SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate

Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006: Committee Stage.

Chairman

This meeting has been convened for the purpose of the consideration of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006. I welcome the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and his officials. I suggest we continue until consideration of the Bill has been completed. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Broughan

I wish to speak on the process of legislating as exemplified by this Bill. There is a scenario which occurs in the Departments of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and Justice, Equality and Law Reform more than in any other, whereby a Bill is introduced to Dáil Éireann, there is a lengthy discussion, the Opposition seeks to examine the issues to be addressed and we receive approximately 100 pages of amendments 14 or 15 hours before the debate on Committee Stage commences.

Two sections of the Bill have been completely recast. I admit that a number of the issues raised have been addressed, but why could the sections which have been recast not have been included in the Bill as recently published? The use of this method puts the Opposition under incredible pressure. Last night we frantically examined the two new provisions, in particular, the recasting of Parts 3 and 4, to determine the legal position on amendments at that late stage. This is not the way to conduct the business of Dáil Éireann. It is grossly unfair to introduce legislation within these parameters as it gives the Opposition no chance to ensure there is adequate invigilation. It is legislating on the hoof.

Deputy Durkan and I constantly asked about the Bill on the Order of Business. We also asked about the NORA Bill. We are blue in the face asking day after day about legislation in hand in the Department. In spite of this, we still find ourselves in a situation where we are effectively given two or three hours to consider what amounts to a significant recasting of the Bill. This has happened previously in the case of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and in respect of fisheries legislation in the case of this Department. It is not the way to do business. On that basis, I recommend that the Bill be reintroduced on Second Stage.

As every householder or small business with an electricity supply or gas installation knows, this is perhaps one of the most important legislative measures to be dealt with by the House. The Chairman, in particular, appreciates this fact. However, on the Thursday of the second last week of the Dáil session we were told that on Report Stage there would be a motion to recommit the Bill. Given the Minister's recent announcement regarding the one year delay in the introduction of the single energy market, by which time he will be out of office, this is a mess. As the Labour Party believes this is not the way to conduct the business of Parliament, we urge reintroduction of the Bill.

Mr. Durkan

I am surprised and disappointed that significant amendments affecting the structure of the Bill were dumped on the Opposition yesterday morning, a number of which addressed issues that needed to be dealt with. We are given 24 hours and have no time to make amendments to the amendments. This reminds me of a team manager introducing six substitutes, including a blood substitute, with four minutes to go and knowing that extra time would be played. I object to passing legislation in this manner. The Opposition does not have advisers, officials in Departments or researchers, while Deputies must undertake research, read the Bill and mark the sections to be amended. I object to this abuse of the system by several Ministers, and one in particular, in the past few years. It is no longer a joke.

Is it in order to sit at this time? Procedures laid down by the House are not being adhered to and we should not be sitting. If we do sit in committee, we will have to reintroduce the Bill in the House and repeat the procedure again. Are we wasting our time? The Minister has other things to do — he could make announcements or open schools or other edifices. The Chairman would also prefer to do such things. I resent the lack of time for the Opposition to absorb and consider the amendments tabled. I seek to have the Bill reintroduced to the House on Second Stage because the current procedure is incorrect.

A very important area, home heating conservation and health and safety practices, has not been dealt with, despite the amendments tabled. Nothing in the Bill addresses this area. Electricity and gas are covered but not home heating.

Chairman

That section will be introduced on Report Stage.

Mr. Durkan

I intend to introduce a new section to address this subject on Report Stage. In one recent case a conventional central heating system exploded because it was not correctly installed. That serves to illustrate the need for this section.

Ms F. O’Malley

We will be here for some time. Can we agree to discuss only the Bill, to be brief and to conclude the business quickly? This will produce a better Bill in the end. Does the committee agree to this?

Chairman

Members have raised serious concerns regarding the time available to consider the amendments. I ask the Minister to respond.

Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. N. Dempsey)

Question put: "That the sitting be suspended."

The Committee divided: Tá, 3; Níl, 6.

Tá

Broughan, Thomas P.
Durkan, Bernard J.
Ferris, Martin.

Níl

Callanan, Joe.
Dempsey, Noel.
Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Malley, Fiona.

Question declared lost.

SECTION 1.

Mr. Durkan

It would make a nonsense of the rigorous procedures by which legislation is approved in the Oireachtas if each section had to be revisited before it could commence. There are good reasons for putting specific parts of Acts before the Houses but the Deputy's amendment would require that every provision be submitted.

Mr. Durkan

There were occasions when different parts of Acts were commenced on separate occasions, with the result that a void was created in the legislative programme. I am concerned this Bill could give rise to a similar situation but, if matters come before the House, there is an opportunity for discussion. For example, a Minister could decide to enact part of the legislation and leave the remainder to sit idle. Can the Minister not see fit to make some provision in order that consensus can be reached on the introduction of the legislation?

Mr. N. Dempsey

I understand the point being made by the Deputy. However, the sections which will be commenced immediately after enactment will have been approved by the Oireachtas. Commencement orders apply to certain parts of the legislation. The Deputy is correct that circumstances can change. I spent a lot of time working on the Child Care Act 1991, yet some sections of that have not yet been commenced. Acts can be overtaken by other legislation or challenged by court actions. Provision is already made in the Bill for what the Deputy is trying to achieve. He is referring to legislation which has not yet been commenced but that would not require an order to be put before the Oireachtas. Any issues in that regard can be raised by Deputies by way of parliamentary questions or motions.

Mr. Durkan

I suggest an amendment be brought forward on Report Stage to identify the sections which may not enter force on the commencement date and to facilitate a debate in the Dáil on such sections.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn

Section 1, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 3, after line 24, to insert the following:

"‘Minister' means the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.".

This is a technical amendment which defines how the term "Minister" is used in the Bill.

Mr. Broughan

Mr. Broughan

I commend Deputy Durkan for proposing this series of amendments. He has done the Oireachtas a service in seeking to create ministerial responsibility. When we wrote our amendments I reviewed the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 which is the mother Act of much of this material. The Minister is inserting a new section 9B, with section 9, on the functions of the commission. Under the 1999 Act, the buck stops with the Minister. According to section 9(1):

The Commission shall have the following functions, namely—

(a) to publish, pursuant to a policy direction or directions of the Minister. . .

(c) to advise the Minister on the impact of electricity generation in relation to sustainability, and international agreements. . .

(d) following the public consultation . . . and taking account of matters raised in the public consultation process [I presume that could include pricing] . . . subject to the consent of the Minister, establishing a system of trading in electricity . . .

(e) to advise the Minister on the development of the electricity industry.

Section 9(2) reads: "Notwithstanding the generality of subsection (1) (a), a policy direction of the Minister shall include”. Therefore, in virtually every paragraph of section 9 of the 1999 Act the Minister is named as the final port of call. In the new section 9B, as Deputy Durkan says, the Minister seems to remove himself from that situation.

Ministerial responsibility is good for Government. One summer when I was returning from Killarney on the train I got the message that electricity or gas prices had increased by 25% or 30% and was asked for a comment. It was nothing to do with the Minister who was not available. That terrible organisation, CER, and the international climate were fully responsible for it. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources was sadly commenting as a bystander on the terrible increases in energy prices in which he had no role. The model for that in the past ten years is the Taoiseach. He is the classic hurler on the ditch. Events happen in various Departments and while he thinks they are terrible, he sees them as a bystander. In section 9B the Minister seems to be changing the drift of the 1999 Act, the structure and regulation of CER and giving CER final responsibility for the all-island market. This means that next year, when we put questions to the Minister with responsibility for energy, if there is one, a raft of questions about the all-island market will have to be ruled out and may not be discussed in this House. In the recent questions approximately eight of my questions were ruled out, including one or two of the most interesting questions, because the Ceann Comhairle said the Minister had no responsibility for them. It is a retrograde step.

I do not want to digress from the subject matter of the amendments, but I can think of other areas where in the past few years Ministers have refused to answer questions in the House and claimed that they had no responsibility to the House, but when an emergency arose the Minister had to come before the House and apprise the House of what had happened and no legislative changes were necessary.

If the Minister had been accountable to the House prior to that and available to answer questions in the House, it would have obviated the need for anybody to raise questions subsequent to the events. By virtue of researching and answering questions, civil servants in a Department would be much more au fait with what was likely to happen in certain circumstances than is the case if the Minister simply says he or she has no responsibility to the House.

I accept that members of my party have advocated the setting up of a commissioner or a quango whenever anything has arisen. I have never agreed with such thinking. We have been elected to this Parliament and in so far as can, we should be accountable. However, after a number of years in government there is a tendency for Ministers to become accustomed to the smooth running of a Department and to steer away from anything aggravating, such as answering backbenchers when they become obstreperous. By neglecting to address issues that should be addressed, the Minister concedes ground within the Department to somebody else that nobody knows or will ever know. We have a Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, and if the Chairman wants to try to influence its policy he will soon find out how difficult it is to do so. We can read about it afterwards in the newspapers.

The grid, the ESB and relevant issues dealt with in this Bill are fundamental to the safe and continuous delivery of energy. It would be a retrograde step to concede any ground in that area that takes away from the importance of the role of the Minister. It would be a step for which a very high price will be paid in the future. I appeal to the Minister, therefore, to incorporate the general thrust of these amendments into the Bill. I do not want to go on all day about these, but I feel strongly about them. This is a fundamental issue. If we do not register our views on this subject here, we should not be in Parliament. We might as well go into the House for the Order of Business, wish the Ceann Comhairle a good morning and then go home, since the Minister has no responsibility to the House for anything about which we might want to ask and Parliament will have become irrelevant.

There is always a tendency among Ministers to keep backbenchers, if not happy, at least quiet. However, when I had been a Member of the Dáil but a short time, I and other Members with similar interests became a little impatient and had the temerity to table parliamentary questions to our own Ministers. It was not a good idea. It was frowned upon and a group of senior members of the organisation took us aside to inform us of the error of our ways. However, a senior Member of the House, the late Oliver J. Flanagan, stood up and said that one thing Members of the House should never forget is that the right to ask a parliamentary question of any Minister at any time on any subject relevant to his Department is sacrosanct. The day that ceases to be the case is the day we become irrelevant. I am not saying for one moment that the Minister is responsible for that erosion. Let us be magnanimous and recover some of that lost ground. Let us clearly make a statement, unlike the Eircom situation where the horses ran off with the carriage. In that case, the Minister was caught between Eircom as the service provider, on the one hand, and the regulator, on the other, but nothing happened. Let us be responsible to the House, therefore, recover that ground and stake our claim to it. We should not be afraid of it. It is always easy to take responsibility for the good, positive things — to make announcements and cut the tape at openings. It is not so easy to accept the warts when things go wrong — the lights go out or the electric kettle does not boil. Let us take the rough with the smooth and be responsible for everything.

Chairman

Is the Minister accepting any of the amendments?

Mr. N. Dempsey

Despite the eloquent pleas, I am not.

Mr. Broughan

I wish to add a final plea to what my colleague has said. There is always the question, quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Our learned clerk knows exactly to what I am referring. We have set up many custodes and we are finding it hard to come to grips with them. Therefore, who guards the guardians of our energy market? In this case it is an all-island market. I know the Minister is making trenchant efforts to stick to the July 2007 date. This time next year, the Minister or whoever else will be responsible for it, will clearly see the significance of the development. I commend the Government for its achievements in this regard. Following all the work throughout the peace process, both sides of Ireland are beginning to forge significant economic and social connections. Energy is perhaps the most significant one. It came home to a number of us when Ian Paisley’s Jr. started complaining about what he called the “energy supply board”. He had realised that an organisation called the ESB existed and was going to be the biggest of the two electricity supply companies in the duopoly — the other being Veridian — which dominates the all-island market. It is significant.

My colleague made a valid point about having political control at the end of the day. I presume the Minister is still going to bring forward a single market Bill and that he is working on the maths. We have some maths in this report, although very little. Presumably, the Minister is still working on the determination of how this market will operate. It is an exciting proposal. The ESB and Veridian are excited about it, as it is a significant step forward and not just in the energy area. People tend to forget that it is such a significant development.

This committee is active in a range of areas. I am not sure how often it has called in regulators but I suspect it has done so on more than one occasion in the past. That is a function of the committee. There are no holds barred in that respect. I detect what members opposite are saying and I would be interested in expanding upon it, with your permission, Chairman. Are they seriously suggesting we should go back to the situation where the Minister decides the price of electricity? If so, we are going back to the bad old days, or a continuation of the bad old days, where there will be no competition in the market. There would be so much market uncertainty and regulatory uncertainty that nobody would come into it. We would have just one dominant incumbent as we have had for many years. It is easy to say, "We are going to control prices," but it is not quite so easy to do. We have obligations.

Mr. Broughan

I am not saying that. I am saying we should be prepared to take other measures.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I do not disagree with the Deputy but one cannot interfere in the market because we have gone down that road. The measures we have to take involve tackling fuel poverty. I agree with the Deputy on that matter and we need to be consistent in that regard. The reality is that one sets up these independent regulatory authorities to give certainty to the market — to try to stimulate the market so that it becomes as normal as possible. The hope is that over a period of time, the level of regulation needed will be less because one will have a fully functioning market.

This country does not have such a market in electricity or energy generally and we will not have it unless we make changes. That is why I commissioned the Deloitte & Touche report. That is why I have spent a considerable period of time with the people on this side of the table examining energy policy and looking at ways forward. While I agree with the general philosophical discussion we are having, there are areas which are better left to experts, subject to overall policy guidelines. This is one of them.

Mr. Durkan

I will not delay the discussion but this is an important and fundamental point. We are not attempting to roll back the years or anything like that, but I respectfully suggest to the Minister that a welcome change is now taking place. I hope competition in the marketplace will bring benefits to the consumer. It should be remembered that we must also maintain continuity and security of supply. Somebody will have to be responsible for all that, otherwise it will be no use if there is a glitch in two or three years time and we wake up one morning and there is no power. The Minister or somebody sitting in his place will have to take responsibility then. It will be no good saying at that stage that the Minister has no responsibility to the House. It would be to his credit if he recognised the need for control, not over matters such as price but the growth and development of that market. We are totally supportive of a single electricity market on the island and the need for competition and change. While I do not want to keep citing the Eircom example, it is a recent graphic one.

The factor to be borne in mind by nobody except the Minister is this. We must keep in mind the size of a utility company and its responsibilities to deliver a service to the public, but the Minister has also made provision in the Bill for intervention in a crisis. However, the fire brigade intervention aspect is not one on which we should dwell. If the Minister retains a clause which should be included in the legislation, whereby there is recognition on all sides that he can look over the shoulders of those to whom responsibility is being given, whether they be regulators or service providers, which do not stand for election, there must also be recognition, for example, that there will be a degree of investment in the future. If the Minister does not tie the investment in infrastructure to the size of a company's assets and its responsibility to deliver a service to the public, there is a grave danger that, instead of having a utility company delivering services to the public, we will have an investment house or venture capital investment whereby investors worldwide will be able to become involved on a regular basis and make vast amounts of money. I cite as an example the dot com companies about which we all heard, read and romanticised in terms of how 14 year olds would become multimillionaires within two years. One must remember what happened to them — they disappeared in mid-air.

