SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Tuesday, 5 Dec 2000

Vol. 3 No. 9

Estimates for Public Services, 2000.

Vote 26 — Office of the Minister for Education and Science (Supplementary).

Vote 27 — First Level Education (Supplementary).

Vote 28 — Second Level and Further Education (Supplementary).

Vote 29 — Third Level and Further Education (Revised).

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Woods and Mr. Seán Harkin. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider Supplementary Estimates within the aegis of the Department of Education and Science. The following Supplementary Estimates have been referred to the Select Committee by the Dáil: Vote 26, Office of the Minister for Education and Science; Vote 27, First Level Education; Vote 28, Second Level and Further Education and Vote 29, Third Level and Further Education.

The proposed timetable for consideration of the Supplementary Estimates has been circulated. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed.

The Minister is obliged to leave before 7 o'clock. With the agreement of the Select Committee we will consider Vote 28 before Vote 26.

Minister for Education and Science (Dr. Woods)

The Taoiseach is away and he has asked me to stand in for him on the debate on Private Member's time.

Chairman

Is it agreed that we take Vote 28 before Vote 26?

Mr. Sargent

As we are under pressure of time, I will not insist on speaking for the whole time.

Dr. Woods

The Supplementary Estimates for the Education and Science group of Votes, which total £192.492 million, are required for the year 2000. The net amounts required for each Vote are Vote 26, Office of the Minister for Education and Science, £107,000; Vote 27, First Level Education, £49.75 million; Vote 28, Second Level and Further Education, £95.4 million and Vote 29, Third Level and Further Education, £47.235 million.

These Supplementary Estimates arise mainly for the following reasons. I intend to arrange for an early payment of capitation grants for primary and secondary schools in respect of the 2000-01 school year. These payments would normally be made in January/February of next year. Capitation grants totalling almost £38 million will be paid before Christmas to improve the cash flow of schools, many of which incurred higher than usual costs in recent months. The standard primary capitation grant, which stood at £45 in 1997, has increased to £71 per pupil in the current year and will be further increased to £80 per pupil for the next school year. At second level, the capitation grant has increased from £177 in 1997 to £192 for the current year and to £202 for the next school year. These developments will make a significant contribution towards improving the financial position of schools.

I wish to make an additional £17 million available in capital funding for second level schools in the current year to maintain the momentum of improvement in this sector. This will bring the allocation to over £120 million this year. This is a four fold increase over the 1997 Estimate allocation provided for by the previous Government and enables major progress to be made in developing and modernising second level school buildings.

A total of £8 million is required for the purchase of ten acres of additional land by Dublin City University to enable it to expand the research element of its activity which cannot be accommodated within its existing campus. There will be matching funding for the site purchase from private sources.

An additional sum of £5.8 million is required to meet the cost of extra special needs assistants in primary schools. Since taking office, the Government has undertaken an unprecedented level of development in special education services. The Government decision is ensuring that all children with special needs within the primary system now have an automatic entitlement to a response appropriate to their disability and location. More than 1,400 special needs posts have been sanctioned to date under this new policy.

I am seeking an extra provision of £4.5 million mainly to fund the cost of additional resource teacher posts and to provide teacher posts for the primary education of children of foreign nationals, refugees and asylum seekers. I introduced a new scheme in February of this year for this purpose to cater for each group of 15 pupils with significant English language deficits. Additional resource posts are allocated to schools where there are a number of pupils with identified special needs. The posts are now allocated on demand and it is not possible to forecast with accuracy the number of such posts that will be required in each school year.

An additional £2 million is required to fund improvements to the first level caretaker/clerical assistance schemes. At primary level, my Department provides funding towards the cost of secretarial and caretaking services under two separate schemes. One scheme is the 1978-79 scheme for the employment of school secretaries and caretakers under which my Department meets the full cost of salary and employer's PRSI. However, this scheme was superseded in the PESP Agreement of 1992 by a more extensive grant scheme.

The PESP scheme provides additional per capita grants for primary schools towards secretarial and caretaking services. Under this scheme, qualifying schools receive grants of £40 per pupil — £20 per pupil in respect of each service — subject to a maximum of £20,000 per annum — a maximum of £10,000 in respect of each service. These grants are paid as additions to the standard per capita grants The scheme, by its nature, is flexible and gives boards of management discretion on the manner in which secretarial and caretaking services are to be provided.

I increased the rates of grant by 33 % from £30 per pupil to £40 per pupil with effect from January this year. Furthermore, with effect from September of this year, I extended the scheme to all primary schools. In addition, I have set a minimum grant of £2,400 per annum which is payable to all schools with 60 pupils or fewer. These improvements mean that, with effect from September 2000, all primary schools will receive an annual grant to assist them with the provision of secretarial and caretaking services. The Government's commitment in this regard can also be measured by the fact that the funding allocated for this purpose, which was approximately £5.6 million in 1999, has increased this year to approximately £12.2 million and will further increase in 2001 to approximately £16.8 million.

A total of £8 million is sought under subhead F — Other Grants and Services — of the first level Vote mainly to enable me to provide, among other things, for a special grant to all primary schools for the development of the arts in the curriculum. Within the same subhead, Vote 27 — First Level Education — £1.4 million is required to meet the increased costs of providing grants to schools which rent temporary accommodation. The rate of grant was increased significantly last year. The remainder of the requirement sought for subhead F of the First Level Education Vote is needed to fund increased costs in the substance misuse programme, extra costs in the Early Start programme and additional expenditure on grants to certain disadvantaged schools.

I am seeking an additional £2 million in the second level Vote for subhead K to meet the cost of special grant allocations for an ICT project for children with special needs in second level schools. The project will provide state of the art technology for selected areas of disability where this is available and will focus particularly on computer assisted technology for pupils with dyslexia.

A considerable element of the Supplementary Estimate provision sought relates mainly to technical factors involving demand led expenditure subheads and appropriations-in-aid. An additional provision of £10.85 million is required for the teacher pension subheads due to considerably increased numbers of retirements and for technical accounting factors related to the earlier payment date in December for teacher pensions.

There are shortfalls in the third level free fees provision, mainly due to increased enrolments, and there are unanticipated additional superannuation costs in respect of third level institutions, the Dublin Dental Hospital and Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann. I am also providing in these Supplementary Estimates for the funding of pensions for former Carysfort staff who are now working in the third level sector.

The receipts from the European Social Fund, now projected to be received by my Department as appropriations-in-aid for Vote 28 and Vote 29 before the end of 2000, are approximately £88 million lower than originally estimated. The Supplementary Estimates rectify this shortfall, which is due principally to administrative delays within the EU Commission.

The publication of the Abridged Estimates for 2001 and the budgetary process for next year have, as Deputies will be aware, already resulted in my Department being in a position to implement further significant improvements to the benefit of all levels of education. These Supplementary Estimates show that during this year additional funding has been allocated, beyond an already generous provision, and has been targeted at a number of welcome developments. The Government has made education a top priority for its term of office and these Supplementary Estimates are further evidence of its commitment to the sector. They underpin an unprecedented level of funding for developing and improving current and capital provision and they allow for substantially increased allocations for pupils with special needs.

The additional activities for which the Supplementary Estimates will provide will serve as an excellent foundation for further improvements which we will be able to implement over the coming year. I commend the Supplementary Estimates to the committee.

Chairman

I also welcome my constituency colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, and Ms Bláithin Dowling from the Department.

Mr. Kenny

This is my first education Estimate since 1985 when I handled an Estimate as a Minister of State and I am glad to be part of this debate. The Minister presides over an extremely important Department. The reputation and integrity of Ireland at home and abroad has been built through our education system. However, despite the picture that might be painted in the Estimates this year and next, it is in crisis.

I cannot deal with the detail of the Supplementary Estimates without mentioning that over 12,000 teachers protested on the streets today not because of the pay issue but due to the frustration and deep sense of malaise that exists in the profession in general. This is accounted for by an accumulation of difficulties, such as a lack of facilities, resources and recognition. This is despite the fact that there are many committed and brilliant teachers. Some have concluded that teaching is not for them, but there is no way out. The issues of remuneration and the treatment of the incremental scales have been considered by the Minister in the past few weeks. These Supplementary Estimates reflect the Government's thinking on this.

If the dispute extends beyond Christmas there will be serious trouble because the oral examinations and CAO applications have to be dealt with. This will place unprecedented pressure on students and will be a cause of grave concern to their parents and teachers. If the teaching profession wants the establishment of a forum where issues of concern can be debated and addressed independently and where, in their own words, "meaningful discussions" can take place, I would urge the Minister to give this aspect serious consideration. A forum similar to what was established in nursing would be able to deal with all the difficulties involved, from the classroom out as distinct from the Department in. It may clarify the issues of remuneration, recognition and professionalism.

