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SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 1999

Vol. 2 No. 1

Estimates for the Public Services, 1999:

Vote 26 — Office of the Minister for Education and Science (Revised).

Vote 26 — Office of the Minister for Education and Science (Supplementary).

I welcome the Minister for Education and Science and the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O'Dea, and officials of the Department.

The purpose of the meeting is to consider the revised Estimates falling within the remit of the Department of Education and Science, namely, Vote 26 — Office of the Minister for Education and Science; Vote 27 — First Level Education; Vote 28 — Second Level and Further Education; Vote 29 — Third Level and Further Education; and the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 26.

We have circulated a proposed timetable which allows for opening statements by the Minister and Opposition spokespersons and an open discussion on each Vote by way of a question and answer session.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the opportunity of appearing before the Committee to discuss the 1999 Estimates for the Department of Education and Science. I look forward to hearing the views of the Members of the select committee and to responding to Members' contributions and questions on the Estimates and the issues arising from them.

The past year, since I appeared before the committee to discuss the 1998 Estimates has been a momentous one for education. For the first time, a statutory framework for much of our system has been put in place. There have been major breakthroughs in key policy areas and all levels are benefitting from significantly increased investment. Many issues which have lain unresolved for decades have been addressed and we have seen a very definite movement on other issues which were often viewed as being intractible. There is much left to be done but the Government and my Department are moving rapidly in the right direction.

Many challenges face education and the best way of summarising my approach to them is to say that we must be more inclusive and we must protect and promote quality for all. We must target our resources and invest in the whole system. This requires a delicate balance which is not always easy to find. Critical self-analysis, evaluation of current practices and informed planning for the expansion of existing programmes all form part of a search for that balance. The Government has dealt quickly and comprehensively with important and long-neglected issues while putting in place effective policy development to help us deal with issues which require proper planning.

The passage into law of the Education Act, 1998, means that we now have an inclusive, statutory framework to help us further develop education. It took more than a century and a half from the time Stanley provided an outline for our national school system, for legislation to be put in place. The Education Act, 1998 both encapsulates the strengths of our system and shows us the way to tackle and overcome our weaknesses.

In planning the future of education it is not enough to legislate, important though that is. Real commitment and resources are required to make a difference. In our Programme for Government we said we would invest in education. After less than two years, the gross budget provision of more than £2.8 billion for education is 20 per cent higher than on the day we took office. The impact of these extra resources has been felt throughout the system. Investment has been concentrated on renewing our educational infrastructure, addressing core funding deficiencies and crucially, putting very substantial resources behind the promotion of social inclusion.

I accept that communities in all parts of the country have been put under considerable pressure in trying to meet the cost of running their local primary schools. There is no doubt that the capitation grant has not been high enough. The 1999 Estimates provide for the largest ever increase in the capitation grant. I recognise the need to continue to increase this direct funding and I am currently examining, with my Department, the full range of issues concerning the long-term level of capitation. This work seeks to understand the situations faced by different types of schools — urban and rural, large and small — and to look at ways to target the needs of individual schools.

One example of the type of issue we are looking at is the way smaller schools may face problems because they cannot benefit from economies of scale. As part of this work, we are holding on-going discussions with the INTO, managers and parents. We are also specifically examining the financing of costly school office equipment and ways of altering the minor capital works grants scheme. I hope we will be in a position to move on these soon.

Beyond the traditional capitation payment, a number of other moves have been made. For example, an entirely new payment will commence later this year relating to the cost of purchasing science equipment and equipment for infant classes. This targeting of infant classes, in particular, is an area which I would like to expand in coming years. There is no question but that our school buildings have fallen badly behind in terms of the investment needed to keep them up to acceptable standards. When I came to office the funding for primary buildings and renovations was £27 million per year. Today it stands at almost £60 million and long ignored projects up and down the country are under construction.

Putting in place the resources in the Estimates is only one part of the overall strategy. The imposition of a high local contribution for projects served in the past as a serious disincentive for managers and communities to come forward with projects. Schools often had to go far into debt in order to pay their part of the provisions of even very basic accommodation. This is now being dealt with. The local contribution to building projects has been significantly reduced and a cap has been put on it.

Beyond this there is the need to put in place procedures so that we can identify and tackle school building projects as they arise rather than have to wait for local campaigns to get some movement. The major increase in funding helps here but we need a fully transparent and accessible system and a good deal of work has already gone into proposals to this end. Taken together with the major advances in funding, we will soon be able to put the era of substandard school accommodation behind us.

As we go about the business of modernising our school buildings we are also modernising the facilities that are available within them. Schools IT 2000 was launched by us over a year ago and there has already been incredible progress. The programme is based on constructing three key infrastructures, the right equipment, the right skills and the right support. Every school has been given access to the Internet and every school has received direct funding for equipment. Last year primary schools received a computer each from Telecom Éireann and grants totalling over £10 million were distributed to them. On the training side, more than 20,000 teachers participated in courses funded by IT 2000 and by the end of December it is estimated that a further 20,000 will have been on courses, giving a total of 40,000 within two years of the programme's commencement. Key officials in my Department and the National Centre for Technology in Education have worked on bringing all this together. An immense amount has been accomplished in a very short time. The 20 regional IT advisers who will soon take up their posts will help underpin the programme and bring it to new levels.

Other IT developments provided for in the 1999 Estimates include: the launch of the main ScoilNet website, including a schools database, an information communication technology, ICT, information service, an educational software review section, discussion fora for teachers, support for on-line training in ICTs both for ICT tutors and teachers and a range of curriculum support materials; the establishment of a school web-publishing centre on ScoilNet to support schools in establishing their websites; the provision of guidelines and grant aid to education centres, a number of teacher subject associations, the NCCA and other organisations to support them in developing their websites; the development of a number of curriculum-based software packages on a partnership basis between the education system and software developers in the private sector; the continuation of a high level of teacher training courses, once again well ahead of our original plans.

There is no doubt that the number of primary teacher training places was cut back too severely in the past and that forward planning was very poor. Immediately upon taking office I increased the number of training places from 500 to 700. I stated last year that I intended increasing this further and the number today stands at more than 1,000. Together with a range of reforms, which have been or will shortly be put in place, this expansion represents a major tackling of supply problems in the profession. I acknowledge the assistance of the colleges of education and thank them for agreeing to move so quickly. I can confirm that it is our intention to maintain this new level of intake for the next three years at least.

This year has also seen the first significant expansion in teacher numbers in many years. The various improvements in staffing primary schools, which have occurred over the past ten years, have been based on the policy initiated by my party predecessor, Deputy O'Rourke, of retaining the demographic dividend within the system. However, with the allocation of significant extra funding in the 1999 Estimates, the Government has now gone beyond that commitment. Staffing schedules and other improvements, including the appointment of more than 600 teachers, will be implemented from this September. Almost two thirds of these are entirely new posts.

There is no doubt that there are too many large classes in our primary schools and we have to target them as a priority. Following a wide range of discussions and a detailed analysis of the staffing schedule, the schedule for the next school year marks a definite breakthrough on this issue. While there have been improvements for all school sizes, the focus has been on ensuring that every school can operate to a maximum average class size of no more than 30. The staffing for the smallest schools in the country has also been improved and there will be a further reduction in the number of one-teacher schools.

As a result of the funding incorporated in these Estimates, for the first time ever, every school in the country will have a remedial teaching service. In addition, every designated disadvantaged school will have a home-school-community liaison teacher service.

The 1999 Estimates also provide for the first expansion in second level teacher numbers in some time. An additional 225 teaching posts are being created to specifically target issues of educational disadvantage. As of this September, every second level school will have a remedial teacher service and every school designated as disadvantaged will have a home-school liaison service.

The issue of over-quota posts has long been of concern, with schools and teachers facing a great deal of uncertainty about the retention of posts on a year to year basis. Together with the moves just mentioned, a new lower retention ratio has been introduced, which will mean that more than 200 teachers will not now be scheduled for redeployment. These moves involve significant extra resources and are a major step in the right direction. As a result, the national pupil-teacher ratio in the second level sector will have fallen from just over 16:1 when the Government took up office to just over 15:1 for the coming September.

The issue of a reduction in the appointment ratio in second-level schools has been raised with me on many occasions over the past year. My initial priorities have been to tackle educational disadvantage and to deal with a great cause for uncertainty within the secondary system. We should try to reduce the incidence of large classes and I want to find an effective way forward on this. It is clear that we also have to help ensure a diversity of subject choice within programmes and greater access to the full range of programmes.

The problem is that the existing approach to staffing schools at second-level gives absoutely no assurance that the appointment of an extra teacher or two to a school will either reduce the size of the largest classes or promote diversity of provision. It is currently the case that schools of the same size and the same basic staffing allocation can have an entirely different pattern of class size and subject choices. This essentially comes from the absolutely desirable freedom of the school to cater for subjects and arrange classes as it wishes within certain broad curricular constraints.

Additional work is needed to more fully understand how we can deal with this issue. This will involve a detailed examination of the differing patterns of class size and the subject provision in schools. I have invited all the partner groups to participate in this work.

Time does not permit me to go into detail on all the aspects of the 1999 Estimates but I want to speak about children with special needs. Of all of the improvements which we have made over the past year, the one which is the most important, and of which I am most proud, is that we now have a needs-based scheme for children with special needs to receive appropriate supports. For far too long they have relied on parents and teachers to lobby and campaign for even basic supports and little or no effort was made to recognise their special needs. FÁS trainees and fundraising had to be used in order to vindicate the rights of many children to access their local schools. The refusal to provide the resources to cater for the needs of children with autism was particularly insensitive. These days are now coming to an end.

