Select Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 23 Mar 2021

Vote 45 — Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Revised)

Chairman

Even though this is a virtual meeting, I remind members and officials to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when in silent mode. The meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimates for Vote 26 - Education, and Vote 45 - Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, which were referred to this committee by Dáil Éireann.

Members are reminded of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the precincts of the Parliament, namely, Leinster House or the Convention Centre Dublin, in order to participate in today's meeting. I will not permit any member to participate if he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts of the Parliament will be asked to leave the meeting. When I call on members to contribute, could they confirm they are in the precincts of either Leinster House or the convention centre?

I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Madigan, and their officials. I thank them for the briefing documents provided. I invite the Minister to make an opening statement. Members may ask general questions on Vote 26. They will have four minutes per slot, which is to allow for a question and the response of the Minister or Minister of State. When asking a question, members should indicate to whom they are addressing it to.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I thank the members for the opportunity to speak to them today and for the committee's consideration of my Department's Revised Estimate. I am accompanied by the Minister of State, who has responsibility for special education, and by officials from my Department. I am conscious that I have very limited time in which to deliver my opening statement so I will just give a brief overview of the Revised Estimates for my Department for 2021.

These Revised Estimates set out the approved allocations for the Department, including funding for all of the services normally provided or supported by it. They also include substantial additional funding to meet costs associated with the reopening of schools and sustaining teaching and learning as part of the Covid-19 response covering the period to the end of the current school year. The Revised Estimates also reflect the completion of the transfer of functions from the Department of Education to the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the transfer into my Department of funding from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in respect of certain education functions being performed by Tusla.

The Revised Estimate for Vote 26 provides for a net allocation of €8.644 billion, representing a gross allocation of €8.961 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of some €300 million. This represents an increase in gross expenditure of some €250 million, or 3%, over the 2020 allocation. I made the point previously to the committee that a significant proportion of the funding allocated to Vote 26 will be expended on gross pay and pensions, with sums amounting to over €7 billion included in the Vote for these purposes. This represents some 80% of the expenditure allocation. Some 90,600 public servants and 43,200 public service pensioners are paid out of these funds. Other significant expenditure areas include capital infrastructure, school transport, capitation grants to schools and grants to other organisations and agencies.

Budget 2021 included a number of measures relevant to the education system. It included additional funding to enable the total number of non-Covid-related teaching posts to rise by 1,065 by the end of this year. Of these posts, a net 268 will derive from forecast demographics. Four hundred and three additional teachers will be working with children with special needs and there will be 394 new teaching posts created at primary level to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio and class sizes. This includes a new measure to assist schools to retain teachers while dealing with Covid-19 requirements.

The budget also included initiatives in the area of social inclusion, with additional funding being provided to reduce by one point the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, senior schools urban band-1 staffing schedule, and an additional €2 million for Gaeltacht placement grants and €1 million for the continued implementation of the Gaeltacht education policy. An additional €3.5 million has been provided to continue investment in the Creative Ireland and Music Generation programmes.

Special education continues to be a priority. Almost 1,000 additional special needs assistant, SNA, posts will be allocated, bringing the total number of SNAs in our schools to over 18,000 in 2021. This will support the rolling out of the new school inclusion model, including a new allocation methodology for mainstream schools in the 2021 school year, which will ensure students with additional needs get the right supports at the right time, as well as supporting the new special needs class places.

An additional 145 special education teacher posts will be provided for while 235 new teachers will be recruited to work in special classes in our schools, with another 23 teachers hired for special schools. This investment in additional teaching posts will ensure that more than 1,200 new places in special classes will be provided.

The 2021 investment includes a capital allocation for new and more energy-efficient school buildings, with a €740 million budget for 2021 under Project Ireland 2040. This funding will sustain the rolling out of projects, including some 140 projects under the large-scale and additional accommodation schemes whose construction activity is due to commence before July 2021. These projects will add significant additional capacity to the school system to manage in the Covid environment and to cater for increased demographics.

I will conclude with a few words on Covid. The Government's roadmap for the full reopening of schools, approved in July 2020, included a significant package of funding to sustain school reopening, for the replacement of teachers and non-teaching staff unable to attend for work due to Covid-19, additional release days for principals and deputy principals, and enhanced cleaning regimes, personal protective equipment, PPE, and well-being supports. The total amount allocated for the 2020-2021 school year is €639 million. Of that, €331 million related to 2020 and comprised a capital allocation of €180 million and €151 million in current funding. The balance of that allocation, amounting to some €308 million, is included in these Estimates. This funding is, as before, available to meet substitution and supervision, cleaning, sanitiser, PPE and school transport costs. No Covid-related capital allocation has been included in these Estimates. There was very significant Covid-related capital expenditure in 2020, much of it brought forward. As with other Covid-19 related spending, funding for the 2021-2022 school year will be reviewed in line with the latest public health advice available and previous Covid-19 costs. In this regard, a central contingency reserve was allocated in the 2021 budget by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, which includes funds specifically earmarked for schools for the remainder of 2021, that is, for the period from August to December.

The committee will appreciate that the position on Covid remains fluid. The education sector is in the process of reopening and I expect that all schools will be open again on 5 April. The leaving certificate examinations will take place in June and a system of accredited grades will be available. A very significant allocation of funding has been made in these Estimates to sustain reopening and to ensure the welfare of staff and students. I trust that this brief overview has been of assistance to the committee. I am happy to discuss these issues in more detail. I commend the Revised Estimate for 2021 to the committee.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. The first questioner is Deputy Conway-Walsh, who will be followed by Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister. I confirm that I am in Leinster House.

The Revised Estimate states that €308 million, or an increase of €76 million for the remainder of the academic year, as been allocated. The €332 million that was allocated before the devastating third wave, which hit us in late December and early January and continues today, was allocated before we knew how slowly the vaccine would be rolled out. Is the additional funding enough? Is it enough based on the fact that the main strain of Covid with which patients present is the one from south-east England? Just before Christmas, it spread very rapidly through the school system there.

Is what we have here adequate to ensure that schools are safe and that all post-primary classes will be back on 12 April? How much additional funding will be available for September? What does this money enable schools to do that they could not do in September to address the new variant of Covid?

Deputy Norma Foley

More than €639 million was made available for the entire school year, €331 million in 2020 and €308 million for 2021. On new mitigation measures or the processes for this part of the year, all the measures currently in place, and which we have been advised to put in place, have been overseen by public health. A stringent review of the mitigation measures in place was undertaken prior to the phased reopening of the schools, whether it was the special schools, primary schools or fifth and sixth years and moving forward for the-----

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

If I might ask the Minister, I am trying to get at the outputs and outcomes of the investment. How many outbreaks have there been in schools since the beginning of 2021 or since the schools reopened?

