Select Committee on Business, Enterprise and Innovation debate -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2017

Vote 32 - Business, Enterprise and Innovation (Revised)

Chairman

I ask members to ensure their mobile telephones are switched off for the duration of the meeting, as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when on silent mode.

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the further Revised Estimates for 2017 for the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, referred by the Dáil to this committee on 17 October. We have received apologies from Deputies Quinlivan, Niall Collins and Donnelly.

I welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for trade, employment, business, the EU digital single market and data protection, Deputy Pat Breen, and his officials. I thank them for the briefing material provided to the committee.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister of State to make a presentation to the committee.

Minister of State at the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Pat Breen)

I will go through this as quickly as possible. It is a technical point. The further Revised Estimate of the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation's Vote arises due to the recent transfer of employment rights functions to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. The functional changes came into effect at the beginning of September. I understand that my officials have provided the committee with a short briefing note that sets out what is involved. I will list the main points.

Fourteen staff have moved from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation with the functions moving to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. With regard to the financial consequences, the transfer of the functions sees full-time pay and non-pay costs totalling just over €1.5 million gross moving from my Department's Vote to that of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. Essentially, the €1.5 million is broken down into pay of €1.05 million for the 14 staff transferring and fees associated with the low pay commissioners, and €496,000 for non-pay. These moneys, through the further Revised Estimates, are reduced from the 2017 Revised Estimates allocation for the Vote of my Department. Obviously, there is a consequential increase in the Vote for the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, which also requires a further Revised Estimate to be considered and approved by the Oireachtas.

The subheads affected in the Vote of the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation all pertain to expenditure under subhead C relating to regulation. The relevant subheads are C1, the pay budget, C2, the non-pay budget, C13, the Low Pay Commission, and C16, legal costs. With regard to the functions that have transferred, there is a suite of employment rights legislation - 12 Acts in all - in respect of which responsibility now rests with the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty. The committee has been provided with a list of the 12 Acts. I will not list them all here but members will be most familiar with the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 and the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Acts 1973 to 2005, the Protection of Employment Acts 1977 to 2014, the Payment of Wages Act 1991, the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 and the Protection of Employment (Exceptional Collective Redundancies and Related Matters) Act 2007. The legislative base also includes responsibility for the Low Pay Commission and its secretariat. Operational or policy matters that fall under any of the listed items of legislation are now the direct responsibility of the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Doherty.

With regard to EU and international arrangements, a small number of employment policy functions have moved, and these include the lead role in the EU ESCO Council, lead responsibility for the treaty-based employment committee, EMCO, and for Ireland's response input on the EU pillar of social rights. While these policy responsibilities have moved to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, responsibility for the employment rights enforcement element and related funding still lies with my Department, the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation. This is in respect of the Workplace Relations Commission and the Labour Court. I just had a meeting with Ms Oonagh Buckley from the Workplace Relations Commission and Mr. Kevin Duffy, former chairman of the Labour Court. The Workplace Relations Commission is 50 years in existence, for which I congratulate it. It is just one year since it moved to its new offices at Lansdowne House. It was wonderful to meet the staff there. We also have a small number of legacy cases - 80 or so - which are with the Employment Appeals Tribunal, which no longer accepts claims.

I will be happy to take questions from any member or the Chairman. The further Revised Estimate is fairly straightforward. It is technical.

Chairman

Let me clarify the reason there is a transfer of moneys and relevant subheads. The moneys were allocated already this year. They were allocated to the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation but, because of the changeover, 14 members of staff are transferring to the new Department, the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. It is not new money that had to be found.

Deputy Pat Breen

No.

Chairman

There is just a transfer of money that was already allocated to one Department.

Deputy Pat Breen

It is money that was already allocated to my Department. There was a partial transfer of responsibilities when the Taoiseach, Deputy Leo Varadkar, set up his new Government. Some responsibilities were transferred to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. As I stated, 14 members of staff were transferred there. That is why the pay costs and non-pay costs have come into play. The €1.5 million has been transferred to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, obviously to make that Department more effective. As I stated, it has responsibility for policy. We have responsibility for enforcement, the Labour Court and the Workplace Relations Commission. The 14 staff who were transferred included principal officers, assistant principal officers, higher executive officers, administrative officers, an executive officer and clerical officers.

