seek to broaden the definition beyond expression to also cover theory.

Amendment No. 3 deals with a question debated by this committee as it took evidence, namely, the inclusion of the words "whether traditional or contemporary". We seek to have them deleted, not in order to exclude traditional arts from any definition, but simply because it is highly simplistic to suggest that all arts can be broken down into a dichotomy of traditional or contemporary. Apart from anything else this excludes a possible crossover between the two or any new forms of art.

Deputy Deenihan's amendment No. 4 seeks to delete the words "in particular" from the definition and insert instead the words "but is not limited to". I have no strong view one way or the other in relation to this.

Amendment No. 5, in the Minister's name, seeks to insert the word "circus" in the definition. Again, thanks to the book Dreams and Responsibility provided for us by the Arts Council, I find that in 1973 my former Waterford Dáil colleague, Austin Deasy, as a Senator, sought to have the word “circus” inserted in the definition. I am sure he would be very pleased that Fianna Fáil has finally met his aspiration in this regard.

Amendment No. 6, in the name of Deputy Deenihan, seeks to insert after the word "medium" the words ", of language or other". The explanatory memorandum clearly states the definition covers art forms in Irish, English and any other language. Perhaps the Minister will expand on this when responding. I do not want to cover Deputy Deenihan's amendments in making these observations. In essence, the Labour Party seeks to extend the definition beyond expression and include theory.

The other question is the vexed one of the inclusion of the words "whether traditional or contemporary". Our position is that it is simplistic to talk of putting traditional arts on one side and contemporary arts on the other. There is interplay between different forms of art. As well as this, changes are happening all the time and new art forms will undoubtedly come into play in the years ahead. It is important, therefore, that any definition is flexible enough to include art forms that emerge as time passes and allow for the possibility of crossover.

Mr. Deenihan

My argument for amendment No. 4 is along the same lines as that of Deputy O'Shea. Art forms are organic and change over time. There is continuous experimentation with new art forms. There is expansion of electronic forms of art, for example, in the area of music compositions using digital technology. Major changes are taking place because of technology. What I am proposing covers this change. The Arts Council will obviously have to work within this definition and will be obliged to interpret the Bill when it is enacted in regard to grant aid, etc.

It is important that we allow scope for the Arts Council to be flexible in its interpretation. In the book summarising arts legislation, which was referred to earlier, I read that former Deputy Austin Deasy made a big play to have circus included. It is a coincidence that the Fossett family attended one of our meetings a few weeks ago and lobbied us. Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú proposed at our first meeting that circus should be included in the Bill. If the sector had been included in the 1973 definition it might not be in its current difficulties, but hopefully it will recover.

This definition is specific. The deliberate recognition of different sectors is clear and unambiguous and, therefore, the absence of reference to language may be taken to mean that the Act, the Minister and the council have no specific function or responsibility for Irish language arts. The specificity of reference to the traditional arts is a reflection of a perceived need to copperfasten the recognition of art forms previously regarded as outside the core functions of the council. The same need arises in the case of Irish language arts.

My amendment was influenced by people who are concerned about the Bill from the point of view of the Irish language. This amendment will not change the impetus of the Bill, but it will help to sharpen its definition. It will certainly allay the fears of those who feel that, as a result of the specificity of the definition, Irish language arts could in some way be relegated to a second-class position or not be included at all. Deputy O'Shea referred to the fact that this is implied elsewhere. My amendment would copperfasten the position of the Irish language in the same way as that of the traditional arts is copperfastened.

Ms F. O’Malley

There needs to be scope to address arts practice in terms of new technologies. The arts, as defined in the section, might not necessarily include this so we need to allow for it to be interpreted to include new technologies and arts practice as they evolve.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I thank members for their contributions. My advice from the parliamentary counsel is that the existing wording of this draft is already broad enough to encompass all art forms, all stages of the creative process and all languages. I regret that I cannot accept amendments Nos. 2, 4 or 6.

With regard to amendment No. 3, the reference to traditional or contemporary arts is quite deliberate. It is there to convey that the arts do not just refer to contemporary arts but also to traditional arts. It is important to ensure that this is enshrined in the legislation. I understand the points made in regard to it and I will consult the parliamentary counsel to see if there is a better method of conveying this. Whether we do it this way or another, it is important that it be stressed that the traditional arts are encompassed in the definition of arts as much as the contemporary arts.

I have always been a great lover of the circus; some would say that is the reason I went into politics, but it is not. I am delighted to hear that one of my favourite political ringmasters, former Deputy Austin Deasy, proposed in 1973 that circus be included in the definition. I am anxious that it be included in the legislation and in the definition because it is an art form. It is, unfortunately, a dying art form but it is one which is well worth resuscitating. In those circumstances, I am pleased to put forward the amendment to the effect that, in future, circus will be officially regarded as an art in the context of the Statute Book. I met circus representatives and they were very clear in regard to their difficulties. I hope that official recognition of circus as an art form will help to ensure its continuity. There is room in every adult's mind for childhood memories and inasmuch as the circus mesmerises the young it also enthrals the old.

Mr. O’Shea

In fairness to the Minister, I should point out that when former Deputy Deasy sought to introduce the term "circus" into the definition a coalition Government was in place, so the Minister's move in this regard is all the more meritorious. I will ensure that Deputy Deasy hears about it.

The Minister said he is acting on the advice of the parliamentary counsel and, in regard to my amendments, that is obviously the case. He spoke about clarity, but it is questionable whether the inclusion of a phrase such as "whether traditional or contemporary" leads to any clarity. Effectively, it is a given in any definition of the arts that traditional and contemporary arts are included. It raises the question of what is traditional and what is contemporary. Where is the cut-off point? As I said earlier, it does not allow for cross-over between the two forms. It seems that it is a concept that has been placed in the legislation to reach a compromise in regard to concerns that have been expressed. However, the terminology used does nothing to improve the Bill and it would be better off without it.

I accept the Minister's undertaking that he will reconsider this issue in consultation with the parliamentary counsel. I take it that will be in the context of whether he considers it appropriate to either accept the Labour Party amendments or, alternatively, introduce amendments of his own. If the Minister looks at this objectively, he will see that the terminology does not add clarity to the definition.

The Minister's advice is to the effect that this provides clarity. I do not believe it does. Rather, it makes for confusion. I ask the Minister to have this examined between now and Report Stage in the context of our constructive attitude. It is important that the arts legislation be as precise as we can possibly make it because in a situation where the Arts Council continues under the arm's length principle, definitions in the legislation are what it must act in concert with. I fear we were introducing a very simplistic concept that does not add to the legislation but will lead to confusion and, worse, division and dissension.

Mr. Deenihan

I am disappointed the Minister did not accept my two amendments. They would not have radically altered the definition, because the definition is very specific. They would, if included, have allayed the fears of people who are genuinely concerned about the Irish language in the arts. If the Minister cannot accept the amendments now, will he agree to have a look at them before Report Stage?

Mr. O’Donoghue

The problem relates to the parliamentary counsel's view of the world. He is anxious that the definition of the arts should remain as it is. That is not to say that he is paramount in this; members are. However, in general terms, deleting the words "whether traditional of contemporary" would cause more difficulties than it would solve.

Deputy Deenihan proposed defining the traditional arts. To be fair, he made a fairly good stab at it. Even that involves difficulty and I will come to that later. As of now I am not prepared to make any change, but I will consider what has been said and discuss the matter further with the parliamentary counsel, although he is opposed to the proposed amendment. The inclusion of the words "whether traditional or contemporary" was in the interests of clarity and to leave no doubt that the Bill deals with both contemporary and traditional arts and not just one kind. It is obviously the intention of all members of the committee that traditional arts be encompassed in the definition. It is just a question of whether this is the way to do it. From what members have said, it is clear they feel that if the words "whether traditional or contemporary" are left out, traditional arts would still be covered within the definition of arts. For reasons of clarity the parliamentary counsel is anxious that we leave it as it is. However, I will discuss it with him.

Mr. Deenihan

What about the point I made regarding the Irish language?

Mr. O’Donoghue

It was my intention to deal with that. Originally there was a reference to the Irish language and, for technical reasons, the parliamentary counsel asked that it be removed.

Mr. Deenihan

Will the Minister reconsider that?

Mr. O’Donoghue

I will discuss it with him again.

Mr. Deenihan

I had intended tabling an amendment to include after the word "dance" the words " and new technologies" in order to cover digital technology and so on. If the Minister will not include that, I will enter it on Report Stage.