I commend the Minister on commissioning the report chaired by a former Secretary to the Department of Finance, Seán Cromien. It is an indictment of the Department. That is not the fault of the Minister or his officials — the situation in the Department evolved over the years. It needs a radical shake up. As a former teacher who served in it, I believe that if the country is to hold its place internationally we need to invest heavily in a highly motivated education system that leads internationally, is responsive to the needs of students and is one in which we can all be justly proud. I am sure the Minister shares that concern. To secure such a system the State must invest in it, including in those who are at the coalface in terms of assistance, such as the teachers.

The Minister may not have time to answer my questions but I am sure his officials will be able to do so. With regard to the additional funding of £49.75 million for Vote 27, the factors that give rise to the Supplementary Estimates state under note 1 that they are for early payment of capitation grants for primary and secondary schools in respect of the 2000-01 school year. How much of that refers to 2001? Is the funding for 2001 being financed from surplus funds in the 2000 budget? If so, it would represent a massaging of the figures. Note 6 states it is an underestimation of the provision for primary teachers' pay and other costs not provided for in the Estimates for 2000. Why has it not been provided here? Was there not a major surplus in 1999 also? Notes 1 and 6 appear to be contradictory and clarification is required.

With regard to the Office of the Minister for Education and Science, under subhead A7 consultancy services are increased by 31% for 2001. What projects are involved and who are the consultants? Under subhead B5 there is an increase of 72% in the 2000 figure provided for research and development. What is involved here? What projects are involved?

Subhead B8 refers to the grant in aid for youth activities. What activities cause a 65% increase in funding, from £7.5 million to £12.23 million? Why has expenditure on capital programmes increased from £3.75 million to £12.23 million? Under subhead B17, miscellaneous, funding is increased by 146% to £21.48 million. What is involved here? Why do appropriations-in-aid show a decrease of £6 million?

A number of other issues are of concern. Thousands of students have taken to the streets in the past weeks to protest about maintenance grant levels. A great number of students still have to travel to attend university. The housing crisis has meant that rents in the private rented sector have increased by 94%. By contrast, the capitation grant has increased by only a small percentage. A third level grant of £49 per week is completely inadequate. I am not sure if this will be addressed in tomorrow's budget, but the students' campaign to increase the grant to social welfare remits is justified, if not in every case then certainly in cases where students must rely on the private rented sector for accommodation.

Other issues associated with these student campaigns, be it materials for arts, engineering or science, need to be addressed. A number of my relatives are involved in third level. They need to work part-time, especially at weekends, to make ends meet. A law student may be required to attend only a few hours of lectures or tutorials per week but will be expected to read for 30 to 40 hours. It is difficult for students to fulfil these requirements to the best of their ability if they have to work for long periods over the weekends for what in some instances is relatively small amounts of money.

Chairman

Deputy, please return to the Supplementary Estimates in question.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister's initiative in the area of special learning and disadvantaged children is very worthy. However, it will require concentrated attention over a prolonged period. The O'Donoghue case set out the rights of children under the Constitution and the Sinnott case determined the range of neglect by the State. The Minister has responded in the areas of autism and other special needs. Greater focus is required if we are to ensure that every child has a planned educational achievement to the best of his or her ability.

Ms Shortall

It is important to view these Supplementary Estimates in the context of what is happening in education. The Minister received a critical and damning end of term report from the Cromien task force. I hope the committee will invite Mr. Cromien to return early in the new year to discuss the implications of the report and the action to be taken on foot of it.

Given this background, some of the provisions in these Supplementary Estimates are not surprising. Education has been overlooked in recent times. There have been periods in our history where great advances were made, but these tended to be followed by a fading into the background of education as a political issue. That happened over the past couple of years but it has now become a live issue again.

Teachers are finding it increasingly difficult to function and run a quality education system on the basis of the very inadequate funding provided, even in terms of operating schools to an acceptable level. It cannot be denied that the inadequacy of the general funding to education is having a huge impact, not only on the education prospects of the children that the system is supposed to serve, but also on those working within it. That is evidenced by the teachers on the street this afternoon and the industrial action over recent weeks. There is discontent and dissatisfaction among the other teaching bodies and there is a strong sense that education has been overlooked and teachers are being squeezed. Increasingly teachers are left to pick up the pieces in a society that is not functioning properly. They work in inadequate prefabs and run down buildings, to try to deal with an increasing number of social problems in the classroom, to cope with new curricula and examination systems and to meet the needs of children without the necessary support services, such as psychological and counselling services and so on. Many teachers feel they are short-changing their students because of the lack of political priority attaching to the system.

Spending on the education system in Ireland in comparison to our European partners leaves a great deal to be desired. Spending on the primary sector is very much below the average spend on the sector in other European countries. The gap is particularly marked in the primary sector but there is a gap in the post-primary sector where Ireland only spends 75% of the EU average while the third level figure is closer to what our neighbours spend.

There has been a problem over the years. Those who are most vocal get educational support. Third level students tend to be vocal and good luck to them. Governments have responded to their demands, yet nobody campaigns or speaks on behalf of those at the lower levels, particularly those who drop out of the system early and who do not necessarily have advocates working for them. The increase in social problems is related to inadequate education provision and that comes up time and time again, whether within the local drugs task forces or the local partnership companies.

There is a realisation that the education system is failing a significant number of children. Part and parcel of the reason for that failure is the inadequate structures within the Department. There is no local face to the Department in tackling social problems in the community. The local partnership approach has been adopted by almost every other Government Department is the social sphere, except the Department of Education and Science. That point is made forcefully by Mr. Sean Cromien. I have no doubt his experience over the past three years working on an education task force in the Ballymun area has brought home to him how centralised and unresponsive is the Department.

The unresponsiveness, unwieldy and centralised nature of the Department explains to a large extent why it has been significantly under funded. It is extraordinary given that all of us are familiar with schools in our constituencies that are in a hopeless condition crying out for new windows, heating systems, resurfacing of school yards and the general refurbishment required because of the age of the school stock and the huge demands which exist in all schools. It is incredible, there is under spending of £33 million in capital expenditure. The bottom line figure in the original Estimate was £16 billion but that includes an overspend of £17 million. The Department did not use £33 million in capital expenditure this year and it is hard to reconcile that with the fact so many schools are starved funds. I would like the Minister to provide detailed information on how such a scenario arose.

An under spend of £20 million in the Minister's office is included in the £30 million. In the context of what is promised in terms of IT, school principals are contacting me who are still fundraising to buy computers, yet with all the hype surrounding announcements made by the Minister's predecessor significant moneys are unspent for the past year and that is a scandal. Why was the Minister unable to spend that money? It is a disgrace in the context of people having to fund raise.

What is the Minister doing to bring capitation payments forward? Ostensibly this is because of cash flow problems within schools. I suspect there are serious cash flow problems in schools but bringing forward payments will not tackle it. Major capitation increases are needed to improve general funding in schools. What does the Minister hope to achieve by bringing the payments forward? How will he catch up next year when there will be similar cash flow problems, not just in December but much earlier in the year? Is the Minister doing this for accounting purposes? If he is doing so to deal with cash flow problems why not face up to the reality that he is substantially under funding schools and the capitation grants available to schools do not even meet half of the regular running costs of schools?

Given the booming economy and the Government's spending left, right and centre, it is an absolute scandal that primary and secondary schools are under funded and pupils, teachers, parents and school principals, in particular, must devote huge amounts of time to fundraising activities. It is a disgrace that schools must organise sponsored walks and sales of works and that principals devote the bulk of their time to such activities at the expense of addressing the educational issues in their schools.

What does the Minister intend to do in regard to the employment of secretaries and caretakers? Much of a principal's time is taken up dealing with administrative matters. Has the Minister made provision for the extra burden of administration on teachers in implementing the Education Act and the Education (Welfare) Act, 1999? Significant provision does not seem to have been made for that. Is the Minister saying the small Supplementary Estimate for salaries provides for the full implementation of the minimum wage? If so, how does he justify the fact that an average sized school will not even be able with the grants he is providing, to employ a half time secretary and a half time caretaker? I would welcome an outline of his policy in this area.

The Minister's performance in regard to disadvantage has been extremely disappointing. He promised that 200 additional teachers would be appointed last September. He is talking about doing it now but it is a little late in the day to do so.

Overall, I would like the Minister to have appeared before the committee with a well thought out Supplementary Estimate and substantially increased Estimates for next year. Unfortunately, it is a case of tinkering with the system. Serious reform is needed overall and there is a need to put education on a proper spending footing similar to all other European countries.

