Skip to main content
Normal View

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 2000

Vol. 3 No. 17

Estimates for Public Services, 2000.

Vote 34 - Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

I have pleasure in welcoming the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, and her officials, Roddy Molloy, Ronnie Sheehan, Sandra Hogan and Ceola Cronin. We have one item on our agenda today, consideration of the Estimate for the Department Enterprise, Trade and Employment for 2000, which comes under Vote 34. The brief under consideration is the amended version, which has been circulated. I draw members' attention to subhead F1. I also draw their attention to a letter the Clerk to the Committee received from Deputy Rabbitte dated 21 June. It reads:

Re: Estimates Meeting 22nd June 2000

Dear Richard,

Please communicate my apologies to the Tánaiste and members of the committee for my inability to be in attendance tomorrow since the Copyright Bill is at Report Stage all day. It really is unacceptable that this kind of clash should occur - and not for the first time. The Government Whip insisted on rostering the Copyright Bill - this makes it impossible for me as the only member of my party to attend the Committee and the Dáil.

Deputy Rabbitte spoke to me of his concern about missing today's meeting. I already had the opportunity to speak to the Fine Gael spokesperson, Deputy Owen, on this issue, as she is also dealing with the Copyright Bill. However, this matter was discussed by the party Whips and it was agreed in relation to the timing of the Copyright Bill. Members of the committee were aware of the date that was chosen for this Estimates meeting. Therefore, it is outside my control as such, but it is unacceptable when a clash of this nature occurs and party spokespersons are missing.

With the agreement of the parties we will move forward and deal with the Estimate before us. We will proceed to a general discussion on it. I invite the Tánaiste to make her opening remarks on the Estimate for her Department.

I also extend to members the apologies of the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, who is taking the Copyright Bill in the Dáil and those of the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, who is abroad on official business.

I am happy to circulate the script if that is in order, since it is quite long. We discussed this before Deputy Perry arrived. It might be more meaningful if we engaged in questions and answers about the Department's Estimate for £835.116 million net, which is a considerable amount of money. I would be happy for the committee to officially record the script and move on.

Is it agreed to place the script as received in the minutes? Agreed. I also wish to record the apologies of Deputies Stanton, Owen and Rabbitte and the Ministers of State, Deputy Kitt and Deputy Treacy.

Perhaps the committee could go through the Vote item by item.

Is that agreed? Agreed. Members have copies of the briefing material on Vote 34. We should deal with it subhead by subhead. Perhaps we could take subheads A1 to A11, inclusive, together.

Regarding subhead A3, there is a substantial increase in relation to staff training and development. Will the Minister outline why there is such a large increase? What benefits can be expected from it?

Regarding subhead A3.1, there is a considerable increase from £45,000 to £70,000 in relation to entertainment.

That may be for the committee.

I doubt it.

I thought the Deputy might respond by saying "hopefully".

We can manage that ourselves, Chairman.

Perhaps the Tánaiste has good news for the committee in this regard.

I understand that the increase in entertainment is to facilitate the changed management process in the Department which has involved many external meetings, including meetings in hotels and so on. I understand it will also supplement the entertainment budget of the Minister's offices from where much of the official entertainment relating to visiting dignitaries comes.

The Department is taking the issue of staff training seriously under the strategic management initiative. It is important to ensure that those in the front line in dealing with the public service have the appropriate training for the changes that are occurring in the economy. We repeatedly refer to the concept of life long learning and the need for people in employment to be constantly retrained and upskilled. This is true of the private sector but it is equally true of the public sector because an inefficient public sector makes an economy uncompetitive.

The Department has been involved in extensive training at all levels. Much of the training has involved staff from the Department being directly responsible for the training programmes, etc. The strategic management initiative, which is a major reform process within the public service, is taking some time. However, when we reach the necessary end point, there will be a much more dynamic, flexible, efficient and effective public service. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has been one of the lead Departments with regard to training, upskilling and the changed management process.

That is fine.

Is subhead A, which relates to the administrative budget, agreed? Agreed. Subheads B to J, inclusive, relate to enterprise programmes. Is it agreed to take those subheads together? Agreed.

One of the major developments last year, as a result of the Good Friday Agreement, was the establishment of the Trade and Business Development Body. This body will have its first meeting in the Republic next Friday. It would be a good idea if members of the committee met the body at an appropriate stage. I will make that suggestion to the chairman.

Notwithstanding the fact that the institutions were suspended from February until recently, I have been most impressed with the manner in which the body was put and has come together. The Minister, Sir Reg Empey, and the Minister, Dr. Farren, are both determined in the areas of trade, training and education to make it work and I was impressed with the speed at which Sir Reg Empey set about coming to Dublin to arrange a meeting with me and my officials. Subhead B2 relates to the funding for the Trade and Business Development Body which is currently seeking to recruit a chief executive.

As the members are aware, the headquarters of the body are located in Newry. Half the members were nominated by the Irish Government and the other half by the authorities in Northern Ireland, the British Government and the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland. The Republic nominated the chairman of that committee, Mr. Martin Naughton, from Glen Dimplex. He was a most appropriate choice because of his vast experience in business and his huge commitment and concern in relation to North-South issues.

The IDA had a very good year in 1999. The big issue for it is not only the number of jobs that need to be brought to Ireland by way of foreign direct investment but the nature and quality of the jobs. The decision and announcement last week by Intel is typical of the type of approach where we are seeking to get companies to become more embedded in the Irish economy and move more value added activities into Ireland. The new Fab 24 when it is built will be the most advanced wafer fabrication plant in the world. It is a terrific endorsement of the Irish economy and workforce.

The big challenge for the IDA under the national development plan is to get at least half of all the new green field jobs into the Objective One region, which comprises the Border, midlands and western areas. It is a huge task and much work has gone into making that a reality. All the executives who have been working overseas for the IDA in the front line, speaking with companies in foreign markets, have been brought on visits of the various sites and options in that region. I have no doubt that it will be successful. It will be a slow process but it is undoubtedly the right strategy for the economy and the country to ensure balanced regional development. Some places are doing better than others at present, but I have no doubt that the principal towns in the Objective One region will be huge beneficiaries of the new strategy.

Enterprise Ireland, the new organisation that brought together the Trade Board and Forbairt, the company development organisation, has been effective in the short time since its establishment. The marriage is working extremely well and the dynamic that is coming from bringing together people who were essentially involved in marketing Irish products and companies with others who have wider company development responsibilities is good and positive. Support is given to Irish industries in a range of areas, including support for research and development and training and support for business plans and marketing. It is a much more comprehensive package of support.

In recent years we have sought to open technology centres. Three have been opened in the United States. These provide space for new and emerging Irish companies and enable them to get into those markets quickly. Recently I had the honour of opening the centre in Boston. It was almost full before it opened with companies who want to get into the market quickly. Rather than spending time on dealing with logistics, such as arranging legal and accounting firms and getting to know the systems that operate in new countries, Enterprise Ireland can provide that type of support, which is most appropriate.

I welcome the Minister's presentation and support her comment that the Intel investment is a major boost for the country. It sends out a marvellous signal worldwide that Ireland can attract such investment. However, we must be parochial. The Border region in particular and the midlands and west have been devastated. The most recent IDA report indicates a net loss of 921 jobs as against major advancement in the south and the south-east. We have not benefited and are not doing so.

An IDA factory complex outside Cavan town has been lying idle for the past two and a half years in the absence of a tenant. People are becoming alarmed that the jobs available elsewhere are not available in this region. There does not appear to be a major effort to secure jobs. The infrastructure is in place. I do not accept the criticism that the roads are unsatisfactory because the industries in the region, some of which have been there for 25 years and some of which are owned by multinational companies, can operate satisfactorily. However, it has been 25 years since any industry came into the Cavan-Monaghan region, never mind the Border region as a whole. I ask the Minister to take this on board. The present situation is unfair and unacceptable. We are losing our best young people.

I am delighted to note the Minister's comments on Mr. Reg Empey, the Northern Ireland industry Minister and his role in cross-Border co-operation. His involvement in the trade and business development bodies is very important. The six northern and southern counties comprising the Border region require huge development. Massive development is ongoing in the northern Six Counties, but the southern six counties comprise an area of special need. They have suffered the most from the violence of the past 30 years.

A couple of months ago the Minster announced a large and small town initiative programme where jobs would be focused. Certain towns were prioritised for IT development, where smaller towns were designated 10,000 square feet of work space while larger towns were designated 30,000 square feet. Despite this, the northern economy is way ahead of the six counties on the southern side of the Border, although this is not the case in respect of the remaining 20 counties. Deputy Boylan outlined the massive deprivation in terms of job creation.

Sligo is a natural growth centre for the north-west. A new large employer is needed in this region. Abbott Ireland Limited is hugely successful. The ESB has enhanced the growth potential of the region. In addition to cross-Border development, representatives from the six southern Border counties should work more closely with the cross-Border developments. While the economy has boomed in recent years, very few jobs have been created in the Border counties. There has been job replacements, but very little net increases. We expected a big project two years ago, but it did not materialise. Something like that is required.

There are considerable increases in Enterprise Ireland grants for administration and general expenses. Some time ago I put down a parliamentary question about the closure of a 20,000 square foot unit in Tubbercurry. Westpack Presentations Limited owned it for Cross biros, for whom it was engaged in packaging. The contract was lost and the company closed with the result that the unit has been closed for the past three years. It is on a three and a half acre site. Tubbercurry qualifies for capital allowances through the urban renewal scheme. The lack of a replacement at that site is a huge loss.