Mr. O’Shea

The Minister's response gives strength to my argument. He generously describes Deputy Deenihan's definition of traditional arts as a good stab but still has difficulty with it. The dilemma is to arrive at a clear definition of "traditional" on one hand and "contemporary" on the other. I do not believe that can be done. There are art forms that straddle the two areas, that come from a traditional base into the contemporary. What is being included does not give the clarity the parliamentary counsel, the Minister and the committee obviously want. On the basis of the Minister's undertaking to go back to the parliamentary counsel and discuss the points made during this debate, I will withdraw the two amendments in my name and that of Deputy Wall with a view to re-introducing them on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 not moved.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 3, subsection (1), line 27, after "film" to insert ", circus".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Deenihan

Before we move on, had the parliamentary counsel any problem with inserting the word "circus" in the definition?

Mr. O’Donoghue

No. The parliamentary counsel had no difficulty with inserting the word "circus" in the definition.

Mr. Deenihan

I cannot see then why he should have any difficulty in inserting what I suggest in my amendment No. 6. However, I will return to that later.

Amendment No. 6 not moved.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 3, subsection (1), between lines 28 and 29, to insert the following:

" 'arts plan' means a strategy document published by the Arts Council outlining the values, themes and objectives that will direct the Arts Council's activities over a given period;".

It is important to provide a definition of an arts plan because the raison d’être of the Arts Council is based on the arts plan, and its success over the years has been influenced by the presentation of an arts plan. The progress made in recent years is attributable to the existence of an arts plan that could be evaluated. The arts plan also provides a platform for the operation of the Arts Council and a guide for people making applications. The people we met who are involved in traditional arts and from whom we received so much correspondence, felt they were not getting fair treatment from the Arts Council. They were disappointed when applications they made to the Arts Council were refused because they were not deemed admissible. From their point of view it is important to justify an arts plan and to give it a status. It is a very important document. It is the raison d’être of the Arts Council. It is part of Government policy, part of the joint programme for Government. It is now enshrined in legislation. Why not define it?

There will be a number of standing committees and it is important to know how they will operate. There should be legislation to define the arts plan and give it recognition for the future. This is a five year arts plan. It could be another 20 to 25 years before the next legislation in the arts area is before the House - five arts plans later. It is important to define the arts plan and to give it recognition in the Bill if the exercise is to be meaningful.

Mr. Wall

I am concerned at the arts plan aspect being included in the Bill. There is a need to allow the Arts Council to develop its own identify in relation to its plans. There is not enough detail in the substance of the amendment as to when it should happen. A new council will come on stream in relation to the arts. We have to allow it develop its ideas and what it sees as the way forward for a strategy document. If this definition is included in the Bill, I would be worried that it would have to produce a plan within a specific period for a specific period. Given that we have waited a long time for this legislation we should allow the new Arts Council get into a position where it can create its own image and move forward. This amendment would hinder the Arts Council as the first part of its work would be to provide a strategy plan. I am interested to hear what the Minister has to say about it.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I do not have any real problem with defining an "arts plan" in the context of defining language. In the context of including it in this legislation I have a difficulty. The reason is that the Bill does not refer to an arts plan. Therefore, I would define something which is not included in the Bill. This would not serve the legislation. It would be a different matter if I referred specifically to the arts plans at various stages of the Bill or even in one section. On no occasion do the words "arts plan" appear in the Bill. Given that the words do not appear in the Bill it would cause a difficulty for me to accept the amendment.

Mr. Deenihan

What the Minister is implying is that there is no compulsion on the Arts Council to provide an arts plan.

Mr. O’Donoghue

No, I am not saying that for one moment. I am merely saying that including a definition of something which is not dealt with in the Bill would be a rather strange move.

Mr. Deenihan

To clarify the position, we have a strategy plan, the arts plan, which is an integral part of what the Arts Council is all about. To avoid confusion, as this legislation is being implemented especially as regards the standing committees, there will have to be some parameters within which the Arts Council will operate. One can look at it both ways - from a restrictive point of view or an expansive point of view. It is an issue to which the Minister should give greater consideration rather than dismiss it flippantly. I see value in having the amendment included in the Bill as it defines an arts plan for the future. The amendment reads:

" 'Arts plan' means a strategy document published by the Arts Council outlining the values, themes and objectives that will direct the Arts Council's activities over a given period;".

If the Minister looks at this arts plan that is expressly what is stated in my definition. It does nothing new but allows leeway for different themes and objectives. It copperfastens the arts plan from the point of view of Government funding and from the point of view of the operation of the Arts Council. It would be helpful for the Arts Council rather than cumbersome to have its arts plan defined.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I support Deputy Deenihan's contention. In Part 2, section 5(4), there is reference to a plan being prepared and submitted to the Minister in relation to the arts. There may not be a reference to a specific "arts plan" but that is what the Deputy is referring to and his amendment gives a better explanation than what is already in existence.

Mr. O’Donoghue

The reference to a plan in section 5(4) refers to a plan specifying strategies or measures that it proposes to adopt in relation to the arts. Nowhere in the Bill does the word "artist" appear but everybody would accept that the Arts Council deals with artists. This is not the thesaurus, this is a Bill dealing with the arts. It is not meant to be a catch-all dictionary. In those circumstances and since there is no reference to an "arts plan" in the Bill or a statutory requirement in relation to an "arts plan" or anything of that nature, it would be a mistake to start broadening out the legislation into areas where there appears to be no requirement to do so.

Mr. Deenihan

I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh for pointing out the reference to an arts plan in section 5(4), which we will come to later when discussing local authority. Subsection (4) reads:

A direction under this section may include a requirement that the Council prepare and submit to the Minister a plan specifying strategies or measures that it proposes to adopt in relation to the arts [surely that must be an arts plan if it is in relation to the arts] during the period to which the plan relates.

Given that it is referred to later in the Bill, the definition would not be out of place in the Bill. It would fit in with the various definitions and certainly there are good grounds for including it in the Bill.

Chairman

Has the Minister anything further to add?

Mr. O’Donoghue

As the senior counsel said, before writing 2,000,200 guineas nothing further occurs.

Chairman

How stands the amendment?

Mr. Deenihan

I can always resubmit it on Report Stage. If I get a note from the Minister's office outlining the reasons it cannot be done, I will accept it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 4, subsection (1), to delete lines 6 and 7 and substitute the following:

" 'Minister' means the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism;".

This is a technical amendment to take account of the changes in ministerial portfolios since the Bill was drafted.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 4, subsection (1), between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following:

" 'traditional arts' means creative or interpretative expression drawing upon forms which have a continuous usage over time, and includes, but is not limited to, instrumental music, song, dance, storytelling, recitation, dramatic forms, and other forms, in either language of the State, but recognising the changing nature of such forms over time.".

Mr. Deenihan

It is important that we define traditional arts. In my discussions with a number of traditional art groups some of them felt that would be appropriate while others did not agree with it because it gave people in that area more scope, and it is difficult to define what the area encompasses. There would be no comment about this Bill but for the fact that the traditional arts will get recognition, which is appropriate, and a standing committee on traditional arts was established and given power to make recommendations to the Minister on funding but not to allocate funds.

I refer to the PricewaterhouseCoopers findings which concluded that in order to develop Irish traditional arts to their full potential, there is a need for a broad-based policy framework to be developed and substantial resources devoted to developing initiatives, promotional and marketing activities and research and education initiatives. Its findings also concluded that whatever structure was put in place to cater for the effective and efficient application of new resources should be statutorily based, which we are doing; have an appropriate budget; and be accountable under the normal conditions which apply to public service bodies. It further stated that the structures required for the effective and efficient application of these resources should be put in place in either of the following ways: the Arts Council should be appropriately restructured and resourced or we should set up a new development or body to cater specifically for the needs of traditional arts. PricewaterhouseCoopers also concluded that there is a cultural imperative to preserve the heritage and social capital inherent in all the traditional arts forms.

The findings then go on to define traditional arts. They state that they must have their roots in the community and they must be in continuous usage over time. They must be a central part in the community's heritage and the way in which they inform the identity of that community must be implied. They go on to state that traditional arts are part of the nation's heritage, broadly based, mostly voluntary, practised widely, are successful and have significant development potential. In addition, PricewaterhouseCoopers concluded that traditional arts have a national significance in that they contribute to the three strategic aims of the state - Irish language, peace and reconciliation and input to European culture. It concludes by stating that traditional arts includes traditional song in Irish and English, traditional instrumental music, traditional dance, storytelling, whether in Irish or English, recitation and traditional dramatic poems in Irish and English.

We should have a broader definition of the traditional arts than what has been proposed by PricewaterhouseCoopers. Traditional arts means creative or interpretative expression drawing upon forms which have a continuous usage over time and includes, but is not limited to, instrumental music, song, dance, storytelling, recitation, dramatic forms and other forms in either language of the State but recognising the changing nature of such forms over time.

Most of the innovation in this area is coming from the traditional arts and all of the major explosions that have taken place in Irish culture in recent times have been represented on the world stage through "Riverdance" and "Lord of the Dance", which have had a major impact on the world. Confining traditional arts to a tight definition is not right. Traditional arts are organic. They continue to grow. They are being constantly updated. Most of the innovation and creativity is coming from the traditional arts area. Sinéad O'Connor, who is internationally renowned, produced a CD recently on old Irish ballads, "sean-nós", and that is a statement that artists are going back to our heritage to find expression.