Mr. Sargent

I welcome the opportunity to respond to the Minister on the Estimates. I realise the discussion is set against the highly tense and frustrated atmosphere of the ASTI dispute. From the point of view of being succinct and logical, I will go through the primary, secondary and third levels in that order.

It gives me no pleasure to say that the figures for the primary school sector appear as a series of headings which are very familiar and which have been tinkered with to show that more resources are being given to education. There is a lack of initiative and vision in the pre-school sector, for example. There is no doubt that child care is and will continue to be a hot issue for those of us in public life. The fact that we do not have a proper pre-school sector when the resources exist to make major changes shows a lack of vision, courage and initiative. We need crèches and naíonraí facilities. The Minister has responsibility for identifying why we do not have them and how we can provide more of those informal educational opportunities for young people. They are seriously lacking compared to any other country I have examined.

More resources are being allocated for additional posts. The Minister mentioned resource posts to be allocated on demand. What will be the nature of that demand? Severe pressure can be exerted in an affluent area where the parent-teacher association or the parents' association is effective. It is not always related to demand or what is justified, but fair play to them for making their voices heard. Areas of disadvantage suffer immensely at present. The shortage of teachers we discussed earlier affect the poorest children more than others. It is to be welcomed that additional posts are being allocated, but it is cynical in some ways because, without making teaching an attractive career, those posts will lie vacant in many cases. The Minister will receive the credit and kudos for announcing additional necessary posts, but he will manage to save enormous amounts of money because the teachers do not exist to fill them. We need to grasp that nettle and take stock of the reality.

Those with disabilities generally suffer from lack of teaching staff. Various witnesses came before the committee to state that remedial qualifications are hardly worth doing for the money. People do it for the love of the work and their vocation in the area, but they are certainly not encouraged to do it for the remuneration they receive for going to the trouble of obtaining a remedial teaching qualification. They need to be encouraged.

The Minister mentioned teachers retiring and a sum of £10.85 million is provided for pensions. My experience is that many teachers retire from teaching before they reach 30 and go elsewhere. The notion of people retiring when they want to have more leisure in their later years is becoming blurred in teaching because people leave at all ages.

The need for a conversion course for graduates is mentioned in the report we have just compiled. Many more resources need to be invested in that and also in the opportunities for distance learning.

The ASTI dispute brings sharp attention on the secondary sector. It is a reaction to the low morale, not simply a matter of remuneration. We compiled a report on science teaching, and the lack of success in finding teachers willing to teach science was clearly demonstrated. It comes down to teachers not feeling valued. We need to grasp that, not simply because of the ASTI dispute.

I want to clarify where demarcation lines begin and end. There is a specific but informal area of what are regarded as educational resources, namely, the Irish Seal Sanctuary. It operates on behalf of the country as a whole and was featured on "Nationwide" last night. The Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands believes it is a matter for the Minister for Education and Science. It is a facility which is visited by many children but it is not something which relates to conservation work because it does not deal with other species which are on death's door and nearly extinct. However, it is something for the education of the children of the country. Has the Minister received representations about this in the context of his allocation, given that money has not been spent? What is his Department's stance on such facilities which are widely availed of by many schools and are certainly much appreciated by many teachers in providing real life experiences which could not be relived in a classroom? This type of facility is provided by people on social welfare who are supposedly available for work but who manage to keep a facility together on which schools depend.

The information technology funding is similar to providing additional posts for teachers. Many schools of which I am aware do not have space for the equipment being made available to them, even those who can take up the equipment. A much wider view needs to be taken. If there is to be IT in schools, space will be needed for the facilities expected to be provided.

On the third level front, what is the Dublin Institute of Technology budget compared to other third level sectors? What percentage of it goes on non-pay? A considerable amount goes on staff and that tends to be a feature of the Department of Education, notwithstanding the problems of low morale and pay. I have been asked that question. Can the Minister answer it? What criteria are used to determine the budget for the Dublin Institute of Technology compared to other universities? Are they more vocational in their thrust and, thereby, dictated more by the interests of IBEC and others?

I will not repeat what was said about maintenance grants. They are very convoluted and many people are disqualified from receiving them for unjustifiable reasons. There appear to be many convoluted hurdles and hoops to be negotiated to obtain maintenance grants with the result that they are for a minority. Student accommodation is definitely needed on campus. The idea of providing student accommodation as a tax break for property developers is against the long-term interests of education. I hope it will not continue to be the sole way of providing accommodation for students. They need to be provided with accommodation on campus which is the norm in other developed countries.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and the spokespersons for their contributions. As the Minister must leave soon, perhaps he will respond to some of the questions asked?

Dr. Woods

I will have to reply briefly to a wide-ranging set of questions. I will review some of them quickly. Deputy Kenny referred to the current difficulties in teaching and I agree with him. I would rather this dispute does not go beyond Christmas. It is incomprehensible that teachers would set aside the exams, as has been threatened. I will certainly do anything I can to try to bring about a resolution to those difficulties. I do not want to repeat any of the things I said elsewhere. The teachers have four clearcut points which are clearly covered by the PPF and the independent benchmarking body.

So far they are not prepared to work with other teacher or public service unions, which creates a major difficulty that is difficult to resolve. Within the context of the public service and the PPF, I will do what I can, both behind the scenes and officially, to bring about a resolution of the problem. What happened in terms of the PPF last night answers the questions put to me in the first instance. It was suggested to me that people did not understand benchmarking and that the PPF would not deal with problems this year in terms of inflation. It was also suggested that benchmarking was not being introduced fast enough. Last night these issues were dealt with by the social partners, as I was very hopeful would happen. In practice it means the issues have been dealt with in a way any reasonable person would regard as satisfactory. Consequently, I hope the teachers, when they have had a chance to examine this development in conjunction with the budget, will see what the Government is doing to meet their requests and that it may be possible to return to school. I will do whatever I can to improve the situation.

The report by Sean Cromien was, as Deputy Kenny generously stated, my idea in the first instance. I wanted to get to the route of things and I will be acting on it. It is not simple — there are industrial relations issues to sort out in regard to all these things. I embarked on a similar process when I was in the Department of Social Welfare and I hope we can have a similar process in this context. Of course it costs money. Mr. Cromien has had discussions with the different unions and staff and I hope we can build reasonably quickly on that. Unfortunately, these things take some time to implement, but I regard it as vital and I want local involvement.

A number of Deputies raised the issue of capitation. I had requests to bring capitation forward to this year, partly because of heating costs etc. If it is necessary to do so in future years, that will be done. I very much appreciate the importance of the increase in capitation. We have given reasonably substantial increases and I am very happy to examine the overall provision in that area as we are facing a changing scene.

Most of the other points raised by Deputy Kenny concerned the Estimates for 2001, but we are now discussing the Supplementary Estimate for 2000. Students are seeking increases. There have been increases and we will see what can be done in the coming year. I have set out the moneys required for special needs required over and above the Estimates for this year.

Deputy Shortall also asked about the Cromien report and the issue of inadequate funding. I have visited a number of schools and I find teachers are delighted with what is being done. There has been a 70% increase in the Education and Science budget over the past three years, with a fourfold increase in capital funding, which has a huge impact.

I was asked about capital funding which has not been spent. This relates to the next round of computer and IT provision for schools and is more a question of the financial year and the school year not coinciding. The funding will be carried over into January. This concerns the new system of matured liabilities which means that for accounting purposes it has to be carried over to January rather than the end of this year. However, the money is being spent and the contracts have been signed.

While there has been a big increase in funding, I appreciate there are many problem areas. The difficulty is that we will not solve them all over night, one reason being the increase in prices due to demand in the construction industry. Apart from the additional money, there is a problem in terms of the number of people available for work in the construction industry. I will be doing what I can to advance this and will try to get as much done as possible. There will be major development next year.

There is a new policy in terms of prefabs. The Department does not buy prefabs and leave them there for a long time. Rather they are leased, and they are of good quality. It is important that people understand this as a number of teachers have complained in this regard. Even when there is an agreement on a project it could take between 15 and 18 months to complete. People are now beginning to realise they can pass on the new prefabs after 18 months and no longer have to wait five or ten years, as happened in the past.

In the context of disadvantage, I mentioned there were difficulties in terms of research work, which has now been completed, and I hope within the next ten days to have it available. It is a question of trying to be as fair as possible in a rural and urban context. It concerns money and jobs and will go far beyond 200 jobs.