We are entering a new phase in the development of the energy industry in this country, rightly so. We are shifting from a tightly controlled State system to one which is being opened up in line with European and national legislation. We are creating the atmosphere for competition. We are establishing the office of the commission and the regulator which will have devolved responsibilities; otherwise they would be policymakers. It is essential, therefore, that there be an over-arching responsibility to be given to the Minister and the Department.

Broughan, Thomas P.
Durkan, Bernard J.

Níl

Callanan, Joe.
Dempsey, Noel.
Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Malley, Fiona.

Amendment declared lost.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 4, line 24, after "operator," to insert "subject to the approval of Dáil Éireann,".

Amendment put and declared lost.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 4, line 31, after "Commission" to insert the following:

"or from the Commission on the Direction of the Minister".

The purpose of this amendment is to recognise the primacy of the Minister in giving direction. I am seeking to ensure that, rather than having the commission direct itself or subservient bodies, it will act on the direction of the Minister. This is fundamental to the legislation, given that provision must be made for the Minister to direct. I am interested in hearing what the Minister has to say on the matter.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Sitting suspended at 12.05 p.m. and resumed at 12.20 p.m.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 5, line 8, after "Union" to insert the following:

"and in particular the Northern Ireland Authority for Energy Regulation".

The subsection to which the amendment relates obviously refers to the commission's role. It states:

"(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2) the Commission in exercising its powers under this section may—

(a) liaise,

(b) co-operate, or

(i) the sharing of information, or

(ii) the sharing of expenditure,

with a relevant person in any other Member State of the European Union."

Considering the issue, I presume that it would include the Northern Ireland regulator.

The Chairman will remember that one of our most interesting sessions in the past 12 to 18 months occurred when we met the Northern Ireland Authority for Energy Regulation. We heard an interesting account of what it had been doing in its jurisdiction. I believe that it has a longer history than the Commission for Energy Regulation. However, it must also be said that it has been unsuccessful in that, according to the Economic and Social Research Institute, the privatisation of Northern Ireland Electricity and the advent of Viridian have led to a period in which consumers have not benefited at all from market liberalisation. Electricity price benefits that may have accrued in Britain did not seem to transfer to Northern Ireland because it was such a small, isolated market. It might be state that privatisation in Northern Ireland is an ongoing disaster. This committee was lectured on a few occasions by the incumbent regarding its performance and the fact that it was in the unique situation of owning a network as well as generating capacity, although it is a privatised company.

I would like to tease out whether it is not better to mention it. I did so on Second Stage when we asked, in light of the issues recently raised at EU level, what the future holds for CER as the single market develops. Will there, at some stage, be a single, all-island regulator? A single market implies a single regulator. It is difficult to see how a market might operate with two different outfits trying to regulate it. In one of the most interesting presentations that we heard, we were treated to very forthright and frank comments from the Northern Ireland regulator regarding how it envisaged matters evolving. However, it also understands the implication that if one is to have regulated markets, one should ultimately have a single regulator.

There is also the long-term situation to which this Bill does not refer. The EU Energy Commissioner and the new commission — in its Green Paper — refer to grouping us with several other countries, particularly the United Kingdom, as an energy region. The two states of Ireland and the United Kingdom would become a single energy region in European terms. I assume that Ofgem would, therefore, be responsible for determining the price. That is obviously in the future and would pre-empt the situation regarding the significant interconnectors to which we referred and the creation of a two-island market. Much consideration has been given to regulation beyond our State and discussion recently took place in respect of the original five or six EU nations signing a single electricity market pact. That too presumes that energy policy at EU level would lead to a strong EU regulator. It is that for which we should ultimately prepare.

In that regard, in line 8, should we not simply acknowledge that and refer to the Northern Ireland Authority for Energy Regulation in the Bill? I presume that some technical work remains and the Minister stated recently that it was now behind schedule. The two regulators will be obliged to work on it intensively to prepare the ground and so on. As I said, it is interesting that UUP and DUP politicians in particular are becoming aware that this policy is approaching fast. Is it not an acknowledgment of their interest and that of all the people of the island if we mention that our regulator, CER, will have the specific role of liaising closely with the Northern Ireland Authority for Energy Regulation?

Mr. N. Dempsey

The amendment is already encompassed in the Bill, and the specific wording that the Deputy suggests is unnecessary. I will highlight it for the Deputy. Section 3(5) states:

"(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2) the Commission in exercising its powers under this section may—

(a) liaise,

(b) co-operate, or

(i) the sharing of information, or

(ii) the sharing of expenditure,

with a relevant person in any other Member State of the European Union."

That covers not only Northern Ireland but also any other EU member state. References to a relevant person are defined in subsection (6), which states:

"‘relevant person' means—

(a) any person exercising a function in relation to an energy market which corresponds to any of the functions of the Commission or the Minister under—

(i) the Electricity and Gas Regulation Acts 1999 to 2002,"

The Deputy's well made point in this regard is encompassed in the Bill as drafted. His other points were an expansion regarding the European Union, Ireland, the United Kingdom and the Continent and the possibility of single regulators. Regarding the all-island market, we said that we would first operate on the basis of establishing the single electricity market and that this would involved co-operation on the part of the two regulators. They have still not informed me of any change to the 1 July date, although they have stated that some of the work has fallen behind schedule. I hope that we will be as close as possible to that date. There is no provision as yet for a single regulator in the single electricity market but it will be examined, probably in 2009, after a bedding-down period.

Owing to the fact that it would benefit Irish consumers and the electricity market generally, I also accept the European policy that Ireland and the United Kingdom should move towards being a single region for energy purposes. That will give rise to the question of whether we have a single regulator or simply ask the existing regulators to work very closely together, something that they are already doing. Following discussions at EU level, we are working with the United Kingdom and France to examine the possibilities of a regional market encompassing the three countries. Other countries such as Belgium may also wish to join.

I remain to be convinced regarding the merits of having a single EU regulator because I see what has happened in other areas. One of these areas, with which the Deputy and I are possibly familiar, is the postal sector, where decisions are made at European level and a one-size-fits-all approach is taken. The latter does not really work that well for us. The electricity market may be slightly different in that the larger the market and the more competition we can introduce through interconnection, the better it will be for consumers. It is not quite the same.

I would not take the leap at this stage and very much doubt if agreement could be reached at European level in respect of the concept of the single regulator. It is probably one of the areas in Europe where regulators are working more closely together than any other. This may represent the way forward.

Mr. Broughan

What would happen if a situation arose, following the establishment of a single market, whereby the same companies could apply to the two regulators in respect of their maltreatment. For example, Viridian could complain to our regulator, while the ESB could complain to Northern Ireland Authority for Energy Regulation in the context of a particular difficulty. Given that it would be a single market, what would happen if one regulator gave a determination to Viridian in respect of the 26 counties with which the other regulator did not agree and the ESB in Northern Ireland was not given a similar determination? If both regulators had a disagreement in the future, would it not lead to legal chaos?

Is there not some merit in recognising the Northern Ireland Authority for Energy Regulation in the legislation? Obviously, it is the first step because, as everyone knows, we are on a long road. Through invigilating energy for our parties, Opposition members have learned what a long-term process it is in terms of a generator. One is talking about decades of trying to turn the ship around in the context of matters such as renewables. Given that it is the first step, would it not be better if the Minister included this provision in the legislation and give himself the possibility of having some mechanism to determine this matter? I know that the Minister and his counterpart in Northern Ireland, Maria Eagle, MP, would have a determination. What is the obstacle to including this provision in the legislation?

Mr. Durkan

I support the amendment. In respect of the concept in general, I would like to discuss the all-Ireland energy market and its importance. The latter can often be over-emphasised because, as the discussion shows, Ireland is part of a region. However, this does not necessarily mean that the island is less important. Given that two regulators exist, one on each part of the island, there should be a particular relationship between them that would necessarily be provided for in similar situations throughout Europe. It does no harm to record and recognise this.

The degree of co-operation in respect of the energy market is to be welcomed and could be used as a template for co-operation in many other areas. Both parts of the island could copy examples of best practice. In economic terms, there is much to be gained from getting the best of both, tying them together as much as possible and using them to the benefit of the community at large. Deputy Broughan's amendment focuses attention on this particular aspect and, as the Minister acknowledged, recognises that we are only small players, even in the context of the all-island market, because we are discussing a region within Europe. We must also reflect on that fact.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 5, line 14, after "seas" to insert "as specified in the Schedule".

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 5, line 32, after "services" to insert "affecting other forms of home heating".

This is the only way through which I could register my concerns about the glaring inadequacy of the Bill, sections of which address electrical and gas installations. Given that the Bill relates to energy and that home heating covers other forms of heating, conventional and new, it is imperative that we introduce the same regulations in respect of health, safety and efficiency. One can conserve energy and reduce heating bills by up to 50%, which is a considerable amount. It is important that this be included as a fundamental pillar of the Bill. I gave notice that a new section should be inserted today.

Everyone agrees with the use of renewable sources of energy for domestic and commercial heating purposes but the manner in which the system is installed is very important. Many have comments to make on the air conditioning system in this building. This room is acceptable but other parts of the building do not conform to any current standards. The same applies to heating. Let us consider geothermal heating, which is very expensive and is of major importance if we are to conserve energy in the future. If we are to follow the geothermal route, we should do so correctly. We should implement the highest possible standards of efficiency and conservation. This could be achieved by inserting a new section that sets out specific standards by which new heating systems must operate.

With regard to conventional energy, perhaps some believe it is not necessary to have such specific standards, that the systems for such heating are simple and that health and safety is not an issue. This is incorrect because standards affect efficiency to a major extent. One can have several systems working in tandem, such as solar, wood pellet, wood chip, oil and gas. Gas and electricity installations have already been addressed but we have not considered the efficiency of other systems. It would be short-sighted if we passed and enacted the Bill without recognising the importance of efficiency.

A member of the plumbers organisation alerted me to the need for upgrading of plumber training. A supervisory body is also needed to ensure the highest standards prevail. During the years every Member of the Houses has come across conventional heating systems that posed a danger. An inspector might, as happened in the past week, declare the heating system to be a death trap and in danger of explosion. In this way, houses are blown up and people are injured. Efficiency must be considered, as must the different elements that may constitute a home heating system.

Safety is also a major concern. It is important that those involved in the installation of these systems are subjected to the same regulations proposed in the Bill for gas and electricity. Gas and electricity have been included because of the volatility of these energy sources but these provisions should be extended to other energy sources. The manner in which a house is plumbed can determine the cost of one's heating bill. This is a void in the Bill which must be filled. It would be foolish to pass the Bill without considering efficiency and safety requirements that apply to other sections of it. These could be incorporated into this section or in another section. I intend to raise this matter again on Report Stage.

Mr. Broughan

I have sympathy with the amendment tabled by Deputy Durkan. Heating and cooling could be addressed in a more fundamental way. In this regard, it is incredible that a major element of the energy market is not invigilated by CER, namely, the oil market. One may point to the Competition Authority but, given the interchangeability of energy, the key role played by oil in the home heating market means that we should give serious consideration to regulating this part of the market. During the Second Stage debate on the National Oil Reserves Agency Bill, someone stated that the liquid fuel market is competitive. That is a ludicrous statement. If there is a comprehensive single market, a lacuna may exist in respect of our invigilation of energy. At some stage, this must be addressed.

Last night's news carried a report that energy analysts on Wall Street suggest that we may be obliged to accept prices of $100 per barrel in respect of oil. This will become a basic cost that our economy must bear. This is a fundamental factor in the shift from oil to gas and is an area this Government or the next Administration will be obliged to examine closely.

Chairman

Is Deputy Durkan proposing a new section on Report Stage?

Mr. Durkan

Mr. N. Dempsey

We have regulations in place. When I was Minister with responsibility for the environment, we had the option to introduce new standards of insulation in two phases in 2001 and 2005. Rather than do it that way, I insisted that the 2005 standard be put in place by 2003. We went straight from a mid-1990s standard to a 2005 standard in 2003. That is extremely important.

No matter how wealthy we think we are, we should not make up for past mistakes of builders in respect of wall insulation. It is more important that we focus on new technologies. The point on the availability of information on renewable energies and standards was well made by both Deputies and is extremely important. SEI is specifically charged with this. Its office is in Cork and the information is available on its website. I encourage it to be as forthright as possible. The committee recommended having a sustained campaign on energy efficiency and we are doing so.

This is not the appropriate place in the Bill for the amendment because it deals with the definition of the energy market per se. Concerns raised by the Deputy are dealt with by other Departments. As we go through the Bill, we will see if it could be more suitably placed elsewhere.

Chairman

Will the Deputy withdraw his amendment?

Mr. Durkan

Before I do so, I wish to qualify the matter further. I understand what the Minister stated and I was conscious of it when I tabled the amendment. However, the amendment had to be tabled somewhere. I do not accept that we should divide responsibility for various types of energy between Departments. This Bill covers gas installers and installations, which can affect houses, schools or factories. The legislation also covers electricity installation which is also extremely important as it concerns fire safety. I could give other instances and I am sure the Minister received countless representations from RECI and other representative bodies on this issue.

It would be daft to be obliged to go to another Department for an inspection when we inspections are provided for here. We should be efficient in how we administer and deliver the legislation. Whether he or she is installing electrical, gas, home, renewable or other heating or installing combined methods of heating, the installer must be subject to and compliant in the same way on efficiency and safety. If one aspect is wrong it can trigger a problem and I will recount a ridiculous story to illustrate this.

I am not seeking a job in case the electorate might see me off the premises in the next election. I can, however, carry out these installations, although I am not qualified to do so. There might be room for me——

Chairman

The Deputy will have to carry out any installations before the Bill is enacted.

Mr. Broughan

The Chairman is also skilled tradesman. He will be okay if he loses his seat.

Mr. Durkan

I will seek a job from him.

I recall obtaining a disabled person's grant for a person with special needs. This happened a long time ago, when central heating was not as common. It was just before Christmas and the unfortunate person regarded the installation of a solid fuel system as a great achievement. I was called the morning after the installation and recall approaching the site from raised ground across the Bog of Allen. All I could see was a steam geyser rising into the frosty air. The problem was that the expansion pipe was connected to the roof of the building instead of a containment tank. I asked the installer to fix the pipe but, needless to say, he was not pleased to do so and has since avoided me. That was a case of a simple installation which went wrong. Provision has to be made in this legislation so that inspections of electrical and gas heating installations are not the responsibility of multiple Departments, which would entail unnecessary expense.

