Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy debate -
Tuesday, 13 Jul 1993

SECTION 2.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications (Mr. N. Treacy)

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 9, line 2, to delete "or in" and substitute ", a register established under section 60 or".

As Members will see the definition, as drafted, specifies the owner of an aircraft as being the person registered as the owner in a register established under the Act of 1946. Under this Bill, responsibility for registering aircraft will be transferred to the Irish Aviation Authority. The Authority will establish its own register. The definition of "owner" needs to be expanded to include aircraft registered by the new Authority so there is no ambiguity or difficulty at a later stage.

Mr. Flood

Will the Minister explain how this will apply to aircraft registered in Ireland but leased for use abroad? Is that covered?

Mr. N. Treacy

Yes. There are many aircraft registered in Ireland — Aer Lingus aircraft and, in particular GPA aircraft — and leased throughout the world. This includes the present register under ANSO. The Bill is not absolutely clear from a drafting and legal point of view in its reference to aircraft registered by the Authority. Therefore, we want to make it clear that in future the Authority will have full legal competence to register aircraft.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. N. Treacy

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 9, line 10, after "includes", to insert ", in addition to a record in writing".

The purpose of this amendment is to make it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that the term "record" covers records in writing as well as photographs, recordings and computer records. We want to make it crystal clear what a "record" means.

Miss Flaherty

This amendment is eminently sensible. In attempting to cover all records the Minister forgot to mention one of the oldest, writing.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed: "That section 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Dukes

With regard to the definition of "State aerodromes", am I correct in thinking that that definition is included because those are the only aerodromes covered in this Bill and that the provision of services at any other aerodrome in the future would require an amendment to the Act, as it will then be?

Mr. N. Treacy

No, responsibility for the provision of the services currently provided by ANSO are being transferred to the new Authority. ANSO is responsible for the services provided at all our State aerodromes. If in future the Authority is requested to provide services at other private aerodromes there will be no difficulty with that; it will have the capacity, the facility and the right to do so.

Mr. Dukes

Will it have an obligation to do so?

Mr. N. Treacy

If will not have an obligation to do so because most private people use their own services.

Miss Flaherty

The more popular word "airport" does not appear in the Bill. Is the word "airport" not a legislative term?

Mr. N. Treacy

The word "airport" is not used. The word "aerodrome" covers a very wide definition, for example, water and land.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): Section 2 (1) state:

"Statute of the Agency" means the Statute set out in Annex 1 to the Euro-control Convention and any amendments thereto made after the commencement of this Act;

How does that provision now lie in the light of the Supreme Court decision in the Angel Dust case?

Mr. N. Treacy

We are a party to the Eurocontrol Convention which was passed in Brussels in 1960 and amended in 1970, 1978 and 1981. As a party to this convention we are legally obliged to operate it. I do not see any difficulty or conflict with the facility the Minister has had in the past in terms of operating the Statute and being a party to that convention under the new Authority.

Mr. Noonan (Limerick East)

I have no problem with that, that is not an answer to my question. My question relates to the last three lines of the definition which ties us in to any amendment made to the convention after the enactment of this Bill. I thought the new constitutional position was that amendments to international conventions would have to be brought before the Houses of the Oireachtas separately and that a catch-all provision like this would no longer be operable.

Mr. N. Treacy

I am not certain that that is the legal position. We have not taken this into account but, having regard to our responsibility as a State and the fact that the Authority will have to protect aviation travellers, we must be prepared to operate the convention and any amendments to it.

Mr. Noonan (Limerick East)

I have no problem with the first part of the Minister's reply but I have a problem with the phrase "any amendments to it". Is this in accordance with the most recent legal position?

Mr. N. Treacy

In the interests of ensuring that the legislation is binding and operable, I will consult with the Attorney General's Office on that matter, ascertain the position and report back to the Deputy.

Mr. Noonan (Limerick East)

I wish to thank the Minister.

Mr. O'Malley

On the definition of "aerodrome", which includes an area of water used for landing and take-off, that may have been appropriate when the 1936 and 1946 Acts were being drafted but it hardly seems of much importance now. The definition goes further to include any land, water or building or other structure which is used for the landing or taking-off by aircraft capable of descending or climbing vertically. Presumably helicopters and Harrier jump jets are the only two aircraft in that category.

Mr. Dukes

They are all capable of ascending or descending vertically but one could come to a sticky end in some cases.

Mr. O'Malley

I do not think that is what is contemplated by the definition.

Mr. Dukes

No, but it seems to be comprehended under the definition.

Mr. O'Malley

The definition seems peculiar inasmuch as 99.9 per cent of aircraft activities relate to the conventional landing and taking-off of conventional aircraft by conventional means on a runway. The two activities defined in the definition are non-conventional: first, landing on water and, second, vertical take-off. The word "aerodrome" is 40 or 50 years out of date, it is never used now. The only reason it is included in this Bill is because it was used in the 1936 and 1946 Acts when it was, perhaps, normal. I would have thought the word "airport" was a more normal and sensible word today. The definition does not include a conventional airport. It includes places where helicopters and flying boats can take-off but it does not include places where conventional fixed wing aircraft with wheels can take-off or land. What is the point of having such a convoluted definition?