Deputy Sargent raised the issue of crèches. We are currently carrying out a survey to see what space is available in schools and how it could be used. A reasonable number of schools is prepared to co-operate with schemes such as the breakfast clubs and the provision of crèches.

Informal education was also raised. In relation to autism, I have brought the age forward to three years. The legal age is six years and normally we operate from four years. The reduction to three years in relation to autism involves a further substantial increase in cost. In terms of special needs, I hope to go further in line with my objective, but we must first develop things for those in greatest need. I noted what was said about remedial qualifications and will examine that specifically. Seals have been moving around from one area to another. I provided some assistance for that when I had ministerial responsibility for the marine.

Mr. Kenny

Like rats in primary schools, they move around the country.

Dr. Woods

Responsibility for the zoo was removed from my Department and the zoo has since become much more efficient in its own right.

Mr. Sargent

The Minister should tell that to his colleague, the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands.

Dr. Woods

The issue of student grants was raised. The Government's target was to ensure provision was made for extra student places on campus. In excess of 7,000 additional places are being provided as a result of an initiative by the Ministers for Finance and the Environment and Local Government.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for his attendance. We move on to Supplementary Estimate, Vote 26 — the Department of Education and Science.

Deputy Farrelly assumed the Chair.

Mr. Kenny

I asked earlier about the 31% increase provided for consultancy services in 2001 and would be obliged if the Minister of State would take note of that.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Mr. Treacy)

We are dealing specifically here with the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Kenny

Would the Minister prefer if I did not ask questions about 2001?

Mr. Treacy

I would have no problem with the Deputy asking the questions but I would need an entire day to answer them. I would certainly procure the information sought by the Deputy as quickly as possible.

Mr. Kenny

I will pass over to Deputy McGrath.

Mr. McGrath

Vote 26 relates to the Irish language. Is the Irish publication producer, An Gúm, on which the Department spent in the region of £250,000 per annum, still in existence? If it is, has research been carried out on the effectiveness or impact of the money spent on it? Is the publication contract put out to tender on a regular basis because, to the best of my knowledge, the same company has provided this service to the Department for quite a long time? Will the Minister outline the tendering procedure if one exists and is he confident the Department is getting value for money?

Ms Shortall

Will the Minister provide the committee with some information on the £75 million provided under this subhead for the technology investment fund? In the context of the £20 million underspend, how much of the £75 million has been spent to date? On the £107,000 provided in the Supplementary Estimate, what are the new publications referred to?

Mr. Treacy

I compliment the committee on the important work it carries out in the area of education and science on behalf of the Parliament and am delighted to attend today's meeting.

An Gúm has done tremendous work over the years. It has been a centre of excellence in the production of Irish publications and has maintained a very strong focus on the State's behalf on publications which are important in the delivery of education, more particularly in meeting the consumer requirement which must be served in terms of people's commitment to the Irish language. B11 was formerly the subhead under which expenditure for An Gúm was included. The Deputy is probably aware that responsibility for the publication was transferred to the new cross-Border body, An Foras Teanga, and the subhead is, therefore, no longer required except to pay Veritas Limited £50,000 in respect of Catholic catechism booklets in Irish for which the Department retains responsibility. The Department makes a macro contribution to An Foras Teanga which is subdivided according to the body's various requirements.

Mr. McGrath

To whom is An Foras Teanga responsible? How can we find out about its work, value for money obtained etc.?

Mr. Treacy

It comes under the North-South bodies for which the Department of Foreign Affairs is responsible. Funding mechanisms are directed through that Department and on to the cross-Border bodies.

Mr. McGrath

So the Department of Education and Science provides funding through the Department of Foreign Affairs——

Mr. Treacy

No, the Department of Foreign Affairs receives funding through the Department of Finance from which it allocates funding to the cross-Border bodies. The Department of Education and Science retains responsibility for providing funding to Veritas for the publication of Irish booklets.

Mr. McGrath

Why was Veritas retained? Was that because the religion booklets, as distinct from other Irish publications, did not relate to an examination subject?

Mr. Treacy

This is a specialist area and Veritas are specialists. It is much easier to deal with specialists who can respond efficiently to educational publication requirements than having to seek new people. The retention of Veritas is practical and reasonable. The price is right and the job is done to the highest professional standard.

Mr. Kenny

In regard to An Gúm and An Foras Teanga, what is the status of Ulster Gallic? The Constitution gives equal status to the Irish language, but Ulster Gallic is recognised by An Foras Teanga.

Mr. Treacy

As Ulster Gallic is not being taught in our functional area, I do not think it concerns the Department at present.

Mr. Kenny

It does.

Mr. Treacy

Obviously, any recommendations made by the cross-Border bodies must be taken on board. However, this issue is something which must be considered in the totality of the bodies' operations.

Mr. Kenny

I like the phrase "the totality of the operations". That is too much of a floppy disk.

Mr. Treacy

That is a very important instrument of communications.

Mr. Kenny

Will An Gúm be likely to publish an Ulster Gallic publication?

Mr. Treacy

An Gúm is a separate institution for the Irish language.

Mr. Kenny

Yes, but the Irish language is now joint with Ulster Gallic.

Mr. Treacy

That is correct and that will be a matter for the cross-Border body, An Foras Teanga. It will be a matter for An Gúm to respond to opportunities, requirements or requests made to it. However, that is a matter for the future. As of now there is no decision on the matter. It is on the agenda but it is in the embryonic stages.

Mr. Kenny

It is a formal part of the cross-Border bodies.

Mr. Treacy

That is correct.

Mr. Kenny

So a decision has been made?

Mr. Treacy

There is a decision to include it for discussion, evolution and progress. However, there is no de facto decision that anything in particular must happen. That is now a matter for discussion.

Mr. Kenny

That is not a satisfactory response. I am asking the Minister of State is there a status attributed to the Ulster Gallic dialect by the Department of Education and Science?

Mr. Treacy

That is not our concern at this stage. It is part of the new structures on this island. The cross-Border bodies will focus on these matters.

Mr. Kenny

With respect, it is the Minister's concern. It is already agreed that it should be part of our concern. I am asking does the Department attribute any status to Ulster Gallic? This is important to some people, not to many.

Mr. Treacy

Of course the Department attributes importance to it. However, the Department can only respond to recommendations or decisions taken by An Foras Teanga as part of the cross-Border body. It would be a joint ministerial decision. The Deputy is talking futuristic.

Mr. Kenny

Ulster Gallic existed long before we came along.

Mr. Treacy

Definitely, and it will probably exist long after we move on.

Mr. Kenny

I am not talking futuristic. I am talking about the present status of the language. The Minister of State brought up the question of the cross-Border bodies, macro economic contributions and so on. I am asking the Minister of State the simple question, what is the status of Ulster Gallic in so far as his Department is concerned?

Mr. Treacy

The status of Ulster Gallic as far as my Department is concerned is that it is part of the heritage of the island of Ireland. It has a unique position in Ulster. It is something we respect and will embrace if requested to do so as a result of a decision taken by the cross-Border bodies by virtue of a joint ministerial agreement.

Mr. Kenny

If it is part of our cultural tradition, is there any allocation in the Estimate in respect of Ulster Gallic to foster good relations with our cultural brethren in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Treacy

There is a provision for North-South development. It is under that umbrella that we can respond to requirements needed as a result of decisions taken by the cross-Border bodies and agreed by the two Ministers. I am very impressed by the Deputy's commitment to Ulster Gallic.

Ms Shortall

We should be paying much more attention to the way the Irish language is taught in schools and the decline in the language and trying to change the public perception of it. The Department is certainly failing in that regard. How much of the £75 million set aside in this year's Estimates for IT has been spent?

Mr. Treacy

There is £280 million in that fund. The allocation for this year was £75 million. We can ask the National Council for Technological Education, which has responsibility for the disbursement of the expenditure, how much it has spent since the fund began.

Ms Shortall

The Minister of State does not know.

Mr. Treacy

I do not have the information available at present but I will get it for the Deputy.

Ms Shortall

That is fine.

Chairman

We will now move to Vote 27 — First Level Education.

Mr. Kenny

I would like to raise two issues. Has the issue of the national educational psychological service been sorted out? I believe the Department has approved the appointment of more psychologists. There is a difficulty with the Department of Finance in relation to whether they are on contract to the Department. This is causing great concern to parents. Children attend school every day with a series of special learning problems that are not defined. In other words, trained teachers are unable to deal with the range and extent of these problems. They need proper psychological assessment. Psychological assessment does not extend to all schools, just to a small minority. Would the Minister of State be prepared to put in place a system whereby a mother who is very concerned about her child in primary school and who cannot avail of a psychological service at the moment can bring her child to a trained educational psychologist in a private capacity and have that cost refunded by the Department? This is very important because the current scheme, while good and worthy, will take a long time to be put in place throughout the country. It will take three years to compile a database of pupils with special needs, which is critical.