Deputy Norma Foley

The outbreaks, as determined by public health, have been at a very low level. Close contact testing results have had a positivity rate of 2.4%, compared with the rate in the wider community which is in excess of 10%. Professor Philip Nolan has reported an increase among young people but we have not seen that detection or transmissibility within our school environments. That was confirmed as late as yesterday. That speaks to the very strong mitigation measures in place in our schools and, in particular, the work being done on the ground by school staff and the students themselves who are very much abiding by the measures that have been put in place. A strong body of work continues in our schools in that respect.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

Basically, the Minister is saying the numbers are rising in the cohort of children who are going to school but they are not being infected within the school system. How do we know that for sure? It seems a coincidence that it happened after children went back to school. Do we know for sure that children are not being infected within the school environment? How can we tell?

Deputy Norma Foley

The judgment on that must be left to the experts and it is the experts who are attesting to that, namely, public health. These are not statistics or figures that I am producing. They are being produced by the experts on the ground. Public health takes a rigorous approach when it is called into schools. We also have enhanced school teams. Public health has confirmed that it has extended the level of testing in schools. The adjudication of those statistics is made by public health and no one else. That is right and proper given that we said from the outset that we would be led by public health on the measures that were required in the schools and what we would do to deal with Covid-19.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I confirm that I am on site in my office. I welcome the Minister and Minister of State. A review of school transport is under way. CIÉ and Bus Éireann recently opened a portal for the September intake. Is the review likely to be completed in time for September or is it likely to drag on a little?

Deputy Norma Foley

That committee has begun its work. My intention is that it will take a two-pronged approach, whereby there will be an interim report in the short term following by the final report. I hope and expect the interim report will be available in advance of the return to school in September. That is my objective.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Arising from that, more than 15,000 students with special needs have special arrangements for school transport. Will the review cover those students? Will it be a review of the whole education sector, including special education, or will it focus only on mainstream secondary schools?

Deputy Norma Foley

The review is of the school transport system as provided for all.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Very good. The capitation grant is always a bone of contention, as the distinction made between primary and secondary schools. Are there plans to review current capitation rates at both primary and secondary level? I have tabled parliamentary questions asking why there is a distinction.

Deputy Norma Foley

There has been an increase in capitation, albeit a steady and small one, over the last two budgets. My intention is to keep moving in that direction. The difference between primary and secondary education is largely due to the size of buildings, specialist rooms and so on. There is a difference in scale between the two but I intend to continue the increase in capitation as far as possible within the confines of the budget.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I noticed in the list of new builds in Vote 26 and also the breakdown of commitments for special classrooms that more special classrooms are being designated than before and the number of new builds has also increased, which is very welcome. I do not have the figures to hand but last year approximately 70 or 80 units valued in excess of the €1 million threshold were delivered. Does the Minister have a breakdown showing the number of mainstream schools compared with special needs schools?

Deputy Norma Foley

I do not have one to hand but I have no difficulty in making the information available to the Deputy. I will revert to him on the matter.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

My last question is on the number of students with direct access to National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS. The number of children who accessed NEPS services through schools decreased from 8,561 in 2018, which was pre-Covid, to 7,392 in 2019. What was the reason for this decline? What are the figures for 2020? In the event that the trend continued in 2020 and the number of students with access to NEPS services declined, what plans are in place to meet the shortfall in 2021?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is provision in the budget for an additional 17 NEPS psychologist posts. There is also provision for 120 guidance counsellors to be made available in schools. Having worked in schools, I am very conscious of the importance of all kinds of well-being supports within schools, specifically guidance counsellors and NEPS psychologists, but also the wider context of well-being in school. I acknowledge that at its very core this is a key principle in all our schools, particularly during Covid. For this reason, there was a determined effort in the budget to increase the number of guidance counsellor and NEPS psychologist posts.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Most of my questions concern detail and the lack of thereof.

I know the Parliamentary Budget Office has previously recommended that we should have a better breakdown into individual programmes. Analysing the specific headings, I find it difficult to get at the detail, which in turn makes it difficult for me to do my job of scrutinising the figures before us. I ask the Minister to drill down into some of them.

The first two are almost two sides of the same coin relating to grants. Miscellaneous grants and services have dropped by 60% in this budget and then A11 relating to grants to educational bodies has increased by 79%. While I am guessing we are seeing a drop in individual grants to schools, more administrative grants are being made available to educational bodies. I ask the Minister to drill down into that in more detail to help me understand those figures better.

Deputy Norma Foley

To be fair, I think there is a very strong element of transparency in the information that is provided. I note that when specific issues were raised, the Department clearly made additional information available this year. For example, as the committee will be aware, there have been several reforms in the overall budgetary framework in recent years to provide greater transparency, including whole-year engagement between Departments and Oireachtas committees like this one. The reforms have included, for example, the introduction of performance and equality budgeting. It has included mid-term expenditure reviews and reports. It has included independent scrutiny by the Parliamentary Budget Office, including PBO papers, the public service performance report and spending review papers. Considerable effort has been made to make the information more user-friendly and more transparent, not just for the benefit of the committees but for the benefit of all concerned.

Regarding reductions this year, at the end of 2020, moneys that were due to be expended in 2021 were made available to schools to spend at the end of 2020. This included additional minor works grants and the digital access grants. Some €50 million that was due to be spent later in 2021 was made available at the end of 2020. That accounts for any discrepancy. There is no reduction; it is just that the money was given towards the end of 2020 to allow schools make the necessary provision for any building works that needed to be carried out or make improvements to digital access. For example, many schools chose to purchase equipment and provide it to children who were in need of it. The work on the purchase of platforms had previously been done. The decision was taken to bring money from 2021 into 2020 to afford schools the opportunity to better manage the needs of the schools, particularly in the atmosphere that pertained during the Covid pandemic.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I wish to follow up on the previous comments on school transport. We all understand the reasons for the 31% increase in line with the health restrictions that pertain. However, it is a significant amount of money. Does Bus Éireann have a mechanism for feeding back to us to allow us to ensure value for money for the taxpayer? Does Bus Éireann provide us with information on how the needs of individual children are answered by the increased budget that was put in place?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is extensive ongoing engagement between Bus Éireann and my officials. The Deputy is quite correct in saying that substantial additional funding was made available this year, much of it on the back of the requirement for school buses to operate at 50% capacity. For a variety of reasons, it is very important for that accountability between the Department and Bus Éireann to continue. Notwithstanding the additional funding for increased numbers, most of the additional funding related to the 50% measure.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I welcome the Ministers. I have two specific questions. One relates to the funding that has been put aside or prioritised to ensure children can catch up and not just that they can return to school. In addition to making adjustments to schools and providing more personal protective equipment, PPE, or hand sanitiser, they need to be able to ensure children can regain what they lost. What funding is available in that regard? I have previously spoken to the Minister about the £1 billion catch-up fund for children in the UK. There do not appear to be specific measures in place for children, especially those from a disadvantaged background, to analyse and then to ensure they can repair some of the damage caused by not being in school, notwithstanding that they were being taught or that efforts were made to teach them as best we could.

My second question relates to demographic pressures. In my constituency many parents cannot find a place for their child at second level. This may be more of a policy measure than a financial one. What kind of funding mechanisms does the Department have to ensure areas of the country undergoing demographic pressures can have increased access to second level schools?