Chairman

How stands the amendment?

Mr. Durkan

If the Minister is agreeable to making a proposal on a later stage, I will withdraw it. However, I reserve the right to reintroduce it on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 5, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following:

"(d) measures to alleviate fuel and energy poverty,”.

This section defines the all-island market which includes generation, supply, transmission and distribution of electricity, as well as research and development into energy efficiency and sustainable energy. The section should also provide for measures which could address problems in the market.

I raised the issue of energy poverty on Second Stage. Last night I met a man in his late 60s who thought last winter was the coldest of his life. Winters seem to be getting harder, with the result that many people will not benefit from the all-island market. I recall being met at the door of a house by a man who was wearing an overcoat in the middle of the day because he could not pay the bill for his gas central heating. The Minister might regard this as an issue for the Departments of Social and Family Affairs and Finance but we cannot talk about the all-island market without making reference to such issues. The social policy department in UCD has conducted a number of studies on the extent of energy poverty, the classic symptom of which is anybody who spends more than 10% of his or her income on energy.

The issue can also be discussed in a wider context, in that most poorer people do not have personal transport. Until the improvements of the past decade, such as the Luas, public transport infrastructure grossly discriminated against urban areas. Energy poverty is a serious issue and an outcome of the market. Constituents bring their ESB bills to my clinic to ask me why they should pay the public service obligation levy. Why should poor people pay for green energy? The overall conception of the market should include measures to alleviate energy poverty.

This is my third summer as Labour Party spokesperson on energy and the third time I have debated the ESB and gas prices. I have no input into this matter nor, apparently, do the CER and the Minister. The CER should be investigating ways to help the people who find it difficult to pay for their basic energy needs. Mr. Vincent Browne is constantly reminding us of discrimination in the areas of health and education but gross discrimination also exists in terms of energy. If we had taken a different approach, we would not now be discussing whether to build the metro on the edge of my constituency but would already have done so. I commend the amendment.

Mr. Durkan

Mr. N. Dempsey

I have not finished yet. The Department of Social and Family Affairs provides the fuel allowances. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has a multimillion euro programme to upgrade local authority dwellings, including insulation and the installation of central heating. It has a remedial works scheme, for which this year's figure is approximately €60 million. The greener homes scheme allows consumers to access cheaper energy. Much is being done to alleviate fuel poverty. Some fuel poverty is caused not solely by the price rises, which have affected older people and which we have tried to alleviate, but by the fact that those who suffer from it live in older accommodation that does not have modern insulation. The focus of Government policy, apart from the direct payments to people, has been on trying to bring home insulation and heating up to modern standards. That programme will continue and will be re-emphasised in the Green Paper.

Mr. Broughan

My point is that the Minister could frame the market structures in order that the CER would invigilate a market in which built-in elements would facilitate people on lower incomes. We had the night-saver electricity with the ESB, for which there is a higher standing charge and under which one ran one's appliances at night. That was one way of shaping the market. The CER would have to make a decision about such a policy.

The mathematics of the market could be framed in order that a company, be it the ESB, Viridian, Airtricity or any future company, could be facilitated by the CER in offering special deals to lower income people. I am not just talking about social welfare, fiscal measures or grants but structuring the market to allow a particular type of competition. Under ComReg's invigilation of the mobile telephone market, certain packages are clearly aimed at segments of the market. ComReg facilitated children and lower income seniors getting and maintaining a mobile telephone. Meteor started the ball rolling, although it had only the 2G licence. I am not talking just about grants and such supports. The Minister for Finance would have a key role in deciding taxation issues. Everybody was asking us about petrol taxation, for which nobody takes responsibility but for which we will have to take increasing responsibility.

I agree with the Minister's other points. Research and development is critical. Efficiency is critical, as Deputy Durkan so eloquently expressed. Sustainability is critical and I commend the Minister on his work in that area. Running the two big markets is also important. Why not include a provision on running the market in such a way that particular elements of it could be provided for lower income people? For example, if Northern Ireland Electricity aimed a particular offering for seniors in older accommodation, the ESB could do the same in a competitive situation. The Minister should include such a provision at the heart of our consideration. This is in the Fine Gael and Labour Party policy. It will probably be in the Fianna Fáil policy too. We must be concerned about people who are suffering in current market conditions. The situation is scary. What should we advise people to do in regard to oil central heating? With regard to the gas network, we have discussed many times in this forum the question of extending it all over the island particularly into Connacht. Should we not put energy and fuel poverty at the core of this?

Chairman

Perhaps the Minister would examine the Deputy's proposal between now and Report Stage.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 2; Níl, 6.

Tá

Broughan, Thomas P.
Durkan, Bernard.

Níl

Brady, Martin.
Carey, Pat.
Dempsey, Noel.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Malley, Fiona.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 5, line 34, after "activities" to insert the following:

"as may from time to time be determined by the Minister".

This amendment would be a useful addition to indicate that the Minister may from time to time determine the scale and range of the efficiency, research and development, or other sustainable energy activities that might be determined by circumstances. The amendment covers two options. It covers the evolving situation, whereby something may emerge that would require a ministerial intervention or direction. It would require the Minister to set out or increase the extent and scale of the responsibilities under this section. Second, it might also be helpful in the event of a failure in any area to deliver the requirements, as envisaged by the Minister and his Department, in the compilation of this section. It might well be necessary to respond to emerging factors, hence my request for that determination. In addition, it also brings the Minister back into the front line, as is most important.

Mr. Broughan

I support the amendment. As matters develop, the energy market, including provision, is changing dramatically. In recent days, for example, I note that the British published their third energy review. I remind the Minister that we are still awaiting his review. It was interesting that much of the debate among the spokespersons of the British political parties centred on the grid and the new Tory Party leader's ideas about a decentralised grid which I presume he received from the Green Party. Such issues which may not yet be hot topics in this country could develop as being important.

The anticipation of this dates back as far as 1999. Section 2(4) of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 provides: "The Minister may from time to time by order amend the definition of renewable, sustainable or alternative sources of energy by the addition of further renewable, sustainable or alternative sources of energy". The point of the amendment is well encompassed. This is not limiting in any way and covers any contingency in suitable or alternative sources of energy.

The point Deputy Broughan made about a decentralised grid, by which I presume he means where there are small-scale operators trying to get onto the grid, is being looked at in the context of an all-island grid study and will be covered in the SEM also.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 15:

15.—In page 6, before section 4, to insert the following new section:

"4.—The Act of 1999 is amended by the insertion after section 9B (inserted by section 3) of the following sections—

‘9C.—It shall be a function of the Commission to regulate the activities of electrical contractors with respect to safety.

9D.—(1) (a) The Commission may appoint a person or persons to be a designated body for the purposes of this section and such body may be referred to as an Electrical Safety Supervisory Body.

(b) Where the Commission has not appointed a person or persons to be a designated body, or a designated body is, in the opinion of the Commission, no longer able to carry out its functions under this section, the Commission may, with the consent of the Minister, appoint an employee of the Commission to carry out those functions on a temporary basis.

(2) (a) In determining the number of persons appointed under subsection (1) the Commission shall have regard to the costs likely to be incurred—

(i) by the Commission in carrying out its functions under this section, and

(ii) by final customers,

(b) Paragraph 16 of Schedule 1 shall apply to any costs incurred by the Commission in carrying out its functions under this section,

(c) In paragraph (b) the words “any costs incurred by the Commission” includes any moneys provided by the Commission to a designated body, following its appointment under subsection (1), to facilitate that body in establishing and carrying out its functions.

(3) A person shall not be appointed to be a designated body, or if so appointed shall cease to act as a designated body, if that person is or becomes a trade association or performs representative functions on behalf of persons working in the electrical industry.

(4) A person who does not for the time being stand appointed as a designated body shall not describe himself or herself as an Electrical Safety Supervisory Body or in a manner likely to suggest that such person is a designated body for the purposes of this section.

(5) (a) The Commission shall publish criteria (in this section referred to as ‘the criteria’) relating to—

(i) electrical safety supervision,

(ii) the safety standards to be achieved and maintained by electrical contractors, and

(iii) the procedures to be operated by a person appointed as a designated body.

(b) The criteria to be published in connection with paragraph (a) shall include, but shall not be limited to, the following information:

(i) the procedures to be adopted by a designated body for the registration of its members;

(ii) the procedures to be followed by a person applying for membership of a designated body;

(iii) the services which a designated body may carry out on behalf of its members to facilitate the performance of its functions;

(iv) the standards of training and safety to be achieved and maintained by members of a designated body and the procedures to be followed by a designated body in monitoring such standards;

(v) the procedures to be followed by a designated body for the inspection of any work carried out by one of its members, or by a person who is not a registered electrical contractor;

(vi) the procedures to be followed by a designated body in connection with the suspension or revocation of the membership of one of its members;

(vii) the matters to be covered by a completion certificate in respect of different categories or classes of electrical works and the circumstances in which each such class of certificate shall be used;

(viii) the type of accounts to be kept by the designated body, and the manner in which such accounts should be audited;

(ix) the method by which the accounts kept under subparagraph (viii) should be published; and

(x) the procedures to be followed, and the records to be maintained, by a designated body or its members (where appropriate), in connection with subparagraphs (i) to (ix).

(6) The Commission shall not appoint a person to be a designated body unless it is satisfied that the person is capable of complying with the criteria, and as respects each person who is a member (in this section referred to as a registered electrical contractor) of that designated body that the body has, or will have if appointed, the capability and entitlement to—

(a) inspect any work carried out by a registered electrical contractor,

(b) monitor the training and safety standards of a person who is a registered electrical contractor,

(c) review training undertaken by a person engaged either as an employee or as an independent contractor of a registered electrical contractor,

(d) issue directions to a registered electrical contractor regarding the training to be given to or undertaken by a class or classes of persons engaged either as employees or as independent contractors,

(e) suspend the membership of a registered electrical contractor in a designated body where that registered electrical contractor is the subject of an investigation by that body into whether—

(i) work carried out by the registered electrical contractor concerned is unsafe or otherwise of an unsatisfactory standard,

(ii) the training of employees and independent contractors engaged by the registered electrical contractor concerned is materially inadequate, or

(iii) the registered electrical contractor has acted in contravention of the criteria to a material extent,

(f) suspend or revoke the membership of a registered electrical contractor in the designated body where that body is satisfied that any of the matters specified in subparagraphs (i) to (iii) of paragraph (e) apply as respects the contractor concerned.

(7) (a) Where a designated body decides to suspend or revoke the membership of a registered electrical contractor in that body, such designated body shall inform, in writing, both—

(i) the Commission, and

(ii) the registered electrical contractor concerned,

of its decision to suspend or revoke the membership of a registered electrical contractor in the designated body,

(b) A registered electrical contractor, the subject of a decision under paragraph (a), may submit an appeal, in writing, of the decision to the Commission within 28 days of being informed of the decision.

(8) (a) The Commission shall appoint one or more persons (“Appeals Officer”) to—

(i) duly consider, and

(ii) furnish a report to the Commission on,

any appeal submitted by a registered electrical contractor relating to a decision made by the designated body to suspend or revoke his or her membership in the designated body,

(b) The Commission shall have regard to the report of the Appeals Officer under paragraph (a) and shall advise the designated body, the Appeals Officer and the registered electrical contractor concerned of its decision to confirm, vary or set aside the decision of the designated body concerned.

(i) it relates to any matter the subject of proceedings before a court or other tribunal, until those proceedings are determined, or

(ii) it is not submitted to the Commission within 28 days of the registered electrical contractor concerned being informed of the decision.

(9) Notwithstanding the generality of subsections (7) and (8), the Commission may specify the procedures to be followed by:

(a) the Appeals Officer in considering the appeal;

(b) the Appeals Officer in drafting his or her report to the Commission;

(d) a registered electrical contractor who is the subject of a decision by the designated body to suspend or revoke his or her membership in the designated body,

in the criteria published under subsection (5).

(10) (a) The tariff of fees and charges imposed by a designated body relating to—

(i) membership of an electrical contractor in that body,

(ii) registration of an electrical contractor as a registered electrical contractor,

(iii) inspections of electrical works, and

(iv) any service provided to a member of a designated body by or on behalf of that body,

shall be subject to the approval of the Commission.

(b) All expenses and costs incurred by a designated body in carrying out any of its functions under this section shall be defrayed by the designated body out of funds at its disposal which are obtained in accordance with paragraph (a).

(11) A person may not be a member of more than one designated body.

(12) Where a registered electrical contractor carries out electrical works, the works shall be carried out in accordance with the safety requirements approved by the Commission from time to time.

(13) Where a registered electrical contractor carries out electrical works, which by reason of a determination by the Commission under subsection (27) are specified works, the registered electrical contractor concerned shall issue a completion certificate to the person who requested the works to be carried out.

(14) Where specified works are carried out by an electrical contractor who is not a member of a designated body, the person on whose behalf the specified works are being carried out shall request a designated body to arrange for the carrying out of an inspection of the works and, if the works meet the safety requirements approved by the Commission, for the issue of a completion certificate.

(15) A designated body which receives a request under subsection (14) shall arrange for the carrying out of the inspection as soon as practicable and, if appropriate, the issue of a completion certificate.

(16) Subject to subsection (17), a designated body shall be entitled to payment of fees and charges in respect of the inspection of the works, and those fees and charges shall be no greater than is set out in the tariff of fees and charges published by the designated body concerned.

(17) The tariff of fees and charges referred to in subsection (16) shall not have effect until approved by the Commission, which approval shall not be given unless the Commission is satisfied that the fees and charges are calculated on the basis of the reasonable costs attributable to the carrying out of inspections under this section.

(18) The Commission shall specify a form of completion certificate to be used for the purposes of this section and may specify different forms for different circumstances or different classes of electrical work and may make provision relating to—

(a) procedures to be followed, and

(b) records to be maintained,

by registered electrical contractors and a designated body in connection with the issue of such certificates.

(19) (a) The Commission may conduct an inspection or audit of a designated body to verify compliance by the designated body with the requirements of this section, the terms and conditions of appointment and the criteria of the Commission.

(b) The Commission may appoint a person to assist it in performing inspections or audits referred to in paragraph (a).

(20) The Commission may determine the appointment of a designated body—

(a) in accordance with the terms and conditions of the appointment,

(b) where the Commission is of the opinion that an act or default by the designated body is a cause of serious danger to the public, with immediate effect, or

(c) where it is, in the opinion of the Commission, in the interests of consumers that the appointment be determined, and paragraph (b) does not apply, on giving not less than 3 months notice or such shorter period as may be specified in the terms and conditions of appointment in that respect.

(21) The Commission may appoint a person, including a person who is an employee of a designated body, to be an authorised officer for the purposes of carrying out inspections of electrical work—

(a) of registered electrical contractors on any land where the authorised officer believes such work is being or has been carried out by a such a contractor, or

(b) which has been the subject of a completion certificate,

but an authorised officer who is an employee of a designated body shall not exercise the powers conferred under this section as respects the work of a person who is a member of a designated body other than the designated body by which the authorised officer concerned is employed.

