Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy debate -
Wednesday, 19 Jun 1996

SECTION 15.

Question proposed: "That section 15 stand part of the Bill".

Mrs. O'Rourke

Section 15(1) states: "The Authority shall have the power to establish companies, both inside and outside the State, for the purpose of providing services in relation to standards and certification." The section gives power to the body, if and when it is set up, to establish subsidiaries and there is genuine worry in regard to it. I understand that the NSAI is already presenting awards to companies in the US and I recently came across such a company. This is commendable given the voluntary staffing involvement.

There are genuine fears among the staff at many aspects of the Bill, and this is one of them. Subsidiaries, no more than consultative committees, etc., may well mean the transfer of a part of the agency to, for example, a subsidiary in the US because they already operate there. This could mean deployment of staff to a subsidiary in the US. One may well be told that one's job in the US is fine, and while the US may sound exciting and innovative and the land of the free, it is not if one is already living here with a home and children, or a lifestyle to which one has become accustomed.

I do not pose a fanciful scenario. I know that there is already conversation among the empire building people to whom I referred. The chattering classes are already talking about setting up such a subsidiary in the US. Where stands the rights of workers if this happens?

Mr. Rabbitte

I know a little about this business. I do not know if there is some uisce faoi thallamh which none of us know about. It is difficult to understand it being said that industrial relations are less civilised in NSAI or Forfás than they are generally in public sector organisations. In my experience over a long period there are well established procedures to handle industrial relations matters in the public sector organisations. The unions representing staff appear to be especially well equipped to do the job, and they do it well and conscientiously.

Deputy O'Rourke acknowledges that the establishment of a company as envisaged by her may be a good thing and that an organisation is flourishing and identifying an opportunity or niche for itself in the US or a number of other countries. In these circumstances one cannot be prescriptive. One cannot write into legislation what would happen in these circumstances but one would expect sensitive and considerate negotiations at organisational level in terms of the implications of any changes as envisaged by the Deputy.

I would like to believe this is the way staff are managed in Forfás and I have no evidence to the contrary. Disruption occurs in all our lives. We live in a period of dramatic change. There are industrial relations procedures which both sides of the table must live up to and I hope this will be the case here.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Philosophising on a sunny afternoon is a pleasant experience but it does not take the place of expressing my concerns as well as those of workers.

These are genuine concerns. It is no good saying we live in an era of evolving change, etc. I agree with that, as do most ordinary people until there is a problem and one is the person of whom it is required that a dramatic change in lifestyle be made. I only pose what may happen and I was careful to say it is good that NSAI has been busy and obtained recognition.

However, it is anathema to set it up semi autonomously, to give it these powers, to make an agency and to facilitate those who wish to empire build. There is a general feeling that people will be trampled on. "Trample" is a rough word and is perhaps not applicable to some of the sections. However, it is wrong not to be given a hearing, as is necessary in all kinds of relationships, not only this one.

There is no point in people saying I do not know what I am talking about; I do. I was a trade Unionist in my teaching days and in each of my ministries I was extensively involved with trade unions. There are good relationships and good ways of doing things, but at the end of the day some people get trampled on and their wishes are not respected. People have deep felt worries about this Bill and I am here to express them.

Chairman

I am probably the most senior trade union official in the Dáil and my experience has always been that the unions representing the public service are among the strongest affiliated to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 16 to 19, inclusive, agreed to.