It is important that we come up with a definition of traditional arts which is open-ended. If the Arts Council does not have a definition, how will it decide on applications for funding? It is important that we have a definition that encompasses everything PricewaterhouseCoopers recommended but which goes even further than that. It should also include the changes that could occur in the future.

Ms F. O’Malley

I am not sure we should include a definition of the traditional arts alone. That is not appropriate because, as has been mentioned previously, particularly when the Bill was going through the Dáil, it only sets the traditional arts up in opposition to other art forms. I will refer to two art forms in particular to explain whether it is relevant to define them in purely traditional arts. We have a very advanced literary tradition yet it is a contemporary one also because we have many contemporary writers who are well known, but where does this definition leave them? They do not come within the definition outlined by Deputy Deenihan. He made the point that his definition is not a restrictive one but it included the words "but is not limited to", which negates the listing of art forms.

The other example of a practice is sculpting, which is seen as a fairly traditional practice in that it has evolved for over hundreds of years. Where would the work of someone like Dorothy Cross, who might be described as a visual artist but who could equally be described as a contemporary sculptor, fit into this definition? It would be better to leave it out because in its absence somebody like Dorothy Cross and perhaps John Behan could be included because they are traditional practitioners.

Mr. O’Shea

The issue of defining the traditional arts arose in the context of our discussions with the various groups who gave evidence in that regard. I compliment Deputy Deenihan on making what the Minister has described as a good shot in terms of the definition but it leads us back to the futility of the initial definition. If we look at the definition of arts, which includes traditional and contemporary arts, and then look at Deputy Deenihan's definition, we find he has left out architecture and film. There is a fine tradition of architecture here.

Mr. Deenihan

They are contained in the definition of arts.

Mr. O’Shea

I take the point but it is not specifically in this definition and I take it this would be in the Bill as a separate definition to further define the definition that includes the term " contemporary and traditional". The film traditional, which is small but of quality, is not covered in this definition. Deputy O'Malley has dealt with the area of literature and Anglo-Irish literature is part of our traditional arts in the same way as many other art forms we discuss. In complimenting Deputy Deenihan, what I said earlier remains true in that it is simplistic to believe we can make a clear definition between what is traditional and what is contemporary. This is a further area which should be reconsidered by the parliamentary counsel in the context of an undertaking given by the Minister in the earlier part of the debate.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Tá sé deacair i gcónaí déileáil le míniú ar traditional arts. Sa chás seo rinne an Teachta Deenihan iarracht mhaith ach, mar a luadh cheana, níl scríbhneoireacht, dealbhóireacht, péintéireacht, ailtireacht nó a lán eile luaite aige. Molaim gur fiú an míniú a thabhairt ach an liosta sin, "instrumental music, song, dance, storytelling, recitation, dramatic forms, and other forms, in either language of the State" a fhágáil amach. B'fhearr an miniú a fhágáil mar, "which have continuous use over time and recognising the changing nature of such forms", agus é a fhágaíl chomh leathan agus is féidir. Má déantar liosta ariamh fágtar rud éigin as. Ach ba chóir go mbéadh míniú éigin ins an mBille ar na healaíona traidisiúnta.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I am concerned about proceeding to define traditional arts, although I repeat that, in so far as a definition can be arrived at, Deputy Deenihan has made a good attempt. The difficulty is that, in the Bill as drafted, the definition of arts refers to any creative or interpretative expression, whether traditional or contemporary, and moves on to state, in particular, the forms they include. Therefore, arts are defined as being a creative or interpretative expression whether traditional or contemporary.

I am taken with Deputy O'Malley's point that there is a difficulty in making a distinction between what is contemporary and what is traditional where that might be deemed to be necessary if one was to proceed to define the traditional arts in the legislation. Her argument is strong and difficult to refute. Her example seems to make sense and, in those circumstances, I am not amenable to accepting the definition of the traditional arts for the purposes of the legislation. However, I accept and acknowledge that, in so far as it can be achieved, Deputy Deenihan's definition is a good effort.

Mr. Deenihan

The definition is based on the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which has been referred to in most of the correspondence we received. I go further than that and encompass what Deputy O'Malley said about recognising the change in nature of such forms over time. She made the case for me in one way while disagreeing with me in another and I take her point. We cannot define traditional arts, nor will we insert it in legislation. The Arts Council will have to do that when it is gives grant aid to people.

We are not providing good leadership on this matter. The Minister made the point that there is a thin divide between what is contemporary and what is traditional and that there can be an overlap. I foresee this being a major difficulty in the future. When there is a standing committee on the arts with legislative powers and powers of recommendation, there will be a major difficulty when people apply to the Arts Council and there is no statutory definition of traditional arts in the Bill. The Arts Council will implement the Bill, but it will not be able to refer to such a definition. I can envisage rows starting immediately.

We have been very unfair to the Arts Council by fudging this issue. We are not prepared to define the traditional arts because it may be too restrictive in some ways. The definition I have given leaves traditional arts open to interpretation and to a change in circumstances over time. I will persist with this definition. No one is driving me to put this forward, although some of the people who gave us submissions would probably think the opposite. Such a definition lies at the core of the Bill. That is why we have received so many representations. It has created the division among members of the traditional arts fraternity who have a common objective in enhancing traditional arts and securing more money for them. However, we are not prepared to define the traditional arts in the Bill. I will be pressing the amendment.

Mr. O Shea

The longer this debate goes on, the clearer it becomes that it will not be easy, if it is possible at all, to define the traditional arts and the contemporary arts separately. One art form could be considered 30% traditional and 70% contemporary.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Cotton rich.

Mr. O’Shea

Is art divisible in a real sense? A good attempt has been made to define the traditional arts, but all the debate has done is to highlight the deficiency in the definition of the arts in the Bill. In other words, we are using two concepts that cannot be clearly defined and, because that is the case, the legislation is better off without them.

Chairman

How stands the amendment?

Mr. Deenihan

I will put it to a vote, as I feel strongly about this matter.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 2; Níl, 8.

Tá

• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• English, Damien.

Níl

• Breen, James.
• Collins, Michael.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelly, Peter.
• O’Donoghue, John.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• Wright, G. V.

SECTION 5.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 5, subsection (1), line 4, after "arts" to insert ", in both official languages of the State,".

This amendment relates to the original points I raised about the Irish language in the Bill. There is no reason this provision should not be inserted. It would not affect the intent of the Bill and would be inoffensive. I appeal to the Minister to accept it.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I am advised that the existing text already accommodates art forms and artists using both Irish and English or any other language. There is no necessity to accept the amendment. What the Deputy is seeking is catered for in the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 5, subsection (2), line 6, to delete "may" and substitute "shall".

In legal terms the word "shall" is stronger than the word "may". We have a debate on most Bills about the use of the words "may" and "shall". The word "shall" is a stronger statement of intent. The Bill would be stronger if the word "shall" was substituted for the word "may".

Mr. O’Donoghue

As we all know, the word "shall" constitutes a statutory imperative. It is important that the Minister has discretion about who he or she will or will not consult. In the circumstances I am not prepared to accept the amendment.

Mr. Deenihan

I will withdraw it. However, it is important from the point of view of co-ordination that the Minister should consult his colleagues in other Departments. It should be obligatory for him to do so. If he accepts amendment No. 12, it will overcome the problem of consultation. As he knows, the arts are not confined to his Department; rather they are spread across several Departments. We all accept - a number of Members referred to this on Second Stage - that responsibility for the arts does not rest solely with the Minister's Department. Almost every Department has some responsibility for them. The word "shall" would put the Minister in a stronger position if, for example, he had to give a direction to the Department of Education and Science. That is the difference between the words "may" and "shall". This issue does not apply to the Minister only but to all Ministers.

Mr. O’Donoghue

From my experience as a practising Deputy I know that my constituents have often correctly stated I should contact the Department of Education and Science about certain matters. However, I am correct in stating the replies were not as quick as the original order.

Mr. Deenihan

The Minister's admission seems to indicate there is little use for this section in the Bill. It seems to be irrelevant because it does not have any weight.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 5, lines 11 to 14, to delete subsection (3) and substitute the following:

"(3) In order to give effect to consultations under subsection (2) of this section, there shall be established a permanent inter-departmental review group comprising representatives of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, the Department of Education and Science, the Department of the Environment and Local Government, the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and the Department of Finance, as well as such other public bodies as the Minister may from time to time determine, whose function shall be to monitor the implementation and effectiveness of arts policy generally, subject to detailed terms of reference to be provided by the Minister, and who shall publish an annual report setting out their findings in relation thereto.”.

Some of the Minister's colleagues are anxious to move on.

Chairman

There is no rush.

