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Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy debate -
Tuesday, 1 Jun 1993

Vote 18 — Transport, Energy and Communications.

I welcome the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy N. Treacy, and the representatives from the various Departments for which Deputy N. Treacy has responsibility.

The suggested timetable for today is included with the Deputies' papers and it has already been agreed upon by the two convenors — Deputy Creed, on behalf of Fine Gael, and Deputy Lawlor, on behalf of the Government. We will discuss it programme by programme. I call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

I welcome this opportunity to appear before the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy to discuss the 1993 Estimates for the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications. This new forum for debate and discussion makes for a more open and meaningful examination of departmental Estimates and consequently is welcomed by all sides of the House.

I understand that the system has operated satisfactorily to date and I hope that today's proceedings will also be fruitful. Together with the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy N. Treacy, I look forward to dealing with your questions on the 1993 Estimates later. Before I deal with specifics in the Vote, I will briefly outline the background agianst which these Estimates have been framed.

My Department has responsibility for three major sectors in the Irish economy — transport, energy and communications. Because of their importance and size, these sectors have a potent role to play in influencing the shape of the economy and in helping to improve overall performance. As a result my Department is extremely conscious of the vital role it plays in determining future policy in these areas and of its responsibility to ensure that the policies pursued respond to the needs of not only the business sector but also of the Irish people.

The execution of policy is of course carried out mainly through the State bodies under my aegis. I know I have been titled in some quarters "The Minister for State Bodies" and it is true to say that my Department has responsibility for a large number of State bodies, including most of the commercial bodies. The bodies under my aegis are: Aer Lingus, Aer Rianta, CIE, ESB, Bord na Móna, Bord Gáis, Irish National Petroleum Company, the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, An Post and Bord Telecoms. The commercial bodies have a combined turnover of over £3.6 billion and provide over 60,000 jobs, which represents 6 per cent of total employment in the economy.

My portfolio is, therefore, a very wide ranging one which touches not only the business life of the country but also the day to day lives of ordinary people. In fact the Committee may wish to know that on top of the services provides by the semi-State bodies my Department's functions include issuing of licences for onshore and off-shore mining and prospecting, licensing of pilots and other aircraft personnel, licensing of road hauliers, tour operators, cable TV operators and others. Three other services attached to my Department are the Meteorological Service, the Geological Survey of Ireland and the Air Navigation Services Office — areas which play an important role in supplying and updating vital information to many other sectors of the economy.

Minister, may I interrupt you for a moment? We have been joined by His Excellency, President Soares of Portugal, and on behalf of the Committee I would like to welcome him and his party to the Seanad Chamber. Céad míle failte romhat.

Chairman, I would like to join with you in welcoming His Excellency, President Soares, and his esteemed entourage.

I would now like to turn to the Estimate details. Deputies have already been provided with a briefing note on the subheads. The gross Estimate for my Department for 1993 is £165.805 million. Appropriations-in-Aid are estimated at £55.469 million, giving a net estimate of £110.316 million to cover salaries, expenses and other services administered by my Department and for payment of grants and grants-in-aid.

The cost of administration, the "A" Subheads, is set at £40.406 million and covers the running costs of the Department. These costs are governed by the terms of a three year administative budget agreement which each Department has concluded with the Department of Finance. My Department has managed to meet the 2 per cent reduction target required by the agreement for each of the years 1992 and 1993. The 1993 estimate in this area contains a figure of just over £2 million carried over from savings achieved in 1992, which arose mainly due to delays in certain capital projects. This carry-over will be used this year primarily to fund essential IT projects, for necessary increased staff training in financial, managerial and IT skills, for consultancies and some overdue office maintenance work.

In relation to the "B" subheads, which cover the Energy area, members will note that the major items of expenditure relate to day to day expenses of the Geological Survey of Ireland, a provision for energy conservation and the grant-in-aid to the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland.

As outlined in the Programme for a Partnership Government, energy conservation is an important part of Government policy and will be promoted in all sectors of the economy. The energy conservation programme is intended to encourage the efficient use of all forms of energy in order to conserve scarce resources, to achieve financial savings and to protect the environment. My Department's role is to persuade others to act. Much of the energy savings which are possible will be realised through individual actions and improved practices. This is the case in industry as much as it is in the home. To this end, education and awareness campaigns administered by Eolas and aimed at specific sectors of the economy are an important feature of the Department's programme.

In recognising that my Department's energy conservation programme is by its nature constantly evolving, a detailed statistical analysis study is currently being carried out to identify where future incentives can have the greatest impact on consumption and the pattern of energy supply.

A grant-in-aid is provided in the Estimate for the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, which was established on 1 April 1992. On that day the Nuclear Energy Board was officially dissolved and its assets and liabilities transferred to the new Institute, which formally took over the functions of the old board as well as embarking on a more specific role in relation to nuclear safety and radiological protection of the Irish public.

A five year programme of capital expenditure on the National Radiological Emergency Protection Plan was completed and published in 1992. The plan ensures, among other things, that we in Ireland will be able to detect without delay any increase in radiation arising from a nuclear accident abroad. It provides for immediate appropriate action to be decided by an emergency response committee in conjunction with the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. A test of the plan took place in November 1992.

Deputies will also be aware of the Government's concern regarding Sellafield and its future developments. I have recently sent a detailed and wide-ranging submission to the UK authorities with regard to the proposed THORP extension of Sellafield. This submission conveyed in the strongest possible terms the Government's total opposition to the continued operation of all nuclear activities carried out at Sellafield and to any expansion of these activities. In particular, the submission expressed the Government's grave concerns about commissioning the proposed new THORP plant on the site and called on the UK authorities to hold a full public inquiry before any decision is taken to allow the plant to go ahead.

Before leaving the topic of energy, I would like to refer to the work of some of the other semi-State bodies in this area. Bord na Móna, which is nearing 50 years in operation, has played a major role in the energy area. The company has developed and utilised a national resource on a scale that would not have been possible without the direct involvement of the State. For a long period peat was the only significant indigenous energy source and today still represents a vital element of our energy supply as well as being a major employer.

In recent years Bord na Móna has made enormous progress in stabilising its financial situation through a variety of cost reducing measures and improved productivity. As a result, operating profits per employee have risen by a factor of four over the last four years. I am satisfied that continued progress on this front is the only means to secure the future of the company and safeguard long term employment and I am confident that management and the workforce will build on the achievements already made.

Deputies will be aware that Bord na Móna is currently in the process of conducting a feasibility study into the construction of a new peat-fired power station. The Government is committed to such a station provided that it is found to be feasible. If it proceeds it will utilise almost one million tonnes of peat per annum and Bord na Móna estimates that the station would create over 450 permanent and seasonal jobs between the operation of the station and peat harvesting operations. This will be an important element of the programme to secure the future of the peat industry and will point the way for continued utilisation of this valuable resource.

Thanks to the achievements of Bord Gáis since it was set up in 1976, we now have a vibrant gas industry in Ireland, with natural gas now accounting for about 17 per cent of primary energy requirement. For reasons of efficiency, economy and environmental concerns, increased use of this clean, versatile and, for now, indigenous fuel source, is an important component of energy policy and we confidently expect it to double its penetration of the market by the year 2015.

The provision of long term secure supplies of gas into the future, both to replace current indigenous reserves, which will be depleted shortly after the year 2000, and to cater for the projected expansion of the gas market, is a major priority. The discovery in recent years of the Ballycotton gas field, now in production, was an encouraging, if modest, sign that further indigenous reserves may well be waiting to be found in our off-shore.

The current situation where we have only a single source of supply and a single link to the country's largest market, Dublin, is worrying, and I am anxious to see that an alternative source of supply is available in the event of a disruption. Accordingly, I am pleased to report progress on the construction this year of the Ireland-UK gas interconnector pipeline from Loughshinny to Moffat in Scotland.

The project is now well advanced. Subsea construction is complete and work has commenced on the compressor station in Scotland and on both the Scottish and Irish onshore sections of the pipeline. The project is on target for completion in October this year at a total cost of around £287 million, of which 35 per cent is being provided by the EC. This major project is on time and within budget.

Turning to electricity matters, it is vital that society in general and industry in particular have access to a reliable and competitively priced source of electricity. Growth in demand in recent years has reduced the surplus capacity available and there is now a need for substantial investment in additional capacity, network development and plant renewal in the medium term. This puts the onus on the ESB to examine all facets of its operations in order to identify potential savings and to maintain the competitiveness of product generally.

The Government recently approved proposals for a major restructuring of the ESB which includes, inter alia, internal reorganisation of the ESB into five business units. These proposals are designed to encourage greater cost transparency and competition into the electricity industry. These proposals are fully in line with the Government decision on the recommendations of the Culliton Task Force and also reflect general trends within the EC. As it will be necessary to prepare legislation to give effect to these changes, Deputies will have another opportunity to comment on these proposals.

Subhead C. covers road and rail transport expenditure. The largest single item of expenditure in my Department's Estimate, at £108.4 million, is the proposed Exchequer grant to CIE in respect of the provision of essential public transport services. This represents the same allocation in cash terms as the company received in 1992. Of the £108.4 million, Iarnród Éireann will receive £90.4 million of which £45 million will go on the maintenance and upkeep of the railway infrastructure. The other £45 million will go to support the operation of socially desirable services which cannot operate on a fully commercial basis and to make interest and other exceptional payments including £10 million in respect of interest on loans taken out to finance the development of the DART system.

The level of Exchequer subvention paid to CIE over the last decade has been substantial especially when viewed against the difficult budgetary constraints faced by the Exchequer. For example, in the period 1980-92 total direct Exchequer subvention payments to CIE amounted to over £1 billion. With the railway accounting for the bulk of Exchequer support, future subvention policy and policy as regards future investment in the railway network are obviously interrelated. As far as the latter is concerned, a strategic study on the future of the railway has been carried out by my Department in conjunction with the Department of Finance, CIE and independent consultants. This study has addressed all the major issues including costs, long term investment requirements and possible sources of funding for investment in the rail network.

On the basis of this work, a bid for EC funds for an investment programme for the development of the railway has been included in my Department's submission for the next tranche of Structural and Cohesion Funds. The scale of such an investment programme and the level of EC assistance will be determined by the Government and the EC authorities in the overall context of the national development plan which the Government will be submitting to the EC authorities later this year.

The severe traffic congestion and transportation problems of Dublin city and its immediate hinterland are the subject of a major initiative — the Dublin Transportation Initiative — which is being co-funded by the EC authorities. The interim report of the DTI has recently been published and contains proposals for an integrated strategy involving a programme of transportation investment, including roads, public transport, traffic management and enforcement measures for the period 1994-97 under the next phase of EC Structural Funds. This programme is set in the context of a full transportation strategy for Dublin up to the year 2011. The interim report also contains significant recommendations for major public transport invesment including the development of a light rail system and a significant enhancement of existing bus and rail services.

At present, the recommendations in the interim report are the subject of further analysis by the DTI, the results of which will be reflected in the final report which is expected shortly. This final report will form an integral part of the Government's input into negotiations on EC funds for the period after 1993. The availability of significant levels of EC funds will be essential for the implementation of the public transport elements of the DTI.

On a point of order, may I ask the Chairman to explain the position in relation to the vote which is taking place in the Dáil?

We will endeavour to continue with the work of the Select Committee. If there is a balance of Government and Opposition Deputies, we will continue.

I do not see how that can operate. I do not know whether it was agreed between the Whips. The Chair is aware that a vote may be called and the party calling the vote may be required to indicate whether it has the required number of Deputies. If my party is calling that vote, it is important that Deputy Cullen and I be present.

If the Deputies wish to go to the Dáil to vote they are entitled to do so. We must continue with the business of the Committee.

I do not see how that can be.

That is a choice the Deputy must make.

I wish to protest.