It is very difficult to get grants from Enterprise Ireland for home industry. I am involved in a community-based company in Ballymoe. We acquired a three and a half acre site on which a 6,200 structure is being built. I contacted Barry Egan of Enterprise Ireland to seek additional funding because we have a huge number of people looking for work space, but our application was refused.

The county enterprise development fund has been only marginally increased. The enterprise boards deal with small industries which create up to ten jobs. Small companies are not getting the help they require. The overall budget allocation to the enterprise boards is £24 million, which is very small. If administrative costs are deducted there is virtually nothing left. I know people who have approached the enterprise boards only to be told that there is no money available. They are referred everywhere else. Given the current rate of inflation, there is an effective reduction in the allocation to the loan subsidy for small business.

The trade and business development body is one of six cross-Border implementation bodies established under the British-Irish Agreement Act. In view of the fact that we have at last secured peace in the North of Ireland, are there not great opportunities for development and co-operation between this State and the Six Counties? The allocation of £5.688 million under this subhead appears to be very small. There are numerous opportunities here. Over the summer this committee intends to make contact with the Northern Ireland trade boards to ascertain the prospects of co-operation between the South and the North.

What action has the Government taken on this issue? For many years co-operation was not possible, but it is happening today. While the Minister argues that the allocation has increased from £68,000 last year to £5.688 million today, it is inadequate in view of the potential developments between the North and the South in terms of trade.

With regard to subhead B.2, the trade and development body, I understand what is trying to be achieved here. However, in view of the new relationships being built in Northern Ireland and the possibility of further trade between the North and the South, is it possible to examine the structure of businesses in the North to determine if they would consider an expansion programme and, in doing so, locate in parts of the South? IDA companies which have located in the capital city now find they want to expand their workforce and premises. Will they be allowed to consider expanding in rural Ireland, to locations where the IDA has advance factories? It would mean that not all their expansion would occur in a city that is already congested. This might solve the IDA's problem with the number of advance factories around the country lying idle.

With regard to the grant for building operations, the IDA constructed a new advance factory in Kilkenny on a site in a digital park on which it spent a considerable amount of money. It has been idle for almost two years. A non-profit-making company in Kilkenny built a second factory in the digital park with the support of the BES, which is linked to the IDA. That premises is lying idle at present.

I am interested in discovering the level of interest IDA Ireland has in bringing good quality high-tech jobs to the regions. Why is everyone, including Opposition Members, continuing to refer to the need for development in places such as Galway, Cork, Dublin and Waterford when these urban centres have reached saturation point and the infrastructure therein cannot cope? Why do people continue to state that these places will continue to be major centres of growth, when other areas situated nearby could offer the same quality of life and infrastructure? I am gravely disappointed by IDA Ireland's response in respect of these matters.

Would the Minister consider it sensible to build further on investments that have already been made? For example, surely we can develop on the infrastructure already in place in an urban growth centre such as Kilkenny, particularly in view of its nearness to such third level institutions as Waterford Institute of Technology and Carlow Institute of Technology. Given current developments in technology and the existence of an outreach in Kilkenny, the Government should, through the Department of Education and Science, work with IDA Ireland to market Kilkenny as a location with access to a number of IT facilities and good quality digital parks.

An argument has been put forward in respect of the funding of county enterprise boards which states that they were originally established because the economy was in distress and they were needed to promote the development of local indigenous business. This goal has been achieved and the moneys we are allocating to the boards in the form of grants are being clawed back. In other words they are no longer grants, they are merely soft loans. That should not be the case.

The greatest challenge to the development of the IT industry in this country is the uptake by SMEs of the concept to which I refer and they are simply not taking it up because they do not have either the necessary staff or skilled operatives to allow them to deal with the new e-economy. Therefore, there is a need for funding to be provided, through the enterprise boards, to support that initiative. If such support is given, we will not only encourage the creation of jobs within the county enterprise board structure, we will also promote the development of the new e-economy. I am interested in hearing more about that aspect of the allocations being made by the Department.

I am here in the absence of Deputy Rabbitte who, as he informed the committee by letter, will be involved in a debate in the Dáil for the remainder of the day.

I already read Deputy Rabbitte's letter into the record. I welcome Deputy Broughan to the committee.

I was proud to serve as a member of this committee in the past.

The system of dealing with the Estimates on a yearly basis is very disconcerting, particularly in view of the fact that today we are discussing moneys which have already been allocated for expenditure in the current year. We are, therefore, discussing something which has already happened. The Labour Party, Fine Gael and other parties have ideas about how the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment should develop in 2001, but there is no system where we can make an input in that regard. I accept that we can make comments at this meeting but we cannot try to quantify the budgets which may be allocated to different areas next year.

Deputy Jim Mitchell and his colleagues on the Committee of Public Accounts are trying to bring forward suggestions about Dáil reform, particularly in respect of encouraging greater accountability. There should be a system, perhaps based on the Dutch system, where Opposition parties are provided with civil service resources to allow them to try to develop a package of measures for the following budget which can be submitted to the Government. If we used such a system, we could have a real discussion on the Estimates for 2001. Perhaps we could consider the development of such a system in the context of Dáil reform.

With regard to Forfás and subhead B.2, one of the key problems I have encountered during the past 12 months or so relates to the social economy. The Minister referred to a figure of £10 million and the amount of money she intends to invest in this area. However, the Chairman and I are members of the same partnership area board and we have found it disconcerting to receive letters from the Department which seem to say that we should encourage businesses to start up in our incubator small business units, that these concerns must learn to survive in the marketplace and, if they are not able to do so, further support will not be forthcoming from the Department.

This matter relates to the jobs initiative which is supported by FÁS. I compliment that body on its extraordinary achievements in supporting the work of the Department in recent years. A plethora of jobs have been created in the social economy and they are extremely important to deprived rural and urban areas. However, the administrators of social employment projects are concerned about what will happen in the future. Will supports be given to local resource centres, local research projects etc? There is a very successful gardening and environmental business in the Darndale area of my constituency and I wonder if its continued efforts will be supported.

The criteria for continued support for the projects to which I refer which the Minister has sent out, through PLANET and the partnerships, appear to be purely market oriented. If that is the case, this area would be better dealt with by IDA Ireland or Enterprise Ireland. Will the Minister comment on this matter in order to reassure those involved in the projects to which I refer? The Taoiseach addressed the Dublin North presentation by FÁS last week, at which 500 of the 7,000 voluntary groups from the north county area, which has a population of between 300,000 and 400,000, were represented.

How can we ensure that the work of these groups will be allowed to continue when the Tánaiste appears to be stating that their activities should be much more market oriented? It might be good if they were more cognisant of the realities of economic life, such as paying wages etc., but nonetheless it appears that a large number of jobs must be created in the social economy or else the good infrastructure we have established will collapse.

Will the Tánaiste provide reassurances, particularly in respect of the jobs initiative? Deputy Rabbitte has tabled questions on numerous occasions to the Tánaiste in relation to the jobs initiative. What guarantees is the Tánaiste in a position to give to those involved in this area? We are all familiar with people who have been successful, on a personal basis, through their involvement with schemes such as the jobs initiative. Obviously, some of these people want to become involved in the open economy while others would prefer to continue the valuable work they are doing in their communities.

I congratulate the Tánaiste on her recent announcements about Intel and its impact on the greater Dublin region. She is to be commended for encouraging the Intel organisation to expand its huge operation on the Kildare-Dublin border. Intel has had a very positive impact on north Dublin and, indeed, the rest of the Leinster region. The company draws some of its workforce from Carlow, Mullingar and so on. The Tánaiste will have seen P. J. Drudy's excellent studies which indicate that if one ignores a certain part of south Dublin, one will see that the remainder of the city and county is still home to the most severe pockets of unemployment and deprivation. What action is the Tánaiste taking to address this situation?

A number of members have referred to the problem of saturation in urban areas. This problem exists because of a failure to make the necessary infrastructural investment in the Dublin region during the past 30 years. Three years ago, the Minister and I were at a meeting on Luas - we were probably the only two politicians present. We sought dramatic moves, yet three years later I still do not see what I would like, and I believe this was also the Minister's view on the day in question, which is a DART-Metro for Dublin. We are three years on from that meeting, the Taoiseach and the Minister were supposed to fast-track this and it has not happened. When can we see dynamic movements on infrastructure, especially for deprived areas such as Tallaght, Clondalkin, the greater Coolock area and so on? I know the Minister is not directly responsible, but we cannot service and reach those pockets and parishes where, as the Chairman will be aware, there is still 50% unemployment.

I spent some time in Tipperary over the past three weeks, as the Minister is probably aware, and I am very impressed with——

Can the Deputy predict the result for me?

I hope the Labour Party will be back to a fuller strength and we will have another woman in the Dáil.

That is a big hope.

We could do with some more women TDs.

We all agree with that.

We have the largest percentage of any party, or have we? Actually, we do not.

Give us more like the Minister, certainly.

We have some things in common.

Obviously there are pockets of rural poverty as well and there are obviously some towns in rural areas which are not doing well. I would not disagree with colleagues on that, but we should not forget these areas of Dublin. One hears clichés in the media about saturation. We know there are huge parishes with massive unemployment and we need to do something dynamic in those areas.

My last point relates to the Competition Authority and this is within the Minister's remit. The Minister always prided herself on the fact that this was an area where her party would make an impact. Is it not a fact that the inflationary pressures we now endure are primarily due to the fact that, after three years as Tánaiste, with her party in a significant role in Government, she has allowed the cartels in many significant areas to dominate our economy and to raise prices at will?

Before I call the Minister, I support the previous speaker's comments about an appropriate infrastructure, especially for the greater Dublin area with the traffic congestion we experience. Only this week the Minister responded to a question I tabled, which is not the first time I have done so, on an appropriate underground, which most other European capitals have, suitable to meet the needs of the Dublin area for the 21st century.