(22) A person appointed to be an authorised officer under subsection (21) shall on his or her appointment be furnished with a certificate of his or her appointment, and when exercising a power conferred by this section shall, if requested by any person thereby affected, produce such certificate to that person for inspection.

(23) A registered electrical contractor and every employee or independent contractor of a registered electrical contractor shall give all reasonable assistance to—

(a) an authorised officer in the exercise of his or her powers under this section, and

(b) the Commission in exercising its powers under subsection (19) including a person assisting the Commission pursuant to subsection (19).

(24) A person shall not obstruct—

(a) an authorised officer performing any function he or she is authorised to exercise or perform under this section,

(b) the Commission in exercising its powers under this section, or

(25) A person shall not describe himself or herself as a registered electrical contractor or in a manner likely to suggest that such person is a registered electrical contractor unless that person is for the time being a member of a designated body.

(26) A person who contravenes subsection (4), (24) or (25) is guilty of an offence and liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or to both.

(27) The Commission, having consulted with such persons as it considers appropriate, may determine that a class or classes of electrical works be specified works.

(28) In this section—

‘completion certificate' means a certificate the form of which has been specified by the Commission under subsection (18);

‘designated body' means a person appointed under subsection (1) to be a designated body for the purposes of this section;

‘specified works' means such class or classes of works as have been determined to be such by the Commission in accordance with subsection (27).

9E.—(1) The Commission, having consulted with such persons as it considers appropriate, and with the consent of the Minister, may by regulations designate a class or classes of electrical works to be designated electrical works.

(2) Where the Commission proposes to make regulations under subsection (1) the Minister, where he or she has approved the draft of such regulations, shall cause a draft of the regulations to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each such House.

(3) A person shall not carry out electrical works which are designated electrical works unless that person is a registered electrical contractor.

(4) A person who contravenes subsection (3) is guilty of an offence and liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or to both.’.”.

This amendment addresses a number of important issues raised in submissions from various relevant organisations such as the Register of Electrical Contractors of Ireland, RECI, and the Association of Electrical Contractors of Ireland, AECI, as well as in subsequent discussions between the Department and the CER. It also addresses a number of issues raised by Deputies on Second Stage.

Consensus was reached on some key areas of the Bill to be amended in order to enhance the practical implementation of the provisions. While the amendments deal with relatively few substantive issues, each requires consequential minor amendments throughout the text, including the renumbering of a number of provisions of section 11 as they currently stand. In order to ensure a proper logical sequence of sections to be inserted into the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 to ensure it is maintained, the Parliamentary Counsel has recommended that section 4 of the Bill be replaced in its entirety. That will serve to avoid any unfortunate administrative difficulties arising under incorrect sequencing of these provisions.

The main changes to section 4 are as follows. The proposed function of the CER, set out in section 9C has been amended to provide a comprehensive regulatory function to the CER to regulate the activities of electrical contractors with respect to safety. Rather than limiting the scope of the CER's role to the provision of training standards with regard to safety, its role will now be broader in scope and more in line with its current statutory functions as well as being consistent with the functions given to the CER with regard to gas installers. Section 9C, therefore, widens the scope away from training standards.

The sections dealing with the electrical safety supervisory body or designated body have been amended in section 9D(1)(b) of the Act of 1999 to allow the CER, with the Minister’s consent, to appoint one of its own employees to carry out the functions of the designated body on a temporary basis, if necessary.

There is also provision for the recoupment of costs by the CER for any expenses it incurs as a result of establishing the designated body in section 9D(2)(b) and (c). It is envisaged that there will probably be start-up costs which the CER may have to allow a designated body to carry out its designated functions, for example, IT facilities, staff, etc. Such costs may be recouped by means of a levy order in accordance with the Schedule to the 1999 Act.

Given the pivotal role that the electrical safety criteria document — called the "criteria document" — will play in the implementation of the safety regime, the relevant provisions have been substantially augmented in section 9D(5). It sets out more clearly the elements to be included in the criteria document. A detailed list of all the information to be provided in such a document will serve to copperfasten the importance of this document and provide for a more effective regulatory regime. In particular, provision is made for the publication of the designated body's accounts in the interest of transparency.

Paragraphs (e) and (f) of section 9D(6) relate to suspension and revocation of membership of electrical contractors. These provisions have been expanded to cover a number of issues raised by Deputies during Second Stage. They provide for the suspension of membership of a registered electrical contractor who is under investigation for specified reasons by the designated body on grounds of safety.

Subsections (7), (8) and (9) of section 9D provide for a comprehensive appeals procedure for registered electrical contractors whose membership in a designated body has been suspended or revoked. The mechanism is modelled on a similar provision contained in the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act with which committee members are familiar. It will allow registered electrical contractors to appeal any such decision to the commission should they believe they are being unfairly treated. The appellant is allowed 28 days in which to appeal a decision of the designated body and provision is made to allow the commission to appoint an appeals officer to investigate the matter and report to the commission on his or her findings.

Section 9D(10) relates to fees and charges of the electrical safety supervisory body. These have been amended to provide that a designated body be self-financing in terms of its safety activities.

To allow greater flexibility to the CER in carrying out its new safety functions, it will not be required to make regulations in order to specify electrical works as specified works — provided for in section 9D(27) — or to provide for the form of completion certificates required for specified works — section 9D(18). Instead this can be done by decision of the CER. The CER intends to use the works listed in the Electro-Technical Council of Ireland, ETCI, wiring rules as specified works. This allows the CER greater flexibility in keeping the safety framework up to date without having to go through the process of making regulations to do so. A definition of "specified works" is also provided for clarification purposes in section 9D(28).

This covers the outline of the new section. I apologise to members. We got the amendment to them as quickly as we could, but we are in the hands of the draftsmen.

Mr. Durkan

I appreciate the difficulty the Minister is in and hope he can appreciate the difficulty we are in on this side. The difficulty for this side of the House is that we have received a tranche of this volume which effectively is a new section replacing the previous section. At the time I received them — I have no reason to believe there was any particular delay — it was too late to submit any amendments. In order to provide for what might have to be done I give notice of my intention to raise amendments on all sections of this section on Report Stage. I have a whole sheaf of recommendations from RECI and other bodies. The possibility of going through those recommendations in the time allowed would take up all the time available to us and this would not serve any useful purpose. That is my concession to the proposal.

Mr. Broughan

I echo the comments of Deputy Durkan. It is a pity the committee did not have sight of this proposed new section earlier. Various bodies such as RECI and individual tradespeople contacted us and probably also contacted the Department. We were trying to see how the sections of the Bill could be improved, in particular the area relating to electrical works and safety. I will give the same indication as Deputy Durkan that I wish to raise it again on Report Stage.

The key issue which was brought to my attention before I even read the Bill was the difference between specified works and designated electrical works. Has the Minister cut this issue off at the pass, so to speak, with his proposal? The specified works are referred to in the old section 13 of the Bill. There is no point having CER reinventing the wheel by bringing forward new definitions on every aspect of electrical works. The situation regarding designated works is clear in that the CER had an invigilatory role regarding safety. The concern of people involved in the trade was that specified works were other works that somehow or other could be carried out by others.

When the Labour Party was drafting an amendment on this matter, we had to consider the training undergone by electricians and electrical engineers. Under some of the new regulations which the Minister may have introduced when he was Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, every light in a house must be earthed whereas older houses were not earthed and may be very dangerous, strictly speaking. Who will do this work? Could it be the plumber? There is an interface between plumbing and the electrical trades, particularly in the case of heating. Both of these trades seem to do aspects of each others work; the plumber does some of the electrical work. There was a genuine concern that we were allowing some tranche of works under specified works and a person would not be held responsible for them if he or she carried them out. Different trade organisations have a good reputation for invigilating their trades and standing over the work carried out.

I ask the Minister to elucidate "specified" and "designated". Has this distinction been clarified for the industry? There was a concern among the professional bodies that tried and trusted criteria could be used as standard by the CER and by the new electrical safety supervisory body. They would not need to re-invent the wheel. From what the Minister has said, he seems to be accepting this proposal.

An impressive point about the contributions we received from the professional bodies was that they themselves raised the concern that an electrician or electrical company could deliberately harass people regarding moneys or disagreements about the fee for a job by refusing to issue the completion certificate. Has this been taken care of? This point was brought to my attention by the professional bodies and they deserve credit for doing so. Deputy Eamon Ryan is not present today. We both put in proposals in amendment No. 41 regarding completion certificates.

I refer to the old section 4 of the Bill at the top of page ten. How did the Minister tighten up this provision? Deputy Ryan and I were of the same mind in proposing to delete it. My amendment No. 46 relates to specified and designated work which is a key provision. Has the Minister taken care of the designation of an electrical contractor? I suggested that an electrical contractor be defined in regulations published by the Minister for the guidance of the commission. Did the Minister avoid the use of that phrase in the new section of the Bill or should it be included somewhere?

Those are the five or six major points. The most important and difficult to understand was the difference between "specified" and "designated". Has the Minister dealt with this question? Would it not have been better to have one adjective to describe electrical works? The implication is that the professional bodies are fearful that, as with accounting, every Tom, Dick and Harry will call himself an electrician or electrical engineer. That is not to be encouraged, especially from a safety perspective. Those were my concerns with the section, down to the provisions of amendment No. 47.

Mr. Durkan

I appreciate what members are saying. When they have had more time to read the new section 4, they will find that most of the concerns they expressed today and on Second Stage have been addressed. We have all been working from the same hymn sheet given the submissions which the trade also made to the Department. Those submissions were considered and a great deal of consultation took place with the designated and representative bodies. A consensus was reached on the direction we should take and the idea, to which Deputy Broughan also referred, of an appeals system was taken on board. The new section 4 represents a consensus position following all of those consultations. If members wish to meet with officials prior to Report Stage to examine the provisions in detail to ensure their concerns have been addressed and enable them to table amendments, we can make arrangements for them. Retention of the two categories, specified and designated works, is essential to ensure CER regulation of the activities of the electrical contractors with respect to safety is proportionate to the risks involved. Specified works are those that require a completion certificate and are set out by the CER. They will encompass a wide range of electrical works any individual, even Deputy Durkan, may undertake but can be certified only by a registered electrical contractor. That is why we are retaining the distinction.

Designated works are limited to critical areas of electrical works that should be undertaken only by a registered electrical contractor for safety reasons. In time an offence is committed if an unregistered contractor carries out these designated works, for example, new house connections where it is appropriate for only registered contractors to undertake such work given the inherent safety risks.

The new regulations and criteria will apply to all houses, old and new. If there is more than one designated body the officers of one will not police the members of another. They will police only the members of their own bodies. The electrical contractor does not require definition in primary legislation. The criteria document will spell this out clearly. Who knows what way the electrical market will develop or what advances will be made. It is not a good idea to include such a definition in primary legislation because it can be changed only in primary legislation.

Mr. Broughan

Deputy Quinn raises every morning the fact that the building regulations contain a definition of an architect, for the first time. Previously anybody could have claimed to be an architect. Anybody can claim to be an accountant. There are many handymen and women who could claim to be electrical contractors.

Mr. N. Dempsey

When this measure is in place they will have to prove it because they must be registered and have a "licence" for this. There will be a means by which people can check whether the person is a registered electrical contractor. Rather than tie the definition down in primary legislation we are anxious that if circumstances change the change in the criteria document would be sufficient to encompass it.

Safety standards may need to be flexible at different times but they should be set out in the criteria document that will relate to electrical works as set out by the industry standards, for instance, the Electro-Technical Council of Ireland's wiring rules.

I will inquire about the certificate issued by the National Qualifications Authority to ensure it is FETAC or HETAC. While that would not be our responsibility directly I agree that it would be a good idea. Apprenticeships are probably 0.3 or 0.4 on that scale of qualification. We should look for it.

Mr. Broughan

The Minister should include it in the legislation.

Mr. N. Dempsey

We will examine the matter. It probably is happening but I am not certain about that.

Amendment agreed to.

Chairman

As acceptance of this amendment involves the deletion of section 4, amendments Nos. 16 to 49, inclusive, cannot be moved.

Mr. Broughan

On a point of information, my amendment No. 27 would have provided for the commission to have an annual review of the fees. Will that be included in the new section?

Mr. N. Dempsey

No, it was felt it would be restrictive for the commission to have to do that on an annual basis by the commission.

Mr. Broughan

I was thinking abut the CER's role in the market as regards contractors. Would it not be good to give it a remit? For example, tradespeople will say they charge €40 per hour. Who has determined this? One can argue that is the market price.

Mr. N. Dempsey

This relates to the fees and charges imposed by the designated body.

Amendments Nos. 16 to 49, inclusive, not moved.

Section 4 deleted.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 50:

In page 11, before section 5, to insert the following new section:

"5.—The Act of 1999 is amended in section 14(1) by the substitution for paragraphs (c) and (d) of the following paragraphs:

‘(c) to supply electricity to final customers which is available to the supplier and which is, in whole or in part, produced by the supplier using, or purchased by the supplier from, renewable, sustainable or alternative forms of energy, in accordance with any trading arrangements provided for in regulations made from time to time by the Commission under section 9(1)(d),

Yes, but if the Deputy compares the two, he will see that one mentions "in whole or in part", while the other mentions "in aggregate", which covers a longer period.

Mr. Durkan

The Minister has just given us important information. When we discussed that issue previously, the Chairman may recall the theory put forward was that the surplus to requirements would be sufficient to meet that provision in any event. Of course, that is not true. Every time one enters a new unreliable source of energy, one automatically affects the surplus to requirements and the amber gamblers might come on at a faster rate. It is critical that the Minister gives an indication as to what is deemed to be the perfect blend. In my observations one needs at least one reliable source of generating electricity in the market for up to 1,000 MW that can be called upon or stood down, as necessary. If that does not happen, the answer to what is the reliable source will be a multiplicity of various renewables and perhaps the clean coal option, of which there seems to be plenty available.

We need a source that is available because if our market grows, the excess to requirement at present will not guarantee supply in the event of more wind, which is the unreliable source, coming into the market. I agree with the Minister that wind could supply the demand, but as soon as the wind goes down, one needs a back up to meet the demand and also to allow for a surplus to requirements.

Amendment agreed to.

SECTION 5.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 51 and 52 are similar and may be discussed together.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 51:

In page 12, line 22, to delete "Part 1" and substitute "paragraphs 3 and 4".

These are minor technical amendments because of a drafting error in the Bill. Paragraphs 3 and 4 of Schedule 3, as inserted in the Bill, addressed primary energy saving and use of the term "part" is an incorrect technical reference to what are correctly termed paragraphs.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 52:

In page 12, line 26, to delete "Part 1" and substitute "paragraphs 3 and 4".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 53:

In page 14, line 14, after "Energy” to insert “Regulation and”.