I have a further question on face coverings for oral exams, but that may be a discussion for a different time. Perhaps the Minister could communicate with me separately on that. I ask her to respond on the catch-up fund for children and on investments to ensure the pressures as a result of demographic changes can be eased to allow for greater access to second level places.

Deputy Norma Foley

On the catch-up fund and funding being made available to schools, the Deputy rightly made reference to disadvantaged children. Some €150 million a year is allocated to our DEIS schools. As I have said, in excess of €639 million has been expended on schools' reopening. We are working on an extended or enhanced summer provision programme which will help in compensating for a loss of in-person teaching and learning experiences. The Deputy will be aware the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has made available a €2.1 billion contingency fund for Covid-19. The Department of Education is a named Department in that respect. Obviously, we will be looking to access funding from there.

We have recently announced measures to extend the school completion programme. We are working on the provision of the extended summer programme.

The Deputy spoke about the demographic issues in his own area in north Dublin and he has raised this with me previously. I will give it some context. There are 314 school planning areas which use the geographical information system containing data compiled from a variety of sources. Conscious that major new residential developments, including some in the Deputy's own area, can add to pressure within an area, the Department now also liaises with local authorities.

I am cognisant that specific issues in an area may arise for a variety of reasons, including duplication of applications and parents being particular about the school they want to choose.

There may be an external draw where pupils are coming from outside a local area. Specifically, however, the Department is aware of the issues in the Deputy's own area, which he has raised with me. We are conscious that we are currently working with the patrons and the schools to address any issues in that specific area and that we have planning exemptions which can be used to provide for any additional temporary accommodation on school sites. We now also have a modular accommodation framework in place to shorten the procurement timeline. The Department is satisfied, specifically with regard to that particular area, that requirements for September 2021 and beyond can be met. It is an area of particular concern to us, in that we know areas are growing. We have mechanisms in place where we are identifying future growth spurts.

Chairman

I will ask the Minister to conclude. The next speaker is Deputy Nolan, followed by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Deputy Carol Nolan

I have two questions. Our report recommends that the provision of hot meals to vulnerable students should be expanded to cover periods of school closures and holidays, and that a hot meals programme should be rolled out nationally to all schools on a phased basis. For those children in communities at risk of disadvantage and social exclusion the problems will go much further, extending even to difficulties accessing basic nutrition during the school week. It is an area on which we need to work hard to protect and improve the situation. I acknowledge that the Government has made some progress in terms of rolling out and expanding the school meals programme that is already in place but we must avoid losing focus in this important area. What other actions are planned to make sure we improve this area and improve the outcomes for children who are disadvantaged with regard to the school meals?

My next question refers to our report's finding that primary schools receive significantly less funding than secondary schools. There is also a specific issue regarding the number of school management posts. We were of the view as a committee that there is now a need for a review of the short-term funding needs of schools. A more fundamental review of funding, however, also needs to be carried out in order that the requisite school management is in place to provide quality leadership for the whole school community. What is the Minister's view on that issue? How does she expect to resolve this matter? Does she feel a review is necessary with regard to this ongoing problem in terms of the shortfall in funding for primary schools, but also in terms of school management posts, particularly in post-primary schools?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. She referenced the hot meal programme. I absolutely agree with her that it is a hugely important programme within our schools. It is funded through the Department of Social Protection and the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has responsibility for that programme. This obviously is done in co-operation with my Department but the funding actually comes from elsewhere. I recognise absolutely its importance on the ground, particularly, as the Deputy referenced, for children who might have particular disadvantages. It has and continues to run successfully. A further extension of the budget was provided this year from the Department of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, in order that the hot meal programme could be extended. I acknowledge how important that is within the schools. Obviously, we will continue to seek the largest possible roll-out of that initiative. It is of immense benefit.

Regarding the funding for primary schools, again, I will point out the enormous amounts of money in terms of grants and supports for schools this year. Not least, for example, in the primary school sector, where there has been a considerable roll-out of minor works grants. I wish to acknowledge the tremendous manner in which all schools, and as the Deputy referenced in this instance, primary schools, utilised that funding to reimagine, add additionality to and make spaces available within schools and do the necessary work. I accept that the money was timely for many primary schools, even outside of a Covid-19 atmosphere. I am committed to schemes of that nature, including the emergency work, summer work and minor work schemes continuing into the future to support works that are needed on the ground.

On comparability with primary and secondary level, which was raised previously by Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan, we are really speaking about two very different experiences in terms of sizes of buildings, types of rooms and so forth. There is not, therefore, a specific comparability. I want to make it clear, however, that there has been a significant increase in funding this year for the primary school sector going forward. There has been significant additionality even in terms of initiatives that have been brought in, whether it is the substitution panels being made available to schools or the additional days for teaching principals being made available this year. All of these are to the necessary benefit of schools and the work of principals and staff on the ground. It is my intention to ensure that we support those initiatives to the very best of our capacity going forward, within budgetary constraints, to ensure services that need to be provided, both from a structural and a service point of view in primary schools, will continue to be well-supported financially .

Chairman

I thank the Minister. The next speaker is Deputy Jim O'Callaghan. He will be followed by Deputy Conway-Walsh, who is taking Deputy Ó Laoghaire's slot.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister for appearing before the committee. I welcome the Estimates she has put before us. First, I commend her and the other Ministers on getting schools almost fully open again. It has made a huge difference to children that all national schools are now back. Only one third of secondary schools have returned but that has still made a big difference. Hopefully, we will ensure that all children in secondary schools get back after the Easter break.

While I do not ask the Minister to comment on this, if she gets an opportunity, she might look at some of the recent reports that have come out. One such report published in the British Medical Journal at the end of February spoke about the damage that school closures were having on children and how the science did not support the closure of schools. UNICEF also put out a report in early March which referred to the closure of schools throughout the world as a tragedy for the future of humankind. I am not looking for comments on this, I just wanted to make that point.

On the Estimates, I will ask the Minister a couple of questions about autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classrooms. Obviously, the Department has granted permission for a number of builds. I very much welcome that. To what extent, however, does the Department insist that when new builds are taking place, we ensure ASD classrooms are provided within those new structures? Is this something that is only done on an individual basis?

Deputy Norma Foley

It has been determined that all new builds will have specific provision for special classes in the future.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

That is great. I will also refer to my constituency, about which I have spoken to the Minister previously and of which she is aware. It is an unusual incidence that in Dublin 2, Dublin 4, Dublin 6 and Dublin 6W, there is an extraordinarily low level of ASD classrooms within national schools in that area, particularly in Dublin 4, Dublin 6 and Dublin 6W. I previously raised this with the Ministers of State, Deputies Madigan and Rabbitte. I acknowledge the Department conducted an audit of south Dublin previously. Unfortunately, however, south Dublin is a much broader area than those of Dublin 4, Dublin 6 and Dublin 6W. Could the Department of Education look at that for the purpose of seeing what steps can be taken in the short term to ensure there are ASD classes? There is a significant shortage of them at present.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

If the Minister wishes, I am happy to take that question. I advise the Deputy that the 200 school buildings will deliver 111 special educational needs rooms and 145 of those are going into construction. There will be a total of 247 new special educational needs rooms delivered between now and the halfway point of 2021.

