Skip to main content
Normal View

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Wednesday, 8 Dec 1999

Vol. 2 No. 3

Estimates for Public Services, 1999.

Vote 34 - Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Supplementary).

I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, to the Select Committee and her officials, Mr. Rody Molloy, Assistant Secretary, Mr. Martin Lynch and Mr. John O'Brien. I also welcome Ms Sandra Hogan and Mr. Brendan Feeney from the Department.

As we are considering a Supplementary Estimate only, issues relevant to the subheads in question may be discussed. It is not open to the committee to recommend increases or decreases or to approve or reject a Supplementary Estimate. Members have been circulated with an information note on the Supplementary Estimate. I suggest that we ask the Minister to introduce the Supplementary Estimate which can be followed by contributions.

I thank the committee for giving me this opportunity to address it on the proposed Supplementary Estimate required for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment this year.

I am introducing this Estimate at a time when the economy is continuing to experience substantial growth. Unemployment continues to decline and the latest live register figures for November indicate that the rate is now down to 5.1%. The number of persons on the live register is 171,785. This represents a decrease of 17.1% on the same period last year and the lowest figure in 17 years.

The additional financial commitments for 1999 arise from the continuing need to provide for the physical and human infrastructure to meet the demands of our current level of economic activity. A token Supplementary Estimate of £1,000 only is proposed to allow payment by IDA Ireland of £6,113,497 to a global crossing on foot of the State's contractual commitment to invest in a large band with capacity cable connecting Ireland to global telecommunications networks. This Estimate is also being sought to cover a shortfall in EU funding to FÁS, details of which I will give later. A token Supplementary Estimate only is required because there are sufficient savings in my Department's overall Vote to meet these financial commitments in 1999.

The global communications revolution is changing the shape of the global economy. Dramatic advances in technology and the developments of the Internet as a platform for electronic commerce are at the heart of this revolution. Within the next two or three years the Internet will have created a single market of more than three million computer based customers world-wide. The scale of growth forecast for electronic commerce is staggering. Already, e-commerce transactions are estimated to be worth more than £100 billion per annum. Electronic commerce will be attracted to those countries with low cost, high quality telecommunications and Internet services, good business and legal environments for electronic commerce and a highly skilled workforce.

Ireland is the world's second largest exporter of software, supplying some 60% of the European software market, and is host to some 40% of US pan European call centres and technical support operations. This is a compelling indicator of what can be achieved through effective national strategic positioning. If we are to continue to attract the top global players in telecommunications and Internet services, we must have access to a global telecommunications infrastructure.

It was against this background that the Government decided in November 1998 to authorise negotiations with prospective suppliers of global connectivity. Ireland's existing internal fibre network will distribute widely the benefits that this enhanced connectivity project will begin.

The Government has agreed to the establishment of a public-private partnership to provide for private investment in the project, through which the State intends to recoup its investment. The State, however, reserves the right to retain a strategic interest in the project. It is difficult, at this stage, to forecast the level of the receipts from the project. An amount of £17 million has been included in the recent Estimates for 2000. Any receipts received will be returned to the Exchequer.

The subhead K1, FÁS grant for administration and general expenses, is £6,113,000. Subhead K2, training for the unemployed, is £7,975,000. Subhead K3, training for the unemployed, £2,472,000. Subhead K4, the grant for community employment, is £2,998,000. The proposed Supplementary Estimate is also required to allow payment to FÁS of approximately £90 million, due to a shortfall in EU receipts.

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is the national authority for the European Social Fund and the lead Department for the main ESF operational programme, known as the human resources development operational programme. It covers a range of cofunded measures, which are designed to meet the training and educational needs of many different groups within society and, ultimately, contribute to enhanced economic development.

FÁS is responsible for implementing measures, such as apprenticeship, industry training for the unemployed, local enterprise, measures to assist early school leaver, reintegration and community training, the training support scheme and training services to industry. In 1999, FÁS received EU payments in respect of the above measures totalling £56 million. However, the European Commission notified my Department in mid-November that, due to a shortage of payment credits, it will not be able to make any further payments in respect of the human resources development operational programme or any other ESF operational programme in any other member state for the rest of 1999, hence the need for the Supplementary Estimate for FÁS.

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has taken up the matter at senior level with the Commission and is taking every opportunity to press for quick payment of the outstanding amounts. In spite of this, the Commission considers it almost certain that it will be January 2000, at the earliest, before the outstanding payments can be made. I assure the committee that the Department will pursue this matter with the Commission to ensure the recovery of the total moneys due.