A series of automatic supports, determined only by the needs of the child, are now in place and every day new teaching posts and child care assistants are being sanctioned. We expect to have allocated 95 new teaching posts and more than 200 child care assistants by the end of this year. In addition, 28 new special classes for children with autism have been established in recent months.

There are many other areas of special needs which have to be addressed. We all know about the shameful situation where children with severe disabilities were brought to school in buses with no special safety equipment and no escort. The funding to provide escorts and safety harnesses on every bus that needs them has been provided for in the 1999 Estimates. The arrangements for distributing the funding are being put in place and will be effective by September.

The report of the Special Education Review Committee represented a landmark. Unfortunately, many of its recommendations remained unimplemented six years after publication. I am pleased to confirm that, as of this September, the pupil-teacher ratios for each of the categories identified in the report will be brought fully into line with the committee's recommendations. In order to have an effective policy on special education there has to be full access to both assessment and advisory services. The lynchpin of these is psychological services. Within weeks of coming to office the Government appointed a group to draw up plans to establish a national educational psychological service. The group prepared a comprehensive report and the Government has quickly acted upon its recommendations.

A national psychological service agency will be developed with the delegated authority to provide a service for all students who need it. In addition to the 15 new psychologists recruited last year, another 25 will be hired shortly. The areas covered by these new posts will depend mainly on a detailed study currently under way but, in the early years of the service, priority will be given to children who are educationally disadvantaged.

An effective education service is needed for members of the travelling community. During the year a new representative committee was established to advise on policy in this area. Extra visiting teachers are being appointed so that this service will be available nationwide from this year. I intend developing this service further and creating supports to help this educationally disadvantaged group. The 1999 Estimates for second level included provision for a new special capitation payment to help second level schools with the costs associated with building and maintaining contacts with the families of their traveller pupils.

The establishment of a Commission on Childhood Abuse forms part of the Government's comprehensive approach to the problem. The commission will provide a forum for the victims of abuse in childhood and will conduct wide ranging inquiries into the nature, extent and causes of child abuse in Irish society. Expenditure on a Commission on Childhood Abuse was not included in the Revised Estimates volume. Approval is now being sought for a token Supplementary Estimate of £1,000 for Vote 26 to enable expenditure by the commission and to comply with public financial procedures concerning a new service.

The media discussion on physics and chemistry education in second level schools indicates a growing awareness of the importance of science education to the rapidly expanding economy. The Government set up the education and technology investment fund which, inter alia, will provide places for additional graduates and technicians in specialist areas. Having provided the additional places, the challenge is to fill them. If we are to meet this challenge, we must attract a greater proportion of pupils to the study of the physical sciences at second level.

The level of interest among leaving certificate pupils in the physical sciences has been of concern for some time. For many years the participation rates of pupils for these subjects, particularly chemistry, has declined. The increasing numbers taking the leaving certificate examination have tended to mask the declining interest in the physical sciences. Since the total leaving certificate cohort is set to decrease in the coming years, the participation rates could rapidly decline. In the 1986-7 school year, for example, 20.1 per cent of the leaving certificate cohort were studying physics. In 1996-7 the percentage uptake of physics in schools had decreased to 16.4 per cent. Again, in the 1986-7 school year, 19.4 per cent of the leaving certificate cohort was studying chemistry. Ten years later this had decreased to 12.3 per cent. Concern has arisen over at the numbers of candidates who do not achieve grade D or higher in the leaving certificate examination in physics or chemistry at ordinary level. The percentage of candidates obtaining the lower grades at ordinary level is about 20 per cent, which is disappointingly high compared with corresponding figures for many other leaving certificate subjects.

During the year my Department analysed the teaching of these subjects in schools and developed a plan based on four core identified needs. Many schools require investment to modernise laboratories. The physics and chemistry syllabi for leaving certificate have to be updated and teachers of these subjects need a programme of skills development. Ongoing funding for materials is necessary to support the teaching of these subjects. My plan involves a multi-level approach over the next three years costing over £15 million. This includes investment in the modernisation of schools' science laboratories, details of which will be finalised following analysis of a survey of science facilities undertaken in recent months.

A new payment for schools for each student undertaking physics or chemistry will be introduced from September costing over £300,000 in a full year. This will provide schools with £10 for each student to aid the purchase of materials for these classes.

New syllabi in leaving certificate physics and chemistry will be issued to schools at the beginning of the next school year for introduction in September 2000 and examination in June 2002. The National Curriculum Assessment Council is to undertake an immediate review of the junior certificate science syllabus particularly its physics and chemistry content. A restructuring of this syllabus will be completed by the summer. The style and layout of the ordinary level papers of junior certificate science and leaving certificate physics and chemistry will be revised to make their presentation more appropriate for candidates. An extensive in-career development initiative for teachers of physics and chemistry at both leaving and junior certificate levels will be launched later this year. Schools will receive a grant for the purchase of computer equipment specifically for use in science subjects.

The 1999 Estimates provide £14 million for the full year of a maintenance grant scheme for students at PLC colleges. The scheme is now up and running and is available to about 300,000 students enrolled in the sector this year. The old Cinderella status of the sector will change in other ways. Major capital funding is being provided to develop their facilities, with extra resources for providing important new courses.

Over the past year and a half an unprecedented level of investment was allocated to the network of institutes of technology. Over £100 million is being provided to renew and develop their facilities and give staff and students the quality learning environment which their work so richly deserves. In addition there has been a significant expansion in current funding for the institutes. This has allowed the institutes to open up greater opportunities for participation in higher education. The institutes have continued to reinforce their unique and internationally valued place in our education system. They have been driving forces behind both regional and national economic development and they will further develop this role in the future. The recently published qualifications Bill will help promote quality and ensure that ladders of progression between courses and institutions are available to students. Institutes will obtain delegate authority to make awards following an objective academic assessment procedure.

The number of students failing to complete their courses is of great concern. The drop-out rate is roughly in line with international experience but there is room for improvement. Everybody should be working together to fully understand and tackle this problem. Certain institutes have recently undertaken research on this topic and this is due to be completed shortly. Funding is now being provided through the 1999 Estimates to launch a series of initiatives to improve retention rates within the institutes.

One of the major successes of the third level institutes in recent years has been in broadening access. Despite this the level of participation by the most disadvantaged group remains unacceptably low. To achieve equality in society in the twenty first century, every family must have a reasonable chance of gaining access to higher education. We need to tackle this at every level in the education system. Access for mature students must also be improved as their level of participation is well below that in other countries.

The 1999 Estimates for student support include a new provision for payment of the higher non-adjacent rate of grant to all eligible mature students with effect from September 1999. We are creating the places needed to create a new mindset, where every institution sees greater access as a core part of its mission. The institute of technology at Blanchardstown will include a minimum of 30 per cent non-standard entrants. Incredible work has been done in getting the institute ready for opening this September. Staff are being hired, students are applying and the first stages of £20 million development facilities are under way.

Adult illiteracy provision has also increased dramatically from £4 million to £5 million since coming into office.

The 1999 Estimates for the Education Votes demonstrate there is major investment under way and many long neglected issues are finally being tackled. They reflect the Government's conviction that the economic return from education is significant both for the individual who is likely to be better remunerated and society. Any successful society which provides opportunities at all levels is one which will be economically inclusive and socially cohesive. We need to provide all the citizens with the means to obtaining a more economically secure future for themselves and their families. Our responsibility is to ensure that the new prosperity of the State is open to all who are willing to adapt themselves and be educated in ways which allow them to work for a better future. The Estimates before the committee, which are 20 per cent higher than those of two years ago, demonstrate that this Government is investing in education and in the future of this country. I commend these Estimates to the committee.

The economic success of Ireland in the last number of years has relaxed the expenditure constraints in education. For the first time in decades we have an opportunity to make investments in areas that have been neglected. The test for the Minister and his Department will be in the priorities set and the outcomes achieved with the new resources.

Our report on early school leaving — a good starting point to assess the scale of the challenge — demonstrates that in 20 years the Department of Education and Science managed to only halve the extent of its prevalence and serious problems still exist. Five per cent of pupils leave school without any qualification and 16 per cent leave after completion of the junior certificate examination. Seventy five per cent of travellers leave school early, most of them without a qualification. Many children with a disability do not have any second level education.

In what areas will the moneys be distributed and how will the desired results be achieved? In my two years as Opposition spokesman on Education, I have observed that, despite a Department that votes large sums of money, the extent to which outcomes of programmes receive serious, public evaluation is very low. Mainstream programmes on remedial education and designation of educational disadvantage have received negative evaluation.

Many important, educational issues such as basic literacy, are not routinely scrutinised. We participate in the odd, international study but we do not view issues of quality in relation to the substantial sums of money we expend. When I use the word "we" I mean the Minister and his advisers. They do not collect information on children with special needs. A 1993 survey showed that six per cent of such children received care from the classroom teacher only. Although I welcome the changes the Minister made in this area, he still cannot tell us the number of children with special needs who do not receive assistance other than that of the classroom teacher.

We do not monitor the number of people from disadvantaged backgrounds who advance to third level education. This was a priority issue according to the Department, and set out in detail in the White Paper. Yet the Minister admitted in the House that his Department did not collect information regarding priority issues.

The Minister made a timid suggestion in his speech today that the drop out rate in third level education adheres to international figures. When in Opposition, he excoriated the Department for its failure to have proper research done into drop out rates. We have intermittent pieces of research undertaken in various colleges but we do not have thorough research done by the Department. This is not in line with other countries who do not have a drop out rate of 35 per cent. I do not blame this Minister. There is a problem in getting favourable results from the resources we use.

Educational disadvantage is a priority into which this committee has invested much work. A report in the 1990s which spawned the pilot scheme Breaking the Cycle, showed that the designation did not work. There was no follow-up and further information must be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, 1997 as it was not released to the Dáil which is responsible for voting the moneys. The Department is still doing some worthwhile research in the area. It has discontinued the policy of designation of disadvantaged schools without offering a proper substitute besides the Breaking the Cycle scheme which was implemented in a few schools. There is not any indication that it will be expanded.