The Deputy's protest has been noted.

I must explain why I am protesting. An imposible situation has arisen, where Estimates are being considered in this forum and Deputies are required to be present in the other forum. The matter has not been resolved. The matter was raised at the first meeting of this Committee and was not explained satisfactorily. Therefore, we propose the adjournment of this Select Committee meeting until the vote in the Dáil is completed.

I must reject the Deputy's proposal. It was agreed in your absence. The question was raised at the first meeting and the Deputy cannot expect the business of the Committee to be delayed until his return.

Fine Gael Deputies have a pairing arrangement with the Government and we will facilitate the continued operation of the Committee.

I appreciate Deputy Molloy's situation but this matter could be resolved at the Whips' meeting. In order to continue with this meeting it was agreed that at least three members would pair with the Opposition. Perhaps the Progressive Democrat Whip would regularise the situation at the next meeting.

I was absent from the last meeting. I was away on international business on behalf of the House. If a decision was made in my absence then so be it. It is neither logical nor fair. I do not see how equity can operate under such circumstances. We believe the Progressive Democrats may have called this vote.

The Deputy's point has been noted.

A Fine Gael member will be speaking for 15 minutes. The Deputy will not miss any of the proceedings.

The Deputy will miss a good speech.

I accept that. Democracy will not be unduly interfered with, while the Fine Gael member speaks.

Expenditure in relation to aviation is covered by the D. subheads. The bulk of the expenditure in these subheads relates to the provision of air navigation systems and aids at State airports. Ireland's air transport policy has been formulated against the background of our peripheral location, the tourism and trading needs of our economy and the deregulation and liberalisation of air services within the EC and is in line with the Government's general economic objective of job creation through economic growth. It is essential that competitiveness in international markets is achieved. The Programme for a Partnership Government attaches a high priority to the future development of modern effficient transport links with Britain, Europe and further afield. Ireland's air transport policy is geared towards achieving, maintaining and improving such links.

Deputies on all sides are concerned about the serious financial difficulties facing Aer Lingus. Unfortunately, the core business, air transport, excluding once-off items, will once again show a substantial loss for the financial year just ended.

Aer Lingus's ancillary activities have in the past been able to underpin the air transport operations. However, these too, have been hard hit by the international economic recession and by increased competition. Companies like TEAM Aer Lingus and Airmotive must operate in what is now an increasingly competitive international environment. In addition, the hotels are pro-cyclical with the airline business. Any strategy for recovery must focus on the core business of Aer Lingus: in other words, the airline. As a result of our island status, access transport in general and air transport in particular are crucially important.

The primary responsibility for ensuring the commercial viability of Aer Lingus rests with the management and board of the company. The Government's role, as shareholder, is to assess strategies adopted by the board. This assessment, including a decision on the approporiate level of equity injection to which the Government is committed, must be in conformity with EC guidelines and also take account of the constaints on the public finances and of the Government's wider responsibilities to the taxpayer.

Any investment of equity by the Government in Aer Lingus must be approved by the EC Commission. I have already had meetings with Commissioner Matutes and Commissioner Van Miert in Brussels to discuss EC policy issues as they apply to State investment in Aer Lingus. The Commission confirmed that any State aid could only be considered in limited and exceptional circumstances and in the context of a comprehensive restructuring of the company. It was also confirmed that any such investment could only be on a firm and clear understanding that it would be for a necessary once-off restructuring by the company to ensure the early return of its airline business to full commercial viability. With the goodwill and determination of all parties, Aer Lingus can overcome its current difficulties. The company must come forward with a realistic strategy which will ensure it has a commercially viable long term future. This is in the interests of the company itself, its employees and the Government.

I would like to mention the communications area briefly. It is difficult to believe that it is less than ten years since An Post and Telecom Éireann were established with the break-up of the old Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The two companies have made enormous strides in this relatively short space of time in reshaping their respective structures to meet the needs of the changing times.

Telecom Éireann, with its large scale investment in new equipment over the past few years, is now an ultra modern organisation capable of satisfying the demands of industry in the telecommunications field. While the recently announced new tariff package has come in for some criticism, it should be seen for what it is: an effort to encourage business development, provide customers with maximum choice and incentives to develop a more efficient and widespread use of the telephone system.

The result of the current tariff structure, which reflects the needs of the telephone system before its modernisation, is that international and national trunk calls are particularly expensive and long duration local calls are cheap, by reference to underlying costs and the type of tariff structure being applied by more efficient telecommunication operators. This situation led to demands for tariff reforms from business organisations and from the EC Commission, who are pursuing a policy of liberalisation of the telecommunications market and the opening up of EC traffic to more competition. The new strucutre of tariffs being implemented in September is a two-way process which involves reducing some tariffs and increasing others, in order to achieve a stated objective and to correct adverse effects. Despite debate about the increased costs of prolonged local calls, the package represents an overall reduction in tariffs which, based on present calling patterns, will cost Telecom Éireann approximately £15 million. In short, consumers in aggregate should benefit from the changes.

Last year, for the first time since 1988, An Post recorded a profit, albeit a modest one. While, obviously, this performance is to be welcomed, it must be acknowledged that the financial results for 1992 are of an exceptional nature and obscure the underlying high cost problem of An Post, which has still to be resolved. Detailed negotiations between management and unions on recovery proposal for the company are continuing under the general auspices of the Labour Relations Commission and I understand that progress has been made.

In the context of its strategy for implementation of the Culliton report on industrial policy, the Government has decided that An Post should implement efficiency and cost reduction measures without recourse to general price increases or public subsidy. Also, as part of that strategy, the Government has decided that An Post should reduce its postal charges to at least average EC levels over a three-year period. The prospect of increased competition for the postal service as a result of EC liberalisation proposals makes it imperative that An Post is as cost-effective and efficient as possible in order to cope with any new challenges and avail itself of any new opportunities that may arise from EC developments.

Before I conclude, I would like to pay tribute to the staff in the agencies and State-sponsored bodies under my aegis who, in good times and bad, have given dedicated service to the State in their various fields. Despite the criticisms which are made from time to time we have, in my view, been very well served by our State sector, which has been at the centre of economic activity in this country and has pioneered very many worthwhile developments; created employement and, in the difficult economic climate of recent years, kept pace with international developments.

This recognition of the role of semi-State bodies is not in any sense a sign of nostalgia of the past. In fact, Deputies will be aware that it is my intention to come before the House later this year to introduce legislation to transfer responsibility for air navigation services from my Department to a new semi-State body, the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA). The new semi-State body will operate on a commercial basis and will reflect the best practices of the semi-State sector. It will provide air navigation services of the highest standards which will compare favourably with organisations of its kind throughout the world.

It must, of course, be acknowledged that all the existing commercial State bodies are in one way or another facing challenges and difficulties. The big challenge of the coming years is, I believe, creating organisations which can cope in an increasingly competitive environment and continue to serve the public interest. I believe that with goodwill on all sides we can succeed in this objective. My Department will seek to determine the best way forward in consultation with these bodies, having regard to the policies outlined in the Programme for a Partnership Government, and in particular to the unemployment situation.

The night this Government was formed, it was supported by 101 Deputies. Although this has reduced somewhat since then, this Government still enjoys the biggest majority since the foundation of the State. The Government has a social partner arrangement with the trade unions and the employer and farmer organisations. There is now a geat monolithic consensus in which all the decision makers are, in one way or another, supposed to be tied in. Against these combined forces, the words of the Opposition must sometimes appear weak and ineffectual. That may be the appearance, but I suggest the reality is somewhat different. The Minister's own Department and other Departments have been served strike notice by the CPSU and IMPACT. Some 50,000 people in Dublin are without a bus service and we are rapidly heading towards an all-out bus strike in the city. This problem is within the remit of the Minister and I will deal with it later.

The Culliton report was accepted by the Government collectively and separately by both Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party. The Government arranged that the Moriarty task force would examine Culliton's recommendations and these were modified in a major way by Moriarty. The Government examined the Moriarty recommendations and, after further rejections and modifications, have now decided on a course of action. These decisions are of particular relevance to the Minister's Department. Pages 16-18 of the Moriarty report deal with energy policy; pages 23-24 with communications policy; pages 26-27 with transport policy and I ask the Minister today to inform this Committee of his timetable for the implementation of these proposals. I also ask him to state what consultation he intends to have with the social partners — particularly the trade unions — before he implements the proposals in respect of Telecom Éireann, An Post, the ESB, An Bord Gáis, Bord na Móna, Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus. It seems to me that the Minister's speech is slack in the area of most concern. The Government has made decisions about policy in these areas — there is a supposed timetable agreed — but all we get in the Minister's speech are passing references to his core role; the establishment, development and carrying out of policy in respect of the agencies.

I would now like to comment on the Estimates in sequence and I will address the policy issues raised in my opening remarks as I proceed. The A. group of subheads deal with the administrative work of the Department. In so far as they deal with the pay of civil servants in the Department, the issue of the strike notice served by the CPSU arises. I would like the Minister to explain why 13,000 lower paid civil servants will embark on a national one day stoppage on June 28. How does it occur that, in a country supposedly ruled by such a monolithic consensus, the agreements made with some of the lowest paid workers in the public service are not honoured. What purpose does a consensus approach to labour relations serve if agreements are not kept and strikes avoided?

The Minister is aware of how little discretionary income his lower paid civil servants have and how many of them — especially some of the younger women — lead a hand to mouth existence in Dublin flats. Does he think it appropriate to be in conflict with these people and then seek sanction for an increase of 86 per cent for the provision for consultancy services, on which he intends spending £881,000 this year? I would like the Minister to explain his intentions in respect of air traffic control. Will it be set up on a State service basis and what provision is being made for consultation with the relevant trade unions to ensure the minimum disruption, in both the lifestyle and the career prospects, of those presently working in the service?

The Minister comes from a constituency where the combined activities of Bord na Móna and the ESB have been fundamental to its economy, as they have been to the economies of much of the midland counties. The relationship between these two companies has come under close scrutiny by both the Culliton and Moriarty committees. They point out the high cost of peat for electricity generation. It is close to three times the cost of coal and twice the cost of gas or oil. Moriarty calculates that this opening cost, together with the extra cost of generation, is equivalent to a surcharge of four per cent on all electricity bills. This seems to me to be a pointed reference and a strong indication of the thinking of Culliton and Moriarty. Moriarty further points out that the Department of Energy is looking at the possibility of investment in a modern peat power station as a way of reducing the cost of generation. The Minister referred to this today. What the Minister did not say was that Moriarty warned that if the new investment does not reduce costs it would be a most ill-advised project and should not proceed. The excess cost of peat fuel generation is approximately £30 million, more than the cost of generating from oil. The recommendations in the Moriarty report are clear and the Minister must clarify his intentions. It is not sufficient to refer to a new super-efficient power station — for which there may be no technological basis — and ignore these recommendations which, I understand, have been accepted by the Government.

The midlands have been neglected by successive Governments and especially by this one. The activities of Bord an Móna and the ESB, have played a big part in this area but the region has been virtually ignored by the IDA and Bord Fáilte. I call on the Minister to use his influence in Cabinet for the setting up of a development plan for the midland counties, which would not only deal with the development of industry, agriculture and tourism over the next ten years, but would also draw up a blueprint for the activities of both Bord na Móna and the ESB in the region, as energy priorities change and as generation strategies are altered.

The ESB is one of the leading State companies. It announced last week that it was undergoing major restructuring and that this had been accepted by the Government. I would like the Minister to justify this restructuring and explain why he believes that the new structure is the one best designed to meet the energy needs of the country, to allow for the introduction of competition and transparency in pricing. In the event of a positive decision being made in respect of an electricity connector with the United Kingdom, how will the new structure ensure the separation of electricity generation from electricity transmission? How will consumers be in a position to import electricity over the interconnector at competitive prices if the grid and the interconnector continue to be controlled by the ESB which at the same time controls all generation in Ireland?

