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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 7 Dec 2004

Vote 35 — Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism (Supplementary).

We must deal with two Supplementary Estimates referred to the committee by the Dáil. Therefore, our time is constrained. I welcome the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, and his officials who are here to discuss the Supplementary Estimate in respect of Vote 35 — Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

I thank the committee for giving me this opportunity to elaborate on the details of the Supplementary Estimate in respect of my Department's Vote for 2004. The Supplementary Estimate being sought comprises two elements, namely, an additional allocation of €20 million under subhead C.1 which provides for grants for sports bodies and the provision of sports and recreational facilities, and the reallocation of €2 million in savings achieved elsewhere on the Vote this year to the Arts Council in response to a proposal I received from it last month to support its initiative to restore the financial position of the Abbey Theatre. As the subhead in question is a grant-in-aid subhead, the additional funding requires the specific approval of the Oireachtas.

I will deal first with the additional allocation of €20 million under subhead C.1. On 30 September I announced that the Government had agreed to provide a further and final grant of €40 million for the GAA towards the cost of the redevelopment of Croke Park, to be paid in two instalments in 2004 and 2005. I see this as tangible recognition by the Government of the unique contribution to sport which has been made during the years by the GAA and which it continues to make. Uniquely, the magnificent achievements of the association are rooted in the values of voluntarism and community development so evident throughout the island. It has fostered healthy outdoor activity for young people and contributed to the development of leadership skills in communities, enabling them to become vibrant centres of sports and community activity.

The original intention was to phase the payment to the GAA over two years. However, in the light of the improvement in the public finances which has continued throughout this year, I am pleased to say I was able to secure the agreement of the Minister for Finance to release all of the €40 million in the current financial year. Some €20 million will come from savings on other projects being funded via the sports capital programme attributable to a slower than anticipated draw-down of funding allocated to them, with the balance of €20 million to be provided via a Supplementary Estimate. This will bring the Exchequer contribution towards the estimated €265 million cost of the Croke Park redevelopment project to €110 million.

As we approach the end of 2004, it is worth recalling that investment decisions taken by the Government this year will transform the sports infrastructure of the country. At the beginning of the year the Government agreed to support the redevelopment of the Lansdowne Road stadium, a project which is being undertaken as a joint venture by the IRFU and the FAI. Exchequer funding of €191 million has been committed to a project which will go a long way towards meeting the national and international requirements of rugby and soccer. The completion of Croke Park, together with the commencement of work at Lansdowne Road, will at last place Irish field sports on an acceptable footing in regard to the standard of sports facilities available in other similarly developed economies. Together, these two projects will bring stadium facilities in Ireland into the 21st century.

I wish to deal with the second element of the Supplementary Estimate — the transfer of €2 million savings within the Vote to subhead D9. The Arts Council's allocation for 2004 amounts to €52.5 million all of which has been committed for some months by the council to support artists, arts organisations and arts venues and events around the country on a genuinely arms-length basis. Deputies will be aware of the particular financial difficulties being experienced by the Abbey Theatre in this its centenary year. At the invitation of the Abbey, the Arts Council arranged an urgent evaluation of the current circumstances of the theatre carried out by a respected international arts consultant. Having considered the consultant's report, the council identified a need for additional funding for the Abbey of the order of €2 million. Accordingly, the council sought support from me to enable it provide this additional support. I was happy to do so.

The council believes that this financial assistance in conjunction with action being taken by the board of the Abbey Theatre to tackle the theatre's underlying deficit should ease current difficulties and provide a solid platform for the further development of the theatre as it faces into its second century.

I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the committee.

It is good that money that has not been drawn down can be redistributed within the Department and not lost back to the Exchequer as has happened on other occasions.

How are we to proceed? Is it by way of statements or questions?

Statements can be incorporated in questions.

I welcome the Minister to the committee. I welcome also both announcements which are positive and will be welcomed by the GAA and the Abbey Theatre. The allocation to the GAA is a recognition of what the organisation has achieved since it was founded in 1884. More than any other organisation, the GAA has done more for the national spirit and national pride and at local level to foster community development and co-operation and it has given parishes a sense of pride and community. People in other countries marvel at the success of the GAA, an amateur organisation in such a small country, and what it has achieved throughout the length and breadth of the country. It has transcended all boundaries of class and creed. Everyone would join in welcoming this contribution by the Minister.