The Minister of State introduced a capitation scheme for caretakers and secretaries in primary schools. This amounts to £1,200 per year, which is a ridiculous amount considering that the FÁS element of the scheme has been withdrawn. It means that throughout Ireland principal teachers get an allowance of £1,200 to employ a caretaker and a secretarial assistant, which is impossible. A new Aldi store is opening in Castlebar this weekend and untrained 16 year olds are being offered £8 per hour. How can the Minister of State expect that the public purse should fork out an average of £1 million for a new school while the principal teacher is allocated £1,200 to employ a caretaker and a secretary. Schools must sell buns, cakes and hold raffles to try to deal with the residue of this scheme. Why is the FÁS scheme not being kept in place and topped up with the capitation scheme?

Mr. Treacy

On the psychological services, the Government is totally committed to providing a proper professional psychological service for all those children who need it.

Mr. McGrath

That is futuristic. It is not in place.

Mr. Treacy

It is not in place but we are moving towards providing the service. The Government is committed to this and the provision this year is increased to 114% for 2001. That is a huge commitment. Deputy Kenny raised a very important question to which we must give serious consideration. We are giving serious consideration to whether it is practical or feasible to have this alternative. We are considering this in the context of the current negotiations.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister of State is saying it is practical, reasonable and seasonal, but will he do it?

Mr. Treacy

There are other connotations.

Mr. Kenny

What does the Minister of State mean?

Mr. Treacy

If one does something in relation to one service, one may have to do something in relation to other services.

Mr. Kenny

There is a mother in Galway whose child has a problem. This mother cannot pay for a psychological assessment. Her child is attending a State school and is not receiving an education because the teacher cannot deal with the problem. Is the Minister of State prepared to allow that mother to bring her child to a private psychologist and refund the cost to her?

Mr. Treacy

I am prepared to consider that issue. On behalf of the Minister, we will consider that matter to see what can be done in the new year to deal with the matter.

Mr. Kenny

Will you report back to the committee?

Mr. Treacy

We will report back to the committee as soon as possible.

Over the years there has been a good partnership between the people, the Government of the day and successive Governments vis-à-vis the running of the country. That partnership must continue. It is important that parents, as primary educators, and parents’ associations co-operate and are part of the school environment and structure. Fund-raising activities such as cake sales cannot be dismissed. Involvement of that sort is good for society and for the local community and environment.

Deputy Kenny's point regarding caretakers is well made. We invest large amounts of money creating new structures for the schools and they should be maintained in a professional manner. We are constantly examining this question and have provided these services with the support of FÁS. The matter is of great concern to the Department and the Minister. We are giving the matter great attention at the moment. I hope to be able to make some positive decisions in this area in the new year. We will do our utmost to make progress as quickly as possible. We will report back as soon as we have positive results.

Mr. McGrath

With regard to psychological services, parents and teachers are being given the run around and the children are the losers. The Minister for Education will say psychological assessments are the responsibility of the local health board while the health board will say it has no concern in the matter. Meanwhile children are being pushed aside. Parents have to pay for private assessments and, in many cases, borrow money to do so. Only last week I received a letter from the Minister indicating that the Department is prepared to fund, for a child who has been diagnosed by private assessment, travel to a special class for children with dyslexia. The Department recognises the validity of these assessments and the need for follow-up measures. I cannot see why the Department will not pay for these assessments.

Mr. Treacy

For many years the Department has made special travel grants available in particular cases, due to the problems of a particular child. That is not new. Such decisions are taken on a case by case basis. We need to mainstream the delivery of psychological services throughout the country. The necessary resources are in position. We are trying to find final agreement and we hope to take positive decisions on the matter in the new year.

Mr. McGrath

Has the Minister of State had an opportunity to look at the question of safety in primary schools. While canvassing for last year's local elections my colleagues reported that the most frequent query concerned safety at school. Vehicles travel at dangerous speeds in the vicinity of primary schools and safety has become a major factor. When the Minister of State and I were children we could safely walk or cycle to school, but now a huge number of children are being driven to school. This creates other problems.

Why will the Department not provide money for safety in the environs of schools? The Department says it is the responsibility of the local authority, local authorities say they do not have sufficient money and the Department will not make money available. Does the Minister of State not think the Department has a responsibility in this area? He regularly passes a school near Kinnegad where traffic passes at frightening speeds, but the Department will not make money available for safety measures at that location. I ask the Minister of State to say something about school safety?

Mr. Treacy

School safety is a very important issue. We must protect our children. Like Deputy McGrath, I had the privilege of walking and cycling to school. The volume of traffic was small at that time. Many old schools were built on sites which are now unsafe. Bureaucracy often prevents a positive decision being made. Local authorities have a responsibility in this area and co-operation between the Department, local authorities and school management is of paramount importance. When a school principal, parents' association, board of management and local authority can reach agreement on what is required, the Department will not be found wanting.

Much good work in this regard has been done throughout the country. The problem has been addressed in many areas although more work needs to be done. If this committee wishes to address the problem and make a recommendation, that will be responded to positively. It would not be fair to say that the Department of Education and Science should be fully responsible for the safety of people outside a school gate. While it has a responsibility for children when coming to and from school and when at school, the Department can only discharge that responsibility in co-operation with the local authority and the local communities.

Much good work has been done in this area in schools in my constituency. Were it not for the commitment of communities and the local FÁS service it would not be possible to provide local services to schools, churches, community halls, cemeteries and so on. Safety measures at many such local facilities have been provided through community co-operation. I hope this is something which can be developed.

Mr. McGrath

Will the Department provide money for this matter next year?

Mr. Treacy

It is something to which we will give consideration.

Ms Shortall

Why was more than £1 million left unspent last year on first level education?

Mr. Treacy

Under what subhead?

Ms Shortall

I do not have the subhead. There was an overspend of £17 million on second level education.

Mr. Treacy

We were very accurate in predicting to within £1 million, how much would be spent on primary education. In capital programmes it is very difficult to forecast what the full cost of each programme will be. It is virtually impossible to know when they will be completed. There are many stages to be gone through, many professionals involved and time limits to be reached, and nothing can be spent until certain expenditure has been certified. If a project does not finish on time money may be left in the budget.

Ms Shortall

The budget for second level was overspent by £17 million.

Mr. Treacy

The chairman has told me I cannot discuss second level. I am simply responding to the question of the £1 million not spent on first level.

Ms Shortall

Let us forget about it. I will submit a parliamentary question to get the reply.

Mr. Treacy

I will be happy to answer the Deputy's question when we discuss second level.

Ms Shortall

That is not the point I am making.

Mr. Treacy

I can respond very briefly by giving the same answer in a different way. Projects at second level are much bigger and consequently the demand for them cannot be predicted. To fulfil commitments there was an overspend of £17 million. Because of the generosity of Government the overspend was paid and refined and reconciled within the Estimates.

Ms Shortall

It is all right. I will put down a parliamentary question.

Mr. Treacy

I would welcome that.

Ms Shortall

There is a figure of £27.5 million for an advance payment on capitation. What impact will that have on cashflow in schools next year when the already inadequate capitation payment will be reduced by £27.5 million?

A figure of £1 million is given to meet the requirement of the PCW in relation to caretakers who are employed under the PESP. Why has the Minister not introduced a Supplementary Estimate to bring the salaries of caretakers employed through grant aid up to the minimum wage? Does he accept that not increasing the grant aid for their salaries this year will result in a reduced level of service for schools which are required to pay the full minimum wage? There is a finite grant available for this purpose and caretakers will end up working a reduced number of hours.

A figure of £3.95 million is given to meet the cost of the increased number of pensioners. How many additional primary school teachers have applied for early retirement, for which this Supplementary Estimate is required?

Mr. Treacy

The sum of £27.5 million for capitation will be a major contribution to the cashflow position in schools. Schools which are under pressure will receive early payment——

Ms Shortall

I am referring to the implications of this next year.

Mr. Treacy

I am coming to that point. The £27.5 million being paid will be a contributory factor in easing the burden for next year in that the cashflow will assist the funding into next year. If there are deficits going into the new year it puts greater pressure on the school and this assistance will ease that burden.

Ms Shortall

If the Minister is bringing forward payments of £27.5 million, there will be a crisis around the middle of next year.

Mr. Treacy

This is a Supplementary Estimate for 2000. We are not discussing the Estimates for 2001. Legally we are constrained by the Supplementary Estimate we are debating——

Ms Shortall

The £27.5 million will be taken off the capitation for 2001. It is money which is being brought forward.