The study on remedial education was frightening although done on only a small scale and it was not the standard, comprehensive study preferred. The authors deserve credit for unearthing worrying trends in the remedial education programme that showed children in disadvantaged schools not benefiting from their years of remedial education. The Department does not allocate more remedial teachers to the disadvantaged schools thus beefing up the scheme and developing a national directorate of remedial education. Instead, the opposite obtains and the Department, content with the remedial education programme, plans to introduce it to schools nationwide. It no longer concentrates on a programme aimed at disadvantage. There is insufficient attention given to the problems that caused its failure.

There is a trend in the Department's thinking, away from the notion that early school leaving disadvantage needs to be targetted with resources. The spread of remedial education to every school means that new resources do not go to disadvantaged schools because they already have them.

Class sizes will be reduced to 30 pupils in every school. As the maximum size of a class in a disadvantaged school is 29 it means that such schools are losing out as targetting is thereby reduced. I am in favour of lower class sizes but I do not wish to see the position of disadvantaged schools whittled away, although I appreciate how much the Minister is under pressure to make these provisions. Lower class size in disadvantaged schools seems to be disappearing as a result of these changes. We need to ensure that there is a programme to address the class size problem, particularly in disadvantaged schools. Some schools benefitted from the Breaking the Cycle scheme but many did not, including those in his constituency. These problems should be addressed.

We have an opportunity to examine the priorities and achieve results. The Department is too timid in the issue of policy and getting quality from the resources introduced. It remains entrenched in an era when education was not crucial to success in every walk of life as it is now. In social and economic success education is the key. We are loading more responsibility on schools in recognition of that. We need to look critically at our schools in terms of success. We have not fully dealt with the effort at whole school evaluation. I am in favour of consensus but we cannot have it if it confines us to the pace of the slowest mover, the approach the Department favours.

It is interesting to contrast the meagre resources with which the partnership companies have made innovative achievements in the education sphere. They pose a challenge to the Department and the Minister who has rejected devolution of power as the way forward in the management of the education system and has rejected a form of regionalisation or grassroots approach. The Department wants to retain central control. This places an onus on it to perform much better and more innovatively. It appears extraordinary that it is the partnership companies which do not know where their future lies. It is uncertain.

Many of their key educational co-ordinators recruited from teaching posts are abandoning their current posts as they do not know what the future holds for them. The Department is continuing to say that this is part of the negotiation for the next tranche of EU funding. We have been hearing that for too long. If they are important in an educational setting and have been successful, the Department should say that come hell or high water this is something we want to develop. It should not be dependent on negotiations at EU level. If the Department is of the view that they have not been successful, there should be a proper evaluation to back up its view. They have been remarkably successful on meagre resources. They deserve to be expanded, not undermined by the loss of key staff.

In many areas of the education system we have had to put up with developing country standards. It is time to look afresh at many issues such as the provision of caretakers and secretarial assistants and the fact that principals have to combine management and teaching responsibilities. Teachers need time to plan. There is a need for new thinking on the part of the Department. This is long overdue.

There is a need to reform our educational structures. Our system which is characterised by a highly centralised Department and schools operating on their own is not a good model for the challenges we face. Schools are overstretched in managing their day-to-day affairs and have little time for innovation. Support services are thin on the ground. Even though they are under-resourced, they are expected to deal with more and more complex issues such as substance abuse, sexual relationships and counselling. We are loading responsibilities onto our schools, yet remain unwilling to reform the system to allow them develop.

Some of the recommendations in the report on early school leaving which would change the way in which schools are managed, the way in which resources are allocated and provide for the establishment of a development authority to help schools develop innovative approaches should be seriously considered by the Department. There will never be a better time to do this. Given that resources are available, the Minister could adopt a carrot and stick approach in pushing for reform. If one has to adopt a stick approach, one will not get very far.

There is a need for more radical thinking. This committee should be used by the Department more innovatively. There is no reason it should not be made privy to research findings which tend to be kept as private information so that it can act as a sounding board for new ideas to solve problems in the education system and thus facilitate a proper public debate. It should be open season. I hope this committee which has been doing very good work will take on a more innovative role.

Tá áthas orm seans a fháil labhairt sa díospóireacht tábhachtach seo ar na Meastacháin don Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. While aspects of the Minister's statement are welcome in the sense that they contain innovations, there are also omissions. The Minister laid much emphasis on social inclusion. In this context, his innovative proposal to provide a grant towards the cost of purchasing science and other equipment for infant classes is welcome. Many children come from homes where no emphasis is placed on reading. This restricts their ability to develop an interest in science.

The Minister's statement that every school will have access to a remedial teaching service is also welcome. How is this to be achieved, particularly in isolated schools which are not large enough to qualify for a full-time remedial teacher? What new measures does the Minister propose to take to ensure the quality of the service is consistent? We have not been sufficiently vigilant in this regard.

The Minister stated that all schools designated as disadvantaged will have access to a home-school-liaison community teacher service. What plans does the Minister have to increase the number of schools designated as disadvantaged? There is a lack of equity in the designation process, with the result that many schools which are just as disadvantaged as those which have been designated will not benefit from the Minister's proposal.

The concept of a home-school-liaison community teacher is a good one and I am pleasantly at the level of parental involvement. The same is true of second chance education. The value that parents place on education has a positive effect on their children who will be motivated to remain on and perform better at school.

It appears that the schools to be designated are selected at random. I do not know of any school which does not deserve to be designated. I am aware of schools which have not been designated but which are more disadvantaged than some of those which have been designated. This is a matter the Minister should address in the context of social inclusion and the need for equity.

An additional 200 child care assistants are to be made available to primary schools. What qualifications does one need to possess to become a child care assistant? Is there any proposal to provide a career structure for people who come into the system as child care assistants so that, if they had the talent and the ability and were so motivated, they could move on to qualify as teachers in the fullness of time? If such people are brought into the education system at this level, there should be an incentive for them to develop within the system. During my time in the Department of Health I noted that people on community employment schemes in the caring areas reached a very high standard in terms of the care they were providing but there was no recognition of that, no certificate, no piece of paper at the end of it and, more important, there was no great incentive to encourage such people to participate in adult education programmes, in third level education as mature students or in night classes.

The school psychological service which is to be developed this year is welcome. I stress once again, however, that there is a particular problem in my area and the Minister has yet to give me an absolute undertaking that it will be addressed. At the very least, one educational psychologist should be available in the Waterford constituency — more than that is needed — but at least there should be someone to deal with the urgent cases. Assessment is needed but, more important, a plan should be put in place to develop the students in question. I would be very interested in what the Minister has to say in regard to my constit uency — as I am a substitute here today I thought I would indulge myself this once on a local issue.

Do not forget Galway.

There seems not to be a significant improvement in third level grants. Income limits are much too low. Also students who live in towns, in one city and in other parts of the country where there is no direct access to a university can be economically disadvantaged, but they are also disadvantaged geographically, depending on where they live and how far they are from a centre of education. That should be taken on board. On the question of income limits, which I have raised with the Minister in the past, these should be based on net rather than gross income because to base them on gross income is to base our assessment on a notional figure rather than the actual amount of money a person receives.

Another issue that occurred to me as I read through the Estimates is the issue of parity of pension among teachers. Can the Minister give us a categorical assurance that the principle of parity has been or is about to be fully implemented in relation to teachers who left the service prior to the last pay agreement? I will be interested in the Minister's statement on that.

Another issue that caused me some concern as I was going through the Estimates related to special services for children in care. There is a marked decrease in the remuneration for staff in the 1999 Estimate compared to the 1998 provisional outturn. Could the Minister explain how this has happened because in terms of the children who require special care in whatever area, they are certainly not a group that is getting any smaller. I therefore find the figures in the Estimates bewildering. On that point, is there any study going on at the moment? Is there any tracking of children who come into special care in regard to how they benefit from it? Are follow-up surveys done? I do not believe the State has been serving the needs of these children and their families in the way they require. I also believe that if better service were given and reform were achieved in relation to these children the community at large would benefit, given that many children who are engaged in anti-social behaviour move on to further anti-social behaviour as they get older, resulting in great cost, in human and social terms as well as in material terms, to the community at large.

A number of other points occurred to me. On Vote 26 the outturn for 1998 for telecommunications was £672,000 as against £520,000 in the Estimate for this year. I would have thought that against a background of developing information technology the Department would increase this Estimate. Obviously there is a reason for this and I ask the Minister to explain it. There is a cutback in funding for office machinery and other office supplies. I wonder why, as I would have thought the Minister's office was getting busier and busier as time goes by.

On subhead B5 — Research and Development Activities — item 2 refers to a private school retention initiative and there is an asterisk which refers us to the fact that provision was made for this programme from subhead B17 — Miscellaneous — in 1998. There is a figure of £1.8 million. Could the Minister tell us what exactly this refers to?

On subhead B14, the grant-in-aid for general expenses of cultural, scientific and educational organisations refers to bodies who promote Irish culture, music and other forms of culture. I am pleased to see that there is a significant increase in that figure. Could the Minister give us more detailed information on that when we come to discuss it? In relation to the appropriations-in-aid, subhead C, the sale of publications in Irish, what exactly is happening with regard to publications in Irish in the Department? Can the Minister give us the background and the facts surrounding this figure?

There are increases in the primary sector — I have not got much beyond first level. There is an increase, although not a huge one, in grants towards clerical assistance, and in relation to caretakers. How many additional caretakers and clerical assistants does the Minister intend to provide for this year? Since, to the best of my knowledge, caretakers are the only people in the education system who do not have a pension scheme, are there any proposals to deal with this situation? I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak on the Estimates and I look forward to the Minister's response.