I have nothing further to add to the points I made on similar amendments.

Mr. N. Dempsey

We will consider this again before Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 54:

In page 14, lines 18 to 28, to delete paragraph (c) and substitute the following:

"(c) in section 14(1) by the substitution for paragraph (d) (inserted by section 5 of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006) the following paragraph:

‘(d) to supply electricity to final customers which is available to the supplier and which is, in whole or in part, produced by the supplier using, or purchased by the supplier from high efficiency combined heat and power or electricity purchased, in place of such electricity, in accordance with the trading arrangements provided for in regulations to be made by the Commission under section 9(1)(d),’,”.

This is a technical amendment and follows the ministerial amendment already made inserting a new paragraph 14(1)(c) and 14(1)(d) to the Act of 1999 dealing with the balancing regime for the licensing of CHP and green suppliers. This is a consequential amendment as amendment No. 50 was agreed.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 5, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 55:

In page 14, line 42, after "functions" to insert "or arising from specific circumstances".

Mr. N. Dempsey

I already have the power which the Deputy is seeking to give me.

Mr. Durkan

The Minister states he already has the power but I wonder if it covers all eventualities. My amendment might be helpful as specific circumstances may arise. The final sentence in subsection (1) of section 10A of the Act of 1999 would read: ". . . the Minister may give such general policy directions to the Commission, as she or she considers appropriate, to be followed by the Commission in the exercise of its functions or arising from specific circumstances".

Mr. N. Dempsey

The section covers all eventualities. One could end up having a legal argument if one inserts "arising from specific circumstances".

Mr. Durkan

I accept that.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 56 and 60 are related and may be discussed together.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 56:

In page 14, between lines 42 and 43, to insert the following:

"(2) These general policy directions shall include targets for energy security, energy sustainability, energy and fuel poverty and retail and wholesale pricing.".

The Minister, on behalf of the Government, has a central role in energy policy and I am asking him not to be afraid to use policy directives. On foot of the debates on energy, I consider that we should spell out key targets. I presume the energy paper will finally appear on a Sunday evening at 5 p.m. in order that Members cannot formulate a response to it.

When the Minister granted a hike of €3 in the television licence fee, he published it at 4.10 p.m. On another occasion when I was coming out of the Laois-Dublin match, having seen the Dubs perform extremely well, I came across another statement the Minister had issued at 4 p.m. on a Sunday evening. With that timing, there is very little the Opposition can do. The Minister must start to give indicative targets and is it not appropriate that this is mentioned in legislation at this stage? Energy security is a concern in the light of the growing use of gas for producing electricity when 85% to 90% of gas comes from abroad.

I presume the Commission for Energy Regulation will study very carefully the paper issued by the Minister in terms of energy security, sustainability, including the use of green energy, and energy discrimination,which is a core issue for the Labour Party. We could set the parameters on pricing and other key areas and give some general targets to which the CER would operate. The effect of my amendment would be to spell out targets to the CER. Energy resources along with climate change is extremely important. In the neighbouring island, energy is the number one political issue.

The Minister stated that we have reached the 13.2% target for wind energy. I commend him for this and he may take a bow in this regard. The question is how to proceed in the future. The Minister has stated that he would set a new target, possibly of 15% or whatever, for 2010. Why not begin to set targets in a transparent and open fashion for 2015 or possibly for 2030?

Energy is an area in which one must think in terms of decades. The Minister has mentioned the significant decisions he might make regarding the amount of megawattage from a particular type of generator. Incidentally, his comments regarding wind and nuclear energy could also be applied to Moneypoint or any big generator within our system whose output is significant in the context of the gap between the total market and actual generation. I refer to the issue of generation adequacy, which was discussed in a fine report produced by the new EirGrid company for the committee a few months ago.

Has the time come for the Minister to set out such targets? I suggest the Houses of the Oireachtas might consider or review such targets every three years or so, as matters change fairly drastically. For example, it would have been beneficial to have had a target for biofuels. The Minister must agree his predecessor did zilch in this respect. He not only did zilch, he did 0% of zilch regarding biofuels. For a long time after the present Minister took office, he could only talk about 0.00001% and missed the EU target. The Minister missed the EU target last year and the year before, will miss it this year and next year and only has a slim chance of achieving the 2010 target.

It would be better to set targets as policy directions for the Commission for Electricity Regulation, as suggested in amendment No. 60 which pertains to the performance of the regulator. As the election approaches, people may not consider this to be a life or death issue as they do health or crime. According to the polls, crime is considered to be the number one issue, followed closely by health. Nevertheless, a positive feature is that increasingly, many thoughtful people are thinking about energy policies. In this context, it would be fair to provide the CER with a wide remit regarding the key issues and to begin to frame targets.

As a final point, the Chair will recall that the committee discussed its report on energy at length. Members decided to set ambitious targets, including a 50% target for electricity from sustainable resources by 2030.

Chairman

They did.

Mr. Broughan

Members set a 50:30 target after much discussion on the issue. To be fair, Deputy Fiona O'Malley was present when members discussed whether it would be too risky to opt for targets of 60%, 70% or 80%.

Chairman

She has gone home crying.

Mr. Broughan

She has gone out canvassing. The discussion centred on whether it would be fair to consider such targets. These are difficult issues. For example, it becomes extremely embarrassing for a Government which sets targets and then misses them hopelessly, as has the Government. Nevertheless, the time may have come for such targets to be set.

The target set by the Swedish Government grabbed the attention of most. In one sense, it is easy for Sweden to lay down the law in respect of renewable sources as it has hydroelectric and nuclear power. Ireland does not have the benefit of such a diversified electricity system. Nevertheless, the Swedish Government appears to be giving serious consideration to the amazing target of making Sweden oil-free by 2020, in terms of zero imports of primary energy. While many Swedes assert it will not be reached, there is that target.

As for the CER, the Minister could state that he will introduce a White Paper and will bring in another energy Bill based on it. However, as the CER has such a core role, it would be useful to provide it with policy headings, which are similar to those contained in the committee's report. I should have mentioned this at the outset. Moreover, the relevant targets are also similar to those which were included in the committee's report, on which members worked hard and thought deeply. Members did not simply throw such targets out willy-nilly, because setting and hopelessly missing a target such as the Swedish example would be very disheartening for a community and a country. Hence, these issues are significant and members should begin to consider them in legislative terms and should induce the Dáil to discuss them. While our colleagues in the Green Party are not present, they tabled a reasonable Bill in respect of climate change which suggested that an occasional session should be held on the subject. As climate change appears to be taking place and will have a major impact, the Dáil should regularly address such matters.

Mr. Durkan

This is an important section because this amendment, as well as the two previous amendments tabled by the Minister roughly pertain to the same area. As for amendment No. 56, it is important that policy directions should include targets. As previously stated, such targets should identify and support the extent to which one can embellish the national grid with variance while simultaneously ensuring its security. Everything will depend on this.

Moreover, in respect of amendment No. 60 it is critical to have a short, medium and long-term policy. We may be obliged to change policy overnight as an international event may cause us to focus our attentions very quickly in the short term. In the course of drawing up the committee's report, I emphasised the foolhardiness of relying on long-term aspects of policy in the hope there is ample time. This may not be the case as events can happen overnight. Even in the past few days, energy prices have risen dramatically because of an international glitch that may or may not be serious. Ireland could experience an enormous shift overnight or in the space of a couple of weeks, for which it must provide. In such an event, the obligation to produce energy remains. Hence, the alternatives regarding renewable energies must be developed. However, as this will take time and cannot be done overnight, we must also have a fall-back position along the lines referred to by the Minister and Deputy Broughan. The critical issue is how to introduce one variant into the system while removing another and simultaneously maintaining the integrity of the grid. This would be a tricky operation.

Incidentally, I congratulate the Minister on the introduction of the research and development aspects of the policy which he has already announced. I hope they will be advanced further because this is a critical issue. Nothing has happened for years, although all other countries did many things in this regard. Deputy Broughan is quite correct to note that some of our European colleagues speak in grandiose terms about their capabilities. They like to omit the fact of their possession of a nuclear burner under the counter. I refer to Sweden in this regard and the Finns are at it also. All have access to nuclear power and will have access to the grid. Such countries will enjoy much readier access to regional European grids or to a pan-European grid than will Ireland. The problem is that Ireland's development requirements are at least as great as those of any other European country. Hence, the increase in its power and energy requirements from present levels will be anything up to 10% greater than those of many other European countries, given its rate of development. Hopefully, this rate of development will continue.

Ireland requires energy security, must introduce renewable sources, must maintain its grid and must recognise that it will be obliged to build interconnectors. As the east-west interconnectors will use direct current instead of alternating current, the extent to which power may be transmitted will be limited in comparison to the equivalent capacity across land borders. There is a significant difference in this regard. I only learned of this limitation during the latter stages of the discussions held by the committee. The delegation from EirGrid introduced this subject and pointed out that the two methods are not identical. While a heavy line may cross two or three countries with impunity, it requires slightly more technology to go under the sea and it limits the load. These two amendments have merit and should be incorporated somewhere in the course of the final product.

Mr. N. Dempsey

It is dangerous to put specifics into a Bill because things change or we could omit something. If we then wish to do something about this omission, we end up in difficulties and are forced to pass more legislation. I am not opposed to the principle of amendment No. 56. I am not being political when I say that even Deputy Broughan's amendment refers to the inclusion of targets for energy security, energy sustainability, energy and fuel poverty and retail and wholesale pricing. Competitiveness also needs to be included if one intends to go down through such a list.

Mr. Broughan

The Minister could change that and include competitiveness.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I am making this point in an effort to be constructive. I will examine this matter. Despite being a serious and considered amendment, amendment No. 56 omits any reference to competitiveness. Therefore, it may also have overlooked other matters. In respect of the principle behind Deputy Broughan's amendment, I will examine the matter before Report Stage because it merits consideration.

In respect of the second part, Deputy Broughan, to a certain extent, anticipated what I was going to say about it when he made his points. I intend to introduce ambitious but reasonable targets that are based on reality in the energy policy document either at Green Paper or White Paper stage. Although I do not agree with all or part of the reports published by this committee, I acknowledge the work that goes into them. In particular, I acknowledge the considerable amount of work that went into the committee's energy report. Once the policy document, which will be influenced by the committee's report, is in place and in the light of the setting of certain targets for the period up to 2020 by the Government, there is nothing to stop the committee from telling the Government that it thinks it should reach a particular target in a certain way. This is a good use of the committee's time and a good way of holding people accountable.

If Deputy Broughan is willing to withdraw these amendments, I will examine them for Report Stage. The Deputy can always resubmit them if I cannot come up with something. I am inserting the caveat regarding possible dangers in respect of amendment No. 56 but possibly we can include the wording “and such other matters as the Minister or Government may decide” at the end of the amendment, which would cover the point I am making. However, I will examine the matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 57:

In page 14, line 49, to delete "of this Act" and substitute "to this Act".

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 58 not moved.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 59:

This was done the other day without debate.

Mr. N. Dempsey

We will examine the matter.

Chairman

We will leave the matter with the Minister.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 60 not moved.

Section 6, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 7.

Amendments Nos. 61 and 62 not moved.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 63:

In page 15, to delete lines 45 to 47.

This is a strange formula, stating that an interconnector owned by the board is part of the transmission system. We have considered the possibility of a merchant proposal for the major investment needed for the east-west interconnectors. We discussed this earlier. Why do we need to repeal and replace a section in the 1999 Act? I do not know how we will arrange this with the United Kingdom but it is important that Ireland is clearly in control of this infrastructure.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The existing text allows any person or body, including Eirgrid, to own an interconnector that is not part of the transmission system. The Deputy's point is catered for in the Bill. The amendment was initially tabled on the basis that the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 and SI 445 of 2000, as amended, defined the transmission system as owned by the board or the ESB. The Deputy was trying to ensure that Eirgrid could own an interconnector. On the basis of the Bill as it stands, Eirgrid can own one.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 64 and 65 not moved.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 66:

In page 16, line 24, after "Commission" to insert the following:

"sanctioned by the Minister and approved by Motion of Dáil Éireann".

Whether the syntax of my amendment is appropriate remains to be seen. The decision is of sufficient importance, given its impact on the generating system, that it should not be left to the commission. It should be sanctioned by the Minister and approved by the Houses of the Oireachtas. The ESB decided to close down Tarbert generating station. The mix of electricity generated by a variety of sources will be determined by the number of generating outlets available. It may be possible to convert existing infrastructure to a new generating facility. I note that I neglected to include the same phrase after section 4(B)(3) and I intend to reintroduce the amendment on Report Stage to include section 4(B)(3). The Minister should be identified as having overall responsibility for determination of policy, as mentioned earlier. Policy should be determined solely by the Minister because having the commission develop policies would cause problems.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The amendment is not necessary. I understand what the Deputy is trying to ensure, namely, that the Minister makes decisions on interconnectors. Including the authorisation formalities for construction of an interconnector within the Minister's remit would be out of keeping with all other provisions on the granting of licences, authorisations and consent for construction or operation of energy infrastructure by the CER. This would undermine the statutory independence of the CER which is included in the Electricity Regulation Act 1999. Section 18 of the 1999 Act states, "The Minister shall specify by order the criteria in accordance with which an application for an authorisation may be determined by the Commission". The section also refers to:

(a) the safety and security of the electricity system, electric plant and domestic lines,

(b) the protection of the environment including the limitation of emissions to the atmosphere, water or land,

(d) the efficient use of energy,

(e) the nature of the primary source of energy to be used by a generating station,

The same criteria apply to interconnectors. The CER will not decide to locate interconnectors without reference to the Government. In fact, the Government will make the decision. Section 16(5) of the Bill states:

The Commission may, with the consent of the Minister, secure the construction of an interconnector or interconnectors by one or more of the following means:

(a) a competitive tender;

(b) an authorisation granted to a person.

The licensing of interconnectors is a separate regulatory function and must be carried out by the CER.

Mr. Durkan

Section 7(4) states:

"(1) A person shall not—

(a) construct or reconstruct a generating station for 20 the purpose of supply to final customers, or

(b) construct an interconnector,

unless an appropriate authorisation has been granted to the person by the Commission.",

The Minister is correct in what he stated but there is a void between the two. All eventualities are not covered and I urge the Minister to examine this between now and Report Stage.

Let us suppose someone decides to construct a nuclear generating station in the middle of Cork.

Chairman

On the south side, I hope.

Mr. Durkan

I wonder if we realise the magnitude of the task that faces us. The commission and the CER have different responsibilities. Those who must seek election may find the situation unpalatable. The Minister may examine this and find my amendment unnecessary but if I were standing in the Minister's shoes I would be inclined to include it as a safeguard.

Chairman

Will the Minister examine it before Report Stage?