Apparently, the GAA will still owe some debt in Croke Park but it will be manageable. Given that the Government has made such a major financial commitment the GAA will be able to concentrate on the development of the game. I acknowledge the recent initiative by the Dublin County Board on the major financial investment being made in the game over the next five years. That the game is not strong in the city does not help the overall strength of the game throughout the country. It is important that where one third of the population resides, the game would be well organised and reach into all communities.

The GAA, like all other organisations, has to compete for athletes and become more professional in its approach in the areas of coaching and training and provide backup for athletes. The FAI and the IRFU are rolling out their games to all parts of the country. There is much competition between the organisations but it is good if they are taking games into schools across the country and competing with each other because youngsters will have a chance to compete and get professional training.

The professional approach adopted by GAA teams at all levels is encouraging. I am involved with my local club and I marvel at the number of teams that warm up an hour before the game. In the past it was a case of going out on the field and knocking the ball around, now the athletes are warming up properly and after the game they cool down. This reflects the professional attitude that is permeating from the top down to all facets of the GAA.

I welcome the funding for Lansdowne Road. I remember a few years ago when the Abbotstown project was strong I was one of the few who stuck my neck out and said it would be the Lansdowne Road alternative. On Private Members' time in the Dáil I outlined the reason I thought it should happen. Whereas the Abbotstown project may have had some merit, the Lansdowne Road solution is the right one for the sake of sport. In addition, Lansdowne Road is very much part of the infrastructure of the city and has a culture unique to itself. It is the oldest rugby stadium in the world and it would be a pity to lose the atmosphere and culture that is Lansdowne Road. It was the right decision. Hopefully, there will be no hiccups and work will start in 2006.

The Minister is always at pains to say the contribution to the GAA is non-conditional and I agree with him. If one tries to pressurise the GAA into making a decision to open Croke Park it may react the other way, as it did when we tendered for the European Cup. When some pressure was applied it held a press conference denouncing any pressure to open up its pitch or to be part of that proposal. Hopefully, because of the generous gesture by taxpayers, when it comes to deciding whether to open Croke Park, the GAA and its delegates will be led by the president, whom I compliment on being very clear on the future use of the stadium. He repeated his view here when asked by members of the committee. Whenever asked he says he is in favour of the opening up of Croke Park.

I hope the delegates at congress in April will follow his leadership in what will be another major step forward for the GAA. It will boost the GAA's popularity and gain respect through all the sporting fraternity. There is a crossover between those who support Gaelic, soccer and rugby. It is not as if there are different groups supporting different games. Everybody will benefit and, hopefully, this time next year we will look forward to playing rugby and soccer home games in Croke Park when Lansdowne Road is closed. In doing so we will show off one of the finest stadia in the world to the world. It is making a statement for amateurism and volunteerism that a voluntary organisation can produce such a fine stadium, which is recognised as one of the finest in the world.

On the issue of the Abbey Theatre, is the €2 million contribution unconditional? I read an article in one of the newspapers last week that suggested €1 million would go towards paying off the debt, which is approximately €2.5 million and that the other €1 million would go towards the restructuring which has to happen if the Abbey is to have a real future. Will the Minister confirm the actual debt at the Abbey Theatre? The Arts Council report and the Bonner report recommend a major restructuring but if there are redundancies, that will cost money. That may be a way of using some of that money and €1 million was mentioned in the article. Perhaps we can hear the Minister's views on that matter. Will it be up to the board of directors of the Abbey Theatre? Will it decide what to do with the money or will the Minister direct it that a certain amount is for restructuring and another is for clearing the deficit? This allocation is a major vote of confidence in the Abbey and it would be unfortunate if, in its centenary year, it ended the year with a deficit of €2.5 million despite the good efforts at fund-raising made by the directors. I understand they collected approximately €3 million, which was a great achievement, but if the Abbey ends its centenary year with a deficit, that would mar those achievements. For that reason, this contribution is welcome and is a major vote of confidence in the theatre.

While the Minister is present I want to raise two issues going forward. This money is a contribution to the Abbey going forward and the hope is that with it the Abbey will emerge stronger, reach out more and become more of a national symbol. Also, with the new theatre, it is important the Abbey would be seen as a dynamic force in society. Are there any conditions attached to this funding as regards future governance of the Abbey, for example? Obviously there would be a role for Government in the future governance of the Abbey but on the issue of management of the Abbey going forward, are there any preconditions that there would be a change in the governance and management of the Abbey going forward? Perhaps the Minister would respond to that.