The Minister at Question Time in the Dáil last Thursday was particularly coy about the ESB's request to his Department to raise electricity prices by 4 per cent each year over the next five years. The compounded increase, together with VAT at 21 per cent, will increase electricity bills by between a quarter and a third. It is very difficult to justify this level of increase in circumstances where the inflation rate projection is low and the cornerstone of Government industrial policy is price competition. I ask the Minister to again confirm that the request for a price increase is tied in to the acquisition of capital by the ESB which it considers necessary for investment in transmission and that the ESB considers it has sufficient generation capacity and that further demand will be met either by the private sector generating electricity and being allowed to transmit it over the national grid or by the importation of electricity from the United Kingdom.

It is the Minister's responsibility to state policy. Policy in respect of a State company should be a matter of public scrutiny and that scrutiny should commence in this Committee today. We cannot scrutinise a policy which is developed in dark corners and about which the Minister refuses to answer straight questions. It is not clear from the Minister's Estimate speech today what Government policy is in respect of the ESB or any of the areas that he dealt with. He has carried the case no further and we are still getting allusions to the Minister's intentions.

The ESB has given tremendous service to the country over the years. In recent years the balance sheet has improved quite dramatically. Its industrial practices have improved and it has become more efficient. The international consultancy service provided by the ESB is a great success. The company is now in need of clear policy guidelines to allow it to continue to benefit the economy in the last decade of the century. The Minister must not adopt the head-in-sand approach of his ministerial predecessors, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn and Deputy Brennan. The Minister must act and decide policy which will allow the ESB to progress but the policy must be stated in the House or at this Committee because it must be a matter for public scrutiny.

As I have already suggested the Minister inherited his Department from two procrastinating predecessors. He has much work to catch up on but his first major attempt to take action ended in a fiasco. I refer to the rescheduling of telephone charges which the Minister announced recently. The price of a 15 minute local call has been increased by 435 per cent and £29 million of VAT liability has been transferred from Telecom Éireann to its customers. The decision to reduce the cost of international calls was forced on the Minister by impending competition and while costs to businesses who conduct their trade internationally were reduced, those who trade locally were ignored and penalised.

The Minister's decision was ill-thought out, badly executed, misleading and, in the final analysis, mendacious in the manner in which it was conveyed to the public. An attempt was made to pretend that all customers would gain from the rescheduling. Both the Minister and Telecom Éireann advised customers to change their telephone habits and assured them that if they did so their bills would not increase. This advice was given at the same time as the Minister was circulating a balance sheet showing that the new package was based on a calculation that £34 million extra would have to be raised in local call charges or the new programme could not possibly be financed. The advertisements placed by Telecom Éireann in the newspapers were probably illegal because VAT was not included in the charges quoted and when these were subsequently corrected, VAT was included at 16 per cent rather than at 21 per cent which is the rate which will apply when the rescheduling is completed at the start of next year. The Minister should review the schedule of charges before it is too late. There is great customer resistance to the new charges and the Minister will receive a cool reaction when the first bills have to be paid next November.

The Department of Transport, Energy and Communications is the regulatory authority and Telecom Éireann is the service provider. There does not seem to be even Chinese walls between the two now and effectively in my view they play out of the same hand. In public service monopolies the service provider and the regulator should have distinct identities and in circumstances where this is not so, and is not seen to be so, the interests of consumers must be independently protected. Again I call on the Minister to immediately set up a statutory committee mandated to protect the interests of Telecom Éireann's customers. One would normally expect that customers would be protected by the regulatory authority but because of the relationship between the Department and Telecom Éireann this will not and cannot be done. It is high time that the interests of the customers were independently protected by way of a statutory committee.

The future of Telecom Éireann has become a matter of public debate in recent weeks. I believe that Telecom Éireann should remain in State ownership. If there are to be monopolies, State monopolies which are subject to some democratic control are preferable to private monopolies. The recommendations of the Culliton report should be implemented to ensure the highest standards of commercial practice, and competition should be allowed where possible. Telecom Éireann is a large Irish company but it is small by international standards. It needs to enter into partnership arrangements by way of joint venture or technology exchange arrangements with one or more of the major international telecommunications companies. Again, as in respect of the ESB, the Minister must state the policy and do so quickly so that Telecom Éireann can progress.

I wish to turn briefly to the difficulties facing Aer Lingus. This problem, in common with most of the Minister's problems, was inherited from his procrastinating predecessors. Former Minister, Deputy S. Brennan, identified the problem and did nothing. Former Minister, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, agonised about the problem, ranted at the Aer Lingus board and did nothing. The present Minister acted and he must be complimented for at least making an initial decision. This decision however has handed over the future of Aer Lingus to one man who, despite his extensive business experience, has no particular experience of the airline business. It was expected that a report would be on the Minister's desk about three weeks after the appointment of Mr. Cahill as executive chairman but nothing seems to have happened.

The situation has now reached crisis point. Morale in Aer Lingus is being sapped by rumours and counter-rumours which are being fed to newspapers about the future of the company. I do not know who is doing this but if the Minister has any part in it or is in a position to control it, it should cease immediately. It is doing damage and difficulties are being built up within Aer Lingus which could well frustrate the kind of decision necessary to restructure and save the company. In case there is doubt about what I am saying, I do not think the Minister is responsible for the spate of rumours but he should make sure that it ends because it is doing damage among the very people whose co-operation will be absolutely necessary before a package to rescue Aer Lingus can be agreed.

Whatever items are on the list that Mr. Cahill is drawing up for Aer Lingus one thing is certain, it will not work unless the Government provides a substantial amount of equity. The Minister has been tardy in facing this problem and I am not sure if a formal application has yet been made by the Government to the European Commission for such an equity injection or whether an attempt has been made to ensure the use of EC funds for this purpose. Like many other State companies Aer Lingus is a big player at home but it is small in contrast with the international giants. It needs a partner to support and sustain it in the highly competitive and increasingly difficult world aviation industry. The Minister should not allow chauvinistic considerations to inhibit him in following such a route. The airline industry is by its nature international and international partnership arrangements will become the norm in the next few years. Apart from any other measures which the Government may consider necessary to ensure the future of Aer Lingus the finding of an appropriate partner is vital.

Mr. Cahill should have submitted a report by now. The deliberate leaking of information to the media must stop. The Government must make a decision within the next two weeks and in doing so it should remember the contribution made by Aer Lingus to the country and the major benefits its activities have bestowed on both industry and tourism. The Aer Lingus workforce should not be made the victim of two procrastinating Ministers and bad decisions on the part of Aer Lingus's management in recent years. I would like a commercially viable Aer Lingus with a strong international partner providing services of the highest quality in terms of efficiency, frequency and good value to our major trading and tourist locations. This is the objective and it is up to the Minister and the Government to deliver it. The work should have been done two years ago and if it is not done quickly it will be too late.

The question and answer session which follows these statements will provide an opportunity to question the Minister on other aspects of policy. As my time is probably almost up I will defer some of my concerns until then. However, I ask the Minister to comment directly on the Dublin bus strike. It seems to me that this is a disgraceful strike and exactly the situation the Programme for Economic and Social Progress arrangement and the programme with the social partners was supposed to avert. I understand that procedures were worked out by the Minister for Labour in January 1992 and were designed to avoid strikes in essential services. Why did those procedures not operate on this occasion? There are two strikes in CIE, one by the bus drivers on a particular route and another by the craft workers. The craft workers seem to have ignored all procedures and the directions of their own trade union leadership.

I would call at this point on the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to intervene to ensure that full bus services are restored to Dublin. The congress and its leading members are participating fully in the social partner arrangements. It is easy to participate when everything is going right and to take the kudos and bows from a grateful public when social partnership arrangements work. This arrangement is not working at the moment and I believe congress has a responsibility to intervene to ensure that there is not an all-out bus strike in Dublin and that a service is provided for our citizens.

I believe there must be some proportionality between the cause of a strike and the harm which it inflicts on the public. That sense of proportionality has been totally abandoned in this case. There is no proportionality between the difficulties and perceived unfair treatment experienced by a small group of workers and the damage which can be inflicted on a city such as Dublin by an all-out strike. Thank you for your tolerance, Chairman. I will return to some of the issues in the question and answer session.

I wish to state at the outset that I spoke to my colleague, Deputy Clohessy, who represented Deputy Molloy and myself here last week, and his understanding of the procedure which you, Chairman, outlined some time ago was that it was a suggested procedure but had not been fully decided upon. It is something which will continue to pose difficulties for a party with ten Members.

We have agreement between the two convenors. This is a matter which can be pursued by the Deputy's party Whip.

We do not have a convenor, but we will try to deal with——

The Whip can raise the matter with the Government Whip.

I was attending the debate on the Unfair Dismissals Bill at the time and it was not possible for me to be here as well. Chairman, as a member of the Labour Party you should realise the difficulties faced by smaller parties and should ensure that they receive the same accommodation as the major parties. Otherwise, these Committees will not operate in a smooth and satisfactory manner. This is something I would ask you to bear in mind.

Is the Deputy aware that he is entitled to nominate a substitute?

Yes, but that does not solve the problem when it comes to a vote. We need ten Members to call a vote in the other Chamber, as you are well aware, Sir. However, we will try to resolve the matter between the Whips and the convenors.

I agree with one statement which the Minister made here this afternoon when he said that his portfolio is very wide ranging and touches not only the business community but also the day-to-day lives of ordinary people. Almost all areas for which the Minister is responsible have been in the news recently, and it seems that the semi-State and commercial semi-State companies will continue to be in the news into the medium term future. I do not detect anything in the Minister's contribution which indicates the outline of a clear policy direction for many of these companies for which he is responsible. I will discuss in turn some of these issues today.

First, the difficulties of Aer Lingus are a long way from being resolved and I think the Government faces similar problems with regard to the future of a number of State companies. My party and I are deeply concerned by the fact that, to date, with regard to the State companies, one half of the Government immediately rules out possible privatisation and partnerships from an ideological point of view. That is not a satisfactory way for decisions to be made or influenced. It is clear that if we are to remain full partners within the EC and to fully embody its spirit, which is underwritten by competition at all levels, there will have to be substantial changes within the State companies.

The management and workers of these companies and this Government should have the courage to approach these difficulties, recognise them for what they are, face up to the challenges which lie ahead and put all of the options on the table, including selling part ownership in some of these companies if it is deemed to be the best way forward. In my view, if this had been done within Aer Lingus four or five years ago, the company would not be in this position today. While other substantially larger and more financially viable airline companies throughout the world were seeking partners, joint ventures and shareholdings in each other companies, we were afraid to do anything with regard to Aer Lingus in case it was seen as selling the family silver. There is not much family silver left and many of these semi-State companies would now not amount to much more than very poor quality plated silver because we failed to make decisions in the last number of years. It is now time to take some serious decisions to rectify this situation and put on the table what we want for Aer Lingus in the future.

In my view, Aer Lingus is the equivalent of a regional airline in many larger countries. If its future is, for domestic reasons, to be primarily concerned with the type of access transport required by this economy, then it should be treated in that context, rather than pretending to be the equal of Lufthansa or United Airlines. Its scale of operation, staffing, financial packaging, direction and policy outline should be based on guidelines which are realistic in the context of where that company is going and the type of service it can deliver.

This is not in any way to demean the achievements of Aer Lingus or to suggest that it should shrink into something small and unnecessary. I am saying that Aer Lingus has a future; but in my view it is clear that, irrespective of how much State equity is put into the company, it has no future on its own. It will have to form a partnership with another one to three airlines, depending on the direction in which it sees itself going. I do not know if that will mean selling part of the shareholding within the Aer Lingus company itself or operating under a new joint venture company, but we should not be afraid to put all those options on the table so as to ensure that the best possible decisions are reached.