I thank the Minister and the party spokespersons for their contributions. A question and answer session will follow on each Vote, 25 minutes for each Vote, until about 5 p.m. The question and answer session on Vote 26 will also cover the Supplementary Estimate for 1999.

As I am due to be back in the House after the Order of Business would it be possible to conclude before that time? That, of course, is up to the members.

The proposed timetable is circulated.

Do you want me to respond to the points that have been made or in the context of other replies to make reference to some of the points raised?

We shall go though each Vote as decided.

On the matter of housekeeping, when will the Department introduce a more customer-friendly phone system? Most Departments give lists of extensions at which different officials can be contacted. There is a dial through system where officials with responsibility can be fairly easily accessed. Is that type of system being introduced in the Department and, if so, what are its plans?

That system is called the virtual private network. I never had that network when I was in opposition.

I presume members of the committee will be provided with a directory.

Generally members of staff have been inundated with phone calls from the public in recent times. The volume of calls is such that new practices will have to be developed in terms of pigeon-holing certain parts of the day for the purpose of receiving calls.

Today I was trying to contact somebody in the building section and was told that nobody would be available to answer the phone until after 2.30 p.m. If a teacher in a primary school is trying to contact the building unit, his or her chance of getting through between 2.30 p.m. and the end of the school day is slim. Is it usual for the phones to be switched off for those periods?

This is a practice that the sections initiated and took on board. I think it is justifiable on the grounds that people have to get their work done as well. There is a danger that people could spend the entire day literally answering phone calls. Projects have to be processed and work has to be done. We all fall into that trap in terms of our daily work routine. That the budget has doubled has created strains and pressures in that many more projects have come on stream and as a result there is a greater workload. It was with a view to giving some order to the day that these practices had to be introduced.

If we take that to its conclusion and look at, say, the Minister's constituency office, customer satisfaction is very important. Obviously customer satisfaction should also apply to the Department of Education and Science. Surely it should be possible to have a person at the end of a line to take a call since none of us likes talking to machines.

Ultimately my constituents will want the job done as opposed to just taking phone calls. The same applies to school projects. The same queries continue to come in. How many times does one have to say stage IV is still at stage IV and has not moved on to stage V. There can be various queries pertaining to the content of stages, plans and so on. In any event the virtual private network is in place. We will endeavour to improve the service and improve the situation for our customers and schools. Many more projects are being processed than heretofore. I do not want to interfere too much in terms of how the units in the Department operate. It is important that the various heads and sections develop strategies and practices that arrive at a balance that facilitates customer inquiries and real work being done.

What is the breakdown of queries on a weekly or monthly basis? Is the highest number of queries made to the building unit? Are the queries about new projects or new schemes which have been introduced? If that is the case, apart from the building unit, are we not explaining the new programmes sufficiently to those who are supposed to implement them?

An analysis of the areas where pressure has built up can be made available to the Deputy. Clearly the building unit, primary level, is one area where pressure has built up. Following an announcement in November 1998, the special education section — which was always a relatively small section — suddenly has a host queries and submissions are coming from schools relating to child care assistant posts, resource teaching allocations, etc. Also the extension of the remedial teaching service took up a great deal of the time of the special education section as did the extension of the home/school liaison scheme. Traditionally the special education section dealt with the remedial service and the home/school liaison service. The building unit and the special education section are the busiest areas in terms of queries. We have over 3,000 schools. Other areas show a seasonal increase. Obviously the examinations section would have a significant increase in queries immediately prior to examinations and prior to results. Queries to the school transport section are about going an extra mile here or a square mile there, catchment areas and so on. The Minister of State is aware of that also.

Are there protocols in the Department as to how and when information should be disseminated in response to queries? If the chairperson of a board of management makes a call about an extension to a school will the same information be given to parents of children attending that school, to members of the public and public representatives? Is there a hierarchical approach in terms of the dissemination of information from the Department in response to telephone queries?

There would be a tendency to deal with the chairperson or the secretary of the board particularly in relation to school projects. Many schools and communities go through their public representatives if frustration is building up. Sometimes projects have lain fallow because of the failure of a board of management to progress them fast enough. There have been some famous cases where the site was never purchased or whatever. When parents come to us we give them the information. Sometimes parents have been kept in the dark about a number of issues pertaining to school extensions and so on. To answer the Deputy's question, there would be a certain hierarchical approach to queries. If there was a new deed, for example, and information was requested, obviously the chairperson of a board or the secretary of the school would be given priority. It is presumed that the secretary or the principal would be acting on behalf of the board of management in progressing a project or seeking information on a project.

Is it departmental policy that public representatives would be given more detailed information that parents or members of the public?

A TD should get the information he or she requests, as should members of the public. We should not mislead the public either.

Nobody is suggesting we are misleading — "withholding" is the word. My basic point is that if a public representative does not get information——

Sometimes sections are not in a position to give the information. Projects cannot be sanctioned before departmental approval is given.

It all has to come through the Minister?

It has to come through an authority. Someone has to know what is going on. It has to go through the principal officer in the section and eventually through the accounting officer. A great deal of routine work is done in terms of progressing an extension, whether it is at the planning or design stages and so on, but sanctioning is ultimately the Minister's responsibility. Is the Deputy suggesting a TD should get more detailed information than a member of the public?

No. I want to know what the Department does. I am seeking information rather than putting forward a policy position.

The Department gives the fullest information at its disposal to everybody at the time of the inquiry.

That is the answer to the question.

Are there any other queries on that Vote?

I am not satisfied with the presentation of B6 in these Estimates, the in-career development programme. We have just one global figure here and I am not fully convinced that the in-career development programme of the Department is well organised and is reaching teachers who need it. This area has not received sufficient scrutiny and as a member of the committee I would like to see a fuller analysis of what is being done in this area, including the types of programmes being run, the frequency with which people participate etc. That is an important dimension of the Department's policy because these budgets are relatively small in overall terms — £9 million here and another £6 million on IT in-service training. As I pointed out on previous occasions to the committee, if we were Hewlett Packard we would be spending perhaps 10 per cent of the payroll on in-career development. We spend extremely low sums in relation to our teaching force and I have certain doubts about the effectiveness of what we are doing. I know the Minister will not have the information with him today, but could a full analysis be presented to the committee at an early date on this subject?

I can undertake to provide such an analysis to the committee. There is ongoing analysis of the in-career development programmes. The main Estimate shows a 14 per cent increase on the 1998 Estimate, which is a further increase on 1997. There is a significant degree of activity taking place in in-service, so much so that on the other side of the coin considerable angst is being expressed by the management and principal bodies that the combination of in-service, particularly of new syllabuses coming on-stream, combined with examination and assessment, is constituting a significant intrusion on school life and school time.

It is not intruding on school time.

I know that. I am just making the point that education committees are now complaining that there is a dramatic shortage of in-service. There may be individuals who would like their particular subject to be higher on the list but a significant degree of in-service training is being undertaken in the teaching profession. The performance in information technology has been phenomenal. The original IT year 2000 plan was that we would train 20,000 teachers in three years. At the end of the second year of that plan, we will have up to 40,000 teachers in in-service training programmes. Much of that training takes place outside school time. It is fair to say also that the methodology and the manner in which in-service is taking place has improved dramatically in recent years compared to the old style in-service training which was to have everybody in the lecture hall for a lecture. It is now very much on the trainer of trainer models, smaller groups in education centres etc. There has been significant improvement in this area but we will make the detailed analysis available to everyone.

This is an area, possibly uniquely in the education field, in which we could make serious efforts to benchmark what we are doing as against other countries. Indeed, people outside the education sector are dealing with similar people in important formative roles in other organisations. There is a need for the Department to seriously examine this area because we recruit only a tiny proportion of the cohort of teachers each year, and if we do not upgrade and maintain the skills and move them forward with the arrival of IT and all the other changes taking place, we will quickly fall behind. This is an area in which I would like to see the Department undertake serious work in terms of seeing what other countries are doing, the way they are doing it, the results they are achieving and what constitutes best practice. In Japan, for example, 99 per cent of teachers were put through comprehensive IT programmes. The Japanese felt that was a worthwhile investment. We need to think a little more creatively in this area than we are currently doing. I acknowledge that the Minister has increased investment by——

I accept what the Deputy is saying. He made the same points in his original statement concerning our approach to disadvantage historically over the past ten years. Those comments were valid. We have halved early school leaving but have not yet eliminated it. There is a certain paradox in what the Deputy is saying in that if we accept there is a need for more comprehensive evaluation, we cannot simultaneously pile resource upon resource into existing schemes about whose value we may be dubious. In terms of disadvantage, for example, there is perhaps a need for a fundamental analysis of the earlier disadvantage schemes. Deputy O'Shea has raised that matter, as has the Deputy, but at the same time I cannot be attacked for reducing general class sizes, which was absolutely necessary — we make no apology for that.

The disadvantaged schools had an edge.

They still have the edge but why do we designate schools as disadvantaged? What do we hope to achieve by doing that? What are the objectives? We have brought in a new scheme, the retention initiative, which is much more performance focused than earlier disadvantage schemes. We need to examine those disadvantage schemes——

The Minister can retrofit the evaluation. There are many teachers going into designated schools. He does not have to constantly come up with new pilot schemes. He can decide that a certain programme is not working as well as it should and redesign it.

If we are saying we need evaluation, we must mean it. The Deputy referred to Breaking the Cycle. That is a pilot project which necessitates evaluation, yet we constantly hear the call for extending that because it is a good pilot. We do not know that yet because we have not evaluated it.

In terms of designation it was not a good pilot, yet we are doing nothing about it.