Mr. Treacy

We are also increasing the amount of money available for next year.

Ms Shortall

By a miserable £9 per pupil.

Mr. Treacy

That is a matter of opinion.

Ms Shortall

It will barely keep pace with inflation. Schools will run into serious funding problems around the middle of next year.

Mr. Treacy

This money will ease the pressure on school principals and their teams in that capital will be available to them quicker than is normally the case.

Ms Shortall

They will run out of money next year.

Mr. Treacy

I hope they will not run out of money. As the economy grows more money will be available. We hope to further increase the funding. We have increased the standard primary capitation grant from £45 per pupil in 1997 to £71 in the current year. This will be further increased to £80 next year, representing almost a doubling of the 1997 figure.

The £1 million has been provided as a result of permanent caretakers putting in a late claim behind other applicants for consideration under the PCW. Normally this would have been dealt with heretofore. The claim came in late and was dealt with in due course. The decision was taken and the money must be paid. The £1 million has been provided to pay it. The other situation pertaining to caretakers will be taken into account during consideration of the mainstreaming of caretakers in the new year.

Ms Shortall

The Estimates for next year do not provide for the direct employment of caretakers.

Mr. Treacy

We will look at this as the matter evolves. We are looking at each matter at present. The Estimate has not been finalised yet.

Ms Shortall

What about the retirement figures?

Mr. Treacy

On 1 June 1994 the figure for the primary sector was 5,396 pensioners and 689 spouses. On 1 November this year the figure was 7,100 pensioners and 777 spouses. There are 148ex gratia widows. The total number of people to be funded at primary level is 8,025, which is a large increase on the 1994 figure.

Mr. Sargent

On salaries and capitation, will the remedial teaching qualification be looked at again? The salary for a remedial teacher is not sufficient to attract adequate numbers into the system. Notwithstanding his bon ami in regard to cake sales, does the Minister appreciate that schools in disadvantaged areas do not have the fund-raising wherewithal that other areas have? These schools are discriminated against because they do not have an affluent support base in terms of the parents’ association. Will he consider when finalising the Estimates providing some remuneration for people who teach in disadvantaged areas? These people are becoming thin on the ground. There are allowances for Gaeltacht areas and the islands. I am not ignoring the hardship, disadvantage and difficulties in those areas, but it is time we realised there are other areas of disadvantage which are not off the coast.

I agree that the operating costs of schools are not being adequately met. Will the Minister consider the employment of part-time staff who can be attracted out of retirement? Schools need some funding for this purpose. This will be in the report which will be on the Minister's desk this Friday, if not sooner.

Mr. Treacy

We can look again at the salaries of remedial teachers, which is being addressed by the cross-Border body.

Mr. Sargent

In what context is the cross-Border body addressing this issue?

Mr. Treacy

In the context of qualifications and the supply of teachers.

Mr. Sargent

I am talking about remedial teachers who are not being remunerated in the same way as other teachers who do other degree courses.

Mr. Treacy

We will look at the issue.

Mr. Sargent

This point has been made strongly by people who have come before the committee.

Mr. Treacy

On the other points, there are more computers in disadvantaged schools than there are in other schools——

Mr. Sargent

It does not keep teachers.

Mr. Treacy

The Deputy made a good point, but we must provide services for people living on the islands and in Gaeltacht areas.

Mr. Sargent

I accept that point. However, I am asking the Minister if he will recognise that disadvantaged areas are not able to keep teachers who are obviously attracted to areas with a proper support base to organise cake sales.

Mr. Treacy

The Deputy has made his point well and I appreciate what he is saying. Since I took up office I have found that teachers in disadvantaged areas have a tremendous loyalty to their pupils and environment. We must acknowledge and support this. When we are making decisions the various difficulties are taken into account. We always focus on this and will do so again.

Chairman

On the capitation grants for primary schools, a two teacher school with 35 pupils in a disadvantaged area will use the £9 increase per pupil in a fill of oil. I have experience of the school I taught in. I was speaking to a primary school teacher last night and they are £2,000 in debt. That is a small school, and there are hundreds of them. We must take account of the serious problems that exist in some areas that are not disadvantaged areas.

Mr. Treacy

I agree.

Chairman

I would appreciate if that were taken on board for next year's Estimate. As we have only 35 minutes left in which to conclude the Vote on second level and third level, I ask Members to be as brief as possible.

Mr. Kenny

How many vacancies exist in the building unit? When will they be filled? Will it have the capacity to process applications for which money is being awarded? Arising from a number of recent cases, what system has the Department, in respect of second level schools in particular, for teachers with regard to the possibility of sex abuse? As I understand it, if a FÁS worker is taken on in a second level school, he or she has to be screened by the gardaí. There is no such screening for teachers. Principals in secondary schools occasionally get a letter from the Department asking them to report to it if X applies for a job. Is there a system or mechanism in place for screening potential sexual abusers in second level schools?

The Taoiseach announced last February that 11 major sports halls were to be built in disadvantaged areas as defined by the drugs task force. Nothing has happened in any of these cases. As regards the ombudsman for children which was announced by the Minister of State with responsibility for children recently, what is the link between that person's responsibilities and the responsibility of someone to oversee facilities for students in second level schools so that they get a proper education? Is there such a link?

RTE announced it will have an education channel under the broadcasting Bill. What will be the input of the Department of Education and Science in respect of second level schools to that channel, if any? Will the Minister comment on the inequality of funding for voluntary secondary schools? This is a big problem. Can the Minister confirm that the Department applied to the Department of Finance for a special grant to run supervision in secondary schools independently of teachers? This is a major bone of contention in the current strike.

There is a serious recruitment crisis at second level. Every day principals desperately seek personnel who are competent to teach in a range of areas. Is there a database of competent people available who can travel to various schools or are we to have the constant battle of looking for people who are able to teach and have competency in languages or other subjects?

What is the position on courses being made available through technology so that people who might not be able to attend courses can achieve qualifications? With our modern technological advances, for which the Minister has direct responsibility, why is there not a system whereby courses could be made available that could make every front room in every house a lecture hall so that people would be able to attain outstanding qualifications?

Mr. Treacy

I hope I remember all the questions. On the building unit, we created a dedicated unit some years ago which has been a major success.

Mr. Kenny

I did not ask if the unit was successful.

Mr. Treacy

The fact that we are looking for £17 million extra to assist it at second level in the delivery of projects shows how competent and successful it is.

Mr. Kenny

My question was can they spend and process it?

Mr. Treacy

They can spend it and process it.

Mr. Kenny

The Chair should direct the Minister to answer the question.

Mr. Treacy

They are spending it faster than they are getting it. Some £17 million more is needed to keep up with their expenditure capacity to deliver the projects. We can be happy that the building unit is doing a good job.

As regards sex offenders, the FÁS workers would be local people and the gardaí would know them. Teachers can come from any area. The Department has addressed this matter over the years. There is liaison between the Department and the schools regarding a list of people who have offended in the past.

Mr. Kenny

Is there a mechanism? People might apply about whom nothing is known.

Mr. Treacy

There is a standing committee involving both external people and internal people in the Department that deals with it.

Mr. Kenny

External and internal?

Mr. Treacy

There are teachers and others on it. My apologies, Deputy, it is an internal committee. If the Taoiseach gave a commitment on sports halls the Deputy may take it that he is committed to the development of sports facilities and that will happen. Obviously, that is a matter for the Minister of State——

Mr. Kenny

That was in February 1999.

Mr. Treacy

It is only a year ago.

Mr. Kenny

Have the areas been defined? Do we know the schools?

Mr. Treacy

Yes. As far as I know, planning has been granted in some cases but not all. I would not be able to comment on them all. However, I am aware of some. I will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Ryan, to look at the issue and respond to the Deputy.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister believes planning permission has been issued in some cases?

Mr. Treacy

Yes.

Mr. Kenny

Does the Minister know any of the cases?

Mr. Treacy

I cannot say off the top of my head. The ombudsman for children is a matter to which the Government is committed. It has given responsibility for this area to the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, who is doing an excellent job. There is liaison between the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Health and Children. There will be linkage in this area. It is an evolving situation. We expect progress on this matter very soon. We have legislation to deal with it.

I was interested in the question on RTE from Deputy Kenny. I am please it has given such a commitment. I am confident the Department will have an input into it. The RTE programmes, particularly in the science area, have been acknowledged and it has won prizes for them. I am confident we will have strong liaison and linkage with it and that the programmes will be relevant, practical and of great benefit to children in the years ahead. I hope it will form part of the new school environment. Adult education will also be catered for.