On subhead B.2, which relates to the trade and business development body established under the Good Friday Agreement, it is our intention to meet that body as soon as possible and I will ask the Clerk to the committee to work with your office to see how quickly that meeting can be arranged. It was recommended by the committee some months ago. It may even have been our intention to meet it prior to the collapse of the Executive.

I welcome the increase in the allocation for the Enterprise Ireland grants to industry and for capital expenditure. Perhaps you could forward clarification - it does not have to be now - as to exactly to whom and what those grants are going. I welcome the allocation for county enterprise development and I hope, after the gestation of the enterprise boards, they may be able to increase their activity to meet the demands they now recognise as required.

Moving on to subhead H.2, I welcome the allocation for the small business operational programme to support measures for small businesses.

Thank you, Chairman. I will endeavour to answer the questions members have put to me. As I believe I said in my opening remarks, I fully share the views expressed on the Border area and other less developed regions of the country. It is true there has been a net loss in the number of jobs in that region as shown in the most recently published IDA report. That is because of the substantial job losses last year in Fruit of the Loom in Donegal.

However, we have had some interesting developments in that region, especially in Letterkenny where we have had some new and exciting companies. One is in the health care management business and the other is Prudential Life. There is a great deal of interest in Letterkenny and Donegal. MBNA, for example, which is the largest credit card company in the world, has decided to locate a major facility in Carrick-on-Shannon, and that is a positive development. I see many towns in that region, which have not done well in the past, being able to catch up during the economic boom.

There is sometimes a great deal of misunderstanding about the IDA. There are 1.7 million people in the workforce, 124,000 of whom work in IDA companies. Those companies paid £1 billion in corporation tax last year and they account for £26 billion in exports. They make an enormous contribution to the country way beyond the size in terms of the workers in the companies because of the nature of the activities they conduct in this country. The vast majority of people who work do not work in an IDA company. Nonetheless, it appears that, in many parts of the country, areas often see the solution to their economic difficulties as resting solely with the IDA. The IDA's job is to market the positives of Ireland to international companies and it has done an extremely good job in very difficult circumstances. We win about 23% of all the mobile investment coming from the United States into Europe, even though we have less than 1% of the population.

What the IDA has been particularly good at is being an early mover in certain new areas of business, such as the software sector, for example, which was a developing sector in the early 1980s. The IDA immediately targeted that and succeeded in attracting key players from that sector into Ireland. It began with IBM in 1982 and now seven of the top ten independent software houses in the world have a major facility here, which is incredible. Again, in an earlier period, the IDA targeted the health care-pharmaceutical-chemical sector and nine of the top ten pharmaceutical companies in the world have a major facility here. More recently the issue of shared services has arisen where companies bring a great deal of back office activities together and, instead of having an operation in several different countries in Europe, they bring it all together in a pan-European operation. We have at least 35, if not more, major companies with a shared services facility in Ireland.

The next area of business is e-business. Most companies I have met have also looked at many other countries. It is not a decision to go to Ireland and see where in Ireland they will go. The recent Intel investment we secured, which is worth £1.5 billion, will make its total investment in Ireland worth £3.5 billion, which is incredible. It will involve 1,500 construction jobs. All the staff for that facility will be third level graduates. That influences location. Clearly, in the case of Intel, it wanted to expand its existing location, given that it made the decision to come to Ireland. However, there was intense competition for the new facility from both Israel and the United Kingdom and, on many occasions, we thought we had lost it. Sometimes companies do not want all their eggs in one economy, but we are the only country in Europe where Intel has a manufacturing facility.

Having got a company interested in coming to Ireland, the IDA then shows it a number of specific sites in Ireland, depending on the requirements. Almost no one is being shown Dublin now. It is not being promoted. Some companies will stay in or come to Dublin, but it is not being promoted. The places which are really being promoted now are the smaller or more provincial towns, especially in the Objective One region. Companies want to know will they get the workers in the area. I have repeatedly told companies that they will find it easier if they go to a regional location because, once they get their staff, they will be able to hold them. In a buoyant labour market, staff mobility is becoming a crucial factor for many companies.

Many people want to move out of the larger cities, especially Dublin, for reasons of congestion, housing and quality of life. We have seen that time and again. The two companies which located in Donegal were amazed at the level of interest people had in wanting to work there. Coca Cola, when it advertised last year for 150 people in Ballina, received a couple of thousand expressions of interest. Undoubtedly, MBNA will not have a problem in Carrick-on-Shannon. Kilkenny is obviously the type of place that sells itself. My Department made a commitment to Kilkenny with the Patents Office and perhaps more commitments of that nature can be made.

Having got a company interested in Ireland, it is taken to a number of locations where there is an existing facility. That often comes at the top of the list because whether it involves production or service jobs companies want to start quickly and do not want to spend time on construction related issues. Places which have a facility tend to be promoted rapidly. Clearly in the case of the BES related advance factory in Kilkenny where the IDA is probably subsidising the rent, it is in the IDA's interest to get it off its books quickly so that it does not have to continue to subsidise the rent. It is not always easy to get companies to agree to a particular location. At the end of the day the company makes the choice. It cannot be any other way. Otherwise companies would not come and it would not be good policy from Ireland's point of view if it was known that restrictions were placed on them. What we have to do is to sell the positive aspects of the country and try to promote particular locations. Recently there has been huge success.

There are places which are easier to promote than others especially those towns which are close to a third level education facility, particularly a university, but not exclusively so, because so many of the new jobs created by the indigenous Irish sector and the foreign companies require third level education or post-leaving certificate third level education, possibly a one year course or even less, or a diploma or degree related education. In many cases fourth level education is required in the case of biotechnology and so on. Given that the unemployment rate is at 4.6% and long-term unemployment is down to 1.7%, a big national effort will have to be made if we want to create opportunities for those individuals in society who do not have it. I agree with the points about access and transport related issues.

The basic problem for many people in my constituency and in Deputy Broughan's constituency and other constituencies close to west Tallaght which is on the doorstep of the Citywest development which gets new and more dynamic companies to locate there every day is that nobody from west Tallaght works in any of those companies because they do not have the skills. That is why in the national development plan 25% of the spend is on education and training on what is called "human capital", human resource development. Anyone who wants a job in Ireland within reason can get it but the issue as we move on and become a more high-tech knowledge based economy, a higher wage economy, will be higher quality jobs requiring a higher level of education. Members will note from the Estimates the higher spend for training for the employed as well as the unemployed. Those in existing jobs will have to develop their skill base and will have to up-skill because by the nature of things those companies will be moving up the value chain.

The strategy of Enterprise Ireland which is a much larger organisation than the IDA is to seek to give support to indigenous Irish companies. Most of the financial support tends to be through equity investment and Enterprise Ireland has had some very successful investments from which taxpayers have benefited enormously. For example, many of the members will have seen recently that when they disposed of their investment in a company they realised £27 million. There are many other companies where Enterprise Ireland has made wise investments. The companies needed that investment at the time. In addition to making the equity investment, an equity investor always has an interest in giving advice, help and professional services to a company and he or she takes an ongoing and long-term interest in the company. Much of the support is by way of advice, opening doors, strategising with companies and particularly in the traditional sector helping them to have a more forward-looking approach.

In 1973 we did an analysis when compiling the legislation for Enterprise Ireland and found that of the 113 manufacturing companies which got grant aid none exist today. In the past we were good at grant-aiding operations, giving people money and assuming that was the end of the story. If companies have only a single market such as the UK and it goes badly, they can go under. If companies are not innovative, do not invest in new technology, do not diversify in terms of their markets, do not develop new products given that the life cycle of products is getting shorter all the time, do not involve themselves in research and development, up-skilling their workforce and taking a broad but focused approach in terms of the issues that have to be dealt with, they will not succeed. Enterprise Ireland is seeking to reposition many Irish companies. At the bottom end is the more traditional sector, at basic manufacturing level it is more difficult because wages in Morocco are one seventh of what they are in Ireland. One can go further afield in India on even less. These are our competitors in the global marketplace.

The enterprise boards were set up at a time of high unemployment. They focus on small micro enterprises which, in the main, tend to be companies which are not trading internationally but domestically, although not exclusively so. In smaller places they have done an extremely important job and they have much credibility. However, there is inconsistency with regard to them. Recently I came across an example of one enterprise board grant-aiding a nursing home on the border of one county while the enterprise board of the other county did not grant-aid a similar nursing home. The nursing home which was grant-aided could afford to develop and expand a fairly luxurious facility. The competitor in a different enterprise board area came to me and said it was not fair. It did not appear fair but enterprise boards have discretion. The whole essence of devolving power to bodies or regions is to give people discretion. The Chairman will be aware we did this in relation to taxis, but the discretion was not used.

The Minister made a mistake at the time.

When the Chairman talked about competition and cartels I thought I would hear great things. This brings me to the issue of competition and inflation. This Government and any Government has very few tools left in a Euro zone environment. We cannot influence interest rates. We cannot make decisions in relation to devaluation or revaluation of our currency. The only effective weapon left is competition policy. There is no doubt that those sections of the economy that are exposed to international competition tend to be more dynamic, productivity levels are higher, productivity growth in the internationally traded services sector is about seven times higher than in the non-traded sector, inflation is much lower and in some cases prices are falling. We have only to look at what is happening in Telecom where there are now 30 companies licensed in this market, 12 of which are providing services. The range of services available is much wider than before at a fraction of the cost. The clothing and textile sector is in the same position. However, there are some areas where we do not have a competitive market. That is why the Government has to use, albeit for a temporary period until we get a competitive market through other measures which take time, appropriate competition——

Why did the Minister agree to restrictions in different trades, for example, in the planning of shopping centres and in different areas? She mentioned taxis. Why did she agree to these restrictions?