Mr. N. Dempsey

Yes.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 67:

In page 16, subsection (5), line 37, to delete "insertion, after" and substitute "insertion after".

Amendment agreed to.

Chairman

Amendment No. 69 is an alternative to amendment No. 68 and they will be discussed together.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 68:

In page 17, to delete lines 1 to 9.

In principle, I prefer competitive processes. Having a vast system with few operators leads to particular problems. If one examines recent history, one sees we have not done as well as other countries in areas such as 3G licences. The British Government went through an auction process and raised a great deal of money for the Exchequer. We ended up with a beauty contest from which we received far less money. We also held it too late when people had become concerned about difficulties with 3G technology and the mass market, rightly so. I realise energy is different but that is the context of my concerns.

The Bill states the construction of an interconnector may be secured through: "an authorisation granted to a person without a prior competitive tender where the person demonstrates, to the satisfaction of the Commission, that the granting of an authorisation, subject to such conditions as the Commission deems necessary and appropriate, is in the long term interests of final customers".

I am concerned about transparency. Last Friday, I criticised an element of the Minister's administration in Clonakilty. Actions regarding the transfer of an agency either were or seemed to be without transparency. That is a risk when using this type of process rather than a simple, competitive process.

Mr. Durkan

I will also consider the Deputy's amendment before Report Stage. It may be the way to ensure it must come back——

Mr. Durkan

It will also ensure we comply with European legislation.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 70:

In page 17, line 13, after "plan" to insert "following a competitive tender process".

This concerns the same matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 71 to 73, inclusive, are related and will be discussed together.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 71:

In page 17, line 25, after "Commission" to insert "with the approval of the Minister & Dáil Éireann".

This amendment is very similar to what we have just discussed and is proposed for the same protective reasons.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 72 and 73 not moved.

Section 7, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 8.

Chairman

Amendments. Nos. 74 and 76 are related and will be discussed together.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 74:

In page 19, line 3, after "threatened" to insert "with Dáil approval".

These amendments have similar connotations to those we have just discussed. This is an enormous area of responsibility that will grow over time. No Minister may want full responsibility in this area and it could be dangerous to leave it to the CER or anybody else. The Minister and Dáil Éireann may want that option. I may reintroduce this amendment, if necessary, on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No.75:

In page 19, line 11, after "necessary" to insert the following:

", and the person to whom the order is directed shall comply with the direction".

This relates to the fact——

Mr. N. Dempsey

I will accept this amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 76 not moved.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 77:

In page 19, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following:

"(4) In the event of a sudden crisis in the energy market the Minister is responsible for the maintenance and full functioning of the national energy system."

This amendment relates to emergency measures and it is clear that the Minister needs significant powers in this regard. We have outlined the process, step by step, whereby the Minister can give orders to the commission to keep the energy system working. It is also important that the political responsibility is clear, that the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources is responsible if something happens to the energy system.

I believe strongly in ministerial responsibility. It was my great predecessor Conor Cruise O'Brien from Dublin North-East who first laid out the idea of ministerial responsibility and personal responsibility for Departments. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, for example, should have resigned several weeks ago. In that context, it is strange having a Minister around who does not fulfil some of the criteria for being a Minister.

My amendment inserts a provision whereby, in the event of a sudden crisis in the energy market, the Minister is responsible for the maintenance and full functioning of the national energy system. In other words, the buck stops with the Minister. We all remember the time when my former party leader, Michael O'Leary, who died tragically recently, ran the country when there was a severe Christmas snow storm. He became known as the Minister for snow. He was the Minister responsible during that crisis. The Taoiseach at the time——

Mr. N. Dempsey

The local authorities are still waiting for the snow money.

Mr. Broughan

The former Taoiseach, Dr. Garret Fitzgerald——

Mr. Durkan

It is just as well there has not been a fall of snow since because they would be still waiting for it.

Mr. Broughan

If a similar situation developed tomorrow or there was some other major crisis, we want to make sure that the Minister is held responsible. I believe in ministerial responsibility and many are of the view the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should have resigned recently. When a major crisis happens on a Minister's watch and in his or her area, he or she should be held responsible.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Deputies often mix up accountability and responsibility. The responsibility for making sure that the energy system operates well and the market operates effectively lies with the Commission for Energy Regulation, the transmission system operators and so forth. I am accountable to the House and must answer Deputies' questions on the general functioning of such bodies, but not on specific decisions they make. If the lights go out next year or at some other point in the future, the bodies responsible are the CER which deals with the security of supply and EirGrid which deals with the transmission system. I have no doubt that I, or my successor, will be in the House, accounting for their actions.

The amendment makes it very clear what the Deputy is attempting to do. I do not mind being Minister and answering questions in the House, but I am damned if I will go to the national control centre to take over the running of the grid or to generate electricity if it is decided——

I move amendment No. 80:

Any untoward matters are automatically forwarded to the committee.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 9, as amended, agreed to.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 83:

In page 20, before section 10, but in Part 3, to insert the following new section:

10.—Section 2 of the Act of 1999 is amended in subsection (1) by the insertion of the following definition after the definition of "Minister":

"‘natural gas fitting' means any appliance, apparatus or other thing including associated pipework and flueing which is used or designed to be used by—

(a) a domestic customer, or

(b) such class or classes of industrial or commercial customer as the Commission may specify from time to time,

in connection with the consumption or use of natural gas whether the appliance, apparatus or thing is the property of a natural gas undertaking or otherwise;".

This is a minor technical amendment following from a drafting error in section 11 which introduced a new subsection 91(6) to the 1999 Act. On being brought into force by ministerial order, that subsection would have had the effect of having the 1999 Act amend itself. The insertion of a new section into the Bill and the removal of the definition of "natural gas fitting" from the revised section 11 will address the error.

Mr. Durkan

An amendment I submitted earlier anticipated this issue. A gas system could operate in tandem with other heating systems. I ask the Minister to reconsider my amendment in the context of this section.

Amendment agreed to.

SECTION 10.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 84:

In page 21, line 2, after "the" where it secondly occurs to insert "supply,".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 85:

In page 21, line 15, after "Minister" to insert "who shall report to the Oireachtas".

I will withdraw my amendment but may resubmit it on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Chairman

Amendments No. 86 and 87 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 86:

In page 21, line 23, after "pipelines" to insert the following:

"including all pipeline terminals and refineries associated with the recovery, bringing ashore and processing of Ireland's onshore or offshore natural gas resources".

We are now discussing the sections pertaining to natural gas safety. The Minister has completely reorganised a significant number of the commission's functions with regard to natural gas safety.

Arising from the debate over the Corrib field, Mr. Andy Pyle attended the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources yesterday, as part of a delegation from the Irish Offshore Operators Association. The one o'clock news reported the Rossport five as saying the mediation process had come to an end. Has it come to an end in the sense that Mr. Cassells is preparing a report which will finally resolve the matter or has it concluded without agreement? Could we use this Bill and the key role of the CER in invigilating natural gas safety to help solve this seemingly intractable problem?

This time last year, when we were allegedly on holidays, the issue consumed a lot of our time. I recall dashing around to meet the men in Cloverhill Prison and trying to persuade the Minister to call a meeting of the committee. The past year has seen a series of protests, although some hopeful sounds have been heard since Christmas.

We have considered the Advantica and Connolly reports and the findings of the Minister's technical advisory group. The CER could have a fundamental role in these matters, not only at Corrib but also at the Dunquin field, if the latter turns out to be as good as suggested yesterday by Providence Resources. Perhaps the CER would call the shots and lay down the law on it. I do not know whether the Minister looked at the commentary from this committee. Yesterday Mr. Andy Pyle spoke about the letter he sent us a few months ago on his apology to the people of Rossport and he said he had an open mind on the way forward, given that this is so significant for Ireland as the intermediary fuel as we, I hope, move towards a renewable future. Given that we need the local community happily on board and supporting the development he is open to doing it as they want it to be done, bringing the gas through the inlet or whatever solution would resolve this. We must resolve this above all for Mayo, Connaught and the north west generally, about which we have had many discussions. We were unhappy here once with Bord Gáis's criteria for supplying towns such as Ballina and Castlebar. We want to get away from that nonsense and offer the people of the north west, and I hope the entire east and midlands, what we have, a gas network.

Amendment No. 87 inserts: "including all onshore and off-shore exploration and recovery facilities". Perhaps I did not get it in at the right line. I was trying to see if there is a way we can encompass this controversy in a helpful and productive way that would help end it. Deputy Durkan began the debate yesterday by saying the Corrib gas field was discovered in 1996. It is now 2006 and we must examine this seriously. Could the Minister comment on the breaking news? Is the mediation finished or have people misunderstood it? Will it be possible to resolve this? Mr. Peter Cassells is of the most fantastic ability and integrity and I hope he will be able to resolve this matter, as he did so many other matters that were important to our community.

Mr. Durkan

I support the amendment. It is generated by the need to address the issues that have caused the furore around the Corrib gas field. It was discovered ten years ago and ten years later we have not developed the expertise, speed and resolution to work out a regime that would receive support and would not require ongoing intervention by the Minister. I do not say the Minister's intervention was negative, but it was necessary. The way the situation developed was farcical. People's opinions became increasingly polarised and energy was wasted in endlessly pursuing the question whether the product should be ashore, whether it was safe, whether the permits had been sought and complied with. There was the daft situation in which the pipeline already in place was cut up, followed by a debate about restoring it. There was an ongoing racket from the local community. It is not good for our image to allow such events. I do not know whether the rest of the Bill incorporates sufficient requirements. If we rush through this Bill today, in two years' time we well be reviled for failing to do this properly. Let us do it properly.

Chairman

Will the Deputy speak only on the amendments?

Mr. Durkan

I am speaking on the amendments. This is on pipelines, terminals, refineries, associated recovery and bringing ashore. That is what it is about. I want to express the hope that we do not have a repetition. To those who have been consorting with the idea of building a nuclear reactor here, if it operated on the same basis as the bringing ashore of the Corrib gas, we would be the laughing stock of the continent and the world. People would come from miles around to see how we operate.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I am not being smart, but the reason we have no amendments on this Bill on the upstream facilities is because we did not want to impose many amendments on the committee without giving them due consideration and favour. We are looking and we are engaged. I accept Deputy Broughan's bona fides in putting down this amendment and the issue must be addressed. Apart from the fact that there are ongoing talks about responsibility for this and, as the Deputy said in his amendment, the locus for future management of safety issues, an amount of work needs to be done on the upstream systems. For this reason, rather than trying to rush it or add more to this Bill we decided to go ahead. As the Deputies generously acknowledged on Second Stage, we need to move forward on the downstream safety issues. Rather than delay the Bill further, when we published we said we would deal with this as is and the upstream gas pipelines will probably be dealt with in a separate Bill. I hope we will pass this and will not revisit it in the autumn. There is a need to do that at the end of the year.

We have agreed criteria on the upstream pipeline as a result of the Advantica and TAG reports. I agree with the Deputies that it is important that we bring the gas ashore. It is in the national interest. I do not know if that can be done with 100% agreement from local people. Some have set their faces against its coming ashore and being processed on shore and my only information is that Mr. Cassells has made a general statement. He has done a long and patient job and spoken and listened to as many people as possible. He said he could not take this process any further and will report to me over the next couple of weeks.

That has not been my experience of the people I met.

Mr. N. Dempsey

It has been mine. People said they wanted a resolution to the problem but every time we tried to find a resolution or come to some kind of reasonable compromise, they moved the goal posts. Leaving that aside, the concerns they raised about safety have been fully addressed. One of those concerns is the one the Deputy raises now. I have tried to be open, listen carefully to what is being said to me by the various people and respond positively. Safety was the major concern and the results of the safety review were that somebody should be responsible and that the site should be focused in one location. I accepted that. It is one of the recommendations in the Advantica and TAG reports and is the reason I am committed to introducing legislation on this. Deputies Broughan and Durkan agreed to support that legislation when we discussed the matter in the House and facilitate its passage. No gas will go through any pipeline from the Corrib until all the safety recommendations are in place, and that includes the legislation.

Chairman

Given that new legislation is to be introduced to address these matters, it is my understanding that these two amendments can be withdrawn.

Mr. Broughan

I will withdraw the amendments but may resubmit them.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 87 not moved.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 88:

In page 21, line 44, after "necessary" to insert the following:

"provided the Minister and the Oireachtas have been informed".

The amendment refers to "the Minister and the Oireachtas" but I should have referred only to the Oireachtas because the Minister is referred to in the earlier section. The thinking was along the same lines to cover that area.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Durkan

I move amendment No. 89:

In page 22, line 10, after "may" to insert the following:

"with the approval of the Minister who shall seek the approval of Dáil Éireann".

I will withdraw the amendment but I may come back to the issue on Report Stage for the same reason.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 10, as amended, agreed to.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 90:

In page 22, before section 11, to insert the following new section:

"11.—The Act of 1999 is amended by the insertion after section 9E (inserted by section 4) of the following sections:

‘9F.—(1) (a) The Commission may appoint a person to be the designated body for the purposes of this section and such body may be referred to as a Gas Safety Supervisory Body.

(b) Where the Commission has not appointed a person to be the designated body, or the designated body is, in the opinion of the Commission, no longer able to carry out its functions under this section, the Commission may, with the consent of the Minister, appoint an employee of the Commission to carry out those functions on a temporary basis.

(2) (a) In appointing a person to be the designated body in accordance with subsection (1) the Commission shall have regard to the costs likely to be incurred——

(i) by the Commission in carrying out its functions under this section, and

(ii) by final customers.

(b) Paragraph 16 of Schedule 1 shall apply to any costs incurred by the Commission in carrying out its functions under this section.

(c) In paragraph (b) the words “any costs incurred by the Commission” includes any moneys provided by the Commission to the designated body, following its appointment under subsection (1), to facilitate that body in establishing and carrying out its functions.

(3) A person shall not be appointed to be the designated body, or if so appointed shall cease to act as the designated body, if that person is or becomes a trade association or performs representative functions on behalf of persons working in the gas industry.

(4) A person who does not for the time being stand appointed as the designated body shall not describe himself or herself as a Gas Safety Supervisory Body or in a manner likely to suggest that such person is the designated body for the purposes of this section.

(5) (a) The Commission shall publish criteria (in this section referred to as ‘the criteria’) relating to—

(i) gas safety supervision,

(ii) the safety standards to be achieved and maintained by gas installers, and

(iii) the procedures to be operated by a person appointed as the designated body.