The Deputy said voluntary secondary schools are short of money.

Mr. Kenny

It is a different method of funding.

Mr. McGrath

There is inequality between those and other types of second level schools in terms of funding.

Mr. Treacy

There was a recent parliamentary question on that issue. Voluntary second level schools have done a very good job.

Ms Shortall

When will the Blackstock report be implemented?

Mr. Treacy

Further consideration is being given to that. We are confident we will remove the inequities taking into account the problems of various schools. Obviously we must look at it on a case by case basis.

Mr. Kenny

My question was, did the Department apply for a special grant to run supervision in voluntary secondary schools, which is the cause of this strike?

Mr. Treacy

I am not aware.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister is not aware of it?

Mr. Treacy

That is not the cause of the strike.

Mr. Kenny

It is partly the cause of it.

Mr. Treacy

No. It is partly a reaction——

Mr. Kenny

Did the Department apply for a special grant to run this?

Mr. Treacy

If we did it would be considered in the context of the revised Estimates and as there is no money here for it——

Mr. Kenny

He is the Minister of State yet he is not sure.

Mr. Treacy

I am quite certain that if we applied, it would be included here as a Supplementary Estimate seeking the permission of this committee to proceed with expenditure. Obviously it did not happen and it is not included. People are imagining that something happened just because people made statements and others reacted to them, which perhaps aggravated the situation.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister of State said these difficulties would be removed.

Mr. Treacy

In so far as we can, case by case, we will look at the inequities and try to eliminate them where that is possible.

On recruitment at second level, we do not have a database but we are developing new management information systems and as a result of that we should be in a position to have additionality that will hopefully encompass databases for teachers with particular skills and specialist areas on whom we could call when required.

Courses are very important. As somebody who is deeply involved with the courses on information technology, I found there was a fear of the unknown among the teachers, but once they got into them, they were delighted and there was a major demand for more courses. We set a target to train 20,000 teachers in the first year but we trained 40,000. We have exceeded all our targets.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister of State missed my point. I am talking about a teacher who wants to qualify at second level. Can that person do a course run by the Department of Education and Science at home?

Mr. Treacy

Is the Deputy talking about distance learning?

Mr. Kenny

It is an advancement of distance learning, which has been run for a long time.

Mr. Treacy

It is not very well developed in Ireland.

Mr. Kenny

Can a teacher in Ballinskelligs do a Department of Education and Science course at home via his or her television? The Minister of State is the Minister for science. Instead of having to travel to Cork or Limerick, can that teacher take that course at home?

Mr. Treacy

She can but it depends on where she pursues it. The open university programme is available to all those people.

Mr. Kenny

Is that in the Minister's Department?

Mr. Treacy

Dublin City University operates that type of course to suit teachers and others, and there are other courses available but it depends on the qualifications teachers aim for and whether they are relevant for qualification and entry into the profession.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister and the Department should concentrate on this area. There is a recruitment crisis. The Department and the education system depends on a highly motivated, competent workforce. Principal teachers in every corner of the country are trying to get people who are deemed to be competent to stand in front of a class. That crisis will have a detrimental effect on our——

Mr. Treacy

When the Deputy uses the word "competent", is he talking about IT?

Mr. Kenny

I am talking about competent to stand in front of any class.

Mr. Treacy

As a teacher?

Mr. Kenny

Why can we not allow teachers to use IT facilities to qualify, train, undertake extra courses and so on? If we take the example of a woman who has three children attending primary school, she cannot travel to Limerick or Cork. She should be able to take these courses at home. That is my point.

Mr. Treacy

Yes, and there is nothing to stop people doing these courses.

Mr. Kenny

There is.

Mr. Treacy

Deputy Kenny wants me to say that the Department would be prepared to have a national programme of which these people could be part.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister is the Minister for science. We are now in a position where every front room in the country can become a lecture hall. We should have the capacity to do that. We are bringing in digital television. RTE will have an educational channel. Everybody should have that facility at their disposal. I know they cannot do all these courses at home and that there will be occasions when they will have to travel for tutorials etc., but these facilities should be available to everybody in their own homes. The Minister is the Minister for science.

Mr. Treacy

That is a wonderful idea and it is very interesting. It is something I hope we will aspire to some day because obviously——

Mr. Kenny

The Minister can do it now.

Mr. Treacy

We are obviously becoming a computer literate society.

Mr. Kenny

Yes.

Mr. Treacy

We have a lot of catching up to do but we have come a long way in a short period of time. I am confident we will make further progress in this area and I pay special tribute to the many teachers who travel to various centres to pursue extra qualifications commensurate with their goal to have a greater opportunity to deliver a better education service to their pupils. That will continue and the Department supports that in certain areas. It cannot support it in other areas but the incentive is always there for people to do that and there is a willingness on behalf of many teachers to do it. As we progress and as more resources become available, that is the goal to which we can aspire.

Mr. McGrath

The question raised by Deputy Kenny has not been adequately answered.

Mr. Treacy

Which one is that?

Mr. McGrath

That is the question in relation to capitation payments to the different levels of second level schools. As the Minister is aware, there are four different types of schools. Some get capitation payments far superior to others and it makes the operation of the schools much easier and covers their costs more adequately. In terms of secretaries and caretakers, this problem arises again. A voluntary secondary school with approximately 350 pupils gets about £7,500 to employ a secretary and about £7,500 or £8,000 to employ a caretaker — perhaps it is the other way round. That is not adequate to employ secretaries and caretakers. These schools need full-time people and I ask the Minister to address that problem.

There is a major difference in the way capitation payments are made to community colleges and schools. There is also a difference in the capitation payments made to second level and primary schools. Primary schools have to pay for oil, heat, electricity and so on, yet there is no relationship in terms of the capitation payments to second and primary levels.

On the question of supervision raised by Deputy Kenny, and ensuring that the strike does not continue, I received a very personal letter this evening from the Presentation De La Salle college in County Carlow as follows:

I have been requested by the Parents Association of Presentation De La Salle College, Bagenalstown, Co. Carlow to write to you to put on record our frustration and concern about the A.S.T.I. Teachers strike and its continuance. We call on you to make our position known and to press the Department of Education and Science to speak to the A.S.T.I. representative immediately and bring this matter to an immediate conclusion as it has been allowed to drag on for some time. The students in this case are the people who are suffering, in particular the Junior Certificate and Leaving Certificate students.

We further feel that the Department of Education and Science is in breach of their mission statement. [That is a very strong statement].

Please bring the above matters to the attention of the Government and the Department to ensure an early settlement.

That letter came from outside my representation area, from a woman called Geraldine Monaghan.

Mr. Treacy

Is that letter from a teacher?

Mr. McGrath

No, it is from a parent.

Mr. Treacy

We are in an industrial relations difficulty and it is not prudent for me to comment on it. Suffice to say that the Government and the Minister for Education and Science do not want the situation to continue. We want dialogue that will resolve it and a positive effort to return to the teaching environment as quickly as possible, taking into account decisions that were taken yesterday, decisions that will be taken tomorrow and opportunities that will be created for us all in the short-term. We hope this matter will be resolved sooner rather than later and I hope that as the new year dawns, this matter will be resolved. That is our wish but it will take a meeting of minds and a positive attitude on all sides. We will do what we can to facilitate that.

Chairman

What about the financing of the schools?

Mr. Treacy

The funding arrangements for the different school types at second level have developed over the years in an ad hoc manner and reflect the different traditions and structures of the voluntary, secondary, comprehensive, community and vocational education sectors. This evolution, by its very nature, has generated funding anomalies and structures that lack uniformity and cohesion. In this regard, the report of the steering group on funding for second level schools represents a comprehensive review of the funding arrangements and is a valuable document in both its analysis and clarity of approach. It is the Minister’s intention that this report will continue to inform policy on school funding. The Minister has emphasised that his priority is the adequacy of funding levels for schools in the second level sector. He has already shown his commitment and determination in that regard by establishing the schools services support fund. The introduction of this fund is a significant issue in the funding of our schools. A school with 500 pupils will now receive additional funding of £20 per pupil or £10,000, with a minimum payment for smaller schools of £4,000 per school, and the fund will channel an additional £4 million to voluntary secondary schools each year.

Mr. Bradford

I have a brief question on the supply of teachers at second level. What is the current position in relation to the Irish examination, the Ceard Teastas Gaeilge, which was a requirement for teaching in VEC schools? Is it still a requirement? A number of young people have contacted me about it. To the best of their knowledge it is not a requirement but they appear to be universally unsuccessful when applying for VEC positions. If it is still a requirement, why is that so? Would it not be better to have a standard system?