Mr. Kelly

There is no rush. We will stay here for as long as is required. Like Deputy Deenihan, I hope to be here for 20 years.

Mr. Deenihan

Great.

Mr. O’Donoghue

My colleagues believe in the truth dropping slowly.

Mr. Deenihan

I am delighted that is the case. We will tell them if a vote is called.

Mr. Kelly

There is no rush at this committee.

Chairman

We should discuss amendmentNo. 12.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Deputy Kelly should have brought his teddy bear.

Mr. Deenihan

The people may not be as flippant about this Bill as some members of the committee. A large number of Departments are involved in and responsible for the arts such as the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Department of the Environment and Local Government, the Department of Health and Children, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Foreign Affairs. That is the reason I tabled the amendment.

Similar proposals were made in the past. The Richard report, published in January 1973 by Mr. James Richard, supported the role of the Arts Council which it stated should be regarded as the body responsible to the nation for the welfare of all the arts and should be in a position to take action accordingly. It was proposed that the Government should consider establishing a standing conference of Departments and State-sponsored bodies concerned with the arts.

It was also suggested that there could be general informal contact and regular informal meetings to discuss matters of mutual concern, exchange information and co-ordinate future action. It was further suggested that the standing conference should be chaired by a Parliamentary Secretary - a Minister of State - to provide the arts with the spokesperson they lacked. A Minister has been appointed since. Reference was also made to this issue in submissions analysed by Mr. Theo Dorgan. The bulk of the submissions envisaged a wide variety of roles for the Department, ranging from the establishment of a stand alone agency whose parent body would be the Department. Other references were also made to this issue. The Benson report also suggested such an arrangement.

The Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, the Department of Education and Science, the Department of the Environment and Local Government, the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and the Department of Finance would be included. The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources is important because of its responsibility for broadcasting, which would be part of a broader Bill. The Department of Finance is also important because of its relationship with the Office of Public Works.

The interdepartmental group would assist the Minister in his work and would be an effective way to pull all sections of the arts together. There is a need for it because we do not have a co-ordinating agency. It could address some of the issues to which we will refer such as education. It should not be dismissed. This point was made strongly in the analysis by Mr. Theo Dorgan.

Reference was made to the co-ordination of interdepartmental groups and State agencies. One can apply to different Departments for arts funding. The amendment would strengthen the Bill considerably. I would, therefore, like to hear the Minister's reaction to it.

Mr. Wall

There is much substance to the amendment. Too often, if we table parliamentary questions concerning bodies such as the Arts Council and Waterways Ireland, we are informed that the relevant Minister has no responsibility for such organisations. I presume Deputy Deenihan is seeking to ensure that an annual report would be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. On that basis, the Arts Council and other bodies could be the subject of regular debate in the House.

There is much to recommend the amendment. The section provides that the Minister's function "shall be to monitor the implementation and effectiveness of arts policy generally, subject to details of reference to be provided by the Minister". I would be concerned about that aspect of the legislation, particularly if the Arts Council is to operate in its own right. In the overall context, however, there is much merit in the amendment. I would like to hear what the Minister has to say about it because Members of the Oireachtas cannot obtain replies from Ministers to parliamentary questions which are tabled, perhaps following queries from constituents, concerning bodies such as the Arts Council of Waterways Ireland. In response, we are usually informed that the relevant organisation is responsible for such matters. The amendment seeks the provision of an annual report that would have to be laid before the Dáil and there is much merit in that proposal.

Ms F. O’Malley

There is a certain amount of merit in the proposal, although it is slightly dogmatic. I am worried about the interference, political or otherwise, that may arise from it. Would the Minister consider having a liaison group between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism? People generally, and children in particular, provide a huge following for sports because they experience it at school or in the local community. The arts should have a more central role in the education system and that is why I would welcome such a liaison group between both Departments. I would be interested to hear if the Minister would consider such a possibility.

Mr. O’Donoghue

There are long-established mechanisms whereby Ministers and Departments consult one another and many people would say that these are too formal. The reality, however, is that the channels of communication exist and remain open at all times. I do not believe that the kind of structure proposed by Deputy Deenihan would actually have any positive effect on the arts or that it would be workable in practice. In those circumstances, I am not disposed towards accepting the amendment.

I accept it is of crucial importance that the arts should have a more central role in the education process. I would hope, however, that there are other mechanisms of achieving that, rather than setting up a formalised structure which, in effect, would be a superstructure. The structures are already in place for consultation between Ministers and Departments.

Mr. Deenihan

Mr. Ciarán Benson has credibility in the arts world and has made a significant contribution to the development of the arts in this country. He made a strong point in submission No. 221, during the consultative process, stating that:

Ireland is relatively advanced in the way that the arts are already integrated into the remit of so many Government Departments. To a greater or lesser degree there is perhaps a role here for the Department in convening a cross-department discussion group, or some such body, with a view to harmonising and expanding their provision.

The same reference was made to the Department of Foreign Affair's role, for example, concerning the cultural relations committee. The point was implied in those discussions. It is not something I dreamed up myself; it has been suggested by a number of experts in the past who have examined the arts and saw the need for such a liaison group.

Deputy O'Malley mentioned the relationship between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. A liaison group was established previously by the Department in conjunction with the Arts Council concerning the provision of arts education. That has not worked out too well, but matters may be improving. From what I gather, however, it has not been too effective.

The Minister referred to section 5 and said that we should not put pressure on him to write to Ministers and other Departments. He has just said, however, that there are other ways of maintaining contact between Departments. Government Departments are dealing with such a volume of business and personnel are so busy that unless there is an obligation to deal with a matter such as this, it will not be done.

While I hope we will all be here in 20 years, we will only get one opportunity of dealing with this Bill. The Minister should reconsider the amendment, which would be very important for the arts. Will he clarify whether such reports currently exist? Do we receive annual reports from various Departments that have some connection with the arts? No such reports seem to be available. Such reports would focus the attention of decision-makers in various Departments regarding the importance of the arts.

I have not mentioned the Department of Health and Children, but one of the submissions referred to the role that art can play in health, and particularly in rehabilitating people who are ill. It has a significant role to play in different areas, yet there is no statutory body to pull all the strands together. This would not be another quango, it would have a solid basis.

Mr. O’Shea

I understand Deputy Deenihan's argument in which there is much merit. From the outset, the arm's length principle has operated with regard to the Arts Council. Under this proposal the Minister would have the right to nominate other public bodies to the interdepartmental group, which would have a role in monitoring the implementation and effectiveness of arts policy generally. My fear is that a review group could develop and perhaps other bodies would become involved in it. That could result in the development of political interference in the activities of the Arts Council. The chairperson, the director and other officials of the Arts Council appeared before a comparable committee of the last Dáil, as they did recently. That gives us a vehicle to deal with the generality of policy. What must be avoided at all costs is political interference in how the Arts Council conducts its day-to-day business, including to whom it provides or does not provide financing or grant aid. If the arms length principle is not fully protected, I see difficulties arising in terms of how the Arts Council can carry out its mandate.

I am a national school teacher and would like to see a greater interface develop between the Arts Council and national schools and the Department. That could take many different approaches, including courses. I would like the Arts Council to have a dynamic role in terms of its interface with the education system, particularly primary schools. I am talking about all aspects of the arts because there are many talented youngsters who are not provided with the milieu to develop their talents at a young age and the community is the loser.

This legislation deals with the interface with local authorities so, to an extent, the Department of the Environment and Local Government is already involved. I would like to see a mechanism to develop greater interface between parent Departments, schools and hospitals. There are initiatives in these areas which have been successful. The Healing Arts Trust operates in Waterford Regional Hospital and in other parts of the country. The principle is fine but the mechanism makes me fearful of the arms length principle coming under threat.

Chairman

What are the Minister's thoughts on that interaction? Maybe the Arts Councils should be obliged to interact with the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Health and Children each year and report back on what they are doing in this regard.

Mr. Deenihan

I was going to make that point. There is provision in the legislation where the Arts Council may form committees. If it could form this type of committee, it would satisfy me. I would like a process in place to ensure co-ordination and contact between Departments to further the cause of the arts.

I would like to come back to what Deputy O'Shea said. What I propose here has nothing to do with the arms length approach, although my next amendment deals with it. An important part of this Bill is to preserve the arms length approach taken at present. This amendment is about co-ordinating the various responses of the Departments and agencies which have a say in running, funding and supporting the arts. This debate has brought home to us that the Arts Council is only one agency involved in funding the arts. We could look at several other Departments with big resources which could be used positively in the arts.

Will the Minister give us a guarantee that this type of committee will be established within the remit of the Arts Councils? Perhaps he will not be able to give us a guarantee today but section 22 states that the Arts Council may establish committees to advise it on the performance of any of its functions and may determine the terms of reference and regulate the procedure of such a committee. Under that provision, could the Arts Council set up the type of advisory committee I propose?

