Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy debate -
Wednesday, 21 Jul 1993

Procedure

Chairman

There is one item I would like to bring to the notice of the committee before we start, which is television coverage. During this morning's discussions in the House, many Members complained because we were not getting sufficient coverage of committee proceedings. A problem has arisen with regard to Members speaking in the Committee without being called by the Chairman. Those in charge of the controls do not have sufficient time to identify the speaker and, as a result, they are not being recorded. If any Member wishes to speak, I ask them to do so through the Chair. If maximum coverage is to be gained from our discussions, Members should wait until they are called by the Chair. When I call the speaker, the person at the controls can identify him and likewise for those controlling the cameras.

We should determine how long we will take to discuss the Bill. Are we going to complete Committee Stage today or will we continue tomorrow and set a time limit for today? This will depend on the availability of Members. We should decide a timetable. The Minister of State indicated that he would like to give officials in his Department an opportunity to tidy up other areas there before they go on holidays. He would prefer to finish the business this week, if at all possible.

Mr. Flood

: At the last meeting, we agreed that, if necessary, we would go on through tomorrow and Members present would have made arrangements accordingly. While it may not be possible to go on too late tonight, we should try to complete the business, certainly by tomorrow evening.

Chairman

: Do Members agree with what Deputy Flood suggested? We will adjourn at 5.30 p.m. and resume business tomorrow at 10.30 p.m.

Mr. Lawlor

: If necessary.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): There is no arrangement that will suit everybody. Out of consideration for the Minister of State, and civil servants, we should try to finish this week. I do not know. Much of this is re-enactment and a lot of ground may be covered today. We will see what the situation is at 5 p.m.

Chairman

: We will continue until 5 p.m. and then we will reassess the situation.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): The Glackin report has been referred to this Committee. Will we have time to refer to it at the end of this meeting? Could you indicate we will take it up in September?

Chairman

: When we complete this business we should decide when we will sit again and when we will discuss the Glackin report. We must decide how we will deal with the report. No precedent has been set in this regard. During the recess we should examine whether we may copy from another jurisdiction in relation to reports referred to select committees for consideration.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East) : Could we have advice before we have a discussion because there are a number of interested parties, from Mr. Glackin to those mentioned in the report? I know we do not have the power to call people, but some may want to state their case before the Committee.

Chairman

: This morning, in the Dáil when the reports from the committees were presented, some of these points were raised. Regarding the question of privilege, if we are allowed to summon witnesses, the question of privilege, in relation to people such as civil servants who do not enjoy privilege, must be considered. What form will this take? Will this be held in committee or at a public meeting? We will need some backup and finance for expert and legal advice as to how to deal with this report. These issues must be carefully examined. We will also need to contact the Whips' office in this regard.

Has each member received a copy of the Glackin report? It is also important that the interim report is circulated because it is referred to throughout the final report. It is essential that each member of the Committee receives a copy of these documents to familiarise themselves with their contents before we have a discussion. Perhaps we could try to set a date to deal with the Glackin report before we adjourn for the summer.

Mr. Lawlor

: Could we reach agreement that the interim and final reports referred to, be given to Committee members? Could we set a date to discuss this report in September? Arising from discussions among ourselves regarding the issues emerging from the report and points raised by Deputy Noonan and how we cope with them, it is necessary to provide each Committee member with a copy of the two reports and set a date in September for the discussion. We intended to meet in September, so it is only a question of setting a date and putting the report on the agenda.

We must not wait until the privilege issue is resolved or wait for witnesses to be called or to come forward voluntarily. Such limitations must not prevent us from continuing our work. These limitations may have to be addressed and rectified by another forum. They cannot be used to prevent us from doing the work we are given a mandate to do.

Chairman

: The report is available, but we do not have a copy of the interim report for each Member. The interim report is essential for any consideration of the final document.

Mr. Costello

: As the Chairman said, the report is not available and the information most Members have has come from newspaper reports. I agree with the Chairman that we must receive a copy of the interim and final reports. Both are comprehensive, but the final report is a large document and would take some time to study it carefully. There are implications, it is a major issue.

An inquiry was carried out and it is now before the Committee, obviously there are implications. Precedents may be set by this Committee. The best we could do today is to set a date when this report can come before the Committee. We will be unable to deal with it in August, therefore, September will be the earliest. In the meantime, we should try to resolve matters referred to, including privilege, witnesses and principals who may be anxious to come before the committee. We should treat it as comprehensively as possible and inform ourselves in advance of the Committee dealing with the case and the report.