It is important that the Arts Council works closely with the Abbey in the future. The fact that the Abbey does not tour all parts of the country has resulted in a major loss to several different areas. It is not reaching out sufficiently to those other areas because of its funding difficulty. It is now very expensive to take a performance out of Dublin. Perhaps the Minister would express a wish, in terms of future direction, to see the Abbey tour places like Kerry, Galway, Cork, Limerick and any area which has a good theatre, such as Letterkenny. It is important that as the Abbey goes forward with this boost from the taxpayer that it looks to broadening its programme and reaching out more into the regions than was the case previously. If the Abbey is seen to be in the ownership of the nation, it must reach out to all communities and not just be the property of Dublin alone and entertain Dublin audiences. I look forward to the Minister's response to those questions on the Abbey.

I too welcome the Minister and his officials. When there is good news, it is always welcome to have the Minister present to discuss matters such as these.

The finalisation of the refurbishment of Croke Park, both from the perspective of Government support and from the GAA, is welcome. It is welcome also that the stadium will be completed within the timeframe allocated by the GAA. The grey area, where some people said the Government owed €38 million etc., has been dealt with and the news is all positive in respect of the completion of Croke Park.

The issue of the opening up of Croke Park to other sports arose during Question Time last week. That issue is on everyone's lips in terms of the development at Lansdowne Road, but I remain of the view that it is within the remit of the GAA to open up Croke Park to other sports. I would argue strongly that the GAA should be in a position, regardless of the decision made at congress, to allocate dates to both the FAI and the IRFU in respect of international matches during the closure of Lansdowne Road. That is not asking much of the GAA in terms of ensuring that international matches, which are of such value to the Exchequer, are not lost. It would be ridiculous if games like that were held outside the country. As Deputy Deenihan said, I hope common sense prevails, especially in regard to the opening of Croke Park.

Another concern which I have raised a number of times is the slowdown in the drawing down of funds. Will the Minister update us on the reason for that? I was always concerned about that issue which I also raised on Question Time. I am not being critical of the staff in terms of the lottery funding because they do their best to try to facilitate that but some applications must be more adventurous than they should be in terms of matching funding if something like this is happening. Perhaps there is a need to rethink some aspects of the lottery funding. Everyone knows the value of the lottery funding, including clubs etc. I hope we see a change in the regulations and that in addition to funding for concrete and mortar, so to speak, funding can be allocated also to ensure the availability of personnel, especially professional personnel, to augment the wonderful buildings that have been put in place so far. The youth of the country would benefit enormously from that.

The allocation to the Abbey is welcome. We were all concerned when we heard talk of redundancies etc. but now in its centenary year, as in the centenary year of any association or group, this cash injection will make a major difference. The Abbey is the cornerstone of the arts in Ireland and is of vital importance to theatre in Ireland generally in terms of giving a focus. If we meet people in any part of the world, they talk about visiting the Abbey Theatre and seeing the players perform. It is welcome that the grey area I referred to earlier in terms of redundancies and the business framework of the Abbey will now be addressed. The Minister may give us more detail, as requested by Deputy Deenihan, on how he sees the Abbey Theatre going forward and the part the Arts Council will play in that regard. I welcome both decisions today and I fully support them.

I join my colleagues in welcoming the Minister and his officials. I will be brief because much of what I wanted to say has been said more than once.

I welcome the additional Vote allocation for the Abbey Theatre, particularly in its centenary year, but will the Minister give his views on the long-term future of the Abbey because the measures being taken through this Vote are short-term?

I agree with Deputy Deenihan's comments about touring. As a Dublin Deputy, I see the necessity for the Abbey, as the national theatre, to tour the entire country and not only the far-flung regions. Committee members are aware of the number of local theatres springing up in all areas of the country, some of which are not far from Dublin city. With the change in people's social habits, particularly with regard to driving, it is important that a touring schedule of the Abbey would incorporate any theatre or venue in the country that is capable of hosting a viable crowd to make the visit of the national theatre commercially viable. I am also anxious to hear an update on the current situation concerning the relocation of the theatre building.

With regard to the provision of additional funding or bringing forward the funding for Croke Park, I heartily endorse the action being taken. I also endorse the views expressed by my two colleagues. It was interesting to hear such eminent and senior members of the GAA as Deputy Deenihan and Deputy Wall comment in that manner about the future use of Croke Park. It is not for me to say what uses Croke Park should have in the future but I commend my colleagues for their comments on that issue.