Mr. O’Donoghue

It is important to realise the Minister is empowered under section 5(4) to oblige the council to prepare and submit to the Minister a plan. In addition, it is clear from section 7 that this is a significant step towards bringing coherence and consistency in what affects the arts across Departments and other agencies.

Section 9 specifies that the council, if it so wishes, may furnish advice or information to any Minister on any matter connected to its functions whenever the council considers it appropriate to do so. It may do the same for any public body and may co-operate with any public body on any matter connected to its functions whenever the council deems that to be appropriate.

The remit of the council is quite wide. Its power to give advice and information is clearly stated and I do not believe the establishment of the group Deputy Deenihan proposes would be of assistance. It is true that later on in the legislation, a power is given to the council to establish committees. It would be best if we discussed those powers when we come to them.

Mr. Deenihan

I will not labour the point but there is a significant difference in having a standing committee, advisory group or call it what you will in place and writing letters to people. In my experience of Government, where a cross-departmental committee is set out in statute, it is effective. I propose this to facilitate the arts rather than to try to threaten anybody. The Minister said we will discuss it when we come to section 22 but if it may be done under the legislation, I will keep an open mind. I would like the Arts Council to be obliged to appoint such a body. There is much potential for the arts across Departments into which we are not tapping. We are focusing on the Arts Council and that is why I said this should be an Arts Council Bill. The arts is so much broader than just the Arts Council and I am trying to bring together all these strands to facilitate the growth of the arts.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Section 7 is an attempt to ensure all the agencies, which are perhaps at liberty to do their own thing, adhere to Government policy. It is important to ensure everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet or, given the season, the same carol sheet in terms of the implementation of policy. If we are to discuss the question of a committee in this regard, it would be best to do so in the context of section 22, as Deputy Deenihan said. I understand it will be fully debated then.

Mr. Deenihan

The matter can be debated later under section 22. Perhaps the Minister will also refer it to the Arts Council. Between now and Report Stage I will make inquiries through the Minister's office to see if my proposal can be accommodated.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 and 16 to 20, inclusive, are related and all may be discussed together.

Mr. O’Shea

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 5, subsection (3), line 13, to delete "comply with" and substitute "have regard to".

We are concerned that section 5(3) gives power to the Minister. The purpose of the amendment is to provide that rather than having to comply with a direction under this section, the Arts Council would be expected to have regard to it. If the amendment was accepted the subsection would state: "The Minister may, in relation to performance by the Council of its functions (other than under section 24), give a direction in writing to the Council requiring it to have regard to such policies of the Minister or the Government as are specified in the direction." This issue is fundamental because of the concern that, as drafted, the legislation will give the Minister undue power to become directly involved in the activities of the Arts Council.

Amendment No. 18, in the name of Deputy Wall, seeks to delete the words "comply with" from section 5(6), line 22, and substitute the words "have regard to". Amendment No. 19, also in the name of Deputy Wall, seeks to insert a new subsection (7) in section 5, at page 5, after line 22, which states: "A direction under this section shall be expressed to be given pursuant to this section." This would mean that if the Minister issued a direction to the Arts Council under this section, it would have to be clearly stated as such. Amendment No. 20, also in the name of Deputy Wall, would require that directions under this section be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. It would also empower the Oireachtas to rescind them.

Mr. Deenihan

Amendment Nos. 14 to 17, inclusive, in my name, deal with the same issues raised by Deputy O'Shea. We are concerned with the arm's length principle. The Arts Act, 1973, gave independence to the Arts Council as a policy maker. By subtle means this Bill seeks to provide that the Minister will be the policy maker. Some argue that, as the provider of funding, the Minister should be able to call the tune. However, to preserve the arm's length principle it is important to change the language used in the Bill. In this context the use of the word "may" in section 5 is more appropriate than the current use of the word "shall".

The section will impose considerable pressure on the Arts Council and give the Minister great power to become involved with the activities of the council. A later amendment, in my name, deals with the issue of its independence. I ask the Minister to reconsider the language used in the Bill with a view to change while preserving the main purpose of the legislation. He should, therefore, accept the amendments.

Mr. O’Donoghue

The amendments seek various ways to limit the proposal in the Bill that the Minister be empowered to direct the Arts Council to comply with Government policies. There will be occasions when the Minister may consider it necessary in promoting the arts, as he is obliged to do under section 5(1), to require the council to comply with such policies. This should be lauded by Members of the Oireachtas. Too often those elected by the people are too quick to give away their powers. This lessens political accountability. The Minister cannot be expected to be politically accountable to the Oireachtas for a political agency while he does not have power to give it directions regarding Government policy.

We are all aware of the old saying, "The man who pays the piper calls the tune." In this instance taxpayers are footing the bill and their representatives are the Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is the function of the Minister to account for the expenditure of public moneys. In the circumstances, for the Minister to be properly accountable he must have some control over the agency concerned. The amendments seek to limit this.

There is no compulsion on the Minister to give directions to the Arts Council. It is an empowerment which may only be used to promote the arts, both inside and outside the State. I fail to see how the Bill could be enhanced by lessening the power of a member of the Executive elected by the people and accountable to them.

Mr. O’Shea

I largely accept the Minister's concerns about ministerial power and accountability. Section 5(3) requires the Arts Council "to comply with such policies of the Minister or the Government as are specified in the direction." The language is woolly. The Government could quickly decide on a policy and issue a direction. If the Arts Council was working to its arts plan, obviously there would be a programme for Government to back it up. The Minister of the day may decide, for whatever reason, that he or she wants to kick the Arts Council around because it is not taking the action which he or she might require. However, the looseness of the language used here does not make for good legislation and does not reinforce the arm's length principle. Indeed, it substantially weakens it. There is general agreement that the Arts Council should operate on that arm's length principle - away from political interference in its day to day operations - in the implementation of certain aspects of policy or in terms of the priorities, for example, that it has in regard to one area above another.

I firmly believe in this situation that it is in the interests of the community at large - in the context of what the arts contribute to the community - that we guard in every possible way the arm's length principle. This wording is loose. As I said earlier, the language is woolly. The Government could decide on the day what is the policy. The Minister could do it in a fit of pique, for example, and then a difficulty could arise. Amendment No. 13, which proposes to delete "comply with" and substitute "have regard to", is essential to the proper independent functioning of the Arts Council in the interests of all the people.

Mr. Deenihan

This is one of the important aspects of the Bill. I realise that the Minister did not frame the Bill as such, but there are a number of core issues at stake and, as far as I am concerned, we have come to one of them.

People involved in the arts are generally seen as free agents. They continuously question the system in various ways. Freedom of the arts is important to those involved in them. It is important for this country that we preserve that freedom and independence.

In the past, the arts community was targeted by repressive regimes in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and other countries. Where people wanted control, the first area they attacked was the arts, and writers in particular. This also happened during the invasion of Czechoslovakia. That is an example of the extreme view. The people involved in the arts were always respected because they were seen to be free to express opinions.

It is worth referring to some of the literature relating to the Arts Council itself. The view of a director of the Arts Council in 1980 is worth repeating. He stated that since it was established in 1951, the council has regarded its independence as one of its great strengths and that to be able to act as a buffer between Government and the arts community was one of the principal reasons for its establishment. He added that the council believed it should jealously guard this independence while welcoming the increased interest in the arts shown by elected representatives of all parties.

One of the great events which epitomised the independence of the Arts Council occurred in November 1975, when Bord na Móna sought planning permission to demolish old Georgian buildings. The board was supported by the then Minister for Local Government, Deputy James Tully. At the time Colm Ó Briain was a director of the Arts Council, which took a major stand. It took the matter to court and won and Bord na Móna decided to sell off the building to a bank and the building was preserved. That evening, the Arts Council made a statement congratulating the Minister and everybody else involved.

It is also worth referring to one section of the correspondence we received from the Arts Council. The council stated that the reaffirmation of the arm's length principle, as regards grants, in the Bill is welcome, but the fact that this autonomy is only guaranteed to the council in the performance of its function as a source of funding for the arts gives cause for concern. The correspondence further stated that the arts plan celebrates the separation of the State's support from State control of the arts and that the Arts Council would ask the Minister to reflect on the value to the State and to civil society of a fully independent council across the range of functions, whether of an advisory, analytical, advocacy or policy-making kind. It also stated that the council's great strength is the confidence reposed in it by Government to provide independent policy advice and to take action as it sees fit without fear or favour. It further stated that in the past the arts and the wider public have been well served by this principle. The latter point is worth repeating.

In the various submissions that were made following the emergence of the consultative document - this comes across clearly in the Theo Dorgan report - it is clear nobody wants the Department to enter into a specific relationship with individual artists. This is most widely expressed in submissions calling for the maintenance of the arm's length relationship with the Arts Council, which is often predicated on guarding the individual artist and, to a lesser extent, arts organisations against politically motivated proscription.