We have to evaluate the outcomes before we put more resources into it. We need a fundamental reappraisal of how we should tackle disadvantage in education.

The Minister is happy to put more resources into remedial education, and everyone applauds him for that, but he has not done the evaluation in that area. There is negative evaluation and nothing is happening on it.

We also have positive evaluation in the sense that the negative evaluation in remedial education relates to disadvantaged schools. Remedial services are for all pupils, irrespective of socio-economic background, if they are below the 10 per cent figure. New guidelines will be issued for September in terms of a consistent approach and moderation in education within the primary sector. No one could say that of the 500 schools which did not have any service up to now, there were no children in those schools below the 10 per cent line. We were not treating those children fairly and, therefore, it is valid that we extend the service to include children in those circumstances who were without a remedial service to date. That was important.

The evaluation of the remedial service was excellent and it will inform future practice, but it also recommended that we must both expand and reform the remedial service. In the context of reforming the remedial service, new guidelines will be issued that will provide schools with the basic consistent approach that we want — that children who are under the 10 per cent figure should be given priority. There are certain other approaches that schools should take, such as combining the classroom approach to helping children with remedial problems with the more focused remedial teacher approach. It is not a question that just because we expanded the service we are happy with it. We are expanding and reforming it.

Subhead B5 has been raised in this discussion. Will the Minister elaborate on the retention initiative? Has it come into place or when will it come into place?

It will be in place by September. We announced the scheme. It will include Dublin City VEC, Cork VEC and a number of secondary schools around the country that have low retention rates, particularly schools in areas, such as the Inishowen Peninsula, that have a retention problem. We are inviting proposals from those bodies and will then allocate grant assistance to the schools concerned to enable them to implement school retention strategies that they devise, but we will monitor their performance over a three year period with a view to maintaining resources or withdrawing resources, if the objectives are not met. The objective will be to increase the retention rate in those schools.

We began a research programme last year. We identified and collated the retention rate in every school and we have that information at our disposal. We know the second level schools that have a low retention rate and those that have a high rate. That enables us to target the schools that have a low retention rate. In advance of the announcement of this scheme, we asked the two main cities involved in terms of retention rates for vocational education committees to put forward proposals to try to increase the retention rate. In some schools the rate is as low as less than 50 per cent. We are focusing on those schools and approximately £4.5 million is targeted at addressing that problem in those schools.

The Minister said that in some schools the retention rate is less than 50 per cent.

I am talking about senior classes in secondary schools, pupils in the senior cycle.

Vote 27 — First Level Education (Revised).

I welcome the increase in funding for primary education and all education. Taking account of our economic boom, it is only right and proper that education would be given a share of the cake, given that it was on the backburner for years. As a result of this investment, I presume there will be further growth in our economy, given that our young people will have a higher standard of education.

On the pupil-teacher ratio and the proposal that a remedial teaching service should be provided for all schools, last week a presentation by the Roscommon development group was made to the committee, a copy of which has been supplied to the Department. The information that group supplied was startling in respect of the standard of school accommodation and the availability of computers in schools in that area. All the schools in that area do not have computers.

Do they not?

If my memory serves me right, it was only a week ago that group informed us that all of the schools in that area did not have a computers when its survey was carried out. A policy is being put in place by the Department. This relates to an earlier point made by Deputy Bruton. Is there anyone evaluating that policy? Is it any wonder so many calls are made to the Department, given that measures are not put in place as quickly in some parts of the country as in others, particularly in counties that are nearer the capital? The result of that survey carried out by the Roscommon development group is probably mirrored in many counties.

We were informed that on average each school would have access to a remedial teaching service three and a half days a month with one remedial teacher providing that service for four or five schools. Is anyone evaluating the value of a remedial teaching service in each school for three and a half days a month? Has such an evaluation been carried out prior to this decision being made? I am not against the decision, I welcome it, but are we getting the best value on the investment that we have made for the long-term for those children who require it?

The pupil-teacher ratio has been a hobby horse of every Minister for Education. We talk about reducing class sizes to 16:1, 14, 15 or 18:1 and the Minister has failed in this area. A point I made during a debate last year is that a remedial teacher who works in a school for three and half days a month is counted as a teacher in that school. The Minister has failed to correct that position. Remedial teachers are included in the pupil-teacher ratio statistics. This Minister is not the first to include them; all Ministers have done that. Will he face reality and acknowledge there are many classes with 30 or 29 pupils? I may table a question to ascertain the pupil-teacher ratio and then we will know the true position. There is no point in giving the impression that because a remedial teacher covers five schools such a teacher should be counted in every school. That reduces the pupil-teacher ratio for those schools and those reduced ratios are impressive for the Department and the Government of the day, but we should be realistic with parents. They are not fools.

I have always been of the view that the national figure is but a notional national PTR figure and I have not trumpeted it to any great extent other than to counteract equally notional figures that are raised sometimes by the partners. The partners may say the pupil-teacher ratio is very high, but a national notional figure does not get us far, it only gives the number of teachers in the system compared to the number of pupils in the system. That is why at primary level this year we decided to target the number of extra teachers at larger classes. We examined the statistics. I was very unhappy that up to 40,000 pupils were in classes with more than 40 pupils, I am not happy about the number of pupils in classes with more than 30 pupils. That is the reality and that ratio is unacceptable. As a first priority, I decided to reduce the maximum average class size in every school to 30 pupils. We are appointing 450 teachers to help reduce the average class size and that figure also includes remedial teachers and home-school liaison teachers. We also said we would extend the remedial service and the home-school liaison scheme to disadvantaged schools. I would like there to be fewer pupils in infant classes.

A targeted approach is the key to dealing with class size, not the national notional figure. We could reduce the overall national figure of PTR by one and it would look fairly good, but in many classes it has had no impact. That is particularly true at second level, and I mentioned that earlier. The partners may approach us at second level and say that the figures are as bad as they were ten years ago, which is nonsense in many respects because in some second level schools the pupil-teacher ratio is very low. If a national notional figure is used, they are very low. We have acknowledged that there is a problem in the core classes where class sizes can be very large, but class sizes can be very low in some of the subject areas. The class size may be as low as 12 or 14 for history, geography, some of the sciences, but the class size for core subjects, such as Irish, English and maths may be 30 to 35 pupils per teacher. We have said to the unions and the partners that we must try to devise a new methodology of ensuring that if we appoint additional teachers to these schools, they will be targeted at the core classes which will ensure that the number of pupils in those classes will be reduced.

If that was done, many of the schools might not have the extra space that would be required to divide the classes.

We could give them the space.

This will be over five years.

It is not. That is not the case anymore. That day is gone. I was appalled and upset to hear that the Roscommon partnership said that there are schools in its area that do not have computers. Every school in the country received a grant more than 12 months ago to buy computers.

Some of the schools may not have had computers when the survey was carried out.

Those schools should ask questions of the school boards of management concerned as to why computers have not been bought. I know there can be a time lapse between the purchase and delivery of computers. The bottom line is that a cheque was issued to the schools. Some schools may have waited and used that cheque with the proceeds of fund raising or private sector sponsorship. Perhaps that could be pointed out to the Roscommon partnership.

Similarly, in the area of substandard accommodation, we have a much larger capital budget at primary level now and we are establishing the basic accommodation requirements that every school should have. The Deputy is correct in what he said about the remedial service — every school should have a proper remedial room and remedial teachers should not have to teach in corridors.

I welcome the Minister. There was a lot of good news in his speech, on which I congratulate him.

I welcome the initiative to make computers available for children with special needs. That innovation is working quite well. However, I ask the Department to be a little sensitive in this regard. I know there is a need to send out good news, particularly in the run-up to local elections. However, a good news statement was sent from the Minister's office to a particular area which said that computers had been approved for two schools. It named the three children who were the recipients of those computers and said the special education section of the Department would be in touch with the school about it. The parents of two of those children contacted me. They are very upset that information was made public. I contacted the special education section of the Department, which was also appalled. The statement came from the Minister's office. We must be very sensitive about making such information public. I have no difficulty with the good news announcement that computers are being supplied to schools A, B or C. However, a child's name should not be included in such an announcement and I ask the Minister to review the policy in that area. It may be necessary for the Minister to write to the families concerned because they were very upset about it.

Did the Deputy send the details of that case to my office?

The Department has written to Mr. Dennehy about it.

It is not policy to issue such statements in relation to individuals. We have been doing this for the past two years. I want to clarify, for the record, that it is not my policy. The only press releases would have related to the general grant we gave to schools last year to build up their IT infrastructure. We have given a host of grants to individuals without issuing statements about it — we simply write to the school. Sometimes Deputies inquire about individual cases. It is beyond our control if individual Deputies, Senators or local representatives do something off their own bat. Sometimes parents go to Deputies' clinics and say they want X or Y for their child. I accept the Deputy's point that it would be very insensitive to have that in the public domain.

The ironic part was that the two parents concerned had contacted me and not the person in question. As Mr. Dennehy is aware, I have been involved in correspondence with the Department about it. That is why they were particularly annoyed about it. There is a lesson to be learned for everybody there. Sensitivities must be borne in mind.

My second point relates to child care assistance for children with special needs in the primary sector. The Minister mentioned he will be appointing 200 additional child care assistants. To what extent will there be one for every child with special needs, or will there still be a dependency on FÁS trainees and workers to provide some of those children with special attention? Yesterday a lady told me that her child is transferring from a junior primary school to a senior primary school. She has a FÁS assistant in the junior school but that assistant is not available in the senior school.

Is she a special needs child?

Yes. The FÁS trainee cannot transfer with that child because she is assigned to a particular school. To what extent will the 200 extra child care assistants be able to pick up the slack, or will there still be quite a number of children with special needs who do not have any assistant?

We have given an estimate of 200 child care assistants; that is not a limit but an estimate of what we expect the figure to be at the end of the year.