On the Deputy’s specific question relating to his constituency and the areas within it, he will be aware that we triggered the section 37A mechanism to try to compel schools where we cannot consent to open special educational needs classes. There are special class places confirmed and there is the potential for another 66 before September of this year. There is a commitment to that from the majority of these schools. Only ten stated they could not provide them and many of those have exceptional reasons for doing so in that they do not have the capacity or the room. The Deputy can appreciate that in high density areas it is quite difficult for schools to expand. We will be using all mechanisms open to us, as will the National Council for Special Education, to ensure we have enough special educational needs classes for everybody.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister of State for her response. I along with other TDs in the constituency visited the Star of the Sea school in Sandymount recently. We also visited Ringsend boys' and girls' national schools. They are both committed to doing this but need the support of the Department to ensure funding is available for the appropriate construction of rooms. I know, in particular, Ringsend boys’ and girls' national schools have the facilities but they need to ensure money is provided for the construction of ASD rooms. They have been in contact with the Minister of State’s Department. That needs to be prioritised. I thank the Minister of State for her answer. I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

The next speaker is Deputy Conway Walsh, who is taking Deputy Ó Laoghaoire's place, and she has four minutes.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I have a question from Deputy Ó Laoghaire for the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, relating to special education advocacy groups about staff working in special schools. They all say the progressing disability model, particularly the deployment of therapists out of special schools, is a bad idea, that it will not work, that it is unsuitable for children in special schools with complex needs and that children will lose out. Why is that going ahead?

Deputy Josepha Madigan

To reply to Deputy Ó Laoghaire and the Deputy, the roll-out of the progressing disability strategy is a policy of the HSE and the Department of Health. Obviously, as Minister with responsibility for special education, I am following this very closely due to the impact it has on special education and on the special schools the Deputy mentioned. The transfer of therapy supports out of schools into the community has caused significant concerns, as the Deputy mentioned among schools and families, particularly when speech and language and occupational therapists have been redeployed by the HSE to priority staff for Covid-19 work. I have met representatives of schools and parents who have expressed these concerns. While it does not come under my remit I have written to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, about it to highlight these concerns and to ask that the roll-out be reviewed also. It has been a particularly difficult year for special education and families and staff who do not want any of these disruptions. I have asked Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, to account for this.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

The Minister of State might keep us updated on that. Of the 1,423 new staff that were to be hired in the special needs education sector, how many of those have been hired as we speak?

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I do not know the exact number. Obviously, the budget provided for extra teachers. As to whether all of them have been employed, we can come back to the Deputy on that.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

If the Minister of State could update the committee on that on an ongoing basis it would be useful so that we could see where the money is going.

We discussed transport earlier. Will the Minister, Deputy Foley, indicate if every child who needs it will get a seat on the school bus this year?

The allocation under subhead A.11 covering grants to the education bodies working in the primary and post-primary sectors is due to increase by 79% to €155 million. What are the reasons for the large increase for the administration and running cost of these education bodies? I will give the Minister time to answer those questions.

Deputy Norma Foley

On the transport issue, as I have said, it is not without its difficulties and issues, hence we are involved in an entire review of the transport system. As I outlined, it my intention that an interim report would be published prior to the return to school in September. It is our intention that, as far as possible, children who are eligible, and who have paid on time and met the criteria, as has always been the case, will be provided with a place, but it is necessary also to streamline the provision of the service. I recognise there are individual cases. The Deputy and her colleagues have highlighted to me many of the individual cases where families or individuals have fallen or will fall through the net in accessing a school transport place. It is for those reasons we are keen to complete this report and to make provision for school transport as accessible and open to everybody as possible as we go forward.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

Minister-----

Chairman

I must interrupt the Minister. I advise Deputy Conway-Walsh there are five minutes remaining and I want to take my speaking slot as we missed a Fine Gael slot. Deputy Farrell did not take up his speaking slot and I did not take his speaking time. Deputy Conway-Walsh has got in twice. I want to ask a few questions in the five minutes remaining. I apologise for cutting across the Minister and the Deputy.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

That is okay.

Chairman

It is not clear how the digital funding is apportioned within schools. There does not seems to be a way of measuring how it is utilised in individual schools. Recommendation 5 of the report on the Impact of Covid-19 on Primary and Secondary Education states there should be a national online learning programme that guarantees all students have access to a digital device and broadband. Do the Minister agree there needs to be a very clear plan and system of measurement to ensure funding is used to ensure every student has a digital device and access to broadband? We have seen the need for that in recent months during Covid-19. Many witnesses ranging from those representing teacher unions to student unions to parent councils who have appeared before the committee have raised that issue. The Minister might reply to that question.

Deputy Norma Foley

In the first instance, I want to state there is a strong digital strategy within the Department with a clear focus on enhancing teaching, learning and investment. In excess of €210 million has been made available to promote digital learning within our schools. The purpose of that funding is to ensure there are platforms available across our schools but, equally, as the Chairman has specifically referenced, to ensure the availability of digital devices. We are very cognisant of that in the Covid-19 atmosphere. More than €100 million was paid out last year, with the last €50 million of that paid out in December to facilitate schools to purchase the equipment and then - and I have seen this operate on the ground - the equipment is loaned to individual students, families or whomever as the case might arise. I am very conscious that no two schools will have the same needs or demands placed upon them in terms of the digital devices the Chairman specifically raised. Therefore, there is an acknowledgement within the Department that every school must meet its own demands and pressures. It is for that reason there has been no shortage of funding and that there has been a willingness from the Department’s point of view to make all necessary funding available. Reference was made earlier to differences in budgets as we go forward. One of the reasons for the differences, from a capital point of view, is that money was made available in December to ensure that. There will always be room for-----

Chairman

-----improvement.

Deputy Norma Foley

-----analysis and review of how systems have worked.

There was a very strong commitment from the Department to resource the purchase of any equipment needed, platforms and all of that. There will be a need now to review that to see how it has worked.

Chairman

On the upcoming budget, I remind the Minister of an issue I raised with her and her officials previously concerning the deputy principal positions in larger primary schools. I ask her to keep that on her radar. What interaction has the Minister had with the teacher associations since schools reopened in recent weeks? Separately, what interaction have her officials had with the teacher representative associations in recent weeks?

Deputy Norma Foley

To clarify, there is consistent and ongoing engagement with all of the partners in education. I have a number of meetings scheduled this week with them but it is very much an ongoing engagement. The Department values the whole partnership approach. I want to be magnanimous in acknowledging the engagement across the board, not only by the teaching unions and managerial bodies but also the students and parent voices, throughout last summer, from September until December and through to the reopening of schools and that continues. Coming from an education background, this has been an experience of best practice in which we have had strong partnership. Anything that issues from the Department in terms of guidance or whatever will always be the result of consultation and discussion with the partners in education. That approach has worked well for us up to this point and it is most certainly my determination that it will be the process we will continue to employ.