The poet Paula Meehan expresses this point of view when she states, in submission No. 179, that no artist wants to feel they are a politician's pet and no politician, in her or his right mind, would want an artist as a pet. Most gravely, Ciarán Benson pointed to the horrific record in the 20th century of politicians subordinating art and artists for dark ends.

That makes the point quite clearly. Even going back to a politician to whom the Minister was very close——

Chairman

There is no need to refer extensively to the submissions, which have been given to us and to the Minister.

Mr. Deenihan

It makes the point. To return to Mr. Haughey, the submission to which I refer stated that there must be complete artistic freedom and the Government's part must be confined to creating the conditions within which arts can flourish. The aim is to foster, not to control. This point is extremely important.

The Arts Council would not have gone to the trouble of advising us along these lines if it was not concerned, particularly about section 6 which I want to delete. This is a core issue of principle in the Bill. It is important that we quote from the various submissions that were made to us as regards the preparation of this Bill. We are here today because of all those submissions.

Chairman

The submissions have been circulated. The Deputy may refer to them, but we do not need to hear extended quotes. I am giving the Deputy a great deal of latitude.

Mr. Deenihan

No, the Chairman is not doing so.

Chairman

I am. I am giving him a great deal of longitude as well.

Mr. Deenihan

I have been at debates in committee previously.

Chairman

I have also attended a few debates.

Mr. Deenihan

I have been in the Minister's position and spent three days debating a Bill on one occasion. If somebody wants to make a statement, which is relevant and supports their point, it is important to let them do so. That is what democracy is all about. That is the freedom that we are discussing.

Chairman

I am just seeking a balance.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I have no difficulty whatsoever with Deputy Deenihan making his point and I am sure the Chairman and Members have no difficulty with it either. If Genghis Khan arrived in here in a chariot with Shakespeare himself by his side, I would not change this legislation and I will tell the committee why that is the case.

Mr. Deenihan

That is what I said about three months ago to a crowd in the Writers' Centre.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I will tell the Deputy why I would not change this part of the legislation. It is clear from section 5(1) that the Minister's function is to promote the arts, both inside and outside the State. It is inconceivable in the context of such a statutory prerogative that he or she would subsequently proceed to issue directions to the council which would require it to comply with policies which were at variance with that statutory imperative. It is not possible for the Minister to do this. It must be clear that there is no question of the Minister being obliged to give directions to the council. It is an empowerment for him or her to do so.

I will give an example. I have listened over a prolonged period to representatives interested in this area who have made constructive criticisms, as have members of the committee. Sometimes the impression comes across that they are not satisfied with the manner in which the Arts Council treats the traditional arts sector. I do not say whether they are right or wrong, but these representations are continually made. If the point should be reached where this is established as being true, is anyone present telling me that the Minister, a member of the Executive and elected to the Dáil, should not have the right on behalf of the people to say to the council that it is not doing anything for the traditional arts and that that must change? There is nothing wrong with this. That applies not just to the traditional arts but also to other areas of the arts. I do not say this conflict would ever arise, nor am I making a criticism. I am making it clear that the buck stops with the Government which will intervene where necessary. The people will have the opportunity of deciding whether the Government was right or wrong to do so.

Mr. Deenihan

I called together all those involved in the arts in the Writers' Centre on 17 September and indicated that, while I did not think there would be much change in the Bill, I wanted to hear their views. It has transpired that I was right. This is a fundamental principle in the Bill about which I am glad that the Minister, in all fairness, has been honest.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I have been totally and absolutely honest.

Mr. Deenihan

However, it represents a major departure from the 1973 Act in which the arm's length approach was copperfastened.

Mr. O’Donoghue

There was no Minister with responsibility for the arts at the Cabinet table in 1973.

Mr. Deenihan

The first time such a Minister was in place was from 1983 to 1987.

The Minister said there would be a new relationship between the Minister with responsibility for this area and the Arts Council once the Bill was enacted. There is no doubt about this and the Minister confirmed it.

Mr. O’Donoghue

No, I did not say there would be a new relationship. I said there would be the possibility for the Minister to contact the Arts Council regarding certain policies and that I was strongly and 100% of the view that it was appropriate that he or she should have that power.

Mr. Deenihan

That is fine, but it is important that the Minister clarifies the matter. This is a major departure in principle from previous arts Acts and it is important that the Minister clarifies that it may not be used in an improper manner by a future Minister. I can certainly see possible conflict in the future in this area because the Minister has copperfastened this principle in the Bill. He has been very clear that it is now open to him, whereas it was not previously, to interfere or whatever he likes to call it with the Arts Council in future. That is a major departure and one of the most significant aspects of the Bill. It is important to point this out.

Mr. O’Shea

We are making law that will apply to future Ministers, not just the Minister present. I am sure a scenario will arise where an arts policy from the Arts Council is agreed to by Government and funding put in place only for pressure to come from a certain sector. As a result, the Minister with responsibility for this area will intervene. That is improper. For example, there is a strong view about funding by the council of the international festival of light opera in Waterford. The council does not provide funding for it because it is outside its policy. Is the Minister telling me that, if a Minister from Waterford with his portfolio were to notice that the council did not fund the international festival of light opera in Waterford and ordered it to do so, that would be a proper way for an officeholder to act towards a State agency which has thrived on the basis of the arm's length principle?

The Minister is wrong in this regard. Numerous checks and balances can be operated when dealing with the Arts Council, but to intervene by issuing a directive with which it must comply strikes me as giving power to the Minister that is improper and could undermine the effective running of the council in the interests of the people.

Mr. O’Donoghue

That is misleading.

Mr. Deenihan

It is important.

Mr. O’Donoghue

It is misleading, although not intentionally on the part of Deputy O'Shea.

Mr. Deenihan

It is important that clarification is sought.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Yes, it is. Under section 24, which deals with funding for the arts, it is stated categorically that, in so far as funding is concerned, the council shall be independent in its functions. What Deputy O'Shea said was incorrect.

I was referring to policies. It is clear from the legislation that this is what is at issue. I repeat that it is not only appropriate but also desirable that the Government should have the power, where required, to contact the Arts Council about its policies. There is nothing wrong with this. It should be remembered that this is not a dictatorship. No absolutist regime is in place. The people make the decisions by electing the public representatives. The Minister is accountable to the Dáil and the Dáil to the people.

Mr. O’Shea

I must come back on that because the Minister is misleading, not me. We are dealing with policy. In the case of Waterford, the policy does not allow a grant payment to be made to the festival. Under this provision in the Bill, the Minister could direct the Arts Council to change its policy on grants. That would be an improper intervention. The Minister could instruct the council to change its policy in this instance to enable funding to go to a pet project.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Under section 24, the Arts Council can say "Yes" or "No" to a project. Irrespective of how policy is changed, the council will still be independent in the exercise of its funding functions. Therefore, no matter how much the Minister liked the project in Waterford, it would not be possible for him or her to ensure the council funded it.

Chairman

While the debate has been useful, I must ask Deputy O'Shea and Deputy Wall how stands amendment No. 13.

Mr. O’Shea

It is withdrawn to be reintroduced on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 14 not moved.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 5, subsection (4), line 17, after "arts" to insert ", on any aspect of the arts,".

This is a technical, clarifying amendment which broadens the definition. The Bill would then include a requirement of the council to prepare and submit to the Minister a plan specifying strategies or measures it proposes to adopt in relation to the arts or any aspect of the arts during the period to which the plan relates.

It provides an opportunity here which need not just relate to the arts but which may refer to something that may be influenced by the arts. It adds to the definition of what we are trying to achieve and would give greater scope to the council to prepare a different submission.

Chairman

Is it "on" or "or" any aspect of the arts?

Mr. Deenihan

It is "on". Perhaps the Minister could address this.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I appreciate this amendment arises from a desire to have more flexibility available to the Minister of the day. We put it to the parliamentary draftsman in good faith but he was totally against us inserting this on the grounds that the existing provision covers it adequately. In that respect he felt the amendment was superfluous and he rigidly opposed any change.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 16 to 20, inclusive, not moved.

Section 5 agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I move amendment No. 21:

In page 5, subsection (1), lines 23 and 24, to delete "31 of the Local Government act, 1994" and substitute "67 of the Local Government Act, 2001".

This is a technical amendment which takes account of the fact that the Local Government Act has been revised.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 22:

In page 5, between lines 27 and 28, to insert the following subsection:

"(2) Local authorities, comprehending areas covered by the regulations made defining Limistéirí na Gaeltachta will engage Údarás na Gaeltachta in the preparation and implementation of such plans, in so far as they are relevant to the Irish language.".