The full schedule of employment rights Acts has been transferred also. That is in the committee’s schedule.

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Pat Breen

I refer to SI 361. A lot of employment legislation has been transferred but we are still responsible for enforcement, the Labour Court, the Workplace Relations Commission and the International Labour Organization.

Chairman

I welcome the clarification. The Minister of State, having been present last Thursday, will note that our committee dealt with zero-hour contracts, banded-hour contracts and the if-and-when arrangements. We produced quite a body of work on these issues. I now understand responsibility has transferred to the other committee, under Deputy John Curran. We wish that committee all the best with this area. I thank the Minister of State for the considerable respect he showed to the committee last Thursday. We did a lot of work on this and made 21 recommendations. The Minister of State was open to considering them. On behalf of the committee, I thank him very much for that.

Deputy Tom Neville

I second what the Chairman said. The presentation of the Minister of State has been quite adequate in explaining everything. I have absolutely no problems.

Chairman

It clarifies many points. There was a little bit of confusion over who dealt with what. The statement clarifies the matter. This committee is very happy, therefore.

Deputy Pat Breen

I thank the Chairman and other members, particularly Deputy Tom Neville, who is always here. I thank him for his involvement. He has a particular interest in the area of employment and well-being in this area.

I welcome the work being done by the committee not just on legislation, but in respect of various other areas it covers. The committee members visited Waterford last week. It is good that committees travel to see exactly what is happening on the ground in respect of the workings of my Department. We value the work the committee does, particularly the work on the legislation in question. As I stated before, the legislation was flawed but we will have our legislation ready before Christmas. I will welcome the committee’s scrutiny of that and its work thereon. The legislation will be fair and balanced and it will take on board the needs of the employers but also the employees, who are important also. One has to have balance to ensure we can sustain jobs in this country.

We connect with and work a lot with both employers and employees' groups to make sure we can put good legislation in place. Good legislation takes time. The idea for this came from the University of Limerick study. The group in question was independent. Obviously, we have to take on board the concerns of both employers and employees. This is why we want to come up with balanced legislation that suits both. This includes prohibiting zero-hour contracts in most circumstances, ensuring employees are better informed of the nature of employment arrangements, and ensuring that workers on low-hour contracts who constantly work more hours each week than are provided for in their contracts are placed in a band that better reflects the reality of the hours they work.

We will also strengthen the anti-victimisation provisions for workers. All of these measures will be included in the Bill which I look forward to debating when it is brought before the House and the committee.

Chairman

That is welcome because the committee recognised that there were issues which needed to be dealt with. We look forward to seeing and debating the legislation. I do not think the committee will be engaged in the pre-legislative scrutiny process. I think the Bill will be dealt with by the Joint Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection.

Deputy Pat Breen

The pre-legislative scrutiny process will be engaged in at the Joint Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection.

Chairman

We will get to debate the Bill on Committee Stage.

Deputy Pat Breen

I think I might be involved as employment and social protection matters are part of my remit.

Chairman

The committee is doing a body of work on the cost of doing business. We will have another session next week which we have invited a lot of the stakeholders in that area to attend. Recently huge emphasis was put on the cost of insurance, but we also want to look at the other costs and will produce a document in that regard in the new year. We will send a copy to the Minister of State.

Deputy Pat Breen

I thank the Chairman. I hope both the Tánaiste and I will be in a position in the very near future to see the level of unemployment fall below the magic 6% figure. A rate of 5.8% or 5.9% would be a sign of the success of the policies of the Government, not to mention the role played by this committee in the work it has been doing. There are many challenges, particularly in the context of Brexit, which I am sure the committee has discussed, but there are opportunities, too, of which we should always try to avail.

Chairman

We prepared a document on Brexit which was our first body of work. We have produced three or four documents, while six Bills have passed through the committee in the past year and a half. We hear a lot about the "do-nothing Dáil", but quite a lot of work goes on at the committees, about which people forget.

Deputy Tom Neville

I agree.

Deputy Pat Breen

I am aware of that because I chaired a committee for five years. I know about the work the Chairman does and commend those members who attend all the time. It is important that they be recognised because they play an important role and without their attendance the committee could not function.

Chairman

Before we adjourn, I notify members that a Supplementary Estimate for Vote 32 has been referred to the select committee which must report back to the Dáil no later than 6 December. The committee is liaising with the Department on a date for the meeting.