The Government and the various Ministers responsible for State companies have a worrying tendency to hand problems back to the boards of management of the companies involved for a decision to be made, as if to say that the Government, as a substantial shareholder, has no involvement. That is not acceptable. There are huge political decisions hanging over these companies which must be faced up to and the Government cannot let the commercial decision be made by the board of management and somehow hope to ride into the sunset afterwards with no responsibility.

Decisions are not being taken in these companies because they are uncertain about their future due to the failure of the Government to answer political questions. They hear one half of the Government saying one thing and the other half saying something else. How can real, commercial, sound, business based decisions be made in these circumstances? Until these realities are faced up to they will continue to contribute to the problems.

When the Labour Party was in Opposition it regularly called for the Government to take legal action against the continuance of various activities which occurred over recent years. Now that they are in Government we only seem to hear the old, worn out ideological ideals about where they are going. I believe that the Minister should make it clear very quickly to the board of management in Aer Lingus that all options for its future can be considered and that he will support the company in his final decision. It should be made clear if the company can examine and recommend the option of forming a joint venture or the sale of shares in the company. That should be stated for the benefit of both the workers and management so that everybody is aware of the future possibilities.

I am also worried that we are not developing the regional airports. They were hailed by the Minister's Department and the Department of Tourism and Trade as a major factor in the future provision of airline services in this country. A sum of £1,000 is provided for regional airports in the current Estimates. That is a nonsensical figure and does not provide the required commitment from the Government.

The problems of Dublin Bus and CIE in general are not addressed by the Minister. He made no reference to the bus competition Bill which the Taoiseach indicated was still under consideration by the present Government. The current strike at Dublin Bus is having a major effect on commuters and will impact on jobs as it prevents the ordinary person from going about his daily business. The Minister for Enterprise and Employment has not shown any inclination to intervene. That is very disappointing. There is an onus on him to intervene as, being a Labour Party Minister, he could give the right signals to the unions involved. I ask the Minister to talk to his colleagues because he must be deeply concerned about the future of Dublin Bus and the current situation there.

The issue of public transport is not addressed in the Minister's speech. He referred to the DTI interim report and the fact that he is awaiting the final report. The DTI deals specifically with transport in Dublin and not with public transport throughout the country. If the Minister is serious in his intention to provide a first class public transport system, as is available in many other countries, then there must be a role for the private sector in that system. In every other country in Europe the private sector is involved in the provision of public road and rail transport. Why can we not introduce similar competition here? Such competition will benefit the consumer and reduce the burden on the taxpayer of huge subventions to State companies. Over £1 billion was given to the CIE group in the last ten years. Surely we should be trying to reduce that burden. There are substantial amounts of money available in the private sector for investment in public transport but the private sector is prevented from making such investments. In spite of the hopeless legislative situation we have seen substantial development of bus and coach transport by the private sector.

The chairman of the ESB said that he envisaged competition coming from people generating power privately who would sell it to the ESB. That is not competition; even if the ESB is divided into five separate companies with some private sector competition, the ESB would still be in control. If the Minister is serious about creating the competition advocated by the EC the distribution of the electricity should be carried out by a separate company. It should remain under State control and other areas should be open to competition. Such competition would be to the benefit of consumers. However, dividing the ESB into five separate companies and selling this to the public and the EC as progress towards real competition is codswallop. The Minister and I know that; I suspect the ESB would be happy with such an arrangement but it will not create competition. The Minister is not facing up to the realities of the EC. He has not outlined a policy direction because he will not answer the real questions that are being asked of him and of this Government.

Could the Minister inform us of the total cost of the gas interconnector? What is the total expenditure to date? What EC receipts have been received to date? How is Bord Gáis arranging the funding for the pipeline? Are private investors involved in that funding? How much has BGE borrowed and on what terms?

I welcome the plans for the electricity interconnector. It should have happened some time ago. The more links we have with other countries for these resources, the more consistent will the supply be. As a result the economic climate and jobs that are dependent on those resources will be more stable. There is also the possibility of creating more jobs.

I do not think the Minister referred to the Whitegate oil refinery. The Culliton report made major proposals regarding the removal of the mandatory purchase of oil from that refinery. Is it proposed to invest in the upgrading of the refinery? How much will it cost to enable Whitegate to produce a modern product that meets new environment requirements while competing on the open market? I heard that a sum of between £80 million and £150 million would be required to achieve the satisfactory upgrading of Whitegate. Perhaps the Minister would discuss the matter.

The Minister, in his opening statement, took us on a lengthy tour of his responsibilities and they are, indeed, wide-ranging. Unfortunately we did not learn a great deal that is new and I regret that he did not make clear policy statements on at least some of his many responsibilities. Perhaps he will do that during the question and answer session.

I differ with the approach advocated by my colleague, Deputy Cullen. Talk about competition and privatisation — although I do not think Deputy Cullen mentioned privatisation on this occasion — has run its course and it should be seriously questioned. Many of the difficulties, for example, that Aer Lingus is now facing are due to the way in which competition has operated in this country. Companies like Aer Lingus are facing difficulties resulting from competition and liberalisation, both on a world wide basis and at an EC level. The operation of competition in the airline industry in this country has also created difficulties, where five airline companies are competing for what is in international terms a very small slice of airline business. The way in which competition has operated between Ryanair and Aer Lingus could hardly be said to be fair competition at all, since one of the Minister's predecessors took the opportunity of preventing Aer Lingus from competing on fair terms with Ryanair and it may well be argued that this in itself has contributed to some of the difficulties that Aer Lingus is now experiencing.

All of the Minister's responsibilities in the areas of transport, energy, and telecomunications are now confronted by a very serious threat from the operation of EC competition and liberalisation policy. All of those areas are critical to the development of our economy. About 12 months ago we had a debate in this country about our future within the European Community. It is a matter of regret to me that the economic implications of European Union for this country were not discussed in greater depth at that time.

The Minister referred in his remarks about Aer Lingus to his discussion with Commissioner Van Miert, but he should take the opportunity of setting out for us the Government's position in relation to the continuing move towards unfettered competition and liberalisation in the EC area as it affects the Minister's various areas of responsibility. In each area the difficulties with which we are faced are caused by problems, many of which originate from the operation of EC policy. It can be argued that the problem within Aer Lingus, the recent decision to restructure the ESB, and the telecommunications issue result from the operation of EC policy.

Apart from the domestic decisions which must be taken in response to EC policy, the Minister should give some indication of the Government's policy in relation to discussions which are taking place at EC level in those areas. Our situation is different to many of the other European countries in that we are a peripheral country and competition will not necessarily have the same effects in Ireland that it has in other EC countries.

The Government has not yet developed an aviation policy. We do not know the Government's position on Aer Lingus. Six months ago we were told that Aer Lingus had only a matter of weeks to produce a recovery plan. That has now been commuted to a reference to a strategy. We are still none the wiser as to when that strategy will be agreed, or to what extent the Government will expect that strategy to contain detail about the future of Aer Lingus, the size of its employment complement and what equity, if any, the company is to receive. The Minister is effectively telling us that the Government has not made any decision on this yet. I find that difficult to believe. If find it difficult to believe that in his discussions with the chairman of Aer Lingus, Mr. Cahill, the Minister has not indicated some approximate figure for the equity, and that important decisions in relation to Aer Lingus have not already been made. The only people who have not been given this information are the staff in Aer Lingus, who are understandably quite disturbed at the fact that six months ago they were told that the recovery plan had to be agreed in a matter of weeks, whereas now it appears that there is no urgency in arriving at a decision.

The decision to rebalance telephone charges has been debated extensively in the House, but there are a number of aspects to that decision which require further clarification. One of them is the position of the promised review. I am not clear whether the Government intends to review the decision to rebalance telephone charges or whether the decision is immutable. You, Chairman, have expressed the opinion that there should be a review; and some of your colleagues in your own party, including Government Ministers, have stated that there should be a review of the telephone charges. The Minister appears to be saying that there will not be a review. The public needs to know whether the telephone charges announced a couple of weeks ago are now finalised, or whether there will be a review of them.

An announcement was made in relation to voluntary bodies and the operation of helplines. The Minister announced that Telecom Éireann would make £0.5 million available to enable helplines to provide free telephone services. Members of voluntary bodies who are operating these helpline services have been in contact with me and they have made it quite clear that £0.5 million will not enable them to provide a free telephone service. They make the point that the operations of these helpline services are driven entirely by the caller, who may be a person in considerable distress and who may spend a very long time on the telephone. A typical call to organisations like The Samaritans might take half an hour or much longer, depending on the nature of the distress that the caller is in. All of these calls will be charged to the organisation providing the service. The Samaritans alone receive in the region of 200,000 calls per annum. If any significant number of those are of considerable duration — and people in distress are unlikely to wait until after 6 p.m. or until the weekend to make their calls — then those organisations now providing helpline services will have very large telephone bills at the end of the year and the £0.5 million set aside for them will not be sufficient to meet their needs.

Certain individuals will also find themselves in difficulties, and no provision has been made for this. I spoke to a woman today who has a 17 year-old son who is deaf and who uses a minicom on the telephone. He types his conservations and the person whom he is calling types the reply. That kind of communication cannot be completed within the space of three minutes. There are many other similar cases of individuals using the telephone service who have special needs and who have not yet been given any attention. Whether or not a review of the change in telephone charges is carried out, and I hope it will be, special consideration needs to be given to these individual cases.

The Minister in his contribution made reference to the profits being made by An Post. I welcome the fact that An Post have made a profit. He also made a passing reference to discussions which are taking place between the management and the unions in An Post regarding restructuring. It has been widely reported that this will involve a reduction in jobs in An Post of 400.

It seems to me that we have a very glib approach in this country towards the reduction in employment in State companies. Whether 400 jobs are being lost in An Post, in a factory in Galway or wherever, there are still 400 people who will be without work. There needs to be a clear statement from the Minister on employment levels in An Post. To what extent is he committed to maintaining employment levels, not just in An Post but in the other State organisations as well? There is much talk about the need to provide employment — the Culliton reports were referred to earlier — and we hear a great deal about various initiatives and schemes that can be used to create employment. I believe we need to give a great deal more attention to the need to protect employment, in particular in companies like Aer Lingus, An Post and Telecom Éireann — those companies which are directly under the Minister's control. It will take a long time to create such employment as could be lost in these companies.

Part of his communications portfolio which I would like the Minister to comment on in his response is the provision of cable television and the problems now evident, particularly in the Dublin area, in relation to it. Since the beginning of this year there has been a row going on between Cablelink, some of the companies that have been supplying Cablelink with service and the Minister's Department. My understanding of the situation is that Cablelink have applied to the Minister for permission to run advertisements in order to pay for the services which they could get from Sky and various other companies. Apparently the Minister has not made any decision on this yet. I would like him to indicate when he is going to make a decision and perhaps give us some indication what that decision might be. If he intends to decide to allow Cablelink to run ads on their services, I would like him to address the possible implications that might have for another State company, RTE. The broadcasting legislation lifting the cap on RTE's advertising revenue has already gone through the Dáil. Some people I have spoken to have suggested that a decision by the Minister to allow Cablelink to broadcast advertisements could have a far more adverse effect on RTE's revenue than the operation of the cap. I would like the Minister to address this matter. I know it is difficult, but it should be responded to.

The question of the ESB's restructuring and the application it has made for an increase in its charges has already been referred to. I was involved in the exchange with the Minister last week at Question Time over the ESB charges and the application it made to his predecessor over a year ago for an increase. Judging by the response the Minister gave, where he reminded us that the ESB had not increased its charges since 1986, it struck me that the Minister was as good as telling us that he intends to grant the increase the ESB is seeking. Rather than being coy about that, he should make a clear statement on it today. The consumers who have been hit in recent months by various increases and charges, including an increase in hospital charges, a 1 per cent levy on their incomes and an increase in their telephone charges, should at least know, if for no reason other than to help them with their family budgeting, whether they will be faced with an increase in ESB charges and, if so, what the cost of that is going to be.