Mr. Treacy

The Deputy raises valid points on this issue. I have a personal commitment to the ceard teastas. I come from a Gaeltacht county, was a member of the VEC and have sat on interview boards. It is important that we maintain this facility in Gaeltacht counties. The people we employed were shown to be excellent pioneers in the development of education in the schools to which they were assigned. I can stand over every appointment we made.

Chairman

Will the Minister answer Deputy Bradford's question?

Mr. Treacy

Deputy Kenny put a question mark over the integrity of the appointments. I will not comment on others who sat on the boards after me. Deputy Bradford's point is under review at present and we will respond directly to the Deputy on it.

Mr. Bradford

I appreciate that.

Chairman

Vote 29 relates to third level education. Deputies Kenny and McGrath can ask two questions and Deputy Bradford can ask one.

Mr. Kenny

I wish to ask three questions, Chairman. What is the position with regard to the 11 or 12 outreach centres announced by the Minister some time ago? These were to be additional to the list of decentralised offices being compiled in preparation for the all-Ireland political final whenever it occurs. In other words, if a small town does not get a decentralised office or part of one, it will be allocated an outreach centre. We have not heard anything of note about them, however, in the past couple of months. Can these towns be identified?

The State is currently attempting to deal with major issues of retention at third level. There is a high incidence of low completion rates in some cases. This arises because students now perceive higher education as something that does not necessarily have to be done on a full-time basis but can be done part time in conjunction with making money. It would be desirable, therefore, if the current model of full-time education could be replaced with a model that quantified the amount of learning completed on an annual basis and grant-aided it accordingly. A national certificate programme, for example, consists of 120 credits for study undertaken over two years. Why not allow a student to undertake this over four years on a reduced grant or allow a student to complete it in 18 months? Such a shift could deal with low retention rates and non-completion of courses.

Does the Minister foresee an occasion where the institutes of technology might move to the remit of the Higher Education Authority instead of the Department of Education and Science? The budgetary requirements for institutes of technology are sent to the Department in good time but it was May 2000 before the Department started to discuss the budgets for 2000 with some of them. This is no way to run a third level sector. These budgets should be assessed and approved before the year end and the institutes should be given their money at the start of the year to get on with their business. Why must five months elapse before the Department can sit down with the representatives and directors of institutes of technology to discuss the budget for that same year?

Mr. McGrath

My questions relate to higher education grant aid and the mess it causes throughout the country. Last week 1,500 students had not yet been paid the first part of their grant aid for higher education. The local authorities had not paid them, and that is unacceptable. While the Minister and I might be able to keep our children afloat for that amount of time, there are many families who have to take out loans to do so. It is not fair that the grants have not yet been paid. This must be examined again. There should be one central agency for this in each county. Expertise can be built up locally but local contact and local representatives should be involved because the local representatives are answerable to the people. A centralised agency in each county would yield greater efficiency.

My second question relates to the administration costs associated with processing higher education grants. Part of the cost is paid to the vocational education committees for processing their higher education grants but nothing is paid to the local authorities for processing their grants. The former Minister, Niamh Bhreathnach, paid the local authorities for processing higher education grants in 1996. Does the Minister not think that this cost should be borne centrally and paid to the local authorities?

The current level of the grant is £1,700. This has not kept pace with increases in the cost of accommodation and so forth. It requires radical evaluation.

Mr. Bradford

I put down a number of parliamentary questions earlier this year on behalf of the staff in the higher education unit in Cork County Council requesting that progress be made in having the application forms for third level grants available earlier. We were advised that they would be available early in 2000 but it was the summer before they became available.

The application forms should be approved by the Department and published and distributed to the local authorities earlier. That is part of the reason the students to whom Deputy McGrath referred are not in receipt of their grants. The application forms are not available early enough so they are not lodged until July and August. There is no reason the application forms should not be available in January or February. The changes in a given year are minimal. I pursued this matter through parliamentary questions and each time I was advised that they would be available in the following week, but that did not happen. Will the Minister try to ensure that the grant forms for 2001 will be available in February 2001?

Mr. McGrath

The Minister was a member of a local authority and he will be aware that the local authority must approve the scheme before it can be implemented. Getting it on the agenda for the local authority can also cause delay. Deputy Bradford's comments are spot on. The forms should be available by Easter at the latest.

Chairman

The Minister has three minutes.

Mr. Kenny

With regard to third level grants for students to study in England or Scotland, the punt is seriously depressed against sterling and students suffer a huge loss as a result. Is the Minister prepared to make up that loss?

Mr. Treacy

Decentralisation is something I could discuss for many hours. My party is committed to it and initiated the policy. I was the Minister who first implemented it and the policy will continue. Decisions have not been taken on the outreach programme and towns have not been named. That is ongoing at present. On major issues of retention, we are looking at the modularisation situation and we will continue to make progress as quickly as possible.

I agree with what the Deputies said about the institutes of technology. They have done a great job and they have made a huge contribution to our skills base. It is important that they are given proper consideration. I agree it should not take five months to get their money. The Deputy must understand we have a team of specialised people who deal with all the institutes. While they cannot meet each one immediately, they will eventually meet them all. The Cromien report made certain recommendations. That is under active consideration and we hope to make decisions on it as quickly as possible.

Mr. Kenny

If the Minister agrees with what I said, does that mean he sees a time when the institutes of technology will go to the HEA?

Mr. Treacy

It is under consideration at present.

Mr. Kenny

Does the Minister agree with that?

Mr. Treacy

I agree with equalisation, synchronisation and delivery on an equitable basis to all the third level institutes. As far as I am concerned, each of them, whether it is a university or an institute of technology, does an outstanding job.

Mr. Kenny

Does the Minister agree they should move to the HEA? He mentioned synchronisation.

Mr. Treacy

I agree. As far as I am concerned, there should not be two different bodies dealing with third level institutes. There should only be one body, although I am not sure what body that should be.

I agree with Deputy McGrath who made an important point about higher education — Deputy Bradford referred to it as well. Administrative costs should be borne centrally. They should both be treated the same and there should be singularisation in terms of local delivery. We should not have different bodies.

As regards the future administration of the schemes, Department officials have been engaged with officials of the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs about possible options. Terms of reference for a detailed review of the administration of the schemes are currently being finalised between the two Departments.

As regards rent costs and recognition of the difficulties encountered by students and following consultation with third level colleges, the Government introduced special tax incentives to encourage the provision of student rented residential accommodation in the Finance Act, 1999. A survey by the Department of the Environment and Local Government in September of that year to gauge the effect of the tax incentives indicated that 7,500 bed spaces were in various stages of planning specifically for students at that time. I presume that has more than doubled by now.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister is talking about 15,000.

Mr. Treacy

I hope so. I do not have exact figures so the Deputy should not tie me to it. However, I am optimistic that the buoyant economy and the incentives we have created have led to further investment in new infrastructure and greater facilities to meet the demand caused by the increase in our educational population.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister of State is not speaking to a novice.

Mr. Treacy

As Deputies McGrath and Bradford said, we must focus on the synchronisation and quicker delivery of application forms and on quicker decisions. We are actively engaged in doing that at present. I am optimistic we will be able to improve that considerably in the year ahead.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister of State should not centralise it completely.

Chairman

That completes the time for discussion on Vote 29. I ask the Minister of State to conclude.

Mr. Treacy

This committee is a useful forum to reflect on educational policy, priorities and the allocation of resources. The Estimates for 2000 were the first Estimates to be framed in the context of the national development plan between now and 2006. The plan sets out the Government's ambitious and coherent development strategy, supported by a multi-annual investment commitment in the key areas of infrastructural development, the production sector, the promotion of social inclusion and educational training. It is inevitable that in a project of such magnitude there are variations and adjustments. These Supplementary Estimates must be viewed in that context.

I thank the Cathaoirleach, the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the members of this committee for their strong commitment to education and science. We welcome this engagement and collaboration. I assure the committee we will take on board the many requests made and we will respond to you, both individually and collectively, as quickly as possible.

Mr. Kenny

This is a useful committee. I want to avail of the services of the committee so we can continue to ask the Minister and the Minister of State questions about the issues affecting education now and in the future. I would not describe it as "collaboration", which has a particular connotation in this country. I would like to think we question things in the best interest of the students and the education system. We recognise these Supplementary Estimates are important. We will continue to raise the bar in the interests of everyone. I thank the Minister of State for attending today.

Mr. Treacy

It was a great honour.

Chairman

It was interesting to watch the efforts being made by everyone to get information. I thought the officials were worried about what might or might not be said.