Chairman

Deputy Conway-Walsh asked the Minister about the number of students in schools who were affected by Covid-19. She may not have the figure but how many schools, primary, post-primary and special schools, have been affected by outbreaks of Covid-19 since schools reopened in recent weeks? I am asking for the number of schools rather than the number of students. If the Minister does not have that figure, she can revert to me.

Deputy Norma Foley

I will revert to the Chairman on the specific number but we are very clear that there has been engagement, where required, with public health. The enhanced school teams have engaged with the process. That is confirmed by public health and experts on NPHET. An outbreak refers to two cases. Where outbreaks have been identified, it has been confirmed that the transmissibility and detection within schools is very low and point more to community rather than school transmission. They highlight the strong mitigation measures being practised and upheld by school communities - staff, pupils and everybody else in schools.

Chairman

If the Minister were to give a message to parents on guaranteeing that schools will remain open, what would that message be? This is a serious issue in the community. Transmission is not occurring in schools but in the community. There is a responsibility on every citizen of the State and parents of children going to school to make sure schools are a safe environment for their students. All of us have anecdotal evidence of birthday parties, other celebrations and this, that and the other taking place. I believe the virus has been transferred into the school community as a result of what has been happening in homes. As we approach the Easter break, every parent and child and everybody involved in education, including the Minister and Government, wants to see schools remain open. What message would the Minister give to parents?

Deputy Norma Foley

In the first instance, I acknowledge that an enormous body of work has been undertaken by all of society to ensure that our schools, in the midst of level 5 and a lockdown which pertains to virtually all of society at this point, reopened on a cautious and phased basis. An enormous debt of gratitude is owed to all of society for supporting and facilitating that by doing what we all need to do, namely, keep our distance, wear a mask, reduce our social contacts and so on. There continues to be a responsibility on all of us to do that and to be conscious, as parents and guardians, that we are not congregating outside schools. The deputy chief medical officer has stated there should not be any play dates and we should be vigilant. It is very important that our schools remain open and that the phased reopening of schools continues. To be fair to parents, guardians, families and wider society, I acknowledge the enormous work they have done up to this point. I ask people to continue to do that work so that, as we approach the Easter break and look to the resumption of all our schools after that, we hold steady and do what needs to be done to ensure we will have a reopening after Easter. I say that in full cognisance of the huge debt of gratitude we owe to everyone for the work that has been done thus far.

Chairman

I do not want an answer but I repeat what Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin said. There are students who are in a difficult situation when they return to school. Regardless of their background, there are students who are suffering. I ask the Minister and her officials to be conscious of that.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, for their constructive engagement.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

We will suspend briefly to allow the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris, the Minister of State in his Department, Deputy Niall Collins, and their officials to joint the meeting remotely.

Sitting suspended at 1.27 p.m. and resumed at 1.32 p.m.

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris. I also welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for skills and further education, Deputy Niall Collins, and the officials. I thank them for the briefing documents they provided to the committee prior to the meeting. I will now ask the Minister, Deputy Harris, to make his opening statement and members can ask general questions on Vote 45. Members will have four minute slots, beginning with Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh, for questions and the Minister's reply. I ask members to refer to the Minister or Minister of State to whom they are addressing their questions.

Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Simon Harris)

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to it as part of its consideration of the Department’s Revised Estimates. I am accompanied today by the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, who has responsibility for skills and further education and by officials from the Department. I am conscious that I have only five minutes to deliver my opening statement so I will be very brief and give an overview of the Revised Estimates for my Department for 2021. I can pick up on issues in the exchanges with members.

The allocation for the Department’s 2021 Estimate was drawn up in late 2020 as part of the 2021 Estimates process, which allocated an additional €236 million. The increased allocation for the Department allowed me to fund a number of major priorities, including provision for increased undergraduate places to support leaving certificate students, meeting demographic increases and support skills development, increasing supports for postgraduate students in the SUSI scheme and increasing the allocation to meet demand for SUSI grants, increasing funding for access programmes, providing additional funding to support the research system, and investing in skills provision, particularly as we try to rebuild and repair after the Covid pandemic. These measures were in addition to the Covid supports provided to the further and higher education sector and to students during 2020. In total, these supports amounted to €216 million, with an additional €100 million for skills provision from the National Training Fund.

The Department’s capital ceiling was also increased, and funding was also provided to meet the costs associated with the public sector pay deal. Indeed, 47% of the Department’s gross Vote is allocated to pay and pensions, reflecting the crucial work our public servants carry out in the further and higher education system and in the science and innovation sector. This Department provides the funding for more than 25,000 public servants and more than 11,000 public servant pensioners.

Today marks the first time the Department’s Vote inclusive of research, innovation and science funding will be discussed at the committee. In many ways, the timing could not be better, as on 8 March we launched the new Department’s statement of strategy. This outlines our goals to develop talent and skills, support learning for all, and promote Irish research, knowledge and innovation on the world stage.

The Revised Estimate for Vote 45 before the committee provides for a net allocation of €2.7 billion, representing a gross allocation of €2.8 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of €100 million. When taken with the National Training Fund expenditure available, the overall gross expenditure allocation for my Department in 2021 increases to €3.5 billion.

The Vote 45 allocation comprises a number of key elements. These are an allocation of more than €2.5 billion to meet the various requirements of the Department in the areas of further and higher education, including some increase during the 2021 Estimates process reflecting the public sector pay deal, an increase to the capital ceiling and other assorted expenditure, the transfer of €226 million in funding from Vote 32 relating to research, innovation and science along with additional research funding secured as part of the budget for 2021, and an allocation of €20 million in budget 2021 to fund Covid-19 student grants through Student Universal Support Ireland in the face of the ongoing pandemic.

We are all well aware of the profound impact that Covid-19 has had globally over the past year. I place on record my gratitude to all involved in ensuring the continued health and safety of our students, lecturers and researchers, and to those working on a plan to safely reopen our institutions and establishments as much as possible in the near future. I want to students to have more on-site attendance in the next academic year. I pay tribute to students. Sometimes there can be an unfair narrative about students. They have overwhelmingly worked to follow the public health advice and play their part in the national effort against Covid-19.

I trust this overview is of some assistance to the committee and I look forward to discussing these issues in more detail. I commend the Revised Estimate to the committee.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister and join him in commending students on the huge work they have done this year and on everything they have done to maintain safety, working with other students to support them. The figures provided indicate that the general grant to the institutes of technology and universities has been cut by 9%. Is that correct? My next question is on CAO places and the pressure on the leaving certificate. Is the Minister satisfied the budget will be able to do enough to bring additional places into third level to ease the pressure on the CAO system? How many additional places will be added for undergraduate students coming through the CAO system in 2021? How many of these will be over and above the number projected to meet demographic demands? Specifically with regard to graduate entry medical students, excluding places for international students and places already allocated to those who sat the leaving certificate last November, how many medical places will be available to the class of 2021? How will this compare with the class of 2020? How many medical places have already been allocated to students who sat the leaving certificate last November?

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh. I will try to take the questions in sequence. The year-on-year movement for higher education is skewed due to the temporary Covid funding in 2020.