Mr. N. Treacy

The intention is to be absolutely clear. We are not really defining the places; rather we are saying where these aircraft might land. "Aerodrome" and "aircraft" are very broad terms. We could not allow for a situation where somebody would make an arbitrary decision to operate an aircraft of some type at a particular place which we could not control. This definition gives us the legal authority to control such activities.

Mr. Kemmy

One of the ways this matter could be resolved is by looking at European legislation, which influences so much of our legislation, and seeing its definition of "aerodrome". Deputy O'Malley is implying that the definition is harping back to the days of the flying boats at Foynes, County Limerick. As the Minister said, this definition is an attempt to keep our options open. I cannot see us reverting to the days of the flying boats but, at the same time, the word "aerodrome" covers all possibilities. It is a mere technicality whether we use the word "aerodrome" or "airport"; its function is well known to all of us.

Miss Flaherty

It seems strange that the word "airport" is not used. In the Bill the word "aerodrome" includes "an area of water intended for use for landing or taking off by aircraft and also includes an area, whether on land or water or on a building . . . for use for landing or taking off by aircraft capable of descending or climbing vertically". There appears to be a slight gap in the definition. The inclusion of the word "airport" might get over some of the difficulties. While landing on water may not be as common today as it was I have noticed the increasing use of aircraft to take people to isolated areas for fishing and so on.

Mr. N. Treacy

Many important points have been made, but the definition of "aerodrome" also includes helipads where helicopters land, landing areas on oil rigs and other structures. We have to cover every eventuality in every location.

Mr. O'Malley

My point is that it will cover all these unconventional places for helicopter flights and flying boat flights, which presumably will never arise again, but it will not cover the ordinary conventional airport. The definition of "aerodrome" does not cover a normal land airport like Dublin, Shannon, Cork, Knock or anywhere else. It only covers obscure places that are most unlikely to arise. I cannot see the point in including a definition that excludes 99 per cent of the places used by aircraft.

Mr. Noonan (Limerick East)

The definition of "State aerodrome" includes State airports.

Mr. N. Treacy

Every airport has an aerodrome; every landing area is described as an aerodrome.

Mr. Dukes

Surely the definition of aerodrome should include all of what Deputy O'Malley referred and those referred to in the Bill.

Mr. N. Treacy

I would like to be helpful to the committee. I propose to look again at this definition and see whether it is necessary to redraft it to include the word "airport". I will give a report on Report Stage, if that is necessary, of the de facto situation.

Mr. Noonan (Limerick East)

To be helpful to the Minister, there is a definition of "aerodrome" at the end of page 6 and a definition of "State Aerodrome" at the end of page 9 which covers the points made by Members.

Mr. Dukes

All we seem to be sure of at present is that if a helipad or an artificial lake for landing is built at Knock, Shannon or Dublin, flying boats will be included but otherwise they will not. I wish to inform Deputy O'Malley that one reverend gentleman still operates a flying boat out of Killaloe so the art is not entirely dead yet.

Mr. O'Malley

Absolutely.

Mr. Dukes

The word "aircraft" is defined as "a machine that can derive support in the atmosphere from the reactions of the air, other than the reactions of the air against the earth's surface". I invite the Minister to reconsider that because there are, in fact, aircraft that can partially derive support from the reactions of the air against the earth's surface. For helicopter pilots it is known as ground effect. When they are flying fairly near the ground they get the normal aerodynamic support from the rotating wing, but also, because of the downwash from that, they get support from a kind of corresponding updraught, known as ground effect. The Minister should have a look at it again because he seems to be excluding from the definition helicopters operating in certain modes. They derive support from the reaction of the air against the earth's surface, whereas the Minister's definition includes only aircraft that do not have that kind of support.

Chairman

I am sure the Deputy's advice on aeronautics will be of tremendous advantage to the Minister.

Mr. Dukes

I would hate to find after a time that aircraft operating in some modes were not included.

Mr. N. Treacy

In response to Deputy Dukes, we are keeping in line with the definition of aircraft in the ICAO Convention in Chicago in 1944. As far as we are concerned, in the Bill the definition of aircraft is power-driven aircraft, aeroplanes, helicopters, non-power driven aircraft, balloons, gliders, hanggliders, but it excludes hovercraft.

Mr. Dukes

That is part of the problem because the hovercraft operates on the basis of what is known as ground effect. In 1944 they did not have helicopters that could benefit from ground effect, but military and civil helicopters that fly very low derive a part of their lift from ground effect.

Mr. N. Treacy

If we could ensure that we have the perfect definition in aviation terms I would be only too delighted to have another look at it.

Miss Flaherty

Perhaps 1944 may not be the most appropriate period from which to draw one's definitions in an industry that changes so fast. It might be time to look at some more modern benchmark.

Question put and agreed to.