Is the Minister saying there will be one for everybody?

I am not saying that. There is a procedure whereby applications are made by the school to the special education section of the Department, psychological assessments are undertaken and recommendations are made on whether a child requires a child care assistant. The child care assistant is then appointed. As per the Government decision, it is an automatic entitlement. We have issued a circular to that effect.

Must the school make the application to the Department?

Yes. There must obviously be a system. Parents approach schools and the schools make the application to us.

Has that circular issued?

It has issued to all schools.

Can I get a copy of it?

If Members of the Oireachtas or public representatives find some schools are lax or not up to speed in terms of progressing the issue, we are open to parents coming directly to us, but we do want to clog up the system. There has been a certain clogging up of the system since the initiative came in.

My third point is the issue of transport for children with special needs. The Minister mentioned in his speech a transport initiative for children with special needs, special equipment and so on. Is he retaining the notional ratio of 1.5 children per seat on school buses where, for example, a 40 seater bus can carry 60 children? That can create particular difficulties for children with special needs. A 14 seater bus brought 21 children to a special school. In normal circumstances, that would have been fine but some of those children had special needs — some were particularly big for their age and would have difficulty sharing a seat with one other person never mind with two. There is a case to be made for a special ratio on school transport for children with special needs. Perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, will bear that in mind. I have documentation relating to difficulties that arose in that regard, which I can send to him.

I would welcome a review of the remedial education service. As I said to the Minister before, a teacher coming to a small rural school for half a day or three-quarters of a day per week is, to a great extent, a waste of time. Unless children have regular additional remedial tuition, such tuition will not be of much value to them. These pupils need daily contact — or, at least, three contacts per week — with a remedial teacher rather than the remedial teacher being in their school for one day per week. They are very limited in what they can do in that time because what these pupils need most is repetition.

The Minister referred to an earlier Minister for Education, Deputy O'Rourke, in glowing terms at one point but he neglected to mention her when he was talking about capital expenditure on schools. A great injustice was done to this country in 1987 when capital expenditure on primary schools was reduced by 50 per cent — from £30 million in 1986 to £14 million in 1987. She was responsible for that. The difficulties now being experienced by many primary schools were caused by the lack of expenditure between 1987 and 1992, when the situation was put right. That removed a huge volume of expenditure which should have been put into primary schools and it was the real reason for many of them falling behind.

Deputy McGrath's favourite politician, Deputy O'Rourke.

Is there a fast track process for the time between a new school being approved and its coming onstream? It is difficult for communities to understand the different stages which it must go through and the long gap which can occur between the first stage, the second stage and obtaining the money. The changes to the local contribution system also brought about a delay in moving projects forward. What timescale is involved in capital projects now?

Could the Department be proactive? The Minister has been to Kinnegad, which now has a fantastic bypass. The town's population has doubled and is likely to double again within in the next five or six years, which puts strains on the schools. The Minister should be examining how he could keep up to date with places like Kinnegad and provide capital expenditure to enlarge the schools. He should not wait until they are bursting at the seams to start to help. Surely we could be proactive, see what can be done and avoid long delays.

The Minister mentioned that capitation for primary schools was being increased, which is welcome. I am sure the Minister has been to public meetings where a principal states that heat and light costs the same in a primary school as it does in a second level school, and asks how the difference in capitation grants to primary level and second level pupils can be justified. There is a need for a huge increase in the capitation allowance at primary level.

The FÁS community employment scheme will be drastically reduced by the Government over the next 12 months, from 40,000 to 30,000 employees, roughly. That will have a huge impact on caretakers etc. in primary schools. Could the Minister stave this off or put something else in place? Caretakers do a great job, not only in the day to day upkeep of schools but in painting and repairs during the summer. Their services have been invaluable. Could the Minister prevent cutbacks to this service?

There are more ongoing capital projects at present than ever before because the Government has a proactive policy of investing in schools and school buildings. The money was there throughout the 1990s. One could argue that the money was there from 1994 to 1997 but it was not prioritised for school buildings. That is my contention, it is a political point which we could argue but it bears analysis if one looks at the figures. In the period after 1987 severe financial restructuring took place. The former Minister for Education, Deputy O'Rourke, went down in history as one of the more innovative Ministers who went around the country and forced schools to cut back on expensive projects in order to establish certain basic requirements. She challenged schools about buildings. She had little money to work with but she made it go a long way to improve facilities.

In respect of the stages argument and the timeframe for school buildings, one cannot speed up certain parts of the process, such as the planning process — detailed drawings, etc., must be made. We are in a position to give schools approximate timescales, give or take six months on either side. One has to make allowances. Often when we check back with vocational education committees or community schools we find that the fault is not with the Department. People ask what has happened to a certain project and we find that documentation has not been submitted or was only sent last week.

I do not agree that it is a waste of time to have a remedial teacher in a school for one day per week. We are talking about small schools where the proportion of pupils requiring remedial teaching should not be that high. The evaluation of the remedial service, which was quite comprehensive, showed that even internationally the key strategy should be for the remedial teacher to work with the class teacher in developing strategies to help students up to improve their reading and numeracy abilities. Unfortunately, the drawback in our service, where it is weak, is that the remedial teacher is on his or her own, in a separate room in an isolated context, dealing with a student once a week. The Deputy referred to this, but that is not what the remedial service is meant to be. It should be more proactive and there should be a whole school approach to remedial teaching which takes on board classroom teachers who work with remedial teachers to improve performance.

On capitation, there are clear criteria for primary level being different from second level. We have committed ourselves significantly to increase capitation for primary level and we are doing that. We are working with the partners at primary level to discover the objective level of primary school capitation. What does it cost to heat schools, provide electricity and meet the basic requirements which capitation is supposed to cover? If we can agree a figure with school managers we will meet it. Then additional resources should be targeted, for example, special funds for IT, libraries — last Christmas we gave schools the wherewithal to buy books — science equipment and, this year, capital funding for infant classes. We will approach primary with a combination of the general capitation rate, perhaps increasing to a level at which there is an objective agreement as to what it costs to run schools, and more specialist allocations to deal with key areas like infant classes, libraries, IT etc.

The caretaker and clerical assistant issue has been long neglected, going back as far as the PESP provision which was never implemented. I take Deputy McGrath's point about the position pertaining to CE schemes. There has perhaps been an unhealthy dependence on the schemes within education and the issue must be examined. We will work with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to minimise the short-term impact on education and work out a strategy not to leave schools short.

I thank Deputy McGrath for his query on transport. Heretofore the position was that there was an annual provision of £150,000 for escorts, harnesses and services for pupils with special needs. That was a result of a pilot scheme introduced by the former Minister, Ms Bhreathnach, in 1994. It lasted a long time for a pilot scheme and catered for about one in 12 of the pupils who needed the service.

The School Transport Review Committee, established by the previous Government, reported in 1997 and recommended a system of increased charges, for instance, that we charge families with medical cards and that we introduce charges for the primary sector for the first time in the history of the school transport scheme. It was estimated at that time that this would raise between £4.25 million and £4.5 million and the committee recommended we spend in excess of £3 million of those proposed increased charges on introducing a scheme of escorts and harnesses on school buses. I am delighted we have managed to introduce such a scheme without resorting to increased charges.

The Minister, Deputy Martin, has managed to persuade his Cabinet colleagues, particularly the Minister for Finance, that funding of that nature should come from the Exchequer. A sum of £3.4 million has been allocated to implement a system of escorts and harness for all special needs buses throughout the State. It will be phased in over two years. We expect that the first tranche will be spent by the end of the school year which starts in September. It might appear that there would be a rush to take up this unexpected and generous offer but it is difficult to put in place on an administrative basis.

We are making progress and have reached agreement with the school management authorities.

On the point about the system of harnesses, when it is in place this problem will not arise for a child with a physical disability but the question of children with mental disabilities remains. The Deputy's suggestion has been noted and merits consideration.

As regards ratio, the Department of the Environment and Local Government contacted us some time ago and asked us various questions about the safety of the school transport system. The primary thing it had in mind was the 3:2 ratio. It asked us to estimate how much it would cost to reduce that to a ratio of one:one in the post-primary sector. We have carried out the evaluation and are about to send a reply, if we have not already done so. It would cost £15 million extra per annum, an increase of 40 per cent on what the Exchequer spends on school transport. The Department asked the question and we sent the reply. We will see what happens from there.

It struck me as extraordinary that the Department cannot tell us how many remedial teachers are deployed to look after clusters of four, five and six schools. That should be basic information which the Department should have no trouble in assembling. In reply to repeated questions in the Dáil, however, it is said that this is too troublesome a task. If we are to look seriously at remedial education, we should look at this sort of information which should be routinely collected by the Department. The reality is that the review showed that where remedial teachers were spread between large clusters of schools, they were ineffective.

The Minister's point that the remedial teacher should support the classroom teacher is well made but, in practical terms, if a person goes to a number of schools and takes remedial pupils with differing needs from a number of classes, it is impossible for the remedial teacher to develop a programme with the classroom teacher in the time available. It is crucial to look at how we are deploying resources. I am far from happy that the Department is serious about the remedial area. It is a straw in the wind that it does not have this information, that it does not take seriously the negative review of that programme. We must look at the whole remedial programme on foot of that report. That is an area in which there should be a major effort.

I find it frustrating that the budget for special needs or pre-school education has not been mentioned. The debate would be more meaningful if the Department presented a special education budget which showed what is being done in child care assistance, special schools, etc. We could develop a more serious debate if that was done. The Department should look hard at the manner in which it presents its budgetary programmes. Coupled with evaluation, that would lead to more meaningful dialogue in this committee than has been the case.