Finally, I want to refer to the Dublin Bus dispute. The Minister for Enterprise and Employment told the Dáil earlier today that he intends to intervene in this dispute, albeit through the agencies of the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court. We should look back to the industrial relations legislation which the Oireachtas passed a couple of years ago. We were told that this legislation was going to greatly improve the industrial relations climate in this country. I was one of a number of Members of the House who made the point when that industrial relations legislation was brought forward that the aspect of it relating to the sanctioning of industrial disputes by trade unions was far more likely to lead to unofficial disputes than anything else. The craftworkers' decision today bears out that prediction.

As a result of the industrial relations legislation, trade unions are now much more handicapped in the extent to which they can give directions to their members than previously. We are now seeing in Dublin Bus the difficulty that the most recent Industrial Relations Act is causing. I hope that the intervention by the Minister, Deputy Quinn, will have some effect in bringing about a resolution of the dispute and a back to work formula before the travelling public in this city are further discommoded and the economy of the city is brought to a halt.

It has already been agreed to discuss the Estimate programme by programme. I am requesting the committee to take subhead A.4 with programme 5 on communications and subhead A.9 with civil aviation. I believe that would be a more efficient way of dealing with the overall Estimate. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I ask the Minister not to respond to questions in the opening statements until discussion of the appropriate programmes.

On subhead A.1, can the Minister comment on the possible effects of the serving of strike notice by the CPSU on the work of his Department and on the circumstances leading to the strike by lower paid civil servants throughout the public service?

Are there any further questions under subheads A.1, A.2 or A.3?

Perhaps a statement from the Minister would have a beneficial effect on the trade unions in the public service. They are intelligent men and women and in the last four or five years there have been excellent industrial relations in the public service. The recent hiccups are only temporary and I am confident that relations will soon be back on the rails. I believe that a statement from the Minister to the unions concerned would have a good effect. They are understanding people and are well aware of the economic difficulties of the country. I believe they would respond accordingly to a clearcut, simple and direct statement from the Minister.

Are there any further questions on the remaining subheads in that programme, subheads A.5, A.6, A.7 and A.8?

On subhead A.7, the provision for consultancy has gone up by 86 per cent to £881,000. I would like the Minister to explain the necessity for this increase. Can he inform us of the procedures before consultants are appointed? Are they simply chosen by the Minister from those he considers most suitable to carry out a piece of research, or is there some kind of tendering process? Is the provision used totally for what we would regard as the bringing in of expertise on a contractual basis, or is some of the money used for special advisers on a quasi-permanent basis?

Subhead A.4 on postal telecommunication services shows a reduction of 10 per cent on the 1993——

I asked that we would take that under communications.

On subhead A.6, there is an increase of about 100 per cent and I would like to get an explanation for that.

In relation to the CPSU, that is a matter for the Department of Finance and the public service and I do not wish to speculate in relation to that matter at this stage.

On the precise question as to how it will affect the Minister's own Department——

The Minister, without interruption, please. I will allow you in for a supplementary, Deputy Noonan.

It is relevant under subhead A.1.

I will allow a supplementary question. We should allow the Minister to conclude and if there is a supplementary question to be asked I will allow it.

Obviously, an all out picket of those members of that union would cause disruption and difficulties, in particular among typists and clerical staff. Quite clearly that would be an unwelcome development. The Department would continue its operations as best it could in those circumstances. At the end of the day it is a matter primarily to be directed to the Minister for Finance and the public service.

In the Estimates, consultancy is allocated £881,000, slightly less than £400,000 of which has already been contracted. The provisional expenditure in 1992, of £473,000, was less than expected. The consultancies are needed where issues are complex and in-house expertise is not available. In-house expertise is being built up through increased training, especially in the financial area. As regards the methodology by which consultants are appointed, the full tendering process applies and normally at least three are sought. The prior authorisation of the Minister for Finance is required. There are some small exceptions where the consultancies would be below £5,000.

Deputy Sheehan raised a question in relation to office premises expenses. The 1993 Estimates include expenditure associated with the requirements of the Health and Safety Act. Provision is also being made for major reorganisation requirements arising from the amalgamation of the former Department of Transport and Communications and the Department of Energy. That is the basis on which that increase is there.

Do I take it that new offices have been created?

I have created no new offices, you will be glad to hear.

What about the existing ones?

I am in the existing office. The staff of the Department of Energy are still in the Department of Energy and the staff of the Department of Transport are still in that Department and the Communications people are still in situalso. There has been no overall reintegration of the Department in physical terms.

On subhead A.1, how many staff in the grades affected by the industrial dispute are employed in the Minister's Department?

About 100 people.

What is the total complement of the Minister's Department?

One thousand, including air traffic control, the Air Navigation Services Office and people like that.

The Minister did not answer the question on consultancy. Is it a question of expertise which is not available in-house being brought in as it is required or have you consultants on a quasi-permanent basis advising you over a series of issues?

No, it is basically in-house. Mr. Joe Jennings is working with me full time and is operating out of that Estimate also.

Is that out of that subhead?

Could the Minister tell us at the moment what the various consultants are doing?

The intended ones would be as follows: examination of travel grant applications, £24,000; Aer Lingus study, £25,000; strategic planning in the organisation and development section, £30,000; ESB restructuring, £64,000; Whitegate and Whiddy, £25,000; offshore exploration, £60,000; assessment of mining leases, £70,000; applied geological projects, £75,000; technical groups in relation to the gas industry, £40,000; pilot action combined transport study and light rail study in connection with the proposed Dublin Transport Initiative, £200,000. There is an Eolas examination of telecommunications equipment, £20,000 and in the road haulage section there is tachograph testing in Eolas, £23,000. Those are the areas involved.

The Minister mentioned £25,000 for a study of Aer Lingus. How does that connect with Mr. Cahill's role?

That is not in relation to his direct employment.

It is not committed expenditure. It is expenditure which has been put in provisionally in the event of it being required, particularly on the financial situation.

Are there any proposals for the decentralisation of any part of the Minister's Department? In view of the setting up of a new semi-State body, would there be any proposal that this would be located other than in Dublin, which already has a huge proportion of the related office jobs? It always seemed rather strange to me that the headquarters, for example, of Bord na Mona, a midlands based company, have been here in the city rather than where the action has been. From my own experience there is no problem running any organisation from its location rather than from centralised places.

It will come as no great surprise that I am opposed to the continuation of decentralisation. I was a member of a Government which encouraged decentralisation and was involved in a very active policy of decentralisation in two different phases. I believe that we have reached a stage where it is time to call a halt. The economy in the greater Dublin area is at rock bottom. We have a situation where we have the largest unemployment of any area in the country with no possibility or real hope of improving the numbers of unemployed we have, as well as no provision in the number of jobs that we want——

Deputy Burke, we are now at questions, the statements have already been made.

Can we have a recess for these difficulties or are they going to be privatised as well?

It is a very serious matter. Could I ask——

I am not disputing that it is a very serious matter, Deputy but this is a question and answer session now.

When considering any placement of offices in his Department or in any of the semi-State bodies, would the Minister make the various officials and decision makers aware of the needs of the people of Dublin for employment in the greater Dublin area?

I would like to support the request made by Deputy Ó Cuív. I can see no justification whatsoever for Dublin having the perogative over any other part of the country as far as Government offices and Departments are concerned. We must realise that people are vanishing completely from three-quarters of this country while Dublin and the eastern area generally is over-populated. If, as Deputy Burke said, there is a problem of too much unemployment in Dublin, we, too, have the problem with vast unemployment——

Could I ask you what the question is, please?

We should get our share of the cake in rural Ireland. It is high time that decentralisation took place more rapidly than it is taking at the moment.

We will move Leinster House to Union Hall.

Decentralisation is a matter that is under continuing review in all Departments. The efficacy of the location of headquarters or administrative staff is something that at the end of the day is based on supply and demand as well as what is in the best interests of the overall running of (a) the Department or (b) any semi-State body. I am glad to note that Bord na Móna has latched on to the need to locate in an area that might be near its core operations. The board has moved one section to Newbridge, another to the Boora milled peat works and another section to Portlaoise, so they are not the worst offenders.

May I move on to programme No. 2? We will take questions on energy.

May I congratulate the Minister on the initiatives he is taking on the Sellafield situation and the general question of the THORP extension there? The fact that he had made a strong case against THORP to the UK government is a matter for congratulation and perhaps the Minister would like to elaborate on this issue. I would also like to comment on the gas interconnector which I believe is a major step forward for the Irish economy. Could the Minister give us an update on the present contract, as well as when he anticipates the pipeline will come into operation. In relation to the electricity situation, I note that the Government has made some changes in the structure of the ESB. I know the Minister intends to elaborate on this at a later stage on legislation, but could I ask him if it would not have been better to have provided for an electricity interconnector at this stage rather the construction of a new power station? Also, if the new power station was to be sanctioned, which has happened, would it be a good idea to go ahead with the interconnector anyway for peak demand periods? I would also like to ask the Minister how our oil exploration programme is going this year.

On the energy side, I wonder if the Minister could give us any indication of his thinking about the situation of the Allenwood power station. There is a great deal of uncertainty and a great many people would like to know what its future may be. On a more general note I would like to invite the Minister to comment on the difference in emphasis between the Moriarty task force conclusions about the idea of building a new peat-fired electricity generating station and the Government's comments on it. I am sure the Minister is familiar with what the Moriarty group said. It appears on page 16 of the Government's report on the Moriarty report on the Culliton report. I would like to have a report on the report on the report on the report, if the Minister could see his way to giving us that. In fact, the Moriarty group was very hesitant on it, and I will quote from it:

If new investment does not, in fact, reduce costs, it would be most ill-advised and should not proceed. There is a need for a detailed evaluation of the whole issue.

That seems to me to indicate that the Moriarty group had, at the very least, some reservations about this proposal. The Government statement on this, which appears on page 17 of the report on the report on the report, is much more upbeat and talks about the importance of peat as "possibly the only significant indigenous fuel after the turn of the century". That seems to indicate that the Minister believes we will have run out of gas reserves at that stage, and that we will have no other fossil fuel reserves. The Minister talks about an appraisal being carried out in rather upbeat terms and, of course, that links in with the matter of the Allenwood power station.

I suppose it is no accident that the suggestions made by Bord na Móna about a peat-fired power station are very sagaciously couched in terms of building it somewhere on the Kildare-Offaly border, which leaves the Minister with a particularly saucy little condiment to deal with. I would like to know what the state of progress is on the examination of that project and if the Minister could comment on the difference in emphasis between the Moriarty group's conclusions on it and the Government's conclusions.

On subhead B.9, which deals with the farm electrification grant system, I see that the provision for 1993 is exactly the same as the provisional out-turn for 1992 at £250,000, which is not a huge sum. As far as I am aware, there is a huge volume of pent-up demand in the south-west, including counties Kerry and Cork in particular, as well as in Galway and Mayo, and I think also in County Donegal. Quite a number of applications for grants under that scheme are being held up for no other reason, apparently, than that the scheme is basically under-provided for. The old rationing system is being used where the Government just does not release the money and it takes a long time to deal with applications. There is not a great deal more work to be done under that scheme and I would like to ask would the Minister give some consideration to speeding up the work and getting that particular problem solved once and for all. It is causing difficulties that really could be avoided if a reasonable effort were made.