(b) The criteria document to be published in connection with paragraph (a) shall include, but shall not be limited to, the following information:

(i) the procedures to be adopted by the designated body for the registration of its members;

(ii) the procedures to be followed by a person applying for membership of the designated body;

(iii) the services which the designated body may carry out on behalf of its members;

(iv) the standards of training and safety to be achieved and maintained by members of the designated body and the procedures to be followed by the designated body in monitoring such standards;

(v) the procedures to be followed by the designated body for the inspection of any work carried out by one of its members;

(vi) the procedures to be followed by the designated body in connection with the suspension or revocation of the membership of one of its members;

(vii) the matters to be covered by a completion certificate in respect of different categories or classes of gas works and the circumstances in which each such class of certificate shall be used;

(viii) the type of accounts to be kept by the designated body, and the manner in which such accounts should be audited;

(ix) the method by which the accounts kept under subparagraph (viii) should be published; and

(x) the procedures to be followed, and the records to be maintained, by the designated body or its members (where appropriate), in connection with subparagraphs (i) to (ix).

(6) The Commission shall not appoint a person to be the designated body unless it is satisfied that the person is capable of complying with the criteria, and as respects each person who is a member (in this section referred to as a registered gas installer) of the designated body that the body has, or will have if appointed, the capability and entitlement to—

(a) inspect any work carried out by a registered gas installer,

(b) monitor the training and standards of a person who is a registered gas installer,

(c) suspend the membership of a registered gas installer in the designated body where that registered gas installer is the subject of an investigation by that body into whether—

(i) work carried out by the registered gas installer concerned is unsafe or otherwise of an unsatisfactory standard, or (ii) the registered gas installer concerned has acted in contravention of the criteria to a material extent,

(d) suspend or revoke the membership of a registered gas installer in the designated body where the body has established that any of the matters specified in subparagraphs (i) or (ii) of paragraph (c) apply as respects the installer concerned.

(7) (a) Where the designated body decides to suspend or revoke the membership of a registered gas installer in the body, the designated body shall inform, in writing, both—

(i) the Commission, and

(ii) the registered gas installer concerned,

of its decision to suspend or revoke the membership of a registered gas installer in the designated body.

(b) A registered gas installer, the subject of a decision under paragraph (a), may submit an appeal, in writing, of the decision to the Commission within 28 days of being informed of the decision.

(8) (a) The Commission shall appoint one or more persons (“Appeals Officer”) to—

(i) duly consider, and

(ii) furnish a report to the Commission on,

any appeal submitted by a registered gas installer relating to a decision made by the designated body to suspend or revoke his or her membership in the designated body,

(b) The Commission shall have regard to the report of the Appeals Officer under paragraph (a) and shall advise the designated body, the Appeals Officer and the registered gas installer concerned of its decision to confirm, vary or set aside the decision of the body,

(i) it relates to any matter the subject of proceedings before a court or other tribunal, until those proceedings are determined, or

(ii) it is not submitted to the Commission within 28 days of the registered gas installer concerned being informed of the decision.

(9) Notwithstanding the generality of subsections (7) and (8), the Commission may specify the procedures to be followed by—

(a) the Appeals Officer in considering the appeal,

(b) the Appeals Officer in drafting his or her report to the Commission,

(d) a registered gas installer who is the subject of a decision by the designated body to revoke his or her membership in the designated body,

in the criteria published under subsection (5).

(10) (a) The tariff of fees and charges imposed by the designated body relating to—

(i) membership of a gas installer in the body,

(ii) registration of a gas installer as a registered gas installer,

(iii) inspections of gas works, and

(iv) any service provided to a member of the designated body by or on behalf of the body,

shall be subject to the approval of the Commission,

(b) The designated body may impose fees and charges under paragraph (a) of different amounts in respect of different categories of membership, registration or service as the Commission may specify in the criteria,

(c) All expenses incurred by the designated body in carrying out any of its functions under this section shall be defrayed by the designated body out of funds at its disposal which are obtained in accordance with paragraph (a).

(11) Where a registered gas installer carries out any gas works, the works shall be carried out in accordance with any safety requirements which the Commission may specify in the criteria.

(12) Where a registered gas installer carries out any gas works, the registered gas installer concerned shall issue the appropriate completion certificate to the person who requested that the works be carried out.

(13) A person on whose behalf a registered gas installer has carried out any gas works may request, on grounds specified in writing, that the designated body arrange for the carrying out of an inspection of those gas works.

(14) The designated body shall, after it receives a request under subsection (13), arrange for the carrying out of an inspection as soon as practicable, and following its completion, shall advise, in writing, both the registered gas installer who carried out the gas works and the person who requested that the inspection be carried out, as to whether the gas works meet the safety requirements of the Commission.

(15) Subject to subsection (16), the designated body shall be entitled to payment of fees and charges in respect of the inspection of gas works under subsection (14), which fees and charges shall be no greater than is set out in the tariff of fees and charges published by the designated body.

(16) The tariff of fees and charges referred to in subsection (15) shall not have effect until approved by the Commission, which approval shall not be given unless the Commission is satisfied that the fees and charges are calculated on the basis of the reasonable costs attributable to the carrying out of inspections under this section.

(17) The Commission shall specify a form of completion certificate to be used for the purposes of this section and may specify different forms for different circumstances or different classes of work and may make provision relating to—

(a) procedures to be followed, and

(b) records to be maintained,

by registered gas installers in connection with the issue of such certificates.

(18) (a) The Commission may conduct an inspection or audit of the designated body to verify compliance by the designated body with the requirements of this section, the terms and conditions of appointment and the criteria of the commission.

(b) The Commission may appoint a person to assist it in performing inspections or audits referred to in paragraph (a).

(19) The Commission may determine the appointment of the designated body—

(a) in accordance with the terms and conditions of the appointment,

(b) where the Commission is of the opinion that an act or default by the designated body is a cause of serious danger to the public, with immediate effect, or

(20) The Commission may appoint a person, including a person who is an employee of the designated body, to be an authorised officer for the purposes of carrying out inspections of the work—

(a) of a registered gas installer on any land where the authorised officer believes such work is being or has been carried out by such an installer, or

(b) which has been the subject of a completion certificate.

(21) A person appointed to be an authorised officer under subsection (20) shall on his or her appointment be furnished with a certificate of his or her appointment, and when exercising a power conferred by this section shall, if requested by any person thereby affected, produce such certificate to that person for inspection.

(22) A registered gas installer and every employee or independent contractor of a registered gas installer shall give all reasonable assistance to—

(a) an authorised officer in the exercise of his or her powers under this section, and

(b) the Commission in exercising its powers under subsection (18) including a person assisting the Commission pursuant to subsection (18).

(23) A person shall not obstruct—

(a) an authorised officer performing any function he or she is authorised to exercise or perform under this section,

(b) the Commission in exercising its powers under this section, or

(24) A person shall not—

(a) describe himself or herself as a registered gas installer,or

(b) describe himself or herself in a manner likely to suggest that he or she is a registered gas installer,

unless that person is a member of the designated body.

(25) A person who contravenes subsections (4), (23) or (24) is guilty of an offence and liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or to both.

(26) In this section—

‘completion certificate' means a certificate the form of which has been specified by the Commission under subsection (17);

‘designated body' means a person appointed under subsection (1) to be the designated body for the purposes of this section;

‘gas works' means works designated to be such under section 9G.

9G.—(1) The Commission, having consulted with such persons as it considers appropriate, and with the consent of the Minister, may by regulations designate a class or classes of works to be gas works.

(2) In this section "works" means work which is related to the installation, removal, repair or replacement of a natural gas fitting as defined by section 2 (as inserted by section 10 of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006).

(3) A person shall not carry out works which are gas works unless that person is—

(a) a registered gas installer,

(b) a gas transmission system operator carrying out its functions in accordance with the terms and conditions of the relevant licence,

(c) a gas distribution system operator carrying out its functions in accordance with the terms and conditions of the relevant licence,

(d) a gas emergency officer appointed under section 9I performing his or her duties, or

(e) a gas safety officer appointed under section 9J performing his or her functions under that section.

(4) A person who contravenes subsection (3) is guilty of an offence and liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or both.

9H.—(1) The Commission may, in the performance of its functions under paragraph (ea) and (eb) of section 9(1) make regulations relating to gas safety.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) regulations made under this section may provide for—

(a) specifications or requirements regarding the installation or maintenance of natural gas fittings, and

(b) the conditions to be fulfilled before natural gas may be connected or re-connected to any premises or part of any premises following the installation, maintenance, modification or repair of a natural gas fitting.

(3) Where the Commission propose to make regulations under this section, the Commission shall, before doing so, consult with the Minister, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and such other Minister of the Government (if any) as, in the opinion of the Commission, appears appropriate.

(4) A person who fails to comply with regulations made under this section is guilty of an offence under this section.

(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or to both.

9I.—(1) A transmission system operator or a distribution system operator in relation to natural gas may appoint a person to be a gas emergency officer for the purpose of this section.

(2) A gas emergency officer may, subject to the provisions of this section, enter and inspect any land (with force if he or she considers it necessary in the circumstances) without giving notice or obtaining the consent of any person, and here take such measures as the officer considers appropriate for the protection of any person or any property from any danger arising from natural gas.

(3) A person appointed under subsection (1) shall be furnished with a certificate of his or her appointment by the system operator making the appointment, and when exercising a power conferred by this section shall, if requested by any person thereby affected, produce such certificate to such person.

(4) A gas emergency officer may not exercise the powers conferred by this section unless he or she is of the opinion that there is or may be a danger to any person or property arising from—

(a) the use, misuse or leakage of natural gas, or

(b) a defect or possible defect in any pipeline or natural gas fitting.

(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), in exercising his or her powers under this section a gas emergency officer may—

(a) instruct any person to evacuate any place until such time as the premises are, in the opinion of the officer, safe,

(b) instruct any person to perform or refrain from performing any act, if in the opinion of the officer, the performance or non-performance of such act is necessary in order to reduce or prevent any danger arising from natural gas,

(d) interrupt or disconnect the supply of natural gas without notice.

(6) Where a gas emergency officer enters on land in pursuance of powers conferred by this section, the transmission system operator or the distribution system operator on whose behalf the entry was made shall ensure as soon as possible after the powers have been exercised under this section—

(a) that the land is left no less secure by reason of the entry,

(b) any damage caused by the gas emergency officer is made good or that compensation is paid to the occupier or owner of the land concerned.

(7) A person who—

(a) obstructs or impedes a gas emergency officer in the exercise of powers conferred by this section,

(b) fails or refuses to comply with an instruction given by a gas emergency officer under this section,

(d) turns on or reconnects the supply of natural gas which supply has been turned off or disconnected by a gas emergency officer, without the consent of a gas emergency officer,

is guilty of an offence.

(8) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (7) is liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or to both.

9J.—(1) The Commission may appoint a person to be a gas safety officer for the purposes of—

(a) this section,

(b) paragraph (ea) and (eb) of section 9(1), and

(2) A gas safety officer may, subject to the provisions of this section—

(a) enter and inspect any land (with force if he or she considers it necessary in the circumstances) without giving notice or obtaining the consent of any person, and there inspect any—

(i) natural gas pipeline,

(ii) natural gas installation or facility (including a storage facility),

(iii) natural gas fitting, or

(iv) ventilation fittings (whether mechanical or otherwise) associated with or required for the safe operation of a natural gas fitting,

and take such measures as the officer considers appropriate for the protection of any person or any property from any danger arising from natural gas,

(b) enter on any land at any reasonable time and there—

(i) make such inspections and carry out such tests as he or she thinks fit in relation to any activities in or on a premises or installation,

(ii) take any measurement or photograph or make any electrical or electronic recording which he or she considers necessary for the purposes of any such examination or inquiry,

(iii) require any relevant person in authority to produce to him or her such documents, records or materials as are in that person's possession or control relating to the matter under inquiry and to give to him or her such information as he or she may reasonably require in regard to such documents, record or materials,

(iv) inspect and copy or extract information from documents, records or materials produced to him or her under subparagraph (iii) or which he or she finds during the course of entry to premises,

(v) take samples of natural gas.

(3) A person appointed under subsection (1) shall be furnished with a certificate of his or her appointment by the Commission, and when exercising a power conferred by this section shall, if requested by any person thereby affected, produce such certificate to such person.

(4) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), in exercising his or her powers under this section, a gas safety officer may—

(a) instruct any person to evacuate any premises until such time as the premises are, in the opinion of the officer, safe,

(d) interrupt or disconnect the supply of natural gas without notice.

(5) Where a gas safety officer enters on land in pursuance of powers conferred by this section, the Commission shall ensure as soon as possible after the powers have been exercised under this section—

(a) that the land is left no less secure by reason of the entry,

(b) any damage caused by the gas safety officer is made good or that compensation is paid to the occupier or owner of the land concerned.

(6) A person who—

(a) obstructs or impedes a gas safety officer in the exercise of powers conferred by this section,

(b) fails or refuses to comply with an instruction given by a gas safety officer under this section,

(d) turns on or reconnects the supply of natural gas which supply has been turned off or disconnected by a gas safety officer, without the consent of a gas safety officer,

is guilty of an offence.

(7) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or to both.’.”.

Mr. Broughan

The Minister might explain the reason he tabled this amendment.

Mr. N. Dempsey

This new section replaces section 11. The Bill, as originally drafted by the Parliamentary Counsel, provided for parity in the text of the provisions relating to the establishment of designated bodies for electrical contractors and gas installers. That was thought to provide a consistency of approach in the establishment of each such body with obvious benefits accruing to the CER in terms of regulation. However, following further discussions with both the CER and BGE, a consensus was reached that given the serious public safety concerns relating to gas as a combustible substance and the less evolved nature of self-regulation within the gas industry in comparison to, say, the self-regulation of electrical contractors, it would be prudent to comprehensively amend this section to take account of these issues. It is important to note that the replacement of all of section 11 is necessary to retain the logical structure and sequence, which would be disrupted if each issue were to be addressed in the amended section 11. As with the replacement of section 4 with a new section, we are replacing section 11 with a new section because the Parliamentary Counsel decided this would be preferable given the large number of changes which are being made for good reasons.

Specifically, the deletion of the new section 9F of the Act of 1999, which was inserted by the original section 11, provides that the establishment of standards of training for gas installers will be a function of the commission. The determination of training standards is not a function that is appropriate to the CER because it has no expertise in this area. Such standards are already set by bodies such as the NSAI, through its gas technical standards committee, with regard to best international practice. Section 10A provides that a function of the commission will be the regulation of the activities of gas installers with respect to safety. Therefore, it is not necessary to amend the text of the Bill, as proposed, in regard electricity to reflect this. In other words, the standards are set by a different body.

A further measure is to provide that there will be only one designated body for the regulation of gas installers. This is provided for in the new section 9F(a) of the Act of 1999 and throughout the text of the new section. Given the highly combustible nature of gas and the associated public safety concerns about it, it is desirable that the activities of registered gas installers be more stringently controlled than those of electricity contractors. That can be facilitated with relative ease given the current state of the gas industry. There are approximately 4,000 to 5,000 gas installers currently operating in Ireland, 400 of whom are voluntarily registered with BGE as part of its ad hoc system of regulation of the gas industry. That compares with approximately 60,000 electrical contractors, with two self-regulating bodies each comprising approximately 2,500 members, they being either firms or individuals. Both BGE and the CER are favourably disposed to the proposal that there be only one designated body and there are no inherited impediments to this as there is with the electricity industry. In other words, we are proposing that there be one designated body because there is no legacy in that respect.