The Minister adverted to the fact that he is reducing the maximum class level to 30. He insists, however, that this is advantageous for disadvantaged schools. It was my understanding that all disadvantaged schools had a maximum class size of 29. If the Minister is dedicating extra resources to reducing class sizes to 30, that means none of the extra teachers will be going into disadvantaged schools. That is a source of concern.

I know the Minister is committed to the psychological service but it is strange that the Estimate shows an increase of £140,000 under grants and services to the psychological development service. That is a very small sum. The Minister said he spent £500 million extra on the education system in two years but there seem to be difficulties in getting this psychological service off the ground. The Minister has repeatedly stated that he is recruiting 25 extra psychologists. If I had a penny for every time I heard him say that I would be wealthy man. What is the problem?

There is provision for the National Education Psychological Service of £0.5 million under the miscellaneous heading.

That is a small sum for the ambitions in this area.

It is £0.5 million in the current year. That will facilitate the recruitment of 25 psychologists.

That will be facilitated by £100,000.

No. The sum is £0.5 million.

We are increasing the figure from £400,000 to £540, 000, an extra £140,000. That will not make much of a difference.

The Deputy is thinking of the 15 psychologists recruited last year. There is a separate provision for the psychological service.

Is that subhead F1.V?

No, subhead B17 — OME, Vote 26.

Under the senior Minister's office?

Yes. Last year the recruitment of 15 people took place under the old system prior to the establishment of the psychological service agency. The psychologists were recruited at Mary Immaculate College. The interviews for the 25 psychologists are already under way. They will be recruited this year.

It has taken much longer to get off the ground that I had hoped given the Minister's commitment to it. We must spend more on special education; they are the gatekeepers. The scheme needs to be expanded. I was pleased to hear that the Minister had agreed that some schools could have private assessments carried out. That is a good temporary arrangement. The service needs to be expanded more quickly to match our ambitions.

I welcome the re-examination of capitation and the attempt by the Department to bring it onto an objective basis. Managing a school in a disadvantaged area is different to managing one in an advantaged area. I did not see any mention in the Minister's comments that need would be looked at when capitation was being reviewed. The disadvantaged area study showed that even with disadvantaged capitation of £30 extra, it did not equalise the relationship between disadvantaged and advantaged schools. Any serious review must look at the capacity of the schools to come with some private fund raising That should be built into the review. Like Deputy McGrath I would like to see the circular on special education. I am sure there will be interest in it as we develop it.

There is a section on special services for children in care. What sort of inspector's report is furnished to the Minister on schools for children in care? Are there good reporting mechanisms and is there a good inspection system? I presume many of these are children who got into trouble of one sort or another. There is obviously a greater focus on the matter following the report on the industrial schools. Is the Department satisfied that it has a good handle on what is happening — recidivism as against progression? Is there a good picture of the success of schools involving children who have got into trouble? We need to look more at the success of that area.

I visited the centres concerned. Last year when I visited St. Michael's remand centre I was a little taken aback at the poor accommodation. Over the years these schools have been neglected on the capital side in an unacceptable manner. They were covered by a separate subhead with negligible funding despite the fact that development plans have been on the drawing board for five or six years. We immediately instructed officials to go ahead with the complete refurbishment development of St. Michael's remand centre because the conditions are unacceptable in this day and age. The rooms were very small and, from my perspective as a lay person looking at it, there was no ventilation. It was not really fit for young people.

We have sanctioned an overall development project for the centre costing as much as £25 million. Obviously it must be implemented on a phased basis to facilitate the refurbishment and extension of existing premises and the building of new ones.

In terms of the content of education, the chief inspector is responsible for the inspection and there is a dedicated inspector along with a child care adviser to monitor the performance of the schools and to report to the Department on improvements which may be necessary.

There is quite a considerable level of follow-up. The concept of half-way houses is being developed, particularly in terms of St. Michael's and Oberstown boys' and girls' centres. When a person is due to leave, he or she is not just let go. An attempt is made to develop a half-way house system where young people and children are given added supports once the term is up, to help them return to normal life. We are providing the accommodation for that.

In addition, it is good to see the young people in the centres attending secondary schools in the adjacent area.

Why does the Minister not publish that report? I know that he said in reply to a parliamentary question that he was not disposed to publishing that sort of report. It seems to me it is reasonable to expect that information in this area would now become public.

I did not say I would not do it. I just stated that these reports are not published at present. I will take on board the Deputy's comments.

It would be sensible on the grounds of transparency. It would give us a chance to ensure that the problem, which the Minister discovered, will not recur.

Absolutely. I could not believe my eyes.

The cost of keeping a young person in one of these centres is about £80,000 per year. The recidivism rate is in the region of 80 per cent.

The costs are necessary. There are different centres with different degrees of risk. Many of the youngsters need these extra supports. They range from personal supports to develop self-confidence and self-esteem and self-respect programmes within the centres. To be honest, the cost issue is not the one on which I would concentrate my mind most. The issue, as Deputy Bruton stated, is whether we are making progress. Are we changing and making a difference in the individual lives of these young people? That is the key criterion. I am not satisfied that we are doing so and we need to be vigilant in that respect. We need to improve performance.

I apologise for hopping in and out of the meeting. I am afraid that is the disadvantage of having three committees meeting at the same time. I do not mean any discourtesy to the Minister. I may have missed some of the points he made.

I welcome the significant input in the equality of opportunity in education projects. Some of us, who represent parts of this city and elsewhere where there is not much equality of opportunity and the level of school absenteeism and drop-out is unsatisfactory, know that is a good investment.

I compliment the Minister on the dramatic improvement in the school buildings division of the Department also. The recent appointments have expedited much of the backlog of work. One of problems the Minister will encounter is that there will not be a queue of companies to tender for the work because there is a shortage of personnel.

I want to throw in my tuppence worth on the subject of school caretakers. Nothing can be done immediately but, as Deputy McGrath said, many school caretakers were appointed in the 1980s. I am talking about full-time caretakers and not those on the CE schemes. When they come to retirement age they will not be replaced. Almost inevitably the numbers in the schools will have dropped. The contribution from the Department towards the appointment of a caretaker is not adequate to recruit replacement caretakers. The school grounds grow the same amount of grass whether there are 140 or 340 students in the school. We all know the arguments. It is time to lay down a strategy for the provision of school caretakers and secretaries. Principals are becoming busier. They are becoming more preoccupied with the jobs they have been doing all along but their role has been significantly enhanced. One of the enhancements must be the provision of support services, such as a secretary and caretaker. Like most other things, a start must be made sooner or later. I encourage the Minister to look at the area, if not in the coming year, later down the line before it becomes a problem which is too difficult to handle. Most other issues have been raised and I do not want to go over old ground.

I accept much of what the Deputy said in respect of the caretakers and secretaries issue. It is an issue which is receiving consideration by me and the Department. There are obviously implications for resources. Clearly a number of the small schools are disadvantaged compared to other schools in terms of the services which are available. I will take on board the Deputy's comments in that regard.

Deputy O'Shea raised the issue of pensions parity and the Minister did not get an opportunity to reply. There is considerable interest in the issue. I am not sure I fully understand all the twists and turns in it but I know there is a good deal of interest in it.

He also referred to the payment of back money.

I understand that two thirds of the arrears have now been paid. I pay tribute to my staff in the salaries section. Part of the problem with the arrears has been the PCW agreement itself. The logistics involved are extraordinary. Every single pensions payment must be dealt with on an individual basis and involves individual calculations. If there is any lesson for future social partnership agreements, it is to avoid the complexities which were inherent in the PCW agreement not just in the pensions area but in the whole salaries area. It has caused enormous logistical problems within the Department and considerable strains on staff. I inherited that situation but, nonetheless, I can pass on the experience to others who may come after me. It is something we must watch. I am not happy that it has taken so long to pay pensioners their entitlements.

On the parity issue, two years ago the Government decided there would be parity for pensioners across the public service, it reached an agreement with Congress on that and the Department of Finance made the funding available. There are still some outstanding issues being raised by a number of pension groups in different sectors. I do not have in my possession details of the individual representations on that. However, as a general principle, my understanding of the Government decision of three years ago is that parity has been agreed and payment has been made.

Is it not the case that some elements of the settlement for teachers were deemed to be specially related to changes in their duties but are not being applied?

Some representations were made in respect of principals with regard to the change in the allowance structure and levels of payment.

That is difficult to explain to——

We received a presentation from the Retired Principals' Network on that matter and it is currently under consideration.

If conditions were different they might state that——

They were worse.

——they were finding it more difficult to manage.

I accept that.

Will the Minister reconsider the position?

The industrial relations section in my Department is examining the submission at present.

For next year will consideration be given to presenting the budget in a more reasonable and meaningful way in order that we might see what is happening?

Vote 28 — Second Level and Further Education (Revised).

Vote 29 — Third Level and Further Education (Revised).

We will now deal with Vote 28.

With regard to second level and further education, perhaps my point may be more relevant to third level education but I welcome the initiative introduced by the Minister whereby everyone should be paid the non-adjacent rate. That makes good sense. It was crazy in the past that if a person from Mullingar attended college in Cork, the latter city would become their place of residence. Will every mature student be paid the non-adjacent rate? In other words, will a person living within the 15 mile limit in Cork be paid at the non-adjacent rate irrespective of whether they are a mature student? Will it apply to mature students whose courses have already commenced and who may be starting second year in September? Will the full non-adjacent rate only apply to students whose courses begin in September?

The Deputy is referring to third level education which is not relevant to this Vote. We will return to his point after this Vote which deals with second level and further education.

The change was not introduced last year so students could not avail of it. Students moving from first to second year in September will be able to avail of it. This is a time for democracy. On a point of information, when I was in Opposition I was informed that this change would cost £12 million.