While I welcome the funding, it is important that the phenomenal organisation that is the GAA continues to receive funding on an ongoing basis from the State and not just for Croke Park. I congratulate the Minister and his officials on the recently announced funding of the Dublin County Board development initiative. By any standard, it is a huge venture for a sporting organisation. As we have said time and again in this committee, we want to foster sporting participation among youngsters of both genders and in whatever games they wish to play. The initiative taken by the Dublin County Board, with the support of the Government, and, indeed, other sporting initiatives will be greatly advanced by the funding for Croke Park. Money is needed not only in the GAA but also in other sporting bodies. I have no doubt that, as has been its tradition over its 120 year history, any money provided to the GAA will be used efficiently and economically. I look forward to the rewards being reaped on the playing fields of Dublin in the not too distant future, however disappointing that might be for some my colleagues.

I appreciate the Deputy's optimism.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I concur with the previous speakers. It occurred to me as I listened them that they must have seen the advertisement in the weekend's newspapers about the new round of lottery funding. Deputy Deenihan and others were probably getting their word in first.

I am delighted that Croke Park and the GAA have got €110 million from the Department. That figure should be made known to the public. People do not realise the amount of money Croke Park has received. It well deserves it because it is a magnificent stadium. It is one of the best I have seen and I have visited a few with the chairperson. We should be proud of it. There was criticism last year after the two All-Irelands that all the tickets were the same price, regardless of whether they were for good seats or the seats way up in the clouds but that is a matter for the GAA.

I agree wholeheartedly with Deputy Wall, especially given the development of Lansdowne Road. I also congratulate the Minister on that; I was glad the decision was taken. It would be a shame if we could not play our matches in Dublin. Although Limerick and Munster are the home of rugby it is unfortunate that we do not have a large enough stadium to cater for the local support. We are in the same predicament. I put it to a senior member of the GAA last year when Munster was playing in Limerick. The stadium can only accommodate 12,000 people and we asked to use the local GAA stadium but the request was turned down. The GAA has made up its mind on that issue. I do not know if it will change its attitude. A couple of years ago a motion to change it was only defeated in congress by a percentage of a vote and, unfortunately, the person who voted that way was from County Limerick.

I congratulate the Minister on the €2 million he has allocated to the Abbey Theatre. There are many small theatres throughout the country that are barely existing. I am sure the Minister is aware of this. The people running these theatres do so on a voluntary basis. There is a small theatre in County Limerick and the people involved with it continuously make representations to me seeking support for it. They are doing a magnificent job. They would be delighted if the Minister could do something for them at some stage.

The Minister and the Department have done a magnificent job with the lottery funding. I have not sent in any form but——

They have not been sent out yet.

I have not even had an inquiry about the fund. In places such as west Kerry, west Limerick and west Clare, a magnificent job has been done with the money spent on these pitches. The only difficulty people encounter with the regulations is that the local contribution, except in a disadvantaged area, must be 30%. They find it difficult to make the 30% contribution. It is something the Minister should examine. I would appreciate it if it could be changed.

I thank the Minister and his officials. They must be extremely modest because the public seems to be unaware of the money that is being given for the development of both Lansdowne Stadium for the IRFU and the FAI and Croke Park.

I will not repeat what my colleagues have said. I have been a member of the GAA for years and have represented my club and my county at Munster council level. It is a shame the GAA will not open its gates to other codes. A time will come when it will have to do so. I agree with Deputy Collins that the matching funding requirement for local clubs when they apply for national lottery funding can be severe. I am delighted that the Minister is being advised by a good County Clare man, Mr. Hough. Is there any way the requirement for matching funding can be modified for small communities? When these communities are developing facilities such as a community centre or a GAA pitch, the matching funding can be an awful burden. At times it prevents them drawing down lottery funding. Will the Minister ease that requirement?

Most of the points I wished to make have been raised. However, there are two issues I wish to mention. Part of the Abbotstown development was to be a stadium. The other part, which is often ignored, was to be a campus of sporting excellence. Has that project been abandoned at this stage or is there a possibility that there will be some development this year or next year?

It is a matter of concern that €20 million in national lottery grants was not drawn down. I accept that in some areas it is difficult for smaller organisations to secure the local contribution. Is that the main reason this €20 million was not drawn down? Is it primarily because the local community was unable to come up with the additional money? If that is the overriding reason, some way should be found to enable these organisations to avail of funds and provide the required facilities.