Provision for the recoupment of costs by the CER for any of the expenses it incurs as a result of establishing the designated body is simply to allow it to pay for the initial costs, as was mentioned earlier. Provision for the detailed specification of information to be supplied in the criteria document published by the commission is dealt with in section 9F(5). The criteria document is the principal means through which the commission will regulate gas safety supervision, the activities of gas installers and the procedures to be adhered to by the designated body. A detailed list of all information will be provided in that document. It will serve to copperfasten the importance of the document and provide for a more effective regulatory regime. Publication of the designated bodies is provided for.

I am seeking to amend the Minister's amendment. These are amendments to an amendment.

Chairman

I know they are.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 90:

In the inserted section H(1), after "safety", to insert the following:

"including all pipeline terminals and refineries associated with recovery, bringing ashore and processing of Ireland's onshore or off-shore natural gas resources".

I tabled these amendments on the basis on which I argued the case previously for the now defunct section 11 and the importance of ensuring upstream gas safety.

Why do we need to draw such a distinction between emergency officers and safety officers? Why is it not possible for a single group to have responsibility for this area? As the Minister said, gas is a much different product from electricity. It is not a visible product although it is a mechanism of transferring energy. Why could the office to be established not be an integrated office whereby safety officers when they have to deal with an emergency could act as emergency officers? Why is there a need for such a separation of functions?

Reference is made in the original section 11 to "specified gas works". I accept the Minister's point that all gas works must be designated because of serious concerns regarding gas safety. These are the main issues I wished to raise. I would prefer if the section referred to the ongoing problems upstream and the other issues I raised.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Mr. N. Dempsey

In case of an emergency, the emergency officer could come in and shut it down.

Amendment to amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 2 to amendment No. 90 not moved.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 91 to 101, inclusive, not moved.

Section 11 deleted.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 102:

In page 32, before section 12, to insert the following new section:

"12.—The Act of 1999 is amended by the insertion after section 9J of the following section:

‘9K.—A reference in—

(a) sections 9F to 9J of this Act,

(b) paragraphs (ea) to (ec) of section 9(1), and

to natural gas shall be construed and have effect as if it included a reference to liquefied petroleum gas.'.".

This is a technical amendment to take account of the new sequencing of provisions inserted into the 1999 Act by the revised section 11. It deletes the original subsections (2) and (3) of the original section 12 as being superfluous.

Mr. Broughan

In practical terms, therefore, if the Tarbert project went ahead this would cover it.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Yes, the other provisions of the Bill would cover it, but this amendment refers to LPG — mostly used in Ireland in domestic appliances not connected to the natural gas system.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 12 deleted.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 103:

In page 33, before section 13, but in Part 4, to insert the following new section:

"13.—Section 2 of the Gas Act 1976 is amended by substituting the following definitions for "foreshore", "harbour authority" and "local authority", respectively:

"foreshore" means the bed and shore, below the line of high water of ordinary or medium tides, of the sea and of every tidal river and tidal estuary and of every channel, creek and bay of the sea or of any such river or estuary and the outer limit of the foreshore shall be determined in accordance with section 1A (inserted by section 60 of the Maritime Safety Act 2005) of the Foreshore Act 1933; "harbour authority" means—

(a) in the case of a harbour to which the Harbours Act 1996 applies, the harbour company concerned,

(b) in the case of a harbour to which the Harbours Acts 1946 to 1976 apply, the harbour authority concerned,

(c) in the case of a fishery harbour centre to which the Fishery Harbour Centres Act 1968 applies or any other harbour under the control or management of the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, that Minister,

We are up on the foreshore.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 104 and 105 not moved.

Section 13 agreed to.

Section 14 agreed to.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 106:

In page 35, before section 15, but in Part 4, to insert the following new section:

"PART 5

AMENDMENT OF GAS (INTERIM) (REGULATION) ACT 2002

15.—The Gas (Interim) (Regulation) Act 2002 is amended by the insertion after section 21 of the following sections:

‘21A.—(1)(a) The Commission may invite expressions of interest from persons who are licensed suppliers to act as a supplier of last resort, that is, to supply gas in accordance with this section.

(b) Following public consultation and subject to paragraph (c), the Commission shall designate a licensed supplier to act as a supplier of last resort.

(2) A supplier of last resort shall supply gas to final customers of another licensed supplier where—

(a) a licensed supplier with whom final customers have a supply contract ceases or fails to supply gas to those final customers in accordance with its contractual obligations, or

(b) following representations to the Commission from a licensed supplier, the Commission is of the opinion that circumstances exist which warrant a direction to that supplier of last resort to supply gas to a final customer.

(3) The Commission shall include in a designation under subsection (1) any terms, conditions or requirements considered necessary by the Commission in respect of the functions of that supplier of last resort.

(4) The Commission shall specify in a designation—

(a) the terms and conditions under which that supplier of last resort shall supply gas to a final customer, including those in relation to—

(i) duration of supply,

(ii) termination of supply, and

(iii) price,

(b) the method for calculating the charges for the supply of gas to a final customer,

(c) any other matters which the Commission considers necessary for the purpose of the supply of gas to a final customer by that supplier of last resort, and that supplier of last resort shall comply with the matters so specified.

(5) Where a final customer is supplied with gas by a supplier of last resort, a contract for the supply of gas shall be deemed to exist between the final customer and the supplier of last resort concerned from the date upon which the supply of gas to the final customer by such supplier of last resort commences and such contract shall be subject to terms and conditions specified by the Commission in designating that supplier of last resort.

21B.—(1)(a) The Commission may invite expressions of interest from licensed shippers to act as a shipper of last resort, that is, to ship gas in accordance with this section.

(b) Following public consultation and subject to paragraph (c), the Commission may designate a licensed shipper to act as a shipper of last resort.

(c) Notwithstanding the generality of paragraphs (a) and (b), where the Commission is of the opinion that Bord Gáis Éireann is an appropriate person to carry out the functions of a shipper of last resort under this section, it may, in accordance with paragraph (b), designate Bord Gáis Éireann to act as a shipper of last resort.

(d) The Commission may reconfirm, amend or revoke a designation made under paragraph (b) as it sees fit.

(2) A shipper of last resort shall ship gas to customers of another licensed shipper where—

(a) a licensed shipper with whom customers have a shipping contract ceases or fails to ship gas to those customers in accordance with its contractual obligations, or

(b) following representations to the Commission from a licensed shipper, the Commission is of the opinion that circumstances exist which warrant a direction to that shipper of last resort to ship gas to a customer of a licensed shipper.

(4) The Commission shall specify in a designation—

(a) the terms and conditions under which that shipper of last resort shall ship gas to a customer of a licensed shipper, including those in relation to—

(i) the duration of the obligation,

(ii) the termination of obligation, and

(iii) charges,

(b) the method for calculating the charges for the shipping of gas arising from the designation,

(c) any other matters which the Commission considers necessary, and that shipper of last resort shall comply with the matters so specified.

(5) Where a shipper of last resort ships gas to or on behalf of a customer of a licensed shipper in accordance with this section, a contract for the shipping of that gas shall be deemed to exist between that customer and the shipper of last resort concerned from the date upon which the shipping of gas to the customer by such shipper of last resort commences, and such contract shall be subject to terms and conditions specified by the Commission in designating the shipper of last resort.

That would be the aim, yes.

Chairman

I formally note that the members have indicated they wish to introduce amendments on this new section 15 on Report Stage.

Amendment agreed to.

SECTION 15.

Amendment No. 107 not moved.

Chairman

Amendment No. 109 is an alternative to amendment No. 108. We will discuss them together.

Mr. Broughan

I move amendment No. 108:

In page 36, lines 19 and 20, to delete all words from and including "with—" in line 19 down to and including "Finance" in line 20.

This seeks to amend the line "The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources shall not sell, exchange, surrender or otherwise dispose of all or any of the capital stock in the Board held by him or her without the prior consent of the Minister for Finance." in the Bill. As it stands, the Bill would seem to allow the Minister to sell the shares in ESB as long as he had the permission of the Minister for Finance, in other words, the informed debate on Aer Lingus last Thursday would not be necessary in the case of the ESB as the Bill stands. It would be perhaps more appropriate to prohibit that type of a sale without further legislation. We are saying legislation would be necessary.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The legislation seeks to address an existing legislative anomaly to provide the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources with the same rights as other stockholders. It does not seek to interfere with the rights of the Minister for Finance as the majority stockholder and, accordingly, it is not proposed to remove the requirement for the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to consult the Minister for Finance in that capacity. That is the position on amendment No. 108.

The proposal to have the matter subject to Oireachtas approval is unnecessary and is not in keeping with the 2001 Act which this section amends. Under that legislation such matters are deemed the responsibility of the Minister for Finance and given the Oireachtas agreement to this apportionment of responsibility in passing the 2001 Act, it is not proposed to deviate from this.

Mr. Broughan

I understand the inference of the Minister. I will withdraw the amendment for now.

Mr. Durkan

Amendment No. 109 is an important amendment along the same lines as Deputy Broughan's amendment No. 108 and is intended to have the same effect.

This amends the line "The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources shall not sell, exchange, surrender or otherwise dispose of all or any of the capital stock in the Board held by him or her without the prior consent of the Minister for Finance" by the addition of the words "and the Oireachtas". I am suggesting that it be brought to before the Houses of the Oireachtas and approved. It could come in the context of other legislation or as a result of a deal to sell-off an asset of which we are not aware at this stage. It is a provision that might be beneficial to a Minister in that Department. If it is agreeable, I will certainly withdraw it at this stage, subject to reintroduction. It is a fairly important amendment. I will introduce something similar on Report Stage in any event, unless the Minister wants to accept something like it.

Chairman

I note formally that Deputy Durkan may reintroduce the amendment on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 109 not moved.

My only regret is that perhaps we should have had our breakfast together this morning because we could have arranged matters a little better today, but I was glad we had our lunch together.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending today's meeting. I will allow the members of the Opposition and the Minister one or two minutes to conclude.

Mr. Durkan

I thank the Minister and his officials for their assistance and co-operation. Needless to say, we would have much preferred had they not dumped the major sections on top of us in the past 24 hours without warning. We realise that there were areas that needed attention. There are still one or two areas that need attention and we referred to them in the course of the debate today. I hope it will be possible to reach agreement on them by the time the Bill returns to the House after the summer recess.

Energy is an area which requires much attention. I hope the legislation, when enacted, will be sufficiently well founded and broadly based to anticipate any problems likely to arise such as those referred to by Deputy Broughan in the context of the Corrib gas field and other as yet unidentified or unspecified similar areas of exploration because we do not know what is likely to happen at some stage in the future. The committee received an interesting presentation on exploration here yesterday from an idealistic group. I hope the Bill works well for them because that will depend on the degree of their success. It was mentioned yesterday that we must encourage entrepreneurs and ensure they get all the support possible.

I assure the Minister and the Chairman that we will let them go to Cork and various other places throughout the country for the summer break unimpeded and uninterrupted and that they will come back to us with the provision whereby we can have the amendments which were not able to put before them today listed, debated and, hopefully, taken on board.

Mr. Broughan

As it is probably one of our last public sessions before early September, I wish the Chairman and the clerk to the committee and all the staff well. I know the Chairman is going to follow in the footsteps of the great helmsman and that he will stand on the banks of the Yangtse river and in front of the Bund in the great city of Shanghai. Perhaps he will have the opportunity to observe the country that is beginning to gobble up more of the energy resources of our planet to see what solutions it is bringing forward.

I commend the Minister and his staff. Unfortunately, it is not the way to do business to bring a big tranche of a Bill to Deputies 14 hours before we debate it, particularly given the fact that other related issues are coming down the line, for example, the gas and single market Bills. It would be helpful to have the heads of these Bills in advance to examine to help us gather our thoughts. If we had such a system, surprises would not be sprung on us in the manner they were sprung on us yesterday.

This is important legislation. It possibly covers the most important subject we need to deal with for the country. I look forward to dealing with it again on Report and Final Stages.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I thank the Chairman, members and committee staff for their help in advancing the Bill today. I appreciate the fact that we got through it in one sitting. I thank the members for the amendments they tabled and was pleased to be able to accept some of them. I hope we will be able to work as well together on Report Stage. Many of the amendments passed, although ministerial amendments, were in response to issues raised by Deputies and others outside the House. Further amendments will be addressed on Report Stage.

Two particular issues were raised by Deputies with regard to sections 4 and 11. The committee would like to arrange a briefing session with officials to go through those issues and we will be willing to do that, either later this month or in August or September. Deputy Broughan suggested we should do so before we go on leave.

Mr. Broughan

We will probably not see the Minister again for some time. Will he invite the Opposition to the presentation of the Green Paper? Bad and all as the Minister's predecessor was and despite the mistakes he made, the day he announced broadband was a total failure, he brought us over to the Taoiseach's Department to be with him as he made the announcement.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The Deputy will be more than welcome on the much happier occasion of the launch of the Green Paper. That is most likely to be in August and he will be more than welcome if he is around.

Mr. Broughan

I will have to return from the south west.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Members of the committee will be aware that we propose to extend the scope of the Bill. The additional measures will confer on Bord Gáis Éireann the power to create a capital stock, provide an increase on the statutory borrowing limit of Bord na Mona plc., and provide for the rehabilitation of mine sites. We will have to table the necessary Dáil motion for this prior to Report Stage of the Bill to allow debate on it. We expect to have that debate prior to Report Stage.

Subject to legal advice, I also intend to introduce a further amendment to the gas safety provisions to ensure that a natural gas fitting is safely maintained after the point of delivery of natural gas to a domestic dwelling. We will table those amendments as soon as possible. I am delighted that henceforth we must have a four-day gap between the tabling of a motion or amendments and debate on them because the situation as it stands leaves everybody in an awkward position. I thank the Deputies for their help and co-operation.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. It would be best to have the briefing on the issues raised in the first or second week of September, before Members return at the end of September.

Before we conclude, I remind members that we will meet next Wednesday to discuss the motion referred to us by the Dáil on the broadcasting Bill. The reason we wanted to get today's Bill out of the way today was that we want to have the month of September to engage in debate on the terms of reference sent to us by the Dáil on the heads of the broadcasting Bill and the webcasting of the proceedings of the committee. We wanted to clear the decks for that in September.

We will meet next Wednesday at a time arranged by the committee clerk to discuss the motion and to set out our stall for September. I thank everybody for their attendance today.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate - Thursday, 13 Jul 2006

Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006: Committee Stage.

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SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Thursday, 13 Jul 2006