I, too, would like to raise the Sellafield issue and to suggest that the operation of the Sellafield nuclear reprocessing plant poses one of the greatest threats to the health and safety of our people and, indeed, to our natural environment. The Minister is obviously aware of the plans to construct the THORP plant and I would like to congratulate him on his submission. Shortly after he came into office he was asked to make a submission on behalf of the Irish people in relation to the THORP plant and the statutory authorities in the UK began the consultation process to bring about the discharge licences by the inspectorate of pollution in the UK. I and many other people throughout the country made known our objections to the granting of discharge licences and authorisations for the THORP plant and associated activities. What is the current position? Will a public inquiry be held? That should be a fundamental demand. Is there a realistic expectation of preventing these discharge licences? Will adequate consultation take place and will Irish views be taken into account? Could we ultimately prevent commissioning of the THORP plant? I would be grateful if the Minister could expand on that matter.

In relation to the THORP issue raised by Deputy Burke and Deputy Haughey, I thank them for their support for the Government. All sides of the House appear to concur with our outright opposition to the THORP plant. In our submission we suggested that at a minimum there should be an inquiry into this matter. We have stated our opposition to its continuance but a public inquiry is our basic request to the British Government. Those exhortations and representations continue unabated.

The gas interconnector has proceeded well and has been professionally and competently executed. It is now nearing completion. It is a major infrastructural project which is on target and within budget. I went to see the laying of the pipeline on the Irish Sea seabed. It is a quite extraordinary engineering feat. The world record for laying 24-inch diameter gas pipes was broken on a number of occasions by the pipelaying company. Regardless of weather conditions, over six kilometres of pipe were welded and laid per day. It is remarkable to see how it is done. I compliment Bord Gáis Éireann and those working on the project for the excellence of the work. It is on target and one hopes by the end of the year it will be officially completed and launched.

This point dovetails with Deputy Dukes's question about peat, its place in our energy policy and whether it will become our only indigenous fuel in the future, perhaps by the end of the century. On the data available, it is felt the Kinsale and Ballycotton gas fields will be depleted on the basis of existing demand. Therefore an interconnector is necessary to maintain security of supply and to ensure the much improved gas system, expanded since the Kinsale find, will be protected and continue to be utilised to maximum efficiency. There is also the question of improved licensing terms. Minister Treacy will deal with that question, specifically in relation to oil exploration.

Should those much improved licensing terms bring about further finds of gas offshore, as hoped, we could become net exporters of gas through the pipeline, depending on the quality of the find. Alternatively, in the event that no further finds are made, the pipeline allows us to import gas and maintain the system we have developed and invested in for some years.

I take Deputy Dukes's point about the Government's position on peat. I am a Minister with responsibility for energy who is aware of the importance of peat to the midland economy. It is necessary to ensure this indigenous resource continues to play a strategic role in our energy policy. Currently peat-fired electricity generation contributes about 14 per cent of supplies to the national grid. I disagree with the prospects given in the Moriarty report for a new peat-fired station. I am au fait with the progress of the feasibility study. The new technology available makes peat-fired electricity generation a far more economic prospect with new plant than with the existing plant, given the factors of structure and design life. I do not accept the contention implying that peat is an uneconomic source of energy production. It is not. If the significant productivity gains made at severe cost by Bord na Móna are allied to the new technology, the price of peat-generated electricity is more economic than one would be led to believe by experts. The problem is that one must consider Bord na Móna’s continuing debt.

I am trying to identify the subsidy element in the ESB price to Bord na Móna, make the transparent and attack that. The subsidy element can then be used to reduce the debts. Over a period of years Bord na Móna will be relieved of a large portion of that debt, the ESB will not be obliged to provide a subsidy ad infinitum and the peat industry will be allowed compete effectively with other sources of energy. Since peat may become the only indigenous fuel it is in the national interest to follow that course and return the industry to a healthy state.

I am glad Deputy Dukes asked about the Allenwood power station. I presume if he shared the doubts about the efficacy of a new peat-fired station he would not call for the continued existence of Allenwood. Therefore I assume he would accept there must be a future for new peat-fired stations, given the technology available. I am aware of what is happening in Allenwood. That area has suffered from the closure of the Lullymore briquette factory. Allenwood is an old station and its design life has been passed but it would not be unique in that regard. I have received a report from the ESB requesting its immediate closure. Bord na Móna have been involved in supplying the station from sod peat bogs on the understanding it would be reopened. My technical advisers in the Department have completed their assessment and I must now consider that the advice the Government. I am mindful of the part the industry plays in the north Kildare-north-west Offaly region and I will consider that before making my decision.

On the farm electrification scheme, grant aid towards the cost of installing and upgrading supply on farms in disadvantaged areas has been provided for more than a decade under the original EC funded FEOGA western aid programme and latterly under the Exchequer funded farm electrification grant scheme. While this scheme has played a valuable role in the past in developing the agricultural industry at national and international levels, its relevance today is less clear. Most farms now have electricity supplies. In 1992 just under 500 installations were completed. When the present scheme was introduced in 1990 an allocation of £500,000 was available to grant aid the cost of completions. Budgetary restraints have reduced that figure in 1992-93 to £150,000. I have taken into account the constraints imposed by the budgetary allocations and I am considering the future options for the scheme.

Two desk studies on the technical and economic viability of an electricity interconnector with the United Kingdom were undertaken in 1991. The study group revised earlier findings of a 1986 investigation on interconnection. The group concluded that a link is technically feasible, that the economic benefit would be unattractive without EC financial support, that further studies on the feasibility of the project would need to be carried out and that an accurate estimate of the undersea cable costs would need to be obtained as part of the feasibility study.

Security considerations are delaying the prospect of re-establishing the North-South interconnector. The situation is reviewed from time to time. The last review was carried out in 1991 and it concluded that the restoration of the interconnector was not an option because of continued risk to personnel and probable destruction of supply. However, the benefits of interconnection to both electricity utilities would be achieved by combining spinning reserves and fuel cost savings due to pooling and trading of electricity. This is a matter which should be resolved as soon as security and other considerations allow us to do so.

Deputy Dukes has a supplementary question to ask the Minister.

I admire the Minister's footwork. He answered my question about Allenwood by asking another question. We still do not know what the Minister thinks about that situation. If the Minister is optimistic about the economics of the new technology of peat-fired generation, would he not consider it reasonable to keep the current station at Allenwood in operation until a new station is built in that area? The site of the Lullymore briquette factory is a logical site to build on. It is close to Edenderry and it also has the advantage of being in my constituency. It would make sense to keep the Allenwood plant in operation until the new plant is built.

Perhaps the Minister could specify the debt situation of Bord na Móna. The Minister said he was concerned to identify the subsidy element in the price which the ESB pays Bord na Móna for peat. I understand that this is in the context of the economics of the new technology. However, once that subsidy element has been identified, it would be allocated to reduce the debt in Bord na Móna. Although the Minister is concerned to identify a subsidy element, will he continue to allow the ESB to pay the same price that it is paying now? Will he also allow Bord na Móna to charge a price for peat in excess of the cost of production under the new technology and use the different between the cost of production and that price to reduce the debt in Bord an Móna? This is an interesting matter and I would like to have time to cogitate on it. This creative accounting would be worth considering in other areas.

The subsidy element is identifiable. However, the question is to what extent is the subsidy element being used for debt reduction as distinct from other operations in Bord na Móna? There is a need to divisionalise the company so that there are stand alone operations. The debt and subsidy element can then be identified. We need to improve the image of peat and make it more competitive. Bord na Móna has done more than other semi-State companies to achieve competitiveness, to improve productivity and to deal with the serious problems which have faced it over the past number of years. It must continue to do so.

It is not in the interests of the peat or electricity industry to maintain the subsidy element ad infinitum. Therefore it is necessary to identity the best means to restructure and reduce the debt. One of the best ways to do this is to ensure that a large part of the subsidy element goes towards the reduction of debt and that the other operating costs involved in the company are reduced to ensure that the company continues to operate profitably or on a break even basis. This is a challenge which faces Bord na Móna. Bord na Móna is doing all it can to improve the situation. It is time for the Government to see how it can lighten the burden of debt on this company.

There is a choice to be made in relation to peat-fired stations. Deputy Noonan (Limerick East) in his speech referred to the extra cost which the Moriarty Task Force and the Culliton report identified. If the Fine Gael Party do not wish to support peat-fired stations in the midlands, that is acceptable; it is a valid political position to take. But if that is their position, I would like to hear it, apart from accusing me of stepping round the daisies.

The Government must understand the strategic importance of the peat industry, not only to the economy of the midlands but also to the national economy. It must address the debt situation which is hindering the development of Bord na Móna. By so doing the Government will perhaps over a number of years ensure that the company can compete on the open market with other fuels.

If the new peat-fired generation station is a feasible option, the peat industry's future will be secured. If we are not prepared to invest in peat-fired generation, peat-fired stations will have no long term future in our energy portfolio. I am not prepared to accept that. The Government's decision relating to the Moriarty Task Force and the Culliton report reflects that view, and I make no apologies to Mr. Culliton or to Mr. Moriarty about that.

I acknowledge that the peat industry must in the long term be a competitive one and the industry is doing everything possible to achieve this. If peat-fired stations are a feasible option they should be considered, because peat will be the only indigenous fossil fuel available at the end of the century. Otherwise, we will have to import all our energy fuels and the design of our peat-fired stations, including Allenwood, will be outdated.

I sympathise with Deputy Dukes's position in relation to the proposed decision about Allenwood which I have to take and on which I must advise the Government. I understand the role that it plays in that part of the country. I also have to take cognisance of the safety aspect. This technical area has to be fully evaluated and taken into the equation in coming to a decision. I am trying to outline to him not what the decision is, since that decision has not yet been taken, but my thinking and the criteria that I would use in coming to that decision.

(Interruptions.)

I would remind the Deputies and the Minister that we are now on questions and answers. The statements have been made and I ask you to confine yourselves to the questions. We have four more items to go through and we have not yet completed the second. If you wish to adjourn and return tomorrow that is a matter for yourselves. I would ask you to co-operate so that we can get through the agenda. We have six more speakers and I will take them in two groups of three.

May I briefly respond on the subject of oil exploration before we proceed any further. There are 16 leases covering 29 blocks held by Marathon or Marathon and partners. There are 22 full or part blocks which are currently held under seven exploration licences. The main participants are Aran Energy, Mobil North Sea, Bula Oil, Atlantic Resources, Enterprise and BHP Petroleum. There are nine licensing options covering 33 full or part blocks which are held by five companies or partnerships. Mobil, who are partners with Aran Energy in the recently awarded exploration licence 1/93 in the north Celtic Sea, plan to drill a well in block 50/12 in June and July of this year. This is the third well to be drilled in this block. Marathon will drill the Cork prospect in block 48/28 in mid June. Marathon's partners for this operation are Esso and Amoco. Marathon will also drill a second well off the Wexford-Waterford coast. This makes a total of three wells to be drilled this year compared with two wells last year and one well in 1991.

I have a question on subhead B.5 in connection with the monitoring of radiation in the environment. Has the Minister's Department, or the institute under his Department, the expertise to monitor electromagnetic radiation particularly where there are high tension cables which have created much anxiety of late?

In my constituency there is an area where there is a concentration of high tension wires associated with the line coming from Moneypoint. Unfortunately, the problem has been compounded by the installation of a transmitter which got the full support of a predecessor of the Minister, Deputy R. Burke. At that time it was not subject to an environmental impact study which would be required today. Has the institute the necessary expertise and would the Minister be prepared to have the levels of radiation measured in that area. I can supply exact details but I am sure Deputy R. Burke would be able to give them to the Minister, even though the Deputy would not come down to visit the area when we wanted.

I do not remember being asked.

I appreciate that there are two schools of thought on this matter. There are those who say there is no problem and those who say there is a serious problem. However, there is a lot of anxiety and we do not want a pattern of effects being established in ten or 15 years' time. A number of questions have been asked as a result of births in the area and although one cannot say definitely that the high tension cables have had any bearing on the matter, it has caused much concern.