I did not agree to any restrictions. In relation to taxis, the Government made a decision, which has been very controversial and has been challenged legally, that as a way of bringing more taxis onto the Dublin market quickly, there would be a one for one arrangement. There are two ways to introduce competition, one of which is to completely deregulate, which would have been my preferred option, except that many people invested heavily in the taxi business. The taxi, unlike a property, is a devaluing asset in terms of the car - the real value is the taxi licence. It was considered, taking all these factors into consideration, being reasonable to those who had invested heavily and ensuring that more taxis could be got into the market speedily, that the one for one arrangement would have brought 3,000 more taxis onto the Dublin market. I hope it is a step on the way to full deregulation. The same happens in regard to other issues where there is a licensing regime. Contrary to what some think, I do not make all the decisions. I may be blamed for all the decisions people do not like. A coalition Government is about giving and taking and reaching agreement, it is not about getting one's own way - I am not a dictator or a bully. It is about reaching agreement, arriving at a consensus and then defending it.

I hope we will not have another programme "The Last Word" after this.

Thank you, Chairman. There are two issues, one of which is the question of cartels and the Competition Authority now has the resources. As everybody knows, we had some difficulties with the authority. Two members of the authority resigned and moved on to other positions. A number of professional staff moved to other regulators in the main. I understand six of the seven who left went to work for other regulators. I am not saying they left because the salary scale was better, but it clearly was better, and that was unsatisfactory. We now have a new chairman and a new member of the authority. They have the full complement in terms of the authority membership and they have recently been given substantially increased resources by way of professional staff. I had a meeting with the chairman of the authority and I understand he has met this committee. He is a very dynamic individual who has returned from the United States. He is Irish and he has a lot of experience both as a practitioner in this area and as an academic. I am confident he will ensure that competition law is fully enforced because having the law in place is one thing but enforcing it is far more important.

In relation to the North-South trade body, this body is jointly funded by the Irish and the Northern side. It is funded proportionately in the sense that we are putting in £5.68 million and our counterparts in the North are putting in £3.912 million, giving a total of £9.6 million. This body will be small and succinct. It will not be a huge bureaucracy. Some people wanted the body's headquarters to be located in Newry and many people wanted a sub-office in the Republic, but I opposed that. People may say I should have supported it or suggested it should be opened in a particular location, but I do not believe the body could operate efficiently and effectively if it was sub-divided in such a way. Having various sub-offices throughout the country is not useful, particularly when we are trying to bring some economic dividend to the peace process. Trade between North and South has increased a good deal since the first IRA ceasefire in 1994, but it is still very low. I see great potential for increased trade and a new synergy developing between companies North and South, particularly in the area of science and technology and so on.

I had a lengthy meeting with the chairman recently and he has fantastic ideas on how we can develop positive links, but if the budget becomes an issue the Irish Government will not be found wanting in terms of the budgetary requirements of that body. We want it to succeed. Members would be wrong in assuming that the more money that is put into something, the more effective it will be. If this body appoints a good chief executive - it has an excellent board - the small number of staff will make a major impact in terms of being quite focused on what they can do.

There were issues in which I wanted the body to have a role and which the Irish Government would have strongly supported, but that was not acceptable to the Unionist community in Northern Ireland. We have to move slowly and sensitively because these matters have a political dynamic as well. I would have been happy to see the body with a role in overseas investment, but that was not acceptable to the Unionist community in Northern Ireland. The body will, however, get credibility in time and perhaps more functions can be allocated to it once people have confidence that it is not about taking over but about building and working together. I hope I have covered all the points raised by members. If there is anything I have not covered I would be delighted to do so.

I would like to mention one issue which is appropriate. Deputy D'Arcy, who is from Wexford, is here and he will be aware that Wexford has not done well in terms of industrial development, notwithstanding the fact that it is relatively close to Dublin. It is a pleasant place but, as the Deputy knows, it has not been easy to get companies to take an interest in that part of Ireland for many reasons. The recent task force made some worthwhile suggestions on moving forward. Many Irish companies are now restructuring their operations and many of them find it difficult to operate from a Dublin base. It is difficult to get staff, it is costly, there are congestion problems and so on, and Enterprise Ireland has engaged with some of the bigger Irish companies with a view to getting them to move some of their operations out of Dublin. I see good potential from that exercise for some of the counties that have not done well. The response to date has been positive. No announcements have been made yet, but there is a good deal of interest from major Irish companies to devolve some of their activities out of the city centre to regional locations.

I thank the Tánaiste for her lengthy reply. I would remind members that we have spent about 40 minutes on that subhead. We now move on to subheads K to M, N to Q, R to S, T and U to Y. If we are to give each subhead the same amount of time we will be here until approximately 3 o'clock. I hope members are prepared to sit until 3 o'clock so that we can deal with the Estimate. Do members wish to have a break at this stage or conclude the Estimates before lunch? I am in the hands of the committee. We have had ample opportunity to deal with issues raised in relation to subheads B to J and we got a detailed response to all the questions asked. With the agreement of the committee we will agree subheads B to J and move on to the next grouping we have agreed to take.

I would like to make one point about INTERREG funding.

I am sorry, Deputy Perry, but if I allow you to make one point I will have to allow other members to do so if they wish. I would like to take the opportunity to raise an issue with the Tánaiste that we touched on which is slightly outside the Estimate, namely, taxis. I was pleased to hear the Tánaiste say she wanted to get taxis quickly into the marketplace. I work closely with the taxi industry and I am pleased that as a result of my discussions with the industry we had a mechanism which would put additional licences in place to meet the market demands and there was agreement from the industry. The announcement in November-December did not help and matters quickly came to a full stop. Those licences that would have been issued this year have also been stopped, as Deputy Broughan knows, so we have actually back-tracked since that Government announcement. That is regrettable and it is causing serious complications. We should acknowledge also that the carriage office and the director of traffic can only process a certain number through the system at any given time so people should not have the idea that we can process a huge number of licences in an office that does not have the appropriate supports. It is not possible.

I would be happy to discuss with the Tánaiste, outside this public arena, the way we can reach agreement on a mechanism to get more taxis quickly onto the market, which is urgently needed. Perhaps it is not appropriate to go into any more detail on the subject other than to offer a means of moving forward.

Having solved the Dublin taxi crisis, could we mention the INTERREG funding?

That is the point I tried to raise earlier. The cross-Border funding has been reduced considerably and that is inappropriate at a time of cross-Border development.

It is equally as important as the Dublin taxis.

The real funding is for cross-Border community enterprise development which has been very effective in creating many jobs in these areas. I am disappointed with the size of the reduction in that funding.

This is an EU-related programme, as the Deputy knows.

Yes, but it is very successful.

Yes, but all grants are to be paid by 30 September 2001, so effectively it is a natural run-down in the payment of moneys. This was a 1994 to 1999 programme.

Does the Tánaiste envisage that concept of funding being promoted after that period?

We are allocating the money that was in the 1994 to 1999 programme. As we come to the end of it on 30 September 2001, there will be a natural run-down in the amount that will be left to be spent.

Will this scheme be renewed?

It is an EU related scheme. To the best of my knowledge, it will not be abolished. All such schemes are being renegotiated in the next round of funds. INTERREG is a fairly fundamental scheme across the Union.

Under that initiative a large amount of work was carried out in the Border region. A vast number of jobs, mainly in small sized companies, were created under it. It has been very worthwhile.

We have agreed subheads B to J. We will move on to subheads K to M, which relate to labour force development.

I wish to introduce a matter that may not strictly come under the subheads under discussion. In doing so, I am following the lead given by the Chairman who referred to the issue of taxis. Will the Minister outline her views on the hackney industry, which seeks access to the use of bus lanes, which is very much needed? I raise this matter as an aside and the Minister may or may not wish to respond to it, as is her right.

The Minister touched on the issue of the high cost of motor insurance in her opening statement and I would like to hear her views on it. I notice consultants are to carry out research on the contributory factors to the high cost of motor insurance. In the context of the fight against inflation, the Government must seek to ensure that the cost of insurance for motorists, particularly young drivers, which is a matter of major concern to them, is lowered. I understand that comes under the subheads under discussion.

It comes under subheads R to S. It is not under the subheads under consideration.

I will leave that matter until we come to deal with those subheads.

Under the subheads under consideration, in relation to URBAN II, a number of groups in my constituency, in particular the South Dublin Urban Initiative, have sought clarification on the processing of this scheme in the Department. On the last occasion we discussed this matter there was a demand to make a bid for the projects concerned. I understand they will be awarded centrally under URBAN II. Will the Minister clarify the position, as I have received a number of representations on this matter from the South Dublin Urban Initiative, which is concerned as to whether the participatory element will be included this time or whether the areas chosen for it will be awarded centrally?

Concerns were expressed in the Tallaght area about the extension of the second phase of the jobs initiative up to 20 October. A total of 140 places are to be filled in the Tallaght area under the next round. There seems to be evidence that people who participated in the first phase of the initiative have not moved on to take up employment. In the event of moving on such participants, I presume the Department would be concerned that unfair dismissal issues might arise. It is important that those who play an important role in particular projects are kept on but that other people who are fit for the marketplace are moved towards it.

FÁS training courses are excellent, but some people, particularly those in rural areas, are confused about the standard of such courses. The jobs that can be secured through FÁS are excellent, there is nothing wrong with them. People employed in them do meaningful work.