It is very important from the point of view of the Irish language that where local authorities are asked to prepare plans, they consult Údarás na Gaeltachta in those areas. The Minister will be aware that in the Údarás areas of Kerry there are flourishing arts communities and it would be important for the Irish language that the arts officer of a local authority area communicate with Údarás na Gaeltachta on the preparation and implementation of plans. I see no reason for this not to be accepted.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I have given some consideration to this, which was also suggested to me by an interested group. On balance it is a matter for the local authorities to engage with whatever bodies are appropriate in the preparation and implementation of plans. I am not so sure it would be helpful to enforce this rigidly in legislation. Local authorities in areas with Gaeltachtaí know it is of crucial importance to assist the language in whatever way they can and invariably they tend to do so. This seeks to ensure that local authorities would be obliged to engage with Údarás na Gaeltachta on the preparation and implementation of plans. If I thought it was necessary to do this to ensure local authorities would have the best interests of the Gaeltachtaí at heart I would do so but I am satisfied that such authorities have the best interests of the Gaeltachtaí at heart and that in general terms they try to assist them rather than adversely affect them.

Mr. Deenihan

Those who sought this amendment were sincere about it and that is why it was put down. On the broader issue of local authorities, if we are to penetrate all parts of the country one way to do so would be to fund local authorities. It is one thing to get them to draw up a plan and implement it but it is another thing to provide the necessary resources. The Minister and I are both familiar with County Kerry, which has a very energetic arts officer. Her budget of €172,000 must pay herself, her administrative staff and the costs of running her whole arts programme. Her arts plan for 2001 to 2006 is a fine presentation with very good ideas. Her budget for 2002 was supposed to be €213,000 but she must try to put the plan in place with €172,000, so she is down already. Next year the budget is supposed to be €223,000 but the way the estimates are going she will probably be cut back. The Arts Act, 1973, compels local authorities to provide grants for small events and last year in Kerry €11,270 was provided for this; there were 120 applications for those funds and 88 were approved. Dividing €11,270 by 88 will tell one what each got. I was delighted to deputise for the Minister at the Tralee Arts Group——

Chairman

We are going on a tour of Kerry but this is about the Irish language.

Mr. Deenihan

We are talking about the section, which we can do on Committee Stage. That group got €100 and it has 35 artists between the ages 18 and 75.

Regarding arts and local authorities, I welcome the standing committee on local authority arts, which is a positive aspect of the Bill. I welcome the compulsion that authorities will have to draw up and implement plans but if they are not funded then the measure is aspirational. It is always good to cite examples and one refers to one's own county because that is where one sees these things in action. The Minister could not attend a function because he was out of the country so I went to the Tralee Arts Group show. It only received €100 but some of the paintings are in widespread use all over the town. That shows how under-funded local authority arts measures are; all Members would agree with that. Local authorities are strapped for cash for arts measures and that funding can only come through the Arts Council; the council will have to get more money in order to do that.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Ba mhaith liom labhairt ar an leasú agus faoin gceist eile a ardaíodh chomh maith.

Ní fheicim aon fhadhb maidir le glacadh leis an leasú seo. Dhéanfadh sé cinnte de go mbeidh na húdaráis áitiúla sásta déileáil leis na limistéir atá ag Údarás na Gaeltachta, toisc go bhfuil an oiread sin ealaíontóirí ann agus go bhfuil saol na healaíne ins na ceantracha Gaeltachta go beo faoi láthair. Ba mhaith linn go leanfaidh sé mar sin so níor mhaith go mbeadh dhá phlean difriúil ag teacht amach, ceann ó Údarás na Gaeltachta agus ceann eile ó na comhairlí condae éagsúla sna ceanntracha sin.

Tá ceist ann faoi airgead a chur ar fáil do rialtas áitiúil a luaigh an Teachta Deenihan. Is gá leasú a chur sa Bhille le cinntiú go bhfuil ar an Rialtas, má tá sé chun dualgas breise a thabhairt do chomhairlí condae, tuilleadh airgead a thabhairt chun a ndualgas a chomhlíonadh. Tá a fhios ag gach duine cé chomh beag is atá an méid airgid atá ag na comhairlí condae. Ní bheidh siad sásta airgead a chur ar leataobh do na healaíona muna mbeidh airgead ar fáil acu do thithíocht. Is ceart a rá sa Bhille go mbeidh an tAire ag dul i dteagbháil leis an Aire Airgeadais agus na comhairlí condae chun an t-airgead seo a chur ar fáil.

Mr. English

The Minister said he would have no difficulty with the amendment because this is already happening in local authorities. Local authorities can change and there seems to be a general mood that this could be the last legislation dealing with the arts for 20 or 30 years, which I hope will not be the case. Should the amendment not be included in case the mood in local authorities change or the way they do business changes, which happens a lot?

There is a small Gaeltacht in County Meath and when we try to make decisions it is easy to forget about a provision because it is so small. At least if a provision is in writing it will not be forgotten as easily.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil na comhairlí ag déanamh a ndícheall ar son na n-ealaíon, go háirithe chun iad a chur chun cinn sna Gaeltachtaí. Caithfidh gach comhairle airgead a chur ar fáil do na healaíona agus tá suim ag comhairleoirí ar fud na tíre iontu. I am convinced that councils throughout the country are doing their best for the arts and I have been surprised by the amount of work they are doing. I am satisfied that the interests of the arts are well served by councillors throughout the country who, in the final analysis, must make funding available for the arts. I ask them to do their best in the context of their budget, but I accept they operate under constraints. In fairness, they have been doing their best and I will assist them where possible.

Mr. Deenihan

I will withdraw the amendment pending discussion with the people who are pushing it. They may be satisfied with the Minister's explanation. If it is included, I do not think it will change the Bill dramatically. However, I will have that option on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 23:

In page 5, subsection (2), line 28, to delete "may" and substitute "shall".

I have already referred to funding for local authorities. If we are serious about promoting local authority arts, a standing committee, which will be very important, is being established. The members of the committee will have to feel they have a purpose. There will now be much greater pressure on the Arts Council to provide funding for local authorities. The standing committee will sit once a month to consider the funding councils provide for local authority arts. I do not doubt that a shopping list will be submitted to the Arts Council.

While the committee will not have the power to recommend measures, it must have some purpose and it will exert pressure in other ways. There will be a major lack of funding because local authorities, such as that in Clare, are very progressive in regard to the arts and what has been provided in Ennis is a credit to them. I wish other local authorities were as proactive and positive towards the arts. There is a great expression of support towards the arts in Kerry, but when it comes to funding we are sadly lacking.

The Minister should compel local authorities to provide the financial assistance necessary in respect of activities and projects. This would strengthen section 6 considerably. If we are to have a flourishing arts community and roll out the arts throughout the country, the local authority vehicle will be very important. It will take a great deal of pressure off the Arts Council because much of the disquiet among Comhaltas and other groups was that the council is remote from them. Many counties, particularly those on the western seaboard, are remote from Dublin and the people who live there consider the Arts Council as being remote also. These people know their local authorities, county offices and arts officer. If that officer is provided with proper funding at local and national level, it will take a lot of pressure for funding off the Arts Council in the future. Much of the disquiet which has been manifested here will not exist and, therefore, I ask the Minister to accept the amendment.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Section 6(2) states that a local authority may provide such financial or other assistance as it considers appropriate. It might be the case that a local authority might consider that nothing would be appropriate or that 5% or 10% might be appropriate. When framing the amendment, Deputy Deenihan knew it would not be possible for me to place an obligation on local authorities to put in place specific and mandatory support for the arts. Therefore, he drafted the amendment in what I would describe as ambiguous terms. The facts of the matter are——

Mr. Deenihan

There is very little difference between "may" and "shall". There is not much ambiguity there.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Deputy Deenihan had to be that ambiguous because the amendment does not mean anything. The reason it does not mean anything is because local authorities could decide that nothing is appropriate, that €5 is appropriate or that €100,000 is appropriate.

Mr. Deenihan

That is what they are doing at present.

Mr. O’Donoghue

If that is what they are doing, what is the point in including the measure in the Bill.

Mr. Deenihan

They would have to do that.

Mr. O’Donoghue

All they would have to do is provide what is appropriate, which is what they are currently doing.

Mr. Deenihan

The language would be totally different.

Mr. O’Donoghue

The language can be changed. The Deputy knows I cannot put a financial obligation on local authorities unless I want to suffer summary execution.

Mr. Deenihan

It was the Minister who referred to the difference between "may" and "shall". I am just quoting what he -

Mr. O’Donoghue

Yes, but the Deputy applied a scissors to the end of the sentence.

Mr. Kelly

No one should interfere with the discretion of the local authorities.

Mr. O’Shea

The Minister says the subsection would be useless if the word "may" were replaced by "shall". It is not ultra vires for local authorities to provide money. If Deputy Deenihan’s version would be useless surely the existing version is even more useless.

Mr. O’Donoghue

If we take out "as it considers appropriate" and make it mandatory for a local authority to provide financial assistance for the arts, the amendment makes sense. However, it would not be realistic to place such a specific and mandatory financial obligation on local authorities.