Of the €216 million allocated to my Department for Covid in 2020, €202 million was allocated to higher education. Removing Covid from the 2020 and the 2021 figures shows that the higher education programme B has actually increased year on year by €161 million. This is driven by measures in budget 2021. University and institute of technology grants, which come under subhead B4 and which I believe the Deputy is referring to, had €156 million in temporary Covid support in 2020. This skews the figure when comparing year on year. When one excludes that temporary funding, the real movement year on year under subhead B4 is an increase of 6%, or €58 million. This is driven by additional funding in budget 2021 for pay deals, research and additional calculated grade places. As the committee will be aware, the Government holds Covid money for this year centrally. My Department is expecting to receive an allocation of this money in the coming weeks as we work through the impact of Covid. Year on year and like for like, the level of funding under the general current grants in subhead B4 is up 6%. That is the reason the 9% is skewed. I hope I got all the Deputy's questions. If I did not, she should please come back to me.

On places, as of now and standing still based on the budget allocation, we have funding to provide 4,130 additional higher education places this September compared with last year. Of these, 2,700 are based on demographic projections and the remainder are based on the human capital initiative. Today we have the funding in place for just over 4,000 additional places. The challenge that has been put to me is can we do more above and beyond that. I believe we can. I have set up a working group in the Department which is working with the CAO, the universities and the institutes. It will report back to me just after Easter, at which time I intend to go to Cabinet to say what more we will be able to do, subject to the Government making funding available.

There are some constraints, mainly in the context of placements. It is important, in many areas, that for any extra place we create, we must also have a matching placement. We will be linking with the Department of Health for nursing and medical placements and with the Department of Education in the context of teaching placements. On a specific answer regarding the medical places and on how many additional places there will be above and beyond the 4,000, we will have clarity next month. I will be happy to come back to the committee with a detailed note or to engage with it further.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. The next speaker was to be Deputy Farrell but he had to attend another meeting. Next is Deputy O'Sullivan.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the Ministers and Ministers of State. I have just two or three brief questions. Under Vote 45, there is reference to PhDs funded by Science Foundation Ireland, SFI. The number of designated PhDs has decreased from 237 to 125. The years in question are 2018 and 2019. What was the reason for this decline? Is it as simple as fewer applications due to Covid? Is the impact of Covid being seen on the numbers of SFI-approved PhDs for those two years?

Deputy Simon Harris

It tends to be a demand-led scheme. We will seek clarity from SFI that there is nothing further behind that. There is certainly no funding reason as to why there would be a decline in those numbers. We are increasing our level of funding in the research area and we are also increasing funding support to PhD students through stipends.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister. If the matter can be clarified further, I would appreciate it.

My second point relates to the trend in the number of people who are studying on a part-time or flexible basis. Judging by these figures, the number increased by approximately 11% or 12% since 2017 and 2018. This is a trend that is likely to continue into the future. There is a progress review on the national access plan due later this year. Will the Minister clarify the timeline for that? Are we to expect that review later this year?

Deputy Simon Harris

Yes, we are expecting that later this year. We have already started to engage with the steering group we have in place in respect of the implementation of a national access plan. It is fair to say that when we look at the existing access plan, we see improvements in pretty much all areas. There is an area that we have not seen the improvement we would wish to see, namely, that relating to mature students. There is a major opportunity arising from Covid. We must try to find the opportunities in the context of delivering education in a more flexible way and ensuring that mature students can access education in an easier way. We will look to set targets and new types of targets around access. I am very concerned that when we measure disability we only measure some disabilities. I do not believe there is a broad enough metric in that regard. Through public consultation there will be an opportunity for everyone to make their views known, probably over the summer months. I would also be very happy to make officials available to this committee in getting the views of the committee on how we can have the most robust national access plan possible. There will be a new national access plan delivered towards the latter half of this year.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

The Minister touched on my final question, which is the study relating to mature student participation in higher education. This is also due in 2021. Will the Minister clarify when it is due?

Deputy Simon Harris

I do not have a specific date for when I am due to receive it but I will seek an update and revert to the Deputy. It is due this year. I do not believe there could be a more timely moment to get this study. We will have the review of the SUSI, the national access plan and the learnings from Covid. We will receive it this year and I will try to find a specific timeframe and I will revert to the Deputy through the committee.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the Ministers and Ministers of State for being with us. I have a lot of questions and a short amount of time. I will rattle through them as quickly as I possibly can.

My first point is on equality budgeting. I am delighted to see the detail in the Revised Estimates on equality budgeting but would love if we had more time to really drill down into it. I see there is progress. It is slow progress and I would like to see more done. I am glad that the information was presented.

I will now turn to my questions. Is there a specific funding provision for technological university, TU, projects? Will the Minister consider enacting legislation to allow the technological universities to borrow in the same way that the regular universities do so there is a funding stream apart from a the Central Fund and the Exchequer?

Referring to appendix B on apprenticeships, our output target in 2020 was 20,000. Our output target in 2021 is only 21,000. This is a very modest increase. This question is to the Minister of State. Are we really hoping to ramp up our ambition here? I am thinking specifically of our retrofit targets.

Subheads A1 and B1 both have a 17% or 18% increase in administration costs. I am always wary when I see a jump in administration costs. Is further detail available on that?

Subhead B5 deals with teacher training colleges. I wonder where this will end up. Will it end up in second level with the Minister for Education's Department or the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science's Department? Are there any plans for developing an Irish language training college for primary level, which is sorely needed?

I am sorry for rattling so many questions at the Ministers, but my final question is on subhead B17 and public private partnerships. There is a 116% increase. I am sure this relates to a specific project or projects but it is a very large increase. Will the Minister provide detail on that please?

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh, I was trying to write his questions down. I thank the Deputy for the comments on equality budgeting. We are very happy to provide the committee with any further information it might require. It is an area that is definitely worthy of some additional scrutiny also.

On the TU agenda, which the Deputy is very passionate about and especially with regard to the south east, there is funding allocated through the transformations fund. This is given out over a number of years. The Deputy will be familiar with that. The Government has, to date, invested heavily in the TU agenda with more than €65 million invested so far through landscape and transformation funding. The transformation fund will expend €90 million up to 2023, with €34.3 million having been allocated in the first tranche last October. In total, more than €120 million will have been invested in TU development and progression.

I assure the committee there is no lack of commitment to ensuring that all areas can benefit from the region-centric and multi-campus TU. Though already long established in the higher education landscape in other countries, the concept is a new one here. I very much accept that. We continue to engage with colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on the borrowing framework but we also need to be conscious of the whole issue of EUROSTAT on that. I will keep the committee up to date.

I, too, am always wary of administration cost increases, but I will advise the Deputy on subheads A1 and A2. There is a net increase of €772,000 overall.

It is driven by additional funding for the establishment of a new Department, but it is also an internal reallocation between pay and non-pay. I assure the Deputy that they are the two reasons behind that. I will ask the Minister of State to comment on the apprenticeship issue.