Subhead C2 is for IDA Ireland's grants to industry and subhead K5 covers FÁS capital expenditure. A saving of £22.5 million is expected to be realised on IDA Ireland's grants to industry budget, due to the demand for grant payments being lower than anticipated in early 1999. The grants to industry are given in the form of employment grants, training grants, grants for new skills and technologies and fixed assets.

In the original Estimate for 1999, IDA Ireland was approved grants of £440 million towards its grants to industry budget. In addition, IDA Ireland has own resources at its disposal of £13 million - £8 million from the European Social Fund and £5 million repayment of capital grants. The approved expenditure level for the grants to industry budget for 1999 is £153 million. The capital grants budget requirement is largely a product of approvals in previous years. The 1999 grants to industry budget Estimate was prepared by IDA Ireland in 1998. The budget is estimated using lead time draw downs and past approvals. In recent months, it became clear to the agency that there would be an under draw of approximately £22.5 million in 1999. This will not result in an increase in the requirement for Exchequer grant in 2000. In addition, a saving of £3.376 million is expected to be realised as a result of delayed construction work in respect of repairs and renovations to premises under the FÁS capital expenditure programme.

I welcome the Minister. While the Estimate covers only a very small portion of her Department, it is a very important one. I agree with the extra requirement of £6.113 million for the payment made by IDA Ireland to Global Crossing Limited, for the purpose of providing a high capacity telecommunications connectivity. This is very important. When we were in America we were told that it was important to get our communication systems in order.

There is a substantial decrease in the grants for building. We are a little worried about the advance factories, which we always felt was a very good programme. A deputation from my constituency met the Minister. I thank her for her response, in which she confirmed the establishment of Wexford Enterprise Initiative, which will assist local interests to identify a means of promoting a greater level of industrial investment, including the attraction of international mobile investment to the Wexford region. What is mobile investment? We do not like to see anything mobile coming to Wexford because we want investment to be established there. I asked the secretary to the committee——

It is not on wheels.

I would appreciate if the Minister could explain that. The Department has an annual restriction of about six on the number of BES schemes. I have always argued it is very important to have advance factories available in an area because they encourage a client to establish in that area. Will the Minister consider increasing that number from six?

I hope Deputy D'Arcy does not want them all in Wexford. It is our normal practice to take all the questions first before the Minister replies. Therefore, I will call Deputy O'Flynn and then Deputy Lenihan.

I understand the total contractual obligation in regard to Global Crossing is more than £20 million. I am somewhat concerned that the two telehouses which have been authorised will be in Westlink and the Eastpoint park, both of which are in Dublin.

Those are two very good locations.

I know the Minister's colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, is probably involved in this. I am concerned that one has not been considered for the e-commerce park in Cork. I am concerned that the transatlantic fibre cable will be distributed from these two telehouses. Will it be distributed by service operators, such as Esat? Will that put another layer of financial burden on the users of those facilities in the south? Will other companies which require the use of a telehouse and broadband optic fibre be able to buy or rent directly from Global Crossing, or whichever company will be responsible for the two telehouses? If that question is too technical, the Minister could give me the answer later.

I should declare an interest in regard to subhead 3.3, as I am retained as an adviser to Esat Digifone, which is 40% owned by Esat Telecom, which is also a participant in the Global Crossing connectivity plan. Is it the intention to extend these houses elsewhere? Is it also the plan to provide alternative sites around Ireland? I suspect it is the Government's intention to provide sites in Cork and elsewhere.

In relation to subhead K.3., training for the unemployed, does the Tánaiste have any indicative timetable for the publication or release of her plans for the social economy? As I understand it, that relates to subhead K.3 and there are problems with interim funding for places in operations such as the social economy unit in Tallaght. Other projects are also dependent on interim funding. Can the Tánaiste provide some reassurance for the participants in those schemes?

Subhead K.4 deals with community employment and I would like to know if a similar issue arises there with regard to interim funding pending full funding from the ESF. I would be interested to find out about the social economy aspects of this because the Tánaiste was very fulsome on that aspect when she appeared before the committee on the last occasion. I would like to know when the information regarding plans for the social economy can be published. It would provide reassurance to many such participants as well making a great contribution to economic development.

Deputy D'Arcy mentioned the value of advance factories and we all look after our own parish pump. While two 20,000 sq. ft. advance factories have been completed in Kilkenny, the IDA, which has invested a lot of money in purchasing and developing such sites, should ensure that fibre optic cables are made available to the regions. Such a move would benefit everyone. What progress is being made in that regard and what budget is available to encourage that sort of added value to such advance factories?

In the last few months, were funds available for FÁS training in the hotel industry, particularly to deal with the Y2K problem and other related issues? Is that matter being dealt with under any of these subheads?

I apologise for being late, Chairman, but this meeting clashed with another one. There are problems with FÁS apprenticeship training schemes because there are so many apprentices in the system that neither the Department nor FÁS can cope. People are spending an inordinate amount of time in the training period when they should be moving on to other training phases. Will the Tánaiste comment on that and tell us exactly what the situation is and what is required to address it?

I apologise for being late, Chairman. I may be duplicating questions that have already been put. In many areas it is not possible to obtain buildings for industries that are interested in establishing themselves. Deputy D'Arcy may have raised the matter already, but there was a proposal, which was delayed because of EU considerations, to establish enterprise centres in certain locations. I am not sure whether the proposal was to build such centres adjacent to airports or small towns, but there is a marked absence of opportunities for the establishment of industry in some of the more remote western areas. I speaking in particular about areas like Kilrush which has not seen an industry established for 25 years. In that context, the establishment of units for small industries would be very useful if they could be provided under the IDA's buildings and operations programme.

That concludes the questions to the Tánaiste. I concur with the points that have been raised about advance factories. Some members have been parochial and I should say that such factories would also be welcome in Dublin north central. We recognise that difficulties exist because of a skills shortage. In subheads C.2 and K.5 the Tánaiste refers to training grants to industry and grants for new skills and technology. We are aware that non-nationals applying for work permits are experiencing some difficulty in obtaining them. Does this Estimate attempt to address the issue by putting in place a more user friendly system to respond to the needs of the market place?

Thank you, Chairman. I also thank members of the committee for their comments. As always, when I appear before this committee I receive a large volume of questions. We do not build advance factories anymore. Those of us who have been in the House for a long time will remember when we were critical of taxpayers' money being tied up in such buildings. To a large extent, the private sector can now supply the need in this area with the BES-related benefits. Under the provisions of the Finance Acts we are restricted to eight or nine business expansion schemes per year. IDA Ireland gets six, while Shannon Development and Údarás na Gaeltachta share the remainder. The issue always concerns the most effective way to support advance factories of this kind, or advance buildings because they are not all factories. Some of them are for office or other commercial uses. They have been very successful around the country.

There are other issues. If the private sector supplies a facility of this kind, IDA Ireland may decide to subsidise the rent for a limited period until such time as a taker is found for the facility. However, that can only be done on a limited basis. Deputies are correct in saying that where one has a facility one tends to get a taker. The market is very buoyant. We are getting about 65 new foreign investment projects per year, in addition to the expansion of existing activities. Areas with such facilities or buildings certainly have a head start. It is a chicken and egg situation because the private sector will supply the need in larger towns and cities, but more peripheral regions, such as counties Wexford, Laois and the midlands generally, have not done as well from inward investment as other areas. That is why I established the Wexford initiative to examine the obstacles to industrial investment there.

Such obstacles do not only affect foreign investment because the indigenous sector tends to follow the same pattern. At a time when so much business is coming into the country and so much is happening in the country generally, we want to make sure - in so far as the Government and Government agencies can influence the location of such activity - that the right strategies are in place to do so. I am looking forward to the focused approach those involved in the Wexford initiative will have to issues that can help to redress the difficulties experienced in the county. They will look at the report drawn up by Mr. Peter Bacon, which forms a good foundation for what could or could not happen in Wexford. I look forward to receiving their report.

Mobile investment is not intended to come and go - it is actually foreign investment that is seeking a location. On occasion, it can be moved from elsewhere but, generally, it is a new project in search of a location. Some projects are expansions of existing activities and, therefore, if they are site-specific to companies such as Intel, Hewlett-Packard or IBM, there is a good chance they will expand on their existing campus facilities, although occasionally they might take their activities elsewhere.

Other projects require new facilities and we refer to them as mobile investment, which is overseas investment looking for a home. Ireland currently attracts about 27% of that investment which is coming into Europe, even though it accounts for only 1% of the EU's population. Due to its nature in the hi-tech sector and other knowledge-based industries, such investment tends to locate close to good third level education facilities. Unfortunately, areas that do not have such facilities on their doorstep have not done as well as those that do.

The roll-out of the broad band is one of the main purposes of this Supplementary Estimate. In my opening remarks I said Global Crossing will provide the infrastructure which will give Ireland 15 times the telecommunications capacity at about 15% of the cost. Since we liberalised the telecommunications industry we have over 30 different companies licensed to provide telecommunications facilities. Approximately 12 currently provide telecommunications services in the State. The main players are involved, including Ocean, Esat, Eircom, Worldcom and many others. The cost of those services and the range they supply is much greater than was the case before liberalisation.

Much needs to be done in this area because it is the infrastructure for new business in the information society, especially for e-commerce. The Government decided to provide these facilities jointly with the private sector to ensure that Ireland can become an e-commerce hub in Europe.

The rest of the country, including Kilkenny, will have a roll-out of these services. They are and will be provided by the existing operators such as Esat, Eircom, TGS and others. The intention is that the country will be able to have these facilities on a national basis at about 15% of the cost. We will be able to get into the international network, which will provide us with a huge advantage. It means that an island economy such as ours need not be peripheral in any sense. The use of e-business and having the appropriate facilities, including the people to work in these industries, can ensure that Ireland will do well. We are determined that should be the case.

Training in the hotels and tourism sector is a matter for CERT. That does not come under my Department and I am, therefore, reluctant to comment. There were difficulties but I understand that the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Deputy McDaid, together with the board of CERT, have been able to address some of them and to fill vacant places. There are very exciting opportunities in this sector because tourism is one of the fastest growing industries in the world and Ireland is in a unique position to get an increased share of the tourism market by virtue of the tourism product we offer and our high quality physical environment. There are many golf courses and numerous good hotel and catering facilities, which are nationally much better than a decade ago. There are great opportunities in the sector and I would like to see more young people taking them up.

With regard to skills and non-nationals, over the past 18 months my Department has granted an unprecedented number of permits for non-EEA nationals. If employers can prove to us within reason that they cannot find an EEA national to do a job we do not lay down unreasonable requirements with regard to the granting of permits. If there are difficulties more resources have been allocated to that division in the Department and the delays experienced in the past no longer apply.

Last July the Government decided that asylum seekers who are here for more than a year can work in the economy. It was decided that if employers apply for work permits in respect of such people we would grant them. That has not proved as successful as we anticipated, mainly because employers do not seem to be able to identify the people who qualify. This matter will be before the Cabinet next week - certainly before Christmas - to consider the possibility of issuing a letter of verification to the people that qualify and then allowing them the possibility of seeking employment. I referred to this in the Dáil last week. That may help to solve some of the needs, at least in the short-term.

In the longer term we want to look at a skills based immigration policy because there are major gaps. While there are possibilities with the increased participation of women in the workforce, there will be gaps in some sectors. If these are not filled or if skills shortages were to continue we could become uncompetitive very quickly. In the past we prided ourselves on having people for the new industries and that made Ireland very attractive. If there was a perception abroad that Ireland did not have the people for the jobs we would lose investment possibilities, which would be very damaging to our competitiveness and to the success of the economy we have experienced in recent years. We need an immigration policy that is skills orientated and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I are currently working on proposals to bring to the Cabinet. I hope will be able to do so very soon.

Deputy Daly asked about the EU and approval for tax designation for enterprise zones, and so on. Near the end of its term in office the previous Government designated all the airports as centres for this purpose. EU approval had not been sought and it was not granted. There have been major difficulties with these designations. They expire at the end of the year, but to qualify it is necessary to get EU approval for the project. This means finding a project and securing EU approval before it can participate in the airport or port designations. Rosslare was the only port designated. To the best of my knowledge only one project was located, so it was not successful.

Given our EU membership and the new rules applying to designations, we are severely limited unless something is in the area of non-traded activity or only traded domestically. If anything interferes with or distorts trade within the internal market we cannot use the approaches we have used in the past to make things happen.

The Deputy referred to Kilrush and other areas in west County Clare. This is a matter for Enterprise Ireland. Recently we grant aided a number of enterprise centres, mainly in areas of high unemployment in cities. Some of them were located in other areas so there are possibilities. Enterprise Ireland has an enterprise development programme that includes the provision of enterprise centres. I do not know if Kilrush is on that list but I will communicate with Enterprise Ireland with regard to the promises made.

Money is included in the Estimates for next year for the social economy. It will be run by the social partnership committee that compiled the report in the first instance with involvement by people in my Department. Between the Estimates and the budget there is an unprecedented amount of money for training. A new training fund was announced by the Minister for Finance in the budget. That will be legislated for shortly. A significant part of that - I understand it will be £5 million - will be allocated to training for people with disabilities, which is very worthwhile. The social economy will fulfil an enormous number of the needs of people involved in the voluntary sector in areas that are not commercial at present and may never be so. It has a great capacity to fulfil the needs of many groups in society, especially in the unemployment blackspot areas.

There was concern about delays involving apprentices completing their training. I understand there are seven phases in apprenticeship training and at certain stages within that apprentices are unable to move on to the next phase because the infrastructure cannot cope. Has the Minister any information on that and are there any proposals to rectify it?

I am not aware of the point made by the Deputy. There are pressure points. I understand 17,000 or 18,000 are now involved in apprenticeships - a couple of years ago the figure was approximately 6,000. The resource has expanded rapidly to meet the needs of the industry. We sought to change some of it away from traditional apprenticeships into what we call traineeships and teething problems arose when that was introduced. I believe the problem arises because of the scale of the demand, not only on the physical infrastructure, the training centres, but also on the human resources, the trainers. It is difficult to keep pace with the changes involved. I will make inquiries. I am due to meet the Construction Industry Federation shortly on issues of this kind and I am sure it will raise the matter with me.

I ask the Tánaiste to let the committee know the outcome of her investigations in this area because it is difficult for young people.

I will. The Deputy is talking about people moving from one stage to the next.

Yes. They are caught in a certain stage in many places. That is my understanding of the situation but it is hard to get information on it. A number of young people as well as builders have approached me. It is causing difficulties for them. I would be grateful if the Tánaiste would investigate the matter and see if there are ways of helping both employers and employees and apprentices who are caught in this.

I will come back to the Deputy on that.

What is the timetable for bringing to Cabinet the proposals on the social economy?

The social economy has already been approved by the Cabinet and the money has been provided in the Estimates for next year. It is a question of it being established. Work is ongoing between my Department and the social partners on the establishment and the implementation of the Government decision. I will revert to the Deputy on the detail but it will be up and running next year.

Will the proposals be published then?

Yes. There is an advisory group to monitor, establish and implement all of this. I will send the Deputy details.

I thank the Tánaiste. I appreciate that.

On the subject of work permits for foreign nationals, to which the Tánaiste referred earlier, and the fact that, as she sees it, the economy runs the risk of running into the ground if we cannot supply skilled staff, where does she see this going eventually? We will continue importing industry on the one hand and immigrants on the other? Does she have a policy in this regard? How much more can the country take? Does she have an overall macro idea of where we are going?

Yes. During times of high unemployment Government policy implemented by IDA Ireland was to seek huge job projects for Ireland. This involved a relatively small number of companies because by their nature one would not get a large number of big projects of that kind. Now the policy is to try and go for a larger number of smaller projects and to focus them in regional locations with a view to providing opportunities in the regions. In the national development plan the Government has set a target that 50% of the new green field jobs coming into Ireland over the duration of the plan should go to the Objective One region. Certainly that is something I am determined to see implemented because there are large gaps in the development of particular regions during this time of unprecedented growth.

There are various estimates of the needs of the economy. The labour force was growing at about 2.5% per annum. That figure has fallen to close to 2% per annum. It is still growing and that is an advantage Ireland has over many other countries, particularly European countries. Some 40% of the population is under 25 and that is a big advantage. Notwithstanding that, the needs of the economy require bringing in people. One economist suggested that we needed to bring in a very large number of people. We have not set targets in that regard. In future years we need an additional 250,000, if memory serves me right. A feature of many growing economies like Ireland's is that they have had to look elsewhere to meet their needs. The Israelis, for example, brought in a million people from Russia, mainly mathematicians, physicians and highly educated people to help build up their economy. This is a feature of economies worldwide. The same would apply in the US.

It is almost like asking me "How long is a piece of string?". For as long as the economy continues to grow at these levels and to implement the national development plan, which, in itself, involves a huge commitment of resources, we will need to look outside Europe and at other European countries to fulfil Ireland's skills needs. One of the tasks regarding this new immigration policy is defining where we need the new skills. We need to discuss that with the social partners and reach agreement because we certainly want to do it on a consensus basis. We do not want any unnecessary divisiveness on this issue.

That concludes the discussion on the Supplementary Estimate. I thank the Tánaiste for the forthright way in which she presented it and answered questions. I thank the officials who provide the documentation and back-up information to members and thank the Department for the support it provided to the committee in 1999. We look forward to working with it in the year 2000. On behalf of the committee, I wish the Tánaiste, her officials and the Department a happy, peaceful and holy Christmas and the very best for the year 2000.

On my behalf and on behalf of my officials, we certainly intend to have a happy and peaceful Christmas, whatever about it being holy. I thank you, Chairman, and the committee. As it is the end of a millennium and none of us will be here at the end of the next millennium, we will not be doing this again.

Perhaps they may introduce some tablets which will facilitate that.

Some of these new industries may introduce them. I wish you, the members and their families and the staff a happy Christmas also.

I thank the members, especially those who spoke, for their positive contributions to the examination of the Supplementary Estimate. As the committee will be aware, there is a further meeting scheduled for next week.

Top
Share