The Minister spoke at length about physics and chemistry in second level schools. In his opening contribution, he referred to a number of worthwhile initiatives which have been introduced. In my area there is a very progressive second level girls' school where in excess of 80 per cent of students take science subjects. The school to which I refer has two run down laboratories and there is an urgent need for capital investment at that school and others like it. Science laboratories in many of the older voluntary secondary schools have not been updated. Perhaps the Minister could fast-track the commitment from his Department to provide capital for those schools.

Has the school to which the Deputy referred made an application?

Yes. The application made by the school, Loretto Convent, Mullingar, is with the Department.

That is the intention behind the programme. The Deputy correctly identified the voluntary secondary school system as having outdated laboratories. As I travel to more areas throughout the country, I am beginning to suspect that the fact that schools must produce 15 per cent of their funding must have inhibited religious orders and patrons coming forward to seek investment for extensions and renovations. Now that this stipulation has been removed more of them are coming forward. However, if 80 per cent of the students at the school to which the Deputy referred are taking science subjects, we will have to give urgent consideration to the matter.

The number taking those subjects may possibly be higher. I will have to consult the figures again. The provision of £10 for each student taking physics and chemistry is worthwhile. However, will this have a marked effect on the level of a school's expenditure or does it represent a drop in the ocean in terms of expenditure needed?

My second point relates to An Gúm, but I do not know whether that organisation's activities relate to first or second level education — Deputy O'Shea made a brief reference to it earlier. I would like to see a breakdown of the money expended through An Gúm because ten years ago recommendations emerged within the Department that funding to parts of An Gúm should be scrapped altogether. The organisation was revitalised in 1987, but has the question of whether it is worthwhile to expend money on Irish publications etc. been reviewed since? We would be foolish politicians if we criticised an organisation whose activities are devoted to the promotion of the Irish language, nonetheless, we must be accountable for taxpayers' money. If An Gúm is being effective and there are decided advantages in providing it with grant-aid for its publications, things should continue as normal. However, if it is discovered that An Gúm is not worthwhile we must have the gumption to scrap it.

Specific sums were not mentioned in respect of funding provided from the national lottery. However, there are nine headings listed in the Estimates before us under which lottery funds were used. In this age of plenty, is it not a shame that lottery funds must be substituted for mainline Government spending. Surely those lottery funds should be directed towards the matters which come under the portfolio of the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Deputy McDaid, rather than replacing what in the past would have been mainline Government spending on capital projects, adult education, youth organisations, library grants etc. Surely funding for these areas should emanate from mainline spending rather than from lottery funds.

The level of national lottery funding provided is quite low. The main part of it is used for grants-in-aid and most of it is spent on youth activities. Lottery funding was originally intended for youth and sport and, in view of the fact that Deputy O'Dea, as Minister of State, retains responsibility for youth affairs, the portion of the funding allocated in respect of youth comes to my Department.

What is the total amount of this funding?

Some £14.8 million is allocated in respect of youth, approximately £513,000 goes to adult education, £592,000 is allocated in respect of courses in Irish——

I presume that is only part funded from lottery moneys?

What is the total amount of funding the Department receives from the national lottery?

It receives £26.759 million, or 1 per cent of the overall budget. Pending the successful implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, responsibility for An Gúm will be transferred to the North-South body which will be established later in the year. Most of the funding for An Gúm comes from national lottery money. An Gúm's main activities involve the preparation and publication of material in Irish for students in all-Irish schools and children in general. Its publications include children's books, primary, post-primary and third level textbooks, terminological dictionaries, music and new editions of earlier classics. I attended the launch of a number of these publications in the past year. An Gúm also makes payments to artists, translators, authors, printers etc. during the course of preparing and printing its publications. In 1998 it published 27 general readers, 15 primary texts, 14 post-primary texts, two music texts and six dictionaries. Therefore, An Gúm issued a total of 64 publications in 1998 alone which represents a significant degree of activity.

The Deputy inquired about how we judge the effectiveness of An Gúm. Sometimes we are complacent about existing services and tend to take them for granted. We only realise how valuable they are when they are removed. If a Minister decided to abolish An Gúm and all it represents, there would be a hue and cry. I am not saying that is the reason that has not happened. Many people feel it provides a valuable service, particularly in Irish language publications. I hope the special body being established under the Education Act, which will be responsible for the teaching of Irish and teaching through Irish, working with an Gúm, will give an expanded and improved service to those teaching through Irish and the public who wish to read more Irish books.

I was not suggesting it should be abolished. Different projects are funded within An Gúm. These should be looked at. A recommendation was made in a report by the Department more than ten years ago that certain aspects of the work funded by An Gúm should be scrapped. Perhaps that report should be looked at and updated to see if that recommendation is worthwhile. There is a great value in publishing books in Irish. However, the Minister said six Irish dictionaries were published by An Gúm in one year. Why would six dictionaries be necessary?

One of them was a dictionary of biology. The problem with teaching through Irish is that there are not many textbooks available. It is a serious issue, particularly as regards gaelscoileanna and scoileanna sna Ghaeltachtaí. They consistently argue there is a shortage of resource material and textbooks in Irish. For example, the provision of a dictionary of biology is important for children in Gaeltacht areas to learn biology through Irish, which is their right, as it is with regard to all subjects.

We have some distance to go towards achieving a more comprehensive provision in that area. Deputy McGrath asked about chemistry and the £10 payment. An internal team was established in the Department comprising the inspectorate and those involved in the administration science subjects to conduct a fundamental review of science subjects and devise a plan to increase participation rates in physics and chemistry because of the declining percentage in students taking those subjects. Its recommendation was a £10 payment per student which would be sufficient to buy extra materials. We will keep that under review. The overall sum due is £300,000. We will see if it has made any impact after the implementation of the fee. I accept the point made by the Deputy about the refurbishment of existing science laboratories, which is essential.

I am pleased there is an increase in the budget for adult literacy. To what extent has the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, been able to address the problems of the adult literacy services? When representatives from this service appeared before the committee, it was clear they were operating on a shoestring. They do not have a proper training scheme, a professional status and did not have enough back-up to run the services professionally. How far has the Minister of State gone in making those services more professional? The Further Education Authority seems to be getting a new lease of life with an allocation of £250,000. Where is the authority in the pantheon of Departmental thinking at the moment?

On the North-South bodies, the Minister said the role of a number of bodies is changing. To what extent have consultations taken place in the context of the establishment of North-South bodies? It seems that certain people have not been properly consulted on the proposed changes. Has it been thought through fully and do people know how they will operate under future structures?

The Minister said there would be changes in the way staffing ratios are determined. However, the text of his statement seemed to indicate that only a new higher retention ratio will be introduced. The Minister said staff becoming available would be used more creatively to focus on particular needs, a suggestion which seems to be far more appealing.

My supplementary oral presentation reinforced what I said in my opening speech, that the problem is that the existing approach to staffing in schools does not give them any assurance that the appointment of an extra teacher to a school will either reduce the size of the largest classes or promote the best educational provision. Additional work is needed to more fully understand how we can deal with the issue.

It has not been done yet.

On examinations, there seems to have been a couple of papers, particularly in the leaving certificate, which caused a great deal of heartache — history and geography are most frequently mentioned. The papers, the way questions were presented etc. seems to have come from left field. Why was the presentation of these papers so unconventional? I do not know if they were, but students think so. How will the marking be adjusted to take account of the fact that they seemed to be out of kilter with what teachers prepared their students for?

The poetry section of the leaving certificate paper in pass Irish also seemed to cause concern. Students were asked questions which had not appeared on the paper before, for example, on the rhyming scheme and beat of the poetry. I know a number of teachers who were upset at this. They felt it was not fair to students at pass level and would have been the perfect question for students at honours level. Teachers struggle to help students attain a certain standard of Irish and when they see a question like this on the paper, it can be a major turn-off. I submitted a parliamentary question on the matter today.

The Deputy is very active. Perhaps the Minister of State will deal with the question on adult literacy first.

The allocation of approximately £6.9 million is divided into three parts — £4.665 million specifically for adult literacy, £1 million for community education and £1.236 million for special initiatives for disadvantaged areas. We established an adult literacy development fund when we received extra funding. Two years ago the total allocation for adult literacy and community education was £2.3 million, of which £815,000 went directly to adult literacy. I agree with the Deputy that services were operating on a shoestring. I compliment vocational education committees for the tremendous work they did with that inadequate budget. Two years ago the allocation was £815,000 and it is now £4.665 million.

The analysis of the work of the adult literacy development fund is not yet finalised. However, a sample of the report received to date indicates that the clients catered for have doubled to at least 10,000 per annum. A range of media is being used to promote the programme which gives us greater flexibility. Provision now includes nighttime, morning and daytime classes which are more flexible. A continuum from one-to-one voluntary tuition to group work to progression to certified learning options is being developed. Referral networks with FÁS. local employment service partnerships, health centres, welfare and community groups, playgroups, school libraries etc. are being expanded. Family literacy groups involving both adults and their children are running successfully and a number of open learning centres are being piloted along with literacy groups for migrant women, travellers etc.

Staff development programmes are under way on a modular in-service basis for tutors and literacy organisers in co-operation with the National Adult Literacy Agency and Waterford Institute of Technology, leading to national certification from the National Council for Educational Awards. In addition, we have allocated £500,000 to pilot part-time options under VTOS, Youthreach and PLC courses and 900 places will be available. Furthermore, we are in a position to provide adult literacy over the airwaves. We are running two schemes, one in Tipperary and one in Mayo, which we are evaluating. They have proved to be enormously successful. We are also in discussion with a number of television companies and we will meet with RTE shortly with a view to providing adult literacy programmes on television. We are making good use of the money.

As there is a vote in the Dáil, I propose we conclude the select committee's consideration of the Estimates. Is that agreed? Agreed. On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for attending today's meeting.

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