Everyone has stated a view on opening up Croke Park to other sporting codes but at the end of the day it is a decision for the GAA. There are hopeful signs that we will not be put in the position of having to hold international football matches outside the country. In any case, the provision of €40 million to the GAA means the association will not be totally preoccupied with fund raising as could have been the case if this money was not available

I will try to deal with the questions as best I can. The Arts Council was asked for its view on the Abbey Theatre and recommended that the Department should make €2 million available to the theatre. I acceded to that request and was pleased to do so in view of the importance of our national theatre. Any conditions that might be attached would have to be attached by the Arts Council. As everybody knows, there is an arm's length principle involved where the Minister is concerned with regard to funding disbursements by the Arts Council. I do not think that any conditions have yet been set down but there are obviously concerns about governance, an issue that will have to be addressed. It is not possible for any Minister to say that the Government will continue to fund repeated deficits. I am not laying the blame for that at anyone's door but, in future, there will have to be the kind of governance that will ensure that this does not happen, or at least that the risk of it happening is minimised to the greatest possible extent. That is not meant as any criticism of the board of the Abbey Theatre whose members do sterling work on behalf of the State.

As regards the question of funding Croke Park, I thank members of the committee for their kind comments. The €20 million was saved from the sports capital programme. That was because there was not as big a drawdown on the sports capital fund this year as in 2003. Last year, the drawdown was in excess of €60 million whereas this year it was just over €30 million. It is difficult to predict from year to year what the drawdown will be. It is one of the problems we have in the Department. There is an accumulated deficit or debt of about €130 million so if everybody was to come in on the same day, to say the least, there would be a rush on the bank and the vault would not sustain a run like that. In any event, it is unlikely to happen. I was pleased that we were able to make the €20 million available to the GAA from those savings.

Several members of the committee referred to the question of Croke Park being opened up for other sports and I welcome their statements. I have also welcomed the earlier statement by the president of the GAA who is to be complimented on his public stance on the issue. As has been pointed out, however, it is best if the GAA makes its own decision on that matter in due course and no doubt it will do so.

Deputy Deenihan inquired about the Abbey Theatre's debt. The accumulated deficit at the end of 2004 was €2.6 million, which includes the adjustment. In so far as we possibly can, we are trying to ensure in future that the Abbey will not run up such debts.

Deputy O'Shea raised the question of the sports campus. He is quite correct in stating that the whole concept has been lost in the rush to welcome the stadium. It is very much part of the Government's plans, however, and I intend to bring forward the initial report of Campus Stadium Ireland to the Government in the near future with a view to seeking approval for the first phase of the campus. It is really the second phase because the swimming complex is already in place and is hugely successful. I hope the Government will approve the proposals I intend to bring forward, although it is something that cannot be guaranteed. The proposals from Campus Stadium Ireland are impressive. It would be a wonderful addition to the existing sporting infrastructure.

Deputy Collins wondered about the funding of small theatres. Having travelled throughout the country to inspect such facilities, I fully agree with him that many small theatres could benefit from modest funding to greatly improve their position. That is particularly true in Limerick city where I have visited the Belltable arts centre. I am seeking the permission of the Minister for Finance next year to procure some form of limited expenditure to improve small theatres throughout the country. In the meantime, the Arts Council is in a position to fund small theatres and does so. I am referring specifically to capital expenditure — and I think this is what Deputy Collins means — that might be required for small theatres which find it difficult to obtain the necessary funding to carry out capital improvements. I will try to get the Minister for Finance to agree to some expenditure on those theatres in the coming year. Much worthwhile work could be done for a small amount of money.

Since the Abbey Theatre is a national institution we would all like to see it touring throughout the country. However, such activity would have to be part of an overall viable strategy, which everyone is seeking for and on behalf of the Abbey.

This is my third appearance before the select committee this year. I wish to express my appreciation to the Chairman and to the other members of the committee for the constructive and committed manner in which the committee has dealt with arts, sports and tourism issues during the year. I wish all the committee's members and the staff who support the committee so well my best wishes for Christmas and the new year. No doubt we will be here again in the coming year to discuss issues of importance relating to arts, sport and tourism.

I echo those sentiments to the Minister and his officials. No doubt, with the call for sports lottery applications, some people's Christmas dinner will have an interesting tinge again this year.

The Minister has challenged us to spend that money. He does not want to have a €20 million surplus next year to give around.

That is the message. People make all sorts of promises when they get it but it does not happen. I thank everyone concerned with this work. The representatives of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism are now excused. We will continue with the next Department when the representatives are available.

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