I am not aware of any study that has been done in this country yet, but in view of the fact that this institute has been set up and there have been improvements in the information being made available, I ask the Minister to consider that aspect of radiation. There are other forms of radiation which are monitored but I would like to see electromagnetic radiation monitored so that we might be advised over the next year or so if there is a serious problem and try to allay people's fears, not just in the area that I mentioned but in others where there is concern.

May I ask the Minister — and I am sure this is a question which will be of interest to the Chairman — under subhead B.4, about the continuing operation of the refinery at Whitegate? Under subhead A.7 — Consultancy Services — the Minister referred to some moneys which are being spent on Whitegate. Would the Minister give me some information on that? The Government decision on the Moriarty Task Force was that: "The mandatory off-take will be ended as recommended." That does not quite clarify the position because the recommendation was as follows, and I quote:

The mandatory off-take of petrol products from Whitegate should be reviewed. Unless there is a credible proposal to upgrade the refinery so that it can operate as a fully commercial undertaking . . . within a reasonable period of time and certainly by 31 December 1996, a decision should be taken to end the mandatory off-take regime immediately.

May I ask if it is now the case that the Government will not proceed with proposals to upgrade the refinery and that a decision has been taken in this regard. On that matter might I ask what exactly is the thinking on its strategic value in the context of our energy requirements and what is the cost factor on the gallon of petrol in relation to the continued operation of Whitegate?

With regard to the ESB, we have heard a lot today about partnerships and economies of scale. Was there ever a study done as to what economic saving could be made if there was a strategic alliance with Northern Ireland Electricity? In other words, was there an aim over time to integrate both services within the island and to share power production?

In the proposal to build the new power station, was the question of the conservation of energy, as opposed to the extra production of energy, considered to its full possibilities. Utilities would rather sell more than less and there is always a tendency to go for the prestige project rather than that which might be in the national interest, that is to save in the amount of waste there is in the use of electricity. Allied to that, where jobs are at stake the cost to the Exchequer between two projects, one which has a large indigenous labour force, for example peat production, as opposed to bringing in the energy from outside, would be about £10 million per annum per thousand jobs. Is that taken into account when decisions are being made as to which source of energy would be used? Obviously, a situation might arise where one might be saving money in the Department of Energy but losing money in both the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Welfare.

On the issue of private bog development are there any proposals under the EC Structural Funds to reintroduce this scheme which is of particular significance in the small western bogs and which also provides people with a security of energy supply of their own. Furthermore, is there any proposal regarding a gas supply for the west?

On renewable resources, where do we stand regarding the possibilities of wind energy, tidal energy and biomass? Is there any serious consideration being given to these, as at times it appears that we are living for the moment and have quickly forgotten the energy shortages that have recurred over the last 20 or 30 years at irregular intervals and in unforeseen circumstances. Each time this happened people were unprepared and there was a move towards renewable energy.

The Minister referred to the farm ESB scheme, Telecom Éireann have a policy which I favour whereby everybody pays the same installation costs. The ESB operates a different policy. I wonder what the Government's policy is in relation to installation costs? The ESB may charge ordinary householders approximately £4,000 or £5,000 in connection fees. For example, people in rural areas often have to pay £1,500, even if they are within 100 or 200 yards of an existing supply. Is any attempt being made to bring ESB policy in line with the policy favoured by Telecom Éireann in this regard? Equality of cost is important. Small companies are being quoted figures such as £10,000 or £15,000 for the upgrading of lines from single phase to three-phase.

On monitoring radiation, there is concern about possible emissions from high tension wires, MMDS, radar, etc. Are there any plans by the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland to ensure continued independent monitoring of radiation levels from these sources? Is there a system in place to ensure that monitoring is carried out independently and that the results are published so as to allay public fears?

In relation to Deputy Fitzgerald's question about high tension power lines, this does not come under the remit of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland because it does not involve nuclear radiation. It replaces the Nuclear Energy Board and it is concerned with ionising radiation only. Experts in my Department have said there is no evidence to suggest a health risk from high tension power lines. The ESB has equipment capable of measuring radiation from high tension power lines. However, a comprehensive report prepared by my chief technical officer will allay the Deputy's misgivings and he may contact the Department.

Will the Minister publish the report?

In trying to answer Deputy Fitzgerald's query, I am prepared to allow my chief technical officer consider this specific issue and allay any unfounded fears. We beleive there are no problems in this regard. The report will be available on request.

Will the Minister make the report public?

If I give the report to Deputy Dukes I am sure he will make it public.

Will the Minister publish the report?

The report may be made suitable for publication. Deputy Creed mentioned the oil refinery at Whitegate, County Cork. The Government, in its response to the Moriarty Task Force and the implementation of the Culliton report, accepted the recommendation that the mandatory regime be ended immediately unless the refinery can be commercialised by 31 December 1996. The options to achieve this are currently under consideration by the Department in conjunction with the INPC and it is hoped that the commercialisation plan can be brought to Government before the end of June 1993, as stipulated in the Government's response to the Moriarty Task Force. Reports of its closure are inaccurate and are greatly exaggerated.

The question of funding will be determined in tandem with the decision on the appropriate level of upgrading necessary for commercial operation. While investment has not been ruled out, the poor economics of worldwide oil refining would make investment unattractive at this time. However, we are open to offers. Furthermore, bearing in mind the constraints on the Exchequer, alternative funding mechanisms will be considered initially. The cost of maintaining strategic stocks is currently met through the mandatory regime. The demise of the mandatory regime will necessitate the development of an alternative funding mechanism.

Deputy Ó Cuív's idea of a conservation philosophy permeating through our society to try to reduce demand and get the best utilisation of plant requires scrutiny by Government. The Programme for a Partnership Government emphasises the potential of energy conservation in relation to reducing capital requirements. Its usefulness should not be over-estimated but it should be a component in determining future generation capacity. The Minister of State, Deputy N. Treacy, has specific responsibilities in this area and we are in agreement that this issue should be high on our priority list.

In relation to the ESB, I am aware of the situation which Deputy Ó Cuív referred to. However, the ESB do not charge the full economic cost and rural electrification has always been cost subsidised. This policy will continue. I am aware that costs are high in rural areas, particularly in isolated areas where a considerable number of poles must be erected, and a person building for the first time in an area must bear a significant part of the cost. Part of the cost may be refunded if further development takes place in the area, but that may take some time. The best way to deal with this problem is to ensure that we have a competitive electricity industry with a competitive cost structure. That is something which is ongoing. I realise that the cost of installation can be prohibitive, particularly in relation to three-phase electricity. However, it is something which we will keep under review:

I refer to Deputy Ó Cuív's point about renewable energy. This has been regarded by successive Ministers as the "cinderella" of energy policy. There are areas of interest that we must pursue in relation to wind energy and biomass. A pilot project at the University of Ulster at Coleraine, County Derry, has improved the prospects of biomass as a fuel that would be of economic benefit in the area of energy. The Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, has responsibility for this matter while I deal with lesser problems in the Department. In relation to Bord Gáis Éireann's prospects of expanding to the west, its legislation states that it must operate on a commercial basis. If a commercial market which would cover full investment costs can be identified, then it would consider making the necessary addition to the national grid. However, there are no plans at present to extend the national grid to Galway; but, if it becomes a commercial option, there is no reason why it could not consider this in the future.

In relation to rural supply, the ESB is currently offering the option of instalment payments, especially where those on low financial means are involved, but are charging finance company rates of interest. These are astronomical when compared to the amount of money lent to the individual. With its borrowing power I would have felt that the ESB could have given a rate of 8 or 9 per cent. The ESB should not be making a profit on lending money; it is not a money lender. Giving an extended period to pay and charging reasonable interest rates would be a great help to the rural consumer. The ESB should be forced to do that, otherwise more rural people will go to the cities and this will create further problems.

A number of Deputies have indicated that they want to speak. We are getting bogged down here. We have only reached programme two and there are four more programmes to get through in half an hour. The next speakers are Deputies Sheehan, Flood and Kemmy and I would ask them to confine their questions.

First, I notice that the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland has been in existence since 1 April 1992. Has that institute carried out any tests on the effects that the microwave system, as operated by the MMDS, could have both on the environment and on humans? There is great fear about it. It is a detrimental system and is not allowed in any other European country. If no tests have been carried out by the institute, when will it carry them out?

Secondly, would the Minister give an assurance that all moneys owed to the ESB under the rural electrification farm grant scheme, be paid immediately to the company, because only £150,000 is allocated for it this year? Last year this same amount was absorbed in the first six months. The ESB will not accept any new applications until the Department of Energy pays these outstanding debts.

Thirdly, what is the future for the Whiddy oil terminal? There is only a token sum of £1,000 for it in this year's Estimates. Has the Minister made any progress in finding a foreign oil firm, similar to Gulf Oil, to reopen it, or has anything been done in the matter? It is one of the finest storage depots in Europe, if not the world, and has the finest deep-water berthage——

You have exhausted your time for questions, Deputy Sheehan. Other Deputies also want to speak.

Many comments have been made about the Sellafield nuclear reprocessing plant. Does the Minister know if this country is currently sending any product of any kind for reprocessing or treatment to this complex? If so, how does this square with the stated policy of preferring to see the plant close rather than see it expanded and develop, as it appears to be doing at the moment? If Sellafield is not taking any ionisation products from this country, can the Minister confirm if the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland is responsible for ensuring the safe disposal of such products? Is the Minister satisfied that such products are being properly dealt with? Are they being disposed of here, or are they being exported to a suitable plant abroad for safe disposal?

My second question relates to the proposed peat-fired power station. In his opening statement the Minister said that this station would use one million tonnes of peat per annum. The Minister did not outline what quantity of peat is recoverable or harvestable. Can he tell me what quantity could be used for power stations?

My third question relates to the construction of the gas interconnector. The Minister made laudable comments about how quickly the lines were laid and so on. What were the economic benefits of the construction phase? Are those employed in the project — the contractors etc. — from this country?

Like Deputy Ó Cuív, I wish to see the Minister use his office to encourage greater energy conservation in all sectors of the energy industry. The ESB has been a market leader in this regard and has shown great initiative by organising seminars and competitions for employers to encourage them to save energy. They are rewarded not only by greater efficiency in their workplace, but the ESB also gives them awards for their work in that area. I hope that this will continue. I would like to see that thinking extended also to Bord Gáis. Bord Gáis has been around for less than a decade and in its initial years the company had to encourage people to use natural gas and provide attractive offers to facilitate this. As a result conservation probably was not high on its list of objectives. Since the company is now well established and the time limit for these offers has in most cases expired, it should, like the ESB, concentrate on greater energy conservation.

In regard to peat — it is called turf in my region — I agree with the Minister's favourable comments on Bord na Móna. Both the company's managing director, Edward O'Connor, and chairman, Brendan Halligan, have been excellent in leading it for the last five years. However, its advertising has not reflected the changing role of peat in our society and the role the Minister has projected for that today. Many members will recall the Bord na Móna advertisements on television about a yuppie household, with the Marino waltz playing in the background, and their attractive and cosy fireplace. They also had radio advertisements featuring Barney McKenna and John Sheehan of the Dubliners. They were good advertisements. If the roles of the ESB, Bord Gáis and Bord na Móna are to be expanded the advertisements must reflect the changing Ireland also. It is nice to have cosy advertisements but there is another world outside the yuppie type of household which was portrayed for peat or, as I call it, turf.

Finally, I say to Deputy O'Keeffe again that I am fully in favour of co-operation between Britain and Ireland for gas and between Northern Ireland and this country for electricity. It makes sense because Ireland is an island. There is a small population in both parts of the island and it is madness to have barriers. We are living in a world now and energy cannot be confined to one small area because it is international. We must help each other in that respect and therefore I am fully in favour of co-operation. I urge the Minister to use his office to break down more barriers because many of them have no role or relevance in the modern world.