On subhead B17 and the costs of public-private partnerships, PPPs, there is an additional €41 million in the capital ceiling adjustment out of an overall €92.5 million in the national development plan, NDP, increase. The purpose of this is to enable us to pay unitary charges to PPP operators. I will send the Deputy a note with further details. I ask the Minister of State to respond on apprenticeships.

Deputy Niall Collins

I thank the Deputy for his question on apprenticeships. As he knows, the apprenticeship action plan is in gestation. The consultation process has closed and is being assessed. More than 3,750 apprentices and some 340 employers took part in the consultation and there were more than 60 written submissions. When the action plan is published there will be specific targets in it. As the Deputy knows, the programme for Government also sets out ambitious targets. It is the Department's view that the Estimate sets out a realistic target as regards stepping up to meet those commitments as we go forward.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister and Minister of State for attending. I agree with the Minister that students should be commended. I will go further and commiserate with them as well. It has been a fairly awful year for them, particularly for students who started their third level experience in September of last year.

The Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State in her Department, Deputy Madigan, appeared before the committee earlier. It is obviously great we are getting kids back to school and will, hopefully, have all of them back to school after Easter. Does the Minister have any news to give to third level students as to when it is likely they will get back to campus to enjoy the on-college experience of being at third level? Should we consider using antigen testing or are there any other measures he would like to see considered, or used, for the purpose of trying to expedite getting students back on campus?

Deputy Simon Harris

I would love to see antigen testing used. I will defer to our scientists and medical experts on this, but we have already seen some universities use their own initiative in relation to it. Antigen testing is part of our national toolkit in the fight against Covid. In my view, based on conversations I have had with people more knowledgeable than I am, a college environment could be a very appropriate place to see it rolled out. The Government is awaiting a report to the National Public Health Emergency Team, NPHET, on antigen testing. I would certainly be very happy to volunteer our sector to participate for the reasons stated by the Deputy.

On the broader issue, I am very conscious that I have to be honest with students. The public health advice is very clear. At level 4 and level 5, the overwhelming majority of college remains online. Students doing apprenticeships, practicals and laboratory work and vulnerable learners and the like can come in but the overwhelming majority of college work stays online. We have a published plan for the safe reopening and safe return to college but it is contingent on the behaviour of the virus.

We meet every Friday with all our university stakeholders and student unions. We are planning for the new academic year. I expect we will see much more on-site attendance in September and, hopefully, a return to something that looks and feels a bit more normal in the new college year. We will provide an update to students and staff early this summer as to what they can expect September to look like.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

We have obviously lost out on many students coming from abroad to study at Irish third level institutions. That opens opportunities for at-home Irish students. Is there much of a gap in funding to third level institutions as a result of the lower number of students coming from abroad to study at third level institutions here?

Deputy Simon Harris

There is no doubt there is a gap in funding. The scale of that remains to be fully determined through engagement my Department is having with the Higher Education Authority, HEA, and the education institutions. We have seen a dramatic reduction in the number of overseas students. From memory, we have seen about 11,000 compared with a figure of up to 35,000 or 40,000 in previous years. It is a very significant reduction in overseas students. That is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

The Department is preparing a new international education strategy to see how we recover as a country in a post-Covid environment but there is no doubt it will result in a financial hit to our institutions. The Government is heavily supporting our institutions with Covid funding and we will continue to engage with them as the problem begins to crystallise.

Chairman

Deputy Conway-Walsh is taking Deputy Ó Laoghaire's slot.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The Minister is right that students and third level institutions want to know we are doing everything possible to increase the number of places. We have predicted grades again this year and we need to make as many places as possible available at third level institutions. However, what students really want is transparency around the numbers. I see Deputy Ó Laoghaire is there and may wish to speak.

Chairman

Unfortunately, we cannot allow Deputy Ó Laoghaire to contribute because he is not on the Leinster House campus. I apologise to him.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

How many of the 5,000 places allocated last year were actually taken up or used?

Deputy Simon Harris

I will have to get the Deputy a breakdown on that. I do not have that information available. The Deputy is trying to get under the bonnet to find out whether funded places were not taken up or funding was provided that did not match with places. That is highly unlikely considering we had a very intensive engagement with the universities and institutes of technology to try to match the extra demand arising from calculated grades, and had to do this again when students got an uplift when the error occurred.

This year, we are mapping out what the Deputy asked. We now have knowledge from the Central Applications Office, CAO, as to where the extra demand is likely to be. Demand for some courses has gone down, for example, teaching, while demand for journalism has substantially increased. We are trying to match the funding for extra places with demand. That engagement with the education institutions, the HEA, the CAO and my Department will continue throughout April.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

It is important that we know how many places were taken up last year and the courses for which there was excess demand. The pressure that students have been under was referred to earlier. The way to alleviate pressure is to make sure there are extra places in the high-demand courses and also feed that through to the colleges to ensure that if infrastructure or extra tutors are needed, they will be provided in those subjects and courses. We need to ensure that happens. Does the Minister know how many extra tutors were employed last year within the third level institutions?

Deputy Simon Harris

We do not have that information to hand as this is a discussion of the Revised Estimates but we can certainly get it for the Deputy through the HEA. There is no issue with that. We do not have that level of granularity for a discussion on Vote 45.

Senator Rose Conway-Walsh

In the broader sense, when we are announcing money and doing the Estimates and so on, we need to follow through to make sure the outcomes of that make a real difference to students and the third level institutions.

Deputy Simon Harris

That is entirely reasonable and correct but there are very clear ways of measuring it. We know, for example, how many people took up a place last year through the CAO in the first round. We saw the increase in the number of students getting level 6 and level 7 offers. There is no doubt whatsoever that more students went to college this year than the previous year. That is a point worth making. We are able to map these things out.

There is another important figure. We know that every year around 50% of students get a place in their first choice course and around 80% of students get a place on one of their top three choices. We saw that metric again this year, which would suggest that the extra places made a very real and meaningful difference to getting students into college. More students got a college place this year than ever before. This year, more students will get a college place again. However, the Deputy's point is true in that it is not always possible to match extra places to those areas in which there is most demand. Sometimes those reasons are non-financial.

Sometimes those reasons concern matters relating to placements. That is why we are working across Government to see if there is scope to increase not just places but also placements in respect of courses that require clinical placements, teaching placements, etc.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

This question is for the Minister of State. Given the revenue and surplus relating to the National Training Fund, is now not the time to invest in apprenticeships in order to increase the numbers and let apprenticeships be a driving force in the recovery after Covid? Is there anything in the Revised Estimates to deal with the huge backlog of apprentices waiting for off-the-job training? That backlog stands at 6,928, some 1,800 of whom have been waiting for over a year.

Deputy Niall Collins

Later this week the Minister and I will make an announcement on providing capital funding of the order of €20 million for the provision of apprenticeships. Suffice it to say that any moneys from the training fund that remain unused will be surrendered and made available again.