Mr. Deenihan

I take the Minister's advice and I will submit the amendment he suggests on Report Stage. I have no doubt he will accept it.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I did not say that. When Deputy Deenihan was constructing the amendment he knew very well that I could not accept it.

Mr. Deenihan

I have seen the word, "shall" used in much legislation.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I do not consider it appropriate.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 6, as amended, agreed to.

Section 7 agreed to.

SECTION 8.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 are related and may be discussed together.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I move amendment No. 24:

In page 6, subsection (1), line 3, to delete " by section 4 of the Act of 1951” and substitute “of the Act of 1951 by section 4”.

These are simply drafting amendments to remove some ambiguities which may have existed in the Bill when published.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I move amendment No. 25:

In page 6, subsection (2), line 6, to delete "by section 4 of the Act of 1951” and substitute“of the Act of 1951 and the Act of 1973 by section 4”.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed, "That section 8, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The section refers to the council. Since the title of the organisation is in Irish why is it referred to as the council throughout the text of the Bill? Either An Chomhairle or An Chomhairle Ealaíon should be used.

Mr. O’Donoghue

The Deputy has raised an interesting point. I will raise the question with the parliamentary counsel and see if we can bring some clarity to it. I do not see why it should not be called An Chomhairle Ealaíon.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 9.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 26 and 27 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 26:

In page 6, subsection (1), lines 28 to 30, to delete paragraph (d).

I return to the arms length approach. The Minister has taken it upon himself to request information from the council. Paragraphs (d) and (e) list as functions of the council to advise the Minister in relation to the performance of any of his or her functions under this Act and to assist the Minister in the performance of his or her functions under the Act and in the implementation of Government policies and objectives in relation to the arts, when so requested by the Minister.

This is very dangerous. The Arts Council is to become another arm of Government. During a general election campaign, for example, the council could become another propaganda arm of the Minister. The Minister could add the council to the large number of groups which would support him in an election campaign.

These paragraphs should be deleted if we are have a consistent arms length approach. They are open to manipulation by a Minister. They politicise the Arts Council, they are dangerous and sinister and should not be in the Bill. The Minister may be concerned with policy but to ask the Arts Council to help him in the performance of his functions would be a considerable expansion of the Minister's influence and would go against the principle of the legislation.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Deputy Deenihan seems to be under the impression that the Arts Council will become a declarable assistant under the Supreme Court judgment for the purpose of re-electing the Minister. That is not the case. There are enough groups included under that judgment without complicating the matter further. I do not intend to complicate matters further, nor is there any need to do so.

This section empowers the Minister to take the advice of the council and one of the council's general functions is to advise the Minister in relation to the performance of any of his or her functions under the Act and to assist the Minister in the performance of his or her functions under the Act and in the implementation of Government policy and objectives in relation to the arts when so requested by the Minister in each instance. Who is to assist the Minister in relation to the question of the performance of his or her functions under the Act or in the implementation of Government policy and objectives if not the Arts Council? One would hardly consult the Ku Klux Klan or a witches' coven. I cannot think of a more appropriate body than the Arts Council. It is clearly an expert resource which is available to the Government and it would be incongruous to have the council if it were not in a position to give advice and assistance to the Government when that would be considered appropriate or necessary.

Deputy Deenihan's amendments would close off that resource to the Minister and I regret that I cannot accept them.

Mr. Deenihan

I am amazed to hear the Minister say the Arts Council is the only adviser to whom he can resort. Surely he has staff in his Department who advise him continuously on arts policy.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I did not use the word "only".

Mr. Deenihan

The Minister asked to whom he would resort. He can resort to his officials.

Mr. O’Donoghue

No.

Mr. Deenihan

Yes, he is on record. The Minister has a section in his Department which deals with the arts. I would prefer if the Department had remained in the original shape it had before the last change of Government when it had a better focus. Nevertheless, the Minister, like all Ministers, has personal advisers. He can get all the advice he needs from the considerable expertise within his Department. He can also take advice from other advisers on the arts. How it might be abused rather than used is a concern. This provision could mean that the Arts Council would do all types of work, political or otherwise, on a Minister's behalf. The policy for a county or community could have political repercussions at election time. The Minister more or less confirmed this when he stated that he sees this as an important tool for him in the future. I see it as taking independence away from the Arts Council and it is contrary to what was said in the council's correspondence in regard to its freedom. That is why I propose these amendments. If the Minister wanted to be magnanimous and to assure the Arts Council of non-political involvement he should accept them.

Mr. O’Shea

I see where Deputy Deenihan is coming from in regard to his amendments to delete these two sections. These sections evoke fear in me in regard to the "arms length" principle because the council could be "sucked in" when advice and assistance is sought. In section 9 (e) the words used are "assist the Minister". Does that assistance imply resources or money from the Arts Council budget? What exactly does assistance mean in that context?

Mr. O’Donoghue

The Minister would seek the assistance of the Arts Council in the performance of his or her functions in regard to the implementation of Government policies and objectives in relation to the arts. The Arts Council would be obliged to provide that assistance. There is nothing wrong with that. All this section does is bring the Arts Council into the heart of Government in terms of the implementation of Government policies and objectives in relation to the arts and in terms of the Minister's functions and performance. Far from interfering with the independence of the Arts Council it does the opposite because it is the Arts Council that is coming to the assistance of the Government. Under section 24 the question of funding is a matter for the Arts Council and it is independent in the exercise of that function.

Mr. O’Shea

Does the word "assistance" have a resource implication?

Mr. O’Donoghue

I do not know what kind of resource implication the Deputy has in mind. Resource to me means money. The distribution of money is a matter for the Arts Council and it is independent in the exercise of that function.

Mr. Deenihan

I have known the Minister for a long time and have served on a local authority with him. He is political and I know how he thinks on this Bill. He sees it in a political way so let the Arts Council be warned. I regret he cannot accept these amendments but because we can re-enter amendments on Report Stage, I will withdraw them now.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I do not believe the Deputy has the gift of telepathy.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 27 not moved.

Mr. Deenihan

I move amendment No. 28:

In page 6, subsection (1), after line 46, to insert the following:

"(i) furnish advice or information to the Department of Education and Science on matters relating to arts education including, but not limited to, primary, second-level and third-level education.".

I will propose a standing committee on education later and will put forward reasons for that then. A number of Members referred to the importance of education both on Second Stage and during hearings in recent weeks. We have the opportunity now to do something about the education deficit, the responsibility for the arts on the curriculum and the relationship between the Arts Council and the Department of Education and Science. This amendment could be used to influence the Department of Education and Science on matters relating to arts education. Arts education is for life. This is important and I urge the Minister to include it in the Bill. It would not distort it and would not make a major imposition on the Arts Council. There would be no financial implication. It would provide an opportunity for the council to advise the Department of Education and Science in regard to its input into arts education. This is critical if we are to further the arts and to create the environment we need to develop the arts across the country.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Under section 9 (1) (f) there is a power for the Arts Council to furnish advice or information to any Minister, including the Minister for Education and Science, in regard to any matter connected with its functions whenever the council considers it appropriate or is requested to do so. Nonetheless, it is true that the arts need to be made more central to the education process. I am interested in doing that and in Deputy Deenihan’s suggestion. It seems to me that it is already contained in section 9 (1) (f) but his proposal might be utilised in order to emphasise the importance of the arts in education. I propose to bring his wording to the parliamentary draftsmen to see if the centrality of the arts in education could be emphasised in a manner appropriate to the section.

Mr. Deenihan

I thank the Minister for realising the merit in this amendment and that it can make a contribution towards the effectiveness of the Bill.

Mr. O’Donoghue

We will take it back to the draftsmen as it is worth exploring.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 9 agreed to.

Section 10 agreed to.

Chairman

We have the option now of adjourning this debate and reconvening at 3 p.m. tomorrow.

Mr. O’Donoghue

We will have to check that.

Chairman

We can either choose to start with the anti-doping convention or start with this but the anti-doping convention must be finished here by tomorrow.

Mr. O’Donoghue

My address on the anti-doping convention is very short.

Mr. Deenihan

We should facilitate the Minister on the anti-doping convention. There are fundamental issues to do with the Arts Bill and there is a much broader audience and interest than we believed. It would be no harm to leave that until after Christmas. There may be accommodation reached over Christmas between the different parties in the traditional arts group. It is up to the members but I suggest we return in early January to complete it. I will be here tomorrow and it will not inconvenience me.

Mr. English

I suggest that we agree a finishing time.

Chairman

The problem about putting a closing time on it is that we might get into a good run tomorrow and we might find that we are doing all right.

Mr. English

It is very difficult to plan or do anything if we re-arrange meetings.

Chairman

That is life in committee.

Mr. English

I know that.

Mr. Deenihan

What about having time tomorrow?

Chairman

We will convene at 3 p.m. tomorrow and we will discuss the matter then.

Debate adjourned.