There were a number of issues raised and I will deal with them as quickly as I can. Deputy Flood raised the question of radioactive substances. They can only be imported under licence from the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. Under the strict licensing terms sealed radioactive substances must be returned to the source of supply which includes the UK but is mainly Canada. The substances go back to the manufacturer. There is no question of shipping them directly from here to Sellafield or anything of that nature given the terms of the licence under which they came in in the first place. I have no evidence that any product is being sent to Sellafield from Ireland. Unsealed radioactive substances are monitored here by the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. It is usually low-level radioactive waste which over a period of time, perhaps five to ten years, comes within the guidelines to be disposed of as normal waste. However, the sealed discharges, indicating higher levels of radioactive waste, which come into this country go back to source of supply and that is mainly Canada.

In relation to the remaining stocks of peat, it is estimated that at present levels there is approximately 40 years of production left in Irish bogs or approximately 120 million tonnes.

Regarding the Whiddy oil terminal, which Deputy Sheehan raised, previous Governments have for some time tried to find a partner for the upgrading of Whitegate and the refurbishment of Whiddy with the aim of bringing them into commercial use and reducing the costs to the economy. Investment was sought for Whiddy either as a stand alone project or in conjunction with Whitegate. Planning permission was obtained for two single point mooring buoys at Whiddy which would enable full reactivation without use of the damaged jetty. In practice there has been little real interest in Whiddy. It has been suggested that interest in land-based terminals was growing because of increased environmental concerns about using ships to store crude oil on a long term basis. Many ports have made their requirements more stringent and therefore more costly. Consequently the Government could have expected increased interest in the terminal but this has not been forthcoming. I assure Deputy Sheehan however that the Government's efforts to secure a future for Whiddy will continue with vigour.

On the MMDS issue, on which Deputy Sheehan and I have differed on a number of occasions, much, if not all, of the opposition to MMDS has been generated or inspired by those involved in illegal rebroadcasting systems known as deflectors. Three main criticisms relate to alleged health hazards, costs and coverage. In relation to the health hazard it is perhaps unfortunate that the word microwave was used in the expression MMDS. It has allowed those opposed to the introduction of MMDS to exploit the association in the general public's mind between microwave and ovens. Similarly microwave or radio frequency radiation has been associated with nuclear or ionising radiation with consequent fears of cancer, deformities, etc. In some areas the fears of the general public have been scandalously exploited by handouts and pronouncements which are either misinterpretations of or totally devoid of any scientific basis.

The term microwave is not a precise scientific term. The International Telecommunication Union which is responsible for worldwide radio frequency planning and allocation regards the frequencies reserved for MMDS here, around 2.5 gigahertz, as the upper part of the UHF band. Conversely the international radiation protection association would call frequencies used by illegal rebroadcasting systems microwave. The Government rejects the contention that MMDS poses a health hazard in any way. This aspect is being used by those who are operating illegally, without licences, and who are making no contribution to my Department in terms of how a proper multichannel service is maintained. It is being used by them as a defence against their illegal activities. Those are the facts.

Chairman, on a point of order.

Sorry Deputy, the next speaker is Deputy Hughes.

The Minister did not answer my third question about rural electrification.

I will come back to it.

Deputy Hughes, followed by Deputy Crawford.

In my constituency the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland provides ongoing services to a company which is rather unique. Gammaster provide an irradiation service to the pharmaceutical industry and we were very fortunate to secure the company. It is a leader in Europe and it will eventually replace services which treat products by a gas process for the existing pharmaceutical industry. I would like the Minister to be aware of Gammaster's existence and the help that the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland gave to it in the course of a drawn out planning process. The local community fully supported the setting up of this company but unfortunately Earthwatch, which has no representation whatsoever in my constituency, felt that it was incumbent upon it to object. We nearly lost which I consider to be a strategic asset for the country which will further progress the potential establishment of overseas pharmaceutical companies in Ireland.

The Moriarty report contains a statement that the Government should consider setting up industrial estate which would be earmarked for certain types of industries, such as in Cork. A Government decision ensured that whatever spare industrial land there was in my town, Westport, was sold. The Minister will be aware that the IDA spent a considerable amount of time trying to attract overseas companies. It spent many months trying to persuade them of the benefits of setting up in Ireland but once an industrialist decides to locate in Ireland, they want to set up immediately and have all the services available. I make that observation so that the Minister will be aware that we have a unique industry in Ireland, providing a state-of-the-art service which is not available in any other part of Ireland. It is specially geared towards the pharmaceutical industry and uses the services of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. I fully support the statement in the Moriarty report that industrial sites, to reverse a previous Government decision, should be purchased and earmarked for particular types of industries. I would like the Minister's support on that.

On mineral exploration in my constituency, we won one High Court case and lost another. Deputy Molloy is here and he is well aware of what I am referring to and I congratulate him for preventing any further exploration on Croagh Patrick which is the national religious pilgrimage mountain. Unfortunately Mayo County Council's decision was reversed by the High Court in relation to a further mineral development exploration licence for a highly scenic area which was granted to Glencar. I ask the Minister, with regard to these and other experiences, if he feels that the legislation should be reviewed to take account of the need for a public consultative role in the granting of exploration licences?

There is no such role at the moment and the Minister must accept and acknowledge that while mining companies may go through the correct legislative process and be granted prospecting licences and, subsequently, mining licences and planning permission, nothing can be successful in Ireland if 98 per cent of the local community is opposed to it. That is the current situation in my constituency. Does the Minister think, taking on board the lessons which may have been learned, that there is a need to allow the public to express their view on the granting of exploration licences?

I wish to return to the issue of rural electrification which was raised by Deputy Ó Cuív. It seems with the phasing out of the grant structure that the ESB is not interested in talking to farmers or rural people about grant aid towards the installation of electricity. I think an equalisation of costs, as suggested by the Deputy, must be considered. Otherwise people living in remote rural areas will no longer be able to afford to install electricity in their homes or farmyards. Costings which I have seen recently do not suggest that the ESB is giving any priority to such matters.

I also agree with Deputy Ó Cuív that the cost of footing that bill over a number of years is exorbitant and I think there was a commitment to keep people in rural Ireland that could be looked at. In my constituency we do not have railways, which will be considered in the next part of this document if we get that far, and we have no gas either. The major issue as far as we are concerned is electricity and the cost to individuals is exhorbitant. I would like the Minister to take into consideration the suggestion which was made by the Deputy and which I fully support.

I mistakenly omitted to answer Deputy Sheehan's question in relation to the farm electrification scheme. I described the background of this scheme and the fact that it was part of the western package over a specific ten year period and was subsequently extended for a couple of years by my Department. Unfortunately, I do not have a bottomless purse and must work within the Estimate, which is £150,000. I am anxious to ensure that those who have applied will have their connections completed. I am not in a position to guarantee an open-ended scheme on the basis of the allocation which has been made to me. It would be wrong of me to allow a situation to develop where because of the restraint on funding, the demand was not being catered for. I must bring the situation to a conclusion soon and allow the ESB to deal with existing applications in line with their own work programme in those specific areas.

It is a matter which was initiated by the Department of Agriculture as part of the western package. We in the Department of Energy agreed to extend it for a couple of years and it would have to revert to the Department of Agriculture to decide whether a grant aid scheme was to continue beyond that point or not. That is the current position. I am anxious to try to deal with those who have applied up to this date. However, as I say, I do not have a bottomless purse and I can only work within the allocation given to me by Government.

What about the people from the——

There are questions from other Deputies. I think I have been quite generous to Deputy Sheehan.

In reply to Deputy Hughes, I would agree with him, coming from a rural constituency myself, about the need for infrastructure to be in place to facilitate industrial development. Apart from our geographical peripherality, we need that investment in infrastructure in order to compete on a level playing field with other parts of the country for industry, which is just as vital in our constituencies as anywhere else. I am glad to hear that the RPII has been of assistance to the pharmaceutical industry in Westport. Pharmaceuticals is one of the industries which has a clustering effect; it tends to locate in the same areas rather than being scattered everywhere. That has been the experience in Cork. I hope Westport will get a share of that and I will support them in any way I can in terms of the assistance which semi-State bodies under my control can provide in relation to infrastructure.

On the question of the mining situation, the environmental aspects are very much to the fore from the Department's point of view because, as the Deputy said, it is important that public concerns about any licensing application would be allayed. Assessing the environmental impact facilitates the consultative process in many cases. I think that mining is an important industry and one which we would like to see develop in this country. It must of course adhere to the highest international standards and deal with the concerns expressed by the public in relation to any given geographical location. The implications of the decision to which the Deputy referred in his question are being considered by my Department. I would take the point, however, that a wide consultative arrangement is advantageous for any application and should be promoted. I would agree with the points he has made in that regard.

In relation to the question about the cost of rural electrification, as I said earlier, at present the ESB meets 50 per cent of the installation costs, which is not to deny that it is still expensive for the individual concerned. I would not take Deputy Ó Cuív's point that there would be exorbitant interest charges in relation to the instalment scheme run by the ESB. There is an excellent treasury management facility within the ESB which provides financial expertise equal to that of any semi-State body. I take the point that there is a perception that electricity charges are high, particularly in rural areas. I will take that up with the chairman and the board to see how management can address that issue. However, I would suggest that there is no short term solution.

I regret to say that we are unable to conclude because as yet we have considered only the end of the Estimate. I think it will be necessary to reconvene this meeting, because it is most unsatisfactory. There are other programmes which are extremely important and I think they should be considered by the Committee. For that reason I will be asking the convenors to set another date when we can consider the other parts of the Estimate.

On a point of order, I think it would be unfair to the Minister and to the members to describe the meeting as unsatisfactory. I think we have had a very detailed discussion on the energy aspects of the Minister's brief and he has been very forthcoming with information and in his responses. He has given a wide ranging response on many issues and has been very helpful. I know it has been unsatisfactory in the length of time take, but it has been very informative and helpful.

I pointed this out at a meeting with the Whips and the convenors. It was decided that, with the agreement of the Minister, we will arrange a further meeting to deal with the other subheads. We have until the end of June to get the Estimates adopted.

I think part of the problem is that the most productive part of these debates are the question and answer sessions. This evening an inordinate amount of time was spent on the preliminaries before we got involved in the detail of policy, which is the aim of the Committee. The preliminary statements are similar to Second Stage speeches. I understood the Committee was basically a question and answer session in which every Deputy would have an opportunity to participate.

I concur with Deputy Ó Cuív. During this and the previous meetings of the Committee we discussed only the first two sections on the agenda. We did not reach the sections that were of interest to me. Perhaps it suited the Minister. The Committee is not covering all matters on the agenda, so I suggest that the format be reconsidered.

The format of the meeting is a matter for the Deputies and the convenors and that point could be put to them. The deletion of the opening statements, with the exception of the Minister's, would be one way of expediting business. The terms of reference provide for opening statements from all parties and their exclusion must be decided by the Whips. I would agree with a renewal of the terms of reference.

We will endeavour to accommodate the Minister regarding a suitable date for his return to the committee.

This has been a new experience for me. I genuinely thank the Deputies for the constructive nature of the proceedings and I hope I have been informative about energy matter. It is important that we as public representatives be well informed on these issues which affect our constituents. This has been a fruitful experience and I would be happy to return at a mutually convenient time to deal with transport and communications matters.

In accordance with the timetable agreed at the Select Committee meeting on 25 May, the Committee will meet again on Friday, 4 June at 10 a.m. until 1 p.m. The Estimate for Tourism and Trade will be on the agenda.

The Select Committee adjourned until Friday, 4 June 1993.

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