On placements, we are cognisant of the issue the Deputy has raised. We all hear of it every day of the week, both in the Department and at our constituency offices. The challenge in this regard is Covid-related.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

There was a backlog before Covid. However, the current backlog is extremely serious. I ask the Minister of State to do everything he can and use the excess in the National Training Fund to ensure that the more than 6,000 apprenticeships to which I refer do not have to be extended beyond four years to six years or whatever. The Minister of State will be acutely aware of the knock-on implications of that.

Chairman

Will the Minister provide an update on the Wexford campus and the TU application for the south east? Deputy Ó Cathasaigh posed a similar question but I wish to ask about the provision in the Revised Estimates for the increase in funding that will be required for the establishment of the new TUs. Is the Minister considering the enactment of legislation to give the TUs the same borrowing capacity as other universities? More generally, has consideration been given to the future funding of higher education in view of the fact that the EU-funded economic analysis of the Cassells report will, I understand, be published shortly? Is the Minister of State confident that there is sufficient funding available under the programme to provide additional retraining that will inevitably be required due to Covid-19 and to fund the new apprenticeship training plan to ensure sufficient apprentices are trained to the highest international standard? The Ministers have done work with the hospitality sector and I met with representatives from that sector recently. Will the Minister of State shed some light on the conversations he has had with the hospitality sector?

Deputy Simon Harris

In the context of the Wexford campus, I am pleased to tell the committee that Institute of Technology Carlow has submitted to the Higher Education Authority a significant amount of documentation and information on a site it is pursuing. That process needs to be gone through in a robust manner but I am hopeful for a positive outcome. The Government's commitment is crystal clear in that we wish to provide a Wexford site for the TU for the south east. I know the Chairman is passionate about this matter and I assure him that we intend to deliver on it. The TU for the south east remains on track to submit its application to me on or before 28 April. I am conscious a balloting process is either under way or about to commence through the various unions including the Teachers Union of Ireland. I am respectful of that. I appreciate the fact that so many Deputies and Senators from the south east, across parties and from all counties, signed a letter of support on the TU for the south east and that they see this as a huge opportunity to create a powerhouse for investment and education in the region.

On the borrowing framework, it is something we always consider. Any decision in relation to the potential for any institute to borrow has to be viewed in the context of overall general Government debt. Institutes technology and TUs are classified as being within general Government, while traditional universities are classified as being outside general Government for EUROSTAT purposes. We need to be cautious in how we deal with this matter and we need to engage with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on it. We always keep these issues under review. Our level of commitment, as a Government and as a State, to the TU agenda and to investing more and more in it is clear for all to see. I will provide the Chairman with a note on the significant allocations we have made to each of the institutions as part of that transformation funds over recent months and years.

On future funding, I am glad the Chairman brought this up because it will be one of the biggest issues my Department, this committee, the Oireachtas and the Government will have to address in the context of higher education. We are due to receive, as the Chairman said, that report with input from the European Commission in quarter 2 of this year and I am eager to have an honest debate around it and to make decisions. I think there has been too much political cowardice or can-kicking on this issue. We have to get it right as our economic and societal well-being relies on having a robustly funded future and higher education sector. I will ask my colleague to take the questions relating to the apprenticeship scheme.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. Every Deputy in the south east signed the letter bar one. I thank all Deputies and Senators who signed that letter in favour of the TU for the south east. I was disappointed that there was a Deputy from Waterford who did not sign it. It says a lot about his willingness to have a TU in the south east for the students. This is about students in the south east and we should leave politics aside but, although I accept that a person has his or her own free will, I am disappointed that a public representative did not sign that letter.

Deputy Niall Collins

On the hospitality and tourism sector, the Chair will be aware that the Minister and I recently launched an initiative in the presence of the Irish Hotels Federation. The Chair asked about contacts and communications with the sector. Suffice it to say that it is regularly in contact with us and with the Department. This is against the backdrop, which we all know, of the sector being shut as a result of Covid. The opportunities in terms of placement and apprenticeships are limited but some of the focus has been on assisting the sector in retaining key staff and upskilling them into middle management and supervisory roles. The challenge for the sector when the economy ultimately reopens will revolve around the ability to get up to speed as quickly as possible. We are keen to ensure that it does not have a human capital deficit so we are trying to assist them to hold on to their key people. On the various offerings across our further education and training providers, we will get the committee a note to give it the helicopter view of what is available to the sector in terms of the various channels and providers.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State. I commend both Ministers on their work with the hospitality sector. It is an important sector if we are to have a recovering economy post Covid-19. The sector is appreciative of the Ministers' work with it. I ask the Ministers to continue that good work and engagement with the sector. Does any other Deputy want to come in before we conclude the our deliberations?

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

May I bring one matter to the attention of the Minister?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I refer to the increase in places for medicine. Concern has been expressed to me by students who did their leaving certificate in 2019, one of whom achieved eight H1 grades. They feel that because of the lack of spaces, they will be at a severe disadvantage if there is points inflation this year. In light of the pandemic, demand in the public health area and our need to educate more doctors, clinicians and medical personnel, we must ensure that we are not putting barriers in place and that we are doing everything possible to invest in extra places in order that those who did the leaving certificate prior to 2020 or 2021 are not disadvantaged or excluded.

Deputy Simon Harris

Deputy Conway-Walsh makes an important point. First, I agree with her that we have an opportunity as a country now to have a conversation about how we make sure we are producing enough graduates to provide the level of public services that our citizens will expect and deserve, post Covid. That is why my Department is working, not just in its own silo but also with other Departments, to determine whether it is possible for a university to provide an additional college place for medicine and for a hospital to provide an additional clinical placement to match that. I assure the Deputy that those conversations are under way. The Taoiseach and every member of Government has been clear that financial resources will not be a constraint in terms of expanding the number of places but I must be honest with the committee that there are issues, other than financial constraints, that can be challenging. That is what we are working our way through at the moment.

Second, we are pulling all of the stakeholders together to engage with the Department and I am expecting to receive a report back from that work in April. I will then bring it to Government and seek any additional funding that might be required for any further places we can provide. We will be more than happy to share our thinking, rationale and workings with the committee at that stage.

Chairman

Would Deputy Ó Cathasaigh like to come in again? We had to rush through his questions earlier.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will take the opportunity, if I may. I do not blame the Minister at all as I batted about 15 questions at him in short order. I asked a question about the teacher training colleges and what Department they will ultimately end up in. I also asked if there are any plans to establish an Irish-language teacher training college, which was mooted previously for the Muskerry Gaeltacht because many Gaelscoileanna have desperate problems getting staff who can teach in Irish at the level required. I ask the Minister to comment or provide an update on that.

Deputy Simon Harris

My apologies but I cannot write as quickly as the Deputy can ask questions and I missed those questions earlier. On teacher training, we are still working with the Department of Education to determine exactly how we are going to address this issue. We have responsibility for third level in its entirety from a policy point of view but obviously the Department of Education has a very active interest in teachers. We are continuing to work our way through this and I imagine it will be an area of shared responsibility.

On the issue of an Irish-language teacher training college, I would be more than happy to look into that, engage with the Minister for Education on it and then revert to the Deputy directly.

Chairman

That concludes our consideration of the Revised Estimates. I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for their very constructive engagement today.