Mr. Creed

: I suggest that in light of the fact that there are more Members present now than will be at the concluding stages of today's meeting, it might be appropriate to fix a date now. As the Dáil is returning for one day on 20 September, perhaps 21 September would be a suitable date.

Chairman

: Is that agreed?

Mr. Lawlor

: Deputy Creed is proposing that we meet on Tuesday, 21 September 1993, at 10.30 a.m.

Chairman

: Is that a suitable date for consideration of the Glackin report? In the meantime, the relevant documents the interim report and the final report will be circulated.

We must discuss the type of advice which the Committee would require. It is not possible for the Minister of State, Deputy O'Rourke to make the necessary preparations on her own, bearing in mind that this is a major job. It will be necessary for us to go to the liaison committee to secure funding and, if necessary, to enlist the necessary skills we require for backup. Does everybody agree that I should go to the Chairman of the liaison committee to get the necessary funding? Agreed.

Mr. O'Malley

: I am sorry I missed the start of the meeting, I was at another committee which is sitting at the moment. Could you explain the proposals in relation to the Glackin report? Is it to examine Mr. Glackin or to examine the people who gave evidence before Mr. Glackin?

Chairman

: I have no doubt everybody would see a certain way of dealing with the problem, arising from the Glackin report. Is there a weakness in the tax system or in company law? Will we need legislation to ensure that we do not have a repetition of what happened on this occasion? We should see it in the context of what we must do as politicians and as elected Members of Oireachtas Éireann. That is how I perceive our role in this instance.

Mr. O'Malley

: I accept that is a valid way to approach this matter, but you have not answered my question as to whether it is proposed to examine Mr. Glackin or to examine all or some of the witnesses who gave evidence to the inquiry.

Chairman

: All we can do under the existing terms of reference is to table written submissions. At present we cannot examine Mr. Glackin or summon a witness. That is in our terms of reference. I believe a suggestion was made by Deputy John Bruton that there should be amending legislation to allow us to call witnesses, if desired, before we discuss the Glackin report.

I am endeavouring to clarify with Members on the Government side the position regarding the sub judice rule and the fact that it has been referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions? What are the implications for this Committee? All these matters must be clarified before we resume in September.

Mr. O'Malley

: Another matter to bear in mind is that there is an appeal before the Supreme Court by one of the witnesses to the Glackin report to have me committed to prison.

Chairman

: I have already mentioned that.

Mr. O'Malley

: That caused the sub judice rule to be invoked.

Mr. Lawlor

: We do not want to go down that road.

Chairman

: Deputy, I also sought your permission to get legal advice and to go to the Chairman of the liaison committee so that we would avoid some of these pitfalls. That is how we should proceed.

Mr. Lawlor

: The points Deputy O'Malley is putting forward about how to proceed are valid. We propose to reconvene on 21 September and the issues which arise will probably require clarification. The issues Mr. Glackin has raised need to be addressed and this Committee will focus its attention on them. Mr. Glackin has done a competent job. Arising from our first meeting, many problems relate to how we should proceed. As you said, Chairman, in the interim we will attempt to address the anomalies when discussing the Glackin report. We may meet on 21 September without these questions being resolved.

Chairman

: If we have not resolved these questions, we have the option of adjourning the meeting until we are in possession of the facts.

Mr. Kemmy

: I hope I do not have to visit my constituency colleague, Deputy O'Malley in prison when we resume. I do not wish him ill, despite his recent strictures on me.

Mr. McCormack

: Ask the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Deputy O'Dea.

Mr. Kemmy

: I will use my influence with Deputy O'Dea to keep Deputy O'Malley out of prison.

The fundamental point has been ignored. People selling an item, no matter who they are, especially developers and speculators, will always sell for the highest price. We should also ask Telecom Éireann to come before this Committee and we should ask it why it paid double the market value for a site with no planning permission. The fundamental point in this case, as far as I am concerned, is why a State company does not have enough common sense and understanding of the market values. Why did it pay double the price for a site, without any responsibility or accountability? That should be discussed here also.

Mr. McCormack

: Will we discuss it now, Chairman?

Chairman

: We are trying to establish a date for the meeting, Deputy McCormack. We have agreed it will take place on 21 September and I hope that some of the points raised here will be addressed by then.

Irish Aviation Authority Bill, 1993: Committee Stage (Resumed)