I am aware of young people who took up FÁS training courses in computer technology in Finglas. They got marvellous training over a 12 month period and as a result were able to advance in their employments. I do not want to create a rural-urban divide on this issue, but I cannot understand how there are pockets of unemployed in certain areas, to which Deputy Broughan referred, when such services are available to those people on their doorsteps. That is in contrast to the position presented to people from rural areas who must travel to urban areas to take up such courses and cover the cost of their accommodation.

There is a perception that one is not going anywhere if one gets involved with FÁS, but that is wrong. I am not sure whether that is down to the manner in which its courses are promoted. If one talks to young people or the parents of teenagers who are doing FÁS courses, one would get the impression that those courses are not highly thought of, although I am fully aware they are excellent. From my experience, I am aware of the high standard of its courses. I want to highlight that and compliment FÁS on that. Deputy Broughan referred to pockets of unemployment and the Minister said that people within the catchment area of Intel are not capable of taking up the jobs on offer. Some FÁS courses are of a third level standard. There must be something seriously wrong in the way those courses are promoted, given that many young people are not taking them up. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that matter. FÁS is doing marvellous work in terms of its schemes and training courses.

I note Deputy Boylan's comments about FÁS courses. FÁS must be commended on its outstanding achievements and on the way in which its levels of training have been geared upwards - the Minister referred to a fourth level. FÁS is in the process of selecting a new chief executive officer. As I understand, Dr. Lynch will become the chief executive of the CIE group of companies. Will the Minister comment on the process involved in that?

Subhead K.4 deals with community employment. What is the up-to-date position on the jobs initiative, given the concerns expressed about it by many members of communities?

The Minister did not respond to the point about the social economy programme which comes under subhead K.9. That programme provides for many valuable community projects. Under what appear to be strict market-oriented guidelines from the Department on this programme, many worthwhile projects would cease to exist. Will the Minister outline what supports will be available under this programme, given that business projects which are making money and have received some supports have been developed on the north side of Dublin?

Subhead L.1 deals with the local employment service. I met some delegations from local employment service groups around the country in the past, which other Deputies might also have met, and those people were concerned about their future position - I asked the Minister a question about that on the Order of Business. Those representatives have since calmed down, but they were concerned that the establishment of a separate company and the direction being taken by the Minister on this area would downÍgrade their positions and that the existence of two separate employment services is not the most cost effective approach. We are aware that the LES has done a brilliant job in many areas of the country. Its mentoring system, which incorporates a one-to-one approach, enabled people who had dropped out of school to gear up their training. In answer to Deputy Boylan's question, young people drop out of school in fourth, fifth and sixth class.

From the findings of our own studies on the residual unemployed, that group tends to be made up of older men, women who have not returned to the workforce, quite a number of people with disabilities and quite a number who have serious problems such as an addiction. I appreciate that Comhairle has been established, but what action does the Minister envisage can be taken to encourage people with disabilities who want to work and people with serious addiction problems who come from the most deprived urban areas, who also want to work, to become part of the general workforce?

I will deal with subhead K.3 which refers to FÁS training for the unemployed. I come from the south-east and, as the Minister said, there is a high level of unemployment in that region, not only in Wexford but in Carlow, Kilkenny and Waterford, despite a recent announcement that a new industry will open in Waterford. The amount allocated under this subhead represents a reduction on the 1999 allocation. There are currently 150,000 unemployed. The greatest number of complaints I receive relate to people who are not able to get onto FÁS courses. I refer to those concerned, truck drivers, plasterers, carpenters, block layers, electricians etc. If proper training is provided for the unemployed and such people subsequently secure employment, that has a spin-off effect in terms of money to the Exchequer. This a serious problem in our area and it needs to be rectified quickly. A lorry driver told me recently that he applied for a FÁS course two years ago. He had been in contact with FÁS but had been unable to get a place on the course. I have received the same complaint from blocklayers and plasterers. A contractor in my area told me that half his blocklayers and carpenters are from the North of Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

This is an ongoing problem and I am sorry there is a reduction in the allocation under this subhead. The problem has a spin off effect in terms of people getting employment and leaving the live register. People would rather work than be unemployed. There was a time when the differential between unemployment benefit and wages was small. The difference today is large and most people are working for more than the minimum wage of £4.40 an hour. The general wage is approximately £7 an hour and people do not want to be unemployed. However, employers will not take people on unless they are trained.

I appeal to the Minister to consider our area. There was a task force and recommendations, including providing proper training in the Wexford area, were made to the Minister. However, that has not happened. I come from the north of the county where the situation is not as bad as in Enniscorthy, Ross and Wexford town. It is unacceptable that 2,500 people are still unemployed in Wexford town. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider this subhead in the context of training for the unemployed.

Subhead K2 relates to FÁS and 8,000 apprentices and that figure is most encouraging. Will the Minister consider the block release system which operates under the apprenticeship scheme because it can be difficult for employers to give apprentices time off for courses? The system could be greatly improved. The accreditation of qualifications is also most important. It is encouraging that the number of new registrations is likely to reach 8,000 this year. However, it is also important that accreditation is given. Due to the problems involved in the block release system for employers, people are leaving without getting their full qualifications. They are tempted by the money available and this area should be considered.

Subhead K6 states that the 2000 Estimate will facilitate the ordered winding down of the Jobsearch programme which encourages employers to fill new or existing vacancies with long-term unemployed people. Why is that scheme being wound down?

Subhead K4 relates to grants for community employment schemes. The three year rule, under which people are ineligible for schemes after three years, is causing certain concerns. People must take time out if they have been on a scheme for three years.

That concludes the discussion on subheads K to M.

I wish to ask a question about subhead K. I am sorry I was late. I was present at 10.30 a.m. but I had to attend to other business involving an extension to a school in Glanmire, County Cork. I was working hard on that matter.

There is much concern in Cork about people who are carrying out tremendous work for local communities and organisations under community employment schemes. Has the Minister made a decision in relation to such schemes because there was some unease about it among her officials when I contacted them recently? Has she made any decision regarding the extension of community employment schemes for people who are doing such important voluntary and other types of work in communities?

I congratulate the Minister on the various labour force issues which relate to these subheads. I congratulate her on the strong growth in employment that has been witnessed. It was one of her goals when she took over the Department and there has been a tremendous drop in unemployment figures. As the Minister stated earlier, the Irish unemployment figures are almost half the European average. It is worth noting that point and that the rate is well below 5% while the long-term unemployment rate is 1.7%. The Minister deserves congratulations in this regard.

I also congratulate her on the substantial contributions arising from increased female participation in the workforce. That is merited and I ask her to clarify what additional supports might be put in place to ensure a continued increase in female participation, particularly in terms of the recognised need for child care facilities.

Will the Minister outline the success of the employment action plan and the working visa and working authorisation scheme that she launched? I previously asked if the scheme was user friendly because the old scheme involved much red tape. Is the new system more user friendly or is the new working visa and work authorisation scheme experiencing similar difficulties?

I welcome the establishment of the national training fund. I particularly welcome the Minister's indication that the training will focus on all areas. In view of an earlier comment, it is important to mention the success of the local working groups and local employment service. The allocation in that area has been increased. There is a tremendous increase in the allocation for training networks under subhead K8. I welcome the further range of measures aimed at improving employment opportunities for people with disabilities as enshrined in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness.

I will try to clear up some of the misunderstandings with regard to general labour market issues and training. Without making a partisan point on behalf of the Government, it is a fact that since the Government took office the live register has been reduced by over 102,000 people. Any Government which did not respond to the changes occurring in that environment would be very foolish.

We have sought to reposition some of our policies in relation to training. Substantially more money is being provided for training the employed. As I said earlier, if we want to maintain our success and level of employment, the challenge is to ensure that companies remain competitive and move up the value chain in many instances. This requires a huge change from the workforce. An enormous effort must be made at company level to ensure that employees are ready for that type of change and can cope with it. Nothing can happen without people. We live in a knowledge based environment where knowledge and ideas and their conversion into products and services is the critical issue. It is much more important than natural resources. It is about brainware and the capacity of individuals.

Skillsnet was kick-started by the Government but it is very much a training programme involving employers and the trade union movement. Approximately 2,500 companies are now involved in that training initiative although it was only launched a year ago. Enormous benefits are being reaped from it. Companies in the same sector come together in a type of network and they can learn much from each other about best practice and how to develop appropriate training policies for their needs.

This year there will be 25,000 apprentices. This is an incredible increase on the level a couple of years ago. This relates to training for the employed rather than training of the unemployed. Given the way funds are allocated in the Estimates there may be some misunderstanding. However, the challenge in relation to apprentices moving from one stage to the next is to ensure that the education resource is adequate. There were some difficulties but they are being resolved to enable people to move speedily from one part of an apprenticeship to the next stage with a view to completion and there is not a big gap. Many people might be tempted in that kind of environment to take a job because of the buoyancy in the economy. It is important that our apprentices remain in apprenticeship and complete them as quickly as possible. We have resolved most of the delays in moving from one to another with the Department of Education and Science.

Community employment will be reduced. There used to be one community employment place for every six long-term unemployed people. Now we have one for one, which is an incredible ratio. The Government has agreed to reduce the figure from 40,000 in 1998 to 28,000 over the next couple of years.

I accept Deputy Flynn's view that many worthwhile activities are supported by community employment, like caretakers, teaching assistants, school secretaries and many voluntary bodies. They would not be able to function in the absence of community employment. However, they are issues for other Departments, not for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I intend to conclude discussions with other Ministers to ensure that the worthwhile activities we all want to see continue on a permanent footing, but are not necessarily dependent on any decisions that may be made from a Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment point of view.

My job and that of my Department is to ensure that we have a sufficient number of people for the jobs that are being created. The Chairman said we have had to make some radical decisions on some of these issues to ensure that we are able to fill the emerging jobs being created and sustain our economic growth. We must also ensure there are enough training places and that there is a sufficient emphasis on the training of the employed and the unemployed. Some of the issues around that are changing.

My attitude to many of these issues is flexibility. It is not possible to have hard and fast rules devised at the top that apply in an inappropriate way to individuals. That is why we have allowed for flexibility in relation to the jobs initiative and to much of the community employment activity. New guidelines have been published for the jobs initiative, which was due to end after three years at the end of December. It was then extended by six months. I do not want to see anybody return to the live register or to claiming the dole. That would not be sensible, notwithstanding what criteria might have been appropriate as a result of what the consultants recommended.

Flexibility has been introduced. The onus is on FÁS to either find a training place or a job for any individual who is going to complete their jobs initiative at the end of June. That is the right strategy because I have encountered many people who have been on various support programmes. The concept of these programmes is to help them progress to the labour market. That is why we introduced the concept of community employment when the market was not producing a sufficient number of jobs and we had to deal with big issues, such as high unemployment at a rate of 17%, and mass emigration.

Many of the policies put in place in very different circumstances are still with us. If we are keeping them we must refocus them because it would not make sense to have the same strategies when unemployment was at a rate of 17% and we were losing 6% of the population in net terms through emigration. We now have 1,000 people a week coming to live in Ireland legally. Half of them are Irish returning home, a further 30% are other Europeans coming to work here while the remainder are from further afield.

In view of the fact that there are serious labour shortages in many sectors, the Government has decided to introduce the concept of a working visa. Wherever there is a need which we cannot fill from our own resources we must bring in people from other countries, for example, in IT, nursing, the building professions, such as engineering, architecture and planning. I understand technicians are also required. In view of other matters that have arisen in the last few weeks, I have not had the opportunity to apply my mind fully to this and take advice. I intend to do it quickly.

The working visa will be granted to individuals for a two year period. It is renewable. When individuals arrive they do not have to stay with the company who initially employs them because that would be unreasonable and impossible to police. We must take that kind of measure because of developments. Labour force growth is falling from a high of 4% to approximately 2%, so it must be supplemented from outside.

I continue to be concerned that people in Ireland continue to be unemployed. My first priority is to seek to give them the skills, in so far as I can through Government agencies and policies. Second, we want to see more women re-enter the workforce. Although women under the age of 35 years have the same participation rate as other northern European countries, which traditionally have had the highest levels of female participation in the labour market, the participation rate of men and women over the age of 45 and 55 years is quite low.

Some of the budgetary decisions on the separation of individuals for tax purposes were made with the view to encouraging greater labour force participation. Many married women returning to work immediately hit the top rate of tax and many of them said it was not worth their while. The budget has encouraged some of them to return to the workforce, but we need to go further. Some of them need to be equipped with the skills that are required for the emerging jobs.

I am examining a host of initiatives to deal with the return of older people to the labour force. Many tasks could be done if we had measures in place to encourage those who are retired to return to work. Perhaps many of the public servants who left the workforce in a different era might return, but there are many obstacles militating against women returning to the public service. They must repay their gratuity and start at the bottom of the scale. I do not suggest this will solve all the problems but I have outlined issues we could address. The priority is to equip Irish people as far as possible but to take other measures where deficiencies exist.

There have been difficulties within the Department with the work permit regime because of the volume of applications. There has been a huge percentage increase in the last year or two. I understand that 95% or 96% of all applications for work permits have been granted. The Department intends to look at how the work permit system is processed. Perhaps the form could be changed to put the onus on the employer to certify certain things rather than an application being made followed by an onus on the public servants to establish certain facts, such as that somebody will be paid the minimum wage. If we were to change the onus of proof in terms of the application we could speed things up.

Companies wonder why it takes a couple of weeks to make a decision. Some of it has to do with personnel problems, which are being addressed, but much of it has to do with the staff being satisfied that nobody will be discriminated against or exploited. In the case of a domestic arrangement, where an individual has perhaps been brought in from the Philippines, I want to be certain that such a person will not be exploited because they have very little by way of protection. They are aliens in this country and may not know anybody. They are very dependent on the family employing them and once the permit has been granted it is very difficult for the Department to police it. The Department must, therefore, satisfy itself that there are no problems. Some of this takes longer than one would wish, but many of the public servants are working very hard on it.

Different definitions can apply to what is meant by the social economy. It could be argued that it is that part of the economy where worthwhile activity can be done, but it cannot be done commercially. That is a worthy definition, but it is more of a wealth rather than an enterprise related issue. Our concept of it, and for which we have sought support, is that there are many activities that take time to become commercial and that no financial institution would support for obvious reasons. The idea that IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland or even the enterprise boards would support it is not real.

The social economy model we have been promoting has been agreed to by the social partners. It had its genesis in the voluntary pillar in the social partnership. We have been trying to proceed in a meaningful way to help to establish activities in communities, especially in disadvantaged communities, that could not otherwise happen and, over time, to seek to make them as commercial as possible. Otherwise we will get into an area of activity that will never end.

Deputy Broughan referred to a garden centre that is making money. If it is making money it does not need State support. The Deputy said it was making money because it is being subsidised.

It works under contract to the local authority.

I do not want to discuss the specific case of this garden centre. However, if we decide to subsidise a particular garden centre, is that fair on the garden centre down the road which happens to be a commercial undertaking? We must be responsible in terms of how we deal with this issue.

Would it be possible to apply social economy criteria to the public service, national and local? Surely it is possible to do so.

Is the Deputy stating that the public service is not commercial?

Of course it is not commercial. However, there are many things which are not commercial. For example, public transport in Dublin is not commercial and we subsidise it. I have a strong belief in the market but the market is not perfect and certain things must be subsidised. If disadvantaged and less well off people are to be able to avail of services, a number of those services must be subsidised. If that was not the case, my Department would be seeking fees and appropriations-in-aid and we would not be seeking £800 million from the taxpayer.

I am merely stating that the Department drew up these criteria which could, in turn, be applied to the Department.

Is the Deputy stating that we should make the Department commercial?

The Deputy's party is frequently criticising my Department for charging for work permits, for example. We seek to make activities commercial; we cannot permit cross-subsidisation. The Department attempts to be commercial in various areas. For example, the Companies Office and other offices and sections charge for services. However, we want to support industry and the training of the unemployed and people with disabilities. We are assuming responsibility for the training of people with disabilities. I cannot accept the concept that anything that is worthwhile in the community but cannot be supplied commercially should be supplied through the social economy. That would not be fair or appropriate.

Some of the projects in which previous Governments became involved have led us to our current position. What we must do is be reasonable and realistic. There may be areas in the health services, the education system, the environment or wherever that are worthwhile. However, the time may have come to clearly state what we are trying to achieve. I have responsibility for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and I do not have the remit to run the entire country and everything good in it.

With regard to motor insurance, a recommendation has been made by the motor insurance consultancy group that we should develop the concept of quantum damages under which a board would be established to decide on cases of personal injuries, the quantum of the damages, without dealing with issues such as liability. That is a controversial route to take. Deputy Rabbitte, as Minister of State with responsibility for this area in the previous Administration, considered this matter, as have many others.

The establishment of such a board could lead to huge improvements because, as far as I understand it, a tiny percentage of cases are actually fought out on the issue of liability. What happens is that people initiate court proceedings, a large percentage of cases are settled before they come to court and very few proceed to the stage of deciding where the liability rests. If we could separate those issues we could bring greater speed and efficiency to the system and substantially perhaps reduce the cost of motor insurance. That cost is linked to the risks involved and the number of claims made in Ireland is substantially higher than elsewhere. I have not seen recent reports but one made a number of years ago indicated that there were nine times more claims for whiplash in the Republic than in Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom. Everyone is aware of the problem. In seeking to address it we can perhaps change some of the procedures and mechanisms in order to improve the situation. However, if citizens are intent on making a higher number of claims than elsewhere, they will be obliged to pay higher insurance premia.

The scheme to which Deputy Lenihan referred is a matter for the Departments of Tourism, Sport and Recreation and the Environment and Local Government. My Department has not responsibility in that area.

The director general of FÁS, Dr. Lynch, is moving on. His term of office was drawing to a close and he had the right to have his contract renewed. However, he has chosen to become chairman of CIE. I believe Dr. Lynch is leaving in the autumn and a process is under way to select his successor. That is a matter for the board, it is not my concern. The board has advertised the appointment. I understand that headhunters have been recruited and they will process the applications and put forward a certain number of names. A sub-committee of the board will interview the individuals put forward by the recruitment company and the board will make the final decision on who to appoint.

I have had experience in dealing with two other boards during my term of office. The first is Enterprise Ireland, where a similar process was put in place, and the other is IDA Ireland which had to replace Kieran McGowan when he resigned. In these instances, the making of new appointments was entirely a matter for the boards in question. My only desire is that the best candidate will be appointed to the position of director general of FÁS. That is what is most important both for the organisation and for the country. It is appropriate that the board, not the Minister, should make the decision. The Minister should not meddle or seek to influence in any way any decision that might be made in relation to the next director general of FÁS.

Chairman, may I discuss a matter with——

I cannot establish a precedent by allowing people to make further contributions in respect of particular subheads following the Minister's reply.

The Minister stated that 95% of the work permits applied for in this country are granted. How many people applied for these permits?

Last year we granted approximately 6,000. We are expecting 10,000 applications this year.

How many asylum seekers who have been in Ireland over a year applied for permits?

Over 2,000 asylum seekers qualify to work in Ireland in accordance with the Government decision made last year. FÁS in Tallaght is currently interviewing many of those who are qualified to work. Although only a small number have been interviewed, the results are very interesting because there are a number of well qualified people who came here for economic reasons. The vast majority of those interviewed by FÁS in Tallaght - it may be interesting for the committee to meet these people and talk to them - are termed as being "job ready now" and are being placed in employment. That is very encouraging.

How many of the 2,000 asylum seekers qualified to work here have applied for work permits?

I understand that over 2,000 are entitled to work as a result of the decision made last year. I would not know if these people are working but they are entitled to work and, therefore, all they need do is find a job. They have all received certificates which indicate that they are entitled to work. The only way to discover whether they are working is to consult the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs to see if they are still in receipt of welfare payments. I do not have such information in my possession.

Are subheads K to M agreed? Agreed. We will now proceed to subheads N to Q which deal with enterprise competitiveness.

I note that the Industrial Relations Bill, which has been passed by the Seanad, will soon be enacted. Does the Minister envisage increased expenditure in the area of trade union recognition? She appears to have accepted the principle behind the Labour Party's Bill in that regard. Does she believe trade union membership will increase when the Industrial Relations Bill becomes law?

A recent report in The Economist states that, just like the Millennium Dome in London, EXPO 2000 in Hanover has been somewhat of a disaster and that the German Chancellor was disappointed about the low level of attendance. What is the position vis-à-vis Ireland’s exhibit there?

Are there any further questions on subheads N to Q? No? I wish to put a number of questions to the Tánaiste. The committee has devoted a great deal of time to discussing the groceries order. It is an area where we believe there is competition in the marketplace and that is proven and has been seen to exist. It has been suggested by officials of your Department that the groceries order is understood to have been a success in dealing with relevant issues and also in ensuring competition in the marketplace. I am aware that there are a number of reports which your Department is considering and perhaps you would indicate the current position in that regard. Furthermore, what is the position with another decision the committee took regarding capping the size of retail stores? We believed it was important to do so to protect competition on a regional basis and for many other reasons published in our reports which were laid before the House.

Thank you, Chairman. Deputy Broughan asked about the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Bill. That has passed all Stages in the Seanad and it will be in the Dáil in the next session. I do not know if it will increase trade union membership. As the Deputy knows, of the 1.7 million people in the workforce, about 500,000 belong to trade unions, and a large proportion of those are in the public sector. The number of private sector workers who belong to a trade union is relatively small. Perhaps trade unions, like political parties, are going through a phase in their development. Certainly the purpose of the Bill was to put in place the outcome of the high level discussions, which is to have a mechanism that is reasonable and fair to vulnerable groups of workers and, at the same time, is practical and maintains the basic ethos of industrial relations in Ireland, which is the voluntary approach.

Regarding the world exhibition in Hanover, the Irish facility is being opened next week. The national day will take place and the President and the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, are attending. A huge national effort has been made to have a very impressive and appropriate facility at Hanover. We did not participate in the previous one two years ago in Portugal and we were strongly criticised by our Portuguese counterparts. However, the value of these exhibitions is questionable, as the Deputy knows. The German Government made a very special request of the Taoiseach and the Irish Government that we would participate and we felt we should and we have done so enthusiastically. It is expensive not just in terms of money but also in terms of many people being tied up in making all the logistical arrangements. It will run for a number of months. Perhaps members of the committee may get an opportunity to visit the Irish facility in Hanover. If they wish to do that, I am sure we will be able to make arrangements.

On the groceries order and capping the size of supermarkets, clearly what we want to see in Ireland are sustainable and viable communities, in towns and cities especially. Some of the issues concerning the scale and size of supermarkets have environmental and traffic implications. We must ensure that we marry the different interests. I do not want to see just one or two dominant players in the market and nothing else. Smaller shops provide a host of services. They are often more convenient and clearly people are prepared to pay more for convenience. No decision has been made on the groceries order. Any decision made will be a Government decision having regard to some of these issues.

However, there are many issues which are not protected by an order. Vegetables, meat, clothing and textiles are not protected, yet there are many shops selling those products which survive well and provide outstanding service and competition. We must examine all the issues surrounding this matter. My overwhelming concern would be to ensure that consumers get good choice and value for money at sensitive and sensible prices. That is the overriding concern. Any decision relating to the groceries order is a matter for another occasion. I have not come to any conclusions. As members know, the report recommended change and I suppose most people who have looked at the situation, with the exception of the committee, have recommended change in this area.

What is the Minister doing about the cost——

I will put this point to members. If they go to their supermarket at the weekend before it closes, they will see a great deal of meat which will be selling at a very low price so as not to waste it. That cannot be done with bread or milk, for example, because they are covered by the groceries order. There are issues around that. Any decision will be made on the basis of consultation with the effective bodies and no decision has been made to change it one way or the other.

ActingChairman

Thank you, Minister. We have great expertise on this committee.

I am aware of that.

ActingChairman

Without his knowledge, I invite you, if you are ever in Ballymote, to visit one of the best supermarkets in the west. He will give you a tour.

Does Deputy Perry sell alcohol there? He does not have to buy a licence, then?

No, I have a licence.

He is lucky, and he does not even drink.

The Minister would be very welcome to Ballymote.

I am well aware of Deputy Perry's commercial and political interests.

I was surprised to hear your comments, Minister, about purchasing meat late on a Friday and Saturday. That does not happen in any of the supermarkets in which I shop. Not only that, they are also open on a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

It happens where I shop, Chairman.

Perhaps you might let me know the store. On a serious note, it is important that I relay to you that the committee has put in a huge amount of work, consultation and discussion with various interest groups. As you know, we are widely politically represented. There is unanimous agreement between Independent, Progressive Democrat, Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil Deputies.

I did not share in the ethos of which the Chairman speaks because I believed it was important that people declared their interests in retailing or whatever. I share some of the Minister's gut instincts. I thought competition was a core value of her party. In the Tipperary by-election, people in a certain town complained that the one medium sized supermarket there had increased the price of bread by 6p or 7p in recent months whereas, in Clonmel, there was significant competition between all the major multiples operating in the town. I thought prices were lower there. I do not share in this consensus. I believe in competition wherever it leads.

From the point of view of price competitiveness, independent assessments which compare larger and smaller stores have shown that smaller stores are not more expensive. That point must be made. Smaller supermarkets provide an invaluable service throughout the regions. People automatically think that being smaller means that prices are cheaper in the large multiples. That is not the case because there are huge cost factors. The Minister said that fruit, vegetables and fresh meat are not incorporated in the order and that is a fact, but they are high margin products. There is a good return on fruit, vegetables and fresh meat, and it is considerably higher than on other items in the regular grocery market. On the issue of cheap bread, every supermarket in the country, be it a large multiple or a simple shop, which has its own label has found that it has sold considerably less of it than the brand leader.

The argument has been proved that competitive shopping exists in small shops. Just because one is large does not necessarily mean one is cheaper. That argument does not stand up and one must be careful about that. Furthermore, smaller shops have created £1 billion in investment since 1987 in smaller towns and regions. It is not that we are afraid of competition. It is unfair trading, below cost selling and hello money which are everyone's major fears.

And that is unacceptable.

As the Minister knows, one cannot sell below the cost of production and continue to exist. The short-term gain and benefit of below cost selling will be lost by the abolition of competition in the marketplace.

All these arguments were made when Ryanair came into the market and it did not have that effect.

Deputy O'Flynn wishes to contribute. I will call him and then the Minister.

On a different matter about which the Minister spoke, namely, the participation in the world exhibition in Hanover, I did not know with which Department to raise this but I understand the pavilion has cost substantial money to develop. What will we do with the pavilion when the exhibition is over? I suggest we offer it to——

We are bringing it home, if Deputy O'Flynn would like to buy it.

I thought some local authority might be interested in it.

Much interest has been expressed. We are looking at the options but we intend to bring it home.

And use it?

Or dispose of it?

Clearly we want to get as much as we can for it. There is much commercial interest in it. To follow Deputy Broughan's point, I would have to——

I am glad it is coming home because I know it cost a substantial sum to develop. Would I be safe in going to see the exhibition during the summer? I would have a nice, relaxed time.

I do not know. I hope the Deputy is safer than I was when I went away last summer.

(Interruptions.)

I am taking my two colleagues with me.

I am happy Deputy O'Flynn will be as safe abroad as he is Cork.

Are subheads N to Q agreed? Agreed. We will take subheads R, S and T together.

On health and safety, we still have a Labour health and safety Bill. The Minister indicated that there will be more resources available for the health and safety area and I welcome that. However, the number of fatalities in the construction industry is scandalous. I remember meeting crane operators who were in dispute last year and they told us they were sent out to high positions in winds of up to 40 miles an hour. The Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, referred to the number of deaths on farms which is also outrageous. What can be done to keep fatalities and injuries to a minimum, particularly in the construction industry?

Although I have not had many dealings with the Health and Safety Authority, I had one this week to which it responded positively. It dealt with the matter on the same day. Has the authority regard to work carried out by the local authority contractors? Two departments within Cork Corporation were not co-operating with each other and, as a result, a street and a terrace of houses on which building work was being carried out was left in an unsafe condition. Does the Health and Safety Authority, in monitoring construction sites, focus in on local authorities? Does it have the same degree of interest in local authority developments as it has in private developments?

On subhead R - Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs - I am interested in the Minister's views on inflation. Does she envisage any further powers or resources being given to the director? There is the old theory that inflation is good for business. There is a considerable weight of evidence, both anecdotal and empiric, that shopkeepers, hairdressers and so on are opportunistically taking an extra margin at the expense of the consumer and the wider society in terms of driving up the inflation figures. It is spreading through almost every area of activity. Hairdressers blame the introduction of the minimum wage. We know it is nonsense. The price increases are extraordinary.

ActingChairman

I must declare an interest. They are a decent bunch.

I receive complaints from constituents that, on basic items such as marmalade, 40p or 50p extra is being added on to the price. It is opportunistic, profit taking and increasing margins at the expense of the consumer. Is there an action plan so that the Director of Consumer Affairs can be more aggressive in tackling this?

As regards the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs, one of the issues the Government will consider in light of the recent increases in inflation is additional resources for that office. We need to play a part in heightening consumer awareness. Unfortunately consumers are not as discerning as they should be. In the housing market, for example, auctioneers and lawyers tend to charge a standard rate for conveyancing or for the sale of a property. The rate has remained unchanged for many years and even though the cost of properties has increased tenfold in some cases, clearly the work involved has not risen accordingly, the percentage remains the same. I would like to see more consumers shop around and do deals.

The same applies to the price of drink. The Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs did a survey. I do not have it with me but in the Dublin area the price of a pint ranged from what was called the lower end of the bar market from £2.10 to the higher end in the lounge market of £2.85. That is a difference of 75p. Apparently bottled stout varied even more, from £1.58 to £2.90, a difference of £1.32. The variations are incredible. That went across all drinks, spirits, soft drinks and so on. It indicates that in an environment where some people have a lot of money they are not as discerning as they should be. We all know who the gainers are but the big losers are those at the bottom whose disposable incomes are low, those on fixed incomes, fixed pensions and welfare. This is among the issues the Government will examine next week in the context of the new measures that have been flagged. The director is anxious to be involved in consumer awareness programmes, perhaps a high profile consumer awareness campaign that might make people more vigilant because, at the end of the day, the consumer is the one with power, the consumer decides.

The Health and Safety Authority has equal responsibilities for what Deputy O'Flynn called local authority developments as well as private sector development. I am dismayed at the increase in the number of fatalities and serious accidents on building sites and elsewhere. Responsibility lies with both employers and employees. We are responsible, to a large extent, for our own safety. As employees we need to be more vigilant. If employers do not have appropriate health and safety mechanisms in place, there is an onus on employees to make that an issue. The authority has been given substantially more resources recently and on 18 June the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, announced 25 more posts and an allocation of an additional £500,000 for an awareness campaign to raise awareness among employees of health and safety issues.

The chairman of the Health and Safety Authority recently commissioned an independent review of the operation of the authority and a preliminary interim report was given to it recently. There are issues raised in that report which must be seriously addressed by the authority, the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, and the other bodies involved. I became aware of the report on a television programme. As Deputies know, the authority is a tripartite board representing the trade union movement, employers and Government. There are issues that the board must address as a result of the independent analysis which it had carried out. I welcome its decision to do that.

As regards inflation and the practice of adding on 20p or 30p here and there, why not rigidly impose the displaying of prices? A housewife who is shopping does not like to walk out when she realises the cost of the items in the basket. Prices should be publicly displayed on all shop windows, supermarkets, public houses and lounge bars as at the petrol filling stations. Given that petrol prices are quoted per litre people are being taken in.

There is a requirement that pubs display prices and that is being enforced by the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt. The question is whether it is realistic - Deputy Perry would know more about this - in a typical shop given the range of items sold. A very large window would be needed to display all the prices.

ActingChairman

Are subheads R to T agreed? Agreed. We now come to subheads U to Y which cover Other Services.

In regard to subhead X1 - Commissions, Committees and Special Inquiries - I presume there was a large increase in this area and that it includes the myriad inquiries which the Department is conducting into Ansbacher related matters and other issues of offshore illegal movements of money, etc. What is the current update? There are rumours after the nervous times in this Dáil that it still might terminate the Government earlier rather than later. What is the position? On the inflation issue has the Minister set up an early warning system such as Y2K in relation to the euro?

ActingChairman

Is this on subhead Y?

Yes, it is generally related to the brief. Given that the Minister may not be in Government in February in 2002 or may be in a different Government with different colleagues, which is possible, and with a Green Tánaiste or a Fine Gael Tánaiste——

That is hoping.

When decimalisation was introduced it was said there were massive rip offs. In relation to visa cards we are all used to getting receipts and statements with the amount translated into euros but most of us, unless we are day traders, are not using the euro in our minds. Will it not be the case that where prices are not clearly indicated in late 2001 or early 2002 the public will be ripped off in a massive way when we get the euro in our pockets in February 2002? Has the Minister any long-term plans to ensure she or her successor will not be caught napping at that time?

Unfortunately I do not get too much time to nap, although I could do with a little nap now and again. Essentially the issues raised by the Deputy about the euro are matters for the Minister for Finance. The Director of Consumer Affairs has had a central role in relation to many of these issues and is doing an excellent job. It will be much easier when the euro is introduced. One of the issues for the Government is the cost of the changeover in relation to welfare payments, fees charged and so on. Where something does not exactly equal a precise compact amount the question is whether to move up or move down. Without breaching Cabinet confidentiality it has been agreed to move up. Therefore, there is a cost associated with that move up in terms of welfare related issues. It will be much easier when the euro is in on a cash basis. Clearly there is much confusion among consumers when they see the punt and the euro on menus and on receipts generally. I am old enough, as is Deputy Broughan, to remember when we——

On that point after the euro is introduced, will the Government ensure the punt prices are shown as well so that we can directly compare prices?

I do not know if consideration has been given to that. I thought the Deputy meant if we could ensure that the punt remained but, of course, we could not. I am old enough to remember, as is Deputy Broughan, because we went to school at the same time in Clondalkin, the changeover to the new money. For many years after, and even still, I meet people who refer to the shilling and so on. We have to ensure that consumers are not penalised or exploited in that environment.

The AIB inquiry has just been completed. I got the report on 1 June. I had some meetings recently with the legal team, the Attorney General's Office and the Chief State Solicitor and counsels on the decisions that have to be made in relation to that matter. Hopefully, decisions will be made soon. Obviously the subhead covers the company law review group, mergers, the joint labour committees, the teleworking action group, personal injuries to a review on public safety. I put a group in place recently because there are huge gaps in the way the State deals with issues to do with public safety. Line Departments deal with specific aspects but there is a big grey area for which nobody has responsibility. The former President of Dublin City University is chairing that group which will report fairly soon. That subhead covers many of those issues.

In relation to the actual inquiries about which Deputy Broughan is concerned, some have concluded, such as the Ansbacher inquiry and it has gone to the inspectors. The same applies to the inquiry on the National Irish Bank financial services which is before the inspectors. Those that remain to be concluded are College Trustees and Kentford Securities, both of which I hope will be concluded soon, Celtic Helicopters is ongoing, Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) is ongoing and Hamilton Ross will be concluded soon. Dunnes Stores (Ireland) and Dunnes Stores, Ilac Centre, are challenging as they have done for quite some time. I appointed the officer on 22 July 1998 and it is being challenged legally. That inquiry has not commenced because of that.

In relation to the changeover I wish to raise with the Minister the commissions and charges for changing currency. Last week when I was travelling I was charged £15 for a few lira, which is outrageous. Will this be monitored after the changeover?

That seems excessive. There have been substantial reductions in the charges but they are still excessive. The Director of Consumer Affairs has made some decisions in relation to this matter. Off the top of my head I cannot remember where we are at but I will communicate with the Deputy.

Can they charge?

Obviously, where there is just the one currency they cannot charge as there will not be a changeover. I do not know whether the banks and financial institutions will decide to levy different charges. There will be a single currency in the euro zone. Greece is now coming into the euro zone so that the vast majority of countries are in and more will join. The issue of charges does not arise in terms of conversion because there will not be a conversion.

Will there be a single currency all over? Has there been some discussion about that?

In other words, what we have here can be used in the shops in France. There are issues around cheques and clearing houses and so on but the cash will be the same throughout the Union in the euro currency area but not in the United Kingdom or Northern Ireland.

Are subheads U to Y agreed? Agreed. That concludes our discussion of the subheads. Does the Tánaiste wish to come back in at this stage?

I thank the committee not just for dealing with the Estimates in an efficient and fair manner but also for the ongoing relationship it maintains with my Department, the Ministers of State, Deputies Kitt and Treacy, and the officials. I thank the Ministers of State, Deputy Kitt and Deputy Treacy, for the outstanding work they do as part of a team in the Department with myself and other members of the Government. I thank the officials, particularly those who prepared this very large brief for me - members can imagine the length of time it took to do that - and all the documentation for the committee members. I very much appreciate it. It is a large Department but it is very effective and enterprising, which it should be. I look forward to remaining in the Department as its Minister until the election in June 2002 to ensure that——

Is that a definite date?

We might all say a prayer to that effect.

We will start organising around that date.

We might ask Taoisigh and judges not to talk on The Last Word.

That concludes the discussion on the Estimates. I thank the Tánaiste for her participation in today's consideration of the Estimates. I also thank her officials who briefed us on the Estimates and, as the Tánaiste said, throughout the year. We have done a tremendous job this morning and I pay tribute to the members of the committee who participated in the discussion on Vote 34. It is a Vote which is just short of £1 billion gross and a net of £835 million, so it is quite a large Estimate. I thank all the members of the committee, especially the spokespersons, for their helpful contributions. As the Copyright Bill is before the Dáil and other business of the House coincides with this meeting other members of the committee who would normally be here were unable to attend.

Before we go I wish everyone who is participating in the Tipperary South by-election well and we will wait with anxiety for the result which will probably be known around midday